Should SEPTA Regional Rail trains have toilets?
Lisa
board. A few of the cars once did, but they have been closed up.
Years ago, the typical Phila commuter ride was pretty short--3 branches
were only a half hour within city limits.
But today, many more commuters come from farther out, for instance
Yardley and Langhorne in Bucks County, and Downingtown in Chester
County. Plus, people are taking long journeys thanks to the connections
the c/c tunnel offers.
Exile on Market Street
>
> Lisa (hanc...@cpcn.com) writes:[SEPTA Regional Rail trains should have toilets, because passengers are now
traveling farther on them]
> How long would a passenger typically be on the train? The maximum is not
> of interest if there are only a couple of daily trains doing this, or few
> passengers riding end-to-end. How long would be the "maximum" that a
> significant number of passengers would ride?
I think that the number of suburb-to-suburb through-riders via the commuter
tunnel is still a very small portion of Regional Rail ridership, but there
are a few branches where one can be on board for up to an hour (R5 to
Parkesburg, ~45 miles; R3 West Trenton and R7 Trenton, ~35 miles; R2 will
join this group once service to Newark, Del., resumes later this year).
Actually, a few of the Bombardier loco-hauled coaches are equipped with
wheelchair-accessible toilets, and these usually see service on the
Parkesburg runs. We were supposed to have one such car on the SEPTA train
that took us to Harrisburg (102 miles by rail) yesterday for a lobbying day,
but a power failure in Chester County left that train stranded, so we had to
use one with no restrooms. Instead, we spent 20 minutes in Lancaster for a
bathroom break in the morning. (The restroom-equipped train did make it to
H'burg in time for the return trip -- and our morning consist departed,
empty, just a few minutes ahead of it.)
____________________________________________________________________________
Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
Univ of Pennsylvania, News and Public Affairs 215.898.1423/fax 215.898.1203
I speak for myself here, not Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
My home page is updated infrequently. The News Office Home Page has new
stuff every week. Drop by http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/. Feedback on
either is always welcome.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Colin R. Leech
How long would a passenger typically be on the train? The maximum is not
of interest if there are only a couple of daily trains doing this, or few
passengers riding end-to-end. How long would be the "maximum" that a
significant number of passengers would ride?
--
##### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag...@freenet.carleton.ca
##### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
##### > Canada < Opinions are my own. Consider them shareware if you want.
##### >_./|\._< "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown
Lisa
train. Now I suspect it is more like 45 minutes since more people are
commuting from further out.
Jason R. Decesare
In a previous article, ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) says:
>
>Lisa (hanc...@cpcn.com) writes:
>> SEPTA's (Phila) commuter railroad trains do not have any restrooms on
>> board. A few of the cars once did, but they have been closed up.
>>
>> Years ago, the typical Phila commuter ride was pretty short--3 branches
>> were only a half hour within city limits.
>>
>> But today, many more commuters come from farther out, for instance
>> Yardley and Langhorne in Bucks County, and Downingtown in Chester
>> County. Plus, people are taking long journeys thanks to the connections
>> the c/c tunnel offers.
>
>How long would a passenger typically be on the train? The maximum is not
>of interest if there are only a couple of daily trains doing this, or few
>passengers riding end-to-end. How long would be the "maximum" that a
>significant number of passengers would ride?
Colin, no matter if the ride is long or short, some of us find that the
washrooms on the train are needed at times. I found them particulary needed
when I was taking short trips on the Harlem Line.
-Jason
--
"If the New York City subways were subsidized to the same level as PATH trains
are subsidized, no one would pay a single penny to ride on the New York City
subway system and everybody would be given a free newspaper and a free cup of
coffee." -Mayor Rudi Giuliani, quoted in the New York Times 9/26/95
Matt Conrad
> I don't know jack about Philadelphia, but bathrooms should be
>installed on trains.
