Road trip report: New York, NY to Baltimore, MD/Washington, DC and back

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David J. Greenberger

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May 30, 2002, 2:04:24 PM5/30/02
to
Thursday, May 23, 2002
New York, NY to Owings Mills, MD

Route: George Washington Bridge (SB I-95/US 1/US 9) upper level - WB US
46 - SB New Jersey Turnpike (I-95) Western Spur - SB TRUCK US 1&9 - SB
US 1&9 express - SB NJ 81 - SB New Jersey Turnpike (I-95) car lanes - WB
I-278 - SB US 1 - confusion in Trenton - SB NJ 29 - EB I-195 - WB I-195
- NB NJ 29 - local streets - Trenton Makes Bridge - SB PA 32 - SB
Pennsylvania Avenue - SB US 1 - SB I-95 - SB I-495 - SB I-95 (Delaware
Turnpike) - NB DE 896 - WB DE 4 - WB DE 2 - SB MD 279 - WB I-95 (JFK
Memorial Highway) - OuL I-695 - SB I-83 - city streets - US 40 (former
I-170) - MLK Boulevard - SB I-395 - SB I-95 - NB I-95 - NB I-395 - city
streets - NB I-83 - OuL I-695 - NB I-795

Many Amocos in New Jersey now sport the new BP color scheme. Some still
have Amoco signs; others are fully BP, although ads for Amoco motor oil
are posted.

The ramp from US 46 to the Turnpike is sufficiently twisty that I
wouldn't be able to map it out without the assistance of Terraserver or
similar.

According to the changeable overhead signs on Turnpike, the Eastern Spur
was closed and all traffic was directed to the Western Spur. Despite
that, most traffic used the Eastern Spur ramp. I didn't, so I don't
know what was going on, but even if the Eastern Spur was actually open,
isn't it only signed as closed when there's good reason to avoid it? So
why did so much traffic insist on going that way?

I got off the Turnpike at exit 15E, signed once on the ramp for Raymond
Boulevard (named after this newsgroup's very own Raymond from New
Jersey, perhaps?) and TRUCK US 1&9 in both directions, even though
following TRUCK US 1&9 south leads almost instantly to US 1&9 proper.
That's the way I went, in any case, and I merged into the express
roadway at my first opportunity. There are at least four temporary
"1&9" markers on the local roadway, pointing to u-turns, and there's one
permanent one on the ramp from Newark Airport.

Past the airport I got back onto the Turnpike, with the help of unsigned
NJ 81, but I got off right away at I-278, returning to US 1&9. Near
Woodbridge I pulled into a coin-op car wash on the right, but the owner
yelled at me (while the window was closed and the radio was on, so I had
to ask him to repeat himself) that the bay I had pulled into was closed
and that I should pull into a different one. So I pulled out and pulled
into a different one, and he ran up to me again, screaming that I had
set off his alarm because I entered from the wrong side, and that I
should back out and drive around to the other side. Instead I backed
out and left, figuring that I had no need to give my money to someone
who yells at his customers.

At the US 1 - US 9 interchange, SB US 9 crosses over NB US 1 on a Bailey
bridge.

At the Raritan River bridge near New Brunswick, the northbound roadway
is clearly the original one, the southbound one having been added much
later. Around that point was a 15-minute traffic jam.

Fast forward to Trenton. There is no signage whatsoever on US 1 for NJ
29, and signage on the streets is poor, so I had to drive around for a
while to find my way there. (I didn't have a street-level map of
Trenton.) In the meantime, I stopped at a Mobil(?) station where I
bought 5.831 gallons of 87 octane for $1.329 per (yielding about 33 mpg
on the previous tank -- not bad for mostly stop-and-go driving in an
eight-year-old car!). The pump jockey was wearing a New York City
Transit jacket and he tried to give me the expensive octane, but for a
chance I caught him in time. (Now do you understand why I prefer
self-service?) Many of the US 206 markers are narrow.

NJ 29 is an interesting drive, but it would be better termed a covered
roadway than a tunnel. I have no clue why trucks are prohibited nor why
anyone is calling for the demolition of the new road -- it leads to
existing controlled access highways at either end, no?

US 1 in Pennsylvania is the Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial Highway.
The cloverleaf at the US 1 - I-95 interchange has box-beam guardrail.
The Academy Road exit has no posted number. At one point there are two
blue street sign blades on the highway, marked S-70 and S-71 (IIRC). I
sat through at least 30 minutes of very slow traffic because the
eastbound Walt Whitman Bridge was closed and because a PennDOT truck was
blocking the right lane to allow for shoulder(!) work. There is no
access from SB I-95 to WB I-76 -- only to EB I-76, the Walt Whitman
Bridge, of which one lane was open by this time. Near exit 15, the
southbound roadway rides above the northbound roadway. Near the
airport, there are many very low streetlights. Approaching I-476,
motorists are instructed to turn on headlights for safety. Exit 3 has a
left-tabbed Clearview sign even though it's a right exit.

Most Delaware BGSs have rounded corners, as in New York, but the tabs
still jut off to the right. I-495 is a nice drive, but the median is
unprotected and very narrow near exit 3. Approaching the south end of
I-495 is a "TO EXIT 5" exit tab.

On I-95, exit 4B has a full-width tab. The service area is in the
median, and most of its advance signs are pentagonal. There's a
mixed-case "South" on the BGS for exit 1A, and there's no "LAST EXIT
BEFORE TOLL" warning, presumably because all of I-95 in Delaware is
considered a toll road. I lost about five minutes dodging the $1.25
(E-ZPass) toll.

I-95 in Maryland has two service areas in the median. Each is
repeatedly signed beginning seven miles in advance, and each has both an
Exxon and a Sunoco. The toll at the Susquehanna River is only charged
northbound.

I-695 bears "OUTER LOOP" and "INNER LOOP" plaques (hence my "OuL" and
"InL" directionals, which I think I will adopt for beltways in general).
It's generally a nice road, if a bit boring, but I object to the exit
numbers at the I-83 splits -- as a rule, if two freeways overlap for a
while and then split up, the split should not be assigned an exit
number. (OTOH, I-83 seems to be treated as two independent highways
that happen to be a few miles apart on I-695.)

I-83, the Jones Falls Expressway, is clearly an older highway. In
places it's twisty enough that the speed limit drops to 40 mph. Some
old signs remain, including a misleading triplet on an arch bridge
spanning the highway, one sign over each lane: "Maryland Ave / ONLY" -
"St Paul St" - "Guilford Ave" from right to left. I exited onto
Maryland Avenue and followed signs to WB US 40.

The aborted I-170 freeway, now part of US 40, is fascinating. The
condition of the surrounding neighborhood makes it clear why there were
objections to this highway, although some new housing is going up. At
the west end of the freeway, signs direct US 40 traffic to exit (even
though everybody has to exit), and two lanes are tightly squeezed onto a
one-lane ramp. The freeway itself continues briefly past this point and
ends at a wall. I turned around and retraced my steps, getting a few
pictures of useless and old BGSs. It's clear from the removed button
copy that MLK Boulevard was originally Harbor City Boulevard -- when was
the name changed?

The other must-see road feature in Baltimore is the south end of I-395,
whose interchange is entirely above water. There is no access from
I-395 to MD 295 -- the ramp from I-95 to MD 295 branches off before the
ramp from I-395 to I-95 merges in.

Near the convention center is a contraflow "trolley" (dressed-up bus, I
think, not the light rail line) lane. There are also a handful of
pedestrian overpasses over the surrounding streets.

On Fawn Street at President Street, all traffic must turn right. There
are four red lights; according to a sign, traffic may only move on
flashing red after stop. The lights are solid when pedestrians may
cross President and flash at other times; in other words, Fawn traffic
may only proceed when it's in conflict with moving President traffic.
This presented a challenge as President traffic was quite heavy.

By my original plans, I was going to head down to Washington and spend
some time driving around down there, but between the traffic jams and
the confusion in Trenton, it was much later than my plans had accounted
for, so instead I went straight to Owings Mills. I-795 is a
well-designed freeway with a subway line in the median. The exit 4
interchange is very complicated; fortunately, I had good directions
(namely, "get in the left lane of the ramp and don't change lanes until
you see a traffic light").

=-=-=-=

Friday, May 24, 2002
Owings Mills, MD to Washington, DC and back

Route: public transit

Look for this section of the report on misc.transport.urban-transit or
SubTalk; it's mostly off-topic here.

Driving down Red Run Boulevard, a five-lane lightly traveled road,
towards the train station, someone traveling the other way decided to
get into his far left lane -- i.e., my far right lane. After I flashed
my lights and honked my horn, he got back where he should have been.

In Washington, I walked the length of one of the untunneled segments of
I-395, taking pictures from both sides. I didn't see any I-95's, but
many original I-395 markers are peeling and perhaps will soon reveal
their original I-95 labels. Just north of H Street NE is what appears
to be an aborted northbound entrance ramp, "paved" in grass.

In general, I found Washington to be moderately pedestrian unfriendly
outside the major touristy area -- better than some places but worse
than others. Getting across Massachusetts Avenue near I-395 is a
challenge.

I spent some time at the National Building Museum, which I highly
recommend to all. Of interest to many here would be the _New World
Trade Center: Design Proposals_ exhibit, open through June 10. Most of
the proposals are plainly silly, but a few are worth seeing. Of
particular relevance here is _On Track: Transit and the American City_,
open through October 27. Like anything else, it has its biases (some of
which I agree with and others of which I don't), but without question
it's worth seeing.

I have no photographs past this point, and my remaining comments are
from memory, as I had others in the car. (Photographs will be posted
within a few weeks.)

=-=-=-=

Saturday, May 25, 2002
Owings Mills, MD to Baltimore, MD to Hunt Valley, MD to Owings Mills, MD

Route: SB I-795 - InL I-695 - SB I-83 - Eastern Avenue - NB I-95 - OuL
I-695 - NB I-83

Saturday night I went downtown briefly. Nothing much to comment on
except that Eastern Avenue seems to be a major Saturday night hangout
for much of Baltimore's large Black community.

Is Timonium related to aluminum?

SB I-83 is accessed from WB Shawan Road by either a right turn into a
loop or a left turn onto a direct ramp. Both are clearly signed.

=-=-=-=

Sunday, May 26, 2002
Owings Mills, MD to Dulles Airport to Washington, DC to Owings Mills, MD
to Hunt Valley, MD to Owings Mills, MD

Route: SB I-795 - OuL I-695 - SB I-95 - OuL Capital Beltway (I-495) - WB
Dulles Airport Access Road - EB Dulles Airport Access Road - EB I-66 -
EB Constitution Avenue and other city streets - SB I-395 - NB DC 295 -
NB Baltimore-Washington Parkway (MD 295) - InL I-695 - NB I-795 - SB
I-795 - InL I-695 - NB I-83 - SB I-83 - OuL I-695 - NB I-795

No comments on I-95. We stopped at an Exxon in Waterloo for gas: 10.429
gallons at $1.519 per. We didn't hit any of the Capital Beltway's
legendary traffic jams, but it was before 9:00 on a Sunday morning. For
a few minutes, a group of 20-25 Volkswagens zoomed by at about 90 mph.
(What's the hurry?) I must say, it is kind of neat to drive past toll
booths on an exclusive inner roadway.

In general, lane discipline in the Baltimore-Washington area is pretty
bad, but it really shows on the BWP, which has only two lanes each way.
Please, do everyone a favor and keep right except to pass!

=-=-=-=

Monday, May 27, 2002
Owings Mills, MD to Hunt Valley, MD to Baltimore, MD to Silver Spring,
MD to Owings Mills, MD

Route: SB I-795 - InL I-695 - (stop in Pikesville) - InL I-695 - NB I-83
- SB I-83 - OuL I-695 - (stop in Pikesville) - SB I-83 - local streets -
SB I-895 - SB I-95 - OuL Capital Beltway (I-495) - local streets - InL
Capital Beltway (I-495) - NB I-95 - InL I-695 - NB I-795

Downtown Baltimore is overpriced, and it takes a lot of chutzpah,
especially after 9/11, to advertise the observation deck of a building
called the World Trade Center as "Top of the World," especially when the
aforementioned building is only 27 stories tall. But we saw a nice
juggling act.

The main reason I decided to stay until Tuesday was to avoid Memorial
Day traffic. It hadn't occurred to me that I'd hit it on I-95 returning
from Silver Spring -- in the rain, yet. Ugh.

