Time, space, money, and sex: the woman artist's fantasy
Chris McLaughlin
Anyone read Mary Gordon's Spending?
I just started it, and it's like the ultimate middle aged
woman-struggling artist fantasy.
Seems this rich, handsome, sexy, perfect in every
way guy offers himself to a painter as her muse and
patron, giving her everything she needs to step up
from being a good painter to being a great one.
(Okay. So it's a male fantasy too. Only it
strikes a chord because we're not used to seeing
stories about women actually getting it. Getting any
of it. You know?)
I have no idea where the book will go. But oh my,
what lovely thoughts!
So I'm wondering: if someone came up to you and
made you this particular offer: time, space, money, and
really great sex, in exchange for your working better at your craft
than you ever have before, would you be able to make it
work? Or would your feelings of not being deserving
get in the way?
Chris
Leon
Chris McLaughlin wrote:
>So I'm wondering: if someone came up to you and
>made you this particular offer: time, space, money, and
>really great sex, in exchange for your working better at your craft
>than you ever have before, would you be able to make it
>work? Or would your feelings of not being deserving
>get in the way?
Could I have, maybe, a warm roll with butter and a cup of coffee every
morning? And hot soup for dinner?
Leon
Sara Zarr
On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:59:23 GMT, cm...@cybergal.com (Chris McLaughlin)
wrote:
>So I'm wondering: if someone came up to you and
>made you this particular offer: time, space, money, and
>really great sex, in exchange for your working better at your craft
>than you ever have before, would you be able to make it
>work? Or would your feelings of not being deserving
>get in the way?
Believe it or not, I've actually pondered this question. And I
decided that the set-up wouldn't work for me. Not because of not
feeling deserving (I always feel deserving), but because I think that
my various desires for time, space, money and really great sex are at
least a part of what drives me to work better at my craft. If those
needs and desires were met by someone else's labors, I don't know that
I would be driven to write at all. Maybe I would, though, I don't
know. It's just that a large part of my own creative drive comes from
survival instincts; whether they are spiritual, physical or
psychological survival issues.
-Sara
Mary Lincoln
>So I'm wondering: if someone came up to you and
>made you this particular offer: time, space, money, and
>really great sex, in exchange for your working better at your craft
>than you ever have before, would you be able to make it
>work? Or would your feelings of not being deserving
>get in the way?
Absolutely! What freedom!
Mary
Mary Lincoln
On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:57:20 GMT, las...@slip.net (Sara Zarr) wrote:
>Believe it or not, I've actually pondered this question. And I
>decided that the set-up wouldn't work for me. Not because of not
>feeling deserving (I always feel deserving), but because I think that
>my various desires for time, space, money and really great sex are at
>least a part of what drives me to work better at my craft. If those
>needs and desires were met by someone else's labors, I don't know that
>I would be driven to write at all. Maybe I would, though, I don't
>know. It's just that a large part of my own creative drive comes from
>survival instincts; whether they are spiritual, physical or
>psychological survival issues.
But I assumed that he was going to go away if I didn't keep working,
or that he was certainly going to go away when my best was achieved.
Mary
Jerry Kindall
> So I'm wondering: if someone came up to you and
> made you this particular offer: time, space, money, and
> really great sex, in exchange for your working better at your craft
> than you ever have before, would you be able to make it
> work? Or would your feelings of not being deserving
> get in the way?
With all the really great sex, who'd have TIME for writing?
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kin...@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
FREE cool stuff for your Mac! http://www.manual.com/freebies.html
Steve Pritchard
Chris McLaughlin wrote in message
<6i887m$m...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
>So I'm wondering: if someone came up to you and
>made you this particular offer: time, space, money, and
>really great sex, in exchange for your working better at your craft
>than you ever have before, would you be able to make it
>work? Or would your feelings of not being deserving
>get in the way?
I'm willing to be the guinea-pig here. C'mon, someone take me up on the
offer (please).
