David Trottier on ellipsis and dashs
T-Bone
2 dudes go at it:
DUDE 1
This sucks, I hate it when...
DUDE 2
...when I'm right?
I want to convey Dude 2 as not only quickly cutting off Dude 1, but
finishing his thought.
Trottier says 'the dash is normally used for interruptions of thought and
the ellipsis for continuation of thought.
So, would this be correct?
DUDE 1
This sucks, I hate it when--
DUDE 2
--when I'm right?
Thanks,
TD
J. Simpson
T-Bone wrote in message ...
>I'm a bit confused...
>
>2 dudes go at it:
>
> DUDE 1
>This sucks, I hate it when...
>
> DUDE 2
>...when I'm right?
>
Looks right to me.
Jay Simpson
All men die. Few truly live.
Alan Brooks
T-Bone wrote:
> So, would this be correct?
>
> DUDE 1
> This sucks, I hate it when--
>
> DUDE 2
> --when I'm right?
You do whatever makes it read right. For me it works best like this:
DUDE 1
This sucks, I hate it when--
DUDE 2
When I'm right?
Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A schmuck with an Underwood
-- The DUDE 2 abides.
Jeff Newman
I did quite a bit of study on this, some time back.
First, I looked over numerous produced screenplays, to determine what they
seemed to be doing. There wasn't 100% consensus, but about 2/3 of them seemed
to be in agreement as to when to use an ellipsis, and when a dash.
I checked the various formatting guides available, and style guides for other
forms of writing (playwriting, fiction, and even college reports and theses).
It turns out the rules for those pretty much matched what those screenwriters
were doing (the 2/3 that were in agreement). The only difference was in the
exact spacing of the ellipsis or the dash (the screenwriting format is a bit
different). But the usage is the same.
So here it is (I'm cutting and pasting in a handout I include with my
screenplay evaluations, for when the writer is incorrect on these):
Sometimes, sentences are allowed to trail off, in which case we end with an
ellipsis, which is a series of three periods. Such a sentence would end...
like this...
An ellipsis -- the three periods mentioned above -- can come within a sentence,
to indicate a slight pause, hesitation, or a repeated word.
WRITER
When this occurs, leave a space
after the last period-point. You
know... like this.
(beat)
An ellipsis can also show...
He points to the example.
WRITER
... a sentence that, on paper, is
"interrupted" by description or a
parenthetical, but in reality,
would have no pause...
He points to the second example.
WRITER
... or at most just a slight one.
It shows that this is mid-sentence,
and that the sentence will
presently resume.
WRITER #2
When actually spoken, there would
be no pause...
WRITER
That's right!
WRITER #2
... or at most, just a tiny one.
WRITER
As we've just seen, it can even be
used when a remark from another
person briefly interrupts the
sentence...
WRITER #2
Like this?
WRITER
(getting rattled)
... but the first person just
keeps talking, or maybe pauses
only briefly, before, uh...
WRITER #2
... what? I hate it when you --
WRITER
... continuing the sentence!
Dang -- you are so...
(searches for the
right word)
... impatient! It... it really --
WRITER #2
Just shut up, will you? You're
babbling! You're --
WRITER
-- ticks me off!
Sometimes -- quite often, in some screenplays -- the dash is used. Use two
hyphens, with a space before the first and after the second.
Within a sentence, a dash shows a sharp break in thought. The original thought
may or may not resume -- if it does, put in a second dash, as in the first
sentence of the paragraph just before this one.
A dash can be used at the end of a sentence to show an abrupt cutoff, or an
interruption of a sentence that will not continue. Or it may continue, but
only after a significant pause or break in time.
Three examples of dashes showing interruptions can be seen in the dialogue
excerpt between the two writers. Two of the interruptions result in
uncompleted sentences, and one interruption temporarily halts a sentence, which
only resumes after a definite pause -- which is why a dash, rather than an
ellipsis, is used.
That's it!
Jeff Newman, StoryNotes
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StoryNotesNewsletter
http://storynotes.com
L.
<al...@sirius-software.com> wrote:
>
>T-Bone wrote:
>
>> So, would this be correct?
>>
>> DUDE 1
>> This sucks, I hate it when--
>>
>> DUDE 2
>> --when I'm right?
