US-82 North Texas - One Strange Road
Bobby Henderson
part of a sign installation trip. Normally, I don't have to go on such
outings, but since an electronic message center was involved, I had to go to
the site to train the customer.
US-82 from Nocona, TX over to Paris, TX is one strange, widely varied road.
Where I entered (at the real easy to miss US-81 / US-82 intersection), the
US-82 roadway is just a basic 2 lane road --but a growing amount of it is
being improved into a Super2 facility. Farther over toward Gainsville the
road splits up into a normal four lane divided highway. The eastbound lanes
look graded into smooth "super2" form while the westbound carriageway is
older with more winding turns and grade changes with rolling hills.
Near Gainsville and the I-35 intersection, it seems like there are long term
plans to improve the road into a fully limited access Interstate class
facility. A good amount of US-82 between Gainsville and Sherman works as
Interstate standard limited access. The exit numbers don't make much sense.
They're getting up into the 600 - 650 range, but where US-82 enters Texas
from New Mexico isn't quite that far away. So I don't know the basis for
those exit numberings.
After Sherman, US-82 goes to being a combination of limited access four lane
with interchanges, four lane with at grade intersections and even two lane
with limited access interchanges. Many of the two lane portions with
limited access interchanges have the extra ROW in place (and even a lot of
the landscaping done) for the second carriageway. One of the wierd things
about the Super2 interchanges is there is commonly some other at grade
right/left turn intersections for less traveled roads on either end of the
interchange.
Much of the road goes to a regular Super2 graded road with at grade
intersections on toward Paris, but there is ample ROW secured for separate
east/west roadways. I have to say the eastern intersection with US-82 and
TX-56 closer to Paris is really kind of strange. The two lane US-82 road
splits up into little, winding single lane roads to incorporate the turnoffs
to TX-56.
Long term, I suppose TxDOT intends for US-82 to be a full limited access
four lane Interstate style facility between Gainsville and Texarkana. I
recall seeing the corridor represented on Governor Rick Perry's Trans Texas
corridor map. Currently, there is not all that much population along the
corridor. But with metro Dallas-Fort Worth development (or suburban sprawl)
creeping closer and closer to the Red River, I can see the need for at least
getting all of the land needed for a US-82 freeway (or "I-34" facility)
reserved well in advance.
I haven't been along all of US-380 north of Dallas to see if some of the
same things are going on there. But that's another road that will have to
be upgraded to a full Interstate level facility relatively soon.
Bobby Henderson
stéphane dumas
> four lane Interstate style facility between Gainsville and Texarkana. I
> recall seeing the corridor represented on Governor Rick Perry's Trans
Texas
> corridor map. Currently, there is not all that much population along the
> corridor. But with metro Dallas-Fort Worth development (or suburban
sprawl)
> creeping closer and closer to the Red River, I can see the need for at
least
> getting all of the land needed for a US-82 freeway (or "I-34" facility)
> reserved well in advance.
I wonder if the Dallas North Tollway(DNT) could be extended even much
further north?
this map show a proposal of the DNT going north to Collin and Denton
counties http://www.ntta.org/pub/pub/pub_projects_index.jsp (I doubt it
could be extended even in Oklahoma but who knows with the suburban sprawl
going)
>
> I haven't been along all of US-380 north of Dallas to see if some of the
> same things are going on there. But that's another road that will have to
> be upgraded to a full Interstate level facility relatively soon.
there some maps of DFW mobility 2025
http://www.dfwinfo.com/trans/mobility2025/mainmaps.html
at this map it show US380 east of US75 upgraded to "parkway"
http://www.dfwinfo.com/trans/mobility2025/update_maps/freewaymap_large.gif
>
> Bobby Henderson
>
Stéphane Dumas
arga...@my-deja.com
> Near Gainsville and the I-35 intersection, it seems like there are long term
> plans to improve the road into a fully limited access Interstate class
> facility. A good amount of US-82 between Gainsville and Sherman works as
> Interstate standard limited access. The exit numbers don't make much sense.
