Nothing Personal, Only Business
beau...@beaucomm.com
Perhaps you feel that this attitude of "nothing personal, only business" is
some enlightened perspective? All of us are in business to make money and
all of us are concerned with how much we make. I would offer to you that it
is only *after* you make your business "personal" with your clients that you
will begin to experience true success. I read in your posts a type of
attitude which says "gimme gimme, get it in writing." Truly successful
business people are deeply concerned with the success and welfare of their
clients. It's called a relationship and it is what really makes doing
business fun and rewarding. If all you are concerned with is counting the
change at the end of the day, your entire life will be wasted just counting
change. Your long-term success and financial reward will unquestionably be
determined by the number of people you help to achieve their own success and
rewards.
Kevin Beauchamp
CEO
BEAUCOMM, INC.
>It doesn't have anything to do with whether someone is serious or not,
>it's about money. If it's profitable I'd do it, if not, then I won't
>touch it. Your volume might seem like a lot to you, but it might not make
>me that much money. What's relevant to me is how much money I make off
>your volume, not how much volume you do. I cut deals all the time, but I
>always remember that what's important is how much money I make now and
>over the long term, and I get it in writing.
>
>Chris
>
>-Nothing Personal, ONLY business
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ch...@valleynet.net
Kevin, I understand what you are saying, and at the same time I think you
misunderstand me a bit.
Yes, good business people are concerned for the success of their clients,
but it's because my success depends on their success, it's not just out of
the goodness of my heart. Do I personally like my clients? Yes, I like a
lot of them, and have relationships that go back years with some.
The bottom line is that I provide a good service because it benefits me,
not because I just like to help people. That's what drives business, and
at the core business is a game where everyone is out to take what they
can. It's not a negative in my book, it's simply reality. It doesn't
mean you don't treat people with respect and have honor and integrity in
your business dealings. It just means that you recognize that the other
guy isn't there to make you money, he is there to make himself money.
If my service helps him achieve his objectives better than the next guy,
than I keep him as a client. The day I stop providing a service that
benefits his bottom line I lose him as a client, regardless of what type
of relationship we might have. Let personal feelings interfere with
business decisions and you are in trouble.
Just an example. Would you enter into a complicated business deal with
someone you trust personally without a contract? I wouldn't. It doesn't
mean I don't trust the person, it just means that I know that when it
comes down to money, in the end the other guy is *always* going to do
what's in his best interest, not mine. Some people let you know this
right up front, some people sincerely think they will do what is right,
but in the end, human nature takes over and they do what is best for them,
despite what is right or what was agreed on. That's why you get
everything in writing.
I don't have a gimme gimme attitude. On the contrary, I don't expect
anything I haven't earned, and you earn what you get from providing
service to others in some way or another. My only objection is people
that think that there is some moral high ground in giving just for the
sake of giving. Thats a load of crap. People don't work that way.
People don't give without getting something in return. Money isn't always
what they get, but they get *something* that is of value to them. Maybe
it's recognition, or the feeling they get from helping someone that
doesn't expect it, or maybe it's cash, it really doesn't matter. But they
do get something in return. In business it usually comes down to money,
power, or just the satisfaction from playing the game well, and that game
is measured in the amount of money and power you accumulate.
Ya, I know, it's not politically correct to come out and actually say
something like this in public. OH well, reality is what it is, and if you
are going to do well in the business game, you have to face certain
realities. Like I said, nothing personal, only business...
Chris
and...@ltinet.net
[stuff snipped]
>Just an example. Would you enter into a complicated business deal with
>someone you trust personally without a contract? I wouldn't. It doesn't
>mean I don't trust the person, it just means that I know that when it
>comes down to money, in the end the other guy is *always* going to do
>what's in his best interest, not mine.
I would, and have. (Your logic seems fallacious: If you trust someone, you
don't need a contract. If you need a contract, you don't trust that
person). I have entered into business deals with some people on a
handshake. It has been extremely rewarding. I much prefer business where I
am protected by someones honor, rather than the legal process.
