New York state route suffix system
H.B. Elkins
On my recent trip, I saw a number of them for NY 17 and a few for other roads.
What's the logic or rationale behind them?
I'm familiar only with the directional suffixes (E, W, N and S for the US
routes) along with A for alternate and B for business.
Not sure what to make of routes like "17K" or "17M" which I saw in New York.
--
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Nathan Perry
H.B. Elkins <hbel...@mis.net.restrictorplate> wrote:
> What's the story behind the suffix system for New York state routes?
>
> On my recent trip, I saw a number of them for NY 17 and a few for other roads.
> What's the logic or rationale behind them?
>
> I'm familiar only with the directional suffixes (E, W, N and S for the US
> routes) along with A for alternate and B for business.
>
> Not sure what to make of routes like "17K" or "17M" which I saw in New York.
Originally, they were applied sequentially; that is, there was
everything from a 17A through 17M (though whether all existed at any
single time I'm not certain). Similarly, there was a 9A through 9R at
one point or another (except for NY 9E, which was once a US route
counterpart to US 9W, and of course no 9-eye or 9-oh).
They were assigned more or less in order from east to west (along NY 17)
or south to north (along US 9). Other routes that had/have strings of
suffixes are US 11, NY 18 and NY 31. These suffixes have no meaning
other than being sequential.
Some route suffixes are not parts of chains and do have directional
meanings, like NY 28N, a north loop off of NY 28. An interesting case is
NY 5, which has both a directional suffixed alternate (NY 5S) and a
small chain of suffixes (only 5A and 5B remain). On the other hand, NY
9N had no directional meaning; it's just the one in between NY 9M and NY
9P.
A lot of the xxA routes are "only children" and many function just like
Alternate routes, but it's just a coincidence that the first letter of
the alphabet happens to stand for Alternate. But then there's US 20A,
where the A does mean Alternate per AASHTO. And take NY 62A, which used
to mean "first sufffixed route off of US 62," and is now US 62A, which
means "US 62 Alternate."
Got it? :-)
H.B. Elkins
>
>In article <go3sj...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> H.B. Elkins <hbel...@mis.net.restrictorplate> wrote:
>Originally, they were applied sequentially; that is, there was
>everything from a 17A through 17M (though whether all existed at any
>single time I'm not certain). Similarly, there was a 9A through 9R at
>one point or another (except for NY 9E, which was once a US route
>counterpart to US 9W, and of course no 9-eye or 9-oh).
I thought perhaps something similar, although I wondered if maybe 17M had that
suffix because it runs through Middletown. I also presume that in some of these
cases, the suffixed routes are old surface routings of NY 17 and were assigned
suffixed numbers when the NY 17 freeway was built. 17M appears to be the old
routing of 17 through Middletown, although I certainly don't know that for sure.
>Some route suffixes are not parts of chains and do have directional
>meanings, like NY 28N, a north loop off of NY 28. An interesting case is
>NY 5, which has both a directional suffixed alternate (NY 5S) and a
>small chain of suffixes (only 5A and 5B remain). On the other hand, NY
>9N had no directional meaning; it's just the one in between NY 9M and NY
>9P.
I noted a NY 6N, branching off US 6. Not sure what it hooks up with on the other
end.
Nathan Perry
H.B. Elkins <hbel...@mis.net.restrictorplate> wrote:
> I thought perhaps something similar, although I wondered if maybe 17M had
> that
> suffix because it runs through Middletown. I also presume that in some of
> these
> cases, the suffixed routes are old surface routings of NY 17 and were
> assigned
> suffixed numbers when the NY 17 freeway was built. 17M appears to be the old
> routing of 17 through Middletown, although I certainly don't know that for
> sure.
It's true that 17M is something of a special case, and yes it was the
former NY 17, at least approximately. Still, I think there was a 17L
somewhere and so M was the next available suffix. NY 17C also occupies
the old NY 17 alignment, but only west of Endicott. From there east, it
existed concurrently with Old NY 17 across the river, and that's true of
all the other former suffixed routes as well. In some case the NY 17
freeway actually follows the path of these old suffix routes, like west
of Elmira (NY 17E) and through Steuben County (NY 17G or H I believe).
In the first example, old NY 17 became NY 352.
