Vancouver's Skytrain
Geoff Howes
know if there are any other cities in the world that use Skytrain or
Skytrain-like technology and concepts. There is a lot of debate in Vancouver
about this spectacular, but also spectacularly expensive, choice of urban
transit solutions. I don't think I've ever heard of any other city choosing
to go this route, can anybody provide any insight into this for me?
I really like Skytrain because of its "cool" factor, but I often wonder just
how practical it is.
Thanks
Geoff
James Robinson
>
> I'm curious to know if there are any other cities in the world
> that use Skytrain or Skytrain-like technology and concepts.
Toronto and Detroit have the same technology. London, England has
similar technology. I believe there is an Asian city as well - Taipei,
Singapore, or Bangkok?
Christopher Rivituso
CR
"Geoff Howes" <em...@email.com> wrote in message
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jptriad
"Geoff Howes" <em...@email.com> wrote in message
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mary
the people mover which I think was orginally referred to as "skybus." I have
rode it, and it is rather noisy.
Tom
Robin Payne
curious to
> > know if there are any other cities in the world that use Skytrain or
> > Skytrain-like technology and concepts. There is a lot of debate in
> Vancouver
> > about this spectacular, but also spectacularly expensive, choice of
urban
> > transit solutions. I don't think I've ever heard of any other city
> choosing
> > to go this route, can anybody provide any insight into this for me?
> >
> > I really like Skytrain because of its "cool" factor, but I often
wonder
> just
> > how practical it is.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Geoff
>
I don't know where this idea came from, but the Docklands Light Railway
is not any more like Skytrain than the Victoria or Central lines of the
London Underground. The significant feature of Skytrain is its use of
linear induction motors which theoretically mean there are fewer moving
parts than a conventional train, so less to maintain or go wrong. The
Docklands Light Railway (most people these days, including the
opperators of the railway refer to it as the DLR, especially since
recent extensions have gone outside of what was traditionally the
Docklands) uses conventional DC brush and commutator motors (at least on
the early builds of cars), powering the cars through the wheels. The
only similarity between Skytrain and the DLR is the fact that they are
driven by computer, but on the DLR, trains carry a member of staff who
oversees the computer's opperation, is there for safety reasons, and
gives the "right away" at stations. In this respect, he serves the same
function as the train opperator on the Victoria and Central lines of the
London Underground.
I would be interested to know whether the cost difference between
Skytrain cars and those for more conventional urban railway is real or
perceived. Does anybody have figures comparing the costs of the
Skytrain cars with cars of similar capacity and performance for more
conventional urban railways?
Robin
Christopher Rivituso
think that it is a people-mover.
CR
"mary" <tomb...@city-net.com> wrote in message
news:3c931ed9$0$249$4d5e...@reader.city-net.com...
ERIKG3
Morgantown is a Boeing built PRT "on-demand" system.
The "SkyBus" was a (driver-operated during the demo) rubber-tired system
developed by Westinghouse for Pittburgh's transit system. Interestingly the
Pittsburgh demo failed to lead to the building of a system there, but the
technology, automated (made driverless) was used by Westinghouse (and then AEG,
then, Adtranz and now Bombardier) for airport people-movers and can be seen in
Seattle, Denver, Atlanta, Orlando, Frankfurt, Houston-IAH (Terminal C to B),
and ironically, Pittsburgh Airports. It also has been used in Miami as a
transit vehicle, called "Metro Mover". It is also used in other places that I
haven't been to.
See:
http://pghbridges.com/clinton/0563-4482/airportmover_tun.htm
and
http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/19990704gratacol5.asp
and especially
ERIKG3
>to go this route, can anybody provide any insight into this for me?
In addition to Detroit, Scarborough (Toronto) and Bangkok, the soon-to-open
AirTrain at JFK airport in New York City will use the UTDC/Bombardier
proprietary technology known in Vancouver as "SkyTrain".
BTW, the Scarborough system has drivers/motormen, or at least cabs for them.
>I really like Skytrain because of its "cool" factor, but I often wonder
>just
>how practical it is.
Well keep in mind that automated trains do not need to pee or take a lunch
break. If you are in Vancouver during the rush, standing at the termini
(Waterfront or King George) is a hoot. Trains arrive from one direction, and
within about 60 seconds, are on their way back from whence they came.
Geoff Howes
"ERIKG3" <eri...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020316143704...@mb-ch.aol.com...
Thanks everybody for al the responses thus far. This has been educational,
and I've been following up with web searches to look further into some of
the things being brought up/mentioned.
