trottier - worth the money?
Tim Roessler
If you did, was it worth the $465?
TIA
BrickRage
>From: Tim Roessler t...@timroessler.com
>Has anyone used Dave Trottier as a script consultant?
>
>If you did, was it worth the $465?
>
I hear the book's good.
If The Almighty her/his self came down from on high and blessed my work, the
most I'd spring for is about two-fifty.
Nesci
Two words.
Stay amazed.
The FAQ for m.w.s is http://www.communicator.com/faqs.html
Aubrey Brown
The real question should be if anyone is worth more than 250 or so for an
eval?
Aubrey
--
PM Aubrey Brown Sr. MPS MBBFMN #390
Eureka Lodge No. 64 F&AM
P. Grand Historian MWPHGL of IL.
aubrey...@worldnet.att.net
"Tim Roessler" <t...@timroessler.com> wrote in message
news:3B7D8BA2...@timroessler.com...
Lou Grantt
script because someone's professional evaluation, criticism and feedback
made the previously unmarketable script saleable, then how much are you
willing to pay?
I used to charge $600 for a full consultation, which could take all day of
us going over the script. I was told it was a great price for what they got.
(I charged $300 for a shorter version.)
Dave Trottier is an excellent consultant. If he helps a writer get a script
in shape to sell it, or even just teaches the writer things that will make
the next script better and/or marketable, isn't that worth more than $250?
Okay, so we're all on a budget and money doesn't grow on trees, but this is
a career. Doctors and lawyers don't make the big bucks by only paying $250
(or any arbitrary number pulled out of a hat) for their training. Neither
should screenwriters. If you want that career and you want to make six or
seven figures on a sale, then be willing to pull the belt tighter, scrimp on
luxury items, save up your dough and spend the money (wisely!) to learn your
craft and advance your career.
You'd think that after all these years, a few folks would acknowledge the
value of a good script consultant. And asking about each individually is
very smart. But poo-pooing them because they charge good money for a good
job doesn't make sense to me. You just won't get feedback like this from PGL
or Zoetrope or any other peer situation.
My two cents.
Lou
--
********************************************************
Lou Grantt, Editor Hollywood Scriptwriter
818-709-7449 http://hollywoodscriptwriter.com
********************************************************
"Aubrey Brown" <aubrey...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:6Bgf7.13530$Ki1.1...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
BrickRage
>From: "Lou Grantt" lgr...@socal.rr.com
>Interesting how people put a dollar level on this. If you make mid-six on a
>script because someone's professional evaluation, criticism and feedback
>made the previously unmarketable script saleable, then how much are you
>willing to pay?
Yes, it is interesting Lou. But in that possible mid-six scenario the operative
word is still "If". Hell, the whole business is a crap-shoot anyway so if
you're willing to plop down an extra $500 as a side bet, go right ahead. Just
don't expect your script to be suddenly marketable.
>I used to charge $600 for a full consultation, which could take all day of
>us going over the script. I was told it was a great price for what they got.
Indeed. Though not officially in the consultancy biz, I used to get around a
grand -- and that was a dozen years ago. I eventually realized I wasn't cut out
to deal with other people's work. All I found I was doing was telling people
how *I* would do it.
>Dave Trottier is an excellent consultant.
No doubt. My post about $250 was rather flip, of course, but it was completely
my opinion and not meant to be advice. Just because I don't use net-talk like
IMHO doesn't mean it should be construed as anything else.
Thomas L. C.
news:hPgf7.44254$ig6.14...@typhoon.we.rr.com...
> Interesting how people put a dollar level on this. If you make mid-six on
a
> script because someone's professional evaluation, criticism and feedback
> made the previously unmarketable script saleable, then how much are you
> willing to pay?
that's a damn big if
how about I fork over the cash for this valuable work *after* it's sold?
--
Thomas L. C.
