Boston: A Tourist's Eye View
John Hascall
[all previous comments on Boston transportation snipped]
Having just returned from a 2.5 weeks out east
I thought I'd share my views on Boston, NYC,
and WDC. Most of the time was spent in Boston,
but here are a couple of side comments first.
NYC: only spent a day there, traveled by subway/train(NJT) from
Trump Tower (just south of Central Park) all the way to
Summit NJ (where we thankfully ditched the car) in less
than an hour -- I believe this to be somewhat greater
than the apocryphal "3 miles/hour" oft cited here.
Both were clean and comfortable. The acceleration of
the NYC subway was not something I expected, we fairly
rocketed from one station to another. Also, there was
quite a good musician in the station, but we didn't
get to listen for long. The decor of the stations
is a wonderful touch. The number of people in
Penn Station was incredible. Forgot to get an
extra token as a souvenir :(
The traffic in NYC was violent. Only 3 modes were
observed. Stopped and seething; accelerator to floor;
brake to floor; [repeat]. I've been to pretty much
every large city in the country, this is the *one*
I simply refuse to drive in.
WDC: Stayed a short walk from the Ballston subway station.
This was incredibly convenient. Never waited more than
5 minutes for a train. Getting to the motel by car
was, by contrast, a rather miserable experience.
The subway system was, however, apparently designed by
somebody with WAY TOO MUCH fascination for Logan's Run :)
Thumbs up for the ticket system.
With the exception of a couple of sour, just doing the
minimal, going through the motions, food industry workers
in WDC, everyone we met in all the cities was very
friendly (special thumbs up to Uncle Julio's in Ballston).
The subway was generally quite busy. The careful eye
noticed that when busy about 90% of the women were seated
and about 90% of the men standing. Quiet politeness was
the rule. A couple of times some people (generally youths)
rudely pushed on before others had exited and they were
verbally reminded how to by polite be other passengers).
Boston: We stayed Downtown this trip (Swissotel just off
of Washington). Like WDC getting there by car was
not fun. It stayed parked the entire week (@ $18/day)
and everything was close enough at hand that we just
walked (I have used the subway on previous trips).
Downtown Crossing was very active during the day
and pretty active up until about 7pm or so.
Quincy Market was busy as late as we ever stayed.
For the 4 days I was busy with work, my wife and
3yr old son wandered around, and never felt at all
unsafe. My wife even reported that drivers, yes,
Boston drivers, were stopping, and even in one case
stopped the other lanes of traffic with advanced
horn technique :) so she could cross with the
stroller.
That City Hall thing is a complete eyesore.
Unbelievably ugly in its own right, how it could
pay less attention to its surroundings is beyond
me. Truly ghastly.
I can see no reason to build a pedestrian overpass
to FH/QM (as suggested here). I found Boston to
be VERY walkable as is because of the narrow, twisty
streets and the large number of pedestrians.
The previous suggestion that a bunch of road projects
(a few hundred billion worth or so) will somehow
improve the situation seems improbable (unless you
define "improve" as driving parking rates up to, say,
$40-$50/day).
Other asides:
The difference between Detroit and Windsor was shocking.
Completely night and day. Surely there is a lesson to
be learned there.
Thumbs up to the following "trends?" in rest areas:
a) playgrounds
b) atms and fax machines (can the internet be far behind?)
c) vending (actual food like at many tollway service plazas
would be even better)
d) location near a nature trail or semi-scenic site
and a couple of thoughts:
a) would not lodging be a natural addition to some
service plazas?
b) and why not site truck weigh stations there too?
c) thanks to gov't vending machines for giving SBA
dollars as change, much better than fluttering
bills to hand to toll collectors :)
No vacation of ours is "official" unless it involves:
1) getting snowed on (an unanticipated night in the unlikely
location of an OTB hotel in Vernon Downs, NY)
AND
2) having car trouble (jury rigging the distributor rotor/cap
as evening waned at some nondescript BG pkwy offramp in KY)
Boy, nothing like the "convenience" of car travel... :(
John
PS, on the unlikely chance that he should ever see this, my profound
thanks to the KY gentleman who stopped and kept us company
--
John Hascall, Software Engr. Shut up, be happy. The conveniences you
ISU Computation Center demanded are now mandatory. -Jello Biafra
mailto:jo...@iastate.edu
http://www.cc.iastate.edu/staff/systems/john/welcome.html <-- the usual crud
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <5hmv3m$173$1...@news.iastate.edu>, jo...@iastate.edu (John
Hascall) wrote:
> [all previous comments on Boston transportation snipped]
>
> Having just returned from a 2.5 weeks out east
> I thought I'd share my views on Boston, NYC,
> and WDC. Most of the time was spent in Boston,
> but here are a couple of side comments first.
>
> NYC: only spent a day there, traveled by subway/train(NJT) from
> Trump Tower (just south of Central Park) all the way to
> Summit NJ (where we thankfully ditched the car) in less
> than an hour -- I believe this to be somewhat greater
> than the apocryphal "3 miles/hour" oft cited here.
Greatest system in the World. Happy you tested the head-in-ass hype
negative hype drivel about it. The sytstem really works. Bet your kid fell
in love with it. Most kids do, 'cause the tend to have more sense than we
do.
>
> Both were clean and comfortable. The acceleration of
> the NYC subway was not something I expected, we fairly
> rocketed from one station to another
It's pure Buck Rogers/Star Wars, depending your generation. Bet your kid
loved that too. But then. what's a kid, but the purveyor of uncorrupted
truth?
> Also, there was
> quite a good musician in the station, but we didn't
> get to listen for long.
Hope you gave him some money to keep him/her off EVIL welfare, and with a
receipt for tax purpose (greedy rip-off giving):-)
> The decor of the stations
> is a wonderful touch. The number of people in
> Penn Station was incredible. Forgot to get an
> extra token as a souvenir :(
>
> The traffic in NYC was violent. Only 3 modes were
> observed. Stopped and seething; accelerator to floor;
> brake to floor; [repeat]. I've been to pretty much
> every large city in the country, this is the *one*
> I simply refuse to drive in.
Evidence of good Midwestern intellegence. Check out the license plates?
Few from NYC (except cabs and service vehicles).
>
> WDC: Stayed a short walk from the Ballston subway station.
> This was incredibly convenient. Never waited more than
> 5 minutes for a train. Getting to the motel by car
> was, by contrast, a rather miserable experience.
> The subway system was, however, apparently designed by
> somebody with WAY TOO MUCH fascination for Logan's Run :)
Don't understand. Can you fill me in?
>
> Thumbs up for the ticket system.
It works very well, IMHO.
>
> With the exception of a couple of sour, just doing the
> minimal, going through the motions, food industry workers
> in WDC,
Are these Wal-Mart employess clones any different any where else?
> everyone we met in all the cities was very
> friendly (special thumbs up to Uncle Julio's in Ballston).
>
> The subway was generally quite busy. The careful eye
> noticed that when busy about 90% of the women were seated
> and about 90% of the men standing. Quiet politeness was
> the rule. A couple of times some people (generally youths)
> rudely pushed on before others had exited and they were
> verbally reminded how to by polite be other passengers).
That's what a "culture", once called simply called "civilization" is all
about, but then your were encountering people who know how to maintain
their unthreatend "individual" dignity in a collectively civilized
situation. You can't find this in the suurbs, but CAN find it also in
RURAL America.
>
> Boston: We stayed Downtown this trip (Swissotel just off
> of Washington). Like WDC getting there by car was
> not fun. It stayed parked the entire week (@ $18/day)
> and everything was close enough at hand that we just
> walked (I have used the subway on previous trips).
Don't guess you'll drive next time. Huh?
>
> Downtown Crossing was very active during the day
> and pretty active up until about 7pm or so.
> Quincy Market was busy as late as we ever stayed.
> For the 4 days I was busy with work, my wife and
> 3yr old son wandered around, and never felt at all
> unsafe.
No reason to. Isn't that the ultimate in cool?
> My wife even reported that drivers, yes,
> Boston drivers, were stopping, and even in one case
> stopped the other lanes of traffic with advanced
> horn technique :) so she could cross with the
> stroller.
Nothing surprising about this. it's been going on for 40 years (the length
of my experience). Boston & Rome get bum raps about drivers. In either
city, if you don't waste the time of the drivers with hesitation by simply
stepping out in front of them, they'll always stop. I guarentee. It's only
wimps who confuse drivers with their indecision who can't get across the
street.
>
> That City Hall thing is a complete eyesore.
> Unbelievably ugly in its own right, how it could
> pay less attention to its surroundings is beyond
> me. Truly ghastly
You sure got that one right.
>
> I can see no reason to build a pedestrian overpass
> to FH/QM (as suggested here). I found Boston to
> be VERY walkable as is because of the narrow, twisty
> streets and the large number of pedestrians.
You got that one right too. Bostonians critical of the walkability of
their city have not, perhaps, tried to walk elsewhere. Pedestrian
overpasses are conceptually, stupid unless it's a freeway.
>
> The previous suggestion that a bunch of road projects
> (a few hundred billion worth or so) will somehow
> improve the situation seems improbable (unless you
> define "improve" as driving parking rates up to, say,
> $40-$50/day).
You're speaking the truth here. Boston Transpo in any form is simply "not
broke", and what the hells' all the hoopla about improving one of the few
"working" cities in the States, anyway?
>
>
> Other asides:
> The difference between Detroit and Windsor was shocking.
> Completely night and day. Surely there is a lesson to
> be learned there.
>
> Thumbs up to the following "trends?" in rest areas:
> a) playgrounds
> b) atms and fax machines (can the internet be far behind?)
> c) vending (actual food like at many tollway service plazas
> would be even better)
> d) location near a nature trail or semi-scenic site
> and a couple of thoughts:
> a) would not lodging be a natural addition to some
> service plazas?
> b) and why not site truck weigh stations there too?
> c) thanks to gov't vending machines for giving SBA
> dollars as change, much better than fluttering
> bills to hand to toll collectors :)
>
> No vacation of ours is "official" unless it involves:
> 1) getting snowed on (an unanticipated night in the unlikely
> location of an OTB hotel in Vernon Downs, NY)
> AND
> 2) having car trouble (jury rigging the distributor rotor/cap
> as evening waned at some nondescript BG pkwy offramp in KY)
> Boy, nothing like the "convenience" of car travel... :(
Even my "Steam Era" Dad had the good sense to give it up in the 1950's!
>
> John
> PS, on the unlikely chance that he should ever see this, my profound
> thanks to the KY gentleman who stopped and kept us company
If you can put that in STATISTICAL form, in may be palitable to others:-)
nelson
ab...@tiac.net
>In article <5hmv3m$173$1...@news.iastate.edu>, jo...@iastate.edu (John
>Hascall) wrote:
>
>>
>> WDC: Stayed a short walk from the Ballston subway station.
>> This was incredibly convenient. Never waited more than
>> 5 minutes for a train. Getting to the motel by car
>> was, by contrast, a rather miserable experience.
>> The subway system was, however, apparently designed by
>> somebody with WAY TOO MUCH fascination for Logan's Run :)
>
>Don't understand. Can you fill me in?
If I remember correctly, Logan's Run is a sci-fi movie from the mid -
late 70's. First time I used the WDC Metro, I too was struck by the
hi-tech/sci fi quality of the stations. Kinda neat.
>>
>> The subway was generally quite busy. The careful eye
>> noticed that when busy about 90% of the women were seated
>> and about 90% of the men standing. Quiet politeness was
>> the rule. A couple of times some people (generally youths)
>> rudely pushed on before others had exited and they were
>> verbally reminded how to by polite be other passengers).
>
>That's what a "culture", once called simply called "civilization" is all
>about, but then your were encountering people who know how to maintain
>their unthreatend "individual" dignity in a collectively civilized
>situation. You can't find this in the suurbs, but CAN find it also in
>RURAL America.
Here here. I have very rarely ever found urban dwellers to be "rude",
"cold" or "insensitive" as often they are stereotyped all too often.
I think some folks mistake the assertiveness that comes with city
living with being impolite.
>
>> My wife even reported that drivers, yes,
>> Boston drivers, were stopping, and even in one case
>> stopped the other lanes of traffic with advanced
>> horn technique :) so she could cross with the
>> stroller.
>
>Nothing surprising about this. it's been going on for 40 years (the length
>of my experience). Boston & Rome get bum raps about drivers. In either
>city, if you don't waste the time of the drivers with hesitation by simply
>stepping out in front of them, they'll always stop. I guarentee. It's only
>wimps who confuse drivers with their indecision who can't get across the
>street.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Anecdotally, my parents (who live in
a small steel town in PA) were in Boston to visit over the weekend. By
the Sunday, they too had learned how to cross the streets around here.
Just make sure there is enough room for oncoming traffic to slow down
and step straight into the street w/o hesitation. I've found the same
technique seems to work well in NYC.
Dave Dologite
Allston Brighton CDC
John F. Carr
>Just make sure there is enough room for oncoming traffic to slow down
>and step straight into the street w/o hesitation. I've found the same
>technique seems to work well in NYC.
I've been told by someone who worked and drove there, and verified by
my own experience, that the way to drive in NYC is to accelerate if
pedestrians are in or near the street and the light is green, because if
you hesitate more will follow and the street will be blocked for an
entire light cycle.
Nelson S. Benzing
> On Mon, 31 Mar 1997 08:40:06 -0500, nben...@ix.netcom.com (Nelson S.
> Benzing) wrote:
>
> >In article <5hmv3m$173$1...@news.iastate.edu>, jo...@iastate.edu (John
> >Hascall) wrote:
> >
>
>
> >>
> >> WDC: Stayed a short walk from the Ballston subway station.
> >> This was incredibly convenient. Never waited more than
> >> 5 minutes for a train. Getting to the motel by car
> >> was, by contrast, a rather miserable experience.
> >> The subway system was, however, apparently designed by
> >> somebody with WAY TOO MUCH fascination for Logan's Run :)
> >
> >Don't understand. Can you fill me in?
>
> If I remember correctly, Logan's Run is a sci-fi movie from the mid -
> late 70's. First time I used the WDC Metro, I too was struck by the
> hi-tech/sci fi quality of the stations. Kinda neat.
Sure you were impressed with the D.C. Metro, as was I; it represents the
*post-internal combustion engine era*; it's awesome; humanity can still
build great bridges, viaducts, tunnels, etc. instead of just 90-year-old
wheel-technology wagonpaths such as interstate highways.
>
> >>
> >> The subway was generally quite busy. The careful eye
> >> noticed that when busy about 90% of the women were seated
> >> and about 90% of the men standing. Quiet politeness was
> >> the rule. A couple of times some people (generally youths)
> >> rudely pushed on before others had exited and they were
> >> verbally reminded how to by polite be other passengers).
> >
> >That's what a "culture", once called simply called "civilization" is all
> >about, but then your were encountering people who know how to maintain
> >their unthreatend "individual" dignity in a collectively civilized
> >situation. You can't find this in the suurbs, but CAN find it also in
> >RURAL America.
>
> Here here. I have very rarely ever found urban dwellers to be "rude",
> "cold" or "insensitive" as often they are stereotyped all too often.
> I think some folks mistake the assertiveness that comes with city
> living with being impolite.
Nor have I. They are honest straightforeward real people who don't jerk
you around and who'll tell you "what is" instead of the phony insincere
bullshit you get in the Southeast unless they're rural folk, whom I find
rather cool and totally unappreciated by the GC's of the world who'd turn
them onto mindless fat-assed Barcalounger suburbs.
>
> >> My wife even reported that drivers, yes,
> >> Boston drivers, were stopping, and even in one case
> >> stopped the other lanes of traffic with advanced
> >> horn technique :) so she could cross with the
> >> stroller.
> >
> >Nothing surprising about this. it's been going on for 40 years (the length
> >of my experience). Boston & Rome get bum raps about drivers. In either
> >city, if you don't waste the time of the drivers with hesitation by simply
> >stepping out in front of them, they'll always stop. I guarentee. It's only
> >wimps who confuse drivers with their indecision who can't get across the
> >street.