>
> However, the train had better be stable, if people have to use it
>during transit. I am referring to men only now: Have you ever tried
>urinating on a Greyhound bus while the bus is in motion? Because, it
>wouldn't look good anywhere if the last man who used the bathroom, due to
>the rocky ride of trains, if someone "Painted a Piss-casso".
>
>What a Canadian said after playing Champions of the Galaxy:
>
>"It kicked serious arse!"
Most of the RR car restroom I've been in didn't have room to miss!
--
-Matt Conrad
J.M.Conrad Co.
Prividing fine art and Mac software for train nuts like myself
This tag line conforms to FRA Class 2 or better - which is TOO DAMN SLOW!
Herc Wad
Colin R. Leech
Jason R. Decesare (fl...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) writes:
> Colin, no matter if the ride is long or short, some of us find that the
> washrooms on the train are needed at times. I found them particulary needed
> when I was taking short trips on the Harlem Line.
I disagree. Washrooms are a significant maintenance expense, and not
primary to the task of running a transit system, unless passengers have a
long (say, 1 hour) commute on the same vehicle. There are much better
things to spend your money on, such as increased service frequency.
Charles Hobbs
Colin R. Leech (ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:
> Jason R. Decesare (fl...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) writes:
>> Colin, no matter if the ride is long or short, some of us find that the
>> washrooms on the train are needed at times. I found them particulary needed
>> when I was taking short trips on the Harlem Line.
>
> I disagree. Washrooms are a significant maintenance expense, and not
> primary to the task of running a transit system, unless passengers have a
> long (say, 1 hour) commute on the same vehicle. There are much better
> things to spend your money on, such as increased service frequency.
I remmember someone advocating for washrooms on (get this) city buses,
such as those on Wilshire Bl. in Los Angeles. His point was that many people
spend up to an hour on that bus.
In my opinion, it would be more a target for vandals . . .
Bob Scheurle
>> Colin, no matter if the ride is long or short, some of us find that the
>> washrooms on the train are needed at times.
>
>primary to the task of running a transit system, unless passengers have a
>long (say, 1 hour) commute on the same vehicle.
One afternoon during a <1 hour trip on the Raritan Valley Line, I
suddenly got sick. I was very glad that NJT trains have bathrooms.
I'm sure the other passengers (and the maintenance person who would
have had to clean up the mess) was even happier than I was.
--
Bob Scheurle
sche...@eclipse.net
sche...@itt.com
NJ Assoc of RR Passengers at http://www.eclipse.net/~scheurle/njarp
Jason R. Decesare
In a previous article, ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) says:
>
>Jason R. Decesare (fl...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) writes:
>> Colin, no matter if the ride is long or short, some of us find that the
>> washrooms on the train are needed at times. I found them particulary needed
>> when I was taking short trips on the Harlem Line.
>
>I disagree. Washrooms are a significant maintenance expense, and not
>primary to the task of running a transit system, unless passengers have a
>long (say, 1 hour) commute on the same vehicle. There are much better
>things to spend your money on, such as increased service frequency.
Colin,
I was making a point that sometimes the presence of washrooms, even on
rides shorter than an hour, make things better for every one.
The time between Grand Central and North White Plains, the extent of
elecrified territory on the Harlem Line takes about a maximum of 50 minutes.
Simalarly on the Hudson Line the trip in electrifed territory, between GCT
and Croton-Harmon takes about a maximum of 60 minutes.
Also, only every other car.
-Jason
--
NYC metro area transit phone numbers at:
http://www.k2nesoft.com/subway/phones/index.html
Part of the NYC Subway Resources Pages
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pour entrer, placez votre jeton dans la fente du tourniquet et marchez au
travers." -From the August 1994 NYC Subway Map, multilingual version
Lisa
tunately I was on a Newtown bound RDC which did have restrooms (the
RDG's MU cars did not.)
IMHO, given SEPTA's longer runs, if possible restrooms should be
offered. As the Bombardier trains tend to operate on longer runs, the
restrooms on those cars should be opened.