=-=-=-=

Tuesday, May 28, 2002
Owings Mills, MD to Washington, DC to New York, NY

Route: SB I-795 - OuL I-695 - SB Baltimore-Washington Parkway (MD 295) -
local streets - public transit and foot - OuL Capital Beltway (I-495/NB
I-95) - NB Baltimore-Washington Parkway (MD 295) - NB Harbor Tunnel
Thruway (I-895) - NB I-95 - NB I-295 - NB New Jersey Turnpike car lanes
- EB Pulaski Skyway (NB US 1&9) - EB NJ 139 lower level - EB Holland
Tunnel

First I bought 8.047 gallons of gas ($1.459 per) at an Exxon in Owings
Mills.

Our plan was to drive down the BWP until we saw signs for the Greenbelt
Metro stations, but there were no such signs. Instead we got off at New
Carrollton and found our way to that Metro station. In the parking lot,
we followed the sign to "GUARANTEED PARKING" (how do they manage that?)
and found precisely one nonreserved empty space, way in the far corner,
thanks to the adjacent SUV that was crossing the line. (It had already
been ticketed.) My Honda Civic can fit just about anywhere, so I
crammed it in as close as possible to the SUV so the driver wouldn't
think of opening his door on that side. It turns out that there was
lots of HOV parking available much closer to the station entrance.

Remarks about Metro will, again, be posted elsewhere.

Parking rates were $2 with proof of a Metro ride or $6 without.
Apparently the fee is waived before 3pm; it was about 2:45, and I tried
to hand the attendant my $2, but he glanced at his watch and waved me
though.

The Harbor Tunnel Thruway is reminiscent of the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
There is one exit after the toll but before the tunnel itself. The toll
is a perfectly reasonable $1, well worth not having to circle to the
west on I-695 or drive through downtown.

The northbound toll at the Susquehanna River is a whopping $4, with no
E-ZPass discount. Wow! That's more than the George Washington Bridge
toll was a year and a half ago, and it's the same as the current
off-peak E-ZPass toll there. Despite that, traffic on I-95 was quite
heavy.

The Delaware Memorial Bridge is a great drive. The confusing exit 1B-1C
complex is *the* place to buy gas; all four stations (Flying J, Exxon,
Pilot, Mobil) charged $1.199 per gallon for 87, and I got 7.296 gallons
at the Exxon.

Unlike I-95 in Maryland, the NJTP had very little traffic; it was well
worth the $3.85 toll.

I stopped at the Getty station on the Holland Tunnel approach to top off
the tank. My passenger wanted to pay with an American Express travelers
check, and according to him, any business that accepts American Express
must also accept American Express travelers checks. I asked the pump
jockey, and he said he did accept the card but not the travelers check.
Then he refused to accept a credit card since the charge was less than
$5, and when we finally paid cash, he stiffed us a penny. That's three
rules broken right there. Now do you understand why I prefer
self-service?

The trip remarkably took under four hours. As I said, we pulled out of
the New Carrollton station around 2:45. According to my E-ZPass
records, we hit the Harbor Tunnel toll at 3:11, the Susquehanna River
toll at 3:47, the NJTP exit toll at 6:22, and the Holland Tunnel toll at
6:36. (The Delaware toll hasn't been posted yet.)
--
David J. Greenberger
New York, NY

John R Cambron

unread,
May 30, 2002, 6:42:48 PM5/30/02
to

"David J. Greenberger" wrote:

<sniped>

>
> Tuesday, May 28, 2002
> Owings Mills, MD to Washington, DC to New York, NY
>
> Route: SB I-795 - OuL I-695 - SB Baltimore-Washington Parkway (MD 295) -
> local streets - public transit and foot - OuL Capital Beltway (I-495/NB
> I-95) - NB Baltimore-Washington Parkway (MD 295) - NB Harbor Tunnel
> Thruway (I-895) - NB I-95 - NB I-295 - NB New Jersey Turnpike car lanes
> - EB Pulaski Skyway (NB US 1&9) - EB NJ 139 lower level - EB Holland
> Tunnel
>
> First I bought 8.047 gallons of gas ($1.459 per) at an Exxon in Owings
> Mills.
>
> Our plan was to drive down the BWP until we saw signs for the Greenbelt
> Metro stations, but there were no such signs. Instead we got off at New
> Carrollton and found our way to that Metro station. In the parking lot,
> we followed the sign to "GUARANTEED PARKING" (how do they manage that?)
> and found precisely one nonreserved empty space, way in the far corner,
> thanks to the adjacent SUV that was crossing the line. (It had already
> been ticketed.) My Honda Civic can fit just about anywhere, so I
> crammed it in as close as possible to the SUV so the driver wouldn't
> think of opening his door on that side. It turns out that there was
> lots of HOV parking available much closer to the station entrance.

Greenbelt metrorail park and ride is directly accessible from the
interloop southbound only at exit 24 MD I-95/495 return is northbound
only. To access metrorail park and ride from the Baltimore Washington
Parkway use exit marked MD I-95/495 north Silver Spring/ Baltimore.
Stay in the excel decel lane and exit at exit 23 MD-201 Kenilworth
Avenue, turn right/ northbound at signal at end of ramp, from
Kenilworth Avenue, turn left a Cherrywood Lane (second traffic signal)
entrance in to Greenbelt metrorail park and ride is on right after
crossing over the bridge that carries Cherrywood Lane over the
Capitol Beltway MD I-95/495.

There is signage directing one to Greenbelt metrorail on the Capitol
Beltway from the south. However as I recall there is no signage of
any kind anywhere on the Baltimore Washington Parkway giving direction
to any metrorail stations.

> Remarks about Metro will, again, be posted elsewhere.

Patiently waiting.

<sniped>
--
======================================================================
John R Cambron
North Beach MD USA
camb...@chesapeake.net
======================================================================

Geoff Hatchard

unread,
May 30, 2002, 10:02:11 PM5/30/02
to
"David J. Greenberger" wrote

> I spent some time at the National Building Museum, which I highly
> recommend to all. Of interest to many here would be the _New World
> Trade Center: Design Proposals_ exhibit, open through June 10. Most of
> the proposals are plainly silly, but a few are worth seeing. Of
> particular relevance here is _On Track: Transit and the American City_,
> open through October 27. Like anything else, it has its biases (some of
> which I agree with and others of which I don't), but without question
> it's worth seeing.

Just wanted to note that I mentioned these exhibits at the National Building
Museum in an eariler post (sometime last week), and I wanted to second
David's opinion. Go see these exhibits, very interesting!

Geoff Hatchard


Scott M. Kozel

unread,
May 30, 2002, 10:53:06 PM5/30/02
to
"David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote:
>
> Downtown Baltimore is overpriced, and it takes a lot of chutzpah,
> especially after 9/11, to advertise the observation deck of a building
> called the World Trade Center as "Top of the World," especially when the
> aforementioned building is only 27 stories tall. But we saw a nice
> juggling act.

There are other World Trade Centers than the one in NYC, that were also
built as centers of world trade, and to facilitate world trade.

About World Trade Centers

'More than a building or an organization, a World Trade Center (WTC)
brings together business government agencies involved in international
trade, provides essential trade services and stimulates the economy of
the region it serves. A WTC puts all the services associated with
global commerce under one roof. A WTC address gives a business prime
and continuous access and exposure to all the services, organizations
and individuals essential for success in world trade. "A World Trade
Center in any city is a business shopping center, complementing and
supporting the existing services of private and government agencies",
explains World Trade Center Association (WTCA) President, Guy F.
Tozzoli. The purpose of the World Trade Center is to have information
available to businesses in a timely and coordinated manner. Exporting
for companies increases because of the immediate accessibility to
valuable expertise and energy created by a vibrant market place of
international trade activity.'

http://iserve.wtca.org/awtc/about.html
World Trade Centers Association


The Baltimore WTC was built in the 1970s, and it is the tallest
pentagonal building in the world at 425 feet tall. Undoubtedly, the
observation deck was named many years ago, so I don't see any slight in
the name.

--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com

David J. Greenberger

unread,
May 31, 2002, 1:48:19 AM5/31/02
to
"Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> writes:

> "David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote:
> >
> > Downtown Baltimore is overpriced, and it takes a lot of chutzpah,
> > especially after 9/11, to advertise the observation deck of a building
> > called the World Trade Center as "Top of the World," especially when the
> > aforementioned building is only 27 stories tall. But we saw a nice
> > juggling act.
>
> There are other World Trade Centers than the one in NYC, that were also
> built as centers of world trade, and to facilitate world trade.

I know.

> The Baltimore WTC was built in the 1970s, and it is the tallest
> pentagonal building in the world at 425 feet tall. Undoubtedly, the
> observation deck was named many years ago, so I don't see any slight in
> the name.

Before 9/11, "Top of the World" was a silly but harmless name, given
that the building is only 27 stories tall. After 9/11, it's downright
insulting. The name could and should have been changed. Top of
Baltimore, perhaps. Top of the World?

David J. Greenberger

unread,
May 31, 2002, 1:48:19 AM5/31/02
to
John R Cambron <*camb...@chesapeake.net*> writes:

> Greenbelt metrorail park and ride is directly accessible from the
> interloop southbound only at exit 24 MD I-95/495 return is northbound
> only. To access metrorail park and ride from the Baltimore Washington
> Parkway use exit marked MD I-95/495 north Silver Spring/ Baltimore.
> Stay in the excel decel lane and exit at exit 23 MD-201 Kenilworth
> Avenue, turn right/ northbound at signal at end of ramp, from
> Kenilworth Avenue, turn left a Cherrywood Lane (second traffic signal)
> entrance in to Greenbelt metrorail park and ride is on right after
> crossing over the bridge that carries Cherrywood Lane over the
> Capitol Beltway MD I-95/495.

Thanks. Now I know for next time! My street-detail map only covered DC
proper, so I didn't know where the station was in relation to the
highways.

> There is signage directing one to Greenbelt metrorail on the Capitol
> Beltway from the south. However as I recall there is no signage of
> any kind anywhere on the Baltimore Washington Parkway giving direction
> to any metrorail stations.

I didn't see any. I had seen enough signage for Metro stations over the
previous days that I assumed that a major park-and-ride station would
have been signed on all of the approaching highways. Guess not. No big
deal, though, since I found New Carrollton and its one (almost) empty
parking space.

David J. Greenberger

unread,
May 31, 2002, 1:49:16 AM5/31/02
to
"Geoff Hatchard" <hatchardR...@psu.NOSPAM.edu> writes:

> Just wanted to note that I mentioned these exhibits at the National
> Building Museum in an eariler post (sometime last week), and I wanted
> to second David's opinion. Go see these exhibits, very interesting!

Indeed you did, as I saw after I made my post. (I've fallen way behind
due to my travels.) I'm glad you enjoyed it as well. I had never even
heard of a museum, but I was drawn in by an ad for the transit exhibit I
saw on a Metro train.

The interior of the building alone makes a visit worthwhile.

Incidentally, I caught (and reported to the front desk) a major dating
error on one of the pieces in the transit exhibit. Somehow I doubt a
sign still found at some 1930's IND stations dates from around 1900!

Scott M. Kozel

unread,
May 31, 2002, 6:53:46 AM5/31/02
to

So if someone with the same name as you, cracked up and went around
shooting people, and it made worldwide news, would you change your
name? How about if the name was similar? "Windows on the World" is not
quite the same as "Top of the World". Besides, thousands of mountain
peaks are taller than any manmade building, so any such name is really
not exact, pre-911 or post 911. It's just a name. I really don't see
what 911 has to do with the name of the Baltimore WTC's observation
deck.

Brian ten Siethoff

unread,
May 31, 2002, 12:31:47 PM5/31/02
to
"David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote in message news:<kllma1e...@zork.plover.net>...

>
> On Fawn Street at President Street, all traffic must turn right. There
> are four red lights; according to a sign, traffic may only move on
> flashing red after stop. The lights are solid when pedestrians may
> cross President and flash at other times; in other words, Fawn traffic
> may only proceed when it's in conflict with moving President traffic.
> This presented a challenge as President traffic was quite heavy.

The two-phase red and "right on flashing red after stop" signals are
unique to Maryland as far as I know.

> I spent some time at the National Building Museum, which I highly
> recommend to all.