Ed Humphries
Chris McLaughlin (cm...@cybergal.com) wrote:
: So I'm wondering: if someone came up to you and
: made you this particular offer: time, space, money, and
: really great sex, in exchange for your working better at your craft
: than you ever have before, would you be able to make it
: work? Or would your feelings of not being deserving
: get in the way?
Umm, don't 'cha just hate it when really great sex gets
in the way of work? Or is that supposed to be the other
way around??
But, seriously, isn't this sort of setup exactly the kind
of thing that causes one to dry up and not be able to
produce any work? What kind of work would _I_ do if every
wish I had was just given to me and I _also_ had time to
just sit down and write creatively?
Okay, I don't know, I'd love to find out, and I certainly
deserve the chance.
Cheers, Ed Humphries
Mary Lincoln
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 05:32:41 -0400, kin...@mail.manual.com (Jerry
Kindall) wrote:
>In article <6i887m$m...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, cm...@cybergal.com wrote:
>
>> So I'm wondering: if someone came up to you and
>> made you this particular offer: time, space, money, and
>> really great sex, in exchange for your working better at your craft
>> than you ever have before, would you be able to make it
>> work? Or would your feelings of not being deserving
>> get in the way?
>
>With all the really great sex, who'd have TIME for writing?
It works like this, see: when you don't get enough to eat, you're
always thinking of food. It becomes supremely important in your life.
Only when you are adequately fed, does food achieve it's proper role
in your life. Sex works the same way. Of course, you can always
substitute the sex for the food or the food for the sex, but somehow,
it isn't quite as fulfilling.
Mary
FantaCWrtr
In article <6i887m$m...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, cm...@cybergal.com (Chris
McLaughlin) writes:
>So I'm wondering: if someone came up to you and
>made you this particular offer: time, space, money, and
>really great sex, in exchange for your working better at your craft
>than you ever have before, would you be able to make it
>work? Or would your feelings of not being deserving
>get in the way?
>
(Being a horror writer) I would have to wonder just what my "deal" would cost
me.
Eternal damnation? Fifty years of--I really hate this person, or some other
similar
horrible fate?
Jerri~too much the skeptic these days
FantaCWrtr
>time, space, money, and
>really great sex, in exchange for your working better at your craft
>than you ever have before,
Wait, I already have this.
I don't work, Okay, so I have to share the time with the kids, but no problem.
Space is not a problem. I can write anywhere.
Money, well, we have some, maybe not more than we can spend, but enough.
REALLY great sex came with the marriage.
Wow, I guess i didn't have to deal with the devil. It's a wonderful life.
Jerri~nahnee nahner boo boo :-P~
Sara Zarr
>But I assumed that he was going to go away if I didn't keep working,
>or that he was certainly going to go away when my best was achieved.
For me that would be living under a threat. If I live under the
premise that something good will be taken away when I do my best,
where is the motivation? I would rather live under the premise that
something will be added.
-Sara
chris mclaughlin
las...@slip.net (Sara Zarr) wrote:
>For me that would be living under a threat. If I live under the
>premise that something good will be taken away when I do my best,
>where is the motivation? I would rather live under the premise that
>something will be added.
This is kinda fascinating. As far as I can tell, the
men are all saying, whoa! Make me an offer!
And the women (except for Mary, bless her) are
finding reasons to decline.
One of the heroine's quandries is learning to ask
for exactly what she wants, whether it's a trip to
Italy or sex -- now, but not later. Just because
it's what she wants, no other justifcations needed.
I'm guessing most of us could accept someone's largesse
(being "kept" by a spouse or partner), but only if we
felt we could pay back (housework, mainly, and childcare:
our time, and subordination of our wants to theirs, because
we owe them). That's what was so cool about the deal in
the book: none of that. Just. . . what she wanted. And
when she wanted it.
It's not the day job that keeps me exhausted: it's the
second shift. Imagine not having to cook. Clean. Chauffeur.