Call me naive, but I didn't sign a pre-nuptial either....;-)
[other sad stuff snipped]
All I want to say is, when I was younger (I'm in my 30's), I thought the
same way you did (and I guess sometimes I still do). The benchmarks you
mentioned have been attained. Over the years, I've found that, for me, the
most enduring contentment and happiness come from relationships (business or
otherwise), not money/power/thrill of the game.
But hey, I also really enjoyed what I learned from Les Miserables.....I
highly recommend the 1998 version....;-)
Andrew "the value of this email is worth exactly what you paid for it"
jbi...@icsmx.com
I agree completely with Andrew. Our ISP business has lot of relationships
with clients based in values and honor more than legal stuff. Maybe you
could think we are stupid but our beliefs on life follows one simple rule.
The 3 times rule: "Everything you do in life will return to you 3 times".
We believe in the handshake deals as well as our business partners believe
on us. Youw oudl be surpised if you would see how many business are habdled
that way in Mexico and Latin America.
JBiquez
At 16:16 5/12/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Chris wrote:
>[stuff snipped]
>
>>Just an example. Would you enter into a complicated business deal with
>>someone you trust personally without a contract? I wouldn't. It doesn't
>>mean I don't trust the person, it just means that I know that when it
>>comes down to money, in the end the other guy is *always* going to do
>>what's in his best interest, not mine.
>
>I would, and have. (Your logic seems fallacious: If you trust someone, you
>don't need a contract. If you need a contract, you don't trust that
>person). I have entered into business deals with some people on a
>handshake. It has been extremely rewarding. I much prefer business where I
>am protected by someones honor, rather than the legal process.
>
>Call me naive, but I didn't sign a pre-nuptial either....;-)
>
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ami...@ispgroup.org
We do what we do for our clients because of a number of reasons... we like
our type of work, we like our clients, we like ourselves. Part of the
service that we provide to our clients isn't cuz we make $$ at it, it's
because we like DOING it... and ultimately, that enjoyment shows itself to
the clients, and they give us referals, and we make more money.
We run 24 hours voice tech support. Nobody LIKES answering a fone at 4 am
to explain to someone that they really need to connect to the provider
before netscape will work, but we enjoy the thought that we've made someone
happy, and they are going to go to work the next day and brag about how
THEIR provider answered their question at 4 am while everyone else bitches
that they get an answering machine.
If you're in it for the money, and HAPPEN to like some of your clients,
either get out of the business or get a new attitude. Obviously, your
current attitude isn't working, based on the comments I've read in this
thread lately.
Cheer
Terry
It AIN'T just business, it's my LIFE, and that's PERSONAL!
>Yes, good business people are concerned for the success of their clients,
>but it's because my success depends on their success, it's not just out of
>the goodness of my heart. Do I personally like my clients? Yes, I like a
>lot of them, and have relationships that go back years with some.
<SNIP political doubletalk worthy of Senator Exxon>
ch...@valleynet.net
> Chris wrote:
> [stuff snipped]
>
> >Just an example. Would you enter into a complicated business deal with
> >someone you trust personally without a contract? I wouldn't. It doesn't
> >mean I don't trust the person, it just means that I know that when it
> >comes down to money, in the end the other guy is *always* going to do
> >what's in his best interest, not mine.
>
> I would, and have. (Your logic seems fallacious: If you trust someone, you
> don't need a contract. If you need a contract, you don't trust that
> person). I have entered into business deals with some people on a
> handshake. It has been extremely rewarding. I much prefer business where I
> am protected by someones honor, rather than the legal process.
I would prefer it myself. Reality tells me otherwise. I might trust
someone know, but my experience tells me that any situation can go bad,
and any good business person knows this and is willing to put it all in
writing. It's not a slight to someone you are doing business with to ask
this, it's just common sense.
