Ruling grades of subways?
Silas Warner
to link to this newsgroup. However, the answer can certainly be
found here.
Ruling grades (the maximum slope of a line) run from 1% to 2% for
freight railroads. But electrified M.U. cars can run on much
steeper slopes (with conventional adhesion gear: I'm not talking
about cog railways or funiculars.)
My questions:
What is the steepest ruling grade on a conventional heavy rail
(subway or elevated) line?
What is the steepest ruling grade on a light rail (streetcar)
line? My nomination is 9% on the J line of the San Francisco
MUNI.
Answers will be of great relevance to the discussion of future
intercity high-speed rail lines.
Silas Warner
Anthony Smith
>My questions:
>
>What is the steepest ruling grade on a conventional heavy rail
>(subway or elevated) line?
There's a real steep grade coming up towards 30th street from 15th on
Philly's Market Frankford line. I don't have numbers, though.
Mark Brader
> This question has come up in another thread, which I do not wish
> to link to this newsgroup. However, the answer can certainly be
> What is the steepest ruling grade on a conventional heavy rail
> (subway or elevated) line?
Silas appears to think that the steepest ruling grade on a conventional
heavy rail line occurs on a urban subway or elevated line. Actually,
it's in the French Alps. The line from St-Gervais-les-Bains to Chamonix
(and continuing to Martigny, Switzerland) reaches a maximum gradient of
9% between Chedde and Servoz.[1] This is meter gauge and worked by EMUs.
The whole area is highly scenic, by the way, and I must recommend to
anyone who has the chance that they take the full length of this line,
preferably eastbound and with a sightseeing stop at Chamonix. A change
of train is required at the border, but the two services are timetabled
to connect.
Several lines in Switzerland have 7% grades and occasionally higher;
I think all of them are meter gauge. Electric locomotives as well as
EMUs are used on these lines.
As for subways, the steepest is in Glasgow at 6.25%, on their 4 foot
gauge loop line that originally used cable traction. Brussels is a
hair behind at 6.2%, followed by Istanbul at 6%. Systems with 5%
grades include Boston, Hamburg, Madrid, Oslo, and Philadelphia. [2]
(Rubber-tired systems, by the way, get up to 7%.)
> Answers will be of great relevance to the discussion of future
> intercity high-speed rail lines.
This seems unlikely. When high speeds must be maintained up a steep
gradient, the power demands increase considerably, requiring more or
larger motors; and the descent of a steep gradient also usually requires
reduced speeds due to increased braking distances. In France, the
original route of the TGV (Paris-Southeast) has a ruling gradient of
3.5%, and at least one climb requires a speed reduction to 137 mph.
The second TGV route, (Atlantic), has a ruling gradient of 2.5%. [3]
Incidentally, the ruling gradient in the Channel Tunnel is just 1.1%. [4]
Sources: [1] "Rail: the Records" by John Marshall, a Guinness Superlatives
book, 1985 edition, ISBN 0-85112-447-X; [2] "World Metro Systems" by Paul
Garbutt, Capital Transport Publishing, 1989, ISBN 1-85414-112-0; [3] "Modern
Railways Special: TGV" by Brian Perren, Ian Allan, 1988, ISBN 0-7110-1706-0;
[4] "Channel Tunnel Trains" by Peter Semmens and Yves Machefert-Tassin,
Eurotunnel, 1994, ISBN 1-872009-33-6.
--
Mark Brader, m...@sq.com Rocket, 1829: The first 30 mph train.
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto TGV-A, 1989: The first 300 mph train.
My text in this article is in the public domain, and in particular,
Silas is invited to repost this article in the other thread.
James Strickland
> What is the steepest ruling grade on a light rail (streetcar)
> line? My nomination is 9% on the J line of the San Francisco
> MUNI.
The Sheffield Supertram handles 12% grades, if I remember correctly.
The word Supertram is well chosen; the things
are 35m long but have 4 motors putting out a total of
1000kW (1341 hp)! This is twice the power of some other trams of
the same length. (Of course, those other trams I'm thinking of
are rather new 100% low floor relatively light designs).
--
James Strickland Interested in transportation issues? Try
ja...@portal.ca http://www.freenet.vancouver.bc.ca/t2000bc/
Tidbit for today: diesel buses use 2.5 times as much energy as do
trolley buses
Bill Bolton
>What is the steepest ruling grade on a conventional heavy rail
>(subway or elevated) line?
CityRail's heavily trafficked North Shore line in Sydney (electrified
heavy rail) has a continuous grade for about 1.5 km of approx 1 in 32
(3.1%) from the subway platforms at the upper level of Wynyard station
to the peak of the grade on the Sydney Harbour Bridge. There are some
moderate radius curves on the grade in the underground section to
adjust from the bridge alignment to that required for the subway run
downtown.
Cheers,
Bill
Bill Bolton billb...@acslink.net.au
Sydney, Australia
Martin Bienwald ^0000^
: What is the steepest ruling grade on a light rail (streetcar)
: line? My nomination is 9% on the J line of the San Francisco
: MUNI.
The city streetcar of Neunkirchen (Germany) had a maximum ruling grade of
about 11%, but ceased to operate in 1978. It was said to be the steepest
streetcar in Europe.
The 'Poestlingbergbahn' in Linz (Austria) and the streetcar lines 12 and 28
of Lisboa (Portugal) also have maximum grades of about 11%.
-- Martin --
Marc Mentzer
>What is the steepest ruling grade on a conventional heavy rail
>(subway or elevated) line?
>
>line? My nomination is 9% on the J line of the San Francisco
>MUNI.
Since Silas seems to be inquring what gradient constitutes the
physical limit for rail systems, we might consider defunct light
rail systems as well.
Among extinct U.S. interurbans, the Northern Ohio had a 2700 ft
grade ranging from 10 to 12.5 percent. The Fonda, Johnstown, &
Gloversville had a 14 percent grade in a street of Amsterdam, N.Y.
(This info from "The Electric Interurban Railways in America" by
Hilton & Due, Stanford University Press, 1960.)
I wonder if there were local trolley lines, now closed, that
were even steeper.
Another speculation: I wonder if the controlling factor is not
loss of traction going uphill, but loss of braking going down.
Trolleys and interurbans on steep hills seemed very susceptible
to derailments.
It's my recollection that Pittsburgh's LRT has grades steeper than
the J Line's 9 percent--I'm thinking of the line that still runs
on the streets between Station Square, over the top of Mount
Washington, to South Hills Junction. I wasn't able to find
the exact gradient in print, however. Perhaps someone else can
give us the specifics.
As for subway systems, I purused an old reference book I have
("World Railways 1963-64" by Henry Sampson), which states that
Boston, Buenos Aires, Hamburg, Madrid, and Philadephia have
5 percent grades. Berlin, Kiev, Moscow, and Stockholm have
4 percent. Of course, a lot has happened in the 32 years since
that book was published, although I would be surprised if any of
those gradients have been reduced.
Marc Mentzer
University of Saskatchewan
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
Bill Bolton
>As for subways, the steepest is in Glasgow at 6.25%, on their 4 foot
>gauge loop line that originally used cable traction. Brussels is a
>hair behind at 6.2%, followed by Istanbul at 6%. Systems with 5%
>grades include Boston, Hamburg, Madrid, Oslo, and Philadelphia. [2]
>(Rubber-tired systems, by the way, get up to 7%.)
This is not a great deal of use for the sort of planning Silas seems
to want the information for. Most underground systems have short
sharp grades with figures like these, especially entering and leaving
platforms or dodging around particular obstacles, but a short grade
has much less impact on overall service speed than does a prolonged
one.
Carbarn
which was traversed in the up direction only. Johnstown, PA had an
uphill-only stretch of over 10% on the Morrelville loop. Both of these
lasted until 1960 or later in the case of Pittsburgh. The previous
contention that a downhill is more dangerous than uphill is correct.