>
>You do whatever makes it read right. For me it works best like this:
>
> DUDE 1
> This sucks, I hate it when--
>
> DUDE 2
> When I'm right?
>
i'm with alan. i do it the same way. the ellipses,
to me, make me think dude one is pausing, looking
for the right words, and then dude 2 supplies
them. no cutting off with ellipses.
L.
Annielives
Annie
Louie Virgule
> the ellipsis for continuation of thought.
This is incorrect. An M-dash joins two elements. If you only have one
element, you can't use an M-dash.
Ellipses are used for incomplete or interrupted material.
Joe Myers
>
> This is incorrect. An M-dash joins two elements. If you only have one
> element, you can't use an M-dash.
>
> Ellipses are used for incomplete or interrupted material.
>
And damnit! No more that forty-seven angels can dance on the head of a pin!
If your screenplay is so damned fragile it lives or dies on the basis of an
ellipse or a dash, your problem ain't punctuation.
Joe Myers
"Besides, the actor will probably fuck it up."
MC
"Louie Virgule" <louiev...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
> This is incorrect. An M-dash joins two elements. If you only have one
> element, you can't use an M-dash.
And *this* is incorrect. It's an "em" dash not an "M" dash.
Jeff Newman
Not in screenwriting. Trottier is correct, in terms of what the majority of
pro screenwriters do, and what several screenplay style guides/formatting
manuals say.
Specifically, in addition to David Trottier's "Screenwriting Bible":
"Elements of Style for Screenwriters," by Paul Argentini.
"Formatting Your Screenplay," by Rich Reichman.
"How to Type Scripts," by Vicki Jones.
And while it isn't discussed, this usage is shown in examples in
"The Complete Guide to Standard Script Formats," by Cole/Haag.
And it's discussed thoroughly (with examples) in my own
"Formatting Your Speculation Script," which, although only 2/3 completed and
basically a rough draft, is available at the reference desk of the Writers
Guild Library, and is listed as one of the "50 Hot Titles in the James R. Webb
Memorial Library" (the WGA library). For proof, go to:
http://www.wga.org/manuals/50titles.html
and look under "Formatting."
See my post earlier this afternoon for more specifics as to when to use an
ellipsis and when to use a dash -- for screenwriting, that is. Other literary
forms may vary...
Louie Virgule
of eight years. I base my answer in real-world experience, where I saw the
majority of pros do it the correct way, which is not to end dialog with an
M-dash. Also, the Warner Bros. screen style manual, used by the studio word
processing department, also advises against ending dialog with an M-dash.
That's why you won't see it in any Warner Bros. scripts.
"Jeff Newman" <story...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010508233751...@ng-ct1.aol.com...
Louie Virgule
"MC" <copeS...@total.net> wrote in message
news:copeSPAMZAP-3D1F...@news.total.net...
> In article <YX1K6.198$Ak7....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Louie Virgule" <louiev...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > This is incorrect. An M-dash joins two elements. If you only have one
> > element, you can't use an M-dash.
According to whom? The Chicago Manual of Style refers repeatedly to the
M-dash. Why? Because the M-dash is the width of the capitalized M.
Louie Virgule
"Joe Myers" <very...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9dab9f$2g9$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> If your screenplay is so damned fragile it lives or dies on the basis of
an
> ellipse or a dash, your problem ain't punctuation.
An excellent point. No one really cares. The point is to be consistent and
unobtrusive with style and format issues and that's all that's necessary.
Content is all. If it ain't on the page, formatting per this book or style
per that book means bum diddly squat.
Paulo Joe Jingy
Louie Virgule wrote:
No sense getting in a pissing match. MC is right on this. So are you.
Main Entry: em
Pronunciation: 'em
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : the letter m
2 : the width of a piece of type about as wide as it is tall used as a unit
of measure of typeset matter
-------
Main Entry: en
Pronunciation: 'en
Function: noun
Date: 1792
1 : the width of a piece of type half the width of an em
2 : the letter n
-------
I worked in print shops. And in print shops they are quite definitely called
*em* and *en* dashes. In handset type we also had *em spaces* and *en
spaces*. But I can see why the Chicago Manual of Style corrupted the
original way the words were written.
Peace.
Paulo
Jeff Newman
I'll take your word for it that the Warner Bros style guide advises against
ending dialogue with a dash ("em" or otherwise).
