Pittsburgh PA Discontinues Trolley
Tom or Mary
abondoned on Sept 5. Go to http://triblive.com and follow links to read
the entire story. The stories on only on the page today 7/20. Story
includes a map. See below for part of it.
Drake trolley nearing final run
Minibus route to take over in September
By Eric Heyl
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Claire Thornburgh's two children reveled in their ride on the
rickety trolley car, but their mother was wistful over the
antiquated vehicle's impending journey into Pittsburgh's past.
"It's always great going around the loop, hearing the trolley
screeching as it starts and stops," Thornburgh said Monday
aboard the 47D Drake trolley as it slowly snaked through a
wooded area of Bethel Park. "We've loved riding this old trolley."
Not for much longer.
Beginning Sept. 5, the aging Drake line will be replaced with a new
minibus route, the 35A South Park. The move signals the end of the line
for the last of the old-style Presidential Conference Committee trolleys
that once were ubiquitous on local streets.
Tom
Jon Bell
Tom or Mary <tomb...@city-net.com> wrote:
>
> Beginning Sept. 5, the aging Drake line will be replaced with a new
>minibus route, the 35A South Park. The move signals the end of the line
>for the last of the old-style Presidential Conference Committee trolleys
>that once were ubiquitous on local streets.
Thanks for posting that! I was thinking of visiting Pittsburgh around the
second week in August, between summer school and beginning of fall
semester. One of the main goals of that trip was going to be to
photograph the Drake line. So it looks like it's going to have to be then
or never.
--
Jon Bell <jtb...@presby.edu>
http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/
Ron Newman
> One of the trolley lines which runs a "Presidential Car" will be
> abondoned on Sept 5. Go to http://triblive.com and follow links to read
> the entire story. The stories on only on the page today 7/20. Story
> includes a map. See below for part of it.
Please post the entire story if you still have it. A lot of people
didn't see your message until after 7/20.
--
Ron Newman rne...@thecia.net
http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/
Tom or Mary
was not listed. Maybe they transfer the stories to their archive a few
days later. I would have posted the entire story, but the "line endings"
get messed up, and the article looks disjointed. If their is a trick to
keeping the line endings correct when you copy and paste let me know.
Tom
Wolfgang Auer
>Beginning Sept. 5, the aging Drake line [47D] will be replaced with a
>new minibus route, the 35A South Park.
What a pity! Even though this route doesn't seem to be the most
important one, as far as I know, it would have been a chance for
Pittsburgh to follow the worldwide tendency back to
trams/trolleys/streetcars at long last. It's hard to understand
what terrible dismantling has happened to this city's unique
trolley system during the first years of PAT ownership. It's even
harder to understand that this city's transit authorities
apparently still don't really want to at least keep the poor
remnants of what used to be one of America's most interesting and
largest trolley networks.
Even if it fortunately isn't *that* bad here by far, the situation
slightly reminds me of my hometown, Wien (Vienna, Austria), where
we are very unlikely to see any new tram route in a mid term view,
but rather a continuing of the dismantling of the tram system by
the construction of poorly designed, unnecessary, overkill subway
routes. Currently, trams just are completely "out" here among
politicians and the transit authorities :-(
Sad.
Best regards from Wien (Vienna, Austria), Wolfgang
--
Wolfgang Auer --------------------------------- ohne AUTO doppelt MOBIL
http://qspr03.tuwien.ac.at/~wauer/ --- mailto:wa...@qspr03.tuwien.ac.at
Wolfgang Auer
Jon Bell wrote:
>I was thinking of visiting Pittsburgh around the second week in
>August, between summer school and beginning of fall semester.
>One of the main goals of that trip was going to be to photograph
>the Drake line. So it looks like it's going to have to be then or
>never.
Jon, it would be really great if you could do this trip -- do you
plan to put some photographs on your excellent web pages
afterwards? If so, I should like to say thanks in advance for the
great service you place at the disposal of any transit fan for
free!
Bill Waller
the line to be abandoned is the segment from Dorchester to the Drake Loop.
Although the Authority made overtures toward renovating the section during it
Rail21 project, it seemed likely that any work on the line could not be
justified due to the total lack of ridership. This is not to say that the line
was operated in a manner which would be attractive to riders in general.