Colin R. Leech
Jason R. Decesare (fl...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) writes:
> In a previous article, ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) says:
>
>>Jason R. Decesare (fl...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) writes:
>>> Colin, no matter if the ride is long or short, some of us find that the
>>> washrooms on the train are needed at times. I found them particulary needed
>>> when I was taking short trips on the Harlem Line.
>>
>>I disagree. Washrooms are a significant maintenance expense, and not
>>primary to the task of running a transit system, unless passengers have a
>>long (say, 1 hour) commute on the same vehicle. There are much better
>>things to spend your money on, such as increased service frequency.
>
> rides shorter than an hour, make things better for every one.
And I was making the point that they are expensive to maintain, with
little benefit. That money can be better spent elsewhere.
> The time between Grand Central and North White Plains, the extent of
> elecrified territory on the Harlem Line takes about a maximum of 50 minutes.
> Simalarly on the Hudson Line the trip in electrifed territory, between GCT
> and Croton-Harmon takes about a maximum of 60 minutes.
Then put washrooms in GCT.
--
##### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag...@freenet.carleton.ca
##### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
##### > < Opinions are my own. Consider them shareware if you want.
M Greene
> I don't know jack about Philadelphia, but bathrooms should be
> installed on trains.
>
> However, the train had better be stable, if people have to use it
> during transit. I am referring to men only now: Have you ever tried
> urinating on a Greyhound bus while the bus is in motion? Because, it
> wouldn't look good anywhere if the last man who used the bathroom, due to
> the rocky ride of trains, if someone "Painted a Piss-casso".
>
Yes, I have. I also lost a walkman in one. But anyway, it
could always be worse: they could use open-hopper toilets(in other words,
you can look down to the tracks through the opening;imagine what a
track walker could discover;I think there may be a newsgroup for such
discoveries, but I'll pass on it.).
Of course, if SEPTA's proposed Schuylkill Valley Metro should
become a reality, there could be a need for restrooms on LRV's...
Later
Michael T. Greene
Anthony Smith
> Of course, if SEPTA's proposed Schuylkill Valley Metro should
>become a reality, there could be a need for restrooms on LRV's...
Please explain this plan?
your pal Marc
: I disagree. Washrooms are a significant maintenance expense, and not
: primary to the task of running a transit system, unless passengers have a
: long (say, 1 hour) commute on the same vehicle. There are much better
: things to spend your money on, such as increased service frequency.
On a transit system, you might be able to get get off at a stop, use the
toilet, and get on the next train or bus. With commuter rail, the
headways are too long for this approach to be practical, and unless you
have a commuter ticket, the fares are too high.
ypM is Marc Mednick
--
Daniel Casey
: Please explain this plan?
SEPTA has a harebrained idea (nothing new there) to convert the R6 into
some sort of light rail line a la Norristown. In Center City, it would
run as a street trolley.
The proposal hopes to extend it as far as Reading so you can spend as
much time as possible in a small, uncomfortable light rail car, only to
get downtown and spend another fifteen minutes chugging around on the
street.
--
Dan "new york for the new yorkers" Casey
dca...@mail.sas.upenn.edu
John Kolassa
stations with open restrooms.
--
Thanks, John Kolassa, kol...@bio1.bst.rochester.edu
Larry Gould
>: primary to the task of running a transit system, unless passengers have a
>: long (say, 1 hour) commute on the same vehicle. There are much better
>: things to spend your money on, such as increased service frequency.
>On a transit system, you might be able to get get off at a stop, use the
>toilet, and get on the next train or bus. With commuter rail, the
>headways are too long for this approach to be practical, and unless you
>have a commuter ticket, the fares are too high.
& Don't forget about crews. On-board toilets can forestall the need to
install crew toilets at terminal stations and/or keep crews from
wandering off property to find toilets and/or reduce the duration of
"emergency" stops on the road.
Colin R. Leech
John Kolassa (kol...@genesee.bst.rochester.edu) writes:
> In article <4faa7r$m...@panix2.panix.com> ma...@panix.com (your pal Marc) writes:
>>Colin R. Leech (ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
>>
>>: primary to the task of running a transit system, unless passengers have a
>>: long (say, 1 hour) commute on the same vehicle. There are much better
>>: things to spend your money on, such as increased service frequency.