> They're getting up into the 600 - 650 range, but where US-82 enters Texas
> from New Mexico isn't quite that far away. So I don't know the basis for
> those exit numberings.
Were there either mileposts, or route marker shields spaced at regular
four-mile intervals with white-on-green number strips attached to the
posts immediately beneath the shields? Did the milepost or strip
numbers correspond with the exit numbers? If the answer to both is
yes, then this sounds normal for Texas. Although Texas mileposts do
count up from the southern or western state line in the normal manner,
I haven't encountered any instances where the milepointing on two-lane
Texas state highways starts at zero at the state line. In fact, where
U.S. 54 eastbound enters Texas for the second and last time near Nara
Visa, N.M., the mile numbering starts at 410 or so, which is slightly
more than the total distance from the El Paso border crossing where it
first enters Texas (369 miles, 348 of which is in New Mexico). U.S.
67 starts at mile 528 (approximately) at the Presidio-Ojinaga border
crossing.
Rodney Schmisseur
> I wonder if the Dallas North Tollway(DNT) could be extended even much
> further north?
> this map show a proposal of the DNT going north to Collin and Denton
> counties http://www.ntta.org/pub/pub/pub_projects_index.jsp (I doubt it
> could be extended even in Oklahoma but who knows with the suburban sprawl
> going)
> >
I have heard discussion of ultimately connecting the DNT with I-35 in the
Sanger area -- but nothing as far north as US-82. While there is
considerable development along I-35 -- a Wal-Mart distribution center just
north of Sanger opened in the last couple years -- and to a much lesser
extent along US-377, there is still 30 miles of wide open spaces between
Denton and Gainesville. Sanger, Pilot Point, and Aubrey are all small
towns -- growing, yes -- but there's lots of fairly large land holding
(primarily horse ranches) that will slow development beyond the immediate
corridors. There are some subdivisions and trailer courts sprinkled here
and there -- but it's going to be quite awhile -- The
Sherman/Dennison/McKinney corridor has quite a head start in the "race to
the Red" for Dallas sprawl.
US-380 carries considerable traffic, and without stoplights, is almost
uncrossable between Ponder and Denton during daylight hours. The
construction between the Denton Loop and the US-377 split east of Lake
Lewisville was very nicely (and quickly) done and hopefully will be
continued all the way to McKinney -- but while access is limited, controlled
access isn't going to happen anytime soon.
- Rod
US 71
"Bobby Henderson" <arow...@mail.sirinet.net> wrote in message
news:v2tr3p8...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> After Sherman, US-82 goes to being a combination of limited access four
lane
> with interchanges, four lane with at grade intersections and even two lane
> with limited access interchanges. Many of the two lane portions with
> limited access interchanges have the extra ROW in place (and even a lot of
> the landscaping done) for the second carriageway. One of the wierd things
> about the Super2 interchanges is there is commonly some other at grade
> right/left turn intersections for less traveled roads on either end of the
> interchange.
>
Last time I was through Paris, there was construction on the loop (286?)
around the south side of town near TX 19. The road was being 4 laned. Did
you happend to get that way and notice if it was finished?
Jonathan Fosburgh
> Were there either mileposts, or route marker shields spaced at regular
> four-mile intervals with white-on-green number strips attached to the
> posts immediately beneath the shields? Did the milepost or strip
> numbers correspond with the exit numbers? If the answer to both is
> yes, then this sounds normal for Texas. Although Texas mileposts do
> count up from the southern or western state line in the normal manner,
> I haven't encountered any instances where the milepointing on two-lane
> Texas state highways starts at zero at the state line. In fact, where
> U.S. 54 eastbound enters Texas for the second and last time near Nara
> Visa, N.M., the mile numbering starts at 410 or so, which is slightly
> more than the total distance from the El Paso border crossing where it
> first enters Texas (369 miles, 348 of which is in New Mexico). U.S.
> 67 starts at mile 528 (approximately) at the Presidio-Ojinaga border
> crossing.