>
> Thank you, thank you, thank you. Anecdotally, my parents (who live in
> a small steel town in PA) were in Boston to visit over the weekend. By
> the Sunday, they too had learned how to cross the streets around here.
> Just make sure there is enough room for oncoming traffic to slow down
> and step straight into the street w/o hesitation. I've found the same
> technique seems to work well in NYC.
Hey! It worjks all over the world, except in suburbs, where people on foot
are are "intruders". You're absolutely 100% right when engaged in a civic
democratic environments.
Alan Howes
On 31 Mar 1997 00:05:10 GMT, jo...@iastate.edu (John Hascall) posted:
>WDC: Stayed a short walk from the Ballston subway station.
> The subway was generally quite busy. The careful eye
> noticed that when busy about 90% of the women were seated
> and about 90% of the men standing. Quiet politeness was
> the rule.
How quaint! Have to admit you won't see this in London.
--
Alan P Howes, Public Transport Consultant
Alan Howes Associates, Perthshire, Scotland
http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/alanhowes/
alan...@dial.pipex.com
(NB; remove "antispam" when replying)
David J. P. Long - Change '_' in email to '.'
jo...@iastate.edu (John Hascall) wrote:
>
>Boston: We stayed Downtown this trip (Swissotel just off
> That City Hall thing is a complete eyesore.
> Unbelievably ugly in its own right, how it could
> pay less attention to its surroundings is beyond
> me. Truly ghastly.
It is said that the only thig City Hall Plaza needs to complete it's
"image" is a huge portraint of Mao or Lenin.
The plaza, BTW, is slated for redevelopment.
> The previous suggestion that a bunch of road projects
> (a few hundred billion worth or so) will somehow
> improve the situation seems improbable (unless you
> define "improve" as driving parking rates up to, say,
> $40-$50/day).
Well, the surface artery (with walkways and tree-lined medians) that
will replace the elevated artery has the potential to become a real
"boulevard" like Commonwealth Avenue. Hard to put a price tag on the
value of that. Burying the elevated artery beneath the future
boulevard is one obscenely expensive way to get it...
> Thumbs up to the following "trends?" in rest areas:
> a) would not lodging be a natural addition to some
> service plazas?
Blizzard of 78 in New England - People jammed the only HoJo on route
128 since all the cars were stuck inn 4' snowdrifts.
+------/|-------------------------------------------------------+
| | | djl...@magic.mv.com |
| / | djl...@msn.com |
| ( ) http://www.mv.com/ipusers/magic |
+----`--' ------------------------------------------------------+
Steve LaSala
In article <33621727...@news.dial.pipex.com>,
Alan Howes <alan...@dial.pipex.com.antispam> wrote:
>On 31 Mar 1997 00:05:10 GMT, jo...@iastate.edu (John Hascall) posted:
>
>>WDC: Stayed a short walk from the Ballston subway station.
>> The subway was generally quite busy. The careful eye
>> noticed that when busy about 90% of the women were seated
>> and about 90% of the men standing. Quiet politeness was
>> the rule.
>
>How quaint! Have to admit you won't see this in London.
Sorry, but this is one social "nicety" that I can't support any
more. If I'm doing the dishes, making concessions to my wife's career,
and getting up when the baby cries in the middle of the night, I think I
should be allowed to sit down on trains when I am tired.
I do give up my seat to the elderly, the infirm, and those with
awkward packages/small children.
The most ridiculous example of seat-offering I ever saw was when I
took the last seat on a bus and the guy next to me, *WHO HAD A BROKEN LEG
IN A CAST* offered his seat to a perfectly fit and healthy 20-something
woman standing nearby. The message I got was that he'd rather sit next to
her than next to me.
Steve LaSala
Seattle, WA
Exile on Market Street
> [all previous comments on Boston transportation snipped]
>
> Having just returned from a 2.5 weeks out east
> I thought I'd share my views on Boston, NYC,
> and WDC. Most of the time was spent in Boston,
> but here are a couple of side comments first.
Hmph. Went right up the Jersey Turnpike, did you, and bypassed
You-Know-Where? Or was it "went right *down* the Jersey Turnpike, did you,
and missed Exit 4?"
> That City Hall thing is a complete eyesore.
> Unbelievably ugly in its own right, how it could
> pay less attention to its surroundings is beyond
> me. Truly ghastly.
Someone on a.p.u will doubtless correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the
design and siting of Boston City Hall (which IMO has a certain beauty in
its severity) was influenced by the "defensible space" theory, which
accounts for the hidden nature of its entrances and its location on a vast
brick plaza (sculpted from what was once Boston's red-light district).
> Other asides:
> The difference between Detroit and Windsor was shocking.
> Completely night and day. Surely there is a lesson to
> be learned there.
We're still trying to figure out what it is. (ObPlug: _The Origins of the
Urban Crisis_, by Penn history prof [and Detroit native] Thomas Sughrue
[Princeton, 1997], attempts to trace the spectacular rise and sudden fall
of the city as a metropolitan center in light of, among other things, the
persistence of racial prejudice in housing, hiring, and whatever else you
care to mention.)
> Thumbs up to the following "trends?" in rest areas:
[...]
> c) vending (actual food like at many tollway service plazas
> would be even better)
The Interstate Highway Act forbids service plazas on highways built with
Interstate money, which is why the best you can hope for is vending
machines -- unless you're in Massachusetts, where some expressways (built
in the 1950's with state money) do have service plazas.
> a) would not lodging be a natural addition to some
> service plazas?
Actually, it seems like it would -- but I am guessing that since the
original toll expressways were designed to connect (but not enter) large
cities, it was assumed that the travelers would probably end (or interrupt)
their journeys there rather than make an overnight pit stop en route.
__________________________________________________________________________
Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
University Relations, U. of Pennsylvania 215.898.1423/fax 215.898.1203
I speak for myself here, not for Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
"If you have to live with community standards on the Internet, find the
most conservative, obscure place you can in the country and that will be
the standard. Who's going to use that?"
----------Dave Farber (quoted in _The Pennsylvania Gazette_, March 1997)--
John Hascall
Exile on Market Street <smi...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote:
}jo...@iastate.edu (John Hascall) wrote:
}> [all previous comments on Boston transportation snipped]
}> Having just returned from a 2.5 weeks out east
}> I thought I'd share my views on Boston, NYC,
}> and WDC. Most of the time was spent in Boston,
}> but here are a couple of side comments first.
}Hmph. Went right up the Jersey Turnpike, did you, and bypassed
}You-Know-Where? Or was it "went right *down* the Jersey Turnpike, did you,
}and missed Exit 4?"
I'm afraid I don't follow the reference to "You-Know-Where",
but for the record: We took I95 from Mass, through RI,
and Conn and into NY, then we veered inland at I287 (over
the Tappan Zee) and into NJ before stumbling through
a maze of twisty suburbs all alike until finding Summit.
Later, down the NJT towards WDC.
}The Interstate Highway Act forbids service plazas on highways built with
}Interstate money, which is why the best you can hope for is vending
}machines -- unless you're in Massachusetts, where some expressways (built
}in the 1950's with state money) do have service plazas.
Bummer.
}> a) would not lodging be a natural addition to some
}> service plazas?
}Actually, it seems like it would -- but I am guessing that since the
}original toll expressways were designed to connect (but not enter) large
}cities, it was assumed that the travelers would probably end (or interrupt)
}their journeys there rather than make an overnight pit stop en route.
Perhaps you are right, one thing which really stood out on
the NY thruway was the almost complete lack of out-of-state
cars.
John
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <33621727...@news.dial.pipex.com>,
alan...@dial.pipex.com.antispam wrote:
> On 31 Mar 1997 00:05:10 GMT, jo...@iastate.edu (John Hascall) posted:
>
> >WDC: Stayed a short walk from the Ballston subway station.
> > The subway was generally quite busy. The careful eye
> > noticed that when busy about 90% of the women were seated
> > and about 90% of the men standing. Quiet politeness was
> > the rule.
>
> How quaint! Have to admit you won't see this in London.
What's the breakdown for purple vs. orange hair?:-)
Nelson
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <5hs29i$o...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>, las...@u.washington.edu
(Steve LaSala) wrote:
> In article <33621727...@news.dial.pipex.com>,
> Alan Howes <alan...@dial.pipex.com.antispam> wrote:
> >On 31 Mar 1997 00:05:10 GMT, jo...@iastate.edu (John Hascall) posted:
> >
> >>WDC: Stayed a short walk from the Ballston subway station.
> >> The subway was generally quite busy. The careful eye
> >> noticed that when busy about 90% of the women were seated
> >> and about 90% of the men standing. Quiet politeness was
> >> the rule.
> >
> >How quaint! Have to admit you won't see this in London.
>
> Sorry, but this is one social "nicety" that I can't support any
> more. If I'm doing the dishes, making concessions to my wife's career,
> and getting up when the baby cries in the middle of the night, I think I
> should be allowed to sit down on trains when I am tired.
>
> I do give up my seat to the elderly, the infirm, and those with
> awkward packages/small children.
>
> The most ridiculous example of seat-offering I ever saw was when I
> took the last seat on a bus and the guy next to me, *WHO HAD A BROKEN LEG
> IN A CAST* offered his seat to a perfectly fit and healthy 20-something
> woman standing nearby. The message I got was that he'd rather sit next to
> her than next to me.
Makes sense. Was she foxy?
Nelson
>
> Steve LaSala
> Seattle, WA
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <334227e6....@news.mv.com>, djlong@magic_mv.com (David J.
P. Long - Change '_' in email to '.') wrote:
> jo...@iastate.edu (John Hascall) wrote:
>
> >
> >Boston: We stayed Downtown this trip (Swissotel just off
>
> > That City Hall thing is a complete eyesore.
> > Unbelievably ugly in its own right, how it could
> > pay less attention to its surroundings is beyond
> > me. Truly ghastly.
>
> It is said that the only thig City Hall Plaza needs to complete it's
> "image" is a huge portraint of Mao or Lenin.
>
> The plaza, BTW, is slated for redevelopment.
>
> > The previous suggestion that a bunch of road projects
> > (a few hundred billion worth or so) will somehow
> > improve the situation seems improbable (unless you
> > define "improve" as driving parking rates up to, say,
> > $40-$50/day).
>
> Well, the surface artery (with walkways and tree-lined medians) that
> will replace the elevated artery has the potential to become a real
> "boulevard" like Commonwealth Avenue. Hard to put a price tag on the
> value of that. Burying the elevated artery beneath the future
> boulevard is one obscenely expensive way to get it...
There was something wonderfully wicked about the elevated Central Artery
that I'll miss. I think it's removal is as much an ill-thought out
"perceived problem" as was Scolly Square, destroyed to make the
Governement Center Plaza. Analogies to Red Square are quite appropriate.
But then, mistakes have been made in urban development over the centuries
and Government Center will not continue to be what it is today. It's a
lesson that's been learned - hence it has value. It will be tommorrow's
history. Cities are about the process of transformation that the burbs can
never be.
>
> > Thumbs up to the following "trends?" in rest areas:
> > a) would not lodging be a natural addition to some
> > service plazas?
>
> Blizzard of 78 in New England - People jammed the only HoJo on route
> 128 since all the cars were stuck inn 4' snowdrifts.
Service plazas were a wonderfull concept not enjoyed in backward states (46)
who left interchanges open to numbskull unconnected fast food joints,
motels without food service, service stations and all that crap.
Your notion of enriching them is a good one. Just wanted you to know that
the few states that even HAVE them, are indeed fortunate.
Nelson
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <smiths-ya02408000...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
smi...@pobox.upenn.edu (Exile on Market Street) wrote:
> In article <5hmv3m$173$1...@news.iastate.edu>, jo...@iastate.edu (John Hascall)
> wrote:
>
> > [all previous comments on Boston transportation snipped]
> >
> > Having just returned from a 2.5 weeks out east
> > I thought I'd share my views on Boston, NYC,
> > and WDC. Most of the time was spent in Boston,
> > but here are a couple of side comments first.
>
> Hmph. Went right up the Jersey Turnpike, did you, and bypassed
> You-Know-Where? Or was it "went right *down* the Jersey Turnpike, did you,
> and missed Exit 4?"
>
> > That City Hall thing is a complete eyesore.
> > Unbelievably ugly in its own right, how it could
> > pay less attention to its surroundings is beyond
> > me. Truly ghastly.
>
> Someone on a.p.u will doubtless correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the
> design and siting of Boston City Hall (which IMO has a certain beauty in
> its severity) was influenced by the "defensible space" theory, which
> accounts for the hidden nature of its entrances and its location on a vast
> brick plaza (sculpted from what was once Boston's red-light district).
NOT! Kalman & McKinnel's concept was the opposite of what you suggest. It
was to unite the plaza with the building as a singular experience in which
being one or the other might be indistinguishable. They had nothing to do
with the plaza, the task of the design competition was the building, the
plaza being a given. The vastness of the plaza was the the conception of
I.M.Pei, who rejected the sensitive analysis and sizing suggested by a man
who'll be long remembered after Pei is long forgotten. His name was Kevin
Lynch (M.I.T.).
>
> > Other asides:
> > The difference between Detroit and Windsor was shocking.
> > Completely night and day. Surely there is a lesson to
> > be learned there.
>
> We're still trying to figure out what it is. (ObPlug: _The Origins of the
> Urban Crisis_, by Penn history prof [and Detroit native] Thomas Sughrue
> [Princeton, 1997], attempts to trace the spectacular rise and sudden fall
> of the city as a metropolitan center in light of, among other things, the
> persistence of racial prejudice in housing, hiring, and whatever else you
> care to mention.)
>
> > Thumbs up to the following "trends?" in rest areas:
> [...]
> > c) vending (actual food like at many tollway service plazas
> > would be even better)
>
> The Interstate Highway Act forbids service plazas on highways built with
> Interstate money, which is why the best you can hope for is vending
> machines -- unless you're in Massachusetts, where some expressways (built
> in the 1950's with state money) do have service plazas.
>
> > a) would not lodging be a natural addition to some
> > service plazas?
>
> Actually, it seems like it would -- but I am guessing that since the
> original toll expressways were designed to connect (but not enter) large
> cities, it was assumed that the travelers would probably end (or interrupt)
> their journeys there rather than make an overnight pit stop en route.
>
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <5hs29r$4h0$1...@news.iastate.edu>, jo...@iastate.edu (John
Hascall) wrote:
> Exile on Market Street <smi...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote:
> }jo...@iastate.edu (John Hascall) wrote:
> }> [all previous comments on Boston transportation snipped]
> }> Having just returned from a 2.5 weeks out east
> }> I thought I'd share my views on Boston, NYC,
> }> and WDC. Most of the time was spent in Boston,
> }> but here are a couple of side comments first.
>
> }Hmph. Went right up the Jersey Turnpike, did you, and bypassed
> }You-Know-Where? Or was it "went right *down* the Jersey Turnpike, did you,
> }and missed Exit 4?"
>
> I'm afraid I don't follow the reference to "You-Know-Where",
> but for the record: We took I95 from Mass, through RI,
> and Conn and into NY, then we veered inland at I287 (over
> the Tappan Zee) and into NJ before stumbling through
> a maze of twisty suburbs all alike until finding Summit.
> Later, down the NJT towards WDC.
No offense intended, John, I know you'd not done this before, or at least
with wife and child. The trip from Boston is simple and requires but one
train change at Penn Station from Amtrack to NJ Transit.
Nelson
Jason Makofsky
John Hascall wrote:
>
> Exile on Market Street <smi...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote:
> }jo...@iastate.edu (John Hascall) wrote:
> I'm afraid I don't follow the reference to "You-Know-Where",
> but for the record: We took I95 from Mass, through RI,
> and Conn and into NY, then we veered inland at I287 (over
> the Tappan Zee) and into NJ before stumbling through
> a maze of twisty suburbs all alike until finding Summit.