>>
>>On a transit system, you might be able to get get off at a stop, use the
>>toilet, and get on the next train or bus. With commuter rail, the
>>headways are too long for this approach to be practical, and unless you
>>have a commuter ticket, the fares are too high.
> And expecially during the evening commute, you are not likely to find
> stations with open restrooms.
Since when is it the responsibility fo transit systems to babysit and
wet-nurse their passengers? Go before you leave.
John Kolassa
>
>John Kolassa (kol...@genesee.bst.rochester.edu) writes:
>> In article <4faa7r$m...@panix2.panix.com> ma...@panix.com (your pal Marc) writes:
>>>On a transit system, you might be able to get get off at a stop, use the
>>>toilet, and get on the next train or bus. With commuter rail, the
>>>headways are too long for this approach to be practical, and unless you
>>>have a commuter ticket, the fares are too high.
>>>--
>> And expecially during the evening commute, you are not likely to find
>> stations with open restrooms.
>
>Since when is it the responsibility fo transit systems to babysit and
>wet-nurse their passengers? Go before you leave.
>
flu or uninary tract infections, however, could make for some unexpectedly
and pretty much unavoidably unpleasant rides on some of Metra's longer
trips, especially for those boarding at stations without toilet
fascilities, if there wasn't at least one restroom on board. Lack of
restrooms on the ex-IC electric trains is a very common topic of complaint.
If you want to get people out of their cars and into trains these concerns
should be taken seriously.
Exile on Market Street
(Daniel Casey) wrote:
[What's this "Schuylkill Valley Metro"?]
>
> SEPTA has a harebrained idea (nothing new there) to convert the R6 into
> some sort of light rail line a la Norristown. In Center City, it would
> run as a street trolley.
> The proposal hopes to extend it as far as Reading so you can spend as
> much time as possible in a small, uncomfortable light rail car, only to
> get downtown and spend another fifteen minutes chugging around on the
> street.
Yes, that'd be a helluvan interurban.
And no, I wouldn't want to spend an hour-plus on any of SEPTA's present
LRV fleet unless they epuipped the vehicles with some public conveniences.
But if I were them, I'd also try to figure out some way to route it over
the Manayunk viaduct, down through Cynwyd, onto Lancaster Ave and into the
Subway-Surface tunnel.
Or I'd tie it into another idea I've heard bandied about: a passenger
rail service in the now almost-completely-unused railroad tunnel under
Pennsylvania Avenue (north of the Art Museum) and open cut line just north
of Callowhill Street. Only one problem with this: no convenient
connection to the rapid-transit system (the tracks run midway between two
Broad Street Line stations, and the RR ROW's east end is at the old
Reading viaduct, well to the west of the Market-Frankford line). I guess
they could dig out a tunnel just below Broad from the point where the
tracks cross it to Spring Garden station. They couldn't do it to
Race-Vine, as the Vine Expressway separates the two.
__________________________________________________________________________
Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
Univ of Pennsylvania, News & Public Affairs 215.898.1423/fax 215.898.1203
I speak for myself here, not for Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
------------------------Happy 50th Birthday, ENIAC!-----------------------
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Daniel Casey
: But if I were them, I'd also try to figure out some way to route it over
: the Manayunk viaduct, down through Cynwyd, onto Lancaster Ave and into the
: Subway-Surface tunnel.
They beat you to it. The plan is (was, hopefully- it's an impractical and
capital-intensive project that probably wouldn't get far) to have the
Metro switch over to the viaduct-bound tracks at Ivy Ridge or
thereabouts, and continue down that opposite leg of the R6. At some
point- I forget how- it goes back across the river and ends up in near
North Philadelphia. I think that possibly, it was planned to run along
the route of the 15, down Parkside. Since SEPTA bought the City Industrial
Track on the Schuylkill's east bank, there was some sort of an idea to run
it down there, I think.
