Old NVIDIA card, new FreeBSD = failure?

[Kristofer via freebsd-questions]

Hi,

I've been using FreeBSD for many years, but I very seldom update so my knowledge is very much out of date. After some disk issues, I had to reinstall my workstation and I'm currently fighting a losing battle. I hope I'm missing something. I do feel a bit lost with all the changes that have happened since I last actually did some under-the-hood stuff in FreeBSD so I might well be going about this all backwards.

I installed 13.0-RELEASE which went fine, but trying to get X to work is failing.
I have an old NVIDIA GeForce GTX 460 which worked fine on the old version (I think I had FreeBSD 10.2), now I'm trying to follow the handbook instructions and download the driver directly from NVIDIA's site.
First I downloaded NVIDIA-FreeBSD-x86_64-460.84, which built ok, but when starting X it says that my card is only supported by the legacy driver -390, so I downloaded NVIDIA-FreeBSD-x86_64-390.143. This one won't build as it say that the driver does not support FreeBSD 13.0
So catch-22 so far.

Is there some other way I should be getting the drivers or some way to get either of these to work with me. I really don't have to buy a new machine. I guess I could reinstall with an older FreeBSD version again, but seems a bit wrong to do that.

TIA,
Kristofer
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[Jerry]

On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 09:37:27 +0000, Kristofer via freebsd-questions
stated:

>Hi,
>
>I've been using FreeBSD for many years, but I very seldom update so my
>knowledge is very much out of date. After some disk issues, I had to
>reinstall my workstation and I'm currently fighting a losing battle. I
>hope I'm missing something. I do feel a bit lost with all the changes
>that have happened since I last actually did some under-the-hood stuff
>in FreeBSD so I might well be going about this all backwards.
>
>I installed 13.0-RELEASE which went fine, but trying to get X to work
>is failing. I have an old NVIDIA GeForce GTX 460 which worked fine on
>the old version (I think I had FreeBSD 10.2), now I'm trying to follow
>the handbook instructions and download the driver directly from
>NVIDIA's site. First I downloaded NVIDIA-FreeBSD-x86_64-460.84, which
>built ok, but when starting X it says that my card is only supported
>by the legacy driver -390, so I downloaded
>NVIDIA-FreeBSD-x86_64-390.143. This one won't build as it say that the
>driver does not support FreeBSD 13.0 So catch-22 so far.
>
>Is there some other way I should be getting the drivers or some way to
>get either of these to work with me. I really don't have to buy a new
>machine. I guess I could reinstall with an older FreeBSD version
>again, but seems a bit wrong to do that.
>
>TIA,
>Kristofer

Is there a specific reason you are not using nVidia from the port's
system?

Port: nvidia-driver-390-390.143_1
Path: /usr/ports/x11/nvidia-driver-390
Info: NVidia graphics card binary drivers for hardware OpenGL rendering

Or, if need be:

Port: nvidia-secondary-driver-390-390.143_1
Path: /usr/ports/x11/nvidia-secondary-driver-390
Info: NVidia graphics card binary drivers for hardware OpenGL rendering on secondary device


--
Jerry

[Valeri Galtsev]

> On Jun 25, 2021, at 11:04 AM, Kristofer <gundo...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Valeri,
>
> thanks for the answer. I"m not aware of an open source driver for FreeBSD, I thought that Nouveau only worked on Linux these days? Is there another one, if so, where can I find it?
>

pkg name is: xf86-video-nv-2.1.21_4

and driver name is nv. Take a look what else you may need of xf86 and xorg packages.

And good luck!

Open source driver will not be able to drive two minors of different resolution in dual monitor configuration. It is because nvidia does not disclose chip internals (especially video memory layout), so it is impossible to write decent video driver. Open source nvidia driver only supports most basic features on nvidia cards. For comparison, ATI (and now owned by AMD still does it) always disclosed chip internals, that’s why open source drivers for ATI cards are great and are supporting a lot of their features. So, to the contrary to [misguided IMHO] large number of Linux folks who love NVIDIA, I for one always preferred ATI, they always were my life saver.

<rant>
And I stared disliking NVIDIA even more once I faced their obsoleting their cards as very young age. Incidentally, Apple once used NVIDIA chips, but after they had one NVIDIA chip in their MacBook Pro that had bug in silicon, and was crashing next release of MacOS, Apple started program replacing faulty hardware. The program stopped rather quickly, _MY_ assessment is: they (Apple) asked NVIDIA to cover their share of losses, which was their fault in the first place, and NVIDIA refused. No nvidia chips in any Apple products since (but Apple had to close hardware replacement program, somewhat marring their excellent before that reputation).
</rant>

Good luck!