> Later, down the NJT towards WDC.
>
> }The Interstate Highway Act forbids service plazas on highways built with
> }Interstate money, which is why the best you can hope for is vending
> }machines -- unless you're in Massachusetts, where some expressways (built
> }in the 1950's with state money) do have service plazas.
I can't think of any highways in MA other than the MassPike (I-90) that
have service stations. And if I'm not mistaken the Pike was funded
by state bonds, to be paid off through toll collection. Are there any
other service stations that I'm missing?
______________________________________
Jason Makofsky, Transportation Planner
Metropolitan Area Planning Council
Boston, MA, USA (delete _nospam_ in header to reply)
***Standard Disclaimer***
Exile on Market Street
> Exile on Market Street <smi...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote:
> }Hmph. Went right up the Jersey Turnpike, did you, and bypassed
> }You-Know-Where? Or was it "went right *down* the Jersey Turnpike, did you,
> }and missed Exit 4?"
>
> I'm afraid I don't follow the reference to "You-Know-Where",
> but for the record: We took I95 from Mass, through RI,
> and Conn and into NY, then we veered inland at I287 (over
> the Tappan Zee) and into NJ before stumbling through
> a maze of twisty suburbs all alike until finding Summit.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rogue County, NJ?
> Later, down the NJT towards WDC.
Ah.
"You-Know-Where" in this context = Philadelphia. Had you driven DC->NY,
you would have seen occasional distance signs on the Kennedy Highway in
Maryland and directional signs (directing you to the bypass around
Wilmington) in Delaware where I-95, I-295 and I-495 meet. Two of these
three highways eventually take you to Philly.
Driving NY->DC, the only place along the NJT where Philadelphia is
mentioned is Exit 4 (NJ 73), hence my reverse construction. (Actually, it
may also appear on signs at Exit 3 (NJ 168) as well.)
Geenius at Wrok
On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Nelson S. Benzing wrote:
> NOT! Kalman & McKinnel's concept was the opposite of what you suggest. It
> was to unite the plaza with the building as a singular experience in which
> being one or the other might be indistinguishable. They had nothing to do
> with the plaza, the task of the design competition was the building, the
> plaza being a given. The vastness of the plaza was the the conception of
> I.M.Pei, who rejected the sensitive analysis and sizing suggested by a man
> who'll be long remembered after Pei is long forgotten. His name was Kevin
> Lynch (M.I.T.).
The more I hear about the work of I.M. Pei, the more I believe that he
should suffer the architectural equivalent of being disbarred. But I
suppose that's a topic for alt.architecture.
--
"I wish EVERY day could be a shearing festival!" -- The 10 Commandments
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Keith Ammann is gee...@albany.net * "This must be what evil tastes like!"
www.albany.net/~geenius * Live with honor, endure with grace * Analects 2:24
Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section 227, any
and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is construed
as being sent to a fax machine and subject to a $500 fine. Make my day.
Paul Anderson
In article <33427A...@mapc.org>, Jason Makofsky <jmakofsk...@mapc.org>
writes:
> I can't think of any highways in MA other than the MassPike (I-90) that have
> service stations.
There are service areas on I-95/MA 128 southbound just past the MA 16 exit, and
northbound in Lexington. There's also one on northbound MA 128 heading towards
Gloucester. A couple that no longer exist is the HoJo approaching the MA 3 exit
off I-93 in Quincy and the one on MA 2 past Fort Devens.
I also think service areas are much better than separate random services that
require you to get off the highway. What is the reason behind the federal
money restriction?
Paul
Geenius at Wrok
On 1 Apr 1997, Steve LaSala wrote:
> The most ridiculous example of seat-offering I ever saw was when I
> took the last seat on a bus and the guy next to me, *WHO HAD A BROKEN LEG
> IN A CAST* offered his seat to a perfectly fit and healthy 20-something
> woman standing nearby. The message I got was that he'd rather sit next to
> her than next to me.
I THINK the guy was probably hoping to get a date.
Michael J. Saletnik
>In article <33427A...@mapc.org>, Jason Makofsky <jmakofsk...@mapc.org>
>writes:
>
>> I can't think of any highways in MA other than the MassPike (I-90) that have
>> service stations.
And isn't there one on I-84 just on the MA side of the CT border?
Michael
Michael J. Saletnik Tufts University E'91 G'93
Structural Engineer, Bryant Associates Inc., Boston
Lecturer, Dept of Civil & Environ. Engin., Tufts University
mic...@ties.org --> http://www.tiac.net/users/icarus/
Colin R. Leech
John Hascall (jo...@iastate.edu) writes:
> Thumbs up to the following "trends?" in rest areas: [...]
> b) atms and fax machines (can the internet be far behind?)
Too late! On my trip to San Diego a month ago, I noticed the following:
(1) In the Pittsburgh airport, public pay telephones with a place to plug in
a laptop modem, and a counter to sit the computer on, and some people
actually using them.
(2) In the Ottawa airport, a pay-per-minute Internet connection
(like the cyber-cafes, but without the coffee).
Somebody on misc.transport.trucking is keeping track of Internet-friendly
truck stops. Of course, if the rest areas are being run by the government,
it may take them a while to catch up with the times. :-)
--
#### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag414 or crl...@freenet.carleton.ca
#### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
#### > < Opinions are my own. You may consider them shareware.
#### >_./|\._< "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown
John Hascall
}> but for the record: We took I95 from Mass, through RI,
}> and Conn and into NY, then we veered inland at I287 (over
}> the Tappan Zee) and into NJ before stumbling through
}> a maze of twisty suburbs all alike until finding Summit.
}No offense intended, John, I know you'd not done this before, or at least
}with wife and child. The trip from Boston is simple and requires but one
}train change at Penn Station from Amtrack to NJ Transit.
I have no doubt it would have been easier and a lot
more pleasant to take the train all the way from
Boston, unfortunately that would have left the car
in Boston...
Unfortunately Amtrak won't adjust their route through
Iowa to go through the central (populated part), but
instead goes through the very southern (rural) part,
so that makes it not very convenient for most of us.
Exile on Market Street
In article <5huec8$8rh$1...@mrnews.mro.dec.com>, ande...@funyet.mro.dec.com
(Paul Anderson) wrote:
> I also think service areas are much better than separate random services that
> require you to get off the highway. What is the reason behind the federal
> money restriction?
Don't quote me, but I think it was at the behest of the various
restaurant/drive-in/service-station owners in the communities along the US
highways the Interstates would supplant. They were already apprehensive
that the Interstate would put a serious dent in their business, and feared
(probably correctly) that service plazas directly on the Interstate would
have such a huge advantage that they would drive the existing services out
of business completely.
__________________________________________________________________________
Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
University Relations, U. of Pennsylvania 215.898.1423/fax 215.898.1203
I speak for myself here, not for Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
What would you give the world's 9th oldest subway for its 90th birthday?
How about a new car fleet? (It's getting one.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exile on Market Street
In article <nbenzing-310...@cha-nc1-18.ix.netcom.com>,
nben...@ix.netcom.com (Nelson S. Benzing) wrote:
> In article <5hmv3m$173$1...@news.iastate.edu>, jo...@iastate.edu (John
> Hascall) wrote:
>
> > NYC: [subway...]
>
> Greatest system in the World. Happy you tested the head-in-ass hype
> negative hype drivel about it. The sytstem really works. Bet your kid fell
> in love with it. Most kids do, 'cause the tend to have more sense than we
> do.
Hey, works for me. I still remember my first-ever subway ride: it was
1970, I was 11 and visiting the Big Apple for the first time with my mom's
secretary (Mom came up later). We were staying at a hotel @ 49th and
Lexington (now gone), boarded the Lexington Ave IRT at 51st, and took a
hot, noisy, graffiti-covered train one stop to Grand Central.
I loved it. Must've been the inner beauty of the system.
Exile on Market Street
> I can't think of any highways in MA other than the MassPike (I-90) that
> have service stations. And if I'm not mistaken the Pike was funded
> by state bonds, to be paid off through toll collection. Are there any
> other service stations that I'm missing?
Maybe they've all been closed since I lived in Mass. -- but I doubt it, as
I noticed that on "Today" Tuesday morning, a WHDH-TV reporter was standing
in front of one for his report on the April Fools' Snowstorm -- but there
were gas-station-and-HoJo's plazas on, among other places:
--Route 128 northbound, between (I think) the Route 2 and Route 2A
interchanges, or somewhere in that vicinity
--Route 24 northbound, south of Brockton
--Route 2 westbound, somewhere between I-495 and Fitchburg
I'm pretty sure that there was one more such plaza on 128 as well.
Alexander R Svirsky
Jason Makofsky (jmakofsk...@mapc.org) wrote:
: I can't think of any highways in MA other than the MassPike (I-90) that
: have service stations. And if I'm not mistaken the Pike was funded
: by state bonds, to be paid off through toll collection. Are there any
: other service stations that I'm missing?
Route 128 northbound near Lexington and once again in Beverly.
Route 2 westbound just before reaching Leominster had a HoJo's once, but
it has been closed for years. There is some construction activity in
this service area right now. What's in the works here? A new restaurant?
Alex
--
Alexander R Svirsky N1PRW _______-~, University of Massachusetts
asvi...@student.umass.edu /_______ { __________Amherst__________
\,}_)
^ .
Sean Peirce
John Hascall (jo...@iastate.edu) wrote:
: }No offense intended, John, I know you'd not done this before, or at least
: }with wife and child. The trip from Boston is simple and requires but one
: }train change at Penn Station from Amtrack to NJ Transit.
: I have no doubt it would have been easier and a lot
: more pleasant to take the train all the way from
: Boston, unfortunately that would have left the car
: in Boston...
Not to mention the fact that the Boston-New York trip is agonizingly
slow on Amtrak. The trip is scheduled to take about 4 1/2 hours, but
it's usually closer to 5. Even the few "express" trains take at least
4 hours, which is roughly what it takes to do the trip by car.
Sean Peirce
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <smiths-ya02408000...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
smi...@pobox.upenn.edu (Exile on Market Street) wrote:
> In article <5huec8$8rh$1...@mrnews.mro.dec.com>, ande...@funyet.mro.dec.com
> (Paul Anderson) wrote:
>
> > I also think service areas are much better than separate random
services that
> > require you to get off the highway. What is the reason behind the federal
> > money restriction?
>
> Don't quote me, but I think it was at the behest of the various
> restaurant/drive-in/service-station owners in the communities along the US
> highways the Interstates would supplant. They were already apprehensive
> that the Interstate would put a serious dent in their business, and feared
> (probably correctly) that service plazas directly on the Interstate would
> have such a huge advantage that they would drive the existing services out
> of business completely.
Not a bad guess. Penn, Jersey, Mass. Turnpikes, Merrit Prkway and the NY
Thruways were toll roads from the start and essentially "made" Howard
Johnson's and later Marriott. It was grea!. They weren't even at
interchanges. The food was actually good and heaven forbid healthy. Made
seven stops coming down I-77 from Wytheville Virginia to Charlotte last
week, strewn with all the fast food crap I taught my kids to "take drugs"
before eating, I decided what the hell, it's worth it to be hungry for
another 2 hours or so to get to your own kitchen.
Nelson
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <smiths-ya02408000...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
smi...@pobox.upenn.edu (Exile on Market Street) wrote:
> In article <nbenzing-310...@cha-nc1-18.ix.netcom.com>,
> nben...@ix.netcom.com (Nelson S. Benzing) wrote:
>
> > In article <5hmv3m$173$1...@news.iastate.edu>, jo...@iastate.edu (John
> > Hascall) wrote:
> >
> > > NYC: [subway...]
> >
> > Greatest system in the World. Happy you tested the head-in-ass hype
> > negative hype drivel about it. The sytstem really works. Bet your kid fell
> > in love with it. Most kids do, 'cause the tend to have more sense than we
> > do.
>
> Hey, works for me. I still remember my first-ever subway ride: it was
> 1970, I was 11 and visiting the Big Apple for the first time with my mom's
> secretary (Mom came up later). We were staying at a hotel @ 49th and
> Lexington (now gone), boarded the Lexington Ave IRT at 51st, and took a
> hot, noisy, graffiti-covered train one stop to Grand Central.
>
> I loved it. Must've been the inner beauty of the system
There really is one, isn't there?
Nelson.
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <5i0l1p$jft$1...@news.iastate.edu>, jo...@iastate.edu (John
Hascall) wrote:
> Nelson S. Benzing <nben...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> }jo...@iastate.edu (John Hascall) wrote:
> }> I'm afraid I don't follow the reference to "You-Know-Where",
> }> but for the record: We took I95 from Mass, through RI,
> }> and Conn and into NY, then we veered inland at I287 (over
> }> the Tappan Zee) and into NJ before stumbling through
> }> a maze of twisty suburbs all alike until finding Summit.
> }> Later, down the NJT towards WDC.
>
> }No offense intended, John, I know you'd not done this before, or at least
> }with wife and child. The trip from Boston is simple and requires but one
> }train change at Penn Station from Amtrack to NJ Transit.
>
> I have no doubt it would have been easier and a lot
> more pleasant to take the train all the way from
> Boston, unfortunately that would have left the car
> in Boston...
>
> Unfortunately Amtrak won't adjust their route through
> Iowa to go through the central (populated part), but
> instead goes through the very southern (rural) part,
> so that makes it not very convenient for most of us.
Sorry. I didn't understand you situation, which was being forced to take
your private mode of transportation on goverment subsidized roadays
instead of barely-subsidized rail transportation on which you'd have been
spared time (no overnight stopovers), provided acommodation (trains are
great for sleeping) and even food (though I have to admit it's crap, it's
no worse that what you get at the averege interstate highway interchange).
Nelson
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <5i16vp$qjk$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>, spe...@fas.harvard.edu
(Sean Peirce) wrote:
> John Hascall (jo...@iastate.edu) wrote:
> : }No offense intended, John, I know you'd not done this before, or at least
> : }with wife and child. The trip from Boston is simple and requires but one
> : }train change at Penn Station from Amtrack to NJ Transit.
>
> : I have no doubt it would have been easier and a lot
> : more pleasant to take the train all the way from
> : Boston, unfortunately that would have left the car
> : in Boston...
>
>
> Not to mention the fact that the Boston-New York trip is agonizingly
> slow on Amtrak. The trip is scheduled to take about 4 1/2 hours, but
> it's usually closer to 5. Even the few "express" trains take at least
> 4 hours, which is roughly what it takes to do the trip by car.
But what pleasant ride. I gave the car 30 years ago, just for that.
Nelson
GGermain
The reason that many states don't put truck weigh stations into more rest
areas is that on a bad ( good depending on your POV ) day is they could
completly fill (plug) all available parking. Mr. and Mrs. tourist with
their and the 50 foot RV reallty resent this inconveniece.
trucker george.
John Hascall <jo...@iastate.edu> wrote in article
<5hmv3m$173$1...@news.iastate.edu>...
> [all previous comments on Boston transportation snipped]
>
> Having just returned from a 2.5 weeks out east
> I thought I'd share my views on Boston, NYC,
> and WDC. Most of the time was spent in Boston,
> but here are a couple of side comments first.
>
> NYC: only spent a day there, traveled by subway/train(NJT) from
> Trump Tower (just south of Central Park) all the way to
> Summit NJ (where we thankfully ditched the car) in less
> than an hour -- I believe this to be somewhat greater
> than the apocryphal "3 miles/hour" oft cited here.
>
> Both were clean and comfortable. The acceleration of
> the NYC subway was not something I expected, we fairly
> rocketed from one station to another. Also, there was
> quite a good musician in the station, but we didn't
> get to listen for long. The decor of the stations
> is a wonderful touch. The number of people in
> Penn Station was incredible. Forgot to get an
> extra token as a souvenir :(
>
> The traffic in NYC was violent. Only 3 modes were
> observed. Stopped and seething; accelerator to floor;
> brake to floor; [repeat]. I've been to pretty much
> every large city in the country, this is the *one*
> I simply refuse to drive in.