When I first looked into this ... both for my own guide book and for my own
writing (so as to do what the majority of pro writers were doing), I looked at
well over 100 scripts (not just for that) when at the Writers Guild and Academy
libraries, and something like 2/3 to 3/4 of them used ellipses and dashes in
the way I described and showed in my post.
Including using a dash -- at the end of dialogue -- to indicate an interruption
or being cut off.
I just now pulled the first 25 scripts from my own collection. These aren't
reformatted, as in books or Scenario magazine. They are photocopies of
produced screenplays (with one exception: a purchased, in-development spec
script).
In 21 of the 25 scripts, the ellipses and dashes were used in the manner I
described. Including a dash at the end of dialogue to indicate the sentence
being cut off.
For the record, those 21 (of 25) scripts are:
Get Shorty
Witness
Pulp Fiction
Basic Instinct
Titanic
In the Line of Fire
Pathfinder
Die Hard
Speed
Jurassic Park
The Cure
Mission Impossible
Star Trek VI
Chinatown
Silence of the Lambs
War Games
Toy Story
Tootsie
Terminator 2
Field of Dreams
Back to the Future
Now I realize 25 scripts is a small sample. Still, it's a totally random
sample, and it includes some well-known scripts. 84% used the ellipses and
dashes in the way I said.
In one of the 4 that didn't (Thelma and Louise) the writer felt compelled to
add a parenthetical when an ellipsis was used for an interruption saying
(interrupting).
That's why the dash at the end of dialogue is used -- to differentiate between
a sentence that trails off and one that is cut off. So that no parenthetical
is needed.
A sample of several hundred might bring that percentage down somewhat. But
probably not below 2/3.
I will agree that -- of course -- content comes first. And that most readers
probably wouldn't notice this one way or another. And they certainly wouldn't
reject a script that was wonderful even if they DID notice and felt the writer
was doing this wrong.
Still ... pre-pros like to do things the way that the majority of pros do.
Even many pros like to do things like this -- formatting issues -- the way the
majority do ... the way that looks industry-standard.
And based on my research in the past and just now, they do it in the manner I
described in my previous post.
Challenge to others (who care even in the slightest, or who are just curious):
take 10 scripts at random from your collection, and check for yourself.
For those who have joined this thread in progress, here is a re-posting of my
prior post, which was a reply to someone's question on the subject:
Re ellipses (plural for ellipsis) and dashes...
I did quite a bit of study on this, some time back.
First, I looked over numerous produced screenplays, to determine what they
seemed to be doing. There wasn't 100% consensus, but about 2/3 of them seemed
to be in agreement as to when to use an ellipsis, and when a dash.
I also checked the various formatting guides available, and style guides for
WRITER
That's right!
WRITER #2
Like this?
That's it!
Jeff Newman, StoryNotes
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StoryNotesNewsletter
http://storynotes.com
GenJerDan
> No sense getting in a pissing match. MC is right on this. So are you.
> I worked in print shops. And in print shops they are quite definitely called
> *em* and *en* dashes. In handset type we also had *em spaces* and *en
> spaces*. But I can see why the Chicago Manual of Style corrupted the
> original way the words were written.
Well, hell, they are usually called "em" and "en" because it's more
obvious how to pronounce them than if they were written out "m" and
"n", but they *are* referring to the letters in both cases.
--
Daniel J. Wojcik
http://www.genjerdan.com/bfp/lmp/lmp.htm
MIDImage
Anthony Stephens
I would simply use a parenthetical here - it's one of the times it seems to
make sense
DUDE 1
This sucks, I hate it when--
DUDE 2
(quickly interrupting)
--when I'm right?
Or perhaps
DUDE 2
(completing the thought)
--when I'm right?
Clarity above all.
derek
A useful guide for using the em dash is that it is similar in use to
parenthesis -- they are virtually interchangeable.
But, since we're splitting heirs, why use an elipsis here, instead of a
comma:
> When I first looked into this ... both for my own guide book and for my own
> writing (so as to do what the majority of pro writers were doing), I looked at
And why use the em dash in this sentence:
> Including using a dash -- at the end of dialogue -- to indicate an
interruption
and this one:
> I will agree that -- of course -- content comes first. And that most readers
and the elipsis here:
I presume you are just using them by way of example, but in context they
seem incorrect. I'm not an expert on any of these things so I ask from a
position of complete, unadulterated ignorance.