---------------------------------------------------
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro"
-HST
trajan
>
> Interesting how people put a dollar level on this. If you make mid-six on a
> script because someone's professional evaluation, criticism and feedback
> made the previously unmarketable script saleable, then how much are you
> willing to pay?
>
>
consultant in NYC? Preferably someone who's actually helped
shepherd a real script into shape that was sold for real money.
Thanks for your help,
Trajan
(Feelin' a might testy after that bizarre ScriptShark experience,
and willing to go for broke on this one.)
Lou Grantt
breath and count to ten before I post on stuff like this. You're right.
It's a big "If." It's always "if" in our business and if we don't get
feedback, chances are we don't do as well. If we do get feedback, and if
the gods smile down on us and if the planets all line up, maybe, just
maybe...
Lou (Chilling)
--
********************************************************
Lou Grantt, Editor Hollywood Scriptwriter
818-709-7449 http://hollywoodscriptwriter.com
********************************************************
"BrickRage" <bric...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010817185847...@mb-mg.aol.com...
Lou Grantt
I understand your hesitation, and applaud that you're asking for a
recommendation. Unfortunately, I don't know who's the best in NYC. I can
recommend any of the ones in the Products and Services section of any issue
of HS. Maybe someone on the east coast can come up with a name for you.
Does it have to be NYC?
Lou
--
********************************************************
Lou Grantt, Editor Hollywood Scriptwriter
818-709-7449 http://hollywoodscriptwriter.com
********************************************************
"trajan" <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:3B7DCAD5...@optonline.net...
Lou Grantt
doesn't work for me. If I spend hours and hours reading your script a
couple of times, making notes, doing research if necessary, and then I spend
all day in conference with you going over it page by page, line by line. . .
No professional consultant will ever guarantee that your script will sell.
Never. But a good consultation will make the script better and, if you're
open to it, help you learn a lot about your craft that you can take into the
next script and the next one after that.
That's like private tutoring, using your script as a textbook. That's worth
the money, upfront.
Lou
--
********************************************************
Lou Grantt, Editor Hollywood Scriptwriter
818-709-7449 http://hollywoodscriptwriter.com
********************************************************
"Thomas L. C." <iza...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Rnhf7.104120$GN.13...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
BrickRage
>From: "Lou Grantt" lgr...@socal.rr.com
>Sorry, this subject always pushes my hot buttons.
Understood. The weather being what it's been in LA this week though, we don't
need any more hot buttons.
>You're right.
>It's a big "If." It's always "if" in our business
Sure is. And it's always a matter of making a living too. You're also a
publisher. Trottier is a consultant. At least most of this newsgroup isn't
flipping burgers somewhere.
>Lou (Chilling)
I've got my A/C on too.
Thomas L. C.
I was just giving you shit for the "then it will be a saleable product"
argument. That should never be the motivation, because it will rarely be
the result. If you're in it for the learning experience alone, then
depending on who is doing the mentoring, it's a completely valuable service.
my kingdom for a Kubrick evaluation!
--
Thomas L. C.
good luck pulling that one off
---------------------------------------------------
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro"
-HST
"Lou Grantt" <lgr...@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:e1if7.44268$ig6.14...@typhoon.we.rr.com...
I'm Skip & You're Not
Tim Roessler <t...@timroessler.com> wrote:
>Has anyone used Dave Trottier as a script consultant?
>
>If you did, was it worth the $465?
If you want to hire a script consultant (and I do it on occasion) and
you have that kind of money to spend, double it and pay Lew Hunter
(assuming he's still charging $1,000). He puts the money he makes on
that in a fund for his grandkids, and he's zero bullshit and all
credits, and a nice guy, too. www.lewhunter.com
--
Every two or three years I knock off for a while. That way,
I'm constantly the new girl in the whorehouse.
-- Robert Mitchum
All the best,
Skip Press, the Duke of URL
Hollywood and Somewhat Important News at
http://home.earthlink.net/~skippress/
wcmartell
> >I used to charge $600 for a full consultation, which could take all day of
> >us going over the script. I was told it was a great price for what they got.
