US - Canada Border Crossings (How Much Do They Track?)
Craig Lake
attending a family event. When I arrived at Customs in Detroit, the
first thing the agent said was "So what's happening in Buffalo?" How
would he know that's where I came from? I didn't have anything out
and obvious in my car indicating where I was coming from, and he
didn't inspect my car prior to arriving at the booth (which he never
left) or questioning me. He either made a wild ass guess, or there's
some sort of database that I'm not aware of which tracked my departure
from the Buffalo border crossing some 5 hours prior to my arrival in
Detroit, and he had access to that by scanning my license plate before
I arrived at the booth (which would be spooky). Anyone have any ideas
on what happened?
Lance Lamboy
Possibly he looked at the stamps in your passport.
--
Lance Lamboy
"Go F*ck Yourself" ~ Dick Cheney
Josh Crockett
Even if he had a passport (not necessary for US/CA citizens), generally
the land border crossings don't bother stamping unless asked.
I've been told that there's an international database of border
crossings keyed to passport number, in a conversation with a US BCIS
officer at the American border station in the Montreal airport. It
seems only rational that they would do the same thing with vehicle
license plates across the US/Canadian border -- neither side wants you
(a) overstaying your allowed time, or (b) selling your car without
jumping through all the necessary import hoops.
As for why the border officer would show his hand by mentioning what he
knows, the one commonality between all border officers I've seen in
every country is a tendency toward the power trip. So he probably said
it just to screw with you.
I can top this in terms of slightly worrisome border security -- I
roadtripped from Virginia to Toronto in April, and crossed the Peace
Bridge in Buffalo/Ft. Erie at about midnight Sunday night, slightly
zoned out from 8.5 straight hours on the road. When I pulled up in my
VA-plated vehicle that hadn't seen an international border since
Volkswagen brought it into the States, the Canadian border agent had no
interest whatsoever in any of my "papers" -- no driver's license,
passport, vehicle registration, insurance or anything. He let me in in
two minutes with no scrutiny whatsoever. I was glad the US side was
tougher on my return trip.
--JC
--
Josh Crockett
http://www.behindthenet.org/
Monte Castleman
>roadtripped from Virginia to Toronto in April, and crossed the Peace
>Bridge in Buffalo/Ft. Erie at about midnight Sunday night, slightly
>zoned out from 8.5 straight hours on the road. When I pulled up in my
>VA-plated vehicle that hadn't seen an international border since
>Volkswagen brought it into the States, the Canadian border agent had no
>interest whatsoever in any of my "papers" -- no driver's license,
>passport, vehicle registration, insurance or anything. He let me in in
>two minutes with no scrutiny whatsoever. I was glad the US side was
>tougher on my return trip.
This jives with my experience. I've never been asked for an I.D. by
Canadians; coming back the way I've been treated you'd think I was
flying an Iraqi flag from my antenna.
As to tracking multiple crossings, many years ago I crossed the border
four times in one day at four different locations (plus twice more
between Manitoba and the NW Angle, which did not have a customs
formalities at the time). My father and I joked that it would be funny
If they were keeping track of all this on some computer someplace.
--
Monte Castleman, <<Spamfilter in Use>>
Bloomington, MN <<to email, remove the "q" from address>>
Oscar Voss
You've certainly had better luck than I. I make the same crossing over
the Peace Bridge two weeks ago. The border agent, after noting my
Virginia tags and toying with me in other ways, sent me over for a
friendly vehicle search (i.e., no dog sniffing at my car, like there was
for the car next to me at the inspection station).
That's two vehicle searches in three crossings into Canada within the
past year (the other one at the end of I-95 last August). I must be
doing something wrong :-(
--
Oscar Voss - ov...@erols.com - Arlington, Virginia
my Hot Springs and Highways pages: http://users.erols.com/ovoss/
NEW! Expanded and improved Hot Springs Photos pages:
http://users.erols.com/ovoss/hot-springs-photos-page1.htm
Joe Galea
Umm, did he see your NY plate and/or drivers' license? If so, he
probably made an educated guess that you crossed into Ontario at Buffalo
(it's a pretty common shortcut).
Alan Hamilton
camera that can see it when you pull up.
I went to Banff a few weeks ago and got a lot of questioning
(Roosvile, MT port, on US 93) about what I was planning to do, both at
the US exit interview and the Canadian entry interview -- I think I
tripped their "business trip" profile (working in Canada requires a
visa). They asked if my laptop was for work, if I was planning on any
buying or selling while I was in Canada, etc.
I think part of it was because I was crossing alone, and
"single guy on long road trip" = business trip. However, I did have
someone with me, but he's a Russian citizen and doesn't have his green
card yet, so he stayed in Kalispell, MT while I went on to Canada.
Anyway, they finally let me through.
Reentry was a snap (Piegan, MT on US 89) -- they just asked
what I was bringing back, and had me roll down the back window so they
could see if anyone else was in the car. There was no Canadian exit
interview.
--
/
/ * / Alan Hamilton
* * al...@arizonaroads.com
Arizona Roads -- http://www.arizonaroads.com
arga...@my-deja.com
> I went to Banff a few weeks ago and got a lot of questioning
> (Roosvile, MT port, on US 93) about what I was planning to do, both at
> the US exit interview and the Canadian entry interview -- I think I
> tripped their "business trip" profile (working in Canada requires a
> visa). They asked if my laptop was for work, if I was planning on any
> buying or selling while I was in Canada, etc.