MC
"Louie Virgule" <louiev...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
> I was a CE at Fox and at Warner Bros. and then at three prodcos for a
> total of eight years. I base my answer in real-world experience, where I saw
> the majority of pros do it the correct way, which is not to end dialog with
> an M-dash. Also, the Warner Bros. screen style manual, used by the studio
> word processing department, also advises against ending dialog with an M-dash.
> That's why you won't see it in any Warner Bros. scripts.
The convention in screenwriting ( I won't call it a "rule") is that you
don't do anything that you can't do on a manual typewriter. So that may
be why an M dash (or an em dash) isn't kosher.
Skip Press
In article <20010509031003...@ng-fv1.aol.com>,
story...@aol.com (Jeff Newman) wrote:
--
To get random signatures put text files into a folder called ³Random
Signatures² into your Preferences folder.
Greg Beal
of pro scripts that I've looked at over the years use -- as a method of signifying
an interruption.
On the other hand, the correct way to type an ellipses is with a space separating
each of the periods thusly . . . as opposed to ...
I'll admit, in my unscientific survey, more screenwriters use ... than . . .
But it's much closer than the dash / ellipses usage for interruptions.
As was stated above, less concern about this type of stuff and more about creating
engaging characters and intriguing stories would benefit most writers.
BTW, I have this dim memory of you posting margins somewhere. Does your guide
agree with Trottier's on the .5 inch right margin?
If not, then it doesn't matter.
If so, what happens to a script when a printer shifts the entire page over a few
tenths to the right or when a photocopier enlarges the copy slightly and then the
next copy is enlarged slightly again, etc.? Doesn't the writer using a .5 inch
right margin risk having words bump against or even drift off the right side of the
page? Which seems a larger problem than the usage of an ellipses or a dash.
Louie Virgule
> I just now pulled the first 25 scripts from my own collection. These
aren't
> reformatted, as in books or Scenario magazine. They are photocopies of
> produced screenplays (with one exception: a purchased, in-development
spec
> script).
>
> In 21 of the 25 scripts, the ellipses and dashes were used in the manner I
> described.
I pulled some of those same scripts off my shelf. I see that the writers
also incorrectly punctuated with commas and periods outside of quotes,
misspelled words, and confused "to" and "too."
So consider the source.
MC
"Louie Virgule" <louiev...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
> I see that the writers
> also incorrectly punctuated with commas and periods outside of quotes
Depends where you are. In the UK. for example, it isn't incorrect --
howevaire, I notice they are increasingly coming around to the US
convention in newspapers -- I assume because so much copy is shared
these days and it makes sense to standardize it.
How about spaces before and after the em-dashes? It's the traditional
way, and the most common US way, not to put in a space either side of an
the em-dash, but it isn't incorrect to use them, and much depends on the
house style. I put in spaces on line, just seems a bit clearer. I don't
in copy for publication -- unless the house style requires it, and I
don't use em-dashes at all in scripts, on the grounds that you can't do
then with a manual typewriter; I use double hyphens instead.
Annie Darek
Annie
MC
annie...@cs.comnoSPAMz (Annie Darek) wrote:
> New dope (me) wonders -- what is an em dash?
A long dash逆hat was one right there! Though whether you can see it
depends on your e-mail app and the font you use.
Jeff Newman
dash to indicate an interruption or sharp cutoff.
Clearly, a majority of screenwriters use it. But are they just being sloppy?
Are they in the majority, but technically incorrect? Surprisingly, no -- they
are following long-established and sanctioned usage.
Details in a moment (ooh, the suspense!), but first...
Derek --
You're right. It was after midnight. And I didn't put aside and edit the
message. And since we were speaking of ellipses and dashes, I decided to strew
them liberally in my remarks, almost as a jest. I figured the dialogue section
below all that and the explanatory material just above and below the dialogue
would be the official "this is the right way" stuff.
But, of course, the earlier, unnecessary, and frivolous usage merely clouds and
confuses the issue. Mea culpa. Good catch, and good point.