>
>
> WDC: Stayed a short walk from the Ballston subway station.
> This was incredibly convenient. Never waited more than
> 5 minutes for a train. Getting to the motel by car
> was, by contrast, a rather miserable experience.
> The subway system was, however, apparently designed by
> somebody with WAY TOO MUCH fascination for Logan's Run :)
>
> Thumbs up for the ticket system.
>
> With the exception of a couple of sour, just doing the
> minimal, going through the motions, food industry workers
> in WDC, everyone we met in all the cities was very
> friendly (special thumbs up to Uncle Julio's in Ballston).
>
> The subway was generally quite busy. The careful eye
> noticed that when busy about 90% of the women were seated
> and about 90% of the men standing. Quiet politeness was
> the rule. A couple of times some people (generally youths)
> rudely pushed on before others had exited and they were
> verbally reminded how to by polite be other passengers).
>
>
> Boston: We stayed Downtown this trip (Swissotel just off
> of Washington). Like WDC getting there by car was
> not fun. It stayed parked the entire week (@ $18/day)
> and everything was close enough at hand that we just
> walked (I have used the subway on previous trips).
>
> Downtown Crossing was very active during the day
> and pretty active up until about 7pm or so.
> Quincy Market was busy as late as we ever stayed.
> For the 4 days I was busy with work, my wife and
> 3yr old son wandered around, and never felt at all
> unsafe. My wife even reported that drivers, yes,
> Boston drivers, were stopping, and even in one case
> stopped the other lanes of traffic with advanced
> horn technique :) so she could cross with the
> stroller.
>
> That City Hall thing is a complete eyesore.
> Unbelievably ugly in its own right, how it could
> pay less attention to its surroundings is beyond
> me. Truly ghastly.
>
> I can see no reason to build a pedestrian overpass
> to FH/QM (as suggested here). I found Boston to
> be VERY walkable as is because of the narrow, twisty
> streets and the large number of pedestrians.
>
> The previous suggestion that a bunch of road projects
> (a few hundred billion worth or so) will somehow
> improve the situation seems improbable (unless you
> define "improve" as driving parking rates up to, say,
> $40-$50/day).
>
>
> Other asides:
> The difference between Detroit and Windsor was shocking.
> Completely night and day. Surely there is a lesson to
> be learned there.
>
> Thumbs up to the following "trends?" in rest areas:
> a) playgrounds
> b) atms and fax machines (can the internet be far behind?)
> c) vending (actual food like at many tollway service plazas
> would be even better)
> d) location near a nature trail or semi-scenic site
> and a couple of thoughts:
> a) would not lodging be a natural addition to some
> service plazas?
> b) and why not site truck weigh stations there too?
> c) thanks to gov't vending machines for giving SBA
> dollars as change, much better than fluttering
> bills to hand to toll collectors :)
>
> No vacation of ours is "official" unless it involves:
> 1) getting snowed on (an unanticipated night in the unlikely
> location of an OTB hotel in Vernon Downs, NY)
> AND
> 2) having car trouble (jury rigging the distributor rotor/cap
> as evening waned at some nondescript BG pkwy offramp in KY)
> Boy, nothing like the "convenience" of car travel... :(
>
> John
> PS, on the unlikely chance that he should ever see this, my profound
> thanks to the KY gentleman who stopped and kept us company
Sean Peirce
Nelson S. Benzing (nben...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: > Not to mention the fact that the Boston-New York trip is agonizingly
: > slow on Amtrak.
: But what pleasant ride. I gave the car 30 years ago, just for that.
I agree with you here. The New England countryside and seacoast are great.
If only the train were faster -- fast enough to compete with the shuttle,
as is the case with the D.C.-N.Y. trip.
I've heard that plans are underway to electrify the stretch between Boston
and New Haven -- does anyone know how long will this take, and by how much
it would reduce the Boston-N.Y. travel time?
-Sean Peirce
David Chui
Last time I rode Boston to New York (which was a couple months ago), catenary
poles had been erected between Kingston and Westerly. It looked like the
southern side of the tracks was almost done on that stretch, with the northern
side started. I also saw a work crew on the tracks near South Attleboro, MA,
but beyond some concrete foundations for the poles nothing had actually been
erected north of Providence. They should be putting poles up around there by
now.
Anyway, Amtrak hopes to complete electrification by 1999, in time for the
arrival of the new American Flyer trainsets. The goal is to have hourly
Boston-NY service with a fastest travel time of 3 hours. I'll believe it when
I can ride it, but any speed improvement will be welcome.
- David
Nelson S. Benzing
> Nelson S. Benzing (nben...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> : > Not to mention the fact that the Boston-New York trip is agonizingly
> : > slow on Amtrak.
>
> : But what pleasant ride. I gave the car 30 years ago, just for that.
>
>
> I agree with you here. The New England countryside and seacoast are great.
> If only the train were faster -- fast enough to compete with the shuttle,
> as is the case with the D.C.-N.Y. trip.
>
> I've heard that plans are underway to electrify the stretch between Boston
> and New Haven -- does anyone know how long will this take, and by how much
> it would reduce the Boston-N.Y. travel time?
That is my understanding.
Nelson
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <5i27lo$1ts$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>, dc...@fas.harvard.edu
(David Chui) wrote:
> >-Sean Peirce
>
> Last time I rode Boston to New York (which was a couple months ago), catenary
> poles had been erected between Kingston and Westerly. It looked like the
> southern side of the tracks was almost done on that stretch, with the
northern
> side started. I also saw a work crew on the tracks near South Attleboro, MA,
> but beyond some concrete foundations for the poles nothing had actually been
> erected north of Providence. They should be putting poles up around there by
> now.
>
> Anyway, Amtrak hopes to complete electrification by 1999, in time for the
> arrival of the new American Flyer trainsets. The goal is to have hourly
> Boston-NY service with a fastest travel time of 3 hours. I'll believe
it when
> I can ride it, but any speed improvement will be welcome.
Thanks for the info. Evven 3.5 hours would be okay by me.
Nelson
Jonathan White
Exile on Market Street wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that there was one more such plaza on 128 as well.
>
I believe there's one on Route 128 southbound in Weston, near the Mass
Pike interchange.
>
> What would you give the world's 9th oldest subway for its 90th birthday?
> How about a new car fleet? (It's getting one.)
And the world's fourth oldest subway, and the United States' oldest
(Boston), is getting 20 more LRVs with an additional 100 to follow soon
for its centennial...
-- Jonathan White
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If nothing sticks to teflon, how do they get it to stay on the pan?
John Hascall
Colin R. Leech <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
}John Hascall (jo...@iastate.edu) writes:
}> Thumbs up to the following "trends?" in rest areas: [...]
}> b) atms and fax machines (can the internet be far behind?)
}Too late! On my trip to San Diego a month ago, I noticed the following:
}(1) In the Pittsburgh airport, public pay telephones with a place to plug in
} a laptop modem, and a counter to sit the computer on, and some people
} actually using them.
The counter is a nice touch -- a couple of years ago I was
stuck in some airport (probably chicago) and there was a phone
with a jack, so I just sat down on the floor under it --
several people got as far as reaching for the handset (which
I left dangling) before realizing the phone was in use... :)
John
John Hascall
Sean Peirce <spe...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
}John Hascall (jo...@iastate.edu) wrote:
}: }No offense intended, John, I know you'd not done this before, or at least
}: }with wife and child. The trip from Boston is simple and requires but one
}: }train change at Penn Station from Amtrack to NJ Transit.
}: I have no doubt it would have been easier and a lot
}: more pleasant to take the train all the way from
}: Boston, unfortunately that would have left the car
}: in Boston...
}Not to mention the fact that the Boston-New York trip is agonizingly
}slow on Amtrak. The trip is scheduled to take about 4 1/2 hours, but
}it's usually closer to 5. Even the few "express" trains take at least
}4 hours, which is roughly what it takes to do the trip by car.
It took us well over 5 hours by car -- the first mile of I95
alone took over an hour because it seems some numbnut in an SUV
wasn't paying attention during a lane change a made a lovely mess
out of about $100,000 worth of other people's cars -- resulting
in squeezing all 3 lanes onto the shoulder to get past...
West Philly Slumlord
: I've heard that plans are underway to electrify the stretch between Boston
: and New Haven -- does anyone know how long will this take, and by how much
: it would reduce the Boston-N.Y. travel time?
By 1999, I hear, New Haven-Boston will be electrified, just in time for
the new American Flyer. This will shave enough time off that it will be
competitive with an airplane, if you factor in terminal times and
transportation getting to the terminals. Trains dump you right downtown;
airports tend to be pretty far away.
Herbert Chan
University of Pennsylvania
Civil Engineering Systems '99
Ron Newman
In article <5i3924$ceg$1...@news.iastate.edu>,
John Hascall <jo...@iastate.edu> wrote:
> It took us well over 5 hours by car -- the first mile of I95
> alone took over an hour because it seems some numbnut in an SUV
> wasn't paying attention during a lane change a made a lovely mess
> out of about $100,000 worth of other people's cars -- resulting
> in squeezing all 3 lanes onto the shoulder to get past...
What is a "SUV" ?
--
Ron Newman rne...@cybercom.net
Web: http://www.cybercom.net/~rnewman/home.html
Jon Bell
Ron Newman <rne...@shell1.cybercom.net> wrote:
>In article <5i3924$ceg$1...@news.iastate.edu>,
>John Hascall <jo...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>
>> It took us well over 5 hours by car -- the first mile of I95
>> alone took over an hour because it seems some numbnut in an SUV
>> wasn't paying attention during a lane change a made a lovely mess
>> out of about $100,000 worth of other people's cars -- resulting
>> in squeezing all 3 lanes onto the shoulder to get past...
>
>What is a "SUV" ?
Sport Utility Vehicle. Like a Ford Bronco or Suzuki Samurai. They have
a high center of gravity which makes them prone to roll over in a sudden
avoidance maneuver. I bet that's what happened here.
--
Jon Bell <jtb...@presby.edu> Presbyterian College
Dept. of Physics and Computer Science Clinton, South Carolina USA
[ http://web.presby/edu/~jtbell/transit/ ]
C.C. Slater
In article <5i3j2o$k...@shell1.cybercom.net>, rne...@shell1.cybercom.net (Ron Newman) writes:
>In article <5i3924$ceg$1...@news.iastate.edu>,
>John Hascall <jo...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>
>> It took us well over 5 hours by car -- the first mile of I95
>> alone took over an hour because it seems some numbnut in an SUV
>> wasn't paying attention during a lane change a made a lovely mess
>> out of about $100,000 worth of other people's cars -- resulting
>> in squeezing all 3 lanes onto the shoulder to get past...
>
>What is a "SUV" ?
in an accident then if you were driving a 1968 Datsun.
-c/s-
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <5i3924$ceg$1...@news.iastate.edu>, jo...@iastate.edu (John
Hascall) wrote:
> Sean Peirce <spe...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
> }John Hascall (jo...@iastate.edu) wrote:
> }: }No offense intended, John, I know you'd not done this before, or at least
> }: }with wife and child. The trip from Boston is simple and requires but one
> }: }train change at Penn Station from Amtrack to NJ Transit.
> }: I have no doubt it would have been easier and a lot
> }: more pleasant to take the train all the way from
> }: Boston, unfortunately that would have left the car
> }: in Boston...
>
> }Not to mention the fact that the Boston-New York trip is agonizingly
> }slow on Amtrak. The trip is scheduled to take about 4 1/2 hours, but
> }it's usually closer to 5. Even the few "express" trains take at least
> }4 hours, which is roughly what it takes to do the trip by car.
>
> It took us well over 5 hours by car -- the first mile of I95
> alone took over an hour because it seems some numbnut in an SUV
> wasn't paying attention during a lane change a made a lovely mess
> out of about $100,000 worth of other people's cars -- resulting
> in squeezing all 3 lanes onto the shoulder to get past..
Having not been in the situation of not having to drive it in decades,
you've made me feel better a'redy yet, not that felt all that bad about
it.
March 17 is my birthday. As a student I always took what was then called
the "Merchants Express" from the the free drinks celebration in NYC to
what always turned out to be a "free-drinks train ride" (look out for
Dutch soldiers with roaming hands, however) to the culminating event in
Boston that night. Dad always managed to find and scoop me up from the
street somewhere (usually Scolley Sq., which was a whole light more than
the "redlight district" someone described it as being in an earlier post).
My last two free-drink birthdays have been on AA to Seatle and USAir to
LA. It's just not the same.
Nelson
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <E84pu...@presby.edu>, jtb...@presby.edu (Jon Bell) wrote:
> Ron Newman <rne...@shell1.cybercom.net> wrote:
> >In article <5i3924$ceg$1...@news.iastate.edu>,
> >John Hascall <jo...@iastate.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> It took us well over 5 hours by car -- the first mile of I95
> >> alone took over an hour because it seems some numbnut in an SUV
> >> wasn't paying attention during a lane change a made a lovely mess
> >> out of about $100,000 worth of other people's cars -- resulting
> >> in squeezing all 3 lanes onto the shoulder to get past...
> >
> >What is a "SUV" ?
>
> Sport Utility Vehicle. Like a Ford Bronco or Suzuki Samurai. They have
> a high center of gravity which makes them prone to roll over in a sudden
> avoidance maneuver. I bet that's what happened here.
But aren't these the nuisances shown on TV on top of mesas in the desert;
maybe even mounting Mount Hood and traversing African jungles? A near
relative of Barcawheelers?
Nelson
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <5i39lb$a2j$1...@news.iastate.edu>, jo...@iastate.edu (John
Hascall) wrote:
> Colin R. Leech <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> }John Hascall (jo...@iastate.edu) writes:
> }> Thumbs up to the following "trends?" in rest areas: [...]
> }> b) atms and fax machines (can the internet be far behind?)
>
> }Too late! On my trip to San Diego a month ago, I noticed the following:
> }(1) In the Pittsburgh airport, public pay telephones with a place to plug in
> } a laptop modem, and a counter to sit the computer on, and some people
> } actually using them.
>
> The counter is a nice touch -- a couple of years ago I was
> stuck in some airport (probably chicago) and there was a phone
> with a jack, so I just sat down on the floor under it --
> several people got as far as reaching for the handset (which
> I left dangling) before realizing the phone was in use... :)
Took the same air route to S.D.; noticed the same thing and was in general
very impressed with the Pittsburg airport.
Nelson
Jim Beebe
Jon Bell <jtb...@presby.edu> wrote in article <E84pu...@presby.edu>...
> Sport Utility Vehicle. Like a Ford Bronco or Suzuki Samurai. They have
> a high center of gravity which makes them prone to roll over in a sudden
> avoidance maneuver. I bet that's what happened here.
The Ford Bronco, Explorer, and most other SUV's have taken care of this
problem well enough that they won't roll unless they are "tripped" by a
ditch or something similar.
Changing to a "high performance" tire can change this stability.
Jim Beebe
David W. Barts
nben...@ix.netcom.com (Nelson S. Benzing) writes:
>Sorry. I didn't understand you situation, which was being forced to take
>your private mode of transportation on goverment subsidized roadays
>instead of barely-subsidized rail transportation on which you'd have been
>spared time (no overnight stopovers), provided acommodation (trains are
>great for sleeping) and even food (though I have to admit it's crap, it's
>no worse that what you get at the averege interstate highway interchange).
I can't dispute your assessment of Amtrak's food in the general case,
but if you ever have a chance to take the regional rail service in the
corridor between Vancouver, BC and Salem, OR (subsidized by the states
of OR and WA but contracted out to Amtrak), you'll find the trains
with dining cars (alas, only some have a true dining car) to be an
exception to this rule. I had a very nice meal in the Talgo dining car
coming home after Christmas last year. Meals are catered by a gourmet
grocery chain in Seattle, and typically feature foods produced in
Washington (rationale is for the state to promote its farming
industry).
Of course, I have just digressed from the _urban_ transit charter of
this group; guess I'll stop now.
--
David Barts N5JRN | UW Civil Engineering, Box 352700 | Seattle, WA 98195-2700
dav...@ce.washington.edu | http://www.ce.washington.edu/~davidb
0420 GMT T: 52 F wind: NNW 0 gust 1 mph P: 1018 mbar
David W. Barts
John Hascall <jo...@iastate.edu> wrote in article
> Both were clean and comfortable. The acceleration of
> the NYC subway was not something I expected, we fairly
> rocketed from one station to another. Also, there was
> quite a good musician in the station, but we didn't
> get to listen for long. The decor of the stations
> is a wonderful touch.
Indeed. I had heard so much about the subway from the days when it
(and NYC in general) hit rock bottom in the 70s that I didn't really
expect anything like the old ceramics would have survived. (In
retrospect, it's probably all the deferred maintenance in the bad old
days that we have to _thank_ for so many stations being intact: had
the NYCTA put more money into its stations, they would have probably
been all modernized to death in the 50s and 60s. Sadly, there seems
to be a period of time about 20 - 40 years after something is built
when the conventional wisdom proclaims it neither 'modern' nor
'historic'; it's just 'dated'. Unfortunately, if all the 'dated'
architecture gets modernized, then we never get anything to the
historic stage. End digression.)
At any rate, I really enjoyed the ceramic work, and would always look
forward to taking the subway to a new part of the city and seeing what
the different stations looked like. Sometimes when I'd see a station
I really liked, I'd get off the train, spend a few minutes
appreciating the artwork, then catch the next train. If memory
serves, the Christopher St./Sheridan Sq. IRT station is a real gem,
with both well-preserved old ceramics and some very colorful new ones
designed by school children in the neighborhood that portray local
history.
There's a book called _Subway_Ceramics:_A_History_and_Iconography_ (by
Lee Stookey, ISBN 0-9635846-1-1) which has pictures from a number of
stations in it. It's one of the souvenirs I took back from my vacation
(found it in the gift shop at the NYC Transit Museum).
> The number of people in
> Penn Station was incredible. Forgot to get an
> extra token as a souvenir :(
If you want, I'll mail you one. Subway tokens seemed to be very
skilled at hiding themselves in my wallet's change purse, and several
times I couldn't find any when I was _sure_ I still had some. Took one
back with me, then got home and found three others hiding in my change
purse.
However, it would just be a token gift. (ouch)
--
David Barts N5JRN | UW Civil Engineering, Box 352700 | Seattle, WA 98195-2700
dav...@ce.washington.edu | http://www.ce.washington.edu/~davidb
0454 GMT T: 52 F wind: N 2 gust 4 mph P: 1018 mbar
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <5i78cc$r...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>, dav...@ce.washington.edu
(David W. Barts) wrote:
> nben...@ix.netcom.com (Nelson S. Benzing) writes:
>
> >Sorry. I didn't understand you situation, which was being forced to take
> >your private mode of transportation on goverment subsidized roadays
> >instead of barely-subsidized rail transportation on which you'd have been
> >spared time (no overnight stopovers), provided acommodation (trains are
> >great for sleeping) and even food (though I have to admit it's crap, it's
> >no worse that what you get at the averege interstate highway interchange).
>
> I can't dispute your assessment of Amtrak's food in the general case,
> but if you ever have a chance to take the regional rail service in the
> corridor between Vancouver, BC and Salem, OR (subsidized by the states
> of OR and WA but contracted out to Amtrak), you'll find the trains
> with dining cars (alas, only some have a true dining car) to be an
> exception to this rule. I had a very nice meal in the Talgo dining car
> coming home after Christmas last year. Meals are catered by a gourmet
> grocery chain in Seattle, and typically feature foods produced in
> Washington (rationale is for the state to promote its farming
> industry).
I recall my mother and father talking about that. I'll have to try it sometime.
Thanks
Nelson
M Greene
smi...@pobox.upenn.edu (Exile on Market Street) wrote:
>In article <5hs29r$4h0$1...@news.iastate.edu>, jo...@iastate.edu (John Hascall)
>wrote:
>> Exile on Market Street <smi...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote:
>> }Hmph. Went right up the Jersey Turnpike, did you, and bypassed
>> }You-Know-Where? Or was it "went right *down* the Jersey Turnpike, did you,
>> }and missed Exit 4?"
>>
>> I'm afraid I don't follow the reference to "You-Know-Where",
>> but for the record: We took I95 from Mass, through RI,
>> and Conn and into NY, then we veered inland at I287 (over
>> the Tappan Zee) and into NJ before stumbling through
>> a maze of twisty suburbs all alike until finding Summit.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Rogue County, NJ?
>> Later, down the NJT towards WDC.
>Ah.
>"You-Know-Where" in this context = Philadelphia. Had you driven DC->NY,
>you would have seen occasional distance signs on the Kennedy Highway in
>Maryland and directional signs (directing you to the bypass around
>Wilmington) in Delaware where I-95, I-295 and I-495 meet. Two of these
>three highways eventually take you to Philly.
Most of these signs are of recent vintage. I'm not sure, but I do
remember some signs on I-95 in Maryland heading north from Baltimore,
I think after the Baltimore area 4-lane/direction stretch ends, where
the mileage signs for Philadelphia are placed at the bottom of the
mileage sign(on a separate sign). Not sure if they're still there,
though I may find out next Sunday night(unless I travel via Annapolis
and U.S. 301-see those details next week).
>Driving NY->DC, the only place along the NJT where Philadelphia is
>mentioned is Exit 4 (NJ 73), hence my reverse construction. (Actually, it
>may also appear on signs at Exit 3 (NJ 168) as well.)
Never travelled past the latter(at least while awake). Have seen the
former.
Later
Michael T. Greene
Because of the influx of junk mail, send all e-mail responses
to the following address: mgr...@voicenet.com@removethisbeforemailing
Ron Newman
In article <5i7ac3$s...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
David W. Barts <dav...@ce.washington.edu> wrote:
>If memory
>serves, the Christopher St./Sheridan Sq. IRT station is a real gem,
>with both well-preserved old ceramics and some very colorful new ones
>designed by school children in the neighborhood that portray local
>history.
Moving this thread back to Boston, which is its original subject:
You'll find some ceramics designed by schoolkids in the
Davis Square Red Line station, which opened in 1984.
ab...@tiac.net
On 6 Apr 1997 04:55:31 GMT, dav...@ce.washington.edu (David W. Barts)
wrote:
snip
Sadly, there seems
>to be a period of time about 20 - 40 years after something is built
>when the conventional wisdom proclaims it neither 'modern' nor
>'historic'; it's just 'dated'. Unfortunately, if all the 'dated'
>architecture gets modernized, then we never get anything to the
>historic stage. End digression.)
>
But not a useless digression. I feel that a building often needs even
longer, say 75-100 years for its aesthetic value to show through. Its
always been more difficult to assess the long term artistic and
historical value of contemporary objects than say something 150 years
old. Often artistic styles will initially be praised , then followed
by a period of negative criticism, before being rediscovered again.
Dave Dologite
Allston Brighton CDC
Nelson S. Benzing
I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing, but there is an important
period of architectural history that is seriously threatened and being
wiped out with pseudo-historic pastiche, namely the Modern Period.
Charlotte's 1950's International Style Central Library was a fine example
of that period, as is Edward Durrel Stone's orginal piece of the Museum of
Modern Art. In significantly expanding the library, they decided to "cover
up" the 1950's building, which external form remained, with brick and
limestone so it'd match the new pseudo-19th C. addition. I wonder if some
historian will discover this in 40 years and we'll see it uncovered by the
succesor generation of preservationists who've pulled the 20th C. curtain
walls from the faces of so many 19th C. buildings, *whether they're
worthy* of uncovering or not. Isn't this whole process what urban vitality
was about before we got caught up in this whole issue of *control*?
Nelson
Jason Makofsky
Exile on Market Street wrote:
>
> <jmakofsk...@mapc.org> wrote:
>
> > I can't think of any highways in MA other than the MassPike (I-90) that
> > have service stations. And if I'm not mistaken the Pike was funded
> > by state bonds, to be paid off through toll collection. Are there any
> > other service stations that I'm missing?
>
> Maybe they've all been closed since I lived in Mass. -- but I doubt it, as
> I noticed that on "Today" Tuesday morning, a WHDH-TV reporter was standing
> in front of one for his report on the April Fools' Snowstorm -- but there
> were gas-station-and-HoJo's plazas on, among other places:
>
> --Route 128 northbound, between (I think) the Route 2 and Route 2A
> interchanges, or somewhere in that vicinity
>
> --Route 24 northbound, south of Brockton
>
> --Route 2 westbound, somewhere between I-495 and Fitchburg
>
> I'm pretty sure that there was one more such plaza on 128 as well.
Anyone here read March, 1997 issue of Roads & Bridges? There is an
article about France's highway system, and how it was financed.
The article also highlights some of the "service stations" some of
which have amenities like masseurs, sports events for children, etc.
3,720 miles in France were built using very little government money,
by semipublic and private companies in exchange for the right to
collect tolls. Customer service is high on the list of priorities
for the private roads. Drivers are viewed as clients and many
precautions
are taken to guarantee their satisfaction with the road, including
emergency call boxes along the road, or sculptures along the route
and in the rest areas, to encourage drivers to stop, rest, and reduce
fatigue. The average toll rate in France is $0.05 per mile for cars,
and $0.07 for trucks. Also, each concessionaire is committed to using
the latest technology in traffic control centers to help alleviate
congestion, prevent accidents, and ensure a swift, smooth ride.
...fwiw
______________________________________
Jason Makofsky, Transportation Planner
Metropolitan Area Planning Council
Boston, MA, USA (delete _nospam_ in header to reply)
***Standard Disclaimer***
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <3348F7...@mapc.org>, Jason Makofsky
<jmakofsk...@mapc.org> wrote:
Another case of a Socialist Democracy practicing Capitalist Democracy
better than the U.S.A.
Nelson
ab...@tiac.net
On Mon, 07 Apr 1997 05:12:23 -0500, nben...@ix.netcom.com (Nelson S.
Benzing) wrote:
snip
Unfortunately, if all the 'dated'
>> >architecture gets modernized, then we never get anything to the
>> >historic stage. End digression.)
>> >
>> But not a useless digression. I feel that a building often needs even
>> longer, say 75-100 years for its aesthetic value to show through. Its
>> always been more difficult to assess the long term artistic and
>> historical value of contemporary objects than say something 150 years
>> old. Often artistic styles will initially be praised , then followed
>> by a period of negative criticism, before being rediscovered again.
>
>I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing,
Agreeing, wholeheatedly.
but there is an important
>period of architectural history that is seriously threatened and being
>wiped out with pseudo-historic pastiche, namely the Modern Period.
>Charlotte's 1950's International Style Central Library was a fine example
>of that period, as is Edward Durrel Stone's orginal piece of the Museum of
>Modern Art. In significantly expanding the library, they decided to "cover
>up" the 1950's building, which external form remained, with brick and
>limestone so it'd match the new pseudo-19th C. addition.
Its a shame. Modernism as a distinct period like Baroque or
NeoClassicism is due (or actually in the middle of) a reassessment of
its merits and failures.(Having passed through Post-Modernism,
DeConstrucitvism, etc. and hopefully arriving on the other side the
better for the trip) Its unfortunate that the excesses and banalities
of the International style and Modernism as a whole have turned off so
many to the point that we risk destroying or scarring truly fine works
of the period.
I wonder if some
>historian will discover this in 40 years and we'll see it uncovered by the
>succesor generation of preservationists who've pulled the 20th C. curtain
>walls from the faces of so many 19th C. buildings, *whether they're
>worthy* of uncovering or not. Isn't this whole process what urban vitality
>was about before we got caught up in this whole issue of *control*?
>
We've also become enthralled as a society with the absolutely new.
Revamped, reinvograted, reformulated to be better, bigger, brighter,
more potent, razzle-dazzly, return on dollar or your money back! The
worst part of it is that this aspect of our culture (the cult of the
new) is what makes the products of our culture so vital and
interesting.
Dave Dologite
Allston Brighton CDC
"America, why are your libraries full of tears?" -- Allen Ginsberg
David D. Brown
>
> I can't think of any highways in MA other than the MassPike (I-90) that
> have service stations. And if I'm not mistaken the Pike was funded
> by state bonds, to be paid off through toll collection. Are there any
> other service stations that I'm missing?
>
>
> Jason Makofsky, Transportation Planner
> Metropolitan Area Planning Council
> Boston, MA, USA (delete _nospam_ in header to reply)
> ***Standard Disclaimer***
128 has one in Beverly northbound, and Lexington south and Burlington
north. I believe there is a pair down on route 24 also, but I don't
remember for sure.
--
David D. Brown
Ninety Mast Road
Lee, New Hampshire
USA 03824
Phone 603:659-3137
Fax 603:658-5739
Nelson S. Benzing
Your assessment of Modernism "with the passage of time" is little
different than the assesment of its predecessor at approximately the same
age, so a pettern is definitely being followed. They were also considered
"unfortunate for their excesses and banalities". The world is no more full
of bad 19th C. architecture (being saved and even copied, for God's sake)
than it is with bad 20th C. architecture that gets torn down at a little
higher rate than good 20th C. architecure because it's "fashionable to do
so". Take a good look at the AIA Guide to New York and you'll find great
Neo-Classical Monuments destroyed while a lot of mediocre crap that was
considered crap in its own time, is being preserved with Theme Park
Nostalgia.
>
Nelson
>
>"America, why are your libraries full of tears?" -- Allen Ginsberg
A very relevant question. Are we to be a nation that built nothing from
1950 to 1975? Sorta puts us in the catalogue with The Etruscans.
D Banks
West Philly Slumlord wrote:
>
Snip
> Trains dump you right downtown;
> airports tend to be pretty far away.
>
>
Too bad the planners in Ottawa didn't know this, eh Colin?
Geenius at Wrok
On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Nelson S. Benzing wrote:
> In article <3347e2ac....@news.tiac.net>, ab...@tiac.net wrote:
>
> > But not a useless digression. I feel that a building often needs even
> > longer, say 75-100 years for its aesthetic value to show through. Its
> > always been more difficult to assess the long term artistic and
> > historical value of contemporary objects than say something 150 years
> > old. Often artistic styles will initially be praised , then followed
> > by a period of negative criticism, before being rediscovered again.
>
> I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing, but there is an important
> period of architectural history that is seriously threatened and being
> wiped out with pseudo-historic pastiche, namely the Modern Period.
Well, let's not get so caught up in POTENTIAL aesthetic value that we
ignore FUNCTIONAL value, which most modernist buildings are sorely lacking
in. Let those that work well as comfortable human spaces remain, but if
the rest are leveled, I won't shed a tear. The only value most modernist
buildings will have will be to teach future generations how appalling
architecture can be when it forces humanity to adapt to it rather than
vice versa.
--
"I wish EVERY day could be a shearing festival!" -- The 10 Commandments
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Keith Ammann is gee...@albany.net * "This must be what evil tastes like!"
www.albany.net/~geenius * Live with honor, endure with grace * Analects 2:24
Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section 227, any
and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is construed
as being sent to a fax machine and subject to a $500 fine. Make my day.
David J. P. Long - Change '_' in email to '.'
spe...@fas.harvard.edu (Sean Peirce) wrote:
>I've heard that plans are underway to electrify the stretch between Boston
>and New Haven -- does anyone know how long will this take, and by how much
>it would reduce the Boston-N.Y. travel time?
September 1999 is when the first "American Flyer" is supposed to be
pressed into service.
The goal is 3 hour Boston - New York travel times.
+------/|-------------------------------------------------------+
| | | djl...@magic.mv.com |
| / | djl...@msn.com |
| ( ) http://www.mv.com/ipusers/magic |
+----`--' ------------------------------------------------------+
David J. P. Long - Change '_' in email to '.'