Whether the cost is outrageous or not is all a matter of POV. I kept
getting e-mails from people wanting me to read their script. If I read
all of these scripts I wouldn't have time to do anything else. So I
came up with an outrageous price - $350 - and put up a page on my
website. Every once in a while someone pays me and I read their
script... and that price looks a lot less outrageous. I end up
spending about a week on the damned things. Reading them a couple of
times, trying to figure out where they go wrong, typing up notes
(average about 22 single spaced pages!). I think I could make more
money working at Starbucks! Maybe I should raise my price to a grand?
From the writer's POV that's a lot of money, but from the POV of the
guy reading a script 3 times and writing pages and pages of notes it's
just not enough.
- Bill
Free Script Tips
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/wcmartell
SS Johny
>If you want to hire a script consultant (and I do it on occasion) and
>you have that kind of money to spend, double it and pay Lew Hunter
>(assuming he's still charging $1,000). He puts the money he makes on
>that in a fund for his grandkids, and he's zero bullshit and all
>credits, and a nice guy, too
Hey Skip,
Next time, pay me half that and spend a weekend at Burke Williams, and if
you're disappointed in my notes, I'll give you your money back.
Someone made a good point abuot the point of an evaluation. You can't take a
bad concept, a lackluster style and mediocre storytelling and turn it into
something marketable, but the inadvertent side-effect of a good consultation is
that you learn a lot about screenwriting. In fact I would dare say that if
you're an intermediate screenwriter, you learn more about writing from a
thorough analysis of your script than you do a screenwriting class.
If you've ever paid a lawyer 500 bucks for 2 hours of his time, paying a great
script consultant $400 for 8-10 hours of his/her time is a deal.
Peace,
Jim
Read-80-scripts-in-June, CA
Aubrey Brown
Who is the best consultant that you recommend that will work for a "Get Out
Of Jail Free" card?
Aubrey
--
PM Aubrey Brown Sr. MPS MBBFMN #390
Eureka Lodge No. 64 F&AM
P. Grand Historian MWPHGL of IL.
aubrey...@worldnet.att.net
"Lou Grantt" <lgr...@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:dIhf7.44264$ig6.14...@typhoon.we.rr.com...
SS Johny
Hollywoodpartners.com if you want to take a look. Hmm? A dot.com that went
bankrupt...must have been my column.
http://www.bigtimehollywood.com/displayonearticle.html?id=95
PEace,
Jim
PJ Browning
>
> Interesting how people put a dollar level on this. If you make mid-six on a
> script because someone's professional evaluation, criticism and feedback
> made the previously unmarketable script saleable, then how much are you
> willing to pay?
yes but in many cases, you're talking about a newbie that hasn't ever
made mid five (much less six) on a script, is walking dogs in Santa
Monica for a living and doesn't have $400-600 to spend on anything
except rent. in which case, you want to be sure that you aren't getting
shafted by a medicore eval at a major fee.
PJ Browning
>
> I hear you :)
>
> I was just giving you shit for the "then it will be a saleable product"
> argument. That should never be the motivation, because it will rarely be
> the result. If you're in it for the learning experience alone, then
> depending on who is doing the mentoring, it's a completely valuable service.
any consultant, book writer etc that promises you that your script will
sell is lying.
I work at a major LA bookstore and I gringe everytime I get a book in my
section (performing arts and writers reference) with a title like "How
to write and sell your screenplay in 20 days--Guaranteed"
Richard Milton
>Interesting how people put a dollar level on this.
I agree with Lou that this is not a question about
script consultancy, it's a question about the
fees professionals charge. As a consultant
(Not, I hasten to add, a script consultant)
I charge £650 a day (somewhere near
$1,000 a day) People are happy to pay it and
get value for money. Some people pay two
ot three times that rate to my competitors
and are still happy. Fifteen years ago I worked for
a big management consultancy whose top rate
(for a very senior person) was £25,000
per day (about $40,000 per day *then*).