Valeri

> /Kristofer
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On 25 Jun 2021, 15:09, Valeri Galtsev < gal...@kicp.uchicago.edu> wrote:

>
>
> On June 25, 2021 4:37:27 AM CDT, Kristofer via freebsd-questions <freebsd-...@freebsd.org> wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >I've been using FreeBSD for many years, but I very seldom update so my
> >knowledge is very much out of date. After some disk issues, I had to
> >reinstall my workstation and I'm currently fighting a losing battle. I
> >hope I'm missing something. I do feel a bit lost with all the changes
> >that have happened since I last actually did some under-the-hood stuff
> >in FreeBSD so I might well be going about this all backwards.
> >
> >I installed 13.0-RELEASE which went fine, but trying to get X to work
> >is failing.
> >I have an old NVIDIA GeForce GTX 460 which worked fine on the old
> >version (I think I had FreeBSD 10.2), now I'm trying to follow the
> >handbook instructions and download the driver directly from NVIDIA's
> >site.
> >First I downloaded NVIDIA-FreeBSD-x86_64-460.84, which built ok, but
> >when starting X it says that my card is only supported by the legacy
> >driver -390, so I downloaded NVIDIA-FreeBSD-x86_64-390.143. This one
> >won't build as it say that the driver does not support FreeBSD 13.0
> >So catch-22 so far.
> >
>

> That is why any day I will give 3 old nvidia cards for a sngle old ati card. Did you try open source driver?
>
> Incidentally, it is not nvidia driver that you are compiling, but an interface between kernel and binary proproetary driver.
>
> Valeri

>
> >Is there some other way I should be getting the drivers or some way to
> >get either of these to work with me. I really don't have to buy a new
> >machine. I guess I could reinstall with an older FreeBSD version again,
> >but seems a bit wrong to do that.
> >
> >TIA,
> >Kristofer
> >_______________________________________________
> >freebsd-...@freebsd.org mailing list
> >https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
> >To unsubscribe, send any mail to
> >"freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org"
>

> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Valeri Galtsev
> Sr System Administrator
> Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
> Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
> University of Chicago
> Phone: 773-702-4247
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message <uZ6VybGvR6ddjj1CVAd0CMNpgvfbc65oLMD5y8r7OPur5j7flNkWuLoxJAueOHkyAJoOW68fE1zpTrvk18VPxS

U3drao03Lv0n8UM6ge3y0=@protonmail.com>, Kristofer <gundo...@protonmail.com> wrote:

>I installed 13.0-RELEASE which went fine, but trying to get X to work is failing.

>I have an old NVIDIA GeForce GTX 460 which worked fine on the old version...

I have a simimar problem, since FreeBSD these days no longer fully supports
my admittedly ancient AMD-based video card... and as a result, I sometimes
get kernel crashes (althought not too frequently).

I don't think there is anything to be done about these kinds of problems
unless you are willing & able to roll up your sleeves and fix the video
drivers that are of interest to you yourself. The next best altetrnative,
short of purchasing all new hardware, is to just buy & install a different
and newer video card.


Regards,
rfg


P.S. It would be Good if whoever does work on the video card support in
FreeBSD could create and maintain a short list of "cheap" video cards
that are actually supported now, and that should remain so for at
least the next few years.

[Robert Huff]

"Ronald F. Guilmette" <r...@tristatelogic.com> writes:

> P.S. It would be Good if whoever does work on the video card support
> in FreeBSD could create and maintain a short list of "cheap" video
> cards that are actually supported now, and that should remain so for
> at least the next few years.

Yes, _PLEASE_! (s/video cards/chipsets)
I use AMD, not Nvidia, but I have been looking for over a year
for a low end card actively supported by drm-kmod and/or
drm-current-kmod. Figuring out which chipsets they support ... let's
just call it both educational and frustrating.
(For anyone in my position: I _think_ the RX 460 and above
support GCN 2.1, which is what I _think_ is the bottom-end
specification. Cards matching this number seem to start at about
US $50.)



Hopefully,


Robert Huff

[Graham Perrin]

On 25/06/2021 20:28, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:
> … FreeBSD these days no longer fully supports my admittedly

> ancient AMD-based video card... and as a result, I sometimes

> get kernel crashes (althought not too frequently). …
What's the card?

