Washington's Plan to Bulldoze Useless Cities
Sancho Panza
Dozens of US cities may have entire neighbourhoods bulldozed as part of
drastic "shrink to survive" proposals being considered by the Obama
administration to tackle economic decline.
By Tom Leonard in Flint, Michigan
Published: 6:30PM BST 12 Jun 2009
Hope springs at signs of life in US housing market: a boarded up house sits
for sale in Detroit, Michigan.
A boarded up house sits for sale in Michigan. Photo: GETTY
The government looking at expanding a pioneering scheme in Flint, one of the
poorest US cities, which involves razing entire districts and returning the
land to nature.
Local politicians believe the city must contract by as much as 40 per cent,
concentrating the dwindling population and local services into a more viable
area. The radical experiment is the brainchild of Dan Kildee, treasurer of
Genesee County, which includes Flint.
Having outlined his strategy to Barack Obama during the election campaign,
Mr Kildee has now been approached by the US government and a group of
charities who want him to apply what he has learnt to the rest of the
country.Mr Kildee said he will concentrate on 50 cities, identified in a
recent study by the Brookings Institution, an influential Washington
think-tank, as potentially needing to shrink substantially to cope with
their declining fortunes.
Most are former industrial cities in the "rust belt" of America's Mid-West
and North East. They include Detroit, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Baltimore
and Memphis.In Detroit, shattered by the woes of the US car industry, there
are already plans to split it into a collection of small urban centres
separated from each other by countryside.
"The real question is not whether these cities shrink - we're all
shrinking - but whether we let it happen in a destructive or sustainable
way," said Mr Kildee. "Decline is a fact of life in Flint. Resisting it is
like resisting gravity."
Karina Pallagst, director of the Shrinking Cities in a Global Perspective
programme at the University of California, Berkeley, said there was "both a
cultural and political taboo" about admitting decline in America.
"Places like Flint have hit rock bottom. They're at the point where it's
better to start knocking a lot of buildings down," she said.
Flint, sixty miles north of Detroit, was the original home of General
Motors. The car giant once employed 79,000 local people but that figure has
shrunk to around 8,000. Unemployment is now approaching 20 per cent and the
total population has almost halved to 110,000. The exodus - particularly of
young people - coupled with the consequent collapse in property prices, has
left street after street in sections of the city almost entirely abandoned.
In the city centre, the once grand Durant Hotel - named after William
Durant, GM's founder - is a symbol of the city's decline, said Mr Kildee.
The large building has been empty since 1973, roughly when Flint's decline
began.
Regarded as a model city in the motor industry's boom years, Flint may once
again be emulated, though for very different reasons.But Mr Kildee, who has
lived there nearly all his life, said he had first to overcome a deeply
ingrained American cultural mindset that "big is good" and that cities
should sprawl - Flint covers 34 square miles.
He said: "The obsession with growth is sadly a very American thing. Across
the US, there's an assumption that all development is good, that if
communities are growing they are successful. If they're shrinking, they're
failing."
But some Flint dustcarts are collecting just one rubbish bag a week, roads
are decaying, police are very understaffed and there were simply too few
people to pay for services, he said. If the city didn't downsize it will
eventually go bankrupt, he added. Flint's recovery efforts have been helped
by a new state law passed a few years ago which allowed local governments to
buy up empty properties very cheaply.They could then knock them down or sell
them on to owners who will occupy them. The city wants to specialise in
health and education services, both areas which cannot easily be relocated
abroad.
The local authority has restored the city's attractive but formerly deserted
centre but has pulled down 1,100 abandoned homes in outlying areas.Mr Kildee
estimated another 3,000 needed to be demolished, although the city
boundaries will remain the same.Already, some streets peter out into woods
or meadows, no trace remaining of the homes that once stood there.
Choosing which areas to knock down will be delicate but many of them were
already obvious, he said.The city is buying up houses in more affluent areas
to offer people in neighbourhoods it wants to demolish. Nobody will be
forced to move, said Mr Kildee.
