Secret Bus Routes prevent Transit-borne Crime?
Lee Baylor
In the ongoing debate in this newsgroup about the relationship
between transit and crime, I'm surprised to see no discussion
of the value, if any, of covert transit operations.
In Atlanta, MARTA operates 22 secret bus routes that I know of.
(There may be more.) Anyone can ride these buses, but
information about them is restricted. These routes operate in
the wealthiest neighborhoods on Atlanta's north side. The
people who actually live in these neighborhoods don't ride
the bus; the routes are intended to bring maids, butlers, etc.
to work in these neighborhoods.
These routes do not appear on system maps distributed or
displayed to the public. No timetables for these routes are
distributed to the public. Bus stops are not marked along
these routes. Whereas MARTA must publish legal notices and
hold public hearings on most bus route changes, secret bus
route changes can be handled behind closed doors.
These routes were operated openly until 1979-1980. They
were converted to covert operation concurrent with the
opening of the first segments of MARTA's rail system.
Although I generally believe information about transit services
should be freely distributed to everybody, I can understand
those who argue information about bus service operating strictly
in residential areas should be limited to residents and their
employees. I'm not convinced this prevents crime, though.
Listed below are the secret MARTA bus routes that I know of:
701 Ridgemore
702 Arden/Northside
703 Tuxedo
704 Paces Ferry
705 Randall Mill Rd.
706 Garmon-Davis
707 Whitewater-Jett
708 Jett-Rebel Trail
709 Lake Forrest
710A Riverchase
710B Powers Ferry
711A Riverside
711B Brandon Mill
712 Vernon Woods/Dalrymple
713 Glenridge Forest
714 Happy Hollow/Meadowlake
715 Peachtree-Dunwoody
716 Beacon Hill
717 Sagamore Hills
719 Northwest
720A Argonne
720B Howell Mill
If anyone knows of others in Atlanta, please let me know.
If your city has covert/secret transit operations, how well
do they work there?
--
Lee Baylor
lee.b...@net-link.com
Ray Mullins
They're not as secret as you think.
I have a MARTA System Map for 1990. In the residential northwestern
section where there is an obvious dearth of routes, there is an
italicized note over the area that states MARTA operates routes for
use by domestic workers or words to that effect and for more info
call 848-4711, the MARTA information number.
Also, at Lenox Square station, there were bus pads marked with several
of these routes.
But I've always found this lack of service in the area and the
"mystery" routes interesting. Sounds like a case of BigDon/Arlington TX
syndrome resounds through the area.
Years ago, SCRTD used to operate "subscription service", numbered in
the 500 series, that were meant for employees of (and funded by) ARCO,
Prudential Insurance, and others. There were no timetables, you
could not get information about them from the regular information
operators (gee, kind of like now :) ), and the only route map and schedule
printed were on the paddles used by the drivers.
Speaking of Lenox Square, does CCT still operate a route from Cobb County
to Lenox Square? It's not mentioned in the MARTA web page.
Later,
Ray
(Atlanta resident in 1991-rode 132 Tilly Mill/rail/72 Virginia Ave.)
--
M. Ray Mullins, Arlington TX (the largest city without a transit system,
and site of the regional headquarters of the FTA)
m...@lerami.lerctr.org
http://www.lerctr.org/~mrm
Exile on Market Street
In article <4pl7or$r...@lester.appstate.edu>, lee.b...@net-link.com (Lee
Baylor) wrote:
> In the ongoing debate in this newsgroup about the relationship
> between transit and crime, I'm surprised to see no discussion
> of the value, if any, of covert transit operations.
[At first I thought this was referring to CIA attempts to destabilize
unfriendly regimes by running subways into military bases and government
buildings, but I see the poster was referring to something else. ;-)]
How does MARTA manage to get the information about these routes into the
hands of the people who *do* need to know about them? Does a Dunwoody
resident who's just hired a new maid dial MARTA and ask for a system
tariff, or what?
In any event, special routes or route diversions to carry domestic staff
into affluent neighborhoods are not unheard of elsewhere. The Kansas City
bus system had a diversion service on the main route through the city's
wealthiest neighborhood that served Mission Hills, over the line in
Kansas, but I think that service was noted on timetables for the route.
About the closest thing to what you describe that I know of are the school
bus routes SEPTA operates within the City of Philadelphia. These bear
route numbers in the 400's. Bus stops along these routes are marked with
the route number and a note that the route operates limited hours,
weekdays only, but no timetables are published for them.
I think the reason these routes are publicly identified at all has to do
with the mechanism used to help pay for them. I believe these routes are
paid for partially out of funds from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania (I
don't think it's from the lottery proceeds that go to subsidize off-peak
travel for seniors, but it may be), and one stipulation that attaches to
the state funding is that the routes must be usable by the general
public. (Prior to the state funding, SEPTA had operated these routes
strictly to carry school children, and no other passengers were carried.)
Given when and where these routes operate, I suspect their effect on crime
is negligible.
__________________________________________________________________________
Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
Univ of Pennsylvania, News & Public Affairs 215.898.1423/fax 215.898.1203
I speak for myself here, not for Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
"God is in the details."
------------------------------------------------Ludwig Mies van der Rohe--
Big Don
Hah-hah-hah-hah....[ ROFLMFAO ]
Nice try Lee....
You thought you could sucker in Big Don with this obvious troll?
How long did it take you to dream this up?
Was Colin in on it? An obvious sleazy trick that failed....
Better luck next time.
Hah-hah-hah-hah....
Hey, it was very clever - Big Don will give you credit for that.
I'll bet you figured Big Don would spam this sneaky missive to a
few dozen newsgroups and fall flat on his face when the truth came out?
No way.
Hah-hah-hah-hah....
Big Don
No LOOT Gullibility !!
On 12 Jun 1996, Lee Baylor wrote:
> In the ongoing debate in this newsgroup about the relationship
> between transit and crime, I'm surprised to see no discussion
> of the value, if any, of covert transit operations.
>
> --
>
> Lee Baylor
> lee.b...@net-link.com
Just kidding, Big Don is gonna run with it...stay tuned!
Charles P. Hobbs
m...@lerami.lerctr.org (Ray Mullins) wrote:
>Years ago, SCRTD used to operate "subscription service", numbered in
>the 500 series, that were meant for employees of (and funded by) ARCO,
>Prudential Insurance, and others. There were no timetables, you
>could not get information about them from the regular information
>operators (gee, kind of like now :) ), and the only route map and schedule
>printed were on the paddles used by the drivers.
>
These services were essentially buspools (requiring monthly fares)
partially subsidized by the involved employers (I think).
Eventually, many of these routes were absorbed into the regular
route network as express and/or park/ride services. For example: the
route between Westlake Village and Downtown became the #123 (which
was later renumbered into #423)
I remember reading an old NTIS report about these "subscription" lines,
as well as several private bus companies offering similar services.
David Grant
smi...@pobox.upenn.edu (Exile on Market Street) writes:
(snip)
> About the closest thing to what you describe that I know of
> are the school bus routes SEPTA operates within the City of
> Philadelphia. These bear route numbers in the 400's. Bus
> stops along these routes are marked with the route number
> and a note that the route operates limited hours,
> weekdays only, but no timetables are published for them.
>
> I think the reason these routes are publicly identified at
> all has to do with the mechanism used to help pay for them.
> I believe these routes are paid for partially out of funds
> from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania (I don't think it's
> from the lottery proceeds that go to subsidize off-peak
> travel for seniors, but it may be), and one stipulation that
> attaches to the state funding is that the routes must be
> usable by the general public. (Prior to the state funding,
> SEPTA had operated these routes strictly to carry school
> children, and no other passengers were carried.)
I can't speak to the restrictions of PA state funding, but I
can tell you that when then-UMTA tightened the charter rules
in 1987 to disallow (under most circumstances) public transit
operators from competing with private carriers, a number of
cities had to discontinue school-only service of this sort
(making it available to non-students). The reasoning, which
if memory serves was specifically included in the regulations
as it related to school-only routes/trips, was that any time
you restricted who could ride a bus, it became a charter.