Farther west, old NY 17 became NY 417, and in the Steuben County example
it strays well south of the current expressway. That shows another way
that NYSDOT uses route numbering to indicate association with other
routes: by using a numeric prefix. As another example, NY 415 follows
old US 15.
> I noted a NY 6N, branching off US 6. Not sure what it hooks up with on the
> other
> end.
It's a loop back to US 6, and many many years ago was itself US 6.
H.B. Elkins
>> I noted a NY 6N, branching off US 6. Not sure what it hooks up with on the
>> other
>> end.
>
>It's a loop back to US 6, and many many years ago was itself US 6.
I only saw one set of signs at one intersection. The other junction must be
unsigned.
Otto Yamamoto
H.B. Elkins <hbel...@mis.net.restrictorplate> wrote:
It comes back into US 6 just east of Mahopac proper and isn't signed eastbound.
--
Otto Yamamoto ECHM
Douglas Kerr
> In article <go40cl01...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> H.B. Elkins <hbelk...@mis.net.restrictorplate> wrote:
>
> > I thought perhaps something similar, although I wondered if maybe 17M had
> > that
> > suffix because it runs through Middletown. I also presume that in some of
> > these
> > cases, the suffixed routes are old surface routings of NY 17 and were
> > assigned
> > suffixed numbers when the NY 17 freeway was built. 17M appears to be the old
> > routing of 17 through Middletown, although I certainly don't know that for
> > sure.
>
> It's true that 17M is something of a special case, and yes it was the
> former NY 17, at least approximately. Still, I think there was a 17L
> somewhere and so M was the next available suffix. NY 17C also occupies
> the old NY 17 alignment, but only west of Endicott. From there east, it
> existed concurrently with Old NY 17 across the river, and that's true of
> all the other former suffixed routes as well. In some case the NY 17
> freeway actually follows the path of these old suffix routes, like west
> of Elmira (NY 17E) and through Steuben County (NY 17G or H I believe).
> In the first example, old NY 17 became NY 352.
It is possible too that NY 17M was selected as it is the old route to
Middletown. I've also been speculating what will happen to the
orphaned NY 17 suffixed routes (NY 17B, NY 17C and NY 17K) after I-86
is completed. As much as I'd like to see numbers like 47 and 57 be re-
used, I am suspecting more and more that NYSDOT will keep the
aforementioned NY 17x's the same designation.
H.B. Elkins
>It is possible too that NY 17M was selected as it is the old route to
>Middletown. I've also been speculating what will happen to the
>orphaned NY 17 suffixed routes (NY 17B, NY 17C and NY 17K) after I-86
>is completed. As much as I'd like to see numbers like 47 and 57 be re-
>used, I am suspecting more and more that NYSDOT will keep the
>aforementioned NY 17x's the same designation.
Since they've kept NY 17 signed with I-86 out in the far western part of the
state, when the state route could have been truncated at some point eastward,
maybe they'll keep the dual designation and the routes won't be orphaned.
Ralph Herman
wrote:
I think NY 17 will be eliminated in a few years when I-86 is
completely posted on the Southern Tier Expressway and Quickway, the
cost of maintaining extra NY 17 markers for the duplicate I-86 routing
is a cost that can't really be justified. I also believe in Orange
County the Orange Tpke. (current North/South NY 17) will be remarked
NY 32. NY 32 will be extended south from current NY 17/NY 32 junction
at Harriman to the Thruway interchange at Suffern.
I would also suspect NYSDOT will leave the NY 17X orphans alone, only
roadgeeks would notice.
Ralph
cap...@gmail.com
NYSDOT is already starting to remove the NY 17 signs.
As part of project upgrading, any NY 17 signs along the interchange
ramps and approaches will be removed and not replaced.
Ground mount signs on I-86 itself will still have NY 17 signs for the
time being.
However, overhead signs will only reference I-86.
Southern Tier Expressway signs will also be removed.
Another note is that NY 15 now ends at I-390 outside Wayland in
Steuben County.
NYSDOT will be removing all NY 15 references from I-390 and I-86 as
well.
Otto Yamamoto
Ralph Herman <rlah...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I also believe in Orange
> County the Orange Tpke. (current North/South NY 17) will be remarked
> NY 32. NY 32 will be extended south from current NY 17/NY 32 junction
> at Harriman to the Thruway interchange at Suffern.