"Much of the land will be given back to nature. People will enjoy living
near a forest or meadow," he said.
Mr Kildee acknowledged that some fellow Americans considered his solution
"defeatist" but he insisted it was "no more defeatist than pruning an
overgrown tree so it can bear fruit again".
George Conklin
"Sancho Panza" <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a32fa2d$0$5907$607e...@cv.net...
No one has figured out how to shrink a city when the economic base goes
away.
Anonymous
<n...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> No one has figured out how to shrink a city when the economic base goes
>away.
No? There are ghost towns throught the west. The same will happen in
the rust belt.
George Conklin
"Anonymous" <no-...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:1o59351eh8jl5e0se...@4ax.com...
I was not thinking of abandonment, but rather how a city gets smaller when
the economic base shrinks. For example, banks consider commercial real
estate good for 30 years and homes for about 60. Anything older than that
is fully depreciated and thus can be done away with more easily than new
construction.
gl4...@yahoo.com
<otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote:
> Local politicians believe the city must contract by as much as 40 per cent,
> concentrating the dwindling population and local services into a more viable
> area. The radical experiment is the brainchild of Dan Kildee, treasurer of
> Genesee County, which includes Flint.
Any chance they could figure out how to attract people away from other
areas? The city where I live can't expand its services under the current
conditions to serve the huge growth that is happening. We need to figure
out a way of making people go somewhere else.
--
-Glennl
Please note this e-mail address is a pit of spam, and most e-mail sent to this address are simply lost in the vast mess.
george conklin
<gl4...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:gl4317-1906...@69-30-11-40.pxd.easystreet.com...
> In article <4a32fa2d$0$5907$607e...@cv.net>, "Sancho Panza"
> <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Local politicians believe the city must contract by as much as 40 per
>> cent,
>> concentrating the dwindling population and local services into a more
>> viable
>> area. The radical experiment is the brainchild of Dan Kildee, treasurer
>> of
>> Genesee County, which includes Flint.
>
>
> Any chance they could figure out how to attract people away from other
> areas? The city where I live can't expand its services under the current
> conditions to serve the huge growth that is happening. We need to figure
> out a way of making people go somewhere else.
There is no czar of housing in the USA.
DevilsPGD
>Any chance they could figure out how to attract people away from other
>areas? The city where I live can't expand its services under the current
>conditions to serve the huge growth that is happening. We need to figure
>out a way of making people go somewhere else.
Raise taxes to either fund the growth, or stunt it.
george conklin
"DevilsPGD" <Death...@crazyhat.net> wrote in message
news:d8nt35hqs92gjlem5...@4ax.com...
Sure....just make people move back to those 50% of counties that are LOSING
population in the USA. No jobs? No problem...stunt them. Are you
volunteering to move to remote locations so you can achieve your dreams?
DevilsPGD
My original point is that growth scales well, when you have growth
exceeding your city budget's ability to expand infrastructure to meet
the needs of the new growth, you raise taxes which either covers your
costs or slows growth to a manageable level.
Those that are living and working using gov't services, and using
infrastructure are benefiting from the growth, and therefore should be
paying for it. This is municipal economics 101.
As far as whether I'm volunteering, I'm way ahead of you. A few months
ago I moved from a city that was growing unsustainably (and is now
feeling some of the effects as a result) to a relatively remote location
in a city less then 1/10th the size largely because I don't like the
direction the old city was going.
You obviously need to consider the job market before moving, but if you
only move once you have accepted an offer, things work out a lot better
then if you move somewhere randomly then discover there are no jobs.
Martin Edwards
I visited Lafayette three years ago and it was a big disappointment. In
the UK we are used to seeing New York on tv and it does seem somewhat
European in atmosphere, eg the streets are always busy. Lafayette was
just a collection of buildings. The bus routes were inadequate, though
the staff were unflaggingly efficient and cheerful, and nowhere ever
seemed busy. The only greyhound route was along I10, so you could not
get into the bayou country without a car. A huge mall a long way from
the city centre had a few people moving about inside it, and the
restuarant nearest to my motel was not open on Sunday. Is it like that
everwhere?
Miles Bader
> I visited Lafayette three years ago and it was a big disappointment.
> In the UK we are used to seeing New York on tv and it does seem
> somewhat European in atmosphere, eg the streets are always busy.
> Lafayette was just a collection of buildings. The bus routes were
> inadequate, though the staff were unflaggingly efficient and cheerful,
> and nowhere ever seemed busy. The only greyhound route was along I10,
> so you could not get into the bayou country without a car. A huge
> mall a long way from the city centre had a few people moving about
> inside it, and the restuarant nearest to my motel was not open on
Basically.
There are a few outposts of relative civilization here and there, but
you'd best make sure before you book your tickets...
[Though I'm a city person, what's perhaps even more disappointing is
that 90% of rural/suburban/small-city America is not even nice in a
laid-back low-key way -- these places tend to just be depressing. I've
found that similar areas in Europe (or say, Japan) are _much_ more
likely to be at least clean/pleasant/safe with some interesting and
quirky bits...]
-Miles
--
Politeness, n. The most acceptable hypocrisy.
george conklin
"Miles Bader" <mi...@gnu.org> wrote in message
news:buor5xb...@dhlpc061.dev.necel.com...
The fact that the majority of American love where they live makes you
seem like what you are: simply a discontent who hates happy people.
Miles Bader
> The fact that the majority of American love where they live makes you
> seem like what you are: simply a discontent who hates happy people.
Ah, that must be it.
-Miles
--
Immortality, n. A toy which people cry for, And on their knees apply for,
Dispute, contend and lie for, And if allowed Would be right proud
Eternally to die for.
PatM
For once, George is pretty close to right.
I live in a rural area. One HUGE element is the tourism industry. If
nobody liked coming here and everyone found this area to be
depressing, how come they are paying to come here for vacation?
Miles Bader
> For once, George is pretty close to right.
George is never right.
> I live in a rural area. One HUGE element is the tourism industry. If
> nobody liked coming here and everyone found this area to be
> depressing, how come they are paying to come here for vacation?
It sucks less than where they live?
-Miles
--
Selfish, adj. Devoid of consideration for the selfishness of others.
Martin Edwards
Martin Edwards
commentator said, neither town nor country. If the denizens are happy,
I'm happy for them, only I'm not going to spend five hours on a plane to
go there.
PatM
Did you ever think that you didn't like the urban/rural/suburban
places you've been because YOU were there? Maybe people are moving to
places like that to get away from you and your ilk.
We are rural and have golfing, ski slopes, nice boutiques, a casino
and a very nice quality of life. Plus taxes are low and there's very
little crime. People from Ohio, Pennsylvania, Toronto, and Buffalo
flock to this area for vacations. There must be something they are
coming here for. And there must be some reason they are living where
they are living -- not all of them in a urban area that you call home.
Miles Bader
> Did you ever think that you didn't like the urban/rural/suburban
> places you've been because YOU were there?
(Eh? What on earth does that even _mean_?)
> Maybe people are moving to places like that to get away from you and
> your ilk.
Hmmm, my ilk. The "Ilk that hates happy people."
I like it!
-miles
--
Friendship, n. A ship big enough to carry two in fair weather, but only one
in foul.
Miles Bader
> Did you ever think that you didn't like the urban/rural/suburban
> places you've been because YOU were there?
(Eh? What on earth does that even _mean_?)
> Maybe people are moving to places like that to get away from you and
> your ilk.
Hmmm, my ilk. The "Ilk that hates happy people."
Peter Schleifer
<gro...@artisticphotography.us> wrote:
>On Jun 23, 7:16�am, Miles Bader <mi...@gnu.org> wrote:
>> "george conklin" <nos...@nospam.com> writes:
>> > � � �The fact that the majority of American love where they live makes you
>> > seem like what you are: simply a discontent who hates happy people.
>>
>> Ah, that must be it.
>>
>> -Miles
>For once, George is pretty close to right.
>
>I live in a rural area. One HUGE element is the tourism industry. If
>nobody liked coming here and everyone found this area to be
>depressing, how come they are paying to come here for vacation?
Funny, the tourism industry is huge in a lot of cities, especially New
York. I'll bet NYC gets a lot more tourists than your area.
Also, I don't know about what you do on vacation, but I generally want
to get to a place that offers something different from where I live.
Otherwise I might as well save some money and stay at home.
--
Peter Schleifer
"Save me from the people who would save me from myself"
PatM
I do stay at home cuz there's no place I'd rather be -- especially a
city.
George Conklin
"PatM" <gro...@artisticphotography.us> wrote in message
news:0b79c732-f836-498c...@f10g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
---
Notice he does the usual: If it is not like Europe, it is no good.
Ian Perry
else... However, when peak oil hits, will those in the countryside or
those in the urban areas be greatest hit? In the countryside you may
have food, but be stuck and lose their income from the tourist
industry, in urban areas you will still be able to move around the
urban area and trade, but will there be enough food...
Cities and towns in Europe vary greatly, some are unpleasant and some
are great and some can supply their citizens with food, but most can't.
Brian R.
> US cities may have to be bulldozed in order to survive
> Dozens of US cities may have entire neighbourhoods bulldozed as part of
> drastic "shrink to survive" proposals being considered by the Obama
> administration to tackle economic decline.
>
> By Tom Leonard in Flint, Michigan
> Published: 6:30PM BST 12 Jun 2009
> Hope springs at signs of life in US housing market: a boarded up house sits
> for sale in Detroit, Michigan.
> A boarded up house sits for sale in Michigan. Photo: GETTY
>
> The government looking at expanding a pioneering scheme in Flint, one of the
> poorest US cities, which involves razing entire districts and returning the
> land to nature.
Well, that's... extremely disturbing.
Looks like the critics of Austin Goolsbee ("we don't REALLY want to
revive manufacturing cities, that's all just campaign talk") were
entirely right.
Looks like the "progressive urban planning" movement has completely
jumped the shark. The "progressive urban" movement is utterly consumed
with increasing property values near transit and bringing in chain
stores, to the point of actively PLANNING for the loss of population
in transit corridors due to gentrification and "high rise condo"
redevelopment, as predicted by Jane Jacobs.
I know my local council of progressive "inner city" churches, who are
the only people who still even TALK about affordable housing, is
affiliated with an ACORN-like group known as Industrial Areas
Foundation, which lo and behold, supports large-scale 50's style urban
renewal like what they are doing in the oldest part of Baltimore,
along the Penn line. Check out their mission statement:
http://www.industrialareasfoundation.org/iafaction/iafactionblight.htm
>>
Blight removal and reconstruction
The lessons of the Nehemiah experience in New York have led IAF
affiliates to push for the large-scale removal of blight and
reconstruction of intensely devastated sections of Philadelphia,
Baltimore and Washington. IAF pressure led to the passage of a $295
million blight removal bond issue in Philadelphia and a $100 million
dollar bond issue in Washington. A similar anti-blight bond issue is
now being considered in Baltimore. The systematic removal of blight,
preparation of large sites, and reduction of bureaucratic obstacles is
seen by IAF affiliates as the only way to attract major development of
all kinds back to the shrinking cities of the northeast and Midwest
and to combat suburban sprawl in an effective and practical manner.
>>
Note: Nehemiah homes are an effort to create for-profit "affordable
housing" fiefdoms administered by nonprofit churches. They level
rental housing to build gated garage-townhouse complexes in the inner
city.
So this is what the progressive movement has come to...
George Conklin
"Brian R." <wr...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:5464b5ac-bf80-48b8...@u16g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
Progressive politics favor putting the European approach to cities. That
is, you put any poor people in the suburbs and keep the center city for the
well-to-do. How is that surprising? Already Brookings has reported that
today more poor people live in the suburbs than in the city. Manufacturing
can never afford the high prices of center cities.