I have a very clear memory of a public hearing I conducted in
1988 when I was scheduling director in New Orleans. I had an
exchange with a speaker that went something like this:
Speaker: There are too many students on our route. Can't
you set up some buses just for students and other buses that
the students can't ride on?
Me: Sorry, federal regulations say we can't have
restrictions of that sort. That would make it a charter and
we can't compete with private charter operators.
Speaker: I used to live in Albany [I think that was the city
he mentioned] and they did it. Couldn't you check with them
to see how they got around the regulations?
Me: How long ago was this?
Speaker: About 6 years ago [would've been 1982].
Me: The federal regulations I'm speaking of are only a year
old.
Speaker: Oh.
..and another memory of a school principal who wanted
student-only buses because he said other neighborhood
residents were getting on and intimidating his students.
Whether large numbers of students should be carried on public
transit rather than school buses at all is I think a very
relevant question...but I won't address it...at least not
right now.
Access Systems
Lee Baylor (lee.b...@net-link.com) wrote:
: In the ongoing debate in this newsgroup about the relationship
: between transit and crime, I'm surprised to see no discussion
: of the value, if any, of covert transit operations.
: In Atlanta, MARTA operates 22 secret bus routes that I know of.
: (There may be more.) Anyone can ride these buses, but
: information about them is restricted. These routes operate in
: the wealthiest neighborhoods on Atlanta's north side. The
: people who actually live in these neighborhoods don't ride
: the bus; the routes are intended to bring maids, butlers, etc.
: to work in these neighborhoods.
: These routes do not appear on system maps distributed or
: displayed to the public. No timetables for these routes are
: distributed to the public. Bus stops are not marked along
: these routes. Whereas MARTA must publish legal notices and
: hold public hearings on most bus route changes, secret bus
: route changes can be handled behind closed doors.
For many years Baltimore operated many routes, mostly to schools for
students, but someone filed a complaint when they were not allowed to
ride one of these routes because they were not part of the group. (rumor
has it that it was a teacher who was not allowed to pay a regulaar fare
to ride a city bus going to thier school and they were required to ride 2
or 3 buses to go the same place, so they filed a complaint as this was a
public bus route.) now all of these buses are listed in the timetable
with an "*" and a note on the back explaining that this bus goes a
different way to a different destination, but it carries a route number
of the route clasest to the route it takes.
We do have rather interesting stiuation that between 1 and 5 am
the all night bus routes revert to thier 1934 routing...
Bob
: These routes were operated openly until 1979-1980. They
Make MyDay
acce...@smarty.smart.net (Access Systems) wrote:
>Lee Baylor (lee.b...@net-link.com) wrote:
>: In the ongoing debate in this newsgroup about the relationship
>: between transit and crime, I'm surprised to see no discussion
>
>(rumor
>has it that it was a teacher who was not allowed to pay a regular fare
>or 3 buses to go the same place, so they filed a complaint as this was a
>public bus route.) now all of these buses are listed in the timetable
>with an "*" and a note on the back explaining that this bus goes a
>different way to a different destination, but it carries a route number
>of the route clasest to the route it takes.
>
> We do have rather interesting stiuation that between 1 and 5 am
>
>Bob
In what respects do the 1-5am (1934) routings differ from routings during
the rest of the day?
<MakeMyDay>
Lee Baylor
Anyone, including Big Don, that suspects my post is a troll, would do
well to telnet to the Atlanta-Fulton Public Library (199.78.120.3),
select the Atlanta Journal-Constitution search engine (option 16),
do a WORD search on say, marta + unmarked, and pull up David Beasly's
April 29, 1990 article confirming the basic underlying facts in my post.
--
Lee Baylor
lee.b...@net-link.com
Lee Baylor
I said secret, not TOP SECRET. ;-)
>I have a MARTA System Map for 1990. In the residential northwestern
>section where there is an obvious dearth of routes, there is an
>italicized note over the area that states MARTA operates routes for
>use by domestic workers or words to that effect and for more info
>call 848-4711, the MARTA information number.
The italicized note doesn't appear in the 1993 System Map. More
to the point, I have (or have seen) system maps from the 1980s
back to the 1940s that explicitly show those so-called "domestic
employment" routes (PC for "maid buses). Instead of "an obvious
dearth of routes," one sees a comprehensive network of routes
blanketing the area, just as one would if one took a current MARTA
System Map and manually drew in the current "domestic" routes.
My question is, why the present-day shrouding of details about
these routes?
>Also, at Lenox Square station, there were bus pads marked with several
>of these routes.
The bus stops at rail stations are marked, but not in the
neighborhoods. Did you notice that schedules & route maps for
all the bus routes serving Lenox station are posted in the station,
EXCEPT for those "secret" routes?
>But I've always found this lack of service in the area and the
>"mystery" routes interesting. Sounds like a case of BigDon/Arlington TX
>syndrome resounds through the area.
Not quite, I think. True, there are plenty of built-up suburban areas
in metro Atlanta that lack transit service due to what might be
called Big Don thinking. But this particular area of Atlanta is
populated by very wealthy white people who _want_ a MARTA bus to
drop off their black maid and/or gardener at the end of their
driveway five days a week. That's a far cry from suburbanites who
don't want MARTA anywhere in the same county they live in.
BTW, these bus routes are a wonder, sometimes turning down a dead end
street to serve a few houses (well, mansions). The old 64 Sagamore
Hills route required the driver to make 71 turns on each one-way trip.
FWIW, Big Don mentality may have its greatest metro Atlanta stronghold
in the _black_ neighborhoods of southern DeKalb County. I've
attended MARTA public hearings where one black resident after another
objected to MARTA's plans to add new bus routes on the grounds that
MARTA would bring the "wrong" kind of people into their neighborhoods.
>Speaking of Lenox Square, does CCT still operate a route from Cobb County
>to Lenox Square? It's not mentioned in the MARTA web page.
CCT route 60 Johnson Ferry still operates. (It was considered for
discontinuance earlier this year.) I don't know if it still
goes to the Lenox MARTA station. Logically, it should now go to
the brand new Medical Center station, which opened last Saturday
(June 8th).
--
Lee Baylor
lee.b...@net-link.com
Ron Newman
In article <4pl7or$r...@lester.appstate.edu>,
Lee Baylor <lee.b...@net-link.com> wrote:
>In the ongoing debate in this newsgroup about the relationship
>between transit and crime, I'm surprised to see no discussion
>of the value, if any, of covert transit operations.
>
>(There may be more.) Anyone can ride these buses, but
>information about them is restricted.
What a bizarre way to do things.. If the routes are
secret (no schedules, not on maps), how on earth does
anyone know enough about them to ride them?
--
Ron Newman rne...@cybercom.net
Web: http://www.cybercom.net/~rnewman/home.html
Ron Newman
In article <smiths-1206...@smiths.admin.upenn.edu>,
Exile on Market Street <smi...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote:
>About the closest thing to what you describe that I know of are the school
>bus routes SEPTA operates within the City of Philadelphia. These bear
>route numbers in the 400's. Bus stops along these routes are marked with
>the route number and a note that the route operates limited hours,
>weekdays only, but no timetables are published for them.
The MBTA runs a number of special "school-bus" routes as well.
They actually do publish a schedule card listing these so-called
"Supplemental" runs, which are officially just extra service
combining several established bus routes. Technically, anyone
can ride on these services.
Jon Bell
Lee Baylor <lee.b...@net-link.com> wrote:
[about the "secret" 700-series bus routes in the posh north Atlanta
residential area]
>My question is, why the present-day shrouding of details about
>these routes?