>
To add to the general confusion, there is (or was, it's been about 10 years
since I was at this location) such a sign on US-190 near Onalaska, one of
the route markers with the white on green number strips just below it that
reads 0. This has always perplexed me because I had previously assumed
that these were mile markers, but here is a reading of 0 in the middle of a
highway and still over a hundred miles from the state line!
The exit numbers on US-82 are also a puzzle. This is the only non-
Interstate in Texas that I am personally aware of that has exit numbers on
it. Even US-59 in Houston has no exit numbers on it (unless there are a
few oddballs I've missed, and it is certainly much more important that US-
82 is ...
Bobby Henderson
news:485ebc3b.03012...@posting.google.com...
> Were there either mileposts, or route marker shields spaced at regular
> four-mile intervals with white-on-green number strips attached to the
> posts immediately beneath the shields? Did the milepost or strip
> numbers correspond with the exit numbers? If the answer to both is
> yes, then this sounds normal for Texas.
I didn't see any milepost markers at all on US-82 in North Texas. That's
one reason why those 600-650 exit numberings struck me as more than a bit
odd. I suppose it could be the distance from that point to Las Cruces, NM
where US-82 terminates.
Bobby Henderson
Bobby Henderson
news:P9LX9.7450$bL4.7...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Last time I was through Paris, there was construction on the loop (286?)
> around the south side of town near TX 19. The road was being 4 laned. Did
> you happend to get that way and notice if it was finished?
Nope, I was just around on the north side of the loop. And that area of the
road really needs to be fully controlled limited access with perhaps some
frontage roads on the sides.
The auto dealership for whom we were installing new signs told us lots of
horror stories about fatal car accidents near the location along TX Loop
286. The problem is there are at grade intersections and crossovers at
various parts of the loop. The combination of rolling terrain and turns on
the loop hide fast oncoming traffic from people trying to turn into or cross
the highway. The auto dealership owner talked about one recent accident
where a vehicle was broadsided while attempting to make a left turn into the
westbound lanes. One of the people in the car was killed. The first
ambulance to arrive on the scene was then hit by another speeding motorist
and one of the EMTs was killed.
Crossovers on four lane roads with Interstate style interchanges need to be
severely restricted into being used only in the safest possible locations.
When motorists drive on these roads they have the same habits as anyone
driving on a full fledged Interstate. Motorists driving 70mph or more
cannot stop if they come over the crest of a hill to find someone turning
right in front of them. Crossovers should be allowed only when traffic has
a good 10 to 20 seconds worth of traveling visibility before reaching the
turn. Otherwise they should be absolutely, totally outlawed.
Bobby Henderson
SPUI
> The exit numbers on US-82 are also a puzzle. This is the only non-
> Interstate in Texas that I am personally aware of that has exit numbers on
> it. Even US-59 in Houston has no exit numbers on it (unless there are a
> few oddballs I've missed, and it is certainly much more important that US-
> 82 is ...
US 75 in and north of Dallas has exit numbers. I think US 59 north of
downtown Houston used to back when it was first built (US 75 south of
downtown Houston and US 75 north of downtown Dallas also had early exit
numbers).
--
Dan Moraseski - 15th grade at MIT
http://web.mit.edu/spui/www/ - FL NJ MA route logs and exit lists
Patrick Humphrey
[...]
>The exit numbers on US-82 are also a puzzle. This is the only non-
>Interstate in Texas that I am personally aware of that has exit numbers on it.
>Even US-59 in Houston has no exit numbers on it (unless there are a few
>oddballs I've missed, and it is certainly much more important that US-
>82 is ...