And yes, the main usage for dashes are rather like parentheses, within a
sentence. Dashes are used instead, sometimes, for emphasis -- and to show that
the words within are too important to be used within mere parentheses. But it
can also be used (as in the last sentence) to connect a phrase or clause to the
rest of the sentence.
BUT: can it, properly and correctly, be used at the *end* of a sentence? To
show an interruption? Yes. Read on.
Late last night, while most of the Pacific Coast (wisely) slumbered...
I wondered if this were a recent convention, a relaxation of rules. But no,
the "Citizen Kane" screenplay used it.
I then checked my play collection, and discovered that nearly all playwrights
ALSO use end-sentence dashes to indicated a cut-off or interruption.
Including Tennessee Williams in "The Glass Menagerie" and "A Streetcar Named
Desire," Eugene O'Neill in "Long Day's Journey Into Night," and Arthur Miller
in "Death of a Salesman." And even a certain William Shakespeare in "Hamlet,"
and many others.
Okay. So ... not a new convention. The majority of playwrights, including the
biggies, do it. And have for decades. Centuries, even.
I also checked my old scripts for some musicals I was in years back --
photocopies of the actual actor's scripts from Tams-Witmark and Music Theatre
International for shows like "The Roar of the Greasepaint," and "A Funny Thing
Happened..." And they used end-sentence dashes for cut-offs, too.
So I checked my collection of novels and short stories. And it turns out that
in each one I looked at, I found examples of dialogue where sentences ended
with a dash, in situations where the speaker abruptly stopped speaking or was
interrupted.
Authors such as John Cheever, Phillip Roth, Hemingway, Faulkner, Greene, Twain.
Even in poems that featured dialogue, such as in Robert Frost's "Death of a
Hired Man."
Surely writers of this stature -- and their editors -- wouldn't allow an overly
casual, frivolous, loosey-goosey use of the dash at the end of dialogue?
So I decided to check my style guides. I don't have the Chicago Manual of
Style. But I have some good ones.
Sabin's "The Gregg Reference Manual":
"To indicate an abrupt break..." And it shows an example of an end-sentence
use in dialogue.
The Perrin "Writer's Guide and Index to English" states that, among other uses,
the dash is used "as an end stop in dialog when a speech is interrupted," and
then gives an example.
And in "The Handbook of Good English," by E. Johnson -- highly praised by
language stylist William Safire -- there's a half page under the heading "The
dash to indicate interruption," where examples are given, and it states:
"The dash is properly used to show interruptions in dialogue, whether another
speaker does the interrupting or the original speaker cuts off sharply."
It goes on to say:
"Some writers use points of ellipsis -- three dots -- to indicate
interruptions. Points of ellipsis are better used to indicate pauses in
mid-sentence or sentences that trail off; they are not emphatic enough to
indicate interruption and in fact almost contradict the desired effect."
So ... I rest my case.
Yes, one could use a parenthetical to say (interrupting) or (cuts him off).
But why waste space and add extra words to read? More ink to the page? Very
few screenwriters do that (or playwrights, or novelists). Because it's not
necessary. They use the end-sentence dash instead.
WRITER
When a roomful of famous authors,
playwrights, screenwriters, and style
manuals --
WRITER #2
Look, just... let it rest, will you?
So taking their advice, I will.
ManhattanEET
>*em* and *en* dashes.
When used together: Eminem dashes?
(or is that what Elton Jonh did after the Grammys?)
------------------
Annie Darek
I can't see it, but I guess I did it. Thanks!
Annie
Jeff Newman
Yes, according to style guides for every other field other than screenwriting,
one is supposed to space the three dots within an ellipsis, as well as before
and after . . . like that. But... screenwriting tradition has long used no
initial space, nor any space between dots. So... might as well go with the
majority. It's a Hollywood quirk.
Glad to see that your observations confirm mine that the "overwhelming majority
of pro scripts" (quoting you) use end-of-sentence dashes in dialogue to signify
cutoffs or interruptions.
By the way, Hollywood is quirky with the formatting of dashes, too. In most
other fields--academic papers, journalism, fiction--the dash, when typed, has
no space before or after. But in screenplays -- as you well know -- there *is*
a space, both before and after. So when in Rome...
Re margins: I disagree with David Trottier on having a .5 right margin. For
three reasons.