If these routes are effectively "van pools" which provide service to the
employers' doorsteps (OK, driveways :-)), operate few trips (maybe
even just one trip outbound in the AM and one inbound in the PM), and
have routes which change frequently according to demand, there would be
little point in "advertising" them publicly because they would be of no
use to anybody except the specific people (i.e. the maids) for whom they
are intended; and they can be given the information directly.
I'm just speculating here, since I'm not privy to the actual details of
operation of these routes. I do remember seeing the bays marked for them
at Lenox Square station and wondering about them.
--
Jon Bell <jtb...@presby.edu> Presbyterian College
Dept. of Physics and Computer Science Clinton, South Carolina USA
[ http://cs1.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/ ]
Martin Bienwald
Lee Baylor (lee.b...@net-link.com) wrote:
: In the ongoing debate in this newsgroup about the relationship
: between transit and crime, I'm surprised to see no discussion
: of the value, if any, of covert transit operations.
: In Atlanta, MARTA operates 22 secret bus routes that I know of.
(...)
Hmph, and how do you disguise a standard size bus as a Daimler-Benz car?
(SCNR ...)
IMHO, transit routes which are open to the public should also be announced
to the public.
The only 'covert' transit routes in German cities I know of are
-- school bus routes (even their timetables are sometimes published)
-- special routes for employees of a certain factory (including some
rail services going directly onto the factory grounds).
-- special bus routes for foreign armed forces.
By the way: _NO_ one here seems to have the opinion that transit produces
crime. Some people even say that frequently running transit vehicles are
a way to _counter_ some forms of crime.
-- Martin --
Matthew Mitchell
Sorry, those 'secret' bus routes in Philadelphia have a _concentration_ of
transit-borne crime (at least moving some of it away from the grown-up
customers)
In article <smiths-1206...@smiths.admin.upenn.edu>,
smi...@pobox.upenn.edu (Exile on Market Street) wrote:
>About the closest thing to what you describe that I know of are the school
>bus routes SEPTA operates within the City of Philadelphia. These bear
>route numbers in the 400's. Bus stops along these routes are marked with
>the route number and a note that the route operates limited hours,
>weekdays only, but no timetables are published for them.
>
>I think the reason these routes are publicly identified at all has to do
>with the mechanism used to help pay for them. I believe these routes are
>paid for partially out of funds from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania (I
>don't think it's from the lottery proceeds that go to subsidize off-peak
>travel for seniors, but it may be), and one stipulation that attaches to
>the state funding is that the routes must be usable by the general
>public. (Prior to the state funding, SEPTA had operated these routes
>strictly to carry school children, and no other passengers were carried.)
Wrong. The reason the 'school trippers' had to be converted to fixed-route
service on public schedules was a Federal law intended to prevent publicly-
subsidized mass transit operators from competing for charter business with
private bus companies. It also killed the SEPTA rambles.
>Given when and where these routes operate, I suspect their effect on crime
>is negligible.
See above. The bulk of crimes committed on the SEPTA system are by high
school-age kids, usually on the way home from school.
Dr. Matt, who rode to/from Haverford College lacrosse games on chartered
SEPTA Red Arrow buses in 1980
/_\ Matthew Mitchell, Newsletter Editor
/[ ]\ Delaware Valley Association of Railroad Passengers
/ | \ PO Box 7505, Philadelphia PA 19101-7505
/ _|_ \ voice: 215-673-6445-message box 3, fax 215-885-7448
--------- http://www.libertynet.org/~dvarp
BobFarns
Lee Baylor wrote: lee.b...@net-link.com (Lee Baylor)
Date: 12 Jun 1996 01:50:19 GMT
>These routes do not appear on system maps distributed or
>displayed to the public. No timetables for these routes are
>distributed to the public. Bus stops are not marked along
>these routes. Whereas MARTA must publish legal notices and
>hold public hearings on most bus route changes, secret bus
>route changes can be handled behind closed doors.
Does this mean that stealth buses (developed at the Skunk Works) are used
on the route?
Bob Farnsworth BobF...@aol.com
Austin, TX
Lee Baylor
On 14 Jun 1996, Jon Bell <jtb...@presby.edu> wrote:
>If these routes are effectively "van pools" which provide service to the
>employers' doorsteps (OK, driveways :-)), operate few trips (maybe
>even just one trip outbound in the AM and one inbound in the PM), and
>have routes which change frequently according to demand, there would be
>little point in "advertising" them publicly because they would be of no
>use to anybody except the specific people (i.e. the maids) for whom they
>are intended; and they can be given the information directly.
Jon, I believe you've got it right, but backwards! :-)
I contend that MARTA ceased furnishing information about these routes
to the public, and started giving the information directly to
"the specific people (i.e. the maids)," _because_ they wanted to
ensure that these routes would never become of use to people other
than the "intended." Not printing timetables to save money I can
understand; deleting all mention of these routes from system maps
and not posting schedule information in the appropriate rail stations
is hard to rationalize.
I just want to know, _why_?
Some "maid" routes have "grown up" to become "regular" routes.
132 Tilly Mill and 148 Powers Ferry were carved out of old
"maid" routes. Maybe that scared some people.
And no, these "secret" routes hardly ever change their routings.
>I'm just speculating here, since I'm not privy to the actual details of
>operation of these routes. I do remember seeing the bays marked for them
>at Lenox Square station and wondering about them.
Maybe the next time you're there, you can talk the MARTA supervisor
sitting in the bus supervisor's booth into letting you read
the 700 Series Operations Manual. That's how I'm "privy to the actual
details." What's funny is, the supervisor (a friend of mine) denied
having a copy of the manual in the booth, but he allowed me to search
for it and I found it.
--
Lee Baylor
lee.b...@net-link.com
Daniel P Tasman
Exile on Market Street (smi...@pobox.upenn.edu) wrote:
> About the closest thing to what you describe that I know of are the school
> bus routes SEPTA operates within the City of Philadelphia. These bear
> route numbers in the 400's. Bus stops along these routes are marked with
> the route number and a note that the route operates limited hours,
> weekdays only, but no timetables are published for them.
Students attending a school more than a mile and a half from their
residence in the Buffalo Public School District are given bus passes,
which enable them to travel on any NFTA bus or rail route to and fron
school at no charge.
Special NFTA school routes, which are based on regular bus routes but
originate from the schools, are not listed on schedules.
A LOOT problem that is reality - in recent years, many students have
headed downtown after school instead of back home, using their bus passes.
Although the Buffalo Public School system is fairly integrated, Main Place
Mall in downtown has become a popular hangout for black students.
Merchants in the mall say that the students (not mentioning their race)
have scared off many of the shoppers (read - whites), and sales have
fallen dramatically. As a result, a branch police station opened in the
mall a year ago, and supposedly problems with fights, shoplifting and
loitering have been reduced.
Since Buffalo's richest neighborhoods (the Delaware District, Parkside,
Nye Park and Central Park areas) are right across Main Street from some of
the poorest, and there are no shortage of crosstown bus routes, there's no
special routes for domestic servants.
--
Dan Tasman tas...@acsu.buffalo.edu http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~tasman/
UB School of Architecture and Planning http://www.arch.buffalo.edu/
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "I think that I shall never see a billboard lovely as a tree. |
| indeed, unless the billboards fall, I'll never see a tree at all." |
| Odgen Nash, Song of the Open Road |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
David Bromage
If they have radar absorbing skins, does this mean you can drive them at
any speed you like? I suspect they have camera detectors of the type used
on Thunderbird 1. :-)
Actually, an early experimental Freightrail livery (NSW, Australia) was
nicknamed the stealth livery because it was so dark it was almost impossible
to photograph.
Cheers
David
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Bromage dbro...@metz.une.edu.au
Department of Chemistry http://metz.une.edu.au/~dbromage
University of New England "On the Internet people who are normally
Armidale, NSW 2351 under rocks are out there and in your
Australia face" - Douglas Adams
Ron Newman
In article <ADE82C109...@ts11-38.upenn.edu>,
Matthew Mitchell <mmit...@libertynet.org> wrote:
>Wrong. The reason the 'school trippers' had to be converted to fixed-route
>service on public schedules was a Federal law intended to prevent publicly-
>subsidized mass transit operators from competing for charter business with
>private bus companies.
Why did the Federal government want to prevent publicly-subsidized mass transit
operators from competing for charter business? Shouldn't transit
authorities be free to seek out additional sources of revenues wherever
they wish?
If a transit authority acquires a good reputation as a charter
operator, perhaps the charter customers will start to patronize
the transit authority's regular service as well. This can only
be a win for all concerned.
Henning Makholm
obe...@fim.informatik.uni-mannheim.de (Martin Bienwald) writes:
>By the way: _NO_ one here seems to have the opinion that transit produces
>crime.
Where have Big Don gone?? I didn't notice him leaving (since I
killfiled his ISP several months ago :)
--
Henning Makholm - math and CS student - University of Copenhagen
mak...@diku.dk - http://www.diku.dk/students/makholm - fido 2:235/224.92
Exile on Market Street
> Where have Big Don gone?? I didn't notice him leaving (since I
> killfiled his ISP several months ago :)
You should revise your killfile. I've seen other users of eskimo.com have
at Big Don in this very newsgroup (although usually in threads crossposted
to one of the seattle.* newsgroups).
__________________________________________________________________________
Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
Univ of Pennsylvania, News & Public Affairs 215.898.1423/fax 215.898.1203
I speak for myself here, not for Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
---------------------------------------------Ella Fitzgerald (1918-1996)--
Exile on Market Street
In article <ADE82C109...@ts11-38.upenn.edu>, mmit...@libertynet.org
(Matthew Mitchell) wrote:
> Sorry, those 'secret' bus routes in Philadelphia have a _concentration_ of
> transit-borne crime (at least moving some of it away from the grown-up
> customers)
Well, then, I guess they are A Good Thing in that regard.
I was thinking of the sort of "transit-borne crime" that had the folks in
Linthicum, Maryland all in a lather. It seemed that it was *that* variety
that lay behind MARTA's operating those "domestic help" bus routes in
secret.
stephen allcroft
In article: <4q2a5j$j...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> bobf...@aol.com
(BobFarns) writes:
> Does this mean that stealth buses (developed at the Skunk Works) are
> used on the route?
When trolleybuses replaced trams in many UK cities in the 20's and 30's
there were complaints that they were so quiet one could not hear them
coming.
--
Stephen Allcroft
stephen allcroft
In article: <4prsco$7...@trumpet.uni-mannheim.de>
obe...@fim.informatik.uni-mannheim.de (Martin Bienwald) writes:
>
> By the way: _NO_ one here seems to have the opinion that transit
> produces crime. Some people even say that frequently running transit
> vehicles are a way to _counter_ some forms of crime.
Our local transit providers here in Newcastle upon Tyne think the same.
Metro services have been extended beyond midnight while we host the
group stages of Euro 96.
Interestingly all the Metro carriages carry good luck messages in the
langauages of the countries we play host to.
--
Stephen Allcroft
Lee Baylor
Transit authorities were damned if they did and damned if they didn't.
If they _did_ get in the charter bus business, they were criticized
for "unfairly" competing against private operators by using taxpayer
paid-for and maintained buses.
If they _didn't_ get in the charter bus business, they were
criticized for allowing taxpayer paid-for and maintained buses to
sit around idly during off-peak hours, when they could be out in
charter service earning money to ease the burden on taxpayers.
Some years ago the private intercity and charter bus ...er, I mean the
private intercity and charter _motor coach_ (cough) industry
persuaded Congress to pass legislation requiring transit authorities
receiving federal aid to price their charter services at rates
comparable to private operators.
This effectively killed transit authority charter business.
Transit fleets are mostly made up of, well, transit buses. Private
operator fleets are mostly made up of over-the-road coaches with
restrooms, plush reclining seating, individually controlled
overhead lights, underfloor baggage storage, etc. Naturally,
given a choice between a transit bus and an over-the-road coach
at the same price, most people will choose the latter.
--
Lee Baylor
lee.b...@net-link.com
Ray Mullins
In article <4q4gv9$c...@lester.appstate.edu>,
their charter business can be very successful. The examples that
come to mind right away are DART and Houston METRO. Others that have
those type of buses are Denver RTD and Golden Gate Transit, although
I know that RTD doesn't operate many charters, and I don't know
about GGT, although I haven't looked at their web page lately
(http://www.goldengate.org/).
Who else operates motor coach-type buses?
Later,
Ray
Colin R. Leech
>>>If your city has covert/secret transit operations, how well
>>>do they work there?
The public doesn't realize it, but OC Transpo actually operates 24 hours
per day (shhhh, don't tell anybody).
After the last regular buses drift into the garage around 1:30, and before
the first runs of the next morning around 4:00 am, there are buses out
shuttling the drivers home, and picking up those who work the earliest
shifts for the next day. These "work buses" are not open to the public, but
they do carry 900-series route numbers, to differentiate multiple runs
(from multiple garages) from each other. If you're up at that time of the
morning, you may see a bus marked something like "952 Special" roaming
around the streets of Ottawa-Carleton. They operate in a demand-responsive
mode although there is a basic route of driver pickups pre-defined.
There are also fixed route shuttle vans operating during the day between
various garages and Transitway stations, again to make the drivers' life
easier travelling between shifts. Two of our garages are located in places
that are a real pain to get to by transit from most areas.
--
##### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag414 or crl...@freenet.carleton.ca
##### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
##### > < Opinions are my own. Consider them shareware if you want.
##### >_./|\._< "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown
Matthew Mitchell
In article <4q3e7k$n...@shell1.cybercom.net>,
rne...@shell1.cybercom.net (Ron Newman) wrote:
>Why did the Federal government want to prevent mass transit
>operators from competing for charter business? Shouldn't transit
>authorities be free to seek out additional sources of revenues wherever
>they wish?
Private-sector operators objected. On the face of it, they have a
legitimate beef.
The way contracts are (unfortunately) it would be pretty rare for a
public-sector agency to be able to outbid a private contractor as long as
the playing field remains level.
Big Don
On Tue, 18 Jun 1996, Exile on Market Street wrote:
> In article <4q3i97$h...@vidar.diku.dk>, mak...@diku.dk (Henning Makholm) wrote:
>
> > Where have Big Don gone?? I didn't notice him leaving (since I
> > killfiled his ISP several months ago :)
>
> You should revise your killfile. I've seen other users of eskimo.com have
> at Big Don in this very newsgroup (although usually in threads crossposted
> to one of the seattle.* newsgroups).
>
Big Don's guts are well-hated except by the silent majority of
hard-working honest folks whose sky-rocketing careers would be impacted
if their sympathies were leaked publicly....
Big Don
No PS8Scum LOOTers !!
Martin Bienwald
Henning Makholm (mak...@diku.dk) wrote:
: obe...@fim.informatik.uni-mannheim.de (Martin Bienwald) writes:
: >By the way: _NO_ one here seems to have the opinion that transit produces
: >crime.
: Where have Big Don gone?? I didn't notice him leaving (since I
: killfiled his ISP several months ago :)
By saying 'here' I meant 'in Europe'. Of course, BigDon has been busy spamming
all the time ...
-- Martin --
Phillips, III J. A.
Big Don wrote:
> Big Don's guts are well-hated except by the silent majority of hard-working honest folks whose sky-rocketing careers would be impacted if their sympathies were leaked publicly....- Big Don- No PS8Scum LOOTers !!
Cuckoo! Cuckoo!
Warmest regards,
JPhillips
Guy Clinton Greenwood
In some areas public transportation is FORCED to do school trippers.
Considering the damage the little rascals do to the buses, why would they
want to do school trippers?
Ron Newman (rne...@shell1.cybercom.net) wrote:
: In article <ADE82C109...@ts11-38.upenn.edu>,
: Matthew Mitchell <mmit...@libertynet.org> wrote:
: >Wrong. The reason the 'school trippers' had to be converted to fixed-route
: >service on public schedules was a Federal law intended to prevent publicly-
: >subsidized mass transit operators from competing for charter business with
: >private bus companies.
: Why did the Federal government want to prevent publicly-subsidized mass transit
: operators from competing for charter business? Shouldn't transit
: authorities be free to seek out additional sources of revenues wherever
: they wish?
: If a transit authority acquires a good reputation as a charter
BobFarns
Ron Newman (rne...@shell1.cybercom.net (Ron Newman)) wrote:
Date: 17 Jun 1996 07:06:28 -0400
/In article <ADE82C109...@ts11-38.upenn.edu>,
/Matthew Mitchell <mmit...@libertynet.org> wrote:
/>Wrong. The reason the 'school trippers' had to be converted to
fixed-route
/>service on public schedules was a Federal law intended to prevent
publicly-
/>subsidized mass transit operators from competing for charter business
with
/>private bus companies.
/Why did the Federal government want to prevent publicly-subsidized mass
transit
/operators from competing for charter business? Shouldn't transit
/authorities be free to seek out additional sources of revenues wherever
/they wish?
The FTA only prevents transit authorities from using Section 9 (over 50k
population in service area) or Section 18 (under 50k in service area)
money for charter operations. Authorities still may operate charter
operations as long as costs are separated from other operations.
/If a transit authority acquires a good reputation as a charter
/operator, perhaps the charter customers will start to patronize
/the transit authority's regular service as well. This can only
/be a win for all concerned.
This statement is logical from the marketing perspective. The rationale
goes beyond just the quality of charter services. The public and
potential riderhip base can also look at cleanliness of buses, quality of
amenities at bus/train stops, and user-friendliness of park-and-rides, for
instance, in making buying decisions (whether or not to ride transit).
Herc Wad
Ron Newman wrote:
>Why did the Federal government want to prevent publicly-subsidized mass
>transit operators from competing for charter business? Shouldn't transit
>authorities be free to seek out additional sources of revenues wherever
>they wish?
Here's why. Transit companies would be using subsidy to cover the costs,
which would use more taxpayer money. Also, with subsidy, the transit
companies could undercut fares so much that they can drive out
competition.
>If a transit authority acquires a good reputation as a charter
>operator, perhaps the charter customers will start to patronize
>the transit authority's regular service as well. This can only
>be a win for all concerned.
I think the best thing to do is for a transit company to buy out a charter
company. Keep the current management, but have money circulated. A
partnership would mean nothing.
There are other ways for a transit company to get money. For example, on
the la.transportation group, we discovered that LACMTA started a Web site,
but their domain was mta.net. We were wondering how did LACMTA become a
net. We threw around the idea about LACMTA starting an Internet carrier
service. That could be one way for a transit company to earn revenue.
"What are people from Holland called, Holes?"---Seen on a Heineken ad
Altruism is as self-serving as greed.
Wayne Bell
crl...@freenet.carleton.ca (Colin R. Leech) wrote:
>>>>If your city has covert/secret transit operations, how well
>>>>do they work there?
>The public doesn't realize it, but OC Transpo actually operates 24 hours
>per day (shhhh, don't tell anybody).
>After the last regular buses drift into the garage around 1:30, and before
>the first runs of the next morning around 4:00 am, there are buses out
>shuttling the drivers home, and picking up those who work the earliest
>shifts for the next day. These "work buses" are not open to the public, but
>they do carry 900-series route numbers, to differentiate multiple runs
>(from multiple garages) from each other. If you're up at that time of the
>morning, you may see a bus marked something like "952 Special" roaming
>around the streets of Ottawa-Carleton. They operate in a demand-responsive
>mode although there is a basic route of driver pickups pre-defined.
>There are also fixed route shuttle vans operating during the day between
>various garages and Transitway stations, again to make the drivers' life
>easier travelling between shifts. Two of our garages are located in places
>that are a real pain to get to by transit from most areas.
This service for drivers is a bus drivers dream. There are at least 4
locations in this area that take upwards of 30 minutes to travel. Some
locations must be walked to in order to get a connecting bus. The
drivers are being paid travel time to get to these destinations but
when service is provided directly, it means a lot.
>--
>##### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag414 or crl...@freenet.carleton.ca
>##### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
>##### > < Opinions are my own. Consider them shareware if you want.
>##### >_./|\._< "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown
Wayne
There is only one thing worse than being talked about...
And that is not being talked about.
Oscar Wilde
Wayne Bell
tas...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Daniel P Tasman) wrote:
>Students attending a school more than a mile and a half from their
>residence in the Buffalo Public School District are given bus passes,
>which enable them to travel on any NFTA bus or rail route to and fron
>school at no charge.
>Special NFTA school routes, which are based on regular bus routes but
>originate from the schools, are not listed on schedules.
The point I would like to make on this issue is:
If the student pass is distributed to students to get to and from
school (at taxpayers expense) then why are the passes honoured at all
times of the day and evening.
I think that school passes should be used up to a certain hour and not
after. 8:00P.M. at night for instance.
Wayne
Jim in San Francisco
I like this. They have to run a transit system to get the
transit workers to their jobs on the system.
Glen Quigley
And the irony was that in Miami the largest charterer of transit busses
was the sightseeing company who had the contract to transfer cruise
passengers between the air and sea ports, and hotel to convention center
shuttles. Most of this work was done on weekends and they chartered 20 to
50 busses every weekend. Big OT for senior drivers.
Lee Baylor (lee.b...@net-link.com) wrote:
: Transit authorities were damned if they did and damned if they didn't.
: If they _did_ get in the charter bus business, they were criticized
: for "unfairly" competing against private operators by using taxpayer
: paid-for and maintained buses.
: If they _didn't_ get in the charter bus business, they were
: criticized for allowing taxpayer paid-for and maintained buses to
: sit around idly during off-peak hours, when they could be out in
: charter service earning money to ease the burden on taxpayers.
: Some years ago the private intercity and charter bus ...er, I mean the
: private intercity and charter _motor coach_ (cough) industry
: persuaded Congress to pass legislation requiring transit authorities
: receiving federal aid to price their charter services at rates
: comparable to private operators.
: This effectively killed transit authority charter business.
: Transit fleets are mostly made up of, well, transit buses. Private
: operator fleets are mostly made up of over-the-road coaches with
: restrooms, plush reclining seating, individually controlled
: overhead lights, underfloor baggage storage, etc. Naturally,
: given a choice between a transit bus and an over-the-road coach
: at the same price, most people will choose the latter.
: --
: Lee Baylor
: lee.b...@net-link.com
--
Glen Quigley
d015...@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Don Scheidt
Big Don <big...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>Big Don's guts are well-hated
Well! BD gets one right for a change! (remainder
of post was considered overly specific and redundant,
therefore trimmed. ;-})
--
Don Scheidt, dgs...@case.cyberspace.com
also at: dgs...@teleport.com
Browse the Northwest BrewPage
URL: http://www.teleport.com/~dgs1300/index.shtml
Not A Speck of Cereal
dgs...@teleport.com (Don Scheidt) wrote:
[] Big Don <big...@eskimo.com> wrote:
[]
[] >Big Don's guts are well-hated
[]
[] Well! BD gets one right for a change! (remainder
[] of post was considered overly specific and redundant,
[] therefore trimmed. ;-})
Thanks DonS, I find your digest most useful when dealing
with Big Don bytes. Not A Speck (that's me, for you 3rd
person impaired) appreciates it.
Chris
PS: Big Don, the lovely hamlet of Algona Pacific... my big
brother used to drag-race his car their back when A/P was
nothing but a gas station. He use to buy his pot there too.