I LOVE the building museum. A must-see for any visitor to Washington
who's interested in architecture, urban planning, etc.



> SB I-83 is accessed from WB Shawan Road by either a right turn into a
> loop or a left turn onto a direct ramp. Both are clearly signed.

I wonder how many interchanges have two separate but clearly signed
entrances to the same direction of a road. Another that I can think
of is VA I-66 EB to I-495 NB and VA I-495 NB to I-66 WB (or was that
changed in the last round of construction?).

> Downtown Baltimore is overpriced,

(tourist trap)

> and it takes a lot of chutzpah,
> especially after 9/11, to advertise the observation deck of a building
> called the World Trade Center as "Top of the World," especially when the
> aforementioned building is only 27 stories tall. But we saw a nice
> juggling act.
>

?? I know of many places named "Top of the World" that are less
deserving, such as a retirement community consisting entirely of
low-rise condos (none more than 6 stories) in Pinellas County,
Florida. I think the name Top of the World is appropriate for a city
that makes a perfect and appropriate backdrop for John Waters movies.
Tragic and gaudy.

> Our plan was to drive down the BWP until we saw signs for the Greenbelt
> Metro stations, but there were no such signs. Instead we got off at New
> Carrollton and found our way to that Metro station. In the parking lot,
> we followed the sign to "GUARANTEED PARKING" (how do they manage that?)

"Guaranteed Parking" does not mean every vehicle arriving at New
Carrollton will find a parking spot (in fact, you can consider
yourself extremely fortunate). It means Metro has issued a limited
number of permits (but more permits than the number of available
parking spaces) for the "Guaranteed" spaces. You were probably better
off going to New Carrollton than Greenbelt, though, because Greenbelt
fills up faster than New Carrollton.

> It turns out that there was
> lots of HOV parking available much closer to the station entrance.

I think Maryland should advertise the HOV parking when the US 50 HOV
lanes open, if not sooner. A better use of variable message signs
than the date and time or "Buckle Up--It's the Law" or "Please Drive
Gently", IMHO. Were there HOV spots open? Just one more incentive
for people to carpool.

> The northbound toll at the Susquehanna River is a whopping $4, with no
> E-ZPass discount. Wow! That's more than the George Washington Bridge
> toll was a year and a half ago, and it's the same as the current
> off-peak E-ZPass toll there. Despite that, traffic on I-95 was quite
> heavy.

Although the toll happens to be collected at the end of the bridge,
the $4 toll funds a 50-mile section of I-95 (the JFK Memorial
Highway), plus the aforementioned travel plazas in the median of I-95.
I believe the Maryland Transportation Authority is responsible for
the entire stretch of I-95 from the I-95/I-895 split to the Delaware
Line. A $4 is more than reasonable, considering it's only collected
on one direction. That's $0.04 per mile, very comparable to the New
Jersey Turnpike.

Kevin Flynn

unread,
May 31, 2002, 3:26:18 PM5/31/02
to
"Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<3CF75672...@attbi.com>...

> I really don't see
> what 911 has to do with the name of the Baltimore WTC's observation
> deck.

You wouldn't.

Kenny Dancy

unread,
May 31, 2002, 3:36:13 PM5/31/02
to

"Brian ten Siethoff" <bt...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:9858348b.02053...@posting.google.com...

> "David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote in message
news:<kllma1e...@zork.plover.net>...
> >
> > On Fawn Street at President Street, all traffic must turn right. There
> > are four red lights; according to a sign, traffic may only move on
> > flashing red after stop. The lights are solid when pedestrians may
> > cross President and flash at other times; in other words, Fawn traffic
> > may only proceed when it's in conflict with moving President traffic.
> > This presented a challenge as President traffic was quite heavy.
>
> The two-phase red and "right on flashing red after stop" signals are
> unique to Maryland as far as I know.
>
> > I spent some time at the National Building Museum, which I highly
> > recommend to all.
>
> I LOVE the building museum. A must-see for any visitor to Washington
> who's interested in architecture, urban planning, etc.
>
> > SB I-83 is accessed from WB Shawan Road by either a right turn into a
> > loop or a left turn onto a direct ramp. Both are clearly signed.
>
> I wonder how many interchanges have two separate but clearly signed
> entrances to the same direction of a road. Another that I can think
> of is VA I-66 EB to I-495 NB and VA I-495 NB to I-66 WB (or was that
> changed in the last round of construction?).

There is also now two ways to go from I-66 East to I-495 South. They added
a road that runs from the HOV I-66 East to I-495 North entrance to the I-66
West to I-495 South ramp.


Scott M. Kozel

unread,
May 31, 2002, 5:35:13 PM5/31/02
to
fly...@rockymountainnews.com (Kevin Flynn) wrote:

>
> "Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> wrote:
>
> > I really don't see what 911 has to do with the name
> > of the Baltimore WTC's observation deck.
>
> You wouldn't.

I'll entertain an explanation.

--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites

Virginia/Maryland/Washington D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com

John R Cambron

unread,
May 31, 2002, 10:33:16 PM5/31/02
to

The one think that almost brought tears to my eyes was the large
black and white image of the Dupont Circle Station (A03) under
construction near the end of the exhibit. This image brings back
fond memories of the hundreds of the construction site tours I
made during the 1970s. Oh and BTW the image is of the south end
of the station 19th street entrance mezzanine.

There was reproduction of blue prints of one of the Capitol
Transit car barns. The prints were of the East Capitol Street
car barn, It was some years ago converted to condominiums.

John R Cambron

unread,
May 31, 2002, 10:49:43 PM5/31/02
to

Brian ten Siethoff wrote:
>
> "David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote in message news:<kllma1e...@zork.plover.net>...
> >
> > On Fawn Street at President Street, all traffic must turn right. There
> > are four red lights; according to a sign, traffic may only move on
> > flashing red after stop. The lights are solid when pedestrians may
> > cross President and flash at other times; in other words, Fawn traffic
> > may only proceed when it's in conflict with moving President traffic.
> > This presented a challenge as President traffic was quite heavy.
>
> The two-phase red and "right on flashing red after stop" signals are
> unique to Maryland as far as I know.
>
> > I spent some time at the National Building Museum, which I highly
> > recommend to all.
>
> I LOVE the building museum. A must-see for any visitor to Washington
> who's interested in architecture, urban planning, etc.
>
> > SB I-83 is accessed from WB Shawan Road by either a right turn into a
> > loop or a left turn onto a direct ramp. Both are clearly signed.
>
> I wonder how many interchanges have two separate but clearly signed
> entrances to the same direction of a road. Another that I can think
> of is VA I-66 EB to I-495 NB and VA I-495 NB to I-66 WB (or was that
> changed in the last round of construction?).

MD I-95 south to Capitol Beltway MD I-95/495 south there are 2
ramps the original right exit loop ramp that was built when
the interchange was built and the 2 lane left ramp and bridge
that was built in the 1980s.

Thought not marked on MD I-95 south as you approuch the
Capitol Beltway MD I-95/495 interchange, if you pass the the
old right exit ramp and go around the park and ride/ truck
inspection area there is another ramp that is part of the
original interchange that will also put you on MD I-95/495
south as well a ramp to MD I-495 west.

--

Kevin Flynn

unread,
May 31, 2002, 11:58:28 PM5/31/02
to
"Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@infi.net> wrote in message news:<3CF7EC91...@infi.net>...

> fly...@rockymountainnews.com (Kevin Flynn) wrote:
> >
> > "Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I really don't see what 911 has to do with the name
> > > of the Baltimore WTC's observation deck.
> >
> > You wouldn't.
>
> I'll entertain an explanation.

I'd bet that you wouldn't. I'd bet no one else reading this wonders.

Scott M. Kozel

unread,
Jun 1, 2002, 2:00:16 AM6/1/02
to
fly...@rockymountainnews.com (Kevin Flynn) wrote:

>
> "Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@infi.net> wrote:
> > fly...@rockymountainnews.com (Kevin Flynn) wrote:
> > > "Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I really don't see what 911 has to do with the name
> > > > of the Baltimore WTC's observation deck.
> > >
> > > You wouldn't.
> >
> > I'll entertain an explanation.
>
> I'd bet that you wouldn't. I'd bet no one else reading this wonders.

I'd bet that you are trolling. Come on, prove that you are not. Take
your best shot. Explain it.

Rush Wickes

unread,
Jun 1, 2002, 1:18:22 PM6/1/02
to

"Brian ten Siethoff" <bt...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:9858348b.02053...@posting.google.com...

> "David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote in message
news:<kllma1e...@zork.plover.net>...
>

> I think Maryland should advertise the HOV parking when the US 50 HOV
> lanes open, if not sooner. A better use of variable message signs
> than the date and time or "Buckle Up--It's the Law" or "Please Drive
> Gently", IMHO. Were there HOV spots open? Just one more incentive
> for people to carpool.

Didn't legislative action in Annapolis a few years ago ban further use of
HOV in the state? Articles in the Washingotn Post a few years ago
mentioned how underuse (and single occupant abuse) of the HOV lanes on I-270
in Montgomery County caused road rage incidents. The fourth lane on the
JFK Memorial Highway (I-95) on the southern end used to have signs reading
HOV Lane (with a future placard). These signs were removed and the lane
is used for general traffic. However, I have never had any congestion
problems on this highway aside from holiday related backups at the
northbound toll plaza at Havre de Grace.


> > The northbound toll at the Susquehanna River is a whopping $4, with no
> > E-ZPass discount. Wow! That's more than the George Washington Bridge
> > toll was a year and a half ago, and it's the same as the current
> > off-peak E-ZPass toll there. Despite that, traffic on I-95 was quite
> > heavy.
>
> Although the toll happens to be collected at the end of the bridge,
> the $4 toll funds a 50-mile section of I-95 (the JFK Memorial
> Highway), plus the aforementioned travel plazas in the median of I-95.
> I believe the Maryland Transportation Authority is responsible for
> the entire stretch of I-95 from the I-95/I-895 split to the Delaware
> Line. A $4 is more than reasonable, considering it's only collected
> on one direction. That's $0.04 per mile, very comparable to the New
> Jersey Turnpike.

The toll money collected goes not only to the upkeep of the JFK Memorial
Highway, but also for the possible future expansion of the roadway, such as
a new Tydings bridge across the Susquehanna and further interchange
improvements. Additionally, the toll revenues are pooled with the other
self-sustaining facilities (Ft. McHenry Tunnel and the Chesapeake Bay
Bridge) to fund improvements on those facilities whose traffic levels do not
generate enough on their own. Those facilities are the Baltimore Harbor
Tunnel, the Key Bridge, the Nice Bridge on US 301 and the Hatem Bridge on US
40.

--
Rush Wickes -- remove the '-' to reply via e-mail
Blacksburg, VA

gkowal

unread,
Jun 1, 2002, 2:10:41 PM6/1/02
to

"David J. Greenberger" wrote:

> Thursday, May 23, 2002
> New York, NY to Owings Mills, MD
>

> The ramp from US 46 to the Turnpike is sufficiently twisty that I
> wouldn't be able to map it out without the assistance of Terraserver or
> similar.
>

If you look at that ramp, you can see where US 46 originally connected to
the old beginning of the Turnpike, before I-95 carried it to the GWB.
From Westbound 46 it was a right hand circular ramp that is now grass and
maybe curb. When I-95 was extended the ramp moved East of the 95 overpass
and does those twists to provide North and South access, rather tah
Southbound only. I remember the early beginning/end of the NJPike at US46
from my hitchhiking to college in NYC days of the early 1970's.

> =-=-=-=
>
> Tuesday, May 28, 2002
> Owings Mills, MD to Washington, DC to New York, NY
>
>

> The northbound toll at the Susquehanna River is a whopping $4, with no
> E-ZPass discount. Wow! That's more than the George Washington Bridge
> toll was a year and a half ago, and it's the same as the current
> off-peak E-ZPass toll there. Despite that, traffic on I-95 was quite
> heavy.

Pretty sure that USED to be $2. Now I'm wondering what the adjacent US 40
bridge toll is, and whether it is one way or a two way toll.
Once in a while I used to take US40 past there, which is visible to the East
of I-95 over the Suzy-Q River. On that bridge, of which I forget the formal
name, they also seemed to have a discounted deal going for the regular
users, where you buy a certain amount of tokens at a reduced price.
Toward the west, US1 crosses over the Susquehanna with a single lane roadway
over the top of a dam, which I dam-well can't remember the name of just now.