Jason Makofsky <jmakofsk...@mapc.org> wrote:
>I can't think of any highways in MA other than the MassPike (I-90) that
>have service stations. And if I'm not mistaken the Pike was funded
>by state bonds, to be paid off through toll collection. Are there any
>other service stations that I'm missing?
Route 128 (now I-95) near the I-90 interchange (southbound) and near
the 4 / 225 interchange (northbound).
ab...@tiac.net
On Wed, 9 Apr 1997 07:48:31 -0400, Geenius at Wrok
<gee...@magik.albany.net> wrote:
snip
>Well, let's not get so caught up in POTENTIAL aesthetic value that we
>ignore FUNCTIONAL value, which most modernist buildings are sorely lacking
>in. Let those that work well as comfortable human spaces remain, but if
>the rest are leveled, I won't shed a tear. The only value most modernist
>buildings will have will be to teach future generations how appalling
>architecture can be when it forces humanity to adapt to it rather than
>vice versa.
Why even seperate the two? In earlier eras, human beings were the
standard against which aesthetics were judged. (Man is the Measure of
All Things) The proportions of building were to harmoniously relate
to each other in the same manner in which the parts of the human body
related to each other and to the body as a whole. One can still build
grand, massive spaces that feel intimate. The Dome of St. Peter's
Cathedral comes to mind, as well as the Hagia Sophia. Maybe we need
to build skyscapers as testaments to humankind and not to the power of
the corporation.
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.970409...@magik.albany.net>,
Geenius at Wrok <gee...@magik.albany.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Nelson S. Benzing wrote:
>
> > In article <3347e2ac....@news.tiac.net>, ab...@tiac.net wrote:
> >
> > > But not a useless digression. I feel that a building often needs even
> > > longer, say 75-100 years for its aesthetic value to show through. Its
> > > always been more difficult to assess the long term artistic and
> > > historical value of contemporary objects than say something 150 years
> > > old. Often artistic styles will initially be praised , then followed
> > > by a period of negative criticism, before being rediscovered again.
> >
> > I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing, but there is an important
> > period of architectural history that is seriously threatened and being
> > wiped out with pseudo-historic pastiche, namely the Modern Period.
>
> Well, let's not get so caught up in POTENTIAL aesthetic value that we
> ignore FUNCTIONAL value, which most modernist buildings are sorely lacking
> in.
Pardon? The whole history of Modern Architecture began with the statements
of Violet le Duc, 1854 and about the same time by the American sculpture
Horatio Greenough (who convinced John Mills not to put a stupid Roman
portico around the base of the Washington Monument), that "Form should
follow Function", and not the other way around, as was characteristic of
the preeceeding period that stuffed state capitol functions into copy of
L'Vieux Carre (Ricmnond), State Capitol buildings from patternbook
ariations of the Panhteon (4 BCE), banks into classical greek temples,
Universities into into replicated palaces, etc., and ad.infinitum, none of
which worked functionally or there would have been problem to be solved by
an architecure that would concern itself with human habitation aboce
cliche pattern-book form.
> Let those that work well as comfortable human spaces remain, but if
> the rest are leveled, I won't shed a tear.
But that goes with any architecture of any period. Tear down the premodern
crap that neither functions to today's habitational needs nor has any
merit as good works of architecture (proportional, material and detailed
asthetics). The problem at the moment is that our preservationist/quaint
theme park addiction to nostalgia would preservd a thirty-foot high
uninhabitable petrified turd, if it found one.
> The only value most modernist
> buildings will have will be to teach future generations how appalling
> architecture can be when it forces humanity to adapt to it rather than
> vice versa.
Which is a totaly biased statement 'cause you don't like how it "looks"
and therefore could care less if it really functions.
Are you ready to tear down the Christian Science Center, a thing of great
beauty and a tribute to Functionality? Wanna dump the Crysler Building,
Empire State Building the Museums of Modern Art, Whitney and Guggenheim?
Lets tear down Paris' Bibliotece Nationale, and the Eiffel Tower, much
less the Centre Pompidou, now visited by more peole annually that Eiffel's
tower? And that aweful Seagrams building, which plaza more New Yorkers
occupy per square foot during the day than any other in the city. Wanna
tear down the Hancock tower that is deliberately annoymous out of respect
for Trinity Church, which fcade, along with the Coply PLaza, it relects,
and save the non-modern/post-modern piece of crap by Phillip Johnson which
tacky ornateness has obliterated the profile Richardson's masterpiece
(Trinity Church) from the Boston Public Library (except in the afternoon
glow of west sunlight). Tear down Kahn's Salk Institute with four daily
tours because it is masterpiece of form and function eaually considered? I
could go on, but the list is too long and the saved for "petrieid turds'
sake could become 12 volumes.
Nelson
ab...@tiac.net
>
>In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.970409...@magik.albany.net>,
>Geenius at Wrok <gee...@magik.albany.net> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Nelson S. Benzing wrote:
>>
>> > In article <3347e2ac....@news.tiac.net>, ab...@tiac.net wrote:
snip
>> Well, let's not get so caught up in POTENTIAL aesthetic value that we
>> ignore FUNCTIONAL value, which most modernist buildings are sorely lacking
>> in.
>
>Pardon? The whole history of Modern Architecture began with the statements
>of Violet le Duc, 1854 and about the same time by the American sculpture
>Horatio Greenough (who convinced John Mills not to put a stupid Roman
>portico around the base of the Washington Monument), that "Form should
>follow Function", and not the other way around, as was characteristic of
>the preeceeding period that stuffed state capitol functions into copy of
>L'Vieux Carre (Ricmnond), State Capitol buildings from patternbook
>ariations of the Panhteon (4 BCE), banks into classical greek temples,
>Universities into into replicated palaces, etc., and ad.infinitum, none of
>which worked functionally or there would have been problem to be solved by
>an architecure that would concern itself with human habitation aboce
>cliche pattern-book form.
Great essay by Greenough. Thanks for bringing it up. Personally, I'm
uncomfortable dating the beginning of Modernism at 1850. (Although
I'm well aware that many critics begin the Modern period at
mid-nineteenth century. Also seen it dated as beginning in the 1700s
with the Age of Reason, or even at the Renaissance around mid-late
1400s. Latter in a book of PoMo criticism. Go figure) The works of
Richardson, Adler & Sullivan, Burnham & Root, et al. occupy a style
distinct from what I'd call Modernism. Wright, although a
contemporary of van der Rohe and Le Corbu, would not easily fit into
the label Modernist, in my opinion. (Which is not to say he is not
modern. ;-) ) Trouble with art historical labels I guess.
snip
>> The only value most modernist
>> buildings will have will be to teach future generations how appalling
>> architecture can be when it forces humanity to adapt to it rather than
>> vice versa.
>
>Which is a totaly biased statement 'cause you don't like how it "looks"
>and therefore could care less if it really functions.
>
>Are you ready to tear down the Christian Science Center, a thing of great
>beauty and a tribute to Functionality?
And a knockoff of St. Peters to boot. Which shows that one can copy
creatively.
Wanna dump the Crysler Building,
>Empire State Building the Museums of Modern Art, Whitney and Guggenheim?
Actually, I would tear down the Whitney. Brutalism has never won me
over. And the Whitney as a building is not even in the same universe
as Wright's Guggenheim, IMHO.
>Lets tear down Paris' Bibliotece Nationale, and the Eiffel Tower, much
>less the Centre Pompidou, now visited by more peole annually that Eiffel's
>tower? And that aweful Seagrams building, which plaza more New Yorkers
>occupy per square foot during the day than any other in the city. Wanna
>tear down the Hancock tower that is deliberately annoymous out of respect
>for Trinity Church, which fcade, along with the Coply PLaza, it relects,
>and save the non-modern/post-modern piece of crap by Phillip Johnson which
>tacky ornateness has obliterated the profile Richardson's masterpiece
>(Trinity Church) from the Boston Public Library (except in the afternoon
>glow of west sunlight).
Here, here. Down with the "New" wing of the BPL. Its an insult to
Boston.
Tear down Kahn's Salk Institute with four daily
>tours because it is masterpiece of form and function eaually considered? I
>could go on, but the list is too long and the saved for "petrieid turds'
>sake could become 12 volumes.
>
>Nelson
As above, the reaction seems to be against that particularly style of
the modern period which started with and grew from the Bauhaus and the
International style, which is often equated with Modernism, when it is
more of style within the period.
That said, I think the criticism of the International style is
partially merited, if only in its expression by hack designers. Its
unctionality is sometimes its undoing. Being a cheap, easy to
reproduce style has resulted in a lot a cheap looking, over imitated,
identical looking buildings. The World Trade Center in NY is gross
looking and without soul no matter how you cut it. Sometimes you need
to tear down the old to make way for something fresh and exciting.
Would the Paris of today be as it is if Napolean III hadn't demolished
half the old city to build von Haussman's avenues and boulevards. (of
course, it comes with a price, sometimes far too steep, like Boston's
West End.)
Hmmm, I think I've opined myself into a circle...
Dave Dologite
Colin R. Leech
D Banks (david...@gdt.com) writes:
> West Philly Slumlord wrote:
>>
>> Trains dump you right downtown;
>> airports tend to be pretty far away.
>
> Too bad the planners in Ottawa didn't know this, eh Colin?
Yes, indeed.
(For the benefit of most readers: the National Capital Commission (federal
government agency) moved the intercity train station from downtown to the
suburbs in 1967 as a 'beautification' project. Instead of ugly rail lines
along the side of the scenic Rideau Canal, there is now a two lane parkway
and parkland on each side.
The train station is now right on the Transitway, only there are few
trains left to serve! I've always wondered how much impact the Transitway
could have had on intercity train service had it been in existance 20
years earlier when the station was first moved. FWIW, the airport is now
the southern terminus of the Transitway as well, a mere 20-25 minutes from
downtown.)
--
#### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag414 or crl...@freenet.carleton.ca
#### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
#### > < Opinions are my own. You may consider them shareware.
#### >_./|\._< "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <334d387d....@news.tiac.net>, ab...@tiac.net wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Apr 1997 07:48:31 -0400, Geenius at Wrok
> <gee...@magik.albany.net> wrote:
>
> snip
> >Well, let's not get so caught up in POTENTIAL aesthetic value that we
> >ignore FUNCTIONAL value, which most modernist buildings are sorely lacking
> >in. Let those that work well as comfortable human spaces remain, but if
> >the rest are leveled, I won't shed a tear. The only value most modernist
> >buildings will have will be to teach future generations how appalling
> >architecture can be when it forces humanity to adapt to it rather than
> >vice versa.
>
> Why even seperate the two? In earlier eras, human beings were the
> standard against which aesthetics were judged. (Man is the Measure of
> All Things) The proportions of building were to harmoniously relate
> to each other in the same manner in which the parts of the human body
> related to each other and to the body as a whole.
A concept first stated Vitruvius, again by Michaelangelo and then total
forgotten through the 19th C. until a Modernist named LeCorbusier,
reinserted it in the "Modular".
> One can still build
> grand, massive spaces that feel intimate. The Dome of St. Peter's
> Cathedral comes to mind, as well as the Hagia Sophia. Maybe we need
> to build skyscapers as testaments to humankind and not to the power of
> the corporation.
A totally new twist, I must say, since the precedents you cite were
testaments to the power of Organized Religion over the people.
If you want to see grand spaces that are intimately scaled and not to
signify the power of Religion or Business nor subscription to prescriptive
historic styles, visit most any rail station, the Bibioteque Nationale,
Centre Pompidou and it's addition, Place Stalingrade, Parc du Villete or
Parc Andre Citroen in Paris. Look at any and all of the buildings of Alvar
AAlto (Baker Hall at MIT), Louis Kahn (Phillips Exeter Library and the
Salk Institute) The Christian Science Center in Boston, the Museum of
Modern Art courtyard in NYC, and any of the works of Carlo Scarpa in
Italy. For skyscrapers, enter the lobbies of the Art Moderne Chrysler and
Empire State Buildings or Rockerfeller Center Plaza. If there's a division
in form and function in these places (all of the secular Modern Period)
few folks have realized it yet
In principle, but not detail, I agree with your response.
Thanks
Nelson
Nelson S. Benzing
> On Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:01:41 -0500, nben...@ix.netcom.com (Nelson S.
> Benzing) wrote:
>
> >
> >In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.970409...@magik.albany.net>,
> >Geenius at Wrok <gee...@magik.albany.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Nelson S. Benzing wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article <3347e2ac....@news.tiac.net>, ab...@tiac.net wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >> Well, let's not get so caught up in POTENTIAL aesthetic value that we
> >> ignore FUNCTIONAL value, which most modernist buildings are sorely lacking
> >> in.
> >
> >Pardon? The whole history of Modern Architecture began with the statements
> >of Violet le Duc, 1854 and about the same time by the American sculpture
> >Horatio Greenough (who convinced John Mills not to put a stupid Roman
> >portico around the base of the Washington Monument), that "Form should
> >follow Function", and not the other way around, as was characteristic of
> >the preeceeding period that stuffed state capitol functions into copy of
> >L'Vieux Carre (Ricmnond), State Capitol buildings from patternbook
> >ariations of the Panhteon (4 BCE), banks into classical greek temples,
> >Universities into into replicated palaces, etc., and ad.infinitum, none of
> >which worked functionally or there would have been problem to be solved by
> >an architecure that would concern itself with human habitation aboce
> >cliche pattern-book form.
>
> Great essay by Greenough. Thanks for bringing it up. Personally, I'm
> uncomfortable dating the beginning of Modernism at 1850.
This the widely accepted date because the Renaissance began with the
rediscovery of history, beginning with Ghilbert's and Donatello's of
rediscovery of classical sculpture and Brunelleshi's discovery of the
contruction of the ancient Pantheon as a means to cover the crossing of
S.M.della Fiore, in Florence. References to this period as "Modern", in my
education, applied to to science and literature.
> (Although
> I'm well aware that many critics begin the Modern period at
> mid-nineteenth century.
Per above, I know of no *historian* who's stood the test of time that
otherwise dates Modern Architecture, but agree with it's application to
other arts and sciences.
> Also seen it dated as beginning in the 1700s
> with the Age of Reason, or even at the Renaissance around mid-late
> 1400s. Latter in a book of PoMo criticism. Go figure)
Anything written in a book of PoMo criticism (now quite out of vogue for
good reason) is liable to contain any amount of nonsense.
> The works of
> Richardson, Adler & Sullivan, Burnham & Root, et al. occupy a style
> distinct from what I'd call Modernism.
Just because a building was designed "during the Modern Period" doesn't
classify it as Modern. Richardson's work is referred to "Richarson
Romanesque" and it was Burham who conceived the "Neo-Classicisist" Chicago
World's Fair and shoved Sullivan's Transportation Center to a remote site
in the rear. Sullivan was vey much a Modernist (America's first). He
eschued any form of historical style for one based on Modern technology
(the skyscraper, steel frame rather than loadbearing construction and
large expanses of space and glass. Wright was his pupil and
continued/expounded upon Sullivan's work.
> Wright, although a
> contemporary of van der Rohe and Le Corbu, would not easily fit into
> the label Modernist, in my opinion.
Wright's work, accepted in Europe before the U.S.A., classified by
everyone I've know but you as an extreme Modernist, influenced Theo Von
Doesburg's school in Amsterdam, which principles led to the Bauhaus some
years latter. Wright was way ahead of Meis and Corbu, became
contemporaries later.
> snip
>
> >> The only value most modernist
> >> buildings will have will be to teach future generations how appalling
> >> architecture can be when it forces humanity to adapt to it rather than
> >> vice versa.
> >
> >Which is a totaly biased statement 'cause you don't like how it "looks"
> >and therefore could care less if it really functions.
> >
> >Are you ready to tear down the Christian Science Center, a thing of great
> >beauty and a tribute to Functionality?
>
> And a knockoff of St. Peters to boot.