We lived in Auburn (another lovely hamlet, the fragile
environment and historical atmosphere of which must be
protected). Frankly, I think I would rather live in Tacoma,
if those were my only choices.
Chris,
Snohomish, WA.
----
"Great Tambourine overdub! Now where's that smokin' guitar solo
we recorded last night?" -- George Petersen
............................................................
chri...@microsoft.com -- Snohomish, WA. -- Studio Ponderous
[These opinions are personal views only and only my personal views]
Charles P. Hobbs
jgsz...@library.uwaterloo.ca (Wayne Bell) wrote:
>
>The point I would like to make on this issue is:
>If the student pass is distributed to students to get to and from
>school (at taxpayers expense) then why are the passes honoured at all
>times of the day and evening.
>
>I think that school passes should be used up to a certain hour and not
>after. 8:00P.M. at night for instance.
>
Some agencies only honor school fares during school hours, or to/from
school activities; other agencies honor them all the time, to
any destination (although, in that case, they may be called "youth
fares") . . .
Gsoma
>crl...@freenet.carleton.ca (Colin R. Leech) wrote:
>
>>>>>If your city has covert/secret transit operations, how well
>>>>>do they work there?
>
>>The public doesn't realize it, but OC Transpo actually operates 24 hours
>>per day (shhhh, don't tell anybody).
>
>>After the last regular buses drift into the garage around 1:30, and
before
>>the first runs of the next morning around 4:00 am, there are buses out
>>shuttling the drivers home, and picking up those who work the earliest
>>shifts for the next day. These "work buses"
{chop chop}
>>There are also fixed route shuttle vans operating during the day between
>>various garages and Transitway stations,
{chop chop again}
and jgsz...@library.uwaterloo.ca (Wayne Bell) writes:
>This service for drivers is a bus drivers dream. There are at least 4
>locations in this area that take upwards of 30 minutes to travel. Some
>locations must be walked to in order to get a connecting bus. The
>drivers are being paid travel time to get to these destinations but
>when service is provided directly, it means a lot.
Do you mean to say that your transit company pays you while on your way to
work?
---
Somebody tell the IRS there is nothing gross about income.
Fred B Young Jr
"Charles P. Hobbs" <tra...@primenet.com> wrote:
>m...@lerami.lerctr.org (Ray Mullins) wrote:
>>Years ago, SCRTD used to operate "subscription service", numbered in
>>the 500 series, that were meant for employees of (and funded by) ARCO,
>>Prudential Insurance, and others. There were no timetables, you
>>could not get information about them from the regular information
>>operators (gee, kind of like now :) ), and the only route map and schedule
>>printed were on the paddles used by the drivers.
>>
>
>These services were essentially buspools (requiring monthly fares)
>partially subsidized by the involved employers (I think).
>
>Eventually, many of these routes were absorbed into the regular
>route network as express and/or park/ride services. For example: the
>route between Westlake Village and Downtown became the #123 (which
>was later renumbered into #423)
<snip>
I think the 413 (or is it the 419) and the 448 grew out of old subscription routes. It's
ironic that now most of these are operated by LADOT/Commuter Express.
Fred B. Young Jr.
USC-University of Southern California
yo...@bcf.usc.edu
Colin R. Leech
Ron Newman (rne...@shell1.cybercom.net) writes:
> In article <ADE82C109...@ts11-38.upenn.edu>,
> Matthew Mitchell <mmit...@libertynet.org> wrote:
>
>>Wrong. The reason the 'school trippers' had to be converted to fixed-route
>>service on public schedules was a Federal law intended to prevent publicly-
>>subsidized mass transit operators from competing for charter business with
>>private bus companies.
>
> Why did the Federal government want to prevent publicly-subsidized mass transit
> operators from competing for charter business? Shouldn't transit
> authorities be free to seek out additional sources of revenues wherever
> they wish?
It's one of those "free enterprise" ideology things. Government subsidies
shouldn't be used to undercut private enterprises (or so the theory goes).
There is a different practical consideration in many jurisdictions. For
example, here in Ontario, driving a school-purposes bus requires a licence
separate from a 'normal' bus driver's licence, and the vehicle itself must
be yellow with black stripes, flashing lights, an arm with a STOP sign on
the driver's side, etc. Transit buses don't meet these criteria.
Therefore, transit commissions are not legally allowed to operate "school
buses". Instead, these trips must be available for all passengers to use
(just like any other trip scheduled into the system), despite starting in
locations and at times that mean virtually everybody on them is a school
kid. :-)
OC Transpo used to have a couple of routes that were pretty much school
buses, but now all of the "supplemental trips" (can't say "school trips" -
see above :-) are supplemental trips on regular routes, with occasional
minor variations in routing. These generally don't appear on the public
timetables, as they are considered as supplementing regular trips
wherever overloads occur, and don't operate unless an overload is
anticipated. There would appear to be a market, however, to introduce new
route numbers of services that are sufficiently different from the existing
regular routes.
Colin R. Leech
Henning Makholm (mak...@diku.dk) writes:
> obe...@fim.informatik.uni-mannheim.de (Martin Bienwald) writes:
>
>>By the way: _NO_ one here seems to have the opinion that transit produces
>>crime.
>
> Where have Big Don gone?? I didn't notice him leaving (since I
> killfiled his ISP several months ago :)
I'll agree with one of the earlier posters who mentioned that the "secret"
trips catering primarily to school crowds can sometimes have more problems
with grafitti, vandalism, rowdyism, etc. than the regular service. Certain
schools are noted for their rowdies, while others are quite well behaved.
Richard Eyre-Eagles
Charles P. Hobbs (tra...@primenet.com) wrote:
:>m...@lerami.lerctr.org (Ray Mullins) wrote:
:>>Years ago, SCRTD used to operate "subscription service", numbered in
:>>the 500 series, that were meant for employees of (and funded by) ARCO,
<SNP>
:>Eventually, many of these routes were absorbed into the regular
:>route network as express and/or park/ride services. For example: the
:>route between Westlake Village and Downtown became the #123 (which
:>was later renumbered into #423)
I think there was a 504 that went to Victory & Platt, that was replaced
by the 427.
One that I do know about is the old 511 that dropped passengers off at
Mason & Hiawatha (south end of Mason Park). This line was modified and
became the 419.
I still have a couple of old dashcards for the 511. I also have a
dashcard that reads VICTORY-PLATT EXPRESS/FINANCIAL CENTER EXPRESS
Buses would use the headsign [511][ Special ] on subscription runs.
(Anyone remember for a short time when operators were instructed to use
[ Special ] instead of [Not in Service] when deadheading???)
I miss the old subscription runs, they used to run the T8H5307s. The 1000
series. They dont dare run a flx (57xx) on the 511!
Just got my mail that has been sitting in a mailbox in Pahrump, NV for
several months, looks like LACMTA has canned the 228, extended the 166 &
167 and finnally put mid-day service back on Woodley Avenue (Line 236).
Has there been any changes in the Valley since then???
--
==================================================================
Richard Eyre-Eagles, KJ7MU | "The opinions expressed are not
Tempe, Arizona | those of anyone but myself"
==================================================================
goodnet is good
primenet is bad
Arizona, you have a choice
Hank Eisenstein
Lee Baylor wrote:
>
> Transit authorities were damned if they did and damned if they didn't.
>
> If they _did_ get in the charter bus business, they were criticized
> for "unfairly" competing against private operators by using taxpayer
> paid-for and maintained buses.
>
> If they _didn't_ get in the charter bus business, they were
> criticized for allowing taxpayer paid-for and maintained buses to
> sit around idly during off-peak hours, when they could be out in
> charter service earning money to ease the burden on taxpayers.
>
> Some years ago the private intercity and charter bus ...er, I mean the
> private intercity and charter _motor coach_ (cough) industry
> persuaded Congress to pass legislation requiring transit authorities
> receiving federal aid to price their charter services at rates
> comparable to private operators.