With either plan, I'm a little mystified about where and how it will get
off of the R6 tracks and onto the street. The Subway-Surface tunnel
should be used more, you're right, but I don't think it's a good way to
get to Reading from Center City.
: Or I'd tie it into another idea I've heard bandied about: a passenger
: rail service in the now almost-completely-unused railroad tunnel under
: Pennsylvania Avenue (north of the Art Museum) and open cut line just north
: of Callowhill Street.
I think that tunnel might be part of that Industrial Track route, which I
may be fantasizing. I don't think that SEPTA should be thinking of
various things to do with r-o-w just because it's there; we already have
a whole lot of tunnels going into Center City that we can utilize more
effectively.
greytek is the one
: Since when is it the responsibility fo transit systems to babysit and
: wet-nurse their passengers? Go before you leave.
Well..when your one train is leaving in 7 minutes..and you are in your
office...it is not always possible...
Also, if you are on the vehicle for an hour..it would be nice. Airplanes
that have schedules much shorter than that (one hour) have facilities,
why?..customer service.
--
Brian Bukowski "Gays haven't been selected by the government for
Toronto ON special treatment. Gays have been selected by
hoodlums and thugs for special treatment"
-- Federal Justice Minister Allan Rock
Now Fax the Hill: http://www.io.org/~greytek/faxhill.htm
Jason R. Decesare
In a previous article, dca...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Daniel Casey) says:
>Anthony Smith (ans...@sas.upenn.edu) wrote:
>: M Greene <mgr...@voicenet.com> wrote:
>: > Of course, if SEPTA's proposed Schuylkill Valley Metro should
>: >become a reality, there could be a need for restrooms on LRV's...
>
>: Please explain this plan?
>
>SEPTA has a harebrained idea (nothing new there) to convert the R6 into
>some sort of light rail line a la Norristown. In Center City, it would
>run as a street trolley.
>The proposal hopes to extend it as far as Reading so you can spend as
>much time as possible in a small, uncomfortable light rail car, only to
>get downtown and spend another fifteen minutes chugging around on the
>street.
It sounds like this is yet another plan by the light rail as a panecea
folks. To all of those people I have to say:
A trolley isn't the best solution in every case.
It may be quaint, nice, clean and quiet, but it needs a lot of infrastructure
to be put in place and maintained. And do you know what that means boys and
girls? Come on eveybody say it together- MONEY!
-Jason
Who would only support a light rail line if it was actually quicker and
more cost effective than the M42 bus.
Jason R. Decesare
In a previous article, ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) says:
>
>John Kolassa (kol...@genesee.bst.rochester.edu) writes:
>> In article <4faa7r$m...@panix2.panix.com> ma...@panix.com (your pal Marc)
writ
es:
>>>Colin R. Leech (ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
>>>
>>>: I disagree. Washrooms are a significant maintenance expense, and not
>>>: primary to the task of running a transit system, unless passengers have a
>>>: long (say, 1 hour) commute on the same vehicle. There are much better
>>>: things to spend your money on, such as increased service frequency.
>>>
>>>On a transit system, you might be able to get get off at a stop, use the
>>>toilet, and get on the next train or bus. With commuter rail, the
>>>headways are too long for this approach to be practical, and unless you
>>>have a commuter ticket, the fares are too high.
>>>--
>> And expecially during the evening commute, you are not likely to find
>> stations with open restrooms.
>
>Since when is it the responsibility fo transit systems to babysit and
>wet-nurse their passengers? Go before you leave.
Colin, Colin, Colin.
We have to put you on a Trenton local out of NY Penn after you have downed a
20 oz. bottle of Coca-Cola. You then may be singing a different song about
washrooms on a train.
Now I wonder what he would think of the bar cars on the New Haven Line. . .
-Jason
your pal Marc
: Since when is it the responsibility fo transit systems to babysit and
: wet-nurse their passengers? Go before you leave.
