An idea for the Detroit area ...
Larry
I had plenty of time to think, and my thoughts wandered to the
almost-constant gridlock present on Detroit-area freeways. If I were
MDOT, I would look into building at least one of the ideas I had
yesterday: I call it Interstate 875.
Just north of the state line, near the Erie/Temperance area, I would
build a short southeast-to-northwest freeway spur over to US 23, and
give it the I-875 designation. I-875 would continue all the way up to
at least just south of Fenton along 23, if not all the way up to the
23-75 merge. (I figure why have 875 and 475 both running parallel to
75, even though the two would be serving as bypasses of different
cities. But it would be easy enough to have 875/23 traffic just use 75
to eastbound I-69 to access downtown Flint.)
Such a bypass would do what I-275 was doomed never to be able to do,
and require less actual road-building than finishing 275 (over
objections of NIMBYs) would call for. If nothing else, you'll take a
lot of Toledo and south-to-Flint traffic off 275, which could
certainly use the relief.
I was also considering a better, longer I-94 bypass of Detroit, which
I called I-494. (Trust me, we all know how bad 275 and 696 get at
times.) However, when I got to thinking about where it would go, I
realized it was pretty well doomed. I was going to route it off 94 at
M-14 west of Ann Arbor, then up 23 toward Hartland/Holly/Fenton or
somewhere in there, then along new alignment in the northernmost
(still undeveloped, mostly) couple miles of Oakland County. Once it
hit Macomb, mainline 494 would have turned southeast to head for Mt.
Clemens or so, while I also would have provided a short spur up to
I-69 between Lapeer and Capac. But then I got to thinking, who goes
through Detroit (not stopping there) on I-94? It's mostly Macomb
suburbs traffic and the few vehicles that bypass the Ambassador Bridge
and Detroit-Windsor Tunnel to go use the Blue Water Bridge. The
Canada-bound traffic counts wouldn't justify 494's existence, and I'd
be asking Macomb suburban traffic to go at least 25 miles out of the
way. Unless we can build a long elevated freeway with no exits over
Canada and have it cross Lake St. Clair somewhere ... :) (Canada
presents a problem in constructing a good I-94 bypass, in that you
can't cross the border to do it.)
Any feedback?
Larry
Jeff Leadbeater
Flint. Why overcomplicate things?
Jeff Leadbeater
"Larry" <harv...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f328640e.03081...@posting.google.com...
Nicole-o-matic
difficult to get them built because of obstructive laws, funding
shortages, and working around environmental sensitive land. And of
course MDOT isn't able to even repair the existing roads much of the
time, and often the major arterials are filled with some of the worst
potholes I've ever seen.
harv...@hotmail.com (Larry) wrote in message news:<f328640e.03081...@posting.google.com>...
I am NOT Gene Wood!
> I dunno... I say call it I-475 and connect it to the current one south of
> Flint. Why overcomplicate things?
>
Flint, and connect it to I-475 in Flint...
Joe Land
I-96/I-696/I-275 intersection. It looks like it needs to be. I think they
should run it all the way to I-94 north of 26 Mile Rd.
Just my .02¢ worth.
Chris Bessert
> A lot of roads might be needed to relieve traffic congestion, but it's
> difficult to get them built because of obstructive laws, funding
> shortages, and working around environmental sensitive land. And of
> course MDOT isn't able to even repair the existing roads much of the
> time, and often the major arterials are filled with some of the worst
> potholes I've ever seen.
Then again, it truly depends on where you are in Michigan. Today, there
really are seven "MDOTs" -- one for each department subregion. (See
http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/1,1607,7-151-9623_10695---,00.html .) It
was John Engler who decided MDOT should be very much DE-centralized
so that more of the decision-making process would take place closer
to the people and roads in question. Of course, what this has also
done, IMHO, is made communication within MDOT even worse than it his-
torically has been. This, each region almost acts as its own little
version of MDOT and you can often notice major differences when you
cross county lines.
The more egregious of these changes, IMO, was along M-14 as you crossed
between Wayne and Washtenaw counties between Ann Arbor and Livonia.
