Re: Lord Adonis announces tram-trains for the Abbey Line
E27002
> "burkey" <johnnyburk...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0760ca98-1146-41c3...@d10g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> From the Department for Transport
> Friday 30th October 2009
>
> Rail passengers travelling between Watford and St Albans are in line
> for more regular and more frequent services thanks to exciting plans
> to create a new tram service, announced today by Transport Secretary
> Andrew Adonis and Hertfordshire County Council.
>
>
>
> This raises a lot of questions.
> Will the tram trains use the existing 25 kV OHLE, or will the line be
> re-electrified at 750 V DC?
> Will there be additional stations (Garston and How Wood are comparatively
> recent additions)?
> Will the tram trains be high floor or low floor? If the latter the existing
> stations will have to be altered.
> Are street-running extensions envisaged at either end?
>
> Peter
Those were the questions that came to my mind. If the system extends
in the street 25 kV would not be an option there. OTOH, IIRC Karlsruhe
has dual voltage units.
Re-electrifying the line would not be a cheap, or easy, option.
D7666
> On Oct 30, 3:42 am, "Peter Masson" <peter.mass...@privacy.com> wrote:
> > Will the tram trains use the existing 25 kV OHLE, or will the line be
> > re-electrified at 750 V DC?
> Those were the questions that came to my mind. If the system extends
> in the street 25 kV would not be an option there. OTOH, IIRC Karlsruhe
> has dual voltage units.
There is no need to re-electrify for the sake of it ... tram-trains
such as Siemens Avanto are already capable of 750 1500 3000 15000
25000 V operation of various systems and frequencies, and in dual
voltage forms - 750/25000 V is actually the one in Siemens export
blurb.
I'd also suggest the cost of 750 V DC re-electrification could be as
high as providing a mid point passing loop, then there'd be a need for
full depot provision if single voltage DC. At least a 25 kV tram/train
can still get to Willesden / Bletchley / Northampton / wherever.
A novel solution would be to a two track covered car-shed that *is*
the passing loop i.e. build loop under a shed. All trams work in day,
spare if any can sit at Watford Jn in a sdg, at night they berth in
the shed, passenger platform - I assume we are keeping high platforms
- cab double as cleabers access.
Now where did I get that idea from .... Volks perhaps :o)
--
Nick
E27002
solution. Is there potentional to continue the route into the city/
town centre(s) at either or both ends?
D7666
> If this is not just electioneering, then this might be a good
> solution. Is there potentional to continue the route into the city/
> town centre(s) at either or both ends?- Hide quoted text -
St.Albans end yes easy, all would be needed is a contination then
right turn, up the hill, into city centre. Steep climb though nothing
beyond tram capability.
Naturally uk.railway will demand it *must* run to St Albans City but I
see no partcular need to do that if serving the town centre is better
especially if Watford line gets enhanced service.
Watford end would need to bridge or tunnel the WCML to reach to town
centre.
--
Nick
Solario
> On 30 Oct, 14:45, allanbonnetracy <allanbonnetr...@ireland.com> wrote:
>
> > What's wrong with a busway?
>
> Guided or unguided?
Misguided perhaps?
THC
> On Oct 30, 6:00 pm, E27002 <e27...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If this is not just electioneering, then this might be a good
> > solution. Is there potentional to continue the route into the city/
> > town centre(s) at either or both ends?- Hide quoted text -
>
> St.Albans end yes easy, all would be needed is a contination then
> right turn, up the hill, into city centre. Steep climb though nothing
> beyond tram capability.
Tram/train appears to me to be about the rolling stock and not about
the town-centre penetration, certainly in this case. There's no need
in Watford, where WJ is at one end of Clarendon Road, the office
district of the town centre, and the High Street loop on the DC line
provides a service to the southern end of the town centre for the
shops. As Burkey says elsewhere, the majority of pax head not to SA
but to WJ, whether for the town or for onward connections to London.
HCC's adoption of the Abbey line and the go-ahead for this scheme seem
to me to be a quid pro quo for getting Croxley Rail Link money before
the coffers close for good on regional transport allocations (i.e.
just after the Tories get in and slash the budgets). Adonis and DafT
obtain proof of concept on a pet scheme and HCC's CRL scheme, which
has been around for longer than me, goes to the top of the pile for
what's left. Simples.
THC
Bruce
<thcon...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>HCC's adoption of the Abbey line and the go-ahead for this scheme seem
>to me to be a quid pro quo for getting Croxley Rail Link money before
>the coffers close for good on regional transport allocations (i.e.
>just after the Tories get in and slash the budgets). Adonis and DafT
>obtain proof of concept on a pet scheme and HCC's CRL scheme, which
>has been around for longer than me, goes to the top of the pile for
>what's left.
Sounds good if it works, but is there any evidence of an imminent
go-ahead for the Croxley Rail Link?
Of course there is nothing to stop the Tories cancelling or delaying
it if they are elected with a working majority.
E27002
wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 19:38:44 +0000, Bruce <docnews2...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >It's probably cheaper than heavy rail on the Network Rail/TOC model.
> >However, a single branch line, separate from the national network,
> >could be much more cheaply run. The comparison between that and the
> >used trams is the one that should be made.
>
> The involvement of the used trams is an interesting twist to the tale
> - it may well save a lot of money, because plenty of countries are
> replacing high-floor trams with low-floor, so these trams could come
> very cheap indeed and potentially in very large volumes if it could
> actually make it worth throwing up some wires on other branch lines.
>
The first question that comes to mind is "In what condition are these
pre-owned trams?” Assuming there is reasonable rolling stock
available; one then has to wonder if this could be a way to make more
light projects affordable.
E27002
wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 05:01:01 -0800 (PST), Rob <rob_s_sm...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >There has been a campaign to run the Abbey Flyer into Euston in the
> >past, but it always ran into the problem that Virgin needed the train
> >paths, whereas St Albans already has a direct route into London
> >(albeit very overloaded)
>
> There has to be room on the slow lines, as LM are increasing the
> service in December with some Watford shuttles that could easily run
> through from St Albans if the infrastructure was sorted.
>
Where will this tram be maintained? How will it reach that location?
If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by
another motive power unit.
My best guess is that these issues have been considered.
Arthur Figgis
> Where will this tram be maintained? How will it reach that location?
> If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by
> another motive power unit.
>
> My best guess is that these issues have been considered.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view//st-albans-abbey-tram-train-announced.html
says "Network Rail land for a depot has been identified at St Albans Abbey."
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Matthew Geier
> Where will this tram be maintained? How will it reach that location? If
> it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by
> another motive power unit.
>
> My best guess is that these issues have been considered.
Siemens has already built a batch of 'Avanto' 'tram-trains' that are
equipped for 25kAC/750vDC operation and are even fitted with appropriate
train protection equipment for the area they operate in.
All you need to do is borrow one Avanto from RAPT (Paris T4) for a while
to try out.
D7666
Perhaps they could re-import ex-DLR cars that were exported 2nd hand
to Essen (but were imported new anyway.
The 11 P86 sets would be about the right fleet size x5 2-set trains
and one spare unit :o)
Even have grandfather rights ?
Not that I am aware Essen are selling them .
--
Nick
D7666
<matt...@no.sleeper.no.apana.no.org.no.au> wrote:
> Siemens has already built a batch of 'Avanto' 'tram-trains' that are
> equipped for 25kAC/750vDC operation and are even fitted with appropriate
> train protection equipment for the area they operate in.
I've already posted Avantos exist way back upthread.
It is about the 42nd time I've mentioned Avanto in various thread in
this forum over recent years, yet every new thread about tram/trains
trots out the same uninformed drivel about perceived 25 kV / 750 V
trams not exisitng, need to re-wire 25 kV to 750 V etc, when they do
exist and are well proven. There are even electro-diesel options
although not sure if any of those have actually been built yet.
--
Nick
Neil Williams
<matt...@no.sleeper.no.apana.no.org.no.au> wrote:
> All you need to do is borrow one Avanto from RAPT (Paris T4) for a while
> to try out.
High floor? (Or is there room near the existing stations for a
temporary low-floor platform?)
Neil
E27002
Correct me if I am wrong: The DLR cars are DC only. The issue here is
the need to function under the 25 kV AC wire. Also, are they still
third rail only? Or, did Essen add a DC pantograph?
David Jackman
897704...@a37g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
Why on earth would you want to get Network Rail involved?
Isn't one of the attractions of this that you are isolated from the "big
railway" and won't need to comply with (or have rolling stock that complies
with) Group Statdards?
E27002
> E27002 <e27...@gmail.com> wrote in news:5a91ccd3-e16a-4f8e-b721-
Indeed. However, when I posted the foregoing, I was not aware that
the route was to have its own tram depot.
D7666
> On Nov 4, 1:31 am, D7666 <d7...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Perhaps they could re-import ex-DLR cars that were exported 2nd hand
> > to Essen (but were imported new anyway.
>
> > The 11 P86 sets would be about the right fleet size x5 2-set trains
> > and one spare unit :o)
> Correct me if I am wrong: The DLR cars are DC only. The issue here is
> the need to function under the 25 kV AC wire. Also, are they still
> third rail only? Or, did Essen add a DC pantograph?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Did the :o) in my msg pass you by ?
--
Nick
E27002
Paul
Are you mad? No they'd load it on to an Alley's low loader every night
for the move to Bletchley depot. Come one now man, get a grip of
yourself. We can't have rolling stock being moved from location to
another by rail!! Its just not British!
Paul
>
> - Show quoted text -
As they did for the DLR Metrolink demonstator in Gorton some years
ago. Unit 11 if my memory serves me right. That was exciting. i
wonder, did they stable or load/unload the unir at Reddish depot that
time?
DW downunder
"D7666" <d7...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:908ef80e-bf60-4589...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
--
Nick
>>>>>>>>>>>>
And for that matter, battery equipped units to get past environmentally
sensitive areas - even trolley buses doing that with batteries (see Peking,
Wellington for examples).
DW down under
Peter Lawrence
wrote:
>On Nov 3, 11:29=A0pm, E27002 <e27...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 3, 1:07=A0pm, wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams)
>> wrote:> On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 05:01:01 -0800 (PST), Rob <rob_s_sm...@hotmail=
>.com>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > >There has been a campaign to run the Abbey Flyer into Euston in the
>> > >past, but it always ran into the problem that Virgin needed the train
>> > >paths, whereas St Albans already has a direct route into London
>> > >(albeit very overloaded)
>>
>> > There has to be room on the slow lines, as LM are increasing the
>> > service in December with some Watford shuttles that could easily run
>> > through from St Albans if the infrastructure was sorted.
>>
>> Where will this tram be maintained? =A0How will it reach that location?
>> If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled by
>> another motive power unit.
>>
>> My best guess is that these issues have been considered.
>
>Where will this tram be maintained? How will it reach that location?
>If it is to reach Bletchley, it will have to be 25 kV Ac, or pulled
>by
>another motive power unit.
>
>Are you mad? No they'd load it on to an Alley's low loader every night
>for the move to Bletchley depot. Come one now man, get a grip of
>yourself. We can't have rolling stock being moved from location to
>another by rail!! Its just not British!
You missed an earler post which said that room for a depot had been
identified at st Albans. However the official answer now is that this
is up to the contractor to sort out. I would have throught that
Watford or the former North Watford sidings, had beter potential depot
space.
--
Peter Lawrence
Tom Anderson
Does it really make sense to have a dedicated maintenance facility just
for this one tram? Or when we say 'depot', do we mean 'somewhere to sleep
at night plus somewhere for light maintenance eg changing the light
bulbs', with heavy work being done at an existing major depot reached by
rail or low-loader?
tom
--
Kevin was inspired as an actor by Super Engineer A.K.A Wondergirl T-rav
Camelang -- Wikipedia, on Kevin Bacon
D7666
> Does it really make sense to have a dedicated maintenance facility just
> for this one tram?
One ?
You've obviousy not been following this very well have you.
--
Nick
Tom Anderson
No, not in the slightest! So, does it really make sense to have a
dedicated maintenance facility just for this small number of trams?
tom
--
We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets
of high powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, and a
whole galaxy of multi colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers... and
also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw
ether and two dozen amyls. Not that we needed all this for the trip,
but once you get locked in a serious drug collection, the tendency is
to push it as far as you can. -- Hunter S. Thompson, 'Fear and loathing
in Las Vegas'
Arthur Figgis
> Does it really make sense to have a dedicated maintenance facility just
> for this one tram?
Given that a passing loop is apparently one of the main reasons for the
project, I suspect there may be more than one tram :)
D7666
> > Does it really make sense to have a dedicated maintenance facility just
> > for this one tram?
> Given that a passing loop is apparently one of the main reasons for the
> project, I suspect there may be more than one tram :)
;o)
I restate my suggestion the depot *is* the passing loop in a shed.
Less pointwork needed. If VER can do it, so can the Hertfordshire
Interurban Electric Tramcar Company.
--
Nick
Peter Masson
"Tom Anderson" <tw...@urchin.earth.li> wrote
>
> Does it really make sense to have a dedicated maintenance facility just
> for this one tram? Or when we say 'depot', do we mean 'somewhere to sleep
> at night plus somewhere for light maintenance eg changing the light
> bulbs', with heavy work being done at an existing major depot reached by
> rail or low-loader?