This is part of the attitude that discourages people from using transit;
failing to understand that even with a relatively captive market, people
will use alternatives if they feel forced into it.
The folks running The Home Depot, Wal-Mart, etc. sure as hell
don't sit there and whine about how it's not their "responsibility"
to provide toilets. That's because they have to keep their customers
happy -- unsatisfied customers *will* go elsewhere otherwise. And
that's also why large retailers have better reputations than typical transit
systems (and other government agencies) -- they can't afford to have an
arrogant "our subjects will do as we say" attitude.
Kevin M. Greenberg
possible (and COlin and I would argue that it is exceedingly likely) that
there would be a significantly greater decrease in ridership than there
is because there are no restrooms today.
Remember, the poor greatly outnumber the incontinent.
-- Kevin
--
Kevin Greenberg
University of Pennsylvania School of Law
Kgre...@dolphin.upenn.edu
John Kolassa
Metra's predecessors (at lest the C&NW) kept toilets on trains open even
when they were operating in the red with no reimbursement. If toilets added
as much as you claim to operating expenses they would have been eliminated
early on.
These fascilities don't get particularly heavy use. I, and most people,
I would guess, use chemical toilets only in an emergency, since they
smell bad even when kept clean.
Colin R. Leech
your pal Marc (ma...@panix.com) writes:
> Colin R. Leech (ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
>
> : Since when is it the responsibility fo transit systems to babysit and
> : wet-nurse their passengers? Go before you leave.
>
> This is part of the attitude that discourages people from using transit;
> failing to understand that even with a relatively captive market, people
> will use alternatives if they feel forced into it.
There are lots of McDonald's and other alternatives around.
Given a choice between reducing service frequency and eliminating
washrooms, the loss of service will drive away many times more passengers
than will the lack of washrooms.
Ron Mansolino
Leech) wrote:
>> : Since when is it the responsibility fo transit systems to babysit and
>> : wet-nurse their passengers? Go before you leave.
Thank God (whichever one you prefer) that your bowels work as intended.
Some of us aren't so lucky.
>There are lots of McDonald's and other alternatives around.
Even though it's a health dep't regulation (here in phila, I believe)
that restaurants have to have facilities available for the public, many
don't (to discourage the homeless, perhaps?) and if they do, ewww!
I am very grateful that SEPTA has well maintained facilities at Market
East. Right next to the Police station. Now, if they could only do
something about Suburban Station...
John Kolassa
>
>your pal Marc (ma...@panix.com) writes:
>>
>> : Since when is it the responsibility fo transit systems to babysit and
>> : wet-nurse their passengers? Go before you leave.
>>
>> failing to understand that even with a relatively captive market, people
>> will use alternatives if they feel forced into it.
>
>
>washrooms, the loss of service will drive away many times more passengers
>than will the lack of washrooms.
>
>
>--
>##### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag...@freenet.carleton.ca
>##### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
>##### > < Opinions are my own. Consider them shareware if you want.
>##### >_./|\._< "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown
Remember that we were discussing washrooms on trains, not on busses.
On a bus, if you've got a transfer, you can watch for a fast food place,
signal the driver to stop, and get dropped off right in front of the
restaurant. Once business is taken care of, you can wait for the next
bus, which with luck will be around soon. The alternative is a toilet on
the city bus, which I'll agree is impractical. On a train, however,
1. Providing toilets in small but non-zero numbers per passenger
is easier, since the number of passengers per train is much higher,
2. Hopping out at McDonald's is harder, since the train makes fewer stops,
3. Getting back on is more difficult, since service frequencies are usually
less for trains.
If providing washrooms was such a hassle for commuter operators it probably
would have been abandoned while commuter operations were still in private
hands, but this was not done.
Lisa
not reboard your own bus.
Raymond F. Greenberg
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) wrote:
>
>There are lots of McDonald's and other alternatives around.
>
>Given a choice between reducing service frequency and eliminating
>washrooms, the loss of service will drive away many times more passengers
>than will the lack of washrooms.