In Wayne Co, M-14 was the worst, most pothole-ridden, bumpiest, least
maintained freeway I've seen recently. BUT, once you hit Napier Rd
and crossed into Washtenaw Co, you were on a smooth, maintained free-
way that had seen some major maintenance in c.1998 and was dimond-
ground in ares where new concrete hadn't been laid, resulting in a
very smooth surface. Why such a difference at the county line? Well,
Wayne Co is in the MDOT Metro Region while Washtenaw is in the Univer-
sity Region.
Yet another case-in-point was the recent but EXTREMELY unnecessary
(IMO) redesignation of US-27 to US-127 north of Lansing. The North
and Bay Regions (apparently working together--imagine that!) had the
vast majority of US-27 and its Business Connections converted over to
US-127 signage in the course of a week or two, in almost Blitzkreig
fashion. On the other hand, the University Region saw fit to take
MONTHS to convert the signs. Thus, motorists saw the following: US-27
ends in Fort Wayne IN at I-69's Exit 111, but magically re-appeared
at Lansing where I-69 and US-127 intersect. US-27 then continued north-
erly through Clinton Co (with BUS US-27 routings at Lansing and St
Johns) until it suddenly and magically "became" US-127 at the Clinton/
Gratiot Co line and remained US-127 all the way to Grayling*. And, to
top it off, these US-27/127 "magical reappearances" occurred during
the summer tourist season. It's bad enough there were millions of maps
in motorists hands which featured "US-27" heading north from Lansing
to Grayling -- but if the entire highway was signed as US-127, there
would only be one level of confusion. MDOT's University Region just
HAD to complicate it by removing US-27 markers in one area and not in
others. So, where motorists may have been expecting to see US-27,
instead they were confronted with just I-69, I-69/US-27, US-27, US-127,
etc. So much for intradepartmental communication!
I could go on with other examples of how MDOT's right hand has no idea
a left hand even exists, let alone what it's doing... but I've ram-
bled on too long already!
Later,
Chris
--
Chris Bessert
Bess...@aol.com
http://www.michiganhighways.org
http://www.wisconsinhighways.org
http://www.ontariohighways.org
Chris Bessert
> [...] I call it Interstate 875.
>
> Just north of the state line, near the Erie/Temperance area, I would
> build a short southeast-to-northwest freeway spur over to US 23, and
> give it the I-875 designation.
Well, here's where the first breakdown occurs, and for two reasons.
First, no one's ever going to be able to get a freeway built between
I-75 and US-23 in southern Monroe County. The locals in the area
already shot down the proposed "I-73" connection that was part of a
larger plan to route a freeway between Toledo and Jackson. They fought
the "northern Toledo bypass" with such verocity that I doubt MDOT
will try that again anytime soon. The other reason why such a route
is unnecessary is such a connection--and a much better one at that--
already exists: US-23 already hits I-75 on the south side of Perrys-
burg, south of Toledo. If you want to bypass Detroit, why force
people to go through Toledo first? The US-23 route--long known as
and used for a Detroit bypass--already runs from I-75 near Perrys-
burg to I-75 at Flint. No need to build additional roads. Now, add-
itional capacity... that's another story!
> Such a bypass would do what I-275 was doomed never to be able to do,
...and what US-23 has been doing since 1964. Excuse me if I sound
a little harsh, but what would adding new red-white-and-blue signs
do to help traffic bypass Detroit? The route exists today and has
for forty years--even before I-75 was completed through Detroit!
I know there are some out there who disagree with me on this, but
MDOT is on my side on this one: who gives a flying fig what color
or shape the route markers are? I'd rather have an appropriate
type of roadway rather than a pretty multi-colored route marker
any day. From even before the Interstate highway system even ex-
isted, Michigan has been building freeways where they were needed,
not where they could get a certain type of route marker, funding
or what have you. Seriously, what would adding another route des-
ignation to an existing freeway do?