> > Call me naive, but I didn't sign a pre-nuptial either....;-)
>
> [other sad stuff snipped]
>
> All I want to say is, when I was younger (I'm in my 30's), I thought the
> same way you did (and I guess sometimes I still do). The benchmarks you
> mentioned have been attained. Over the years, I've found that, for me, the
> most enduring contentment and happiness come from relationships (business or
> otherwise), not money/power/thrill of the game.
>
You are mixing the two here, I didn't. Relationships are always
important, but business relationships that last are built on making a
profit more than how much you like the other person. Your personal
relationship with your business partner is something different. I'm not
saying that money is more important than the personal relationship I may
have with a business partner, only that I try keep the two separate when
it comes to making business decisions.
Also, if you aren't in business to make money, it isn't business. There
isn't anything wrong with admitting that the primary reason to be in
business is to create a profit. In order to make a profit you have to
establish relationships and provide a quality product or service that
benefits someone. Establishing those relationships and providing the
service comes as a result of striving to make a profit, not the other way
around.
Chris
> But hey, I also really enjoyed what I learned from Les Miserables.....I
> highly recommend the 1998 version....;-)
>
> Andrew "the value of this email is worth exactly what you paid for it"
>
>
>
>
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> services in over 300 locations throughout the USA. Monthly account
> prices range from $8.25 down to $6.70! http://www.megapop.net/
>
>
>
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ch...@valleynet.net
One thing to keep in mind is the cultural aspects of doing business in
different countries. The consequences for breaking an oral agreement
might be just as disastrous for someone in Mexico as it would for someone
in the US to break a written contract.
Another thing to consider is what the business deal is over. In our
case, we
underwrite merchant status for businesses, and with the amounts of money
being dealt with we can't afford to just do business on a handshake, that
would be just plain stupid in our case. That would be like a bank giving
you a loan on a handshake. Maybe it used to happen 80 years ago, but
reality dictates that today it would be business suicide.
Who here signs up people for web hosting or dialup without a contract?
Not that many I would assume. Than why would you do business deals that
involve much higher amounts of money on only a handshake? Sorry, but that
just seems all backwards to me unless you do so few large deals as a
percentage of your overall income that it doesn't really matter if you
lose money on them. What that says is that you probably think
you know the person well enough to trust them to do the right thing if
things go bad. You might survive a few of those deals, but if you build
your business on that principle in today's world you won't be around 20
years from now. I might not like the fact that you just can't trust some
people to do the right thing when things go bad, but it's a fact you
ignore at your own peril.
Chris
On Sat,
5 Dec 1998, Jorge Biquez wrote:
> My two cents.
>
> I agree completely with Andrew. Our ISP business has lot of relationships
> with clients based in values and honor more than legal stuff. Maybe you
> could think we are stupid but our beliefs on life follows one simple rule.
> The 3 times rule: "Everything you do in life will return to you 3 times".
> We believe in the handshake deals as well as our business partners believe
> on us. Youw oudl be surpised if you would see how many business are habdled
> that way in Mexico and Latin America.
>
> JBiquez
>
> At 16:16 5/12/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >Chris wrote:
> >[stuff snipped]
> >
> >>Just an example. Would you enter into a complicated business deal with
> >>someone you trust personally without a contract? I wouldn't. It doesn't
> >>mean I don't trust the person, it just means that I know that when it
> >>comes down to money, in the end the other guy is *always* going to do
> >>what's in his best interest, not mine.
> >
> >I would, and have. (Your logic seems fallacious: If you trust someone, you
> >don't need a contract. If you need a contract, you don't trust that
> >person). I have entered into business deals with some people on a
> >handshake. It has been extremely rewarding. I much prefer business where I
> >am protected by someones honor, rather than the legal process.