>
We have the precedent of the Stourbridge PPMs, which have their own little
shed at the Junction. For that matter, Waterloo (W&C) manages all the
maintenance for the W&C trains, except when, after around 15 years, they had
to be craned out and taken away for overhaul. And Ryde shed copes with
maintaining the 70-year-old Island Line stock.
Peter
Tom Anderson
Could it also be one of the stations?
tom
--
KEEP CALM and CARRY ON
Paul
toWould save on the cost of a bus shelter at least! What has it come
to when such penny pinching measures are required?
Tom Anderson
Waterloo and Ryde lack rail connections - or easy low-loader access - to
the rest of the network, so there, sending trains away for regular work
would be exorbitantly expensive, hence having their own little heavy
workshops makes sense.
I'm afraid i'm not familiar with Stourbridge, its trains, or its acronyms.
Although on googling, i find this is one of those clever Parry People
Mover things. My questions there are (a) is all maintenance handled at the
local depot, or do they ever go elsewhere, (b) are the vehicles so
different to normal trains that there would be no cost saving in
co-locating their workshop with a normal train depot and (c) is this at
all an artifact of this being a bit of an experimental pilot scheme?
D7666
> >> Given that a passing loop is apparently one of the main reasons for the
> >> project, I suspect there may be more than one tram :)
> > I restate my suggestion the depot *is* the passing loop in a shed. Less
> > pointwork needed. If VER can do it, so can the Hertfordshire Interurban
> > Electric Tramcar Company.
> Could it also be one of the stations?
I did in fact suggest that upthread.
--
Nick
Tom Anderson
Your ideas are intriguing to me and i wish to subscribe to your RSS feed.
tom
--
Glass of water, glass of orange juice, cup of coffee, a spell on the
toilet (Guinness hangovers only), back to bed for a good cry. Fried
breakfast later. -- susumu, on curing hangovers
Johannes Picht
D7666 wrote:
>
> It is about the 42nd time I've mentioned Avanto in various thread in
> this forum over recent years, yet every new thread about tram/trains
> trots out the same uninformed drivel about perceived 25 kV / 750 V
> trams not exisitng, need to re-wire 25 kV to 750 V etc, when they do
> exist and are well proven. There are even electro-diesel options
> although not sure if any of those have actually been built yet.
>
You can go to Alstom, last type on the following page:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/list/germany/germany_rbk.html
Cheers,
Johannes.
Zen83237
"Arthur Figgis" <afi...@example.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:OK2dnZfzXqG9BGvX...@brightview.co.uk...
Sorry what project. Watford needs another expensive talking shop like a hole
in the head.
Kevin
DW downunder
"Tom Anderson" <tw...@urchin.earth.li> wrote in message
news:alpine.DEB.1.10.0...@urchin.earth.li...
> On Sun, 8 Nov 2009, Peter Masson wrote:
>
>> "Tom Anderson" <tw...@urchin.earth.li> wrote
>>
>>> Does it really make sense to have a dedicated maintenance facility just
>>> for
>>> this one tram? Or when we say 'depot', do we mean 'somewhere to sleep at
>>> night plus somewhere for light maintenance eg changing the light bulbs',
>>> with heavy work being done at an existing major depot reached by rail or
>>> low-loader?
>>
>> We have the precedent of the Stourbridge PPMs, which have their own
>> little shed at the Junction. For that matter, Waterloo (W&C) manages all
>> the maintenance for the W&C trains, except when, after around 15 years,
>> they had to be craned out and taken away for overhaul. And Ryde shed
>> copes with maintaining the 70-year-old Island Line stock.
>
> Waterloo and Ryde lack rail connections - or easy low-loader access - to
> the rest of the network, so there, sending trains away for regular work
> would be exorbitantly expensive, hence having their own little heavy
> workshops makes sense.
>
> I'm afraid i'm not familiar with Stourbridge, its trains, or its acronyms.
> Although on googling, i find this is one of those clever Parry People
> Mover things. My questions there are (a) is all maintenance handled at the
> local depot, or do they ever go elsewhere,
They seem to go back to Parry for warranty "adjustments", but AIUI
refuelling and minor servicing do occur at their little shed.
(b) are the vehicles so
> different to normal trains that there would be no cost saving in
> co-locating their workshop with a normal train depot
Probably, more to the point, as the cars do not conform AIUI to railway
vehicle standards, they cannot be operated as a normal working over the
network. Access to the mainline is indirect.
The design of several aspects of the vehicles, especially the electrics, was
changed to conform to rail industry practice rather than bus industry
practice - so that attention could be given if needed at rail depots.
and (c) is this at
> all an artifact of this being a bit of an experimental pilot scheme?