When IBM was going down the tubes
in 1991, it was losing $7 million a day,
so this is peanuts.
We all have a perception of how much we
are willing to pay certain people -- a real
estate agent, an accountant, a garage
mechanic -- for their services. But, as Lou says,
the fee should relate to the value of the
service not to internal ideas of their worth.
Brick says screenwriting is a crap shoot and
of course he's right -- don't we all know it!
But the question then becomes "how much
faith do you have in your screenplay and
your own ability"? If the answer is "not
$450 worth", then you've got some free
feedback on your script already.
When I wanted professional advice
I ignored the commercial consultants
who marketed themselves well (and
frequently) and worked through the
listings in directories and screenwriting
organisations. I found a guy who teaches
at one of the best screenwriting Universities
and also did commercial work. (He later
won a BAFTA and was nominated for
a best screenplay Oscar). He charged
me £50 to read the script and then give
me a face to face critique for an hour
or two. I quickly found out what crap
my script was and was glad I hadn't
wasted a lot of money.
My 2c rant.
Richard
"I'll do it for £24,000 a day if pushed"
trajan
>
> Trajan,
>
> I understand your hesitation, and applaud that you're asking for a
> recommendation. Unfortunately, I don't know who's the best in NYC. I can
> recommend any of the ones in the Products and Services section of any issue
> of HS. Maybe someone on the east coast can come up with a name for you.
>
> Does it have to be NYC?
>
Trajan
I'm Skip & You're Not
PJ Browning <alien...@email.com> wrote:
No shit, PJ. Unlike you, I cringe, but I'm assuming what you do is a
cross between grinching and cringing. It's a fucking hype world, this
screenplay consultancy business. I read a bunch of scripts cheap
recently ($100) because I was writing an article for the Writer's Guild
newsletter and told them I'd do it por nada (hey, they send me great
free newsletters) but I demanded a WG T-shirt, and they agreed after
long, difficult negotitations. ;-) I wasn't going to read people's
scripts for nothing, so I cut my usual charge down from $250, and
several people said it was the best consultation they ever got. Mirko
Betz, who sold his first script to Roland Emmerich, paid me to review
his second script and liked what I said, too. Does this mean I'm getting
into the McKee business? Let' me put it this way --
FUCK NO!
I'm about writing novels and screenplays and getting them published and
sold if not filmed, and writing things for hire. I don't want to do the
dog and pony seminar/consultancy show.
But guess what, most people who have a chance do that, and the majority
of them are marginal with regard to competency about screenplays.
When you read or talk to Bill Martell, you're getting some straight
stuff. The guy's had 17 friggin' screenplays MADE, for chrissakes. I've
probably had that many optioned, two purchased out right, but I can't
come near competing with Bill. On the other hand, I've been paid to
write about 30 books, so that ain't shabby, either.
But here's the bottom line - tons of folks want to grab that Hollywood
brass ring, and some of them do, so as long as that's going on, people
are going to be writing books and publishing magazines and selling
newsletters and doing seminars about how to do it, whether they've had
personal success in that area themselves or not, and people will keep
paying them to do it.
--
The metric system did not really catch on in the States, unless
you count the increasing popularity of the nine-millimeter bullet.
-- Dave Barry
I'm Skip & You're Not
>>If you want to hire a script consultant (and I do it on occasion) and
>>you have that kind of money to spend, double it and pay Lew Hunter
>>(assuming he's still charging $1,000). He puts the money he makes on
>>that in a fund for his grandkids, and he's zero bullshit and all
>>credits, and a nice guy, too
>
In article <20010817232037...@mb-cv.aol.com>,
ssj...@aol.com (SS Johny) wrote:
>Hey Skip,
>
>Next time, pay me half that and spend a weekend at Burke Williams, and if
>you're disappointed in my notes, I'll give you your money back.