Entertain. Imagine being able to just. . .write. Even a
couple days a week.
Chris
edi...@picadesign.com
no problem. bring it on.
there comes a time in every person's life when he/she has to realize that
self-denial *really* limits you. (hahahahahaha, laughing at me own little
joke there.)
L Verde
In article <6i887m$m...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
cm...@cybergal.com wrote:
>
> Anyone read Mary Gordon's Spending?
>
> I just started it, and it's like the ultimate middle aged
> woman-struggling artist fantasy.
>
> Seems this rich, handsome, sexy, perfect in every
> way guy offers himself to a painter as her muse and
> patron, giving her everything she needs to step up
> from being a good painter to being a great one.
>
> (Okay. So it's a male fantasy too. Only it
> strikes a chord because we're not used to seeing
> stories about women actually getting it. Getting any
> of it. You know?)
>
> I have no idea where the book will go. But oh my,
> what lovely thoughts!
>
> So I'm wondering: if someone came up to you and
> made you this particular offer: time, space, money, and
> really great sex, in exchange for your working better at your craft
> than you ever have before, would you be able to make it
> work? Or would your feelings of not being deserving
> get in the way?
>
> Chris
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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alan hope
Chris McLaughlin <cm...@cybergal.com> wrote in article
<6i887m$m...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
> So I'm wondering: if someone came up to you and
> made you this particular offer: time, space, money, and
> really great sex, in exchange for your working better at your craft
> than you ever have before, would you be able to make it
> work? Or would your feelings of not being deserving
> get in the way?
>
> Chris
>
When do I start?
AH
Mary Lincoln
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:01:19 GMT, las...@slip.net (Sara Zarr) wrote:
>On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 04:43:15 GMT, mlin...@ix.netcom.com (Mary
>Lincoln) wrote:
>
>>But I assumed that he was going to go away if I didn't keep working,
>>or that he was certainly going to go away when my best was achieved.
>
>For me that would be living under a threat. If I live under the
>premise that something good will be taken away when I do my best,
>where is the motivation? I would rather live under the premise that
>something will be added.
>
Unless you already have the "time, space, money, and really great
sex," you are living under a *reality of deprivation,* and I'd trade
that for the *threat of deprivation* quite readily. Adroitly, even.
Far better to have been loved and lost, than never to have been loved
at all. That's my motto.
Of course, I don't deserve it, but...what the hell. Why not? It's the
really great sex part that appeals to me. Now if the bonus of being
able to smoke cigarettes again, with no adverse health risks, were
added, why I think that I'd even be willing to tolerate daily feelings
of unworthiness. Alas, it is all moot.
There is one small caveat: before you decide to accept this manna,
come to some agreement on *who decides* whether the sex is really
great; you or him. It may just be my bad luck, but I have had the
experience, more than once, of...well, never mind. Just make sure it's
clear.
Mary
Kathie Meyer
In article <6i887m$m...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
cm...@cybergal.com (Chris McLaughlin) wrote:
>So I'm wondering: if someone came up to you and
>made you this particular offer: time, space, money, and
>really great sex, in exchange for your working better at your craft
>than you ever have before, would you be able to make it
>work?
If "space" means he lives somewhere else besides at my house, then yes I do
believe I could persuade myself to agree to such an arrangement.
Can you say, "Not yes, but hell yes!"?
>Or would your feelings of not being deserving
>get in the way?
If they did, there's always therapy. He's paying, right? <g>
Kathie Meyer
Zoe Bach
In article <6ia701$l...@wiscnews.wiscnet.net>, chris mclaughlin
<ch...@macbeth.computerbits.com> writes:
>
>It's not the day job that keeps me exhausted: it's the
>second shift. Imagine not having to cook. Clean. Chauffeur.
>Entertain. Imagine being able to just. . .write. Even a
>couple days a week.