PatM
I haven't read this NG is a while. I just read your post and now I
remember why. What the heck are you talking about -- no food in
cities and no transit is rural areas.
First off, VERY few people in rural areas are involved in agriculture
and fewer yet raise their own meat. Potatos grow well around here but
our climate isn't suited for Italian foods such as spaghetti.
Second off, high oil prices are not the end of the world. They just
cause substitution.
Finally, we will NEVER run out of oil. George probably understands
that but I bet it goes right over your head. In 100 years, there will
still be oil in the ground and somebody, somewhere might even still be
pumping it. We will NEVER run out because at some point it just gets
too expensive to pump and substitutes become cheaper and better
alternatives. When that happens, people will decide to stop drilling/
pumping because it is too expensive and there's no profit there.
Oil does not make the world turn. Profit does.
So go live in your city. I don't care. In fact, I like it when
people live in cities because they leave me alone.
As for the tourist industry. It'll always be there. It might change,
but it'll always be there. Maybe the best example of it is in the
movie "Total Recall".
George Conklin
---
City transit does not save fuel anyway. So high oil prices will hit
cities first as higher food prices but finally as transit costs go up, up
and up. If transit uses electricty, then so can rural automobiles but then
we have the issue of coal polluction. If nuclear, then no air pollution,
but you have a 1 million year waste issue. Rural areas can use electric
cars just as urban areas do. After all, few rural residents travel 40 miles
or more to work either.
1100GS_rider
> Potatos grow well around here but
> our climate isn't suited for Italian foods such as spaghetti.
Spaghetti plants are very delicate!
Anonymous
<n...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>I haven't read this NG is a while. I just read your post and now I
>remember why...
You took the words right out of my mouth.
rail
bmw1...@hotmail.com (1100GS_rider) wrote:
They have to be harvested in early April and are vulnerable to frost.
--
Graeme Wall
This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at <www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>
Jym Dyer
> Progressive politics favor putting the European approach to
> cities. That is, you put any poor people in the suburbs and
> keep the center city for the well-to-do.
=v= The term "progressive" is kind of open-ended, and with good
reason, but in this case it leaves it unclear what it is you're
talking about. Even so, I know of no progressive politics that
favors gentrification.
=v= The word "European" in your writing has similar problems.
Land-use patterns in Europe do not match your description, and
those who wish to adopt certain elements of those patterns are
not doing so to segregate the population by income.
> Already Brookings has reported that today more poor people
> live in the suburbs than in the city.
=v= Yes, though I have already explained this very recently in
a followup to you in other newsgroups:
news:Jym.24Jul20...@econet.org
(a.k.a.)
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Jym.24Jul2009.4a6a1aea%40econet.org
Executive summary: The causes of this demographic shift are
not what you keep unsupportedly alleging that they are. They
have nothing to do with your concocted "progressive politics"
nor your bizarre imaginings of "European" land use.
<_Jym_>
George Conklin
"rail" <ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:396eb8450%ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk...
> In message <1j3u377.7xa9q414pvl6oN%bmw1...@hotmail.com>
> bmw1...@hotmail.com (1100GS_rider) wrote:
>
> > PatM <gro...@artisticphotography.us> wrote:
> >
> > > Potatos grow well around here but
> > > our climate isn't suited for Italian foods such as spaghetti.
> >
> > Spaghetti plants are very delicate!
>
> They have to be harvested in early April and are vulnerable to frost.
>
That means they cannot be harvested in April. They must be brought in,
for sure, before October 15.
George Conklin
"Jym Dyer" <j...@econet.org> wrote in message
news:Jym.03Aug20...@econet.org...
You are the one who wants to bullzoze cities. I simply want cities to
appeal to all classes of people. And yes, the European pattern of putting
the poor in the suburbs is so well-known you cannot deny it.