I thought somebody might read it that way. I meant to say I DO
consultations myself on occasion. Trust me, bud, I know you do good
work, or I wouldn't have mentioned you in my book - not just everybody
gets mentioned in it, ya know.
>
>Someone made a good point abuot the point of an evaluation. You can't take a
>bad concept, a lackluster style and mediocre storytelling and turn it into
>something marketable, but the inadvertent side-effect of a good consultation is
>that you learn a lot about screenwriting. In fact I would dare say that if
>you're an intermediate screenwriter, you learn more about writing from a
>thorough analysis of your script than you do a screenwriting class.
I agree, but the question is - whose class? If you take certain classes
at UCLA Extension or USC (all taught by working pros), you're in damned
good hands.
>If you've ever paid a lawyer 500 bucks for 2 hours of his time, paying a great
>script consultant $400 for 8-10 hours of his/her time is a deal.
Gee, why am I charing so little?
>
>Peace,
>Jim
>Read-80-scripts-in-June, CA
Are you saying you made $32,000 in June doing this?!!!??
--
The cinema, like the detective story, makes it possible to
experience without danger all the excitement, passion and
desirousness that must be repressed in a humanitarian
ordering of life.
-- Carl Jung
Paulo Joe Jingy
wcmartell wrote:
> So I came up with an outrageous price - $350 - and put up a page on my website.
> Every once in a while someone pays me and I read their script... and that price
> looks a lot less outrageous. I end up spending about a week on the damned things.
> Reading them a couple of times, trying to figure out where they go wrong, typing
> up notes (average about 22 single spaced pages!). I think I could make more money
> working at Starbucks! Maybe I should raise my price to a grand?
>
> From the writer's POV that's a lot of money, but from the POV of the guy reading
> a script 3 times and writing pages and pages of notes it's just not enough.
I bet at least half of the people, you do this for, insist that you don't know what
the hell you're talking about and that there screenplay is *perfect*, the way it
was written.
Don't knock yourself out. You'll get more business if you write something like
this on top of their screenplays.
"You're a natural!!! This screenplay is *too* good. The studios, agents and
production companies will ignore it because of their jealousy. My only suggestion
is that you intentionally introduce some flaws, and see if that helps to get it
sold. Really--this is so great, I cry tears of inadequacy every time I look at
it!"
Just think of the repeat business.
ScriptDoctor911
>
> If you did, was it worth the $465?
TIA:
As has been referenced, Trottier's "The Screenwriter's Bible" is a solid
source for format questions. I highly recommend it and tell my students to
buy it and tell all who ask me about which books to read (to learn the game)
. . . to buy it.
Note: I believe Max Adams (EXCESS BAGGAGE; won Nicholl and AHF) studied
with Trottier before she hit the big time. And she's stated that she thinks
highly of him but doesn't (at least, as far as I've seen) go so far as to
endorse his consults . . . but she might give him a thumbs-up if asked.
Also, in the March/April issue of "Creative Screenwriting" -> they went
undercover and rated "Script Analysts." Dave Trottier was ranked # 13 out
of 17 and was given an "average" rating. There were two categories above
average, i.e., "honorable mention" (close to the top) and "the best" (the
top four consultants).
But word-of-mouth would probably be a better indicator 'cause maybe
Trottier's approach didn't fit the survey or whatever.
Plus, it should be pointed out that the very top-ranked consultant charged
$900, and another "the best" charged $1500 . . . but two other top-ranked
guys charged $450 and $500.
That old saying: "You get what you pay for." Sorta applies to these deals
if you ask me.
Also, the above comments via the posters on this have been fair. I say
check out whomever's credentials and look for success stories per their
"consults." Remember, it takes a certain talent to mentor writers, to
figure out their flaws and how to improve per each individual case . . .
i.e., not the application of broad rules of thumb which may not specifically
help a certain level of writer.