> >
> >Call me naive, but I didn't sign a pre-nuptial either....;-)
> >
>
>
>
d...@bns.com
You are absolutely right... Unfortunately, the way Chris thinks is hurting
his business. Chris'
company offers online transaction processing and we tried to setup an
account with them. After
finding out that Chirs' staff could not properly install their software to
work with our server, we had
no choice to go with another provider. At the time, we had a small budget
for this particular project
so I was asking Chris for a favor to do a custom install for me without
charging me any
additional fees, on top of the outrages $250 setup fee he originally charged
me. At first, he was telling me that it would be no problem. Then, after
not being able to get his software to work on my server, he started having a
really bad attitude towards me and started ignoring me.
To make a long story short, we found another, more capable provider of
online transactions and
are now doing over 5,000 transaction per month. If Chris did not have the
attitude that he did about
business, he would've been handling those 5,000 transactions per month for
me and at the same
time making a small mint, as he puts it...
An attitude like that will put him out of business in no time at all...
Dan
cjen...@ziplink.net
The old saying a contract is worth nothing if the two people behind it aren't
honorable carries a lot of weight with me. My three largest contracts are based
on handshakes. In this industry however with things changing as rapidly as they
are a contract is relevant because it can lay out the groundwork of what happens
if things change. For example what happens to ISP's if mutual compensation goes
away on PRI lines? Is the cost passed through, absorbed? If it is passed
through how long does the buyer have to adjust rates etc etc. We are not selling
buggy whips here.
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ch...@valleynet.net
> Chris, you should run for president, with that ability at doubletalk....
>
> We do what we do for our clients because of a number of reasons... we like
> our type of work, we like our clients, we like ourselves. Part of the
> service that we provide to our clients isn't cuz we make $$ at it, it's
> because we like DOING it... and ultimately, that enjoyment shows itself to
> the clients, and they give us referals, and we make more money.
> We run 24 hours voice tech support. Nobody LIKES answering a fone at 4 am
> to explain to someone that they really need to connect to the provider
> before netscape will work, but we enjoy the thought that we've made someone
> happy, and they are going to go to work the next day and brag about how
> THEIR provider answered their question at 4 am while everyone else bitches
> that they get an answering machine.
>
> If you're in it for the money, and HAPPEN to like some of your clients,
> either get out of the business or get a new attitude. Obviously, your
> current attitude isn't working, based on the comments I've read in this
> thread lately.
That's funny, since you don't even know what I do exactly, and you
definitely don't know if it works for me or not.
If someone runs a business and tells me they aren't in it for the money,
I just flat don't believe them. Yes, I happen to like a lot of our
clients, but I don't provide the service because I *like* them, that's
ridiculous. If profit was an afterthought I wouldn't be in business, and
neither would you.
Do I get a good feeling because I do my job well enough that we have the
one of the lowest churn rates in the business? Definitely. Do I
personally like all of our clients? No, but that doesn't mean I don't
provide them with the same level of service that I do the ones I do like.
Now Terry, what if you did what you do for all those people and didn't
make any money off of it. Would you still do it? The fact that you like
yourself, like your customers, and like your work are all nice things,
and not completely irrelevant, but they simply should not be the main
reason you are in business. They are factors that keep you in business,
and you might need them to provide the type of service you do, but
without profit you don't have a business. I don't have to like my
customers to keep my business going. I don't have to like myself to keep
my business going. I don't even have to like what I do to keep my
business going. I *DO* have to make a profit. It is because I have to
make a profit that I service my customers. I also happen to like what I
do and like most of my customers. Liking what I do and liking my
customers may be a prerequisite to being in any particular business, but
they aren't the primary reason why you are *IN* business.
Chris
>
> Cheer
>
> Terry
>
> It AIN'T just business, it's my LIFE, and that's PERSONAL!
>
>
>
> >Yes, good business people are concerned for the success of their clients,
> >but it's because my success depends on their success, it's not just out of
> >the goodness of my heart. Do I personally like my clients? Yes, I like a
> >lot of them, and have relationships that go back years with some.
>
>
> <SNIP political doubletalk worthy of Senator Exxon>
>
>
>
>
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ja...@howtosell.net
Nothing Personal, Only Business eh? There is a real simple principle that
I once heard from a very wise man that you should think about:
"You can get what you want, if you just help enough other people get what
they want." - Zig Ziglar.