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message <33d89cc2-e204-d96d...@gmail.com>, you wrote:

On 25/06/2021 20:28, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:

> ? FreeBSD these days no longer fully supports my admittedly

> ancient AMD-based video card... and as a result, I sometimes

> get kernel crashes (althought not too frequently). ?
What's the card?


Not sure exactly. It's something with an AMD HD5450 on it.

Why? can you make my kernel stop crashing?

If so, please do.

[Tomasz CEDRO]

I also have AMDGPU (modern strong one) and it krashes my machine sometimes.
Because OpenCL does not work on it I falled back to simple framebuffer
display..

Efficient and Stable Graphics is something FreeBSD needs badly nowadays to
make it attractive desktop platform.

Sad that Sony uses FreeBSD on Playstation but shares nothing back in this
area :-(

--
CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info

[Kristofer via freebsd-questions]

Thanks all who replied, I seem to have completely missed the available packages, so I'll give them a try and see if I can get it working that way

-------- Original Message --------

[Serpent7776]

On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 20:27:41 -0700
"Ronald F. Guilmette" <r...@tristatelogic.com> wrote:

> In message <33d89cc2-e204-d96d...@gmail.com>, you wrote:
>
> On 25/06/2021 20:28, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:
> > ? FreeBSD these days no longer fully supports my admittedly
> > ancient AMD-based video card... and as a result, I sometimes
> > get kernel crashes (althought not too frequently). ?
> What's the card?
>
>
> Not sure exactly. It's something with an AMD HD5450 on it.
>
> Why? can you make my kernel stop crashing?
>
> If so, please do.

I had Radeon HD 5450 on my machine and it started to crash my system at random
moments after upgrade to 12-RELEASE. It was hardware acceleration that caused
this. When I disabled it with

Section "Extensions"
Option "GLX" "Disable"
EndSection

in /usr/local/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/disable-gpu.conf

it was working fine.

I replaced the video card with GeForce GT 710 and I'm using x11/nvidia-driver,
and it's working fine with hardware acceleration.
--
/*
* Serpent7776
*/

[Valeri Galtsev]

> On Jun 26, 2021, at 2:34 AM, Tomasz CEDRO <to...@cedro.info> wrote:
>
> I also have AMDGPU (modern strong one) and it krashes my machine sometimes.
> Because OpenCL does not work on it I falled back to simple framebuffer
> display..
>
> Efficient and Stable Graphics is something FreeBSD needs badly nowadays to
> make it attractive desktop platform.
>
> Sad that Sony uses FreeBSD on Playstation but shares nothing back in this
> area :-(
>

Yes, that is the difference of BSD style or apache license and GPL. The first ones attract businesses, and they do not have share back their achievements…

Valeri

[Robert Huff]

Greg V <gr...@unrelenting.technology>:

> Robert Huff <rober...@rcn.com>:

>
> > (For anyone in my position: I _think_ the RX 460 and above
> >support GCN 2.1, which is what I _think_ is the bottom-end
> >specification. Cards matching this number seem to start at about
> >US $50.)
>

> GCN is the name of the GPU architecture, not something a GPU
> "supports"..

Got that; the "support" is from the software.
I have two conflicting desires:
a) I want to run modern applications ...
on the latest stable version of X ...
using an actively maintained and
improved version of amdgpu/drm ...
working with reasonably high-performance hardware.
b) I have a very limited budget, and would ideally like to be
able to use this on older systems - say ones with a PCIe 2.0
expansion slot.

Finding a card that meets these specifications has been
... educational. That's why I'm hoping someone more knowledgable
has done the work and would be willing to publish it.


Respectfully,

[Greg V]

On June 25, 2021 7:52:20 PM UTC, Robert Huff <rober...@rcn.com> wrote:
> I use AMD, not Nvidia, but I have been looking for over a year
>for a low end card actively supported by drm-kmod and/or
>drm-current-kmod. Figuring out which chipsets they support ... let's
>just call it both educational and frustrating.
> (For anyone in my position: I _think_ the RX 460 and above
>support GCN 2.1, which is what I _think_ is the bottom-end
>specification. Cards matching this number seem to start at about
>US $50.)

Hi,

GCN is the name of the GPU architecture, not something a GPU "supports"..