There were rumblings of upgrading the trackage to LRT standards, whatever those
are, but the advent of the STV sealed the death of the line. Operationally,
this is the only thing that the authority could do. The PCC cars are in
terrible shape and the cars that were used for spares have been scrapped. The
present LRVs will not fit on the line and the present final terminus (Drake
Loop) is such that the LRVs cannot even use the approach track.
Although I will miss the PCCs rumbling by as I commute to the city, the new
offering should make transportation available to a larger segment of the paying
population.
On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:56:32 GMT, wa...@qspr03.tuwien.ac.at (Wolfgang Auer)
wrote:
>Tom or Mary <tomb...@city-net.com> wrote:
>
>>Beginning Sept. 5, the aging Drake line [47D] will be replaced with a
>>new minibus route, the 35A South Park.
>
>What a pity! Even though this route doesn't seem to be the most
>important one, as far as I know, it would have been a chance for
>Pittsburgh to follow the worldwide tendency back to
>trams/trolleys/streetcars at long last. It's hard to understand
>what terrible dismantling has happened to this city's unique
>trolley system during the first years of PAT ownership. It's even
>harder to understand that this city's transit authorities
>apparently still don't really want to at least keep the poor
>remnants of what used to be one of America's most interesting and
>largest trolley networks.
>
>Even if it fortunately isn't *that* bad here by far, the situation
>slightly reminds me of my hometown, Wien (Vienna, Austria), where
>we are very unlikely to see any new tram route in a mid term view,
>but rather a continuing of the dismantling of the tram system by
>the construction of poorly designed, unnecessary, overkill subway
>routes. Currently, trams just are completely "out" here among
>politicians and the transit authorities :-(
>
>Sad.
>
>Best regards from Wien (Vienna, Austria), Wolfgang
Bill Waller, Bethel Park, PA
wsw...@adelphia.net
Steamtown 2000 - updates hosted at
http://www.webpraxis.ab.ca/vrr/
Click on Gate 10 Special Thanks to: Webpraxis Consulting Ltd.
Ron Newman
>There were rumblings of upgrading the trackage to LRT standards, whatever those
>are, but the advent of the STV sealed the death of the line.
What's an "STV" ?
>Although I will miss the PCCs rumbling by as I commute to the city, the new
>offering should make transportation available to a larger segment of the paying
>population.
What will the "new offering" be?
--
Ron Newman rne...@thecia.net
http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/home.html
David McLoughlin
> Even if it fortunately isn't *that* bad here by far, the situation
> slightly reminds me of my hometown, Wien (Vienna, Austria), where
> we are very unlikely to see any new tram route in a mid term view,
> but rather a continuing of the dismantling of the tram system by
> the construction of poorly designed, unnecessary, overkill subway
> routes. Currently, trams just are completely "out" here among
> politicians and the transit authorities :-(
All those lovely new ultra-low floor trams WVB's been putting into
service look bloody great for a city where trams are completely "out",
Wolfgang! I wish trams were as "out" where I live, or that we even had
some. :-)
David McLoughlin
Auckland New Zealand
Jon Bell
Bill Waller <wsw...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>Although the Authority made overtures toward renovating the section during it
>Rail21 project, it seemed likely that any work on the line could not be
>justified due to the total lack of ridership. This is not to say that the line
>was operated in a manner which would be attractive to riders in general.
A couple of years ago when I was visiting friends and relatives in Ohio,
my wife and I drove down to Pittsburgh for some sightseeing. I
specifically wanted to see the Drake line, so we drove to the end of the
line and found things basically unchanged from what I remembered from a
previous visit in the early 1970s: a simple concrete shelter and a small
unpaved parking area overhung with trees and shrubbery. There were *no*
cars parked there at all (even though it was late on a weekday morning),
which made my wife nervous about leaving our car there, and which made me
wonder whether the line was in service at all that day! We decided to
head for South Hills Village (terminal of the 42S light rail line)
instead; and as we pulled out of the "parking lot" at Drake, a PCC pulled
in, and then left almost immediately. So the line was running after all,
but I knew that the cars ran only every 40 minutes or so, so I wasn't
encouraged to stick around for the next one.
>There were rumblings of upgrading the trackage to LRT standards, whatever those
>are, but the advent of the STV sealed the death of the line.
What's the STV?
>Operationally,
>this is the only thing that the authority could do. The PCC cars are in
>terrible shape and the cars that were used for spares have been scrapped. The
>present LRVs will not fit on the line and the present final terminus (Drake
>Loop) is such that the LRVs cannot even use the approach track.