Using US1, takes you quite a ways west of the I-95 corridor, about 40 miles
I'm guessing, but it'sthe first river crossing to the West of 95.


> Unlike I-95 in Maryland, the NJTP had very little traffic; it was well
> worth the $3.85 toll.

By that point, Northbound traffic spilts into I-95 through Delaware and
Pennsylvania and I-295 in NJ and the NJ Pike, so the traffic loading is
split among these roads.

>
> I stopped at the Getty station on the Holland Tunnel approach to top off
> the tank. My passenger wanted to pay with an American Express travelers
> check, and according to him, any business that accepts American Express
> must also accept American Express travelers checks. I asked the pump
> jockey, and he said he did accept the card but not the travelers check.
> Then he refused to accept a credit card since the charge was less than
> $5, and when we finally paid cash, he stiffed us a penny. That's three
> rules broken right there. Now do you understand why I prefer
> self-service?

Agreed.

GK


Daniel Salomon

unread,
Jun 1, 2002, 2:10:49 PM6/1/02
to
bt...@mail.utexas.edu (Brian ten Siethoff) wrote:
> The two-phase red and "right on flashing red after stop" signals are
> unique to Maryland as far as I know.

At Waterhouse Street and Massachusetts Avenue in Cambridge, MA,
there's a signal that's pretty similar. I think it turns all-red if a
pedestrian pushes the button. Buses are allowed to turn left on
flashing red onto Mass Ave, and the trackless trolley wires permit
this move as well, though no revenue buses make that left turn. It's
interesting to note that one of the two flashing reds is implemented
with an upside-down signal, i.e. the green is on top, though it never
lights up. The other signal, from top to bottom, is
red-yellow-flashing red.

Other interesting features of this intersection are the fact that the
last piece of Waterhouse, between Mass Ave and the "parking lane" of
Mass Ave, is one way eastbound with a contraflow westbound bicycle
lane. West of there Waterhouse is 2-way. This little piece of block
also contains 2 unrestricted parking spaces.

-Dan

SPUI

unread,
Jun 1, 2002, 4:12:35 PM6/1/02
to

"gkowal" <gkowal...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3CF90EC5...@earthlink.net...

>
> If you look at that ramp, you can see where US 46 originally connected to
> the old beginning of the Turnpike, before I-95 carried it to the GWB.
> From Westbound 46 it was a right hand circular ramp that is now grass and
> maybe curb. When I-95 was extended the ramp moved East of the 95 overpass
> and does those twists to provide North and South access, rather tah
> Southbound only. I remember the early beginning/end of the NJPike at US46
> from my hitchhiking to college in NYC days of the early 1970's.

http://web.mit.edu/spui/www/oldint/njtp.html#18e


Allen Seth Dunn

unread,
Jun 1, 2002, 3:08:39 PM6/1/02
to

"Brian ten Siethoff" <bt...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:9858348b.02053...@posting.google.com...
> "David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote in message
news:<kllma1e...@zork.plover.net>...
> >
> > On Fawn Street at President Street, all traffic must turn right. There
> > are four red lights; according to a sign, traffic may only move on
> > flashing red after stop. The lights are solid when pedestrians may
> > cross President and flash at other times; in other words, Fawn traffic
> > may only proceed when it's in conflict with moving President traffic.
> > This presented a challenge as President traffic was quite heavy.
>
> The two-phase red and "right on flashing red after stop" signals are
> unique to Maryland as far as I know.
>
> > I spent some time at the National Building Museum, which I highly
> > recommend to all.
>
> I LOVE the building museum. A must-see for any visitor to Washington
> who's interested in architecture, urban planning, etc.
>
> > SB I-83 is accessed from WB Shawan Road by either a right turn into a
> > loop or a left turn onto a direct ramp. Both are clearly signed.
>
> I wonder how many interchanges have two separate but clearly signed
> entrances to the same direction of a road. Another that I can think
> of is VA I-66 EB to I-495 NB and VA I-495 NB to I-66 WB (or was that
> changed in the last round of construction?).

No it wasn't. The cloverleaf ramp from I-495 North to I-66 West was kept
because the new ramp would require people trying to get from the US 50 Exit
to I-66 West to merge across four lanes of traffic in about a span of a 1/2
mile. Being how dangerous that would be, VDOT simply kept the old ramp. A
similar situation on the Capital Beltway is the I-95 Merge with the Inner
Loop of the Capital Beltway near Greenbelt.

Allen Seth Dunn

unread,
Jun 1, 2002, 3:02:48 PM6/1/02
to

"John R Cambron" <*camb...@chesapeake.net*> wrote in message
news:ufgdhf3...@corp.supernews.com...

Actually, I believe it is signed. It's mostly for people getting off at the
US 1 interchange (and signed as such) because of the almost impossible merge
across the highway that would be required for people trying to get from the
new I-95 South to I-95/495 South ramp.

Kevin Flynn

unread,
Jun 2, 2002, 12:14:18 AM6/2/02
to
"Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@infi.net> wrote in message news:<3CF862F0...@infi.net>...

> fly...@rockymountainnews.com (Kevin Flynn) wrote:
> >
> > "Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@infi.net> wrote:
> > > fly...@rockymountainnews.com (Kevin Flynn) wrote:
> > > > "Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I really don't see what 911 has to do with the name
> > > > > of the Baltimore WTC's observation deck.
> > > >
> > > > You wouldn't.
> > >
> > > I'll entertain an explanation.
> >
> > I'd bet that you wouldn't. I'd bet no one else reading this wonders.
>
> I'd bet that you are trolling. Come on, prove that you are not. Take
> your best shot. Explain it.

Now *you* are trolling. Get over it. To most people, the matter you
profess to "really don't see" is painfully obvious.

Scott M. Kozel

unread,
Jun 2, 2002, 12:32:42 AM6/2/02
to
"Allen Seth Dunn" <asd...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> "Brian ten Siethoff" <bt...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
> > I wonder how many interchanges have two separate but clearly signed
> > entrances to the same direction of a road. Another that I can think
> > of is VA I-66 EB to I-495 NB and VA I-495 NB to I-66 WB (or was that
> > changed in the last round of construction?).
>
> No it wasn't. The cloverleaf ramp from I-495 North to I-66 West was kept
> because the new ramp would require people trying to get from the US 50 Exit
> to I-66 West to merge across four lanes of traffic in about a span of a 1/2
> mile. Being how dangerous that would be, VDOT simply kept the old ramp. A
> similar situation on the Capital Beltway is the I-95 Merge with the Inner
> Loop of the Capital Beltway near Greenbelt.

Actually the left exit from I-495 North to I-66 West, was built as part
of the original Beltway in 1964. That part of the Beltway was 2 lanes
each way then, and was widened to 4 lanes each way 1974-1977. Crossing
2 lanes was a lot easier than crossing 4 lanes.

The right exit loop ramp from I-495 North to I-66 West was built when
I-66 was extended from I-495 to Theodore Roosevelt Bridge, 1977-1982.
The I-66 overpasses over I-495 northbound, didn't exist until I-66 was
extended inside of the Beltway, so there was no way that that loop ramp
could have reached I-66 westbound before then.

--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites

Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com

SPUI

unread,
Jun 2, 2002, 2:00:44 AM6/2/02
to

"Kevin Flynn" <fly...@rockymountainnews.com> wrote in message
news:71e3923f.02060...@posting.google.com...

> Now *you* are trolling. Get over it. To most people, the matter you
> profess to "really don't see" is painfully obvious.

I hate to agree with Scott, but it's only 'painfully obvious' to those with
a certain mindset. I (and many others probably) believe that this is nothing
to get worked up about.


Scott M. Kozel

unread,
Jun 2, 2002, 2:23:10 AM6/2/02
to
fly...@rockymountainnews.com (Kevin Flynn) wrote:
>
> "Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@infi.net> wrote:
> > fly...@rockymountainnews.com (Kevin Flynn) wrote:
> > > "Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@infi.net> wrote:
> > > > fly...@rockymountainnews.com (Kevin Flynn) wrote:
> > > > > "Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > So if someone with the same name as you, cracked up and went around
> > > > > > shooting people, and it made worldwide news, would you change your
> > > > > > name? How about if the name was similar? "Windows on the World" is not
> > > > > > quite the same as "Top of the World". Besides, thousands of mountain
> > > > > > peaks are taller than any manmade building, so any such name is really
> > > > > > not exact, pre-911 or post 911. It's just a name. I really don't see

> > > > > > what 911 has to do with the name of the Baltimore WTC's observation
> > > > > > deck.
> > > > >
> > > > > You wouldn't.
> > > >
> > > > I'll entertain an explanation.
> > >
> > > I'd bet that you wouldn't. I'd bet no one else reading this wonders.
> >
> > I'd bet that you are trolling. Come on, prove that you are not. Take
> > your best shot. Explain it.
>
> Now *you* are trolling. Get over it. To most people, the matter you
> profess to "really don't see" is painfully obvious.

You're posting snide remarks, and you're professing to speak for "most
people". So far, you've explained nothing. If you have some
substantive discussion about the issue at the top of the post, then you
have a responsibility to explain your opinions in detail.

--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites

Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com

John R Cambron

unread,
Jun 2, 2002, 9:10:03 AM6/2/02
to

Allen Seth Dunn wrote:

<sniped>

> > I wonder how many interchanges have two separate but clearly signed
> > entrances to the same direction of a road. Another that I can think
> > of is VA I-66 EB to I-495 NB and VA I-495 NB to I-66 WB (or was that
> > changed in the last round of construction?).
>
> No it wasn't. The cloverleaf ramp from I-495 North to I-66 West was kept
> because the new ramp would require people trying to get from the US 50 Exit
> to I-66 West to merge across four lanes of traffic in about a span of a 1/2
> mile. Being how dangerous that would be, VDOT simply kept the old ramp. A
> similar situation on the Capital Beltway is the I-95 Merge with the Inner
> Loop of the Capital Beltway near Greenbelt.

This maybe true on the part of thinking of VDOT engineers.

However the vast majority of motorists entering the northbound
interloop Capitol Beltway VA I-495 from right entrance ramp
from VA US-50 interchange cross those 4 lanes of traffic to
get to the westbound left exit ramp for VA I-66 westbound.

As for the left entrance ramp from MD I-95 southbound on to
the interloop Capitol Beltway MD I 95/495 southbound it is
not possible to get to the right exit ramp for MD US-1 from
the end of the left ramp. The left entrance ramp lanes join
the Capitol Beltway beyond the point where the jersey wall
that separates the main roadway of the Capitol Beltway from
the MD US-1 CD exit roadway.

<sniped>

David J. Greenberger

unread,
Jun 3, 2002, 2:21:10 PM6/3/02
to
bt...@mail.utexas.edu (Brian ten Siethoff) writes:

> "David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote in message news:<kllma1e...@zork.plover.net>...
> >
> > On Fawn Street at President Street, all traffic must turn right. There
> > are four red lights; according to a sign, traffic may only move on
> > flashing red after stop. The lights are solid when pedestrians may
>
> > cross President and flash at other times; in other words, Fawn traffic
> > may only proceed when it's in conflict with moving President traffic.
> > This presented a challenge as President traffic was quite heavy.
>
> The two-phase red and "right on flashing red after stop" signals are
> unique to Maryland as far as I know.

Actually, they're not! There's at least one here in NYC, on the
Riverside Drive service road at 95th Street, but I need to provide a bit
of background.

Riverside Drive is a two-way north-south street with intermittent
northbound-only service roads on the east side. Where these service
roads end, the main road usually has priority. One such service road
ends at 95th Street, where there just happens to be an exit ramp from
the Henry Hudson Parkway (NY 9A).

The way this is done at 95th Street is by installing a similar "right on
flashing red after stop" signal. Left turns are prohibited from the
service road and right turns are prohibited from the main road; the only
conflict is in straight-ahead movements.

http://plover.net/~green/?rivdr-95-afterstop

What surprised me about the one in Baltimore is that the solid red phase
protects pedestrians only.

> > Downtown Baltimore is overpriced,
>
> (tourist trap)

Indeed. I should have realized that when everyone I asked told me to
see the Inner Harbor. Where should I go next time? Are there any
interesting neighborhoods to walk around?

> > and it takes a lot of chutzpah,
> > especially after 9/11, to advertise the observation deck of a building
> > called the World Trade Center as "Top of the World," especially when the
> > aforementioned building is only 27 stories tall. But we saw a nice
> > juggling act.
>
> ?? I know of many places named "Top of the World" that are less
> deserving, such as a retirement community consisting entirely of
> low-rise condos (none more than 6 stories) in Pinellas County,
> Florida. I think the name Top of the World is appropriate for a city
> that makes a perfect and appropriate backdrop for John Waters movies.
> Tragic and gaudy.

But that retirement community doesn't happen to share a name with a pair
of buildings well known for their height that was the target of a
terrorist attack nine months ago, does it? Baltimore's World Trade
Center does. This New Yorker finds it insensitive to retain the "Top of
the World" name after 9/11.

> > Our plan was to drive down the BWP until we saw signs for the Greenbelt
> > Metro stations, but there were no such signs. Instead we got off at New
> > Carrollton and found our way to that Metro station. In the parking lot,
> > we followed the sign to "GUARANTEED PARKING" (how do they manage that?)
>
> "Guaranteed Parking" does not mean every vehicle arriving at New
> Carrollton will find a parking spot (in fact, you can consider
> yourself extremely fortunate). It means Metro has issued a limited
> number of permits (but more permits than the number of available
> parking spaces) for the "Guaranteed" spaces.

Oh! Wouldn't "PERMIT PARKING" make more sense, then? "GUARANTEED
PARKING" implies that everyone is guaranteed to find parking. (In fact,
only about half of the permit parking spaces were filled.)

> You were probably better off going to New Carrollton than Greenbelt,
> though, because Greenbelt fills up faster than New Carrollton.

Really? Greenbelt has a much larger parking lot.

> > It turns out that there was
> > lots of HOV parking available much closer to the station entrance.
>
> I think Maryland should advertise the HOV parking when the US 50 HOV
> lanes open, if not sooner. A better use of variable message signs
> than the date and time or "Buckle Up--It's the Law" or "Please Drive
> Gently", IMHO. Were there HOV spots open? Just one more incentive
> for people to carpool.

Most of the HOV spots were empty. I've never heard of HOV restrictions
in parking lots; had I thought of looking, I wouldn't have had to share
a space with part of an SUV.

> > The northbound toll at the Susquehanna River is a whopping $4, with no
> > E-ZPass discount. Wow! That's more than the George Washington Bridge
> > toll was a year and a half ago, and it's the same as the current
> > off-peak E-ZPass toll there. Despite that, traffic on I-95 was quite
> > heavy.
>
> Although the toll happens to be collected at the end of the bridge,
> the $4 toll funds a 50-mile section of I-95 (the JFK Memorial
> Highway), plus the aforementioned travel plazas in the median of I-95.
> I believe the Maryland Transportation Authority is responsible for
> the entire stretch of I-95 from the I-95/I-895 split to the Delaware
> Line. A $4 is more than reasonable, considering it's only collected
> on one direction. That's $0.04 per mile, very comparable to the New
> Jersey Turnpike.

I know that's the official line, but I don't buy it. I can drive the 27
miles between I-895 and MD 155 for free and I can drive the 16 miles
between MD 222 and MD 279 for free, but if I want to drive only the 4
miles between MD 155 and MD 222, I have to pay $4 round trip -- that's
$0.50 per mile. It's a toll bridge, and an expensive one at that.

Scott M. Kozel

unread,
Jun 3, 2002, 7:10:07 PM6/3/02
to

Brian is correct. The whole JFK Highway used to have ramp tolls as well
as the mainline tolls, that covered the whole 42 miles originally
built. The ramp tolls were eliminated in the late 1980s, but the MdTA
(which is the MDOT toll highway administrator) still administers the
whole highway (since extended onto 8 more miles of I-95 into Baltimore),
and MdTA's toll revenues administer that 50-mile section of highway.


John F. Kennedy Memorial Highway fact sheet (197k)
http://www.mdta.state.md.us/facilities/pdf/jfk.pdf

Direct quotes follow --

Fast Facts

Construction Dates - January 1962 - November 1963
Cost - $73 million
Location - I-95 from the northern Baltimore City line to the Delaware
border: 50 miles of divided highway, including 33 miles of six-lane
highway, 17 miles of eight-lane highway and 63 bridge structures either
on or over the highway.
Toll Rates - Toll is collected in the northbound direction only
Commuter discount - up to 60-percent savings per trip
2 axles: $4
3 axles: $8
4 axles: $12
5 axles: $16
6 axles: $20
Annual Traffic - 29-million vehicles (FY 2001) the tolls paid by our
customers.


The John F. Kennedy Memorial Highway

A Toll Facility Of The Maryland Transportation Authority

Planning for the Northeastern Expressway, as the John F. Kennedy
Memorial Highway was called originally, began in 1955. The turnpike was
envisioned as 42 miles of four-lane, divided highway running from White
Marsh Boulevard to the Maryland-Delaware line. Today, the highway,
designated I-95 as part of the national interstate highway system, is a
popular travel route for inter-state and commuter traffic.

The highway was developed as an interstate toll facility to hasten the
construction of a safe and convenient thoroughfare through the
northeastern part of Maryland. If the highway had been built using
traditional federal-highway-funding programs, the turnpike would have
been completed seven years later than planned.

At that time, the only other major north-south route through Maryland
was US 40. However, in the late 1950s, US 40 did not prove to be a
convenient route for interstate travelers in the northeast and
Mid-Atlantic region. The 43-mile roadway contained 21 traffic signals,
87 intersections and more than 1,000 commercial and private entrances
and exits.

Construction of the Northeastern Expressway began in January 1962. The
50-mile expressway from the northern Baltimore City line to the
Delaware-state border took just a little more than one-and-a-half years
to complete.

Bill Mitchell

unread,
Jun 3, 2002, 10:48:07 PM6/3/02
to
"David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote in message news:<kllma1e...@zork.plover.net>...
> Thursday, May 23, 2002
> New York, NY to Owings Mills, MD
>
> Route: George Washington Bridge (SB I-95/US 1/US 9) upper level - WB US
> 46 - SB New Jersey Turnpike (I-95) Western Spur - SB TRUCK US 1&9 - SB
> US 1&9 express - SB NJ 81 - SB New Jersey Turnpike (I-95) car lanes - WB
> I-278 - SB US 1 - confusion in Trenton - SB NJ 29 - EB I-195 - WB I-195
> - NB NJ 29 - local streets - Trenton Makes Bridge - SB PA 32 - SB
> Pennsylvania Avenue - SB US 1 - SB I-95 - SB I-495 - SB I-95 (Delaware
> Turnpike) - NB DE 896 - WB DE 4 - WB DE 2 - SB MD 279 - WB I-95 (JFK
> Memorial Highway) - OuL I-695 - SB I-83 - city streets - US 40 (former
> I-170) - MLK Boulevard - SB I-395 - SB I-95 - NB I-95 - NB I-395 - city
> streets - NB I-83 - OuL I-695 - NB I-795
>
> Many Amocos in New Jersey now sport the new BP color scheme. Some still
> have Amoco signs; others are fully BP, although ads for Amoco motor oil
> are posted.

Yes, BP has small signs stating that they still offer Amoco fuels.
IMHO BP should've left the Amoco stations as is, the BP brand long ago
sank to an unbranded type of status in NJ while Amoco was considered a
premium brand.


>
> The ramp from US 46 to the Turnpike is sufficiently twisty that I
> wouldn't be able to map it out without the assistance of Terraserver or
> similar.

It goes around the ramps off the overpass now used for the northbound
NJTPK exit to US 46 west, which originally carried traffic from 46
west to the turnpike south when the pike ended at 46, the old
southbound lanes still exist on the overpass unused.


> Past the airport I got back onto the Turnpike, with the help of unsigned
> NJ 81, but I got off right away at I-278, returning to US 1&9. Near

There's a light at Dowd Ave. & Trumbull Street in Elizabeth, the Dowd
Ave. banner on the light includes the NJ 81 marking. That's the only
NJ 81 sign I've ever seen.

>
> At the US 1 - US 9 interchange, SB US 9 crosses over NB US 1 on a Bailey
> bridge.
>
> At the Raritan River bridge near New Brunswick, the northbound roadway
> is clearly the original one, the southbound one having been added much
> later. Around that point was a 15-minute traffic jam.

The original is the Edison Bridge. In the last year, in fact it wasn't
open yet the last time I went through there.

Bill Mitchell

unread,
Jun 3, 2002, 10:57:55 PM6/3/02
to
"David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote in message news:<kllma1e...@zork.plover.net>...

>

> I stopped at the Getty station on the Holland Tunnel approach to top off
> the tank. My passenger wanted to pay with an American Express travelers
> check, and according to him, any business that accepts American Express
> must also accept American Express travelers checks. I asked the pump

Your passenger's wrong. Amex checks are not legal tender. On the
receiving end of those damn things (my opinion of them goes back to
when I was in the gas business here in Jersey) the only difference
between them and a personal check is they don't bounce for NSF. They
do bounce if they are reported lost or stolen. As such, they are
worthless AFAIC (as far as I care).

> jockey, and he said he did accept the card but not the travelers check.
> Then he refused to accept a credit card since the charge was less than
> $5, and when we finally paid cash, he stiffed us a penny. That's three

That refusal is pure BS (in a gas station anyway), though typical.

Crl4u14857

unread,
Jun 4, 2002, 9:23:24 AM6/4/02
to
>I know that's the official line, but I don't buy it. I can drive the 27
>miles between I-895 and MD 155 for free and I can drive the 16 miles
>between MD 222 and MD 279 for free, but if I want to drive only the 4
>miles between MD 155 and MD 222, I have to pay $4 round trip -- that's
>$0.50 per mile. It's a toll bridge, and an expensive one at that.

The local commuters use US 40, Hatem Bridge to get across the Susquehanna
River. There you can buy an AVI sticker at a cost of 4 dollars and is good for
one year. I always wished they would allow the AVI stickers on I-95, to keep
from having to get off and take the long route across, via US40. The only free
crossing, of The Susquehanna River in Maryland, is via US 1, Conowingo Dam. But
a very long detour off of I-95. BTW No mention was made of the Delaware Toll,
on I-95. 2 Dollars, to drive I-95, between The Maryland Delaware Line and exit
1, Del. Rt. 896, a distance of 2 miles. Guess thats why Delaware has no sales
tax.

Dan Mengel

unread,
Jun 4, 2002, 4:42:25 PM6/4/02
to
Touche on that one (the $2 at the DE state line). For those of you who want
to avoid the toll, don't mind the extra five minutes, get off (NB) at Exit
109 (MD 279 North toward Newark Del [sic]), take 279 into Delaware, turn
right on DE 2/4/896, then right again on DE 896 back to Exit 1 in Delaware.
Cars only, though - Newark police sit in front of the Chrysler plant waiting
to nab trucks avoiding the toll (there's a weight limit on that stretch for
this reason).

Dan

"Crl4u14857" <crl4u...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020604092324...@mb-cu.aol.com...

David J. Greenberger

unread,
Jun 4, 2002, 7:08:29 PM6/4/02
to
"Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> writes:

> Brian is correct. The whole JFK Highway used to have ramp tolls as well
> as the mainline tolls, that covered the whole 42 miles originally
> built. The ramp tolls were eliminated in the late 1980s, but the MdTA
> (which is the MDOT toll highway administrator) still administers the
> whole highway (since extended onto 8 more miles of I-95 into Baltimore),
> and MdTA's toll revenues administer that 50-mile section of highway.

I know what the toll funds. However, as a practical matter, only the
four miles between MD 155 and MD 222 are a toll road. The way the toll
is currently collected, I can drive south of MD 155 or north of MD 222
all I like without paying a penny in tolls, but if I simply go from MD
155 to MD 222, I have to pay the full toll of $4.

I haven't done a survey of maps, but they should depict only the four
miles between MD 155 and MD 222 in the "toll road" color. As far as the
motorist is concerned, the rest of the highway is toll-free.

David J. Greenberger

unread,
Jun 4, 2002, 7:41:07 PM6/4/02
to
crl4u...@aol.com (Crl4u14857) writes:

> The local commuters use US 40, Hatem Bridge to get across the
> Susquehanna River. There you can buy an AVI sticker at a cost of 4
> dollars and is good for one year. I always wished they would allow the
> AVI stickers on I-95, to keep from having to get off and take the long
> route across, via US40.