>
>Chris
I don't in fact do much of this stuff unless I feel like it; hubby's
the same way. The deal is we don't clean/do boring housework
things unless we honestly want to, and if we *are* in the mood to
do it we're not allowed to nag at the other one to do it too. This
works for us because we're both total slobs. I don't recommend
it in marriages between a Felix and an Oscar. With two Oscars,
though -- bliss.
Re. the offer, if I'm understanding it correctly, it's a dream
come true -- time to write PLUS all the other stuff!
Perhaps I'm missing the female guilt/tidy gene?
Zoe
Adora
Just for the sake of argument:
What if 'he' is a 'she'? Would you be willing to cross the sex-lifestyle
lines for the sake of your craft? (This would go for those who would
prefer he were a she as well)
Adora
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.angstgrrl.com - brainy grrls busting loose and breaking skin
Mary Lincoln
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:25:32 -0500, Bob and Mary Jo Place
<boba...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Mary Jo "Does everyone hate me yet?" Place
Everybody!
Mary
Steve Pritchard
TaniO wrote in message ...
>Steve, are you the offerer or the offeree? Just wanted to know before I
>said yes.
(Steve rapdily check his bank account, groans again and shrugs)
Sorry, not much chance of me keeping anyone in the manner to which they
would like to become accustomed. Guess I'll just have to sit back and wait
for my rich muse to come along and make me that offer. Sorry TaniO, not me
I'm afraid :(
Carol Thomas
Among other things, cm...@cybergal.com wrote:
>So I'm wondering: if someone came up to you and
>made you this particular offer: time, space, money, and
>really great sex, in exchange for your working better at your craft
>than you ever have before, would you be able to make it
>get in the way?
I don't know about feeling deserving, but I'd probably have a problem
with being supported financially. The deal sounds wonderful, but I tend
to get antsy when I'm not my own breadwinner. A control issue,
probably. OTOH, I'd probably work very, very hard at my craft in order
to pay back my patron.
Interesting question, Chris. Tell us what happens in _Spending_ when
you finish it?
Carol
(No doubt the heroine gets murdered or something; the setup's too good
to be true. What, me? A cynic?)
TaniO
In article <894017586.29930.0...@news.demon.co.uk>, "Steve
Pritchard" <st...@NOspelbindSpam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Thanks for checking. When my rich muse appears, I'll see if I can work
something out for you too. Solidarity goes well with money, time, great
sex, and, especially writing.
Best,
TaniO(looking out of window; waiting to grab a muse.)
Kathie Meyer
In article <6iches$2qg$1...@news.interlog.com>,
lemm...@interlog.com (Carol Thomas) wrote:
>Interesting question, Chris. Tell us what happens in _Spending_ when
>you finish it?
Like in e-mail so those of us who want to read the book ourselves don't
already know the ending?
Kathie (still annoyed with the guy who gave away the ending to _Cold
Mountain_) Meyer
Wendy Chatley Green
For some inexplicable reason, Bob and Mary Jo Place
<boba...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:Chris McLaughlin wrote:
:>
:>
:> So I'm wondering: if someone came up to you and
:> made you this particular offer: time, space, money, and
:> really great sex, in exchange for your working better at your craft
:> than you ever have before, would you be able to make it
:> work? Or would your feelings of not being deserving
:> get in the way?
:Interestingly, this very thing was recently offered me by my excessively
:indulgent husband. I think I'm going to take it. The only thing holding
:me back is nearly twenty years of fending for myself. I haven't any
:experience being a kept woman, but I'm looking forward to it.
Go for it--it's definitely worth it, if you are able to
self-schedule.
:
:Problem is, I'm probably going to spend my first month of freedom
:alternately catching up on my gardening and fishing. Not much writing
:until I get bored with that.
I spent the last two months edging new beds with brick,
working them up, planting herbs, bedding plants, tomatoes,
shrubs, and trees. I also mulched, hand-weeded my yard and
renovated the bare patches in the lawn, repaired hoses, and moved
my compost piles (twice!). This would have been impossible if I
were working--both in time and in the dollars to pay someone else
to do it.