BTW, the steepest bi-directional grade that lasted into the post WWII era
was probably Nelson BC, which I believe was over 10%.
Silas Warner
>m...@sq.com (Mark Brader) wrote:
>
>>As for subways, the steepest is in Glasgow at 6.25%, on their 4 foot
>>gauge loop line that originally used cable traction. Brussels is a
>>hair behind at 6.2%, followed by Istanbul at 6%. Systems with 5%
>>grades include Boston, Hamburg, Madrid, Oslo, and Philadelphia. [2]
>>(Rubber-tired systems, by the way, get up to 7%.)
>
>This is not a great deal of use for the sort of planning Silas seems
>to want the information for.
On the contrary, this info is exactly the sort of thing I want.
The question concerns the proposed high-speed rail line from Los
Angeles to San Francisco. A critical link in this line runs over
Tejon Pass, along a freeway with a ruling grade of 6%. Previous
studies of the line have assumed a ruling grade of 2%, suitable for
freight, But an electrified high-speed train like a TGV or a
Shinkansen, with all wheels powered, can take much higher grades.
The only analogy I can think of is to a subway line, so I inquired
about the maximum grade of subways.
Yes, I'm aware that the train would probably have to slow down
when climbing or descending a 6% grade. But freeway traffic makes
the crossing at 70 mph, and I assume that if not limited by traction,
a high-speed train running on freeway-straight track could do as well.
At least it would be more cost-effective than lengthening the line
by a factor of 3, using spiral tunnels and the like.
Silas Warner
Robert Coe
: This question has come up in another thread, which I do not wish
: to link to this newsgroup. However, the answer can certainly be
: found here. ...
: What is the steepest ruling grade on a conventional heavy rail
: (subway or elevated) line? ...
This *has* come up before, and I seem to recall that we concluded that
it's between 5 and 7%.
: What is the steepest ruling grade on a light rail (streetcar)
: line? My nomination is 9% on the J line of the San Francisco
: MUNI.
:
: Answers will be of great relevance to the discussion of future
: intercity high-speed rail lines.
They will?? Why?
--
___ _ - Bob
/__) _ / / ) _ _
(_/__) (_)_(_) (___(_)_(/_____________________________________ b...@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, MA 01776-2120 USA ** 508-443-3265
Robert Coe
wrote:
: As for subway systems, I purused an old reference book I have
: ("World Railways 1963-64" by Henry Sampson), which states that
: Boston, Buenos Aires, Hamburg, Madrid, and Philadephia have
: 5 percent grades. Berlin, Kiev, Moscow, and Stockholm have
: 4 percent. Of course, a lot has happened in the 32 years since
: that book was published, although I would be surprised if any of
: those gradients have been reduced.
Boston's may have. In the heavy-rail system, there are only three
plausible candidates: the transitions from subway to elevated between
Haymarket and North Station, between Essex and Dover St, and between
Park St and Charles St. The first two of these were eliminated in 1987,
when the Orange Line was relocated underground. (The Green Line incline
between Haymarket and North Station has the same gradient as the defunct
Orange Line incline, but it is serviced only by LRVs, not by heavy-rail
subway trains.)
Brian Allardice
>On the contrary, this info is exactly the sort of thing I want.
>The question concerns the proposed high-speed rail line from Los
>Angeles to San Francisco. A critical link in this line runs over
>Tejon Pass, along a freeway with a ruling grade of 6%.
I don't know the actual figures, but the TGV route intentionally made use
of steeper than usual gradients to go over bumps in the landscape, which
only requires a bit of power, rather than curves to go around them, which
causes considerably more difficulty.
Cheers,
dba
Tom_Pa...@mindlink.bc.ca
>Silas Warner (si...@velo.com) wrote:
>: What is the steepest ruling grade on a light rail (streetcar)
>: line? My nomination is 9% on the J line of the San Francisco
>: MUNI.