I have a fundamental quibble with the huge commuter discounts often
offered on toll facilities. Does a regular user of the road somehow
cause less damage per use than an occasional or one-time user? They're
an artifact of a particular political system rather than of economics.

> BTW No mention was made of the Delaware Toll, on I-95. 2 Dollars, to
> drive I-95, between The Maryland Delaware Line and exit 1,
> Del. Rt. 896, a distance of 2 miles. Guess thats why Delaware has no
> sales tax.

The Delaware toll is only $1.25. (If you paid $2.00, then you paid the
optional additional $0.75 surcharge for human cash handling. Sign up
for E-ZPass and you won't have to pay it.) I didn't mention it in the
same context because it's a lot cheaper -- although, granted, it doesn't
involve a major bridge.

David J. Greenberger

unread,
Jun 4, 2002, 7:41:08 PM6/4/02
to
mi...@nettrip.net (Bill Mitchell) writes:

> Yes, BP has small signs stating that they still offer Amoco fuels.
> IMHO BP should've left the Amoco stations as is, the BP brand long ago
> sank to an unbranded type of status in NJ while Amoco was considered a
> premium brand.

But in some places BP is the premium brand. IMO, BP-Amoco should have
made this decision on a regional or state-by-state basis, or even
allowed each station to decide on its own. Mobils are still Mobils and
Exxons are still Exxons; does ExxonMobil plan to phase out one of the
names?

> The original is the Edison Bridge. In the last year, in fact it wasn't
> open yet the last time I went through there.

Oh, so *that's* the Edison Bridge! I've heard of it but I never
realized where it was. I didn't know the bridge I was on was so new.
Is the new roadway also called the Edison Bridge or does it have a
different name?

David J. Greenberger

unread,
Jun 4, 2002, 7:41:10 PM6/4/02
to
mi...@nettrip.net (Bill Mitchell) writes:

> "David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote in message news:<kllma1e...@zork.plover.net>...
>
> > I stopped at the Getty station on the Holland Tunnel approach to top off
> > the tank. My passenger wanted to pay with an American Express travelers
> > check, and according to him, any business that accepts American Express
> > must also accept American Express travelers checks. I asked the pump
>
> Your passenger's wrong. Amex checks are not legal tender. On the
> receiving end of those damn things (my opinion of them goes back to
> when I was in the gas business here in Jersey) the only difference
> between them and a personal check is they don't bounce for NSF. They
> do bounce if they are reported lost or stolen. As such, they are
> worthless AFAIC (as far as I care).

No, reread what he told me. He didn't claim they were legal tender; he
claimed they were accepted anywhere the American Express card is
accepted. This Getty station accepted one (the card) but not the other
(the checks).

> > jockey, and he said he did accept the card but not the travelers check.
> > Then he refused to accept a credit card since the charge was less than
> > $5, and when we finally paid cash, he stiffed us a penny. That's three
>
> That refusal is pure BS (in a gas station anyway), though typical.

Typical at full-serve stations. I've never had a self-serve card reader
decline my offer to pay.

Scott M. Kozel

unread,
Jun 4, 2002, 10:13:56 PM6/4/02
to
"David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote:
>
> "Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> writes:
>
> > Brian is correct. The whole JFK Highway used to have ramp tolls as well
> > as the mainline tolls, that covered the whole 42 miles originally
> > built. The ramp tolls were eliminated in the late 1980s, but the MdTA
> > (which is the MDOT toll highway administrator) still administers the
> > whole highway (since extended onto 8 more miles of I-95 into Baltimore),
> > and MdTA's toll revenues administer that 50-mile section of highway.
>
> I know what the toll funds. However, as a practical matter, only the
> four miles between MD 155 and MD 222 are a toll road. The way the toll
> is currently collected, I can drive south of MD 155 or north of MD 222
> all I like without paying a penny in tolls, but if I simply go from MD
> 155 to MD 222, I have to pay the full toll of $4.

If we wanted to split hairs, we could say that there is no toll
southbound. As a practical matter, since the US-40 bridge is tolled
also, and in the same direction, there is little incentive for I-95
traffic to avoid I-95, so round trip I-95 car motorists normally pay the
$4 toll.

> I haven't done a survey of maps, but they should depict only the four
> miles between MD 155 and MD 222 in the "toll road" color. As far as the
> motorist is concerned, the rest of the highway is toll-free.

The I-95 motorists pay a toll at the Perryville toll plaza, that pays
for the maintenance and expansion on the whole 50 miles. MDOT SHA does
not fund that 50-mile section, MDOT MdTA does, so it is a toll funded 50
miles of highway. A substantial portion of the traffic travels the
entire length. True, portions of the highway are usable without paying
a toll, but those who pay the toll are helping to support the whole 50
miles of highway.

Scott M. Kozel

unread,
Jun 4, 2002, 10:16:22 PM6/4/02
to
"David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote:
>
> crl4u...@aol.com (Crl4u14857) writes:
>
> > The local commuters use US 40, Hatem Bridge to get across the
> > Susquehanna River. There you can buy an AVI sticker at a cost of 4
> > dollars and is good for one year. I always wished they would allow the
> > AVI stickers on I-95, to keep from having to get off and take the long
> > route across, via US40.
>
> I have a fundamental quibble with the huge commuter discounts often
> offered on toll facilities. Does a regular user of the road somehow
> cause less damage per use than an occasional or one-time user? They're
> an artifact of a particular political system rather than of economics.

Which political system is that? Seems to me that political system or
party has no real correlation with the usage of such pricing schemes.

It comes down to price elasticity of demand. The long distance through
traffic users are less deterred by a higher price, and they get the
benefit of continuous long distance Interstate travel. Potential
frequent users are given an incentive to use the facility by lower
prices, which is a good thing if there is enough extra capacity
available; and shorter trips would often see more 'competition' from
local roads. A properly designed multi-tiered pricing scheme can
maximize total revenues without filling the facility to capacity, and
that is important for a facility which is supported by tolls.

> The Delaware toll is only $1.25. (If you paid $2.00, then you paid the
> optional additional $0.75 surcharge for human cash handling. Sign up
> for E-ZPass and you won't have to pay it.) I didn't mention it in the
> same context because it's a lot cheaper -- although, granted, it doesn't
> involve a major bridge.

The Delaware Turnpike is about 1/3 the length of the Maryland Tollroad.

David J. Greenberger

unread,
Jun 4, 2002, 11:18:53 PM6/4/02
to
"Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> writes:

> "David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote:
> >
> > I know what the toll funds. However, as a practical matter, only the
> > four miles between MD 155 and MD 222 are a toll road. The way the toll
> > is currently collected, I can drive south of MD 155 or north of MD 222
> > all I like without paying a penny in tolls, but if I simply go from MD
> > 155 to MD 222, I have to pay the full toll of $4.
>
> If we wanted to split hairs, we could say that there is no toll
> southbound.

MD 155 to MD 222 is northbound, last I checked.

> As a practical matter, since the US-40 bridge is tolled also, and in
> the same direction, there is little incentive for I-95 traffic to
> avoid I-95, so round trip I-95 car motorists normally pay the $4 toll.

What gave you the idea I was referring specifically to through traffic?
A commuter who lives in Webster and works in Essex drives 50 miles round
trip on the toll-supported I-95 without ever paying a toll. A commuter
who lives in Craigtown and works in Elk Mills drives 32 miles round trip
on the toll-supported I-95 without ever paying a toll. Yet someone who
lives Craigtown and works in Webster pays $4 each day, despite his only
traveling 8 miles round trip on the toll-supported I-95.

I am aware of what the toll supports, as the above paragraph should make
clear. My only point is that the actual toll that motorists have to pay
is collected exclusively and entirely by those motorists who drive
northbound from interchange 89 to interchange 93.

> > I haven't done a survey of maps, but they should depict only the four
> > miles between MD 155 and MD 222 in the "toll road" color. As far as the
> > motorist is concerned, the rest of the highway is toll-free.
>
> The I-95 motorists pay a toll at the Perryville toll plaza, that pays
> for the maintenance and expansion on the whole 50 miles. MDOT SHA does
> not fund that 50-mile section, MDOT MdTA does, so it is a toll funded 50
> miles of highway. A substantial portion of the traffic travels the
> entire length. True, portions of the highway are usable without paying
> a toll, but those who pay the toll are helping to support the whole 50
> miles of highway.

I know.

I still haven't done a full survey of maps, but I did look at the MDOT
Official Highway Map. Even it depicts the entirety of I-95 in Maryland
as a toll-free road except for the Fort McHenry Tunnel and the Tydings
Memorial Bridge. (Yet it shows all of I-95 between MD 279 and I-295 as
a toll road, even though the analogous situation holds there.) I rest
my case.

David J. Greenberger

unread,
Jun 5, 2002, 12:28:54 AM6/5/02
to
"Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> writes:

> "David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote:
> >
> > crl4u...@aol.com (Crl4u14857) writes:
> >
> > > The local commuters use US 40, Hatem Bridge to get across the
> > > Susquehanna River. There you can buy an AVI sticker at a cost of 4
> > > dollars and is good for one year. I always wished they would allow the
> > > AVI stickers on I-95, to keep from having to get off and take the long
> > > route across, via US40.
> >
> > I have a fundamental quibble with the huge commuter discounts often
> > offered on toll facilities. Does a regular user of the road somehow
> > cause less damage per use than an occasional or one-time user? They're
> > an artifact of a particular political system rather than of economics.
>
> Which political system is that? Seems to me that political system or
> party has no real correlation with the usage of such pricing schemes.

System, not party. The way our political system is structured, local
politicians are discouraged from upsetting their local constituents but
have little reason to care what others think. I'm not saying this is a
bad thing in general, but it does have the side effect of toll charges
being based not on economic concerns but on where people happen to live
or how many times per month they happen to use the facility.

> It comes down to price elasticity of demand. The long distance through
> traffic users are less deterred by a higher price, and they get the
> benefit of continuous long distance Interstate travel. Potential
> frequent users are given an incentive to use the facility by lower
> prices, which is a good thing if there is enough extra capacity
> available; and shorter trips would often see more 'competition' from
> local roads.

On the contrary, long-distance traffic can often divert to an alternate
route without making a major dent (proportionately) in travel time,
while a for a short-distance daily commuter, such a diversion could
easily double the length of the trip.

Most toll facilities that I'm familiar with are most congested during
rush hours. Rush hours are exactly when regular commuters tend to
travel; through travelers, if anything, try to avoid traveling through
congested areas during rush hours. The usual effect of commuter
discounts is that the average toll collected per car is greater off-peak
than during rush hours. That's backwards.

> A properly designed multi-tiered pricing scheme can maximize total
> revenues without filling the facility to capacity, and that is
> important for a facility which is supported by tolls.

I agree; peak and congestion-based surcharges are good ideas. I have
commended the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey for implementing
a 25% ($1) peak surcharge last year.

But that's not the sort of multi-tiered pricing scheme offered on the
Tydings Memorial Bridge. There, while occasional users pay $4.00 per
northbound trip, those who cross 25 times in 60 days get a whopping 80%
discount.

For what other services or products are 80% bulk discounts traditional?

> > The Delaware toll is only $1.25. (If you paid $2.00, then you paid the
> > optional additional $0.75 surcharge for human cash handling. Sign up
> > for E-ZPass and you won't have to pay it.) I didn't mention it in the
> > same context because it's a lot cheaper -- although, granted, it doesn't
> > involve a major bridge.
>
> The Delaware Turnpike is about 1/3 the length of the Maryland Tollroad.

That's about right, but the relevant lengths are the the sections of
road for which the tolls are charged, not the sections of road that the
tolls fund. Maryland's is about four miles; Delaware's is about one.

Kevin Flynn

unread,
Jun 5, 2002, 1:29:32 AM6/5/02
to
"SPUI" <sp...@mit.BUTIDONTLIKESPeduAM> wrote in message news:<gwiK8.46492$%J4.8...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...