In part, yes.
>
> tom
>
> --
> KEEP CALM and CARRY ON
DW downunder
burkey
Details at :- http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/open/2010-05/
Burkey
Peter Lawrence
Thanks. However my computer tells me the consultation pdf is damaged.
Has anyone else met this problem?
--
Peter Lawrence
Bruce
No, it worked fine for me. I use Adobe Reader 9.1.0.
MIG
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 12:32:06 -0800 (PST), burkey
>
> >Consultation on the Abbey Line tram-trains has now started.
>
>
> Thanks. However my computer tells me the consultation pdf is damaged.
> Has anyone else met this problem?
Mine tells me it's in a newer version that may not display correctly
(although it looks fine at a glance). I think by default it's using
Acrobat 7.0 rather than the latest Acrobat Reader.
Could probably save it and get the latest reader and open it from
that, if necessary.
EE507
> Consultation on the Abbey Line tram-trains has now started.
>
> Details at :-http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/open/2010-05/
Excellent. I shall be pressing for Bistrotrams at the earliest
opportunity.
http://www.rheinbahn.de/SiteCollectionImages/bistro2_klein.jpg
lonelytraveller
> 7) extensions would of course be on County Councillors' minds, subject as
> always to business case and expenditure priorities.
>
> DW down under
What about a diveunder under the mainline at watford junction, and
then taking over the disused rickmansworth branch, and thence to
chalfont & latimer - to take over the chesham branch of the met?
DW downunder
"lonelytraveller" <nospam_lonelyt...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in
message
news:259a72bb-9c65-45a6...@a15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Been threaded at ukr already. Answer - cost.
DW
Basil Jet
>
> What about a diveunder under the mainline at watford junction, and
> then taking over the disused rickmansworth branch, and thence to
> chalfont & latimer - to take over the chesham branch of the met?
Why on earth do that? It's a tram - it doesn't have the same constraints on
gradient and curvature as a train. If you're going to extend it in what is
largely countryside, you can put it pretty much anywhere, and former railway
alignments are not much more useful than anywhere else. Extending the other
end to Redbourn, Luton Airport Parkway and Luton Airport Terminal is the
same distance as your proposal, probably cheaper and about a million times
more useful.
--
We are the Strasbourg. Referendum is futile.
Jamie Thompson
wrote:
I'd argue that extending to Hatfield Station via the Galleria would be
more useful than Luton. I don't like the idea of on-street extensions
though. The line is too important as a part of a potential orbital
route. Slow all-stops tram services will make end-to-end journey times
far too long.
By all means run trams on it /now/ to build up ridership to the point
building up the infrastructure can be justified, but the end state
needs to be the return of heavy rail catering to end-to-end fast
services. I do wish there was a handy old flyunder already south of WJ
though.
Jeremy Parker
"lonelytraveller" <nospam_lonelyt...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote
[snip]
> What about a diveunder under the mainline at watford junction, and
> then taking over the disused rickmansworth branch, and thence to
> chalfont & latimer - to take over the chesham branch of the met?
There isn't any disused Rickmansworth branch any more. All there are
nowadays is two routes very much NOT disused, the canal towpath, and
the Ebury Way. You would be about equally unpopular trying to take
over either one.
By far the most popular project that the National Lottery's
Millennium Fund ever financed was the National Cycle Network. If
you try to destroy it, you will not be popular.
Jeremy Parker
Jamie Thompson
wrote:
> "lonelytraveller" <nospam_lonelytraveller_nos...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote
Quite.
I figured more along the lines of using spare capacity on the Watford
branch of the Met myself.
Ian
"EE507" <ee...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:17cdb990-4e66-427f...@s3g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
http://www.rheinbahn.de/SiteCollectionImages/bistro2_klein.jpg
Something similar would be a good thing, between Gosport and Fareham.
Oh, wait......
Graeme
"Ian" <i...@henden.co.uk> wrote:
>
> "EE507" <ee...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:17cdb990-4e66-427f...@s3g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 4, 8:32 pm, burkey <johnnyburk...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Consultation on the Abbey Line tram-trains has now started.
> >
> > Details at :-http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/open/2010-05/
>
> Excellent. I shall be pressing for Bistrotrams at the earliest
> opportunity.
Why do I keep reading that as Bistotrams? <insert comments about gravy trains
here>
--
Graeme Wall
This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at <www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>
Photo galleries at <http://graeme-wall.fotopic.net/>