Also, when getting my MFA in screenwriting from UCLA ('92) . . . I found
that many wannabes make a tragic mistake and assume that "hot" "successful"
screenwriters can offer good advice to others.
Wrong.
Nada.
Sometimes, maybe. But when the screenwriting department brought in the
"guest" "hot" professors to teach a course . . . many times these guys/gals
didn't have the chops to transfer their talent, to transfer their craft
understanding, i.e., they were good at helping themselves but terrible at
understanding struggling writers and how to offer them insight/advice for
improvement.
Whereas the working professors, such as Richard Walter, Cynthia Whitcomb,
Lew Hunter, Hal Ackerman . . . had proven teaching skills which really could
cut through the clutter and move the writing up several levels. Indeed, it
comes from years and years of experience.
Therein, when shopping for a consultant, look for the success stories of the
scripts which have been edited by the consultants, not the success stories
of their own scripts. Apples and oranges. It takes a special talent to
edit other peoples work as compared to creating your own.
New York publishers have known this for ages. The top book editors aren't
the top bestselling authors. But the top bestselling authors know how
valuable a good editor is.
Editors are fought over. A good editor can make a book.
And, hey . . . investing in your career per a sharp edit, to me, makes more
sense than paying for blah coverage which simply states what you've written.
Coverage is not an edit. A good dialogue polish can zoom a script up to an
award category if the basic story is in place, whereas bad dialogue can sink
a script.
I recommend avoiding the coverage trap until you've nailed the best script
you can. Get it in top shape. Find a script doctor that knows what they're
doing and learn what they have to offer. A good edit is a hell-of-a-lot
cheaper that film school tuition.
Then, once the script's in great shape, consider the marketing game and
worry about coverage then.
As for me, I've worked with four screenwriters who've won national awards
per my edits. Three writers I've worked with have made the semifinals in
Nicholl. And what amazes me is that some of my students have come into my
workshops and nailed their first screenplay (number uno) and have proceeded
to grab an agent or make the semifinals in a national contest. Others
who've written a couple of scripts have inked option deals, and this year a
doctored script (made into an indie film) has its premiere.
You can check out my script-doctoring services at ->
http://www.ScriptDoctor911.com
My doctoring fees range from $260 to $520 . . . plus a $38 evaluation fee.
Good luck.
Dena Jo
> Also, in the March/April issue of "Creative Screenwriting" -> they went
> undercover and rated "Script Analysts." Dave Trottier was ranked # 13 out
> of 17 and was given an "average" rating. There were two categories above
> average, i.e., "honorable mention" (close to the top) and "the best" (the
> top four consultants).
Who ranked in the top ten?
--
Dena Jo
ICQ: 116627453
ScriptDoctor911
> Who ranked in the top ten?
D.J.:
1) Dara Marks -- $900
2) Jeff Newman -- $450
3) Paul Young -- $500
4) Hank Searls -- $1500
5) Melody Jackson -- $195
6) Peter Mellencamp -- $400
7) Lisa Cory -- $300
8) Craig Kellem -- $150
9) Barbara Schiffman -- $125
10) Ann Zald -- $250
Disclaimer: Your money's worth may vary.
http://www.ScriptDoctor911.com
SS Johny
>Are you saying you made $32,000 in June doing this?!!!??
No, Skip, just emphasizing the difference in experience between people who read
scripts for a living and those who don't. I read 80 scripts looking for
material. I think I consulted on 6 or so.
I'm a huge fan of Creative Screenwriting, but the writer of the original
Reviewing the Analysts article was at best underqualified and at worst biased.
Many of the people she liked are fantastic; I've only heard good things about
Jeff Newman and Dara Marks. But instead of just relying on that article, you
should talk to the script consultant and some of their past clients before
choosing an analyst.
Peace,
Jim
Dena Jo
--
Dena Jo
ICQ: 116627453
ScriptDoctor911wrote: