BART rider alert - light rain means late trains
Adrian Brandt
This morning, I scarcely noticed a little rain had fallen overnight.
But BART was getting the word out via the "AM drive-time" radio
stations that trains were running slow and late due to wet tracks.
I've noticed this type of puzzling announcement in the past, but had
forgotten about it. What gives? Anyone know of any other rail transit
systems that run slower & later when there is rain or even a drizzle?
All-weather operation is generally considered one of rail's advantages.
Why doesn't this apply to BART--especially when a significant chunk of
BART is underground where its always dry?
--
Adrian Brandt
(408) 565-7291 / a...@nt.com
RicSilver
AB>This morning, I scarcely noticed a little rain had fallen overnight.
AB>But BART was getting the word out via the "AM drive-time" radio
AB>stations that trains were running slow and late due to wet tracks.
AB>I've noticed this type of puzzling announcement in the past, but had
AB>forgotten about it. What gives? Anyone know of any other rail transit
AB>systems that run slower & later when there is rain or even a drizzle?
Yes, CalTrain! I've noticed it happen to CalTrain when it rains. Perhaps
it just the nature of rail transit?
Richard L Silver
415-368-7112
Shon Sterling
Personally I dont want trains sliding into stations.. And it seems that
like driving BART gets cautious with the first rains.. I'm sure metal on
metal with water makes them much more slippery.
RicSilver (rics...@aol.com) wrote:
: AB>stations that trains were running slow and late due to wet tracks.
: AB>I've noticed this type of puzzling announcement in the past, but had
: AB>forgotten about it. What gives? Anyone know of any other rail transit
: AB>systems that run slower & later when there is rain or even a drizzle?
:
: Yes, CalTrain! I've noticed it happen to CalTrain when it rains. Perhaps
: it just the nature of rail transit?
:
: Richard L Silver
: 415-368-7112
:
:
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Martin J. Bernard III
slippier in light rains?
Marty Bernard
Elson Trinidad
>
>This morning, I scarcely noticed a little rain had fallen overnight.
Bummer! I thought rain makes trains go faster :)
I mean, it's not like BART operators have to worry about cars driving
around gates and pedestrians crossing the tracks...Heck, it's not like
BART operators have to worry about *anything*! :)
-- 30 --
E l s o n T r i n i d a d
ertr...@skat.usc.edu * lam...@aol.com
Visit ElsoNet @ the URL -> http://ucs.usc.edu/~ertrinid/
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Bachelor of Arts, Print Journalism
=============================================================================
"I'm basically an egotistical maniac with an inferiority complex."
Eric Rosenberg
: What do heavy rains mean? I don't understand this either. Is the rail
: slippier in light rains?
Yes, it takes longer to stop. Therefore it slows the system down.
--
Eric Rosenberg
Three men can keep a secret, as long as two of them are dead.
Benjamin Franklin
Steve Renker
> Well in some sections bart hits 75+ mph and enter stations at 38..
> Personally I dont want trains sliding into stations.. And it seems that
> like driving BART gets cautious with the first rains.. I'm sure metal on
> metal with water makes them much more slippery.
We've been through this before, but it's been about a year...
The engineers who designed BART were so sure of their computers that there
are very few manual controls on BART trains; all the operator can do is
move the train around the yard a little. So, BART has to be very careful
when it rains to keep the trains from overshooting the stations,
especially if the trains use friction braking (I forget if this is the
case), because if a train doesn't stop short enough, the operator can't
back it up.
Newer rapid-rail systems learned from this mistake: DC Metro and later
systems have a full set of manual controls for when the computer can't
manage. MARTA's braking is mostly dynamic and regenerative (except to keep
the train stopped in the station), which means there are no friction pads
to get wet. Because the wheels are still slipping on the wet rails, they
have had to back a train up into the station every now and then.
OTOH, BART runs where a lot of people want to go. Atlanta drivers get
pretty jealous sometimes. :-)
Adrian Brandt
> AB>But BART was getting the word out via the "AM drive-time" radio
> AB>stations that trains were running slow and late due to wet tracks.
> AB>I've noticed this type of puzzling announcement in the past, but had
> AB>forgotten about it. What gives? Anyone know of any other rail transit
> AB>systems that run slower & later when there is rain or even a drizzle?