Polaris generation (RX 460-590) GPUs are GCN 4.0. Yes, they are a very good option. But you can use older GCN just as well.

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/ is a good resource for searching through all the models. In the "Architecture" selector, you can choose any GCN, as well as RDNA 1. Just not RDNA 2 yet.

[Alexey Dokuchaev]

On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 11:26:44AM +0000, Greg V wrote:
> On June 26, 2021 10:11:42 PM UTC, Robert Huff wrote:
> > ...

> > Got that; the "support" is from the software.
> > I have two conflicting desires:
> > a) I want to run modern applications ...
> > on the latest stable version of X ...
> > using an actively maintained and
> > improved version of amdgpu/drm ...
> > working with reasonably high-performance hardware.
>

> Yes, all you need is a GCN GPU. Avoid the really old pre-GCN (TeraScale
> and older) architectures and you'll be fine.

Technically pre-GCN chips are still supported by radeon(4) and *should*
also be fine (it used to work for me on my Richland APU), but something
got broken along the line so yeah you'd better off with newer GCN chips
unless you want to invest some time into bringing support for older ones
back in shape.

./danfe

[Robert Huff]

Greg:

> > b) I have a very limited budget, and would ideally like to be
> > able to use this on older systems - say ones with a PCIe 2.0
> > expansion slot.
>

> No conflict here: PCI Express generations are all backward and
> forward compatible. You can run the newest gen4 cards in gen2
> slots just fine (obviously at gen2 bandwidth).

As Johnny Carson used to say: "I did not know that."
<inhales; exhales>
So now I'm back to the question: what is the earliest GCN version
actively supported by amdgpu and drm(-kmod/-current-kmod)? More
correctly: where is this documented? I can look it up myself.

[Stefan Esser]

Am 27.06.21 um 13:55 schrieb Robert Huff:

>
> Greg:
>
>> > b) I have a very limited budget, and would ideally like to be
>> > able to use this on older systems - say ones with a PCIe 2.0
>> > expansion slot.
>>
>> No conflict here: PCI Express generations are all backward and
>> forward compatible. You can run the newest gen4 cards in gen2
>> slots just fine (obviously at gen2 bandwidth).
>
> As Johnny Carson used to say: "I did not know that."
> <inhales; exhales>
> So now I'm back to the question: what is the earliest GCN version
> actively supported by amdgpu and drm(-kmod/-current-kmod)? More
> correctly: where is this documented? I can look it up myself.

Hi Robert,

I've got a passively cooled R7 250E (Cap Verde Pro) with 2 GB video RAM
(probably identical to the GDDR5 version of the Radeon HD 7750).

All technical details can be found in Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_HD_7000_series
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_Rx_200_series

It is a GCN 1st gen. card and supported by the xf86-video-amdgpu driver
and the DRM kmods and libva drivers.

I would not get a lower end card, they are neither cheaper nor more power
efficient (idle power of 10 W, 50 W max., allowing for a very silent fan
or even passive cooling in a case with forced airflow).

The HD 7790 is already GCN 2nd gen., but probably harder to get, and at
$70 about twice as expensive as a HD 7750 on eBay. All R5 240 and higher
cards should work as well (R5 220/230/235 are Terascale cards).

The only drawback compared to a modern card is raw performance (but the
7750 is already faster than today's typical on-chip VGAs) and lack of
HW decoding of modern video codecs like VP9.

Regards, STefan

[Greg V]

On June 26, 2021 10:11:42 PM UTC, Robert Huff <rober...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
>Greg V <gr...@unrelenting.technology>:
>
>> Robert Huff <rober...@rcn.com>:
>>
>> > (For anyone in my position: I _think_ the RX 460 and above
>> >support GCN 2.1, which is what I _think_ is the bottom-end
>> >specification. Cards matching this number seem to start at about
>> >US $50.)
>>
>> GCN is the name of the GPU architecture, not something a GPU
>> "supports"..
>
> Got that; the "support" is from the software.
> I have two conflicting desires:
> a) I want to run modern applications ...
> on the latest stable version of X ...
> using an actively maintained and
> improved version of amdgpu/drm ...
> working with reasonably high-performance hardware.

Yes, all you need is a GCN GPU. Avoid the really old pre-GCN (TeraScale and older) architectures and you'll be fine.

> b) I have a very limited budget, and would ideally like to be
> able to use this on older systems - say ones with a PCIe 2.0
> expansion slot.