It is a very simple statement, but one I live by. One that has helped me
throughout my life to help me achieve what I have. One that you might
want to seriously think about.
I am the first one to admit that the 'its only business' attitude has
gotten a lot of people, a lot of money. But at what cost? How many
people can you screw before it comes back at you?
There is one rule that just about every religion follows in one way or
another "Do unto others as you would have them do onto you."
The debate about contracts and the like, is to protect both parties. But
if everyone was to place nice in the sandbox, we wouldn't have that
problem. I don't know how many deals I have personally made over a nice
firm handshake.
People trust me. They know that I always will do what is best for them,
not for me. I am one of the few sales people who will turn down a deal
just because it is not right for the customer. Its not all about the
bottom $. I can guarantee you that for every sale I have turned down
because it wasn't right for the customer, I have never had a customer
complain, and they have ALWAYS came back when they did have a need for
something I have.
Your philosophy in life may get you only so far. Mine, and those who
follow philosophies like mine, are truly destined for greatness. This is
not just some bullshit. This is a way of life.
One last point. Business is just like relationships. I can guarantee
that those who screw others in business dealings are more likely to screw
their significant others... Its the same way that married people, with
families, and stable households, tend to be more productive, and tend to
stay with companies longer.
Its your choice. Are you in it for the $s or in it to help others? If
you are just in it for the $, then I feel sorry for you.
</RANT>
Jason
*These are my personal opinions and do not represent any affiliation I may
have.
*Check out the newest sales and marketing resource for ISPs
http://www.howtosell.net. Weekly columns, presentations, tutorials and more!
____________________________________________________
Jason Zigmont (N1JIV) ja...@howtosell.net
ISP/C Member http://www.ispc.org
and...@ltinet.net
>I would prefer it myself. Reality tells me otherwise. I might trust
>someone know, but my experience tells me that any situation can go bad,
>and any good business person knows this and is willing to put it all in
>writing. It's not a slight to someone you are doing business with to ask
>this, it's just common sense.
Do you trust your business partner?
>You are mixing the two here, I didn't. Relationships are always
>important, but business relationships that last are built on making a
>profit more than how much you like the other person.
Including your relationship with your business partner, right?
> Your personal relationship with your business partner is something
different.
How so? You already said that reality tells you differently. Your reality
should apply to your business partner(s). This seems confusing....
>I'm not
>saying that money is more important than the personal relationship I may
>have with a business partner, only that I try keep the two separate when
>it comes to making business decisions.
Hmm....see your next paragraph. These two different standards contradict
each other.
>Also, if you aren't in business to make money, it isn't business. There
>isn't anything wrong with admitting that the primary reason to be in
>business is to create a profit. In order to make a profit you have to
>establish relationships and provide a quality product or service that
>benefits someone. Establishing those relationships and providing the
>service comes as a result of striving to make a profit, not the other way
>around.
You are contradicting yourself with those last 5 words. You state in the
last sentence that relationships and service are derivatives of profit
seeking, but in the previous sentence you also state that profit is a
derivative of establishing relationships and providing quality products or
services.
So, let's reverse the logic flow here. If there is no monetary gain, no
profit involved, you won't provide good service, nor establish
relationships. Is this your attitude in business only, or all areas of life
(hey, if it's valid for business, why not life in general? If it's not
valid for other areas, your business attitude may be flawed.)
IMO, life is not a subset of business, rather the opposite. There is
nothing wrong with profit. That is *one* valid reason for being in
business. But if that is all that drives you in business, then sooner or
later, the revealed reality of what makes life worth living may cause some
consternation.
I hope you don't interpret me as saying your views are invalid, as they are
not. Rather, there may be other ways of looking at things. Using a piano
for a (perhaps poor) analogy, you can create symphonies by using all the
keys, not just chopsticks with a few.