TransLink certainly seems to like to promote the "advantages" of fewer
moving parts in the cars and what not, and the fact that they are
driverless, and so does Bombardier. The point made above about automated
trains not needing to take a lunch break is right on-point, and I see what
you're saying. From that aspect its definitly got its advantages. The other
aspect of my "practicality" question is not so much the driverless aspect of
the system or the trains they use, but the cost of building elevated tracks
that criss-cross the city as they do. Watching the contruction of our new
lines here in Vancouver has been incredible, but it just seems to strike me
as as an incredible expense, but maybe thats just because the expenses of
other options just don't make themselves as obvious as track sin the sky do
:). Also, I suppose compared to building a underground system it's
comparable, if not significantly cheaper, and putting trains on the ground
just isn't really an option in this poorely planned city (no pre-planned
right-of-way for trains)... so I suppose from a "practical" standpoint,
elevated rails are about the only option Vancouver has.
I'm sure you can tell I'm very new to the subject, so forgive me if I don't
sound very well informed. But then, thats why I asked the question in the
first place.. to learn more!
Another train system I recently visited was Ottawa's new O-Train. Not much
of a system, in terms of the route, or the speed, or anything, but the cars
themselves seem really nice. I'd be interested to hear any commentary on
the O-Train as well if anybody has anything to say :)
Thanks guys...
Geoff
Tim Shoppa
> :). Also, I suppose compared to building a underground system it's
> comparable, if not significantly cheaper, and putting trains on the ground
> just isn't really an option in this poorely planned city (no pre-planned
> right-of-way for trains)
Actually, for a very major route out of downtown there already
exists a railroad right-of-way - along Arbutus. Problem is,
nobody in the neighborhoods wants to let it be used for mass
transit.
Tim.
Tim Kynerd
Of course, that has nothing to do with taking a bathroom or meal break; it
has to do with the driver having to change ends. Even that can be
eliminated by having an extra driver who takes over the train when it
arrives; the driver who drove the train in then moves to the end of the
platform and takes over the next train that comes in, and so on. (IIRC,
this has been used in London, among other places, and is known as "stepping
back" or something similar.)
--
Tim Kynerd Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden t...@tram.nu
Sunrise in Stockholm today: 6:05
Sunset in Stockholm today: 17:46
My rail transit photos at http://www.kynerd.nu
Geoff Howes
"Tim Shoppa" <sho...@trailing-edge.com> wrote in message
news:3C938B7C...@trailing-edge.com...
So much for it being a "right" of way. :-)
I'm guessing that Arbutus route would still involve a lot of road/rail
intersections that would be a bit of a pain, perhaps another good reason to
elevate the tracks?
I suppose also it makes sense to put electrified tracks in the air... for
safety reasons.
Geoff
Mark Brader
> In addition to Detroit, Scarborough (Toronto) and Bangkok, the
> soon-to-open AirTrain at JFK airport in New York City will use the
> UTDC/Bombardier proprietary technology known in Vancouver as "SkyTrain".
>
> BTW, the Scarborough system has drivers/motormen, or at least cabs for them.
And there are people in them. The TTC didn't want to go with a driverless
system, so they decided to have someone on board to press a "start" button
at each station. There are, of course, similar setups in a number of other
cities; one of the first was the Victoria Line on the London Underground.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Don't get clever at 5PM Friday."
m...@vex.net -- Tom Van Vleck
My text in this article is in the public domain.
dvs519
>In article <20020316143704...@mb-ch.aol.com>, ERIKG3 wrote:
>>>I don't think I've ever heard of any other city choosing
>>>to go this route, can anybody provide any insight into this for me?
>>
>> In addition to Detroit, Scarborough (Toronto) and Bangkok, the soon-to-open
>> AirTrain at JFK airport in New York City will use the UTDC/Bombardier
>> proprietary technology known in Vancouver as "SkyTrain".
>>
>> BTW, the Scarborough system has drivers/motormen, or at least cabs for them.
>>
>>>I really like Skytrain because of its "cool" factor, but I often wonder
>>>just
>>>how practical it is.
>>
>> Well keep in mind that automated trains do not need to pee or take a lunch
>> break. If you are in Vancouver during the rush, standing at the termini
>> (Waterfront or King George) is a hoot. Trains arrive from one direction, and
>> within about 60 seconds, are on their way back from whence they came.
>
>Of course, that has nothing to do with taking a bathroom or meal break; it
>has to do with the driver having to change ends. Even that can be
>eliminated by having an extra driver who takes over the train when it
>arrives; the driver who drove the train in then moves to the end of the
>platform and takes over the next train that comes in, and so on. (IIRC,
>this has been used in London, among other places, and is known as "stepping
>back" or something similar.)
In the lower 48 some systems call it "fall back" where an operator
steps off the inbound train and another operator takes the outbound
train.