No conflict here: PCI Express generations are all backward and forward compatible. You can run the newest gen4 cards in gen2 slots just fine (obviously at gen2 bandwidth).

Similarly it's all compatible between different lane counts, e.g. you can shove an x16 card into an x4 slot (if it's not an open ended slot.. it can be made open-ended with a rotary tool :D)

[Robert Huff]

Chris:

> You can also paint contacts on the card to enable/disable
> "features" as required for a given scenario. :D. Had to do that to
> get a newer Nvidia card to work in an old Mac.

If you ever see me doing that? Have me tranquilized immediately,
then call N.A.S.A. and the military.


Respectfully,


Robert "I am _not_ a pod-person!" huff

[RW via freebsd-questions]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 15:45:29 +0200
Stefan Esser wrote:


> The only drawback compared to a modern card is raw performance (but
> the 7750 is already faster than today's typical on-chip VGAs) and
> lack of HW decoding of modern video codecs like VP9.

I wonder if hardware decoding is actually important on desktop
processors. I'm using integrated Intel HD 2500 graphics from
8 years ago with the i915 driver and, AFAIK, I'm seeing 3d
acceleration, but not getting hardware decoding for video.

1080p x264 decoding in software is using only about 28% of a core with
vlc, 4k video on a 1080p display is about 180%. This is on an 8 year
old, bottom of the range, quad core, sandy bridge i5 cpu.

[Kevin Oberman]

On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 3:11 PM RW via freebsd-questions <
freebsd-...@freebsd.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 15:45:29 +0200
> Stefan Esser wrote:
>
>
> > The only drawback compared to a modern card is raw performance (but
> > the 7750 is already faster than today's typical on-chip VGAs) and
> > lack of HW decoding of modern video codecs like VP9.
>
> I wonder if hardware decoding is actually important on desktop
> processors. I'm using integrated Intel HD 2500 graphics from
> 8 years ago with the i915 driver and, AFAIK, I'm seeing 3d
> acceleration, but not getting hardware decoding for video.
>
> 1080p x264 decoding in software is using only about 28% of a core with
> vlc, 4k video on a 1080p display is about 180%. This is on an 8 year
> old, bottom of the range, quad core, sandy bridge i5 cpu.
> _______________________________________________
>

On an 8 year old i915, I'm guessing Ivy Bridge, you should get video
acceleration with libva-intel-driver. You may also want
libva-intel-hybrid-driver. It should, at very least, work though it may not
help. The media-driver requires a newer GPU. Braodwell or newer, though. On
my 10 year old Sandy Bridge system the CPU utilization for playing an H.264
encoded video dropped CPU from 60% to about 10%. I could even play video
with a compile running as long as the compile was niced.
--
Kevin Oberman, Part time kid herder and retired Network Engineer
E-mail: rkob...@gmail.com
PGP Fingerprint: D03FB98AFA78E3B78C1694B318AB39EF1B055683

[Chris]

[RW via freebsd-questions]

On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 17:19:05 -0700
Kevin Oberman wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 3:11 PM RW via freebsd-questions <
> freebsd-...@freebsd.org> wrote:

> > I wonder if hardware decoding is actually important on desktop
> > processors. I'm using integrated Intel HD 2500 graphics from
> > 8 years ago with the i915 driver and, AFAIK, I'm seeing 3d
> > acceleration, but not getting hardware decoding for video.
> >
> > 1080p x264 decoding in software is using only about 28% of a core
> > with vlc, 4k video on a 1080p display is about 180%. This is on an
> > 8 year old, bottom of the range, quad core, sandy bridge i5 cpu.
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> On an 8 year old i915, I'm guessing Ivy Bridge, you should get video
> acceleration with libva-intel-driver.

Thanks, that does work. And it is ivy bridge rather than sandy bridge.

> On my 10 year old Sandy Bridge system the CPU
> utilization for playing an H.264 encoded video dropped CPU from 60%
> to about 10%. I could even play video with a compile running as long
> as the compile was niced.

I've not noticed any impact on video from compiling, unless I run with
the default value of kern.sched.preempt_thresh. Perhaps we've found the
point at which hardware decoding became relatively insignificant.

I've only recently got the Intel graphics working. I originally fell
back to using an old nVidia card. If you followed the UPDATING advice
exactly nVidia video support fell-off with kernel mode-setting, and I
didn't notice. I only found out because someone pointed it out in this
list, and he only noticed it in top.