Next meeting: 25th March

[Duncan Roe]

Hi everyone,

The next meeting is 2 weeks from today. I've updated https://mlug-au.org,
but here's the URL for the online meeting anyway: https://meet.jit.si/mlug-au

We have yet to schedule any talks: does anyone have something they'd like to
share?

Cheers ... Duncan.

[Duncan Roe]

Missed an important detail:

Do put your name on the attendance list (on the website) if you'd like to have
an in-person meeting again this month. We only need 4 names, mine's there
already,

[Duncan Roe]

Hi everyone,

We have 4 names on the list now, so I have booked the GNH for 25th March.

@Clinton - would you like to give us a preview of your Everything Open
presentation on that day?

Otherwise we have yet to schedule any talks - anyone?

Cheers ... Duncan.

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 06:01:04PM -0700, Duncan Roe wrote:
> Missed an important detail:
>
> Do put your name on the attendance list (on the website) if you'd like to
> have an in-person meeting again this month. We only need 4 names,
> mine's there already,

[Duncan Roe]

Hi Everyone,

We will be at the GNH - there are 5 coming so far.

And we now have a talk! Clinton will be telling us about the synchroton.

We can accommodate 2 talks, if anyone else has something they'd
like to share.

Cheers ... Duncan.

[Pool Master]

Can anyone who is interested gather up all modern info they have on the Linux O/S Laptop distributors based in AU and bring the info to the meet or email it to Duncan.

Only new Laptops with Linux O/S pre-installed as a factory setting and any laptops that have another OS installed which allows for Dual Boot of a Linux O/S, ***DO NOT QUALIFY***.

Here is some info I have researched so far:

https://au.starlabs.systems/products/starfighter?variant=43623053164798 (limited info on the specs is provided on the page)

https://frame.work/au/en/products/laptop-13-gen-intel/configuration/new (limited info on the specs is provided on the page, modular builds, HQ in USA)

https://www.techbuy.com.au/p/529583/NOTEBOOKS_17_SCREEN/MSI/Stealth_17Studio_A13VI-019AU.asp

https://www.kfocus.org (has the best Linux Laptops with KUBUNTU & Nvidia RTX 4090 on the market but is based in USA)

MSI Stealth Studio (eg.Studio 18) is another high-end Laptop that supports Linux O/S as a factory setting but in AU is only sold with WIN 11 O/S because AU is not like the nordic countries which fully support Linux with many distributors.

I am looking for i9 CPU and Nvidia RTX 4090 GPU Laptop which is highly necessary to work with AI models and Training the Models but I dont want any other O/S other than KUbuntu or Ubuntu.

Thanks

Pool Master

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[zak martell]

I would imagine most Linux users don’t not use anywhere near such power on a laptop, and if they did the battery would be in the 1-2 hour range. It would also be bulky

A RTX 4090 on a laptop is much weaker than one on a desktop. I work in VR, and can’t imagine for that let alone AI. 

You should likely look to have a simple laptop and just run the processing “remotely” from another machine than is a powerful desktop. 

Linux users are masters of remote pcs 😂

I do have a framework 13, which is cool and upgradable(I put a 7840u and 64gb ram), but the gpu is not at that spec. 

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[Pool Master]

Good info Zak,

Its not absolutely necessary to have a Laptop form factor, I could go with a desktop but wouldnt know where to start.

Building one myself would be easy but I need to know which components eg. motherboard I need etc.

Basically something that has a RTX 4090 in it and does not sound like a lawn mower when running (has decent cooling).

The reason why the kfocus laptop is noteworthy is because the Linux O/S is preloaded by the distributor and they garuantee all the correct drivers are installed for all the hardware components installed etc

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[oldherl]

If you have never built a PC, you could use some online services like https://www.centrecom.com.au/buildpc or https://www.aftershockpc.com.au

Basically you need the CPU socket and the motherboard to be matched, and the RAM type (DDR4 or DDR5) to be matched with the motherboard. Power supply needs to be sufficient for your power consumption.

Case should be large enough to contain the motherboard and video card.

And FYI, Avast is caught to be selling user data, https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-ftc-proposes-order-banning-avast-selling-browsing-data-ads-2024-02-22/

In the 2000s, I used to use Avast antivirus for scanning the USB drives before passing them to my family's Windows computer because Avast was the only antivirus with Linux support.