1. The reason you said. It can lead to the last letter or two being cut off
due to photocopying practices. Very serious stuff, definitely to be avoided.
2. It makes the page look too crowded, too full, too unattractive. And as
though you're cheating. And in fact, it only saves about 2 pages overall. Not
worth it.
3. It's at the far edge of the window of industry acceptability, as set by
long-established practice, numerous formatting guides (such as Cole/Haag) and
the Universal and Warners style guides, which call for a one-inch right margin.
And most software formatting programs call for a 1" (or even 1.25") right
margin.
The right margin should be one inch -- or at the least, .8 or .7, if going to
one inch would mean 121 vs. 120 pages. But no less. For the three reasons
given above.
1.5 left (or even 1.7 -- it only adds a page).
1.0 right (or maybe .8)
Simple.
Joe Myers
"MC" <copeS...@total.net> wrote
>
> The convention in screenwriting ( I won't call it a "rule") is that you
> don't do anything that you can't do on a manual typewriter. So that may
> be why an M dash (or an em dash) isn't kosher.
Well, of course. And the little tangents as to whether it's an n-dash or
en-dash or em dash or "N" dash, none of which has any relevance in a
non-proportional font like Courier, proves that a thread needn't be Off
Topic to be tedious.
Joe Myers
"There are many ways to skin
a cat. But first, you need a cat."
Paulo Joe Jingy
Jeff Newman wrote:
> WRITER
> When a roomful of famous authors,
> playwrights, screenwriters, and style
> manuals --
>
> WRITER #2
> Look, just... let it rest, will you?
>
> So taking their advice, I will.
>
> Jeff Newman, StoryNotes
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StoryNotesNewsletter
> http://storynotes.com
Let it rest? Screw that! This has now become my reason for living. We need to
form sides and go on unending rants about this subject. We need to make people so
sick of it that they'll *beg* for off topic posts about white supremacy.
Since your way is the way I've done it in my screenplays--of course I agree with
you.
Except...I didn't put spaces in:
When a roomful of famous authors,
playwrights, screenwriters, and style
manuals--
...instead of:
When a roomful of famous authors,
playwrights, screenwriters, and style
manuals --
Are my screenplays now doomed?
But seriously--thanks for the research.
...or is that?
But seriously -- thanks for the research.
...or?
But seriously, thanks for the research.
...maybe?
But seriously...thanks for the research.
...but not.
But seriously . . . thanks for the research.
Paulo
-----
Just a dumb ass that aspires to be a smart ass.
Paulo Joe Jingy
GenJerDan wrote:
> Well, hell, they are usually called "em" and "en" because it's more
> obvious how to pronounce them than if they were written out "m" and
> "n", but they *are* referring to the letters in both cases.
>
> --
> Daniel J. Wojcik
> http://www.genjerdan.com/bfp/lmp/lmp.htm
>
> MIDImage
As usual, I have trouble making a point.
Which is...Paulo?
*em* has been used since the 13th century.
*en* since 1792 (apparently).
They predate the Chicago Manual of Style.
When ordering handset type they are called *em* and *en* dashes and spaces.
And that's more than anyone wants to know about this subject.
Paulo
Louie Virgule
> In article <QPcK6.183$8x4....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Louie Virgule" <louiev...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
> Depends where you are. In the UK. for example, it isn't incorrect --
Yes. In Upper Volta they use something else all together, probably.
Hollywood is the capitol of the movie world. Yes, some people will scream
and wail about that, but since more spec scripts are submitted in Hollywood
than anywhere else, those wailers can take their multiculturalism and stuff
it then rush off to the Icelandic Film Festival.
> How about spaces before and after the em-dashes? It's the traditional
> way, and the most common US way, not to put in a space either side of an
> the em-dash
In typeset copy, yes. In type manuscript, no. You're supposed to leave
spaces -- per the Chicago Manual of Style -- and I always do.
>howevaire, I notice
Is "howevaire" some new hands-across-the-Channel Brit spelling?
Louie Virgule
"ManhattanEET" <manhat...@aol.comNADASPAM> wrote in message
news:20010509115002...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
> >And in print shops they are quite definitely called
> >*em* and *en* dashes.
>
> When used together: Eminem dashes?
The correct term is "enema dashes."