>
> Yes, CalTrain! I've noticed it happen to CalTrain when it rains. Perhaps
> it just the nature of rail transit?
I don't recall that. We've been having drizzles and wet tracks on and
off for the last few days, and I haven't noticed any *wet track*-related
slow-downs. (Weather related-delays occur occasionally, but due to other
factors.) I also monitor the CalTrain radio frequency used by the train
crews and engineer to keep in touch with each other and with "San Jose
Control", and this kind of thing has never surfaced there either.
As a regular and long-time CalTrain user, and as one who in my travels
has experienced a great many transit systems all over western Europe, I
don't recall this happening on any other rail transit systems.
Adrian Brandt
trhi...@aol.com (TRHickey) writes:
> The solution is sand. Unfortunately, SEPTA's MU fleet does not have
> sanders. The new Norristown High Speed Line cars were ordered without
> them but were fortunately retrofitted with them soon after arrival. Do
> BART cars have sanders? If so, are they being used?
Sand! I think that's it.
That might account for the difference. I'm almost positive BART is not
equipped with sanders. I'm 100% certain CalTrain has and uses sanders.
I think sander-equipped LRVs are not that uncommon either. German S-Bahn
equipment (BART like EMU-equipment) has sanders too. I imagine BART
engineers didn't like the idea of sanders because they can be messy (they
dump sand on the rail!), and because they're part of standard railroading--
which some say BART was trying to get as far away from as possible.
Alan Hirsch
~rics...@aol.com (RicSilver) writes:
~> a...@ntmtv.com (Adrian Brandt) posted:
~>
~> AB>This morning, I scarcely noticed a little rain had fallen overnight.
~> AB>But BART was getting the word out via the "AM drive-time" radio
~> AB>stations that trains were running slow and late due to wet tracks.
~> AB>I've noticed this type of puzzling announcement in the past, but had
~> AB>forgotten about it. What gives? Anyone know of any other rail transit
~> AB>systems that run slower & later when there is rain or even a drizzle?
~>
Rick Silver Wrote:
~> Yes, CalTrain! I've noticed it happen to CalTrain when it rains. Perhaps
~> it just the nature of rail transit?
AB~I don't recall that. We've been having drizzles and wet tracks on and
~off for the last few days, and I haven't noticed any *wet track*-related
~slow-downs. (Weather related-delays occur occasionally, but due to other
~factors.) I also monitor the CalTrain radio frequency used by the train
~crews and engineer to keep in touch with each other and with "San Jose
~Control", and this kind of thing has never surfaced there either.
Rick..
Can you or anyone else provide some data or fact to suggest what impact rain has
on CalTrain's speed and ability to meet its schedule and/or stop at right
locations at stations? BART thinks their delays are significant enough to
anounce on the Radio.....
Adrian Brandt
rics...@aol.com (RicSilver) writes:
> AH> Can you or anyone else provide some data or fact to suggest what impact
> AH> rain has on CalTrain's speed and ability to meet its schedule and/or
> AH> stop at right locations at stations?
>
> Observation. Anytime it rains, the train tend to run slower.
Recommendation: have your powers of observation checked :-) The staff
reports to the JPB over the last 7 or so years that I've been following
them have never cited wet tracks as cause for poor on-time performance
or for late trains.
> AH> BART thinks their delays are significant enough to anounce on
> AH> the Radio.....
>
> That's because the radio stations tend to ignore CalTrain because
> it is such a small system.
Au contraire! Major CalTrain service disruptions are reported by radio
stations. It's really a matter of when BART or CalTrain decide
to issue an advisory to the media. I must say, historically BART has
been better about calling in problems. BART also have a nice big staff
to handle all this kind of stuff. CalTrain staff--on the other hand--
can be counted on one or two hands, depending on who you count as staff.
But then, when it comes to rain or drizzle BART evidently has a lot more
problems to report anyway...
Adrian Brandt
md...@netcom.com (Malcolm D. Moore) writes:
> who has ridden both systems regularly and prefers BART because
> you can at least sleep on BART
You can sleep on CalTrain too. There are no rules against it,
and you see people doing it all the time. It isn't so much of
a problem though because most conductors will take the time to
wake somebody if they notice they're about to sleep past their
station stop. One annoying part of it is the rude people who
curl up and fall asleep on a set of double seats facing each
other--effectively monopolizing seating for 4.