If anyone answers, "Well, it would give motorists an easy-to-
follow bypass route for getting around Detroit," I have one re-
ply: "What's so difficult about the number '23'?" Seriously,
following one route number from south of Perrysburg to Flint will
get you were you need to go. (Hell, it's a third less digits for
those 'mathematically-challenged folks' out there!) Plus, it's
a designation which has been there 75 years--why change it now?
Plus, if anyone thinks people are reluctant to take US-23 be-
cause it doesn't feature a multi-colored route marker symbol
on their road map or on the overhead freeway signs, that's their
problem, not mine. Thousands of people every day are able to
comprehend that US-23 is a freeway, why should my precious tax
dollars go to erecting hundreds of thousands of dollars of new
signs just to help the six people out there who don't believe
that what is shown on their map as a freeway is really a freeway?
If people would just learn how to properly read maps, we wouldn't
need all these useless Interstate designations all over the place,
like I-39 to Wausau (duplicating existing US-51) or I-99 (dupli-
cating existing US-220) in Pennsylvania. If those looking to
expand or move their commercial or industrial enterprises to areas
with "Interstate access" would realize they actually need "freeway
access" because the only thing an Interstate gets you are multi-
colored route markers and nothing else.
> and require less actual road-building than finishing 275 (over
> objections of NIMBYs) would call for. If nothing else, you'll take a
> lot of Toledo and south-to-Flint traffic off 275, which could
> certainly use the relief.
Actually, a large percentage of US-23 traffic today is Toledo-
Flint traffic, as evidenced by the number of out-of-state license
plates one sees while driving on that freeway. The traffic volume
on US-23 would increase very little with the extra route markers,
if at all.
> I was also considering a better, longer I-94 bypass of Detroit, which
> I called I-494. (Trust me, we all know how bad 275 and 696 get at
> times.) However, when I got to thinking about where it would go, I
> realized it was pretty well doomed.
Especially noting I-69 serves that purpose well, for the long-distance
travellers.
> I was going to route it off 94 at
> M-14 west of Ann Arbor, then up 23 toward Hartland/Holly/Fenton or
> somewhere in there, then along new alignment in the northernmost
> (still undeveloped, mostly) couple miles of Oakland County.
Wouldn't be a snowball's chance in Hell of getting any kind of
freeway across northern Oakland County, for several reasons. First,
all that land is owned by either the state (as in state parks and
recreation areas) or by the same rich NIMBYs who fought so hard to
stop the same highway they're bitching doesn't exist today to get
them to work and the store faster: I-275. Mind you, in 20 years,
these same people are going to complain to MDOT that they were
negligent in not building a freeway there to get them to work or
the mall faster! The perfect example of "Don't Built It and They'll
Come Anyway."
> Any feedback?
Ask and ye shall receive, eh? Hey, don't take any of my comments above
that sound a little harsh personally. I've just got a few strong
opinions on this topic... :^)
Chris Bessert
> Are there any plans to extend I-275 any farther north of the
> I-96/I-696/I-275 intersection.
There's no simple answer to this question, but here's the simplest
way I can put it: No, yes, maybe, possibly, never and definately.
Seriously, I-275 will NEVER be built on its once-proposed alignment
through central Oakland Co. That's dead and buried. (The current
M-5/Haggerty Connector expressway actually runs along the proposed
I-275 right-of-way from the I-96/I-696/I-275 interchange northerly
to Pontiac Trail. This road was built to serve the very people who
killed I-275 in the first place.) But, MDOT still believes, for what-
ever reason, that an Oakland County Corridor heading northerly from
I-96 will still be built someday. Where and how is one of life's
greatest mysteries, but then again, so is MDOT. In a recently-con-
cluded study, it was determined no major highways would be built in
that area, but various band-aid improvements to certain routes would
suffice... until next week Thursday when the traffic problems only
continue to get worse and the locals who bitched to get I-275 killed
in the first place bitch more, but now about how there are no major
arteries in their area. Basically, they shot themselves in their own
feet and want to blame it on the RCOC and MDOT.