Michael Dines
> Hi, Greg --
>
> Yes, according to style guides for every other field other than screenwriting,
> one is supposed to space the three dots within an ellipsis, as well as before
> and after . . . like that. But... screenwriting tradition has long used no
> initial space, nor any space between dots. So... might as well go with the
> majority. It's a Hollywood quirk.
The reason for screenwriters not spacing the points in an ellipsis is
that they type their scripts in Courier, a mono-spaced font which
provides plenty of white space between the points, put an extra space
and you get too much.
However, type your script in Times or any other variable character width
font and see what it look like if you don't space the points of the
ellipsis. [HINT: It looks like a three-dot leader]
Paulo Joe Jingy
Louie Virgule wrote:
There you go MC. You're obviously a fuck up that'll never work in the
*business*. ;)
Oh, by the way the Louie, I don't think that there is any kind of channel--Brit
or otherwise--between the U.S. and Canada.
And everyone knows that the "Chicago Manual of Style" is the last word on
*everything!* Mine sits on an altar at my house. I worship it, daily!
MC
"Louie Virgule" <louiev...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hollywood is the capitol of the movie world. Yes, some people will scream
> and wail about that, but since more spec scripts are submitted in
> Hollywood than anywhere else, those wailers can take their multiculturalism and
> stuff it then rush off to the Icelandic Film Festival.
>
> > How about spaces before and after the em-dashes? It's the traditional
> > way, and the most common US way, not to put in a space either side of
> > an the em-dash
>
> In typeset copy, yes. In type manuscript, no. You're supposed to leave
> spaces -- per the Chicago Manual of Style -- and I always do.
It's not the only style manual out there. When in doubt, I use the
Associated Press manual for the excellent reason that it's the one I
happen to have.
But when it comes to paying work, I use whatever the client wants. He
wants "percent" and a space before and after a dash? Fine by me.
>
> >howevaire, I notice
>
> Is "howevaire" some new hands-across-the-Channel Brit spelling?
Nope. Just a bit of phrench-inspired phonetic phun. Perhaps inspired by
the comma in your name..
MC
<phant...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> There you go MC. You're obviously a fuck up that'll never work in the
> *business*. ;)
Shit. I might as well go home, then.
>
> Oh, by the way the Louie, I don't think that there is any kind of
> channel--Brit or otherwise--between the U.S. and Canada.
More like a ditch.
>
> And everyone knows that the "Chicago Manual of Style" is the last word on
> *everything!* Mine sits on an altar at my house. I worship it, daily!
Yeah, but does it list Hollywood as the "capital" or as the "capitol" of
the film industry? I think we should be told. if it really is the
capitol, then we've all been sending scripts to the wrong building..
Richard Milton
>
>"MC" <copeS...@total.net> wrote
>>
>> The convention in screenwriting ( I won't call it a "rule") is that you
>> don't do anything that you can't do on a manual typewriter. So that may
>> be why an M dash (or an em dash) isn't kosher.
>
>Well, of course. And the little tangents as to whether it's an n-dash or
>en-dash or em dash or "N" dash, none of which has any relevance in a
>non-proportional font like Courier, proves that a thread needn't be Off
>Topic to be tedious.
Ahem. Far be it from me to join in a thread in which Joe Myers has
decided to shake his walking stick at the thimbleriggers and
lollygaggers of mws for wasting his valuable time. However . . .
In any font (proportional or non-proportional and including Courier
and its variants) the en dash is always used to represent a hyphen
while the m dash (two consecutive n dashes) is always used to
denote a dash. Many tyepsetting programs will convert two
consecutive n dashes automatically into an m dash in the chosen
typeface.
>Joe Myers
>"There are many ways to skin
>a cat. But first, you need a cat."
Richard
"There are many ways to skin a cat.
But there is only one try per cat."
derek
> Derek --
>
> You're right. It was after midnight. And I didn't put aside and edit the
> message. And since we were speaking of ellipses and dashes, I decided to
strew
> them liberally in my remarks, almost as a jest. I figured the dialogue
section
> below all that and the explanatory material just above and below the dialogue
> would be the official "this is the right way" stuff.
Whew, Jeff, I barely have time to read the long posts, let alone write
one. I can only assume some of you are *much* faster typists than I. ;)
But yes, I did see you were partly tongue in cheek with some of the
examples.