Jym Dyer
> You are the one who wants to bullzoze cities.
=v= I do? News to me. Can you provide a shred of support
for this claim (or any of them)?
<_Jym_>
George Conklin
You doctored the headline here, not me.
bob
> "rail" <r...@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:396eb8450%ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk...
>
> > In message <1j3u377.7xa9q414pvl6oN%bmw110...@hotmail.com>
> > bmw110...@hotmail.com (1100GS_rider) wrote:
>
> > > PatM <gro...@artisticphotography.us> wrote:
>
> > > > Potatos grow well around here but
> > > > our climate isn't suited for Italian foods such as spaghetti.
>
> > > Spaghetti plants are very delicate!
>
> > They have to be harvested in early April and are vulnerable to frost.
>
> That means they cannot be harvested in April. They must be brought in,
> for sure, before October 15.
I visitted Ticino just the other week, where the groves of majestic
spaghetti trees grow on the shores of Lake Lugano. The trees are
certainly capable of withstanding the frost, but a late frost is
devastating to the crop, which ripens in the springtime, and
traditionally is harvested in early April, but because of global
warming can now be harvested as early as the second week in March.
The unusually large snowfall this winter meant that the crop was less
than the famous bumper harvest of 1957, but the later flowering that
the weather brought meant the spaghetti ripenned in warmer than usual
weather, leading to a plumper and more richly flavoured pasta.
I understand that in the more intensively farmed regions in the Po
valley in Italy, they now grow the trees in climate controlled glass
houses so that they can get a second crop each year, in the autumn,
but in Switzerland, the crop is grown traditionally, for the organic
market. I understand that, with the end of the use of chemical
pesticides, the spaghetti weevil has made something of a comeback, but
the higher prices and perceived better quality of the organic product
make up for the reduced yield.
Robin
PatM
If global warming is impacting the spaghetti crop, it doesn't spell
total disaster. It just means that things will change. For example,
spaghetti farms might have to move farther north or into the
mountains. Maybe "mountain grown" will become the new boutique
spaghetti crop. Meanwhile, maybe farmers in Germany can position
themselves to become spaghetti powerhouses and take over the industry
from the Italians. Then the Italian farmers can grow new, tropical
crops such as the lucrative Mojito nut.
PatM
FWIW, didn't "ghetto" start as a European term.
George Conklin
The term for suburb in French means "false city."
El Fego Vaca
<psch...@speakeasy.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:59:40 -0700 (PDT), PatM
> <gro...@artisticphotography.us> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 23, 7:16 am, Miles Bader <mi...@gnu.org> wrote:
>>> "george conklin" <nos...@nospam.com> writes:
>>> > The fact that the majority of American love where they live
>>> makes you
>>> > seem like what you are: simply a discontent who hates happy people.
>>>
>>> Ah, that must be it.
>>>
>>> -Miles
>
>> For once, George is pretty close to right.
>>
>> I live in a rural area. One HUGE element is the tourism industry. If
>> nobody liked coming here and everyone found this area to be
>> depressing, how come they are paying to come here for vacation?
>
> Funny, the tourism industry is huge in a lot of cities, especially New
> York. I'll bet NYC gets a lot more tourists than your area.
>
The American population has always had a streak of psychotic cruelty to
it. They love to roll in other peoples filth and degradation, to soak in
others anguish and despondency. Like the exemplary ex-president Clinton,
they love to "feel your pain". It's called "slumming it". New York has
made it there primary industry.
> Also, I don't know about what you do on vacation, but I generally want
> to get to a place that offers something different from where I live.
> Otherwise I might as well save some money and stay at home.
>
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Martin Edwards
with beggars. Presumably they think that if these people worked harder
they could get good jobs like them.
--
As through this world I've rambled, I've met plenty of funny men,
Some rob you with a sixgun, some with a fountain pen.
Woody Guthrie
Miles Bader
> I noticed this in the Naples area, where Americans are very hard nosed
> with beggars. Presumably they think that if these people worked harder
> they could get good jobs like them.