Really? The tall slender Admin Bldg., the curved pre-school building and
the beutifull arcaded educational building, all arranged with the
ecclectic Mother Church in on of the greates urban compositions of the
20th C.?
> Wanna dump the Crysler Building,
> >Empire State Building the Museums of Modern Art, Whitney and Guggenheim?
>
> Actually, I would tear down the Whitney. Brutalism has never won me
> over. And the Whitney as a building is not even in the same universe
> as Wright's Guggenheim, IMHO.
As any artists who's shown in them both, better yet any past curator of
the Guggenheim, which FUNCTIONS (your original argument against moderism),
and you'll find the Whitney on top. The Guggenheim has undergone
restoration after restoration because because of it's poor detailing and
use of materials while the elegantly detailed Whitney, constructed of rich
permanent materials has not.
Of all the great buildings designed by Wright, his museum is his most
quaetionable, and that it was actuall HE who implemented it is in serious
question (it was at the end of his life).
>
> >Lets tear down Paris' Bibliotece Nationale, and the Eiffel Tower, much
> >less the Centre Pompidou, now visited by more peole annually that Eiffel's
> >tower? And that aweful Seagrams building, which plaza more New Yorkers
> >occupy per square foot during the day than any other in the city. Wanna
> >tear down the Hancock tower that is deliberately annoymous out of respect
> >for Trinity Church, which fcade, along with the Coply PLaza, it relects,
> >and save the non-modern/post-modern piece of crap by Phillip Johnson which
> >tacky ornateness has obliterated the profile Richardson's masterpiece
> >(Trinity Church) from the Boston Public Library (except in the afternoon
> >glow of west sunlight).
>
> Here, here. Down with the "New" wing of the BPL. Its an insult to
> Boston.
Amen. Done by Phillip Johnson who declared after completion of the
Seagrams Building that "The Internation Style is dead; there nothing left
but to express history".
>
> Tear down Kahn's Salk Institute with four daily
> >tours because it is masterpiece of form and function eaually considered? I
> >could go on, but the list is too long and the saved for "petrieid turds'
> >sake could become 12 volumes.
> >
> >Nelson
>
> As above, the reaction seems to be against that particularly style of
> the modern period which started with and grew from the Bauhaus and the
> International style, which is often equated with Modernism, when it is
> more of style within the period.
>
> That said, I think the criticism of the International style is
> partially merited, if only in its expression by hack designers.
Amen,amen! Hack architects screw up every good idea they touch.
> Its functionality is sometimes its undoing. Being a cheap, easy to
> reproduce style has resulted in a lot a cheap looking, over imitated,
> identical looking buildings.
Just as you can find along any 19th C. Main Street.
> The World Trade Center in NY is gross
> looking and without soul no matter how you cut it.
The most hated building in NY and for good reason.
> Sometimes you need
> to tear down the old to make way for something fresh and exciting.
> Would the Paris of today be as it is if Napolean III hadn't demolished
> half the old city to build von Haussman's avenues and boulevards. (of
> course, it comes with a price, sometimes far too steep, like Boston's
> West End.)
An Scolly square, as well.
>
> Hmmm, I think I've opined myself into a circle...
Of course, and it's not just you; it's the nature of the beast and the
variable, unfortunately, is who is doing the work, and that person or firm
isn't always consistent. The very same firm that did the Christian Science
complex did the horrendous Government Center Plaza. Go figure!
>
Enjoyed the dialog. We've probably bored the Be-Jesus out of the rest of
the newsgroup.
Cheers
Nelson
D Banks
Colin R. Leech wrote:
>
> D Banks (david...@gdt.com) writes:
> > West Philly Slumlord wrote:
> >>
> >> Trains dump you right downtown;
> >> airports tend to be pretty far away.
> >
> > Too bad the planners in Ottawa didn't know this, eh Colin?
>
> Yes, indeed.
>
> (For the benefit of most readers: the National Capital Commission (federal
> government agency) moved the intercity train station from downtown to the
> suburbs in 1967 as a 'beautification' project. Instead of ugly rail lines
> along the side of the scenic Rideau Canal, there is now a two lane parkway
> and parkland on each side.
>
> The train station is now right on the Transitway, only there are few
> trains left to serve! I've always wondered how much impact the Transitway
> could have had on intercity train service had it been in existance 20
> years earlier when the station was first moved. FWIW, the airport is now
> the southern terminus of the Transitway as well, a mere 20-25 minutes from
> downtown.)
>
Certainly, the old rail-lines are nicer looking now as a park. I'm not
entirely convinced that the beautification necessitated removing the
passenger line, though. Maybe for saftey, though. The old station
certainly has more "train heritage" than the new one, and is much closer
to the centre of town (actually, it _is_ the centre of town).
I only posted this as I found the new station very inconvenient on my
one and only train trip to Ottawa in early June, 1983 (Read between the
lines Colin, you may figure out why I was there :) I don't think the
Transitway was in place then.
>only there are few
> trains left to serve!
Hmm, probably more than the newly resotored ex-CN Via station here in
Vancouver. We're down to 3 Via trains per week. You must still have a
few trains a day to Toronto, plus some to Montreal, though Montreal
trains only run on one side of the Ottawa River now, I think.
Nelson S. Benzing
> Colin R. Leech wrote:
> >
> > D Banks (david...@gdt.com) writes:
> > > West Philly Slumlord wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Trains dump you right downtown;
> > >> airports tend to be pretty far away.
> > >
> > > Too bad the planners in Ottawa didn't know this, eh Colin?
> >
> > Yes, indeed.
> >
> > (For the benefit of most readers: the National Capital Commission (federal
> > government agency) moved the intercity train station from downtown to the
> > suburbs in 1967 as a 'beautification' project. Instead of ugly rail lines
> > along the side of the scenic Rideau Canal, there is now a two lane parkway
> > and parkland on each side.
> >
> > The train station is now right on the Transitway, only there are few
> > trains left to serve! I've always wondered how much impact the Transitway
> > could have had on intercity train service had it been in existance 20
> > years earlier when the station was first moved. FWIW, the airport is now
> > the southern terminus of the Transitway as well, a mere 20-25 minutes from
> > downtown.)
> >
>
> Certainly, the old rail-lines are nicer looking now as a park. I'm not
> entirely convinced that the beautification necessitated removing the
> passenger line, though.
The European solution: relocate all but passenger operations to locations
at the edge of the city where they can better interface with barges and
trucks. Use the abandoned (usually the majority of track space) freight
lines for new civic amenities.
Nelson
Geenius at Wrok
On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Nelson S. Benzing wrote:
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.970409...@magik.albany.net>,
> Geenius at Wrok <gee...@magik.albany.net> wrote:
>
> > The only value most modernist
> > buildings will have will be to teach future generations how appalling
> > architecture can be when it forces humanity to adapt to it rather than
> > vice versa.
>
> Which is a totaly biased statement 'cause you don't like how it "looks"
> and therefore could care less if it really functions.
On the contrary -- I kinda like the way many modernist buildings LOOK. I
just abhor how they FEEL. Y'know, on the INSIDE.
> Are you ready to tear down the Christian Science Center, a thing of great
> beauty and a tribute to Functionality? Wanna dump the Crysler Building,
You're categorizing the Chrysler Building as "modernist"? OK, maybe I'm
thinking more specifically of International Style. Art deco doesn't enter
my head when I think of modernism.
Point being, there are all kinds of examples one can find of modernist
buildings that worked for their inhabitants, but even so, they amount to
about half a percent of what was built, as anyone who has set foot on a
college campus that built anything in the '60s and '70s can attest. The
remainder is decidedly not worth saving.
(Keep in mind that, as I'm writing this, I'm seated less than one mile
from Nelson Rockefeller's Empire State Plaza, the building of which
entailed the demolition of about one-third of the city -- 90 acres for the
plaza itself, the rest for the highways people thought they'd need to
bring in the workers.)
ab...@tiac.net
>In article <334d387d....@news.tiac.net>, ab...@tiac.net wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 9 Apr 1997 07:48:31 -0400, Geenius at Wrok
>> <gee...@magik.albany.net> wrote:
>>
>> snip
>> >Well, let's not get so caught up in POTENTIAL aesthetic value that we
>> >ignore FUNCTIONAL value, which most modernist buildings are sorely lacking
>> >in. Let those that work well as comfortable human spaces remain, but if
>> >the rest are leveled, I won't shed a tear. The only value most modernist
>> >buildings will have will be to teach future generations how appalling
>> >architecture can be when it forces humanity to adapt to it rather than
>> >vice versa.
>>
>> Why even seperate the two? In earlier eras, human beings were the
>> standard against which aesthetics were judged. (Man is the Measure of
>> All Things) The proportions of building were to harmoniously relate
>> to each other in the same manner in which the parts of the human body
>> related to each other and to the body as a whole.
>
>A concept first stated Vitruvius, again by Michaelangelo and then total
>forgotten through the 19th C. until a Modernist named LeCorbusier,
>reinserted it in the "Modular".
>
>> One can still build
>> grand, massive spaces that feel intimate. The Dome of St. Peter's
>> Cathedral comes to mind, as well as the Hagia Sophia. Maybe we need
>> to build skyscapers as testaments to humankind and not to the power of
>> the corporation.
>A totally new twist, I must say, since the precedents you cite were
>testaments to the power of Organized Religion over the people.
True, but this does still not prevent the internal spaces of these
buildings from feeling intimate. Not in the sense of small and
secure, or scaled down, but designed in an ever widening, opening
sense of space through which one is not pressed down upon, but drawn
up into and made a part of. The void under the dome of St. Peters is
huge, but not oppressive. It lifts up one's spririt to the heavens
above. These are churches after all, which were often meant to bring
the feeling of heaven's call within the arms of the building as
testments to the grace of God made Flesh and Flesh assumed as Godhead.
(In addition to announcing the power and might of tyrannical
aristorcrat popes and cardinals with immense lust for flesh, wealth
and power. They were also killer tourist attractions in their time as
well, as Im sure you're aware)
ab...@tiac.net
On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:31:54 -0500, nben...@ix.netcom.com (Nelson S.
Benzing) wrote:
Near sighted thinking, for sure. But I have found appreciation in
much of the work of Burnham and Root. (Mainly before it became just
Burnham)
Sullivan was vey much a Modernist (America's first). He
>eschued any form of historical style for one based on Modern technology
>(the skyscraper, steel frame rather than loadbearing construction and
>large expanses of space and glass. Wright was his pupil and
>continued/expounded upon Sullivan's work.
True, but again, Sullivan's work is a far cry from that of the Bauhaus
designer. Sullivan always seemed to remember the need to keep his
building "organic", to use a favorite word of Wrights. I guess my
comments were directed to criticism expressed earlier in this thread
about "modernist" buildings which seemed to be a reaction to buidlings
influenced by the International style and other designers working in
mid-20 C., when a lot of the skyscrapers canyons of our urban areas
went up. If only the world could be Chicago...
>> Wright, although a
>> contemporary of van der Rohe and Le Corbu, would not easily fit into
>> the label Modernist, in my opinion.
>
>Wright's work, accepted in Europe before the U.S.A., classified by
>everyone I've know but you as an extreme Modernist, influenced Theo Von
>Doesburg's school in Amsterdam, which principles led to the Bauhaus some
>years latter. Wright was way ahead of Meis and Corbu, became
>contemporaries later.
>> snip
Wright eschewed the work of Corbu and most of the practioners of the
Bauhaus, and strongly disagreed with the direction they took modern
architecture. I'm familiar with his great influence on the beginnings
of the Modernist movement, but the divergence between his fully
developed style and that of Meis and Corbu is what I was directing my
comments to. Even Wrights rare work in tall buildings stands in stark
contrast to the work of International style designers.
>> >> The only value most modernist
>> >> buildings will have will be to teach future generations how appalling
>> >> architecture can be when it forces humanity to adapt to it rather than
>> >> vice versa.
>> >
>> >Which is a totaly biased statement 'cause you don't like how it "looks"
>> >and therefore could care less if it really functions.
>> >
>> >Are you ready to tear down the Christian Science Center, a thing of great
>> >beauty and a tribute to Functionality?
>>
>> And a knockoff of St. Peters to boot.
>
>Really? The tall slender Admin Bldg., the curved pre-school building and
>the beutifull arcaded educational building, all arranged with the
>ecclectic Mother Church in on of the greates urban compositions of the
>20th C.?
My fault. I was commenting solely on the Mother Church.
>> Wanna dump the Crysler Building,
>> >Empire State Building the Museums of Modern Art, Whitney and Guggenheim?
>>
>> Actually, I would tear down the Whitney. Brutalism has never won me
>> over. And the Whitney as a building is not even in the same universe
>> as Wright's Guggenheim, IMHO.
>
>As any artists who's shown in them both, better yet any past curator of
>the Guggenheim, which FUNCTIONS (your original argument against moderism),
>and you'll find the Whitney on top. The Guggenheim has undergone
>restoration after restoration because because of it's poor detailing and
>use of materials while the elegantly detailed Whitney, constructed of rich
>permanent materials has not.
Elegantly detailed? It a horrid blob of a concrete bunker squatting
like an overweight, pompous doge of Venice. As far as a curatorial
space, I've found, as have many art historians (my background), that
ones continuous, flowing experience with the pieces on display at the
Guggenheim works quite well, if the exhbiti is hung and chosen
properly.
That said, I'll just agree to disagree on this point.
Agreed, with one exception. Your average 19th C. Main Street lack the
technical ability to sore to the heights of 20 C Modernist
architecture. Combine hack design with 20, 30, 40 story tall
monstrosities and you get an oftimes overwhelmingly stark and numbing
experience.
>> The World Trade Center in NY is gross
>> looking and without soul no matter how you cut it.
>
>The most hated building in NY and for good reason.
>
>> Sometimes you need
>> to tear down the old to make way for something fresh and exciting.
>> Would the Paris of today be as it is if Napolean III hadn't demolished
>> half the old city to build von Haussman's avenues and boulevards. (of
>> course, it comes with a price, sometimes far too steep, like Boston's
>> West End.)
>
>An Scolly square, as well.
>>
>> Hmmm, I think I've opined myself into a circle...
>
>Of course, and it's not just you; it's the nature of the beast and the
>variable, unfortunately, is who is doing the work, and that person or firm
>isn't always consistent. The very same firm that did the Christian Science
>complex did the horrendous Government Center Plaza. Go figure!
>>
>Enjoyed the dialog. We've probably bored the Be-Jesus out of the rest of
>the newsgroup.
Ditto
>Cheers
Ditto. ;-)
>Nelson
Dave Dologite
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <334ee298...@news.tiac.net>, ab...@tiac.net wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:22:59 -0500, nben...@ix.netcom.com (Nelson S.
> Benzing) wrote:
>
> >In article <334d387d....@news.tiac.net>, ab...@tiac.net wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 9 Apr 1997 07:48:31 -0400, Geenius at Wrok
> >> <gee...@magik.albany.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> snip
> >> >Well, let's not get so caught up in POTENTIAL aesthetic value that we
> >> >ignore FUNCTIONAL value, which most modernist buildings are sorely lacking
> >> >in. Let those that work well as comfortable human spaces remain, but if
> >> >the rest are leveled, I won't shed a tear. The only value most modernist
> >> >buildings will have will be to teach future generations how appalling
> >> >architecture can be when it forces humanity to adapt to it rather than
> >> >vice versa.
> >>
Your point is well made. I personally find Richardson's Trinity Church,
Boston, or San Miniato del Monte, Florence, more intimate than St.
Peter's.
Nelson
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.970411...@magik.albany.net>,
Geenius at Wrok <gee...@magik.albany.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Nelson S. Benzing wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.970409...@magik.albany.net>,
> > Geenius at Wrok <gee...@magik.albany.net> wrote:
> >
> > > The only value most modernist
> > > buildings will have will be to teach future generations how appalling
> > > architecture can be when it forces humanity to adapt to it rather than
> > > vice versa.
> >
> > Which is a totaly biased statement 'cause you don't like how it "looks"
> > and therefore could care less if it really functions.