And hey, to get this back on-topic, one of the facets of marketing is to
convince people that they aren't happy, unless they do something you want
them to do. (I've found that usually means monetary transfer. From me to
someone else.) This marketing attitude does fit your description of why we
are in business. I least I think so...you know how easily I got confused
earlier on. I guess money does buy happiness?
For example, I think telemarketers follow your line of reasoning. However,
IMO, that business raison d'être is just not a pleasant one to remember when
the telemarketer calls at dinnertime. I'm sure they are trying to build a
relationship, and provide good service/products. I know they care...they
wouldn't call if they didn't. [/sarcasm]
I just don't buy from them. Because to them, it IS soley about profit, pure
and simple.
But hey, I'm not your mother, so I'll shut up from now on regarding what I
think on this matter. And that, Chris, gives you the opportunity to get the
last word in! ;-).
Andrew "my wife would be pleased with me...perhaps surprised...."
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ch...@valleynet.net
I really think that maybe I'm just not explaining myself that well. I
don't really disagree with anything you are saying. That famous statement
from Ziglar is basically just rephrasing what I already said. Notice that
it begins with 'you can get what you want if'. That was one of my points,
that it begins with what you want. In business people help other people
because it benefits them in some way or another, not because they just
like to do it for fun.
The 'it's only business' evidently had a different meaning to you than it
does to me. I already stated that it doesn't mean that you don't act
ethically or honestly, but evidently you just glossed over that part.
I guess I thought it went without saying that you conduct yourself with
honesty and integrity. I didn't mean that you put profit before your
personal values or what is good for the customer, that's just self
destructive to say the least and definitely not profitable in the long
run.
I guess some people are just going to assume what they will. I never said
money was the only objective, only that in business it is the primary
one. It might
be a fine line there, but it's definitely an important one. Your
assumption
that I am somehow less of a person than you are because I am in business
primarily to make a profit, while you are in business to help people, is
not only completely missing the point, but dishonest as well. If you are
truly here just to help people, than I will assume that you don't mind
giving all your profits to your favorite charity and living in poverty.
In your own words, you have achieved what you have because of what you
have done for other people, but to say that you did it all out of the
goodness of your heart and not primarily as a means to gain what you
wanted? Sorry, I don't buy it. There isn't any shame in admitting that
your underlying motives are to obtain a better life for yourself and to
make more money, and it doesn't mean you have to screw people over in the
process.
Chris
On Sat, 5 Dec
1998, Jason Zigmont wrote:
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>
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ch...@valleynet.net
> Chris said:
> >I would prefer it myself. Reality tells me otherwise. I might trust
> >someone know, but my experience tells me that any situation can go bad,
> >and any good business person knows this and is willing to put it all in
> >writing. It's not a slight to someone you are doing business with to ask
> >this, it's just common sense.
>
>
> Do you trust your business partner?
Yes, I do. We started our business on a handshake, and it continued that
way for over a year before we put anything on paper.
>
> >You are mixing the two here, I didn't. Relationships are always
> >important, but business relationships that last are built on making a
> >profit more than how much you like the other person.
>
> Including your relationship with your business partner, right?
>
Yes, although I would add that I wouldn't go into business with someone I
didn't trust or like. The trick for me has been to separate business and
personal issues. When we are talking business, we frequently get into
heated arguments, but it's all business and we don't take it personally.
> > Your personal relationship with your business partner
is something > different.
>
> How so? You already said that reality tells you differently. Your reality
> should apply to your business partner(s). This seems confusing....
It confuses me sometimes also to be honest. I trust my partners, but we
still have a written agreement since things can and do go wrong. I can't
predict the future, but I can safeguard my future interest in the business
against unforseen problems with a written contract.
Business deals often start out all rosy, and it isn't until months down
the road that things start to go wrong. Fortunately this doesn't happen
that often, but I know from experience that I can't possibly know for a
fact that the person I trust and do business with today won't change their
tune when times get tough or personal circumstances change.