Now that that is finished, I go back to writing. It's all
will-power--knowing by when a chore must be completed and then
making certain it occurs.
:Mary Jo "Does everyone hate me yet?" Place
Nope. Welcome to the club.
--
Wendy Chatley Green -- wcg...@cris.com
chris mclaughlin
lemm...@interlog.com (Carol Thomas) wrote:
>I don't know about feeling deserving, but I'd probably have a problem
>with being supported financially. The deal sounds wonderful, but I tend
>to get antsy when I'm not my own breadwinner. A control issue,
>probably. OTOH, I'd probably work very, very hard at my craft in order
>to pay back my patron.
I think this gets back to some of the fascinating questions
the book raises.
The first one is do we women really take our "art" seriously enough
to believe that its value makes the sacrifices of others
justifiable? I'm betting most of us are rather apologetic
about our writing, thinking it is not good enough (now)
or too small in scope -- not WORTHY. I, for example, don't
aspire to be like Tolstoi. I aspire to be more in the universe
of, say, Barbara Pym. I believe deeply that Pym's truths, if
on a smaller scale, are as valuable. But I have been told
for so long that the personal realm is lesser, less WORTHY,
that a part of me has come to believe that, too.
I'm also betting that most men think damn *straight* what I'm
doing is WORTHY -- and about time you noticed! The question is,
then, can women get there, too?
The second relates to man/woman conventions and politics. Have
we gone so far in learning to distrust men that we can't see,
much less accept, their sincere generosity when it is extended
to us? Are we so afraid of being diverted by men or having them
demand too much of us that what might be mutually beneficial
relationships between us are doomed before they begin?
Then there's a third, troubling question. Given that more women
than men have someone paying the bills for us, "freeing"
our time, why aren't we more productive in the world of
art? Why do we spend so much time puttering in our gardens
while we say we want to be writers? I think it goes back
to the first point: we don't really believe that the work
we do is WORTHY (outside of the kids). And then, there is
the draining enormity of domestic duty, especially where
there are children, that even this arrangement doesn't answer.
Chris
chris mclaughlin
wcg...@cris.com (Wendy Chatley Green) wrote:
:Mary Jo "Does everyone hate me yet?" Place
:: Nope. Welcome to the club.
Well, I hate you both.
Clubs to which I'm denied entrance make me cross.
Chris.tine, former queen of the Smug and Self-
Congratulatory Clique (SSCC), handing over the crown
and weeping great dramatic envious tears, which still
are more fetching on me than on most.
Zoe Bach
Why is this a woman's fantasy, by the way? Don't you guys like
it too?
Zoe
Kathie Meyer
In article <354888...@angstgrrl.com>, Adora <ad...@angstgrrl.com>
wrote:
>Just for the sake of argument:
>What if 'he' is a 'she'? Would you be willing to cross the sex-lifestyle
>lines for the sake of your craft? (This would go for those who would
>prefer he were a she as well)
Honey, there are days I would agree to have sex with a donkey every day
before my morning coffee in order to be able to stay home from my day job
and write.
Kathie (and most of the time, I *like* my day job) Meyer
Alexander J Berman
Were I to say it was not at all attractive to me, I'd be lying.
Still and all, I'd much prefer love.
Alex Jay Berman
-- of course, were Jewel Kilcher to be the one doing the offering, there'd be
a lot to love ...
"The only thing we have to fear on this planet is man."--Carl Gustav Jung
Steve Pritchard
Alexander J Berman wrote in message
<6ie2od$n7n$2...@winter.news.erols.com>...
>In article <199805012048...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
zoe...@aol.com (Zoe Bach) wrote:
>>Why is this a woman's fantasy, by the way? Don't you guys like
>>it too?
>>
>>Zoe
>
>Were I to say it was not at all attractive to me, I'd be lying.
>Still and all, I'd much prefer love.
Lying still? Hell, I'd at least be jigging about a bit to make it fun.