That's only partially the Orange Turnpike. The Turnpike turns off of NY 17 at Southfields and follows Orange County 19 into Monroe(almost). There's also the possibility that NYSDOT may retain the 17 number on that section of road-there's really no reason not to.
--
Otto Yamamoto ECHM
true...@yahoo.com
> On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:18:29 -0800 (PST)
>
They could also just re-route 17, up 17M as it was the old 17. It'd
give them more of a reason to keep the 17 designation and eliminate a
suffixed route in the process. It'd also make its E-W signing still
make sense.
Otto Yamamoto
true...@yahoo.com wrote:
> They could also just re-route 17, up 17M as it was the old 17. It'd
> give them more of a reason to keep the 17 designation and eliminate a
> suffixed route in the process. It'd also make its E-W signing still
> make sense.
I honestly don't expect NYSDOT to do any more than the minimum vis a vis route numbering, honestly. NY 17's children won't go away, which isn't really all that bad a thing; as that's how the roads are known by the locals, anyway. Introducing a new numbering scheme would probably confuse everyone.
As far as directional designation-NY 17 is only posted East-West west of Harriman: The old 4-lane portion is actually posted North-South, though the reference numbers advance backward; as if it were a contination of the east-west route.
--
Otto Yamamoto ECHM
Nathan Perry
<c8239924-375c-444f...@13g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
cap...@gmail.com wrote:
> Another note is that NY 15 now ends at I-390 outside Wayland in
> Steuben County.
> NYSDOT will be removing all NY 15 references from I-390 and I-86 as
> well.
Makes since, since that was only for continuity to US 15, and that's
becoming I-99, and US 15 will be truncated to Williamsport, maybe?
After all, the NY 15/I-390 multiplex "doesn't really exist" anyway.
Douglas Kerr
If I am not mistaken, NY 32 once ended where the NY 17/NY 17M junction
in Harriman is now. However, as much as I'd like to see things
differently, I suspect that NY 17 and NY 32 will end at each other
where they meet Future I-86 today. It may not be a bad idea to
renumber NY 17M as NY 17 (and bring NY 32 back to its aforementioned
former southern terminus), but anything beyond that I don't think is
even a slight option except for some small route number changes in
Orange County (like extending NY 302 down NY 17M's routing to
Middletown).
As for orphans, as it stands now, NY 17A and NY 17M would still be
connected to NY 17 after truncation.
Michael Moroney
>In article <go40c...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> H.B. Elkins <hbel...@mis.net.restrictorplate> wrote:
>> I thought perhaps something similar, although I wondered if maybe 17M had
>> that
>> suffix because it runs through Middletown. I also presume that in some of
>> these
>> cases, the suffixed routes are old surface routings of NY 17 and were
>> assigned
>> suffixed numbers when the NY 17 freeway was built. 17M appears to be the old
>> routing of 17 through Middletown, although I certainly don't know that for
>> sure.
>It's true that 17M is something of a special case, and yes it was the
>former NY 17, at least approximately. Still, I think there was a 17L
>somewhere and so M was the next available suffix. NY 17C also occupies
>the old NY 17 alignment, but only west of Endicott. From there east, it
>existed concurrently with Old NY 17 across the river, and that's true of
>all the other former suffixed routes as well. In some case the NY 17
>freeway actually follows the path of these old suffix routes, like west
>of Elmira (NY 17E) and through Steuben County (NY 17G or H I believe).
>In the first example, old NY 17 became NY 352.
For whatever it's worth, the Wikipedia articles on NY 17 and its suffixed
routes don't mention any 17L, and claims that the "M" was chosen because
old 17 was the Middletown business route, thus got the number 17M when
the Middletown Bypass section of the Quickway opened.
As always with Wikipedia, who knows how accurate this is.
cap...@gmail.com
> Makes since, since that was only for continuity to US 15, and that's
> becoming I-99, and US 15 will be truncated to Williamsport, maybe?
>
> After all, the NY 15/I-390 multiplex "doesn't really exist" anyway.
NYSDOT is already gearing up for I-99.
New reference markers along US 15 read "99I"
I don't know what would happen to US 15 after I-99 comes into NY.
Rob Adams
It was signed into the 80's or 90's (even sidewalk markers on NY 6N
with an END). Sadly that was before I began taking snaps, so no proof.