> > >I'm not
> >saying that money is more important than the personal relationship I may
> >have with a business partner, only that I try keep the two separate when
> >it comes to making business decisions.
>
>
> Hmm....see your next paragraph. These two different standards contradict
> each other.
>
> >Also, if you aren't in business to make money, it isn't business. There
> >isn't anything wrong with admitting that the primary reason to be in
> >business is to create a profit. In order to make a profit you have to
> >establish relationships and provide a quality product or service that
> >benefits someone. Establishing those relationships and providing the
> >service comes as a result of striving to make a profit, not the other way
> >around.
>
>
> You are contradicting yourself with those last 5 words. You state in the
> last sentence that relationships and service are derivatives of profit
> seeking, but in the previous sentence you also state that profit is a
> derivative of establishing relationships and providing quality products or
> services.
>
It's late:) There are different types of relationships. Relationships
with partners that start a business venture, and relationships with
customers and peer after your business is going. I probably should have
explained that one better.
> So, let's reverse the logic flow here. If there is no monetary gain, no
> profit involved, you won't provide good service, nor establish
> relationships. Is this your attitude in business only, or all areas of life
> (hey, if it's valid for business, why not life in general? If it's not
> valid for other areas, your business attitude may be flawed.)
>
The way I look at it, personal gain drives everyone. In business it's
money, in other areas of your life it's other things. In personal
relationships you give of yourself because you want that it returned in
the same way, etc.. No one likes to just give and give without getting
something in return. Personal relationships where one person just takes
and the other gives won't last. Both people have to give and take. The
bottom line is that the underlying motive for each person is to get
somethng that they want. That doesn't mean they don't enjoy giving, but
giving without ever getting anything in return will only last for so long.
> IMO, life is not a subset of business, rather the opposite. There is
> nothing wrong with profit. That is *one* valid reason for being in
> business. But if that is all that drives you in business, then sooner or
> later, the revealed reality of what makes life worth living may cause some
> consternation.
To say the least. A business may be in existance primarily to make a
profit, but that doesn't mean that the personal goals of the people behind
the business are the same. For me, my business is a vehicle to get some
of the things I want. The objective of my business is to make money. My
personal goals aren't nearly as narrow, and my business is only one part
of my life. For a business to survive, it has to make a profit. You
can't escape that one. That's why the emphasis in your business should be
on creating profit. That doesn't mean that you create profit at any cost.
In most cases, you create profit by creating value for other people, but
since you still have to make a profit there are certain things you can't
do, like just give away your services. That is where I think most of the
misunderstanding is on this subject. It's also how you look at it. You
can say that profit is a result of providing value, and that is correct.
If you take it one step further and say that the motive for helping other
people is to get something in return (profit), than that would be correct
also. I think what seems to bother people is the idea that they do things
for their own selfish reasons 99% of the time, and that the primary reason
people give is to get something in return.
>
> I hope you don't interpret me as saying your views are invalid, as they are
> not. Rather, there may be other ways of looking at things. Using a piano
> for a (perhaps poor) analogy, you can create symphonies by using all the
> keys, not just chopsticks with a few.
>
> And hey, to get this back on-topic, one of the facets of marketing is to
> convince people that they aren't happy, unless they do something you want
> them to do. (I've found that usually means monetary transfer. From me to
> someone else.) This marketing attitude does fit your description of why we
> are in business. I least I think so...you know how easily I got confused
> earlier on. I guess money does buy happiness?
>
Money can buy you things like more time, which can lead to more happiness.
I think it's all about understanding what money really is and what it's
not. Money doesn't buy you happiness, but it can buy you time to pursue
what is really important to you. On the other hand, the pursuit of money
can lead to your demise if you don't keep balance in your life.