>
> On the contrary -- I kinda like the way many modernist buildings LOOK. I
> just abhor how they FEEL. Y'know, on the INSIDE.
>
>
> > Are you ready to tear down the Christian Science Center, a thing of great
> > beauty and a tribute to Functionality? Wanna dump the Crysler Building,
>
> You're categorizing the Chrysler Building as "modernist"? OK, maybe I'm
> thinking more specifically of International Style. Art deco doesn't enter
> my head when I think of modernism.
Check any history book and you'll find that Art Deco is classified as
Modern, following a vocabulary introduced in Paris in the 1920's called
"Arte Moderne". These buildings were built between 1930 and 1950 and
unless even very large (Rockerfeller Center, Empire State, etc.) or occur
in abundance (South Beach or Kansas City) are among those that I was
objecting to being torn down today by histericrats.
You ARE thinking particulary of the International Style, which got
transplanted to the U.S. when Hitler ran Walter Gropius off to Harvard and
Mies van der Rohe to I.I.T.. Gropius was never much of a designer, but
rather an educator. Mies was a dreamer (romantic technology) and I respect
the few buildings he actually produced. The overwhelming majority of what
followed was "trendy" and largely crap. When Bunschaft (chief designer at
Skidmore, Owings and Merril) was asked when he'd stop designing glass
boxes, he said: "When I get one right.":-)
Le Corbusier, BTW, was not of the Bauhaus and was a genius. His only work
in the U.S., the Carpenter Center at Harvard, is playful, rich, warm and
is loved by everyone I've ever known to work in it. If you ever get to the
south of France, you'll find the chapel at Ronchamp and monastery at La
Tourette among the most spiritual places you could imagine. Things done by
others "in his name" are horrendous. His works were in concrete, BTW,
because the French Government would not allow him to use steel because it
was too needed for other things during the reconstruction of Europe. He
later came to love it, and one of his protoges, a Yugoslav, was the actual
designer of the Christian Science Complex, Pei having had only to with the
curve on the building at the west end.
>
> Point being, there are all kinds of examples one can find of modernist
> buildings that worked for their inhabitants, but even so, they amount to
> about half a percent of what was built, as anyone who has set foot on a
> college campus that built anything in the '60s and '70s can attest. The
> remainder is decidedly not worth saving.
>
> (Keep in mind that, as I'm writing this, I'm seated less than one mile
> from Nelson Rockefeller's Empire State Plaza, the building of which
> entailed the demolition of about one-third of the city -- 90 acres for the
> plaza itself, the rest for the highways people thought they'd need to
> bring in the workers.)
My heart bleeds for you, particularly if your desk is faced that way.
Albany Mall really tops Boston's Government Center Plaza or Prudential
Center as just about the best example of meglamania as one can find
anywhere. H & A (never recognized as a particulary outstanding firm) must
have been hired because its predecessors did Rockefeller Center, decades
before.
Nelson
Rachel A
ab...@tiac.net wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Apr 1997 07:48:31 -0400, Geenius at Wrok
><gee...@magik.albany.net> wrote:
>
>snip
>>Well, let's not get so caught up in POTENTIAL aesthetic value that we
>>ignore FUNCTIONAL value, which most modernist buildings are sorely lacking
>>in.
>
>Why even seperate the two? In earlier eras, human beings were the
>standard against which aesthetics were judged. (Man is the Measure of
>All Things) The proportions of building were to harmoniously relate
>to each other in the same manner in which the parts of the human body
>related to each other and to the body as a whole. One can still build
>grand, massive spaces that feel intimate. The Dome of St. Peter's
>Cathedral comes to mind, as well as the Hagia Sophia. Maybe we need
>to build skyscapers as testaments to humankind and not to the power of
>the corporation.
Yes, but their homes, at least the homes of the nobility were also
built on that grand and glorious scale and were absolutely appalling
to live in. Even with scads of cheap labor they were uncomfortable
and are still uncomfortable unless radically remodelled inside with
modern conveniences and insulation and plumbing, etc.
Rachel Aschmann
rac...@azstarnet.com
http://www.azstarnet.com/~rachela/rachel.html
"If you can keep your head when all about you
are losing theirs and blaming it on you.
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
And make allowance for their doubting, too"
- Rudyard Kipling -
John Hascall
}> I.M.Pei, who rejected the sensitive analysis and sizing suggested by a man
}> who'll be long remembered after Pei is long forgotten. His name was Kevin
}> Lynch (M.I.T.).
}The more I hear about the work of I.M. Pei, the more I believe that he
}should suffer the architectural equivalent of being disbarred. But I
}suppose that's a topic for alt.architecture.
Well, he did do a nice job on the Des Moines Art Center, anyway...
John
--
John Hascall, Software Engr. Shut up, be happy. The conveniences you
ISU Computation Center demanded are now mandatory. -Jello Biafra
mailto:jo...@iastate.edu
http://www.cc.iastate.edu/staff/systems/john/welcome.html <-- the usual crud
Exile on Market Street
> Its a shame. Modernism as a distinct period like Baroque or
> NeoClassicism is due (or actually in the middle of) a reassessment of
> its merits and failures.(Having passed through Post-Modernism,
> DeConstrucitvism, etc. and hopefully arriving on the other side the
> better for the trip) Its unfortunate that the excesses and banalities
> of the International style and Modernism as a whole have turned off so
> many to the point that we risk destroying or scarring truly fine works
> of the period.
PSFS and the Seagram Building should both be safe. (PSFS will become a
hotel.) Ditto IIT.
I know the list is much longer than these three plus Lever House and the
original MoMA building, but how many other Modernist buildings worth saving
are truly being threatened now?
Curious as much as incredulous...
> Dave Dologite
> Allston Brighton CDC
--Sandy, former Allstonian
__________________________________________________________________________
Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
University Relations, U. of Pennsylvania 215.898.1423/fax 215.898.1203
I speak for myself here, not for Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
This week, Sandy plays with trains and learns something in the process:
http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/features/1997/040897/trainlab.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Newman
In article <smiths-ya02408000...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
smi...@pobox.upenn.edu (Exile on Market Street) wrote:
> PSFS and the Seagram Building should both be safe. (PSFS will become a
> hotel.) Ditto IIT.
What is PSFS?
--
Ron Newman rne...@cybercom.net
Web: http://www.cybercom.net/~rnewman/home.html
Nelson S. Benzing
In article <smiths-ya02408000...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
smi...@pobox.upenn.edu (Exile on Market Street) wrote:
> In article <334ad144....@news.tiac.net>, ab...@tiac.net wrote:
>
>
> > Its a shame. Modernism as a distinct period like Baroque or
> > NeoClassicism is due (or actually in the middle of) a reassessment of
> > its merits and failures.(Having passed through Post-Modernism,
> > DeConstrucitvism, etc. and hopefully arriving on the other side the
> > better for the trip) Its unfortunate that the excesses and banalities
> > of the International style and Modernism as a whole have turned off so
> > many to the point that we risk destroying or scarring truly fine works
> > of the period.
>
> PSFS and the Seagram Building should both be safe. (PSFS will become a
> hotel.) Ditto IIT.
>
> I know the list is much longer than these three plus Lever House and the
> original MoMA building, but how many other Modernist buildings worth saving
> are truly being threatened now?
>
> Curious as much as incredulous...
There is a genre of modernist buildings that are not monuments but a part
of the fabric of our cities that are worth saving but are threatened in
districts being revitalized even though they are aesthetically and
functionally well composed, are more easily adaptible because they have no
loadbearing walls, are more easily upfitted for plumbing and electrical
systems, have near-code emergency exiting and even elevators. They aren't
accepted because of currently trendy Neo-Traditionalism that seems to
think that, except for Art Deco, *traditional* is 19th C. or earlier.
NYC is chock-full of apartment houses, for example, built in the
1950's/early 1960s, usually out of white or buff brick with large windows
that actually provide *daylight* (as do the warehouses of SOHO), they have
deep occupiable balconies, sometimes have roof gardens and retail at the
first floor. They are the paradigm of Le Corbusier, not Mies.
I'm thinking in particular of the white glazed apartment building at the
corner of 3rd Ave & 9th. It is on the north side of 9th from Cooper Union
(Engineering) itself, a nice simple buff brick building, well composed
with the horizontal language of Frank Lloyd Wright or Richard Nuetra. Both
were probably built in the 1950's.
Today, across 3rd Ave. from this wonderfully simple but well-composed
daylighted building with retail at the ground floor, is a 1990s NYU
dormitory building called Alumni Hall. It is red and buff brick with all
that banding (buff) that has become so cliche in trying to make buildings
using modern long-span structural systems look like it has loadbearing
walls, along with a dirth of punched windows that add to the ellusion,
while simultaneously producing a dim, *lights-always-on* CLAUSTRPHOBIC
dormitory room beyond.
There are the daylighted buff brick warehouses with green glass ribboned
windows, the banks and office buildings built with rich textured Roman
(skinny and long) red brick or stone, again well daylighted (am I
desribing the building you're in or nearby?), with a transparent entrance
and often a vertical element (stair or elevator) adjacent the shoots up
the high of the building and beyond. This aesthetic is very American, and
its source, in compositional priciples, is Frank Lloyd Wright.
In Charlotte, many of these buildings are being "covered up" with
styrofoam to make *pediments*, *columns*, *cornices*, etc. and sprayed
with epoxies to make them look like stucco or stone. Fortunately, this
stuff, like the metal screens they put over rich 19th C. buildings, can ne
removed one day.
>
Nelson
Marty Bernard
New Jersey Kickoffs Station Car Project, Joins National Station Car
Association
April 15, 1997
The New Jersey Department of Transportation and NJ TRANSIT
are kicking off New Jersey’s station car demonstration
“Project:Power Commute,” on April 18 at the New Jersey
Transit's Morristown Station. Governor Christine Todd Whitman
and U.S. Secretary of Transportation Rodney E. Slater will
participate in the event.
Station cars are battery-powered cars used for access and egress from
transit stations and for other local trips. Project:Power Commute
will have thirty station cars, ten at each of three stations.
John J. Haley, Jr., N.J. Commissioner of Transportation, said of
Project:Power Commute, “We need innovative ways to meet the
demand for clean air and efficient transportation in New Jersey.
The Project demonstrates our commitment to the environment and
improving our transit system. We cannot build our way out of
congestion, so we need to better utilize our rail investment and
improve transit access. Electric station cars can help us meet these
goals. Project:Power Commute is a ‘test drive’ into the future."
Victoria Nerenberg, President of the National Station Car Association,
observed, “We have been working with the Project:Power Commute
staff for over a year and are glad their vision and efforts are about
to
begin paying off. We look forward to comparing their experience with
that of other station car demonstrations so we can continue to learn
how
to fully develop the station car concept.”
Shirley A. DeLibero, Executive Director of NJ TRANSIT, said of
station cars, "We strive to be in the forefront of transit innovation.
What we will learn today can make a difference tomorrow.
Project:Power Commute can help establish our state as a technology
leader and demonstrates our ability to work with New Jersey business
and the commuting public."
Project:Power Commute recently joined the National Station Car
Association so it can be part of the Association members’ joint effort
to
develop the station car concept into a commercially viable
transportation
service.
When asked why they want to be part of the Association, Ms. DeLibero
said, “We believe the National Station Car Association can improve
transit opportunities and pave the way for cleaner air and economic
development." Mr. Haley said it was because “the National Station
Car Association is laying the groundwork for commuting alternatives.”
For more information on Project:Power Commute, please visit
http://www.stncar.com/nj.html. Information on the station car concept
and the National Station Car Association is at http://www.stncar.com.
--
Marty Bernard
Oakland, California
To find out about a new form of personal urban transportation
please visit the Information Pages of the National Station Car
Association at http://www.stncar.com which are updated periodically.
Exile on Market Street
[Removing the transport newsgroups from the followups as this discussion
has moved far from their subjects.]
In article <nbenzing-150...@cha-nc5-20.ix.netcom.com>,
nben...@ix.netcom.com (Nelson S. Benzing) wrote:
>
> There is a genre of modernist buildings that are not monuments but a part
> of the fabric of our cities that are worth saving but are threatened in
> districts being revitalized even though they are aesthetically and
> functionally well composed, are more easily adaptible because they have no
> loadbearing walls, are more easily upfitted for plumbing and electrical
> systems, have near-code emergency exiting and even elevators. They aren't
> accepted because of currently trendy Neo-Traditionalism that seems to
> think that, except for Art Deco, *traditional* is 19th C. or earlier.
>
[...NYC buildings...]
>
> There are the daylighted buff brick warehouses with green glass ribboned
> windows, the banks and office buildings built with rich textured Roman
> (skinny and long) red brick or stone, again well daylighted (am I
> desribing the building you're in or nearby?), with a transparent entrance
> and often a vertical element (stair or elevator) adjacent the shoots up
> the high of the building and beyond. This aesthetic is very American, and
> its source, in compositional priciples, is Frank Lloyd Wright.
Well, except for the fact that the building is constructed entirely of
concrete slabs (its two wings connected by glass breezeways on either side
of a poured ribbed-concrete central elevator shaft), that does pretty much
describe the building I'm in.
And yes, the rooms get lots of natural light. On my side of the building,
which faces south, perhaps *too much* natural light: our desks are against
the window walls, which heat things up quite well when the sun's angle is
right. We've lost three 20-inch color monitors since we moved in (the
monitors' manuals state that they must be kept out of direct sunlight).
__________________________________________________________________________
Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
University Relations, U. of Pennsylvania 215.898.1423/fax 215.898.1203
I speak for myself here, not for Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
"One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief
that one's work is terribly important."
--------------------------------------------------------Bertrand Russell--
Marc Dufour
==============================================================
nben...@ix.netcom.com (Nelson S. Benzing)
écrivit le - wrote on Sat, 12 Apr 1997 09:59:25 -0500:
--------------------------------------------------------------
...
>the few buildings he actually produced. The overwhelming majority of what
>followed was "trendy" and largely crap. When Bunschaft (chief designer at
>Skidmore, Owings and Merril) was asked when he'd stop designing glass
>boxes, he said: "When I get one right.":-)
The three blind mies... :) :) :) :)
- -------- Vive le Quebec Libre! (C. De Gaulle, Montreal, 1967) -------- -
If you think your Internet service sucks, you ought to see the Extra
Shitty Class(TM) with Super-Slow(TM) and Hyper-Hoppy(TM) features,
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~~ Last dive: Frozen lake Willoughby (Vermont), 14 mfw ~~
Marc Dufour -- [\] ACUC6 31874 - TDI CD-0197 -- http://www.accent.net/emdx
Robert Coe
On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:47:15 GMT, em...@accent.net (Marc Dufour) wrote:
: >the few buildings he actually produced. The overwhelming majority of what
: >followed was "trendy" and largely crap. When Bunschaft (chief designer at
: >Skidmore, Owings and Merril) was asked when he'd stop designing glass
: >boxes, he said: "When I get one right.":-)
:
: The three blind mies... :) :) :) :)
I believe you're thinking of former U.S. Pettifogger General Ed ("Three
Blind") Meese. ;^)
--
___ _ - Bob
/__) _ / / ) _ _
(_/__) (_)_(_) (___(_)_(/_____________________________________ b...@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, MA 01776-2120 USA ** 508-443-3265
Nelson S. Benzing
> On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:47:15 GMT, em...@accent.net (Marc Dufour) wrote:
> : >the few buildings he actually produced. The overwhelming majority of what
> : >followed was "trendy" and largely crap. When Bunschaft (chief designer at
> : >Skidmore, Owings and Merril) was asked when he'd stop designing glass
> : >boxes, he said: "When I get one right.":-)
> :
> : The three blind mies... :) :) :) :)
>
> I believe you're thinking of former U.S. Pettifogger General Ed ("Three
> Blind") Meese. ;^)
I was truly confused by this this posting (possibly intended to so
confuse). Thanks for the help.
Nelson