>
> This effectively killed transit authority charter business.
> Transit fleets are mostly made up of, well, transit buses. Private
> operator fleets are mostly made up of over-the-road coaches with
> restrooms, plush reclining seating, individually controlled
> overhead lights, underfloor baggage storage, etc. Naturally,
> given a choice between a transit bus and an over-the-road coach
> at the same price, most people will choose the latter.
>
> --
>
> Lee Baylor
> lee.b...@net-link.com
A lot of NJT routes are operated with busses owned by NJT, but operated
by a charter company. I have taken several charter trips on busses
lettered for NJT, but they had a stick that said
Owned by: New Jersey Transit Corporation
Operated by: Acadamy Tours
or some other company... (I use acadamy only as an example)
as oppossed to
Operated by: New Jersey Transit Bus Operations
BUt I've discovered that most, if not all of NJT's fleet is owned by the
Port Authority, and leased to NJT. I've seen this on NYCTA buses, too,
and most recently, a small steel plate on an R62A that said
Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, Owner and Leassor.
Apparently, it's some sort of standard practice in the NYC area, because
the more I looked around, the more I noticed it on MNCR and LIRR
railcars, too. But most of the TA leased bus fleet is gone, or at the
very least relettered for MTA NYCB.
-hank
quAc|<
Big Don
On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Don Scheidt wrote:
> Big Don <big...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>
> >Big Don's guts are well-hated
>
> Well! BD gets one right for a change! (remainder
> of post was considered overly specific and redundant,
> therefore trimmed. ;-})
> --
>
> Don Scheidt, dgs...@case.cyberspace.com
Mr. Scheidt wins the LOOT_Selective_Quoting_of_the_Month Award for June...
S'pose he lives in Tacoma?
Big Don
No PS8Scum !!
Don Scheidt
Big Don <big...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Don Scheidt wrote:
>> Big Don <big...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Big Don's guts are well-hated
>>
>> Well! BD gets one right for a change! (remainder
>> of post was considered overly specific and redundant,
>> therefore trimmed. ;-})
>Mr. Scheidt wins the LOOT_Selective_Quoting_of_the_Month Award for June...
>S'pose he lives in Tacoma?
Damn. Let's see: the header of my posting is from a system in
Portland (but accessible from a fairly big chunk of Willametteland
in OR), my .sig indicates a system in Seattle (so most of King and southern
Snohomish counties in WA), so we do a little geographical averaging, and
of course... voila! I must be a Tacoman! We will ignore the incovenient
reality that I am, in fact, not a Tacoma resident, but wot the hell...
I think it's time to take one of those secret crime-free transit routes
somewhere now, just because I like to. Yes.
Colin R. Leech
Wayne Bell (jgsz...@library.uwaterloo.ca) writes:
> The point I would like to make on this issue is:
> If the student pass is distributed to students to get to and from
> school (at taxpayers expense) then why are the passes honoured at all
> times of the day and evening.
>
> I think that school passes should be used up to a certain hour and not
> after. 8:00P.M. at night for instance.
In some cities, the bus drivers complain about such systems because it
creates too many different types of passes. You have to spend that extra
few seconds per passenger trying to figure out whether the pass is valid
at all times, or restricted times, and then deciding whether you've passed
the crossover time or not. Many people feel it's just not worth the hassle.
Colin R. Leech
Glen Quigley (d015...@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us) writes:
> : Some years ago the private intercity and charter bus ...er, I mean the
> : private intercity and charter _motor coach_ (cough) industry
> : persuaded Congress to pass legislation requiring transit authorities
> : receiving federal aid to price their charter services at rates
> : comparable to private operators.
>
> : This effectively killed transit authority charter business.
> : Transit fleets are mostly made up of, well, transit buses. Private
> : operator fleets are mostly made up of over-the-road coaches with
> : restrooms, plush reclining seating, individually controlled
> : overhead lights, underfloor baggage storage, etc.
But the transit operators would still compete effectively against the
school bus operators who charter during offhours.
Colin R. Leech
Wayne Bell (jgsz...@library.uwaterloo.ca) writes:
> This service for drivers is a bus drivers dream. There are at least 4
> locations in this area that take upwards of 30 minutes to travel. Some
> locations must be walked to in order to get a connecting bus. The
> drivers are being paid travel time to get to these destinations but
> when service is provided directly, it means a lot.
That's the key difference: OC Transpo drivers are *not* paid travel time
to or between shifts. There is an agreement with the union that the number
of reliefs occuring at Transitway stations (as opposed to elsewhere) will
be maximized (sorry I don't know the percentages), so that there is fast
and frequent service available to get to other places (eg. back to the
garage to pick up your car).
As long as you're getting paid, why should you care if you're actually
driving, or travelling between locations? In a sense, you are getting paid
for time that you aren't actually working.
Fred B Young Jr
r...@goodguy.goodnet.com (Richard Eyre-Eagles) wrote:
<snip>
>I still have a couple of old dashcards for the 511. I also have a
>dashcard that reads VICTORY-PLATT EXPRESS/FINANCIAL CENTER EXPRESS
>Buses would use the headsign [511][ Special ] on subscription runs.
>
>(Anyone remember for a short time when operators were instructed to use
>[ Special ] instead of [Not in Service] when deadheading???)
Yes. It was around 1979-1980. I don't know what they were trying to accomplish.
It was confusing, because there were some routes, like the 871 who had a
"Discharge Only" portion, and the drivers would change the headsign to "Special"
for this part of the route. (This was before the buses with the electronic headsigns
which featured a "Discharge Only" sign).
>
>I miss the old subscription runs, they used to run the T8H5307s. The 1000
>series. They dont dare run a flx (57xx) on the 511!
When I lived in the Wilshire District from 1977-1979, I used to see 1000s on the 512
and 514. (In fact, Div 7 took away most of Div. 6 1000s to run these routes).
James D. Umbach
In <4qlc79$u...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
(Colin R. Leech) writes:
>
>
>Wayne Bell (jgsz...@library.uwaterloo.ca) writes:
>> The point I would like to make on this issue is:
>> If the student pass is distributed to students to get to and from
>> school (at taxpayers expense) then why are the passes honoured at
all
>> times of the day and evening.
>>
>> I think that school passes should be used up to a certain hour and
not
>> after. 8:00P.M. at night for instance.
I think that they should be honored at all times, in order to encourage
the students to use transit. They will come to like the system, and
continue using it even after school is out. Then, after they graduate
they will have become accustomed to transit and the habit will be
engrained. Like me for instance, although I have a vehicle I drive as
little as possible and prefer to ride the bus.
James D. Umbach
Citrus Heights, CA, USA
Acts 2:4
New e-mail address effective 1JUL96:
apo...@visionnet.net
Henning Makholm
smi...@pobox.upenn.edu (Exile on Market Street) writes:
>> Where have Big Don gone?? I didn't notice him leaving (since I
>> killfiled his ISP several months ago :)
>
>You should revise your killfile. I've seen other users of eskimo.com have
>at Big Don in this very newsgroup
Well, my trouble is that my newsreader is not smart enough to note the
message-id of killfiled articles and later killing replies to
them. So I have to killfile everything with eskimo.com in the
references: header in order not to spend even more time reading
bigdon-quotes than I would just skipping over his articles.
(if anyone knows how to get gnus/emacs to behave smarter, feel free to
email me!) :-)
--
Henning Makholm - math and CS student - University of Copenhagen
mak...@diku.dk - http://www.diku.dk/students/makholm - fido 2:235/224.92
--
--
Henning Makholm - math and CS student - University of Copenhagen
mak...@diku.dk - http://www.diku.dk/students/makholm - fido 2:235/224.92
mr._damon_kelly
In article <4q78n5$n...@crl10.crl.com>,
Guy Clinton Greenwood <k...@crl.com> wrote:
>In some areas public transportation is FORCED to do school trippers.