So, the first several proposals for I-275 or an I-275-like route (e.g.
M-275) are quite dead in reality. Now, whether MDOT will ever be
able to construct *some* kind of arterial route through Oakland Co,
I highly doubt it, but as someone here likes to say, never say "never."
If MDOT believes there will be some kind of highway in this area
(VERY unlikely to be anything more than a five-lane undivided highway
at best), they may be either dillusional or very optimistic.
> It looks like it needs to be.
Amen, brother. Ever driven in the area on the county road network?
18-hour backups on the two-lane arteries are commonplace. No road
goes "through" anywhere -- they all eventually stop-and-restart or
wind around and zig-zag somewhere else. I'd say the lack of a com-
pleted I-275 is one of Oakland County's biggest handicaps from now
into the future. To build the roads the county needs to move all those
people and goods, it will cost the Road Commission for Oakland County
BILLIONS of dollars it doesn't have. If these people want their arter-
ials now, the money will have to come directly out of their own
pockets. In the 1970s, the state and federal governments were willing
to foot the bill and spread the cost out among 280 million people.
Oh well...
> I think they
> should run it all the way to I-94 north of 26 Mile Rd.
Wow.
> Just my .02¢ worth.
That's not very much. Two-tenths of a cent? I'd say I rambled on enough
above to qualify for adding at least my own $6.73-worth!
Doug Weasner
"Chris Bessert" <Bess...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3F409714...@aol.com...
<snip>
> Wouldn't be a snowball's chance in Hell of getting any kind of
> freeway across northern Oakland County, for several reasons. First,
Actually, a snowball does have a chance in Hell for about 4 months out of
the year.
<snip>
--
Doug Weasner | Greenwood IN |
I don't need a stoplight to tell me it's my turn to go.
I need a stoplight to tell everyone else it's my turn to go.
Craig Holl
> Joe Land wrote:
>
>> Just my .02¢ worth.
>>
> That's not very much. Two-tenths of a cent? I'd say I rambled on
> enough above to qualify for adding at least my own $6.73-worth!
Actually, that's two-hundreths of a cent. And you complain about Bobby and his
'facts'. :)
--
Craig Holl
Mechanical Engineer; New Berlin, WI
www.midwestroads.com
*remove all numbers and caps to reply*
I am NOT Gene Wood!
> Chris Bessert wrote:
> > Joe Land wrote:
> >
> >> Just my .02¢ worth.
> >>
> > That's not very much. Two-tenths of a cent? I'd say I rambled on
> > enough above to qualify for adding at least my own $6.73-worth!
>
> Actually, that's two-hundreths of a cent. And you complain about Bobby and his
> 'facts'. :)
I KNEW IT!!! I KNEW it was gonna happen!!! Booya (or however the heck
you spell that), Bessert!
Eric Nyman
especially in Michigan given our abundance of non-interstate freeways,
can figure out by looking at a map that US-23 is a freeway, and I
don't think it would help much to slap on I-875 shields. I don't
really feel that any new interstate bypasses of Detroit are necessary
(except of course the I-275 extension which won't happen); expand
US-23 to 6 lanes all the way from Toledo to Flint if it is
overburdened with traffic, especially the stretch from Ann Arbor to
Flint which always seems to be worse than the Toledo to Ann Arbor
portion. Unfortunately a lot of US-23 would be difficult to expand.
I-275 is expandable, however, and probably should be 8 lanes from I-94
to I-96/M-14 and 10 lanes on the multiplex with I-96 (maybe a HOV lane
for the left lane if any new lanes are added to 275?).
Guy Olsen
Soemthing that WOULD put more traffic on US-23, probably forcing the
widening issue: a direct interchange between I-475 and
I-80/90/OH-Tpk.
Last October, myself and a friend were both heading to a park west of
Ann Arbor, and we tested alternative routes from the Tpk: I took I-75
and I-475; he used the indirect interchange to I-475. I won by at
least 5 minutes. I wonder how fast I-280 - I-75 - I-475 will be once
the bridge construction is complete...?