Well, obviously YOU don't mind using the restrooms at MCDONALDS!!
-------------------------------------
Raymond F. Greenberg
Colin R. Leech
> : washrooms, the loss of service will drive away many times more passengers
> : than will the lack of washrooms.
>
> one of these will drive more passengers away. That's hardly a
> justification for eliminating X or Y.
Those are some of the hard choices that are being made in today's budget
climate. Our Commission recently decided to drop air conditioning from the
spec for new buses. Clearly YMMV.
Colin R. Leech
Ron Mansolino (rmso...@netaxs.com) writes:
> Even though it's a health dep't regulation (here in phila, I believe)
> that restaurants have to have facilities available for the public, many
> don't (to discourage the homeless, perhaps?) and if they do, ewww!
Which are exactly two of the problems and costs faced by transit agencies
as well.
Herbert P Chan
Herbert Chan
http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~chanherb/
Exile on Market Street
(Herbert P Chan) wrote:
> Don't Commuter rail stations have facilites anyway?
No -- most SEPTA Regional Rail stations do not have public toilets. That
includes those stations with actual station houses (as opposed to ticket
trailers or bus-stop-type shelters).
__________________________________________________________________________
Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
Univ of Pennsylvania, News & Public Affairs 215.898.1423/fax 215.898.1203
I speak for myself here, not for Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
------------------------Happy 50th Birthday, ENIAC!-----------------------
Complete ENIAC 50th Celebration information: http://www.upenn.edu/eniac/
BBReynolds
construction...believe it won ASCE and AIA awards when built..can't check
easily as I'm in Dallas on a consulting contract at the moment
Bob Scheurle
>Don't Commuter rail stations have facilites anyway?
No. Some of NJ Transit's stations have only a bus shelter. Most of
the stations that actually have a building don't have restrooms.
My favorite is Summit. The restroom door has a sign reading:
"For emergency use only".
--
Bob Scheurle
sche...@eclipse.net
sche...@itt.com
NJ Assoc of RR Passengers at http://www.eclipse.net/~scheurle/njarp
Jason R. Decesare
In a previous article, chan...@blue.seas.upenn.edu (Herbert P Chan) says:
>Don't Commuter rail stations have facilites anyway?
Yes and no.
Some stations do, some stations do not.
However you are forgetting that the stations close at times when the trains
run.
-Jason
--
"We didn't offer what we promised, and you shouldn't have to pay for what
you got." -Donald Nelson, Metro-North's president on refunds to monthly
and weekly ticket refunds, quoted in the Gannett Suburban Newspapers 1/18/96
Wayne Toy
: Henry Avenue bridge much earlier than the 1940's: a classic of concrete
: construction...believe it won ASCE and AIA awards when built..can't check
: easily as I'm in Dallas on a consulting contract at the moment
The Henry Avenue Bridge over the Wissahickon Valley was built in 1931.
--
Wayne Toy Clarknet: wt...@clark.net
Pasadena, MD Milnet: t...@dockmaster.ncsc.mil
Herc Wad
> Remember, the poor greatly outnumber the incontinent.
What about the poor incontinent people? :>
What a Canadian said after playing Champions of the Galaxy:
"It kicked serious arse!"
M Greene
> Henry Avenue bridge much earlier than the 1940's: a classic of
> concrete construction...believe it won ASCE and AIA awards when
> built..
It was built in 1932. As I've noted in other past posts, it
has a provision for rapid transit under the bridge deck.
Marc Dufour
==============================================================
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech)
écrivit le - wrote on Thu, 15 Feb 1996 06:45:38 GMT:
--------------------------------------------------------------
>your pal Marc (ma...@panix.com) writes:
>> Given the choice between reducing ANY item "X", and ANY other item "Y",
>> one of these will drive more passengers away. That's hardly a
>> justification for eliminating X or Y.
>Those are some of the hard choices that are being made in today's budget
>climate. Our Commission recently decided to drop air conditioning from the
>spec for new buses. Clearly YMMV.