The Port Authority Transit web site (http://trfn.clpgh.org/patransit/) has
a "Capital Improvements" page (dated 5/99) which describes a planned
upgrade to the Drake line, with a new park-and-ride facility, "contingent
upon future funding availability." Heh.
--
Jon Bell <jtb...@presby.edu> Presbyterian College
Dept. of Physics and Computer Science Clinton, South Carolina USA
[ Information about newsgroups for beginners: ]
[ http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/6882/ ]
Jon Bell
Wolfgang Auer <wa...@qspr03.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>
>Jon Bell wrote:
>>I was thinking of visiting Pittsburgh around the second week in
>>August, between summer school and beginning of fall semester.
>>One of the main goals of that trip was going to be to photograph
>>the Drake line. So it looks like it's going to have to be then or
>>never.
>
>Jon, it would be really great if you could do this trip -- do you
>plan to put some photographs on your excellent web pages
>afterwards?
Of course. :-) If I do carry out this trip (not 100% certain yet),
I will probably end up with an entire page about the Drake line. This is
a sentimental thing for me, because I visited Pittsburgh a few times when
I was in high school, back around 1970, and rode the old PCCs on that
line (and others).
Bill Waller
>In article <379eaab3...@nntp.adelphia.net>, wsw...@adelphia.net says...
>
>>There were rumblings of upgrading the trackage to LRT standards, whatever those
>>are, but the advent of the STV sealed the death of the line.
>
>What's an "STV" ?
>
Sorry. STV: Small Transit Vehicle, in other words a 28 passenger bus. The Port
Authority introduced these on their 28X (Oakland-Airport) about two years ago.
They have just purchased 80 more and are deploying them on lessor traveled and
some new routes.
>>Although I will miss the PCCs rumbling by as I commute to the city, the new
>>offering should make transportation available to a larger segment of the paying
>>population.
>
>What will the "new offering" be?
The "new offering" is the 35A (South Park). The route will run from South Hills
Village to Century III Mall. At SHV there are connections with the 42S (light
rail) and another bus route. The route will cross the 42L (light rail) at Logan
Road. At Century III there are connections with several bus routes. The 35A
will operate on 60 minute headways. AM & PM short trips are planned in the
Brookside Farms area to facilitate rush hour commuters to and from the terminus
of the 42S at SHV. This portion of the service will theoretically cover the
immediate loss of service from the elimination of the 47D (Drake).
The Port Authority is beginning to fill in the gaps that are normally
associated with a spoked suburban system. The 35A and the newly announced 59A
(West Miflin - Monroeville) connecting bus traverse sweeping arcs to the south
and east of Pittsburgh.
Bill Waller
>In article <379eaab3...@nntp.adelphia.net>,
>Bill Waller <wsw...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>Although the Authority made overtures toward renovating the section during it
>>Rail21 project, it seemed likely that any work on the line could not be
>>justified due to the total lack of ridership. This is not to say that the line
>>was operated in a manner which would be attractive to riders in general.
>
>A couple of years ago when I was visiting friends and relatives in Ohio,
>my wife and I drove down to Pittsburgh for some sightseeing. I
>specifically wanted to see the Drake line, so we drove to the end of the
>line and found things basically unchanged from what I remembered from a
>previous visit in the early 1970s: a simple concrete shelter and a small
>unpaved parking area overhung with trees and shrubbery. There were *no*
>cars parked there at all (even though it was late on a weekday morning),
>which made my wife nervous about leaving our car there, and which made me
>wonder whether the line was in service at all that day! We decided to
>head for South Hills Village (terminal of the 42S light rail line)
>instead; and as we pulled out of the "parking lot" at Drake, a PCC pulled
>in, and then left almost immediately. So the line was running after all,
>but I knew that the cars ran only every 40 minutes or so, so I wasn't
>encouraged to stick around for the next one.
>
Your car probably would have been absolutely safe. Whether or not you would
have gotten back to it is another story. There is usually one PCC in service
and another in the shop awaiting some kind of repair from the last breakdown.
If the one in service breaks down (and they do), the likelihood of the backup
car being operable is always questionable. Shuttle bus replacements are not
called in until they are absolutely sure that neither car can be put out in a
reasonable time. "Reasonable time" could mean the next day.
>>There were rumblings of upgrading the trackage to LRT standards, whatever those
>>are, but the advent of the STV sealed the death of the line.