> I then checked my play collection, and discovered that nearly all playwrights
> ALSO use end-sentence dashes to indicated a cut-off or interruption.
The nice thing about it is that it looks right and the meaning is easily
inferred even without knowing the rule.
cheers
Iguana
For them what don't know me, working actor here... wanted to put in a word.
For lots of us, spec scripts are the norm. But for actors rapidly reading
a script in production, the dash can be a help. It can certainly be
overused, mind you. While not all pro scripts use the ellipses vs dash
convention, I've never known actors not to understand it when properly
used.
T.
Louie Virgule <louiev...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in article
<tX3K6.565$Ak7....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>
> "Joe Myers" <very...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:9dab9f$2g9$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> > If your screenplay is so damned fragile it lives or dies on the basis
of
> an
> > ellipse or a dash, your problem ain't punctuation.
>
> An excellent point. No one really cares. The point is to be consistent
and
> unobtrusive with style and format issues and that's all that's necessary.
> Content is all. If it ain't on the page, formatting per this book or
style
> per that book means bum diddly squat.
>
>
>
Louie Virgule
"Paulo Joe Jingy" <phant...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:3AF839E1...@my-deja.com...
> And everyone knows that the "Chicago Manual of Style" is the last word on
> *everything!*
The Chicago Manual of Style is the standard style book for all of publishing
and academia.
Louie Virgule
"Jeri Jo Thomas" <kata...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.15636d799...@news.earthlink.net...
> Annie Darek said ...
>
> Q:New dope (me) wonders -- what is an em dash?
> Q:Annie
> Q:
> This is an em-dash: — and this is an en-dash: –.
>
> They're actually created by holding down the alt key and tapping
> 0151 for the em-dash and 0150 for the en-dash on the keypad, not
> the row numbers.
— –
It works! Totally cool. What other keyboard tricks do you know?
derek
> It works! Totally cool. What other keyboard tricks do you know?
If you squeeze the end of a straw so it's partly flattened, you can suck
most of the diet Pepsi out from between the keys.
MC
<der...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> > It works! Totally cool. What other keyboard tricks do you know?
>
> If you squeeze the end of a straw so it's partly flattened, you can suck
> most of the diet Pepsi out from between the keys
But if it's already been in there long enough to congeal, you can
liquefy it with a couple of squirts of warm tap water.
Annie Darek
> most of the diet Pepsi out from between the keys
>>But if it's already been in there long enough to congeal, you can
>>liquefy it with a couple of squirts of warm tap water.
Yeah, but there's that orange powder janitors use to clean up --
Well, anyway, sprinkle that powder into the keyboard, give it a few minutes,
then blow it out with a straw. Keyboard smells nice too.
Annie
Aubrey Brown
> > most of the diet Pepsi out from between the keys
>
> But if it's already been in there long enough to congeal, you can
> liquefy it with a couple of squirts of warm tap water.
Ewl! That's NASTY. Everybody knows that regular Pepsi is the only thing
worth drinking!
Aubrey
MC
<z1zK6.14709$4f7.1...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Aubrey
Brown" <aubrey...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > But if it's already been in there long enough to congeal, you can
> > liquefy it with a couple of squirts of warm tap water.
>
> Ewl! That's NASTY. Everybody knows that regular Pepsi is the only thing
> worth drinking!
Sorry everyone. I was thinking of *blood* not diet Pepsi.
Michael Dines
> Just de-lurking for a nonce,
>
> For them what don't know me, working actor here... wanted to put in a word.
>
> For lots of us, spec scripts are the norm. But for actors rapidly reading
> a script in production, the dash can be a help. It can certainly be
> overused, mind you. While not all pro scripts use the ellipses vs dash
> convention, I've never known actors not to understand it when properly
> used.
>
And what makes you think any of the scripts they're talking about here
will ever get far enough to be seen by actors?
[Putting asbestos suiton now]
Michael Dines
> The Chicago Manual of Style is the standard style book for all of publishing
> and academia.
I must remember to tell that to the Oxford University Press.
MC
michae...@cableinet.co.uk (Michael Dines) wrote:
> > The Chicago Manual of Style is the standard style book for all of
> > publishing and academia.
>
> I must remember to tell that to the Oxford University Press
And don't forget to tell every newspaper that has its own style book.