I understand what you say, but you at least are not disingenuously
pretending "not to understand" the connection between 9/11 and the use
of the name "World Trade Center" or "Top of the World" by other sites,
nor the sensitivity some now attach to that -- even though you (and me
as well, to a great extent) consider it to be over-sensitive. While
you say it's nothing to ge worked up about, you did know exactly what
David was expressing. Our friend was playing a trolling game by saying
he didn't get the connection. He gets it; he just doesn't agree with
it. I just visited the WTC site this evening, and it's difficult to
suffer such foolery.

Kevin Flynn

unread,
Jun 5, 2002, 1:31:43 AM6/5/02
to
"Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<3CF9BA04...@attbi.com>...

No I don't.

Alan Hamilton

unread,
Jun 5, 2002, 5:15:11 AM6/5/02
to
On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 23:41:10 GMT, "David J. Greenberger"
<dav...@email.com> wrote:

>mi...@nettrip.net (Bill Mitchell) writes:
>> Your passenger's wrong. Amex checks are not legal tender. On the
>> receiving end of those damn things (my opinion of them goes back to
>> when I was in the gas business here in Jersey) the only difference
>> between them and a personal check is they don't bounce for NSF. They
>> do bounce if they are reported lost or stolen. As such, they are
>> worthless AFAIC (as far as I care).
>
>No, reread what he told me. He didn't claim they were legal tender; he
>claimed they were accepted anywhere the American Express card is
>accepted. This Getty station accepted one (the card) but not the other
>(the checks).

If the signatures match and you're willing to swear you saw it
countersigned, Amex will cash them.
http://home5.americanexpress.com/merchant/accept/tcgc.asp

I'm not sure if they're required to take travelers checks if they take
the Amex card. Pretty stupid for a travel-related business (like a
gas station) to refuse them, though.
--
/
/ * / Alan Hamilton
* * al...@arizonaroads.com

Arizona Roads -- http://www.arizonaroads.com

steve the magnificent and poisonous

unread,
Jun 5, 2002, 5:49:23 AM6/5/02
to
> >
> > Many Amocos in New Jersey now sport the new BP color scheme. Some still
> > have Amoco signs; others are fully BP, although ads for Amoco motor oil
> > are posted.
>
> Yes, BP has small signs stating that they still offer Amoco fuels.
> IMHO BP should've left the Amoco stations as is, the BP brand long ago
> sank to an unbranded type of status in NJ while Amoco was considered a
> premium brand.
My dad certainly reveres BP... I remember one right by the Lincoln
Tunnel approach, but that's the only one I knew of. Just the other
day, my dad commented that Amoco turned into BP colors... impossible
for me to explain the whole merger/changeover etc.

>
>
> >
> > The ramp from US 46 to the Turnpike is sufficiently twisty that I
> > wouldn't be able to map it out without the assistance of Terraserver or
> > similar.
>
> It goes around the ramps off the overpass now used for the northbound
> NJTPK exit to US 46 west, which originally carried traffic from 46
> west to the turnpike south when the pike ended at 46, the old
> southbound lanes still exist on the overpass unused.
After checking it out on Mapquest, the southbound lanes over the
overpass have turned to grass. The US 46 WB ramp to the Turnpike and
other local roads is quite wide, and it is quite clear how things used
to go there.

>
>
> > Past the airport I got back onto the Turnpike, with the help of unsigned
> > NJ 81, but I got off right away at I-278, returning to US 1&9. Near
>
> There's a light at Dowd Ave. & Trumbull Street in Elizabeth, the Dowd
> Ave. banner on the light includes the NJ 81 marking. That's the only
> NJ 81 sign I've ever seen.
Picture?

>
> >
> > At the US 1 - US 9 interchange, SB US 9 crosses over NB US 1 on a Bailey
> > bridge.
> >
> > At the Raritan River bridge near New Brunswick, the northbound roadway
> > is clearly the original one, the southbound one having been added much
> > later. Around that point was a 15-minute traffic jam.
>
> The original is the Edison Bridge. In the last year, in fact it wasn't
> open yet the last time I went through there.
I checked the progress from time to time online, darned if I remember
where. I also drove by it once or twice during construction early on
when there wasn't much to see. Oddly, I never had problems with US 9
traffic on the old 4-lane span.
Next comes the Driscoll Bridge second span, 7 lanes.

Brian ten Siethoff

unread,
Jun 5, 2002, 11:04:48 AM6/5/02
to
"David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote in message news:<r8jmod...@email.com>...

Okay, I will concede that almost everyone I know thinks the $4 toll on
I-95 in Maryland is obscene, and almost everyone thinks the toll only
funds the bridge. I don't know of any up-to-date maps that show the
entire 50-mile JFK Highway in the "toll road" color.

However, that does not change the fact that MdTA needs the $4 tolls to
maintain and improve that stretch of I-95. What alternative would you
propose? Should MdTA install three additional tollbooths evenly
spaced along the JFK Memorial Highway and collect four $0.50 tolls in
each direction? Why not twenty mainline toll booths collecting $0.10
each? If electronic toll collection becomes universal and cash toll
booths are eliminated entirely, some kind of distance-based toll will
be a possibility not only on I-95 but on all roads, in place of motor
fuel taxes. Add congestion pricing to the mix and we have the holy
grail of all transportation economists.

Until hell freezes over, probably the most equitable solution would be
to remove the Tydings bridge toll plaza and install a new plaza on
I-95 north of MD 43. That way, most traffic using the JFK Highway
would pay a toll, including commuters from Harford County to Baltimore
who now get a "free ride" on a long section of a road (up to 25 miles
if coming from MD 155 in Havre de Grace) that is supported by toll
revenues they don't pay (unless they regularly use the Ft. McHenry or
Harbor Tunnels, but I imagine the JFK tolls actually subsidize the
tunnels and their approach roadways rather than the other way around,
so Harford commuters get even more benefit).

But collecting the maximum toll from the maximum number of users may
not be in Maryland's best interest from an economic standpoint. The
State would have to weight the increase in vehicle operating costs and
pollution due to the massive congestion that would be created at the
new toll plaza, especially at peak commuting periods, against the
increase in toll revenue that the state would collect. The pollution
at the new plaza would add to the emmissions in the Baltimore metro
area, which could put federal transportation dollars in jeopardy. The
list of downsides goes on and on.

Then we get to consider the political implications of imposing a "new"
toll on Harford county commuters, but we all know how that would play
out in Annapolis.

Regards,
Brian ten Siethoff

Scott M. Kozel

unread,
Jun 5, 2002, 6:36:53 PM6/5/02
to
fly...@rockymountainnews.com (Kevin Flynn) wrote:
>
> "SPUI" <sp...@mit.BUTIDONTLIKESPeduAM> wrote:
> > "Kevin Flynn" <fly...@rockymountainnews.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Now *you* are trolling. Get over it. To most people, the matter you
> > > profess to "really don't see" is painfully obvious.
> >
> > I hate to agree with Scott, but it's only 'painfully obvious' to those with
> > a certain mindset. I (and many others probably) believe that this is nothing
> > to get worked up about.
>
> I understand what you say, but you at least are not disingenuously
> pretending "not to understand" the connection between 9/11 and the use
> of the name "World Trade Center" or "Top of the World" by other sites,
> nor the sensitivity some now attach to that -- even though you (and me
> as well, to a great extent) consider it to be over-sensitive. While
> you say it's nothing to ge worked up about, you did know exactly what
> David was expressing. Our friend was playing a trolling game by saying
> he didn't get the connection. He gets it; he just doesn't agree with
> it.

No, I was just looking at it from a practical standpoint. I see no
reason why the other businesses with the same name should be under any
compunction to change their names because of what happened at the NYC
WTC (which is what David seemed to suggest). A name is an identity, in
many cases one held for many years.

> I just visited the WTC site this evening, and it's difficult to
> suffer such foolery.

I've been to the NYC WTC area post-911 also (mid-Nov.), and I don't see
what that has to do with this issue; although your visit obviously
hasn't stopped you from being insulting to other people.

Scott M. Kozel

unread,
Jun 5, 2002, 7:29:56 PM6/5/02
to
"David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote:
>
> "Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> writes:
>
> > It comes down to price elasticity of demand. The long distance through
> > traffic users are less deterred by a higher price, and they get the
> > benefit of continuous long distance Interstate travel. Potential
> > frequent users are given an incentive to use the facility by lower
> > prices, which is a good thing if there is enough extra capacity
> > available; and shorter trips would often see more 'competition' from
> > local roads.
>
> On the contrary, long-distance traffic can often divert to an alternate
> route without making a major dent (proportionately) in travel time,
> while a for a short-distance daily commuter, such a diversion could
> easily double the length of the trip.

But the topic is northeast Maryland, for which my statement would hold
true.

> > A properly designed multi-tiered pricing scheme can maximize total
> > revenues without filling the facility to capacity, and that is
> > important for a facility which is supported by tolls.
>
> I agree; peak and congestion-based surcharges are good ideas. I have
> commended the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey for implementing
> a 25% ($1) peak surcharge last year.

The chief economic issue is to fulfill the financial obligations of the
toll facility (actually 7 toll facilities are pooled financially in the
MdTA). That includes paying the bond debt service, maintaining the
highway, paying the employees, and maintaining the buildings, vehicles,
etc. The tolls are not being used for a congestion pricing scheme. So
the toll structure is designed to fulfill the financial obligations of
the toll facility. The local frequent users want discounts, and the
occasional long distance users typically don't mind paying the higher
toll. Financial success of a debt-funded toll facility is by no means
guaranteed, so the toll agency's board gets to call the shots.



> But that's not the sort of multi-tiered pricing scheme offered on the
> Tydings Memorial Bridge. There, while occasional users pay $4.00 per
> northbound trip, those who cross 25 times in 60 days get a whopping 80%
> discount.

I am unaware of any discount that large at the Maryland Tollroad (JFK).
Do you have a cite?



> > The Delaware Turnpike is about 1/3 the length of the Maryland Tollroad.
>
> That's about right, but the relevant lengths are the the sections of
> road for which the tolls are charged, not the sections of road that the
> tolls fund. Maryland's is about four miles; Delaware's is about one.

I think that both are relevant. IMO, when discussing the tolling of the
Delaware Turnpike and the Maryland Tollroad, both the tolled sections
and the toll-funded sections should be cited. It is important to know
which sections require a toll, and it is important to know which
sections are funded by the tolls.

Kevin Flynn

unread,
Jun 6, 2002, 12:18:06 PM6/6/02
to
"Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<3CFE92C6...@attbi.com>...

> fly...@rockymountainnews.com (Kevin Flynn) wrote:
> > I understand what you say, but you at least are not disingenuously
> > pretending "not to understand" the connection between 9/11 and the use
> > of the name "World Trade Center" or "Top of the World" by other sites,
> > nor the sensitivity some now attach to that -- even though you (and me
> > as well, to a great extent) consider it to be over-sensitive. While
> > you say it's nothing to ge worked up about, you did know exactly what
> > David was expressing. Our friend was playing a trolling game by saying
> > he didn't get the connection. He gets it; he just doesn't agree with
> > it.
>
> No, I was just looking at it from a practical standpoint. I see no
> reason why the other businesses with the same name should be under any
> compunction to change their names because of what happened at the NYC
> WTC (which is what David seemed to suggest). A name is an identity, in
> many cases one held for many years.

This is neither what you said nor what I initially responded to. You
were being flippantly insulting to the sensitivities of the victims of
the attack IMO.

> > I just visited the WTC site this evening, and it's difficult to
> > suffer such foolery.
>
> I've been to the NYC WTC area post-911 also (mid-Nov.), and I don't see
> what that has to do with this issue; although your visit obviously
> hasn't stopped you from being insulting to other people.

Nor you. That is why I posted in the first place.

Scott M. Kozel

unread,
Jun 6, 2002, 2:05:11 PM6/6/02
to
fly...@rockymountainnews.com (Kevin Flynn) wrote:

>
> "Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> wrote:
> > fly...@rockymountainnews.com (Kevin Flynn) wrote:
> >
> > > I understand what you say, but you at least are not disingenuously
> > > pretending "not to understand" the connection between 9/11 and the use
> > > of the name "World Trade Center" or "Top of the World" by other sites,
> > > nor the sensitivity some now attach to that -- even though you (and me
> > > as well, to a great extent) consider it to be over-sensitive. While
> > > you say it's nothing to ge worked up about, you did know exactly what
> > > David was expressing. Our friend was playing a trolling game by saying
> > > he didn't get the connection. He gets it; he just doesn't agree with
> > > it.
> >
> > No, I was just looking at it from a practical standpoint. I see no
> > reason why the other businesses with the same name should be under any
> > compunction to change their names because of what happened at the NYC
> > WTC (which is what David seemed to suggest). A name is an identity, in
> > many cases one held for many years.
>
> This is neither what you said nor what I initially responded to. You
> were being flippantly insulting to the sensitivities of the victims of
> the attack IMO.