>
>What's the STV?
Please see my response to Ron Newman in this thread.
>
>>Operationally,
>>this is the only thing that the authority could do. The PCC cars are in
>>terrible shape and the cars that were used for spares have been scrapped. The
>>present LRVs will not fit on the line and the present final terminus (Drake
>>Loop) is such that the LRVs cannot even use the approach track.
>
>The Port Authority Transit web site (http://trfn.clpgh.org/patransit/) has
>a "Capital Improvements" page (dated 5/99) which describes a planned
>upgrade to the Drake line, with a new park-and-ride facility, "contingent
>upon future funding availability." Heh.
Bill Waller, Bethel Park, PA
Timmins
seen them on the streets down there, and we in Warren County ,PA...(2 1/2
Hours north) have two of them in the garage waiting to be put in
service......
Bill
Bill Waller
I would assume that they are happy with the vehicles. I don't know how many
were on the original order for the 28X, but they add 80 to the fleet this year.
Bill Waller
taken along the Drake line on alt.pictures.binaries.rail. The current group was
taken on July 31, 1999.
As a side note, the Port Authority is holding some kind of event on Aug. 30 at
the Castle Shannon station to commemorate the passing of the Drake line.
Joe Versaggi
>
> For anyone interested, I have been and still am posting a series of pictures
> taken along the Drake line on alt.pictures.binaries.rail. The current group was
> taken on July 31, 1999.
>
> As a side note, the Port Authority is holding some kind of event on Aug. 30 at
> the Castle Shannon station to commemorate the passing of the Drake line.
> Bill Waller, Bethel Park, PA
What is the latest on the re-opening of the Overbrook Line ?
Bill Waller
On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:51:50 GMT, wsw...@adelphia.net (Bill Waller) wrote:
>For anyone interested, I have been and still am posting a series of pictures
>taken along the Drake line on alt.binaries.pictures.rail. The current group was
>taken on July 31, 1999.
>
>As a side note, the Port Authority is holding some kind of event on Aug. 30 at
>the Castle Shannon station to commemorate the passing of the Drake line.
Bill Waller, Bethel Park, PA
Bill Waller
wrote:
>What is the latest on the re-opening of the Overbrook Line ?
According to the Port Authority's Rail21 Fact Sheet, construction starts in
1999. (Latest I have is the they will begin work this Winter).
The line is due to be open sometime in 2004.
Funding has been secured for this portion of the project. Funding for the
Library line and the Drake line has not been secured. They are still saying
that the Drake line will be re-opened after it is rebuilt to light rail
standards. I will be curious to see what they do to preserve the integrity of
the line after the 47D goes out of service.
Joe Versaggi
>
> On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:50:02 -0400, Joe Versaggi <JOEM...@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>
> >What is the latest on the re-opening of the Overbrook Line ?
>
> According to the Port Authority's Rail21 Fact Sheet, construction starts in
> 1999. (Latest I have is the they will begin work this Winter).
> The line is due to be open sometime in 2004.
>
> Funding has been secured for this portion of the project. Funding for the
> Library line and the Drake line has not been secured. They are still saying
> that the Drake line will be re-opened after it is rebuilt to light rail
> standards. I will be curious to see what they do to preserve the integrity of
> the line after the 47D goes out of service.
> Bill Waller, Bethel Park, PA
So, once Drake shuts down, the trolley network will be the tiniest ever.
Any plans to extend onto the East busway or go north ?
Bill Waller
wrote:
>So, once Drake shuts down, the trolley network will be the tiniest ever.
>Any plans to extend onto the East busway or go north ?
There are plans to extend the East Busway.
There are plans to cross the Allegheny River (perhaps as an extension of the
present LRT system). The debate is whether to go over or under the river.
There are plans to continue with the construction of the West Busway.
Bill Waller, Bethel Park, PA
Joe Versaggi
>
> On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 17:16:58 -0400, Joe Versaggi <JOEM...@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>
> >So, once Drake shuts down, the trolley network will be the tiniest ever.
> >Any plans to extend onto the East busway or go north ?
>
> There are plans to extend the East Busway.
I mean extend LRT onto the East Busway ?
Bill Waller
wrote:
>> There are plans to extend the East Busway.
>
>I mean extend LRT onto the East Busway ?
The proposed plans for the "North Shore Connector" will preclude any extension
of light rail on or along the East Busway. The Penn Park station will, most
likely, be closed regardless of which of the two proposals they finally go
with.