I haven't been using it for 10+ years but I still feel sad when reading about it.

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[Duncan Roe]

Hi Pool,

On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 06:37:08PM +1100, oldherl wrote:
> If you have never built a PC, you could use some online services like
> https://www.centrecom.com.au/buildpc or https://www.aftershockpc.com.au
>
> Basically you need the CPU socket and the motherboard to be matched, and
> the RAM type (DDR4 or DDR5) to be matched with the motherboard. Power
> supply needs to be sufficient for your power consumption.
> Case should be large enough to contain the motherboard and video card.

You need to be really careful choosing RAM. Just because a RAM thingy is the
right DDR doesn't mean it will work optimally or at all. You should consult the
motherboard manufacturer's website.

I had this problem building my current system. I bought 4 32GB sticks for a
total 128GB in the 4 slots abailable. But I discovered the mobo doesn't support
that configuration. It only supports 2 of these sticks max. And the run slower
that 4x16GB (of a particular model) which is what I ended up buying.

[SNIP]

Cheers ... Duncan.

[Howard Joseph]

G'day Pool

When I was looking to buy a a linux laptop a few years ago, I found this mob:

https://www.linuxnow.com.au/nsintro.html

They list current available laptops and their compatibility with linux and will supply, customise and build the laptop of your choice, with the distro of your choice. 

I found the service to be prompt, and very friendly. I asked for vmware to be included, as I needed some windows only progammes as well. He built 2 windows vm's to dual boot with the system. 

Highly recommended 

All the Best 

Howard 

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation
with the average voter."- Winston Churchill

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[Pool Master]

Thanks for the info oldher,

I have built WIN PCs before and understand most of what you recommended but what I wasnt too sure about is which motherboard would be best suited for Linux or alternatively does Linux support 100% a particular branded modern motherboarded better than most other brands. Someone might say all modern motherboards support Linux but I dont want to have driver issues eg. with audio not functioning correctly etc.

As for Anti-Virus Checkers that wouldnt surprise me. I treat just about every subscription based software as spyware (data collecting at minimum), but thats just me. There was a previous case with a VPN company caught selling user's data also. Apparently the culprit just went on to work for another VPN company. Not sure if this is a myth.

Virus-free.www.avast.com

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[Pool Master]

Thanks for the info Howard.

Will definately look into it.

I prefer to buy/build a modern Linux (Laptop form factor) if I know everything will be 100% bug free and it wont be noisy during operation (it must have some decent cooling).

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[Pool Master]

Thank for the info Duncan,

I agree about compatibility. Which is one of the reasons why I prefer a Laptop form factor that already has a proven track record with everything being compatible.

Basically do I want to spend time on research or just get a more expensive system that is proven to work bug-free already.

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[Pool Master]

Howard I forgot to mention, my research notes show that LinuxNow dont sell any Laptops with RTX 4090.

The highest GPU they sell is RTX 4080.

Which is why I excluded it from listing it in my first help email.

But if I needed just a Linux Laptop for usual computer functions, I would definitely consider LinuxNow.

Also for Zak, for now I wont really be training LLMs etc or anything that needs a desktop GPU or an online service of hiring GPUs but rather basic training locally such as using SD XL or SD 3.0 models to study and learn a batch of images and then create a LoRA (a style of those images) so the images (or that style that has been trained) can be generated artificially with text prompts through A1111 etc.

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On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 at 12:18, Howard Joseph <howard.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Cameron]

Hi Pool Master,

Just FYI a laptop 4090 is in no way similar to a desktop 4090 video card.

- A laptop 4090 is closer to a very weak desktop 4080 video card running at half power.

https://www.techspot.com/review/2625-nvidia-rtx-4090-laptop-vs-desktop-gpu/

Same goes for desktop and laptop i9 CPU vs desktop i9 CPU, they're even more vastly different in number of cores, cache, raw GHz, CPU architecture and power.

Also running a laptop with a 4090 at 150W will sound like a leaf blower regardless of how good the cooling is in any laptop - it's just too much heat to dissipate over long periods of time.

- The laptop will start throttling and slowing down after a minute or two, more so if it DOESN'T sound like a leaf blower.