What, you managed to discern a coherent thought amongst all the drool?!
[I have noticed that the behavior of beggars seems to be dramatically
different in different cities, and I imagine many people tend to come
with a variety of preconceptions because of this.]
-miles
--
Liberty, n. One of imagination's most precious possessions.
George Conklin
"El Fego Vaca" <elfeg...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:op.u1cn2mcsvgb0zk@localhost...
> On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 05:23:13 -0700, Peter Schleifer
> <psch...@speakeasy.org> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:59:40 -0700 (PDT), PatM
> > <gro...@artisticphotography.us> wrote:
> >
> >> On Jun 23, 7:16 am, Miles Bader <mi...@gnu.org> wrote:
> >>> "george conklin" <nos...@nospam.com> writes:
> >>> > The fact that the majority of American love where they live
> >>> makes you
> >>> > seem like what you are: simply a discontent who hates happy people.
> >>>
> >>> Ah, that must be it.
> >>>
> >>> -Miles
> >
> >> For once, George is pretty close to right.
> >>
> >> I live in a rural area. One HUGE element is the tourism industry. If
> >> nobody liked coming here and everyone found this area to be
> >> depressing, how come they are paying to come here for vacation?
> >
> > Funny, the tourism industry is huge in a lot of cities, especially New
> > York. I'll bet NYC gets a lot more tourists than your area.
> >
> The American population has always had a streak of psychotic cruelty to
> it. They love to roll in other peoples filth and degradation, to soak in
> others anguish and despondency. Like the exemplary ex-president Clinton,
> they love to "feel your pain".
The libertarians are back it again.....
Martin Edwards
> Martin Edwards <big_m...@Yahoo.com> writes:
>> I noticed this in the Naples area, where Americans are very hard nosed
>> with beggars. Presumably they think that if these people worked harder
>> they could get good jobs like them.
>
> What, you managed to discern a coherent thought amongst all the drool?!
>
> [I have noticed that the behavior of beggars seems to be dramatically
> different in different cities, and I imagine many people tend to come
> with a variety of preconceptions because of this.]
>
> -miles
>
the train from St Agatha to Sorrento who plays a mean version of "Moscow
Nights"
Martin Edwards
convoluted minds.
Miles Bader
>> [I have noticed that the behavior of beggars seems to be dramatically
>> different in different cities, and I imagine many people tend to come
>> with a variety of preconceptions because of this.]
>
> the train from St Agatha to Sorrento who plays a mean version of
> "Moscow Nights"
For instance, there's a palpable difference between beggars in NYC and
Boston, where I got the impression of beggars as being often creative
(musical performance, 25 cents to guide you through the station, etc)
and friendly, and Seattle, where beggars typically seem aggressive and
rather nasty. The latter sort simply piss people off.
-Miles
--
Mad, adj. Affected with a high degree of intellectual independence; not
conforming to standards of thought, speech, and action derived by the
conformants [sic] from study of themselves; at odds with the majority; in
short, unusual. It is noteworthy that persons are pronounced mad by officials
destitute of evidence that they themselves are sane.
Martin Edwards
> Martin Edwards <big_m...@Yahoo.com> writes:
>>> [I have noticed that the behavior of beggars seems to be dramatically
>>> different in different cities, and I imagine many people tend to come
>>> with a variety of preconceptions because of this.]
>> I guess. Some of them are performers, such as the alto sax player on
>> the train from St Agatha to Sorrento who plays a mean version of
>> "Moscow Nights"
>
> For instance, there's a palpable difference between beggars in NYC and
> Boston, where I got the impression of beggars as being often creative
> (musical performance, 25 cents to guide you through the station, etc)
> and friendly, and Seattle, where beggars typically seem aggressive and
> rather nasty. The latter sort simply piss people off.
>
> -Miles
>
George Conklin
"Martin Edwards" <big_m...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kH0zm.23945$mo7....@newsfe28.ams2...
I like Woody Guthrie.