Pittsburgh's 21 Fineview line had a 14.4% grade for half a block. This is the
steepest adhesion worked streetcar grade I am aware of. I rode up this grade
many times and only once did the PCC car have to back-up to take a run at it.
The line was abandoned around 1965 after Pittsburgh Railways had been taken over
by the Port Authority (PAT).
: Tom_Pa...@mindlink.bc.ca Vancouver, BC Canada
: Transport Consulting Limited 604 733-5430, fax 733-5437
Ron Newman
>: As for subway systems, I purused an old reference book I have
>: ("World Railways 1963-64" by Henry Sampson), which states that
>: Boston, Buenos Aires, Hamburg, Madrid, and Philadephia have
>: 5 percent grades. [snip]
>: Of course, a lot has happened in the 32 years since
>: that book was published, although I would be surprised if any of
>: those gradients have been reduced.
>
>Boston's may have. In the heavy-rail system, there are only three
>plausible candidates: the transitions from subway to elevated between
>Haymarket and North Station, between Essex and Dover St, and between
>Park St and Charles St. The first two of these were eliminated in 1987,
>when the Orange Line was relocated underground.
The Haymarket-North Orange Line relocation opened in 1975,
eliminating the Haymarket-North Station incline.
The Southwest Corridor Orange Line relocation opened in 1987.
eliminating the Essex-Dover incline.
(I'm sure Bob Coe just made a careless mistake here -- he knows
MBTA history much better than I do!)
--
Ron Newman rne...@cybercom.net
Web: http://www.cybercom.net/~rnewman/home.html
Rshedd
variant of the original question:
What is the ruling grade of a high-speed passenger-only rail line which is
NOT electrified? (Say, for purposes of discussion, that speed could be
permitted to decline to 30 mph on the "ruling grade"
The proposed application is a rail line between Denver and the Summit
County Ski resorts, which would follow a new alignment paralleling I-70.
Bob Shedd
Belcher, John (EG&G/Unisys)
In article <3127d1b4...@news.iii.net>, Robert Coe <b...@1776.COM>
wrote:
>
>
>Boston's may have. In the heavy-rail system, there are only three
>plausible candidates: the transitions from subway to elevated between
>Haymarket and North Station, between Essex and Dover St, and between
>Park St and Charles St. The first two of these were eliminated in 1987,
>when the Orange Line was relocated underground.
The steepest grade on the Boston rapid-transit system is the
Blue Line tunnel under Boston Harbor, I think it
is in the 4-5% range.
Jonathan
Robert Coe
wrote:
: In article <3127d1b4...@news.iii.net>, Robert Coe <b...@1776.COM> wrote:
: >Boston's may have. In the heavy-rail system, there are only three
: >plausible candidates: the transitions from subway to elevated between
: >Haymarket and North Station, between Essex and Dover St, and between
: >Park St and Charles St. The first two of these were eliminated in 1987,
: >when the Orange Line was relocated underground.
:
: eliminating the Haymarket-North Station incline.
:
: The Southwest Corridor Orange Line relocation opened in 1987.
: eliminating the Essex-Dover incline.
Oops, yeah. The northern end was completed several years earlier than
the southern.
Tobias Koehler
: What is the ruling grade of a high-speed passenger-only rail line which is
: NOT electrified? (Say, for purposes of discussion, that speed could be
: permitted to decline to 30 mph on the "ruling grade"
30mph is not exactly "high speed" :) I don't know of any high-
speed passenger-only rail line in the world which is NOT
electrified, so this question is a bit academic.
--
tobias benjamin köhler ,-/o"O`--.._ _/(_
uk...@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de _,-o'.|o 0 'O o O`o--'. e\
s_...@ira.uka.de (`o-..___..--''o:,-' )o /._" O "o 0 o : ._>
un...@tigerden.com ``--o___o..o.'' :'.O\_ ```--.\o .' `--
`-`.,) \`.o`._
FL `-`-.,)