>Considering the damage the little rascals do to the buses, why would they
>want to do school trippers?
Probably for the same reason that many school districts must maintain
school bus fleets for themselves: the population of kids served is
spread out. The school authorities (in this case) can't afford
separate fleets, so the local legislatures require the public transit
authorities to provide service.
-d
--
There's nothing *particularly* "cool" about my web page, as it focuses
on information not .GIFfed-up-the-wazoo wallpaper designed to distract
you from the well of nothingness present on other homepages:
http://research.umbc.edu/~damon
RickStern8
In prior posts, the following appeared:
Ron Newman (rne...@shell1.cybercom.net) writes:
> In article <ADE82C109...@ts11-38.upenn.edu>,
> Matthew Mitchell <mmit...@libertynet.org> wrote:
>
>>Wrong. The reason the 'school trippers' had to be converted to
fixed-route
>>service on public schedules was a Federal law intended to prevent
publicly-
>>subsidized mass transit operators from competing for charter business
with
>>private bus companies.
>
> Why did the Federal government want to prevent publicly-subsidized mass
transit
> operators from competing for charter business? Shouldn't transit
> authorities be free to seek out additional sources of revenues wherever
> they wish?
There were a number of agencies that abused their federally-funded
facilities and vehicles. I recall seeing transit buses from one city
several states away at an airport, with "charter" posted on the detination
sign. I discussed this with the manager of the transit agency (a friend
of mine) who confirmed that they were running interstate charters, without
certification (which was required in those pre-deregulation days).
Another transit agency went into the truck washing business with a
federally funded, overbuilt wash rack.
The actual amount of money these things generated wasn't that great, but
it pissed off the private operators. All it took was a few extreme
abuses, and the feds ruled out the entire thing.
However, the way the rules are written, transit systems can still operate
charters. They have to have a private operator who will take the charter
orders, do the billing and use its own vehicles until "out of capacity",
at which point they can subcontract to the transit agency. Several
transit agencies make this a regular service procurement to find the
"front". Also, school service can be operated as a regular route, open to
the public, as long as a schedule is printed. There are ways around the
rules, cumbersome, but effective anyway.
Rick
Robert Coe
On 17 Jun 1996 07:06:28 -0400, rne...@shell1.cybercom.net (Ron Newman)
wrote:
: Why did the Federal government want to prevent publicly-subsidized mass
: transit operators from competing for charter business? Shouldn't transit
: authorities be free to seek out additional sources of revenues wherever
: they wish?
The answer must be that the charter bus operators contributed to the
politicians' campaigns. I should think that was obvious.
--
___ _ - Bob
/__) _ / / ) _ _
(_/__) (_)_(_) (___(_)_(/_____________________________________ b...@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, MA 01776-2120 USA ** 508-443-3265
Eric Rosenberg
RickStern8 (ricks...@aol.com) wrote:
: However, the way the rules are written, transit systems can still operate
: charters. They have to have a private operator who will take the charter
: orders, do the billing and use its own vehicles until "out of capacity",
: at which point they can subcontract to the transit agency. Several
: transit agencies make this a regular service procurement to find the
: "front". Also, school service can be operated as a regular route, open to
: the public, as long as a schedule is printed. There are ways around the
: rules, cumbersome, but effective anyway.
They can also provide charters if there are no local companies providing
similar services. This usually only applies to Light Rail/Trolly
charters. SCVTA (San Jose, CA) has chartered the historic trollies it
operates.
--
Eric Rosenberg
She stared at her vast mistake and thought: The eighth deadly sin
is really stupidity. And ignorance.
Lois McMaster Bujold - "Spirit Ring"
Robert Coe
On 24 Jun 1996 06:22:33 GMT, ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech)
wrote:
: In some cities, the bus drivers complain about such systems because it
: creates too many different types of passes. You have to spend that extra
: few seconds per passenger trying to figure out whether the pass is valid
: at all times, or restricted times, and then deciding whether you've passed
: the crossover time or not. Many people feel it's just not worth the hassle.
MBTA passes have a magnetic stripe, and riders swipe them through a slot
in the farebox. If the pass is valid, the box beeps and increments the
passenger count. AFAIK, all passes are valid at all times, so I suspect
that the only real purpose of swiping the passes (instead of merely
having the operator eyeball them) is to get an accurate passenger count.
But presumably the boxes could be programmed to check the time and
reject a pass that is being used outside of its range of validity.
Robert Coe
On 25 Jun 1996 03:24:33 GMT, j_um...@ix.netcom.com(James D. Umbach)
wrote:
: I think that [school passes] should be honored at all times, in order
: to encourage the students to use transit. They will come to like the
: system, and continue using it even after school is out. Then, after
: they graduate they will have become accustomed to transit and the
: habit will be engrained. Like me for instance, although I have a
: vehicle I drive as little as possible and prefer to ride the bus.
Hey, maybe there's hope for "Synergy" yet!! If we could just get his
parents to stop driving him to school ...
Scott Moore
Robert Coe wrote:
> MBTA passes have a magnetic stripe, and riders swipe them through a slot
> in the farebox. If the pass is valid, the box beeps and increments the
> passenger count. AFAIK, all passes are valid at all times, so I suspect
> that the only real purpose of swiping the passes (instead of merely
> having the operator eyeball them) is to get an accurate passenger count.
> But presumably the boxes could be programmed to check the time and
> reject a pass that is being used outside of its range of validity.
The swipe reader on the fareboxes is to prevent the use of "cut" passes.
When the driver's had to "see" the pass, especially at heavier stops,
they would simply glance at the pass anyway you showed it to the driver.
I used to ride with a motorman on the Green Line who asked this guy to
remove the pass from his wallet. The pass was partially visible in one
of the pockets. Well, a brief argument ensued and finally the pass was
removed from the wallet with a lame explanation - the pass was cut in
half! Another woman (his wife?) also had a cut in half pass, but she
had the other half! What some people will do to save a buck!
Also, on the Green Line and the express bus routes, the fare zones
require different passes for different legs of the route. With the
farebox now controlling the "validity" of the pass, fewer arguments
ensue.
Scott Moore
The New England Transportation Site
http://members.aol.com/netransit
Matthew Mitchell
In article <31dfb2b8....@News.TIAC.NET>,
b...@1776.COM (Robert Coe) wrote:
>MBTA passes have a magnetic stripe, and riders swipe them through a slot
>in the farebox. If the pass is valid, the box beeps and increments the
>passenger count. AFAIK, all passes are valid at all times, so I suspect
>that the only real purpose of swiping the passes (instead of merely
>having the operator eyeball them) is to get an accurate passenger count.
>But presumably the boxes could be programmed to check the time and
>reject a pass that is being used outside of its range of validity.
Yep. It's very simple to do.
/_\ Matthew Mitchell, Newsletter Editor
/[ ]\ Delaware Valley Association of Railroad Passengers
/ | \ PO Box 7505, Philadelphia PA 19101-7505
/ _|_ \ voice: 215-673-6445-message box 3, fax 215-885-7448
--------- http://www.libertynet.org/~dvarp
Gsoma
Scott Moore <scm...@lynx.neu.edu> writes:
>Well, a brief argument ensued and finally the pass was
>removed from the wallet with a lame explanation - the pass was cut in
>half! Another woman (his wife?) also had a cut in half pass, but she
>had the other half! What some people will do to save a buck!
>
>
This reminds of a group of 3 people who show the driver only 2 passes.
1st one gets on and sits down out of view of the driver giving the "I'm
looking for it" excuse while the other 2 show their pass's(?) to the
driver and sit down. Suddenly the first one that got on shows the driver a
pass that one of the others has already shown the driver.
Otha Stubblefield
gs...@aol.com (Gsoma) writes:
>Scott Moore <scm...@lynx.neu.edu> writes:
...or the window variation where person A gets on, shows the pass, goes to
the back and gives the pass to person B outside. I saw this frequently
in middle and senior high school.