Guy Olsen, PE
Larry
Understood on the strong opinions, but I guess I have a few
questions/points of contention.
(1) Wasn't the planned I-73 going to be west of 23 (i.e., along 223),
rather than east of 23 where I was placing my hypothetical 875?
(2) I honestly do think 23 could use an Interstate designation, even
if it's nothing but new shields going up. (It's my tax money too!) :)
As you said, there is quite a bit of traffic with plates other than
blue-and-whites (or Mackinac Bridges), so it's pretty obvious that
stretch of 23 serves multi-state purposes. It would probably be a more
proper interstate than, say, I-97 or currently configured I-99. But
that said, perhaps new freeway alignments aren't necessary to do it;
just make it a long, bi-state 475 from Perrysburg to Flint, with the
current 475 between Sylvania and the Jeep plant becoming 875 in Ohio.
(3) Obviously, sections of 23 are hurting for additional lanes. It may
not be that bad from Sylvania to Milan, but really from about MP 30
on, it needs to be six lanes at least all the way to Brighton and
I-96. I understand MDOT is planning to undertake a project to do this
from the western jct. with M-14 up to 96, but it needs to be done at
least down past I-94. And honestly, it probably wouldn't hurt to make
it six lanes all the way to I-75, especially given the traffic I've
seen through northern Livingston County when I've been up and down
that way.
(4) Yeah, it's unfortunate that 275 will never be finished, but I've
never maintained that the good people of central Oakland County are
all that high in intelligence ... :) I would bet you're right, nothing
more than a five-lane undivided arterial is ever likely to prevent
extensive litigation by those folks.
Larry
Marc Fannin
> Chris Bessert <Bess...@aol.com> wrote...
>
> > Larry wrote:
> >
> > > [...] I call it Interstate 875.
> >
> > ...and what US-23 has been doing since 1964. Excuse me if I sound
> > a little harsh, but what would adding new red-white-and-blue signs
> > do to help traffic bypass Detroit? The route exists today and has
> > for forty years--even before I-75 was completed through Detroit!
> >
> > If anyone answers, "Well, it would give motorists an easy-to-
> > follow bypass route for getting around Detroit," I have one re-
> > ply: "What's so difficult about the number '23'?" [snip]
> >
> > Plus, if anyone thinks people are reluctant to take US-23 be-
> > cause it doesn't feature a multi-colored route marker symbol
> > on their road map or on the overhead freeway signs, that's their
> > problem, not mine. Thousands of people every day are able to
> > comprehend that US-23 is a freeway, why should my precious tax
> > dollars go to erecting hundreds of thousands of dollars of new
> > signs just to help the six people out there who don't believe
> > that what is shown on their map as a freeway is really a freeway?
>
> Understood on the strong opinions, but I guess I have a few
> questions/points of contention.
>
> (2) I honestly do think 23 could use an Interstate designation, even
> if it's nothing but new shields going up. (It's my tax money too!) :)
> As you said, there is quite a bit of traffic with plates other than
> blue-and-whites (or Mackinac Bridges), so it's pretty obvious that
> stretch of 23 serves multi-state purposes. It would probably be a more
> proper interstate than, say, I-97 or currently configured I-99. But
> that said, perhaps new freeway alignments aren't necessary to do it;
> just make it a long, bi-state 475 from Perrysburg to Flint, with the
> current 475 between Sylvania and the Jeep plant becoming 875 in Ohio.
I had a very similar idea about five years ago, with the added fact
that the existing 475 Toledo "bypass" actually connects back to I-75
closer to downtown Toledo than I-280, the business connection from
I-80 (and I-90). Here's the link:
http://groups.google.com/groups?th=692f4a30436ee7b5
I agree with the concept to siphon through traffic away, and for those
who have something against Interstate shields (which identify a
highway as specifically Interstate-grade freeway, not just basic
freeway), then call it Ohio/M-475 (or 875), to preserve a number
connection to I-75 (right now parts of the route aren't up to
Interstate standards anyway). It could even be multiplexed with US 23
rather than override it (yes, I know MDOT doesn't like
multiplexes/overlaps/et al, but I'm sure it also doesn't like
overcrowded highways). Yes, I do believe that more people would
follow an x75 than just a route labelled "23" if they wanted to take a
bypass of 75, more than just having a control of "Flint" in Toledo.