Joe Versaggi
>
> On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 18:32:51 -0400, Joe Versaggi <JOEM...@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>
> >> There are plans to extend the East Busway.
> >
> >I mean extend LRT onto the East Busway ?
> The proposed plans for the "North Shore Connector" will preclude any extension
> of light rail on or along the East Busway. The Penn Park station will, most
> likely, be closed regardless of which of the two proposals they finally go
> with.
> Bill Waller, Bethel Park, PA
Then why did they build it ?
Bill Waller
wrote:
>> >I mean extend LRT onto the East Busway ?
>> The proposed plans for the "North Shore Connector" will preclude any extension
>> of light rail on or along the East Busway. The Penn Park station will, most
>> likely, be closed regardless of which of the two proposals they finally go
>> with.
>> Bill Waller, Bethel Park, PA
>
>Then why did they build it ?
That is the $4,000,000 question. Even as it is today, there are only two LRVs
that serve it, both inbound to Steel Plaza only and both in the afternoon.
The original intend, iI think, was to have passengers arriving from the eastern
parts of the city and beyond, transfer at Penn Park and use the subway section
of the system to achieve their downtown destinations. This would have
eliminated many buses from Pittsburgh's congested downtown area. This did not
happen. If you ask anybody about it, they shrug and attribute the situation to
politics.
The irony is that the station was revamped (2 years ago, if memory serves) to
better comply with ADA platform standards, along with the other high level
stations on the line. It was a funded "all or none" project.
The North Shore Connector Project that will force the closure of the station
will create new alignments, regardless of which of the two plans they choose.
Plan A, the extension from Gateway Center (under the river) includes an
extension of the spur out of Steel Plaza toward Penn Park, but would make a
sharp left before the station underground to service the convention center.
Plan B would extend and expand (double track) the spur from Steel Plaza with a
station for the convention center and then would continue to the North Shore on
a new bridge paralleling the Fort Wayne bridge. The idea of using the lower
deck of the Fort Wayne was dismissed as being too expensive and the idea of
sharing the structure with Norfolk Southern and Amtrak, albeit on a separate
level, did not appeal to the Authority.
Both plans have the ability to be extended into the Northside as well as along
the north bank of the Ohio River at some time in th future.
Bill Waller, Bethel Park, PA
Jon Bell
Bill Waller <wsw...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 08:21:38 -0400, Joe Versaggi <JOEM...@worldnet.att.net>
>wrote:
>
>>> The proposed plans for the "North Shore Connector" will preclude any
>>> extension of light rail on or along the East Busway. The Penn Park
>>> station will, most likely, be closed regardless of which of the two
>>> proposals they finally go with.
>>
>
>parts of the city and beyond, transfer at Penn Park and use the subway section
>of the system to achieve their downtown destinations.
That's what I remember, too. On paper, it makes sense. But in practice,
someone arriving on the busway and wanting to go to, say, the Gateway
Center area, would have to transfer *twice*: from the bus to a train at
Penn Plaza, and then to another train at Steel Plaza. The track
connection at Steel Plaza is like a "Y", and trains can't run directly
between Penn Plaza and Gateway Center.
Joe Versaggi
having cars from Penn Station proceed onto the Gateway bound track and
loop back, crossing over itself on the return to Penn Station at Steel
Plaza. Can it be retrofitted this way without spending a billion dollars
?
Bill Waller
wrote:
Operationally, it would be possible with the present track geometry. The
inbound from Penn Park would pass by Steel Plaza on track 3 and continue on to
the pocket track outside the entrance to the subway tunnel. There, the operator
would have to change ends and the car could then re-enter the tunnel on track
2. Possible, yes, practical, no.
Steel Plaza, although currently exposed to the air is surrounded by several,
relatively new, high rise office Buildings. Reconfiguration of the station
would not be possible. Additionally, the area of the pocket track is destined
to become the site of a new station serving First Ave. and the PNC Bank
Operations Center which is currently under construction.
Bob Johnson
http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/19990830close2.asp
Bob Johnson
Ron Newman
says...
>
>The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette has a story about the trolleys today:
>
>http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/19990830close2.asp
The article incorrectly states that the "Newark, N.J., City Subway is [being]
phased out next year". Actually, only the use of PCCs on that line is
being phased out; they are being replaced by newer LRVs.