Clearly an indispensable item for the capital of Canada!!! Watch the
ridership plummet!!!
----------------- Pour la République Française du Québec -----------------
What's this? It seems now that even right-wingers are backpedaling and are
starting to sooth those who lost/will lose their jobs because of corporate
sharks. Could this mean that the free-entreprise dogma is wrong ????
Marc Dufour - [\] ACUC6 31874 - TDI CD-0197 - http://www.accent.net/emdx
Marc Dufour
==============================================================
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech)
--------------------------------------------------------------
>your pal Marc (ma...@panix.com) writes:
>> Colin R. Leech (ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
>>
>> : Since when is it the responsibility fo transit systems to babysit and
>> : wet-nurse their passengers? Go before you leave.
>>
>> This is part of the attitude that discourages people from using transit;
>> failing to understand that even with a relatively captive market, people
>> will use alternatives if they feel forced into it.
>There are lots of McDonald's and other alternatives around.
Mac Donald's has been known of having security guards who would handcuff
people who walk straight from the street into the cans. Never mind that
they indended to bite into a Big Thing aftwerwards...
jsd...@gmail.com
kiwiwr...@gmail.com
>
> : Since when is it the responsibility fo transit systems to babysit and
> : wet-nurse their passengers? Go before you leave.
>
> This is part of the attitude that discourages people from using transit;
> failing to understand that even with a relatively captive market, people
> will use alternatives if they feel forced into it.
>
> don't sit there and whine about how it's not their "responsibility"
> to provide toilets. That's because they have to keep their customers
> happy -- unsatisfied customers *will* go elsewhere otherwise. And
> that's also why large retailers have better reputations than typical transit
> systems (and other government agencies) -- they can't afford to have an
> arrogant "our subjects will do as we say" attitude.
>
> ypM is Marc Mednick
> --
Yeah...you care about other people. That's why you run the New York Subway system. That's an organization that defines not giving a damn about its customers. Your motto is "This train is going out of service."
John Levine
>On Sunday, February 11, 1996 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, your pal Marc wrote:
>
>You have some nerve saying that, Marc. ...
Since he said it over 22 years ago, perhaps his opinions have changed
in the meantime.
--
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
kiwiwr...@gmail.com
3:44 PM (1 minute ago)
to misc.transport.urban-transit
People just become parodies of themselves over time...like leopards, they don't change their spots.
The other thing people do when they get confronted with their misdeeds is take refuge in poor memory and politeness. Schoolteachers are good at that when you go to the reunion. "I don't remember calling you stupid in class...I would never do something like that. I remember you as one of my finest students." And I remember you telling me I was the stupidest person in class when I gave the right answer to a question.
He happily wrecked my Navy career to defend his career as an Internet troll and nearly wrecked my marriage as well. He was even going to make a web page about it, that's how proud he was. I warned him not to do it, and he said he wouldn't, but he might have, anyway...my daughter tells me you can make web pages and slap a code in place that makes them impossible to find on search engines.
And while the internet is written in stone, it's more anonymous than ever. Look at all the internet "pundits" on Twitter who bend opinions but can't be found. Like that neo-Nazi, Andrew Anglin. He's avoiding a major lawsuit for orchestrating a "trollstorm" to harm a woman in North Dakota, by claiming he's in Nigeria. Or the Philippines. Or Brazil. But he's probably hiding from the lawsuit in his mommy's basement in Columbus, Ohio.
No, Shakespeare was right... "The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones." -- Julius Caesar, Act 3, Scene 2.
Or as they say have been saying in the New York Subway since unification in 1940: "Cutting service and raising the fare will be good for the system in the long run...we ask that our passengers bear with us during this temporary period."
How long again did it take them to build the Second Avenue Subway? 110 years? Yeah, that's "temporary," I guess...
No, I'm sure he hasn't changed. I'm just a little black stick figure on his wall at the NYCTA building in Brooklyn -- the symbol for a "confirmed kill."
VR/Kiwiwriter