Adrian Brandt
ahi...@best.com (Alan Hirsch) writes:
> Can you or anyone else provide some data or fact to suggest what impact
> significant enough to anounce on the Radio.....
Just today, Tuesday, Dec. 5, I *again* heard on the radio that BART
was experiencing system-wide delays due to wet tracks.
Maybe BART ought to invest in some sanders :-)
RicSilver
AH>Rick..
Yes Alan..
AH>Can you or anyone else provide some data or fact to suggest what impact
AH>rain has on CalTrain's speed and ability to meet its schedule and/or
stop at AH>right locations at stations?
Observation. Anytime it rains, the train tend to run slower.
AH>BART thinks their delays are significant enough AH>to anounce on the
AH>Radio.....
That's because the radio stations tend to ignore CalTrain because it is
such a small system.
Richard L Silver
CalTrain Rider
Malcolm D. Moore
>This morning, I scarcely noticed a little rain had fallen overnight.
>But BART was getting the word out via the "AM drive-time" radio
>stations that trains were running slow and late due to wet tracks.
>I've noticed this type of puzzling announcement in the past, but had
>forgotten about it. What gives? Anyone know of any other rail transit
>systems that run slower & later when there is rain or even a drizzle?
>All-weather operation is generally considered one of rail's advantages.
>Why doesn't this apply to BART--especially when a significant chunk of
>BART is underground where its always dry?
Why does this sound like the prelude to yet another BART/Caltrain debate.
Personally I would rather them run trains slower on rainy days, to be
safe. It is better to be late than to be never.
Malcolm
who has ridden both systems regularly and prefers BART because you can
at least sleep on BART
--
Malcolm D. Moore
American International Group release me from the
md...@netcom.com pain of an ordinary day.
Eric McCaughrin
>But BART was getting the word out via the "AM drive-time" radio
>stations that trains were running slow and late due to wet tracks.
>
>I've noticed this type of puzzling announcement in the past, but had
>forgotten about it. What gives? Anyone know of any other rail transit
>systems that run slower & later when there is rain or even a drizzle?
>
>All-weather operation is generally considered one of rail's advantages.
>Why doesn't this apply to BART--especially when a significant chunk of
>BART is underground where its always dry?
According to Sherman Lewis -- BART director from Hayward -- if the
train stops too quickly on a slick track you risk a skid. There's
no risk of skidding past the station or anything like that. However,
even the tiniest skid will heat up the wheel and warp it.
A warped wheel is still usable, but would cause noise and vibration.
--
Eric McCaughrin "There's no such thing as
me...@mti.sgi.com bad weather -- just bad
http://reality.sgi.com/employees/meric_mti clothing."
Tom Wetzel
---
Writes Richard Silver:
>That's because the radio stations tend to ignore CalTrain because it is
>such a small system.
That can't explain any difference between BART and CalTrain reporting
by the media since the route miles are comparable. BART is only
71 route miles, remember.
Tom Wetzel
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
thomas...@eng.sun.com
DaveHatunen
Malcolm D. Moore <md...@netcom.com> wrote:
>a...@ntmtv.com (Adrian Brandt) writes:
>
>
>>This morning, I scarcely noticed a little rain had fallen overnight.
>>But BART was getting the word out via the "AM drive-time" radio
>>stations that trains were running slow and late due to wet tracks.
>
>>I've noticed this type of puzzling announcement in the past, but had
>>forgotten about it. What gives? Anyone know of any other rail transit
>>systems that run slower & later when there is rain or even a drizzle?
>
>>All-weather operation is generally considered one of rail's advantages.
>>Why doesn't this apply to BART--especially when a significant chunk of
>>BART is underground where its always dry?
>
>
>Personally I would rather them run trains slower on rainy days, to be
>safe. It is better to be late than to be never.
Back when I was riding CalTrain regularly, one of the conductors told
me that one rainy day a southbound train was approaching Burlingame
station. There where the eucalyptus grove encroaches on the right of
way. Apparently, a lot of eucalyptus leaves had fallen on the track,
and when the train tried to stop at the station it slid well on by,
until it actually cleared the station on the other side.