59 through Houston has never had exit numbers that I know of, but prior to the
Southwest Freeway's rehab in the early '90s (which added the HOV lane from the
Fort Bend line in to its current end at S. Shepherd/Greenbriar), there were
small black-on-white 1/10-mile markers in the fence atop the median jersey
wall, and they increased as 59 headed south. The 31.0 marker was right around
the West Loop, implying that the zero marker would have been the
Harris/Montgomery County line up in Kingwood. Other than that, no other
non-Interstate freeway in the area has ever had even mile markers -- but in
the last year, the HCTRA *have* put up tiny white-on-green mile markers along
the median jersey wall of the Sam Houston Tollway system. The zero point
isn't marked, but it's at the start of the toll section headed westbound from
I-45 on the north side, and increases as you go west, then south, then east,
and north. Currently, it's marked up to I-10 on the east side, but the
non-toll freeway from there up to the future US 90 freeway has no mile markers
-- the total length, when the northeast section of the Beltway is built, will
be around 88 miles.
--PLH, living about two miles east of what would be Exit 25 on the West Sam
Patrick Humphrey
>Jonathan Fosburgh wrote:
>> The exit numbers on US-82 are also a puzzle. This is the only non-
>> Interstate in Texas that I am personally aware of that has exit numbers on
>> it. Even US-59 in Houston has no exit numbers on it (unless there are a
>> few oddballs I've missed, and it is certainly much more important that US-
>> 82 is ...
>US 75 in and north of Dallas has exit numbers. I think US 59 north of
>downtown Houston used to back when it was first built (US 75 south of
>downtown Houston and US 75 north of downtown Dallas also had early exit
>numbers).
Thanks for joggling the memory...the US 59 Eastex Freeway *did* have exit
numbers (sequential, of course) up to about 1967, but they only went as far as
the city limits, IIRC. US 75 had them as well, dating back to the original
opening of the Gulf Freeway in 1948, and those numbers persisted until the
freeway was rehabbed in the early 1980s -- by which time it had been signed as
I-45 for over 20 years. (I spent five years at U of H, and if you were going
there from downtown, you took Exit 3 to get to Cullen Boulevard; inbounders
from the south took Exit 4 to get to Elgin.)
One question: I'd forgotten all about the numbered exits on the US 75 Central
Expressway in Dallas and northward -- but how were they numbered? The numbers
managed to match the mileage fairly closely, but I don't remember any gaps in
the numbering...I'm thinking they're sequential, but it's been five years
since I was last up that stretch.
--PLH, who likes the mileage-based numbers -- 240 miles from Houston's
Spaghetti Bowl to I-30 in Dallas, no problem
Jonathan Fosburgh
wrote:
.
>
> US 75 in and north of Dallas has exit numbers. I think US 59 north of
> downtown Houston used to back when it was first built (US 75 south of
> downtown Houston and US 75 north of downtown Dallas also had early exit
> numbers).
>
I grew up in Dalls and don't remember that at all. When did it have them
or are they new since 75 was rebuilt?
arga...@my-deja.com
> To add to the general confusion, there is (or was, it's been about 10 years
> since I was at this location) such a sign on US-190 near Onalaska, one of
> the route markers with the white on green number strips just below it that
> reads 0. This has always perplexed me because I had previously assumed
> that these were mile markers, but here is a reading of 0 in the middle of a
> highway and still over a hundred miles from the state line!
It would be interesting to find out the rule for assigning numbers to
these mileage strips. Do you happen to remember what the number was
to the west (south?) of "0"?
> The exit numbers on US-82 are also a puzzle. This is the only non-
> Interstate in Texas that I am personally aware of that has exit numbers on
> it. Even US-59 in Houston has no exit numbers on it (unless there are a
> few oddballs I've missed, and it is certainly much more important that US-
> 82 is ...
I don't know about the current state of U.S. 59 (never having
travelled on it in Texas), but apparently exit numbers are to be
installed on a portion of it through Angelina County as part of a
Tx.D.O.T. sign rehabilitation contract (Angelina 0911-00-051 in the
February 2003 letting--plans are on Tx.D.O.T.'s plans server right now
and are a relatively easy download). Bizarrely, however, the exit
tabs do not have the word "EXIT" followed by the number--instead they
have just the number. Exit numbers covered by this contract are in
the range 432 to 436, with (e.g.) Exit 436A being F.M. 1988 and BUS
U.S. 59 to Lake Livingston State Park, and Exit 434D being BUS U.S. 59
and Pedigo Park (all of these in the general vicinity of Nacogdoches &
Lufkin).
Patrick Humphrey
>[Mr. Fosburgh:]
>> To add to the general confusion, there is (or was, it's been about 10 years
>> since I was at this location) such a sign on US-190 near Onalaska, one of
>> the route markers with the white on green number strips just below it that
>> reads 0. This has always perplexed me because I had previously assumed
>> that these were mile markers, but here is a reading of 0 in the middle of a
>> highway and still over a hundred miles from the state line!
>It would be interesting to find out the rule for assigning numbers to
>these mileage strips. Do you happen to remember what the number was
>to the west (south?) of "0"?
If you're talking about the little white=on-green signs just below the highway
marker, those aren't mileposts, but reference markers based on some arcane
TxDOT system, IIRC. They *do* translate to mileage, but not without having to
refer to a listing for that particular route.
>> The exit numbers on US-82 are also a puzzle. This is the only non-
>> Interstate in Texas that I am personally aware of that has exit numbers on
>> it. Even US-59 in Houston has no exit numbers on it (unless there are a
>> few oddballs I've missed, and it is certainly much more important that US-
>> 82 is ...
>I don't know about the current state of U.S. 59 (never having
>travelled on it in Texas), but apparently exit numbers are to be
>installed on a portion of it through Angelina County as part of a
>Tx.D.O.T. sign rehabilitation contract (Angelina 0911-00-051 in the
>February 2003 letting--plans are on Tx.D.O.T.'s plans server right now
>and are a relatively easy download). Bizarrely, however, the exit
>tabs do not have the word "EXIT" followed by the number--instead they
>have just the number. Exit numbers covered by this contract are in
>the range 432 to 436, with (e.g.) Exit 436A being F.M. 1988 and BUS
>U.S. 59 to Lake Livingston State Park, and Exit 434D being BUS U.S. 59
>and Pedigo Park (all of these in the general vicinity of Nacogdoches &
>Lufkin).
Not quite -- FM 1988 and Lake Livingston State Park are in Polk County, a good
50 miles south of Lufkin (and 70 from Nacogdoches). (FM 1988 crosses 59 twice
-- once at the south end of the Livingston bypass, and then a few miles
southward in Goodrich.) Apparently the exit numbers are based on a zero mile
mark at 59's southern terminus at I-35 in Laredo.
--PLH, it's a start -- now, if they'll run I-69 along current US 59, that
means no need to change mileposts or exit numbers
SPUI
> One question: I'd forgotten all about the numbered exits on the US 75
Central
> Expressway in Dallas and northward -- but how were they numbered? The
numbers
> managed to match the mileage fairly closely, but I don't remember any gaps
in
> the numbering...I'm thinking they're sequential, but it's been five years
> since I was last up that stretch.
>
The strange thing about the early TX exit numbers is that they were
sequential by ramp order rather than road. So the exit in one direction for
a certain road may be a different number than the other direction, since the
exit ramps are in different places.
SPUI
US 75 still has exit numbers, but they are now mile-based inside I-635.
Outside I-635, US 75 still has the old sequential numbers.
Patrick Humphrey
>Patrick Humphrey wrote:
>> One question: I'd forgotten all about the numbered exits on the US 75
>> Central Expressway in Dallas and northward -- but how were they numbered?
>> The numbers managed to match the mileage fairly closely, but I don't
>> remember any gaps in the numbering...I'm thinking they're sequential, but
>> it's been five years since I was last up that stretch.
>They were sequential; the numbers north of I-635 still follow the pattern.
Thanks...at least my memory's still functional to that extent. :-)
>The strange thing about the early TX exit numbers is that they were
>sequential by ramp order rather than road. So the exit in one direction for
>a certain road may be a different number than the other direction, since the
>exit ramps are in different places.
The pre-rehab Gulf Freeway (I-45) had that feature, as well -- the Cullen exit
was 3 both ways, but access to the UH main campus was easier for inbounders by
taking Exit 4, which was Elgin/Ernestine/Lockwood (and had no outbound exit,
being just the other side of the HB&T tracks).
--PLH, glad the mileposts are used now
Jonathan Fosburgh
> It would be interesting to find out the rule for assigning numbers to
> these mileage strips. Do you happen to remember what the number was
> to the west (south?) of "0"?
>
I don't know that I ever remembered what the numbers on the signs to the
east and west, but I certainly don't know now. I'm reasonably certain
that at least in one direction it made no sense at all, going from
something like 400 to 0. Usually it would be getting dark about this time
(if it wasn't already dark by the time we got there, we were coming from
Dallas to visit family in Hull) and so I may not have been able to see the
ones past it very often. And as I say, it has already been 10 years since
I have been this way.
arga...@my-deja.com
> I didn't see any milepost markers at all on US-82 in North Texas. That's
> one reason why those 600-650 exit numberings struck me as more than a bit
> odd. I suppose it could be the distance from that point to Las Cruces, NM
> where US-82 terminates.
But in fact U.S. 82 appears no longer to terminate at Las Cruces. It
was concurrent with U.S. 54 and U.S. 70 from Alamogordo onward and it
appears to have been retracted fairly recently to its junction with
U.S. 54-70 just north of Alamogordo, although I have seen a few stray
(and old) U.S. 82 shields between Alamogordo and Las Cruces. I don't
remember whether I saw a terminus assembly for U.S. 82 when I visited
Alamogordo for the first time in March 1998, but I can say positively
(having photographed the relevant signage) that U.S. 82 appears on
none of the new guide signs installed when the Alamogordo Relief Route
was completed between 1998 and 2001, except for a M2-2 "JUNCTION" sign
at the north end of the Relief Route. (U.S. 82 and the Relief Route
are, respectively, the east and west arms of the same intersection
with U.S. 54-70 just north of Alamogordo's built-up area.)
That said, it is 195 miles from U.S. 82's apparent current terminus to
the Texas state line, and a further 294 miles from the Texas state
line to Wichita Falls. The stretch marked as a freeway/expressway on
the Tx.D.O.T. state map begins 48 miles to the east, at Nocona, and
ends 69 miles later at Sherman. Alamogordo to Nocona is therefore 547
miles. So it is not an unreasonable suggestion that U.S. 82's
milepointing in Texas is based on its historic terminus in Las Cruces,
which is a total of 615 miles from Nocona.
Rte66man
Too true. That Loop is a bastardized road. Full interchanges at the major
intersections combined with way too many at grade crossovers scared teh crap
out of me when I drove it last summer.
Rte66man
Bobby Henderson
wrote in message news:_oBY9.47337$1b.1...@news1.central.cox.net...
>
> "Bobby Henderson" <arow...@mail.sirinet.net> wrote in message
> news:v307u6a...@corp.supernews.com...
> > to be severely restricted into being used only in the safest possible
> > locations. When motorists drive on these roads they have the same
> > habits as anyone driving on a full fledged Interstate. Motorists
> > driving 70mph or more cannot stop if they come over the crest of
> > a hill to find someone turning right in front of them. Crossovers
> > should be allowed only when traffic has a good 10 to 20 seconds
> > worth of traveling visibility before reaching the
> > turn. Otherwise they should be absolutely, totally outlawed.
>
> Too true. That Loop is a bastardized road. Full interchanges at the major
> intersections combined with way too many at grade crossovers scared teh
crap
> out of me when I drove it last summer.
I have a feeling many of the crossovers and driveways were allowed on Loop
286 to make local business owners and residents happy. But the extremely
unfortunate thing is that those considerations were put ahead of driver
safety and have gotten motorists killed. If it were up to me, I would do
away with almost every crossover and direct driveway on that route.
Bobby Henderson