A desktop computer with a big CPU cooler / heatsink will be quieter, and more powerful than a laptop will ever be.

Personally, I'd do a little research and build up a desktop PC (or use a linux friendly company that make desktop PCs that ship to AUS)..

The main thing you'd need to research for linux compatibility are all the chips on the motherboard - wifi, ethernet, sound, USB controllers (should be ok), RGB (why?!).

Cam.

[zak martell]

Adding to Cam’s point, 

You are better to build a desktop, and just remote into it from a nice cool, basic spec, laptop for your “AI” work, or if you can, just tell the app to do the processing on the remote pc. 

I know people carrying around “gaming laptops” and trust me, it’s no fun. They are bulky and heavy, and have terrible battery. 

This is why I never leave home without my 20 hour battery 1.2kg MacBook Air, and when I need heavy processing, I remote into one of many machines with Nvidia 4070s and modern ryzens to do the task, especially since they will still be doing the task even if I close my laptop. 

I know you’re not a fan of Apple, but I’m sure you can find a basic Linux compatible simple laptop. 

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[Pool Master]

Cam thanks for your valuable recommendations.

I was aware that Laptop GPUs are not the same as Desktop GPUs. Zak also reminded me of this.

Im thinking now that I should just go for any branded Laptop with RTX 4080 inside but the one with the best Cooling inside (I think MSI Stealth AI Studio Laptops might have good cooling) because I dislike leaf blowers and one constantly nagging me everytime I power up the system is something I wont look forward to.

The very few RTX 4090 Laptops available are very expensive and I probably dont need one just for training LoRA styles for Stable Diffu.

I will also take a closer look at the LinuxNow website which is selling 2 models of the RTX 4080.

I will do thorough research on building a Linux Desktop after Ive settled down and got some productivity out of the Laptop first. That or because the Laptop is blowing hot air up my arse because the incredible cooling was overhyped in the specs sheet.

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[Pool Master]

Thanks Cam and Zak, remote setup is the way to go.

However initially I will buy a Linux Laptop with good cooling.

After I play around with it for a few months I will then build a Linux Desktop to start doing the heavier processing work for the Laptop.

Any objections to using Kubuntu for the O/S of the 2 systems? Can remote be done with network cables or strictly wireless is the way to go?

I am a Mac fan but cant afford to buy and/or space is limited to have too many systems of varying operating systems.

I used to play Leaderboard Golf on a Monochrome Mactintosh and it had sampled crowd cheering when you putt the ball. Those where the days.

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[Pool Master]

Zak I missed out on last meet but if youre wondering what Linux System I decided that I want check this out.

https://starlabs.systems/pages/starfighter-specification

The 4k screen model will be perfect, it wont be used for gaming and/or viewing movies but for photography and AI image generation etc.

It has an on-board Intel GPU and not a dedidated GPU but everything runs quiet I believe.

Autumn is here but no leaf blower is part of this system. I am waiting for Mid Year sales to potentially save a few hundred off the $5k pricetag.

Yes I have all the cash saved up already. If anyone can think of a better system than the starlabs, let me know, but it must have 4k resolution and not blow leaves when powered up.

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On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 at 13:31, zak martell <zak.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[zak martell]

Hi,

 

I’m still a believer that you could run say LocalAI 

https://localai.io which has a web interface/REST api on home server, and just ZeroTier connect to it as you want to do things from a simple light laptop. It has a docker container as well. 

Our internet these days are so fast, and so plentiful and images are so small in size, you could easily do so. It’s not like you’re trying to send 60fps gaming across the internet. 

I have a AMD Framework Laptop I use for Linux use, think I spent like $2600 on it once I added 64gb ddr5 ram and a nice 2tb ssd. I am not too big into knowing compatibility but I’ve not had any issues. My MacBook is just for work purposes - mostly cause I do apple dev. 

$5k for a laptop sounds like a lot for such basic needs. Also likely you are getting into heavy territory even if you aren’t getting a discrete gpu. 

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[Pool Master]

Thanks for your reply Zak.

Good info to take onboard (excuse the pun).

There is something I havent explained which might give you a better understanding about my choice.

I am sick and tired of these O/S that require you to be online to operate or require all sorts of authentications just to run the computer even if you want to run it for offline purpose.