(Whole area must have smelled like Noxzema afterward.)
--
********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@netcom.com) **********
* Daly City California: almost San Francisco *
* but with parking and lower car insurance rates *
*******************************************************
Lou Schneider
: I imagine BART
: engineers didn't like the idea of sanders because they can be messy (they
: dump sand on the rail!), and because they're part of standard railroading--
: which some say BART was trying to get as far away from as possible.
Not to mention that a layer of silicon ground into the track surface
would raise heck with the computer sensing the position of the train.
Heck, a little road grime was enough to foul up the computers during the
testing phase. That's why each and every BART car is equipped with
scrapers to keep the wheel to rain interface nice and shiny.
Lou Schneider
lo...@crl.com
Dobrow Stephen
> stop a BART train on the mark in wet weather, but who wants to pay
> the Japanese for that kind of technology?
The Japanese fuzzy logic technology gives a smoother ride and saves energy.
So we should use it where appropriate. (incidentally, they're not the only
people developing such systems)
RicSilver
RS>That's because the radio stations tend to ignore CalTrain because it is
RS>such a small system.
TW>That can't explain any difference between BART and CalTrain reporting
TW>by the media since the route miles are comparable. BART is only
TW>71 route miles, remember.
Smaller in ridership NOT size... Try again...
Richard L Silver
San Mateo County, CA
415-368-7112
Esser94530
>>Rick..
Can you or anyone else provide some data or fact to suggest what impact
rain has
on CalTrain's speed and ability to meet its schedule and/or stop at right
locations at stations? BART thinks their delays are significant enough to
anounce on the Radio..... <<
It would be interesting to stand at a station, maybe RWC for example, and
see if trains are on time during a rain storm. I've always thought
railroads were pretty much all-weather transportation.
Also, I've never noticed any sand on BART tracks. All real railroads use
track sanders. Maybe that's why BART is slow when wet.
Adrian Brandt
hat...@netcom.com (DaveHatunen) writes:
> Back when I was riding CalTrain regularly, one of the conductors told
> me that one rainy day a southbound train was approaching Burlingame
> station. There where the eucalyptus grove encroaches on the right of
> way. Apparently, a lot of eucalyptus leaves had fallen on the track,
> and when the train tried to stop at the station it slid well on by,
> until it actually cleared the station on the other side.
Yes, this is one of the drawback of all-human control (vs. the drawbacks
of all-computer contolled). There have been incidents of CalTrain
engineers overshooting stations on perfectly dry sunny days (and with
clean rails) too. Once in very great while, they have been known to
forget to make a scheduled stop, or stop at a station they were not
scheduled to...
David A. Kaye
" station stop. One annoying part of it is the rude people who
" curl up and fall asleep on a set of double seats facing each
" other--effectively monopolizing seating for 4.
I just ask them to move and stand there until they do. Sometimes you
just have to prod people into proper behavior. I've never had a problem
with this.
--
(c) 1995 75% of harpists develop back problems.
David Kaye
RicSilver
AB>rics...@aol.com (RicSilver) writes:
AH> Can you or anyone else provide some data or fact to suggest what
impact
AH> rain has on CalTrain's speed and ability to meet its schedule and/or
AH> stop at right locations at stations?
RS>Observation. Anytime it rains, the train tend to run slower.
AB>Recommendation: have your powers of observation checked :-)
Cute Adrian, real cute...
AB>The staff reports to the JPB over the last 7 or so years that I've been
following
AB>them have never cited wet tracks as cause for poor on-time performance
AB>or for late trains.
Next time we have some rain go to a CalTrain station, especially during
the rush, I'll bet you'll see that the trains tend to run a later than
normal. It may not be due entirly to the tracks, it could that people take
longer to get on or off the train, the enginer may be a little more
cautious etc. but in any case they tend to run slower.
AH> BART thinks their delays are significant enough to anounce on
AH> the Radio.....
RS>That's because the radio stations tend to ignore CalTrain because
RS>it is such a small system.
AB>Au contraire!
Excusez-moi?, Avez-vous parlez francis, moi ami?
AB> Major CalTrain service disruptions are reported by radio stations.