________________________________________________________________________
Marc Fannin|musx...@kent.edu or @hotmail.com| http://www.roadfan.com/
Chris Bessert
>
> I KNEW IT!!! I KNEW it was gonna happen!!! Booya (or however the heck
> you spell that), Bessert!
Okay, fine. You now have 287,388,106 errors-passed-off-as-truth, while
I'm currently sitting here at 1. That means I'm allowed 287,388,105
more before you're allowed to do your little endzone dance.
Chris Bessert
>
> Actually, that's two-hundreths of a cent. And you complain about Bobby and his
> 'facts'. :)
At least we're not tearing down our freeways in Michigan in already
congested areas... :^)
At least we're not refusing to face reality and continuing to post our
freeways at an ungodly slow 65 mph... :^P
At least *I* live in the correct side of a Great Lake! :^O
At least we don't preface the name of half of our cities with "wau"...
:^C
At least we're not the second-to-last state in the road atlas! :^|
Chris Bessert
>
> Understood on the strong opinions, but I guess I have a few
> questions/points of contention.
>
> (1) Wasn't the planned I-73 going to be west of 23 (i.e., along 223),
> rather than east of 23 where I was placing my hypothetical 875?
One of the many plans was to bring I-73 up I-280 along the east side
of Toledo, then northerly via I-75 into Michigan to somewhere in the
Erie/Luna Pier area. A new freeway would diverge from I-75 and head
'across country' over to US-23 in the US-223 area, then continue
west-northwesterly toward Adrian. Of course, other proposals did
route I-73 up I-475 and US-23 as well.
> (3) Obviously, sections of 23 are hurting for additional lanes. It may
> not be that bad from Sylvania to Milan, but really from about MP 30
> on, it needs to be six lanes at least all the way to Brighton and
> I-96. I understand MDOT is planning to undertake a project to do this
> from the western jct. with M-14 up to 96, but it needs to be done at
> least down past I-94. And honestly, it probably wouldn't hurt to make
> it six lanes all the way to I-75, especially given the traffic I've
> seen through northern Livingston County when I've been up and down
> that way.
Indeed, IMHO US-23 should be six lanes from the Ohio state line
northerly to Flint. (From the Ohio line, because ODOT doesn't think
anything leading to or from Michigan needs more than four lanes!)
And ASAP!
I am NOT Gene Wood!
> I am NOT Gene Wood! wrote:
> >
> > I KNEW IT!!! I KNEW it was gonna happen!!! Booya (or however the heck
> > you spell that), Bessert!
>
> Okay, fine. You now have 287,388,106 errors-passed-off-as-truth, while
> I'm currently sitting here at 1. That means I'm allowed 287,388,105
> more before you're allowed to do your little endzone dance.
>
> Later,
> Chris
Well, it's a start... :-P
Chris Bessert
>
> Well, it's a start... :-P
Gene,
If I sent you a check for $10, would you buy a clue?
I am NOT Gene Wood!
> Gene,
>
> If I sent you a check for $10, would you buy a clue?
>
> Later,
> Chris
Wow... $10 plus the $64 I have on me now... I am now only $176 shy of
buying a vowel!
-- This is Gene Wood speaking for Family Feud, a Mark Goodson
television production! --
I am NOT Gene Wood!
> congested areas... :^)
>
> At least we're not refusing to face reality and continuing to post our
> freeways at an ungodly slow 65 mph... :^P
Not as bad as Indiana... they're even ungodly slowER...
> At least *I* live in the correct side of a Great Lake! :^O
>
> At least we don't preface the name of half of our cities with "wau"...
> :^C
>
> At least we're not the second-to-last state in the road atlas! :^|
Preach on Chris! You tell them Cheeseheads what we're made of!