Non-contributors like yourself just need to be ignored.

Exile on Market Street

unread,
Jun 6, 2002, 5:02:46 PM6/6/02
to
In article <it4yic...@email.com>, "David J. Greenberger"
<dav...@email.com> wrote:

> "Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> writes:
>
> > It comes down to price elasticity of demand. The long distance through
> > traffic users are less deterred by a higher price, and they get the
> > benefit of continuous long distance Interstate travel. Potential
> > frequent users are given an incentive to use the facility by lower
> > prices, which is a good thing if there is enough extra capacity
> > available; and shorter trips would often see more 'competition' from
> > local roads.
>
> On the contrary, long-distance traffic can often divert to an alternate
> route without making a major dent (proportionately) in travel time,
> while a for a short-distance daily commuter, such a diversion could
> easily double the length of the trip.

There's another factor to consider, though.

The long-distance traveler, especially since the advent of the Interstate
system, usually is not interested enough in saving a couple of bucks to
bother figuring out the way to a parallel crossing -- if indeed one exists.

In the case of the Susquehanna crossings between Perryville and Havre de
Grace, the crossings are close enough that motorists could probably figure
out how to get to US 40 from I-95 once they spy the older bridge as they
cross the Tydings span. Since (if I'm not mistaken) the Hatem Bridge was
not originally a toll span (it was built in the late 1940s, right?), the
tolls were probably instituted to discourage this behavior, hence the steep
discounts for commuters on the older span.

--
Sandy Smith, Univ of Pennsylvania / 215.898.1423 / smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
Managing Editor, _Pennsylvania Current_ cur...@pobox.upenn.edu
Penn Web Team -- Web Editor webm...@isc.upenn.edu
I speak for myself here, not Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/

"You keep usin' them big-ass Harvard words, your ghetto pass is going to
be revoked."
-----------------------------------------------Method Man, in "How High"--

Exile on Market Street

unread,
Jun 6, 2002, 5:07:23 PM6/6/02
to
In article <r8jody...@email.com>, "David J. Greenberger"
<dav...@email.com> wrote:

> bt...@mail.utexas.edu (Brian ten Siethoff) writes:
>
> > "David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote in message
news:<kllma1e...@zork.plover.net>...

> > > and it takes a lot of chutzpah,
> > > especially after 9/11, to advertise the observation deck of a building
> > > called the World Trade Center as "Top of the World," especially when the
> > > aforementioned building is only 27 stories tall. But we saw a nice
> > > juggling act.
> >
> > ?? I know of many places named "Top of the World" that are less

> > deserving[...]


>
> But that retirement community doesn't happen to share a name with a pair
> of buildings well known for their height that was the target of a
> terrorist attack nine months ago, does it? Baltimore's World Trade
> Center does. This New Yorker finds it insensitive to retain the "Top of
> the World" name after 9/11.

Except wasn't the name of the restaurant at the top of one of the Twin
Towers "Windows on the World"? AFAIK, the observation deck atop the other
tower had no separate name. If I'm wrong, I'll grant you your comment.

But this does beg the question of the 60-odd facilities around the world
who have licensed the rights to the term "World Trade Center" from the
International Federation of World Trade Centers. Should they change their
names as well?

David J. Greenberger

unread,
Jun 6, 2002, 6:42:26 PM6/6/02
to
bt...@mail.utexas.edu (Brian ten Siethoff) writes:

> Okay, I will concede that almost everyone I know thinks the $4 toll on
> I-95 in Maryland is obscene, and almost everyone thinks the toll only
> funds the bridge. I don't know of any up-to-date maps that show the
> entire 50-mile JFK Highway in the "toll road" color.
>
> However, that does not change the fact that MdTA needs the $4 tolls to
> maintain and improve that stretch of I-95. What alternative would you
> propose? Should MdTA install three additional tollbooths evenly
> spaced along the JFK Memorial Highway and collect four $0.50 tolls in
> each direction? Why not twenty mainline toll booths collecting $0.10
> each?

More practically, why not use tickets, like on most of the New York
State Thruway, New Jersey Turnpike, Pennsylvania Turnpike, etc.?
Ideally, the toll agencies in Maryland, Delaware, and New Jersey would
get together and distribute unified tickets so through traffic doesn't
have to stop twice at each state line.

But with E-ZPass and its equivalents growing in popularity, this is
becoming a moot point. What I'd suggest is making the entire toll road
E-ZPass/M-TAG-only. Place an M-TAG customer service center at either
end of the highway, with others scattered around the region. Anybody
who doesn't have a tag would be required to stop there and get one.
Regular M-TAG accounts could be opened there, or for those who prefer
not to open new accounts, prepaid tags would be rented for a small
service charge (the $10 deposit and any remaining balance would be
refunded when the tag is returned).

> If electronic toll collection becomes universal and cash toll booths
> are eliminated entirely, some kind of distance-based toll will be a
> possibility not only on I-95 but on all roads, in place of motor fuel
> taxes. Add congestion pricing to the mix and we have the holy grail
> of all transportation economists.

Beautiful. This is precisely what I've been advocating here for a long
time. (NYSDMV missed the boat, I'm afraid, by not including E-ZPass
tags as standard equipment with the new license plates that came out
last year.)

> Until hell freezes over, probably the most equitable solution would be
> to remove the Tydings bridge toll plaza and install a new plaza on
> I-95 north of MD 43. That way, most traffic using the JFK Highway
> would pay a toll, including commuters from Harford County to Baltimore
> who now get a "free ride" on a long section of a road (up to 25 miles
> if coming from MD 155 in Havre de Grace) that is supported by toll
> revenues they don't pay (unless they regularly use the Ft. McHenry or
> Harbor Tunnels, but I imagine the JFK tolls actually subsidize the
> tunnels and their approach roadways rather than the other way around,
> so Harford commuters get even more benefit).

But that still doesn't solve the problem. Now there are 35 miles of
toll-free but toll-supported road, including a bridge that is probably
worthy of being tolled (though not the full $4 currently charged). That
probably doesn't give most commuters free rides, but I'm sure it does
for a substantial number, including some who now pay.

> But collecting the maximum toll from the maximum number of users may
> not be in Maryland's best interest from an economic standpoint. The
> State would have to weight the increase in vehicle operating costs and
> pollution due to the massive congestion that would be created at the
> new toll plaza, especially at peak commuting periods, against the
> increase in toll revenue that the state would collect. The pollution
> at the new plaza would add to the emmissions in the Baltimore metro
> area, which could put federal transportation dollars in jeopardy. The
> list of downsides goes on and on.

I don't think collecting the maximum toll should be the goal. My
criticism of the current arrangement is not only that some pay no toll
to drive on a toll-supported road but also that some pay the full toll
for its entire length even if they only drive on a small section. There
is no way a single barrier toll can solve that problem.

I agree that the congestion and pollution are major problems, but they
vanish with full-speed electronic toll collection.

> Then we get to consider the political implications of imposing a "new"
> toll on Harford county commuters, but we all know how that would play
> out in Annapolis.

Of course. Nobody on the profiting side of an inequity wants to lose
the inequity. I don't blame them, but this is, again, one of the
downsides of our political system: politicians naturally are more
interested in benefiting their own constituents than in benefiting the
system as a whole.

David J. Greenberger

unread,
Jun 6, 2002, 6:42:29 PM6/6/02
to
"Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> writes:

> "David J. Greenberger" <dav...@email.com> wrote:
> >
> > "Scott M. Kozel" <koz...@attbi.com> writes:
> >
> > > It comes down to price elasticity of demand. The long distance through
> > > traffic users are less deterred by a higher price, and they get the
> > > benefit of continuous long distance Interstate travel. Potential
> > > frequent users are given an incentive to use the facility by lower
> > > prices, which is a good thing if there is enough extra capacity
> > > available; and shorter trips would often see more 'competition' from
> > > local roads.
> >
> > On the contrary, long-distance traffic can often divert to an alternate
> > route without making a major dent (proportionately) in travel time,
> > while a for a short-distance daily commuter, such a diversion could
> > easily double the length of the trip.
>
> But the topic is northeast Maryland, for which my statement would hold
> true.

The topic is long-distance traffic. Most long-distance traffic, unless
it happens to be originating or terminating in northeast Maryland, can
avoid northeast Maryland without doubling the length of the trip.

> > > A properly designed multi-tiered pricing scheme can maximize total
> > > revenues without filling the facility to capacity, and that is
> > > important for a facility which is supported by tolls.
> >
> > I agree; peak and congestion-based surcharges are good ideas. I have
> > commended the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey for implementing
> > a 25% ($1) peak surcharge last year.
>
> The chief economic issue is to fulfill the financial obligations of
> the toll facility (actually 7 toll facilities are pooled financially
> in the MdTA). That includes paying the bond debt service, maintaining
> the highway, paying the employees, and maintaining the buildings,
> vehicles, etc. The tolls are not being used for a congestion pricing
> scheme. So the toll structure is designed to fulfill the financial
> obligations of the toll facility. The local frequent users want
> discounts, and the occasional long distance users typically don't mind
> paying the higher toll. Financial success of a debt-funded toll
> facility is by no means guaranteed, so the toll agency's board gets to
> call the shots.

Congestion is itself a cost on any highway. (If nothing else, consider
that highways are widened to better accomodate their peak loads, not
their middle-of-the-night loads.) Congestion pricing is not some sort
of social engineering; it's simply the practice of charging people for
the costs they're responsible for.

You seem to be suggesting that the toll agency is acting like a business
in designing its toll structure. Perhaps it is, but it's acting like a
very peculiar sort of business -- the sort of business that is
controlled by a subset of its customers. If my local supermarket
announces an increase the price of milk, the most I can do to protest is
to stop buying milk there. If enough of my fellow potential customers
do likewise, perhaps the supermarket will suffer from its decision, but
if the supermarket was losing money on us to begin with, that's not a
concern. If my local toll agency announces a toll increase, I don't
need to go so far as to stop using the toll facility -- I can simply
pick up the phone and call my friendly politician, who will put pressure
on the agency to change its plans (or else I'll vote for the other guy
in November). The toll agency might then propose a solution that would
satisfy the politician while still increasing toll revenue: raise tolls
specifically for those who haven't been complaining to local politicians
-- either those who live elsewhere (yielding the phenomenon of resident
discounts) or those who don't use the toll facility regularly (yielding
the phenomenon of huge bulk discounts). The fear is not, as it would be
in a standard business, that the increased toll will drive too many
customers away; it's that the politicians will cause trouble.

If the toll agency's board had full power to implement whatever scheme
it felt was most appropriate, I'd agree, but no public toll agency's
board has such power.

> > But that's not the sort of multi-tiered pricing scheme offered on the
> > Tydings Memorial Bridge. There, while occasional users pay $4.00 per
> > northbound trip, those who cross 25 times in 60 days get a whopping 80%
> > discount.
>
> I am unaware of any discount that large at the Maryland Tollroad (JFK).
> Do you have a cite?

From http://www.mdta.state.md.us/etoll/etoll.html :

>The following plans are available with M-TAG/E-ZPass:
>
> - Baltimore Regional Commuter Plan (for two-axle vehicles)* 50 trips
> for $20, valid for 60 days (two trips are deducted at the Kennedy
> Highway)
>[snip]

That's 25 trips for $20 as long as they're used up within 60 days, or an
effective rate of 80 cents -- 20% of $4.00, or an 80% discount.

> > > The Delaware Turnpike is about 1/3 the length of the Maryland Tollroad.
> >
> > That's about right, but the relevant lengths are the the sections of
> > road for which the tolls are charged, not the sections of road that the
> > tolls fund. Maryland's is about four miles; Delaware's is about one.
>
> I think that both are relevant. IMO, when discussing the tolling of the
> Delaware Turnpike and the Maryland Tollroad, both the tolled sections
> and the toll-funded sections should be cited. It is important to know
> which sections require a toll, and it is important to know which
> sections are funded by the tolls.

Okay, I'll grant you that.