It's really a AB>matter of when BART or CalTrain decide to issue an
advisory to the media. I AB>must say, historically BART has been better
about calling in problems.BART AB>also have a nice big staff to handle all
this kind of stuff. CalTrain staff--on the AB>other hand--can be counted
on one or two hands, depending on who you AB>count as staff.
Since CalTrain is less than 10% the size of BART they should have a
smaller staff.
AB>But then, when it comes to rain or drizzle BART evidently has a lot
more
AB>problems to report anyway...
Unlike CalTrain, which only has to worry about running over someone (21 so
far this year isn't it.)
Au revoir
Monsieur Richard Argent
La Ville du bois du rouge
415-368-7112
Tom Wetzel
---
>RS>That's because the radio stations tend to ignore CalTrain because it is
>RS>such a small system.
>
>TW>That can't explain any difference between BART and CalTrain reporting
>TW>by the media since the route miles are comparable. BART is only
>TW>71 route miles, remember.
>
>Smaller in ridership NOT size... Try again...
Ah, so you meant "ridership", not geographic extent. But, then, Rick never was
particularly careful about his claims.
Tom Wetzel
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
thomas...@eng.sun.com
Alan Hirsch
~Also, I've never noticed any sand on BART tracks. All real railroads use
~track sanders. Maybe that's why BART is slow when wet.
In another string someone noted that BART needs good contact with the track to
keep its computer locator system working and sand would throw that off. and
they stated BART has scrappers to keep track clean..
Someone also quoted sherman lewis, bart director, as stateing BART is very
sensitive to avoiding skids, even in the wet, as they cause the wheel to
overheat, warp, and then be noisy.
Does anyone know why CalTrain wheels go out of round? (its all too comon).
Alan
Elson Trinidad
Mainly on the planes. With trains made in Spain!
Adrian Brandt
ahi...@best.com (Alan Hirsch) writes:
>
> Does anyone know why CalTrain wheels go out of round? (its all too comon).
I don't know about frequencies of this stuff on CalTrain, but generelly
here is some basic info. Flat spots are caused by skids and leads to a
whump, whump, whumping in time with wheel rotation. CalTrain cars have
anti-skid brakes, but I don't know if the anti-skid system prevents all
skids or just most of them.
There is also run-of-the-mill wheel wear which makes the wheel loose its
ideal conical profile. The car will not "track" as well, and so will be
bouncing off the flanges more and make for a worse ride.
Also, the locomotives used to have a problem where the wheels would get
hotter than they should. This is because Caltrans, to save some money,
didn't specify dynamic or blended locomotive brakes when they ordered
the current locomotive fleet. With lots of fast starts and stops, the
loco wheels occasionally suffered heat damage from the friction wheel
brakes. I believe this problem has been mitigated by a policy of 4-car
consists for improved braking (the cars have better anti-skid disc
brakes) and perhaps some train handling directives to engineers.
Adrian Brandt
sch...@jedi.nsc.com (Steven M. Scharf) writes:
> The storm today significantly affected CalTrain. Even once the tracks
> were cleared of debris, the trains still ran very slow. Don't know if
> it was due to wet tracks or what. Also the signal gates were
> malfunctioning in San Mateo and drivers were going around the closed
> gates.
Today (this morning, at least) is what you'd call a bad day for CalTrain.
Rain was so much the problem, as it was wind. A tree was blown down
across the tracks in the Millbrae/Burlingame area, and numerous crossing
gates were damaged or broken by wind gusts and or swinging wires. When
gates are damaged or not working properly, the train must generally
make a full stop just short of the crossing and take special precautions
when moving through.
> I don't know if there is a 'right' location to stop at the station,
> but I've observed that CalTrain is like lightning--it rarely hits
> the same spot twice!
That's not for lack of being able to. Engineers can stop at the same
place every time if they want to, or are instructed to. They are
currently only called upon to do this when a wheelchair is either
going to board or alight. Other than for "ADA" (Americans with
Disabilities Act) stops, engineers stop about where they think they
ought to (within reason), depending on personal preference, mood
and train length or which cars are open, closed or full.
> The radio stations do report on Caltrain delays Rick (at least on
> KCBS). As the head of Friends of Caltrain you should know this.
Hey, ease up! A one-man organization can't keep up with everything :-)