Vancouver's SkyTrain has killed a couple of people. Someone
fell/jumped/pushed onto the trackway at a station and was not detected
by the "people detector" pads and a train crushed him/her. Another
killing took place in the shops where either a workman was taking a
short cut across the tracks instead of using a bridge and was crushed
when a car was moved to another track by the controller who did not
see/have a view of the yard tracks involved.
I was taking pictures near the shops on a public street and I waved
when a train went by. Then I felt stupid because I was waving to a
computer driven train. Although they DO have a RAILFAN SEAT with a
windshield wiper you can operate yourself!!!!
====================
Dave by the Beach
Redondo Beach
Southern California
Ba See Lo
<sho...@trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> Actually, for a very major route out of downtown there already
> exists a railroad right-of-way - along Arbutus. Problem is,
> nobody in the neighborhoods wants to let it be used for mass
> transit.
Funny, since the Kerrisdale area grew as a result of the Arbutus
right-of-way being, from the days of the interurban trams, a corridor
for mass transit.
Ba See Lo
<was...@mailcircuit.com> wrote:
Kuala Lampur, Malaysia.
Ba See Lo
<dvs...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I was taking pictures near the shops on a public street and I waved
> when a train went by. Then I felt stupid because I was waving to a
> computer driven train. Although they DO have a RAILFAN SEAT with a
> windshield wiper you can operate yourself!!!!
Vancouver's new MKII SkyTrain cars have the mother-of-all-foamers
windows at the ends of each married pair. And, unlike the MKI cars
which have sideways seats, the MKII have a single seat that faces the
MOAF windows. Makes for a spectacular view of the beautiful Lower
Mainland!
David Barts
> I'm guessing that Arbutus route would still involve a lot of road/rail
> intersections that would be a bit of a pain, perhaps another good reason to
> elevate the tracks?
More than "a bit of a pain" -- unless there's complete grade separation,
I can't imagine a fully-automated, driverless system like SkyTrain being
justifiable in terms of safety. They'd still have to build an elevated
structure down the middle of that median in order to route SkyTrain down
it.
--
David Barts
Portland, OR
Tim Shoppa
That's undoubtedly true. Even along long fairly flat stretches
far from the city itself (like the new Skytrain route along
Lougheed Highway) the track is elevated.
Along the Arbutus ROW, many of the station stop "footprints"
would have to be elevated too. The corridor itself is semi-commercial
in many parts, but in others it is relatively high-class residential.
Tim.
Isaac Brumer
New York's JFK Airtrain (which uses the "Advanced Light Rail Transit"
technology) has an informational website with an extensive collection
of pictures. It's supposed to open later this year.
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/index.html
I'd like to add that it's conceivable that the "linear induction"
technology may result in a lighter car (they're smaller than the
average railcar anyway) and therefore a "slimmer" elevated guideway.
In NYC the AirTrain runs above the median of the Van Wyck Expressway
and seems a lot less visually oppressive than the traditional NYC "el"
structure.
Isaac Brumer
"Geoff Howes" <em...@email.com> wrote in message news:<YIPk8.154371$kb.84...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca>...
Geoff Howes
"Isaac Brumer" <isaac...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Brian Allardice
>Of course, that has nothing to do with taking a bathroom or meal break; it
>has to do with the driver having to change ends.
Besides, without a driver who would jump the red signals or drive into the
buffers....
Cheers,
dba
Brian Allardice
says...
>Vancouver's new MKII SkyTrain cars have the mother-of-all-foamers
>windows at the ends of each married pair. And, unlike the MKI cars
>which have sideways seats, the MKII have a single seat that faces the
>MOAF windows. Makes for a spectacular view of the beautiful Lower
>Mainland!
Although it is still a pretty churlish window...
dba
Brian Allardice
says...
>
>This may or may not be the place to ask, but its a start. I'm curious to
>know if there are any other cities in the world that use Skytrain or
>Skytrain-like technology and concepts. There is a lot of debate in Vancouver
>about this spectacular, but also spectacularly expensive, choice of urban
>transit solutions. I don't think I've ever heard of any other city choosing
>to go this route, can anybody provide any insight into this for me?
Lol! There is a lot of debate about anything that isn't cute or twee in
Vancouver. The big fuss now is over some idiot heritage streetcar along False
Creek. Some morons have obviously been charmed by Seattle....
The truth is that a: good infrastructure is not cheap and that b: SkyTrain is
not particularly expensive. The Millennium Line, if late, is still fairly
close to budget.
I've been away for some time and have not updated my site for the (far from
grand) opening of the first stations, yet for those who haven't seen it I have
information on the Millennium Line and the underlying BCT-ICTS studies at
www.toshikobo.com/gallery.htm
Cheers,
dba