I am willing to pay this extra amount of cash for a computer which I can run offline without ever having to jump through hoops and run all my LLM or t2i or tts or Photo Editing etc LOCALLY without having to be online EVER.

Ive heard that one of the big companies will soonish start charging a monthly subscription for its future operating systems, meaning you will need an account and need online connections every so often etc. Bascially I dont want to be hand-cuffed everytime I boot up my system.

It is very difficult to find a 4K Laptop Screen system for $2.5k. The system must be a Laptop form factor (so I can use it away from home also) but in future I will consider a Desktop system also that can network with the Laptop and assist with heavy processing, once I find the space for setting one up.

Yes it might be a pain if the user requires to always update to the latest eg.safetensor/checkpoint model versions they have installed LOCALLY etc but Im happy to not always be updating.

This is my case.

I rest my case your honor.

If the prosecutor has anymore suggestions to persuade me to consider otherwise, please speak now before sentencing me to a long imprisonment with Linux pleasure at glorious 4k resolutions.

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[zak martell]

No consumer operating system will ever attempt a subscription model. Business ones and server editions do, but consumer ones never would. Any mention of it is just clickbait. 

“4K” doesn’t determine a screens quality. We are in a world of different types of displays. My 3440x1440 OLED is 1,000,000x better to look at than my 4K IPS monitor. 

I can’t imagine what you need 4K for, to have such multitasking or amount of pixels on screen. Your eyes must be very good :) I am younger, probably youngest in mlug 😂 and set scale to be much higher than 100%. That is likely why 4K is rare, it also takes more power consumption for little gain. 

We are also in a “always on” world. Mac and windows (intel ones) will automatically wake itself up to do system updates in the background so the next time you open it, it’s updated. You don’t need to worry about it. 

How often are you not connected to the internet? 

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[Pool Master]

Thanks for the info.

Some ppl have multiple puters and each one has a particular main role in serving it's master, or the master to slave to, depending on which way you look at it.

This 4k system will not be used to surf the internet, possible once in a blue moon or once an comet passing.

This system will have a password protection during boot but thats it, No online connection verification etc. Boot up, enter password, away we go.

This 4k system is for photography, hi-res images editing etc, and for hi-res AI text to image generations and running LLM etc. Will use it to see if can train custom AI agents. The following link looks good for running LLM locally on such a computer: gradient ai

But I will use it regularly to train checkpoint models and LoRAs etc for SDXL etc

Also it may not always be running @ 4k, depending on what Im doing but it is useful to have 4k when it is required.

BTW I dont wear coke-bottle glasses or any glasses at all, although viewing a small screen such as phone for long periods of time does make you short-sighted for a day. Probably won.t be bringing it along to pubs etc either due to the size and cost.

I dont want to open a can of worms but I guess Im gonna have to.

Quote: We are also in a “always on” world. Mac and windows (intel ones) will automatically wake itself up to do system updates in the background...

Actually I disagree with that.

RIP HUMAN CODERS! CREATE ANY APP With AI AGENTS in 1 PROMPT! is just one youtube video.

This is good for me (non-coder) but not good for all the dinosaur coders out there becoming extinct.

Open AI and Stack Overflow partner where Open AI accesses/uses all the code content listed on Stack Overflow to train LLM.

Open AI is releasing a media manager tool that users can use to allow/disallow their online content (such as code on Stack Overflow) to be used in any LLM training.

We are an in an “always on” world so the big corporate tech companies use our code, or use our data, etc to train their LLM, not always-on so we can have our apps updated on the hour, every hour.

Our anti-virus apps for Win systems have always been collating data on us, Nowdays it is any type of tech company collating data. If all types of O/S and all computers on the shelves where for free for ever, then this argument would be thrown out of court. We pay so the techies can collate and prosper. It should be the other way around IMO. They should be paying us.

You're honor I rest my case. Should the prosecution have any more evidence to submit, please do so when possible, the case is now adjourned for lunch in some fancy restaurant that charges $12 for water.

Zak postpones his star witness, .......an optometrist for next session.

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[oldherl]

I use a 4K monitor and set to 200% all the time, effectively same display area as 1080p. It's simply enjoyable to have better font rendering with more pixels to spend.

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