Well, I'm tired, so I'll shut up for now. I'm sure several people will be
happy to hear that:)
Chris
> For example, I think telemarketers follow your line of reasoning. However,
> IMO, that business raison d'être is just not a pleasant one to remember when
> the telemarketer calls at dinnertime. I'm sure they are trying to build a
> relationship, and provide good service/products. I know they care...they
> wouldn't call if they didn't. [/sarcasm]
>
> I just don't buy from them. Because to them, it IS soley about profit, pure
> and simple.
>
> But hey, I'm not your mother, so I'll shut up from now on regarding what I
> think on this matter. And that, Chris, gives you the opportunity to get the
> last word in! ;-).
>
> Andrew "my wife would be pleased with me...perhaps surprised...."
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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ami...@ispgroup.org
rebuttal....
>Now Terry, what if you did what you do for all those people and didn't
>make any money off of it. Would you still do it? The fact that you like
Let me answer that short and sweet....
I "run" a number of bots on IRC.... I don't own them, i get asked to run
them because of my "expertise" with eggdrops. I spend countless hours at
night, after work on irc, talking to people, teaching them about irc,
teaching them about bots, teaching them about internet in general....
I don't get paid a goddamned cent for that... I do it cuz i like them... I
do it cuz i care about their channels and the security of their channels,
and I do it cuz I go to bed pleased that I have helped out one or two people
in the course of the evening that no one else would help becuase their
questions were "stupid."
So, briefly, to answer your comment, yeh, a LOT of us do things for free,
that perhaps we should charge money for, because we give a damn. If you
feel it necessary to attach a price to every thing that you do, your self
worth is obviously tied to a cash register and not a soul.
*ding* NO SALE
It AIN'T just business, it's my LIFE, and that's PERSONAL!
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emma...@mwt.net
statement. I have always done what i do for fun first the money second, and
i have always been taken care of.
EMMANUEL!!
*ding* NO SALE
ch...@valleynet.net
I was talking about running a business, not pursuing personal interests.
I do a lot of things outside my business just for fun. I also have fun
with my buisness. I probably wouldn't be in business if it wasn't fun,
but I don't run my business just for fun. That's ludicrous.
Chris
On Sun, 6 Dec
je...@tftb.com
It's *just a sigfile,* for goshsakes. Lots of y'all probably remember back
to when you had dozens, hundreds or even thousands of such "taglines" and
rotated them through messages in your "off-line reader." It *didn't mean
anything* other than that one could assume, probably, that the person who
used it generally strives to do business with his head more so than his
heart. Or not. I use a little plugin called "Be Original," and my sig could
include a quote that means something to me. Or not.
Jeff Schult
------------------------------------------------------------
"Few parents nowadays pay any regard to what their children say to them. The
old-fashioned respect for the young is fast dying out." -- Oscar Wilde
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.tftb.com
Tales from the Bitstream
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Ochs <ch...@valleynet.net>
To: isp-ma...@isp-marketing.com <isp-ma...@isp-marketing.com>
Date: Sunday, December 06, 1998 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Nothing Personal, Only Business
>
beau...@beaucomm.com
*words do mean things* and what you say is heard... ah, read.
"It sometimes shows a great command of the English language to say...
nothing." -Annon.
"Better to say nothing and be thought a fool, than to say something and
remove all doubt." -Twain
"After reading this list, I wouldn't touch Cardservices Int'l with a 35'
nuclear cattle prod." -Beau
>It's *just a sigfile,* for goshsakes. Lots of y'all probably remember back
>to when you had dozens, hundreds or even thousands of such "taglines" and
>rotated them through messages in your "off-line reader." It *didn't mean
>anything* other than that one could assume, probably, that the person who
>used it generally strives to do business with his head more so than his
>heart. Or not. I use a little plugin called "Be Original," and my sig could
>include a quote that means something to me. Or not.
>Jeff Schult
>
<SNIP>
>
>>
>>I was talking about running a business, not pursuing personal interests.
>>I do a lot of things outside my business just for fun. I also have fun
>>with my buisness. I probably wouldn't be in business if it wasn't fun,
>>but I don't run my business just for fun. That's ludicrous.
>>
>>Chris