I am really surprised to hear you had to have an exit interview at
Roosville. How was it set up?
I crossed into Canada at Roosville in July 2003 and, like you, I was a
single guy on a long road trip with a laptop. However, I went past
Roosville without being asked to stop until I crossed the Canadian
border and the questioning in Canada was very perfunctory--why was I
there, did I have any fruit, alcohol, or tobacco, etc. They had me on
my way within five minutes.
SP Cook
I got searched on my recent road trip, entering by ferry at Yarmouth,
NS. I was a single guy traveling alone, in a not great car with WAY
out of area plates, and told the officer that I did not plan on
returning by the ferry but was going to drive around for a few days.
I think that set his alarms off.
Took about 30 minutes total, NBD.
BTW, what do these guys do all day? The customs in Yarmouth had at
least 20 people working there. It gets on ferry that has maybe 30
cars, and maybe 200 walkers, along with 5 or so 18-wheelers. It only
runs once a day, and the other ferry, from Bar Harbor, is much smaller
with only 3 runs per day (and neither runs during the winter). The
port is tiny as far a freight goes, cannot imagine they get much
cargo, maybe a few private boats. That hardly keeps that many folks
working.
I re-entered at the 1000 islands and it was no search at all. At
these two places, at least, the US officers were in traditional cop
like uniforms, while the Canadians were wearing flack jackets and
black fall-out fatigues.
SP Cook
Chris Bessert
Problems with this:
1. U.S. Citizens do not need a passport to travel to/from Canada.
2. Craig noted the agent asked him about Buffalo "first thing" as he
arrived at the booth -- before any other exchanges took place.
3. Craig did not present the U.S. Immigrations office with a passport.
Later,
Chris
--
Chris Bessert
Bess...@aol.com
http://www.michiganhighways.org
http://www.wisconsinhighways.org
http://www.ontariohighways.org
Mike Tantillo
> > Possibly he looked at the stamps in your passport.
>
> Even if he had a passport (not necessary for US/CA citizens), generally
> the land border crossings don't bother stamping unless asked.
>
> I've been told that there's an international database of border
> crossings keyed to passport number, in a conversation with a US BCIS
> officer at the American border station in the Montreal airport. It
> seems only rational that they would do the same thing with vehicle
> license plates across the US/Canadian border -- neither side wants you
> (a) overstaying your allowed time, or (b) selling your car without
> jumping through all the necessary import hoops.
That makes sense....at land borders, they track cars and not people
for the most part (unless you are non-AMerican and non-Canadian, then
they make you go inside the building to do immigration).
>
> As for why the border officer would show his hand by mentioning what he
> knows, the one commonality between all border officers I've seen in
> every country is a tendency toward the power trip. So he probably said
> it just to screw with you.
I was crossing into Canada recently at St. Bernard de Lacolle
(I-87/A-15), and was stopped on the line at primary inspection for a
while...the guy in the only open lane was grilling everyone. My turn
comes up, and he asks me where I'm from and to see my ID. He asks me
why i'm headed into Canada, to which I reply that I'm going to the
casino in Montreal. How long? "Just for the day". He asks if I have
more then $10000 on me....no. Then he asks me what my occupation
is....and I stalled....do I say engineer, or student.....so I say i'm
a student but am an aspiring engineer. He reaches for the pink pad,
and I know what that means...trip to secondary. But he doesn't tell
me to go for a vehicle search, he tells me to go to immigration.
Meanwhile I was really nervous, since I had didn't have my birth
certificate/passport...I had ID, but no proof of citizenship. I
didn't know that i'd be crossing into Canada on this trip in advance.
So I head up to immigration, and the guy asks me quite a few
questions, about where i'm from, how often I come to Canada, had I
ever been denied admission to Canada, etc. He wanted to see my
student ID when I said I was a student. Then he asks me to tell him
if I had ever been arrested, and that I was under oath at that point
and couldn't lie. I looked him straight in the eye and said no. Then
he told me to have a seat and he just had to run some "verifications".
This is the good part. He comes back to me with my license and asks
me if I had my gun with me. I told him I don't own a gun. Then he
said "but the system says you have a gun permit". I insisted that I
didn't. Then he said "there is a gun permit registered to a Michael
Joseph Tantillo in New York". "Thats not me, my middle name is John."
With that, he smiled and handed me back my driver's license. The
license just says "Michael J Tantillo", but surely he knew what my
middle name was by that point....
On the way back in...30 seconds, thats all. Asked citizenship, to see
ID, how long I was gone, what I had bought...I declared a case of
Molson....he made a joke about triple X and sent me on my way.
Barry L. Camp
as there is physical inspection at the border. Your license plate is
read, and a complete Customes file is tied to it. It is tied to you,
by the vehicle registration file that is also tied to it.
Canada and the US have treaties that allow for information sharing at
nearly every level of law enforcement, and that naturally includes
Customs. So, it is very easy for the border agent in Detroit to know
that you had come across from Buffalo, and when.
(For the paranoid folks on MTR, they also know how much "plastic
money" you spend, as they have access to any bankcard purchases tied
to your name. Think about that the next time you're asked if you have
anything to declare.)
Both governments know how often you cross the border, how long you
stay in each country, and from there can draw up a very general
"profile" on you. For example, myself: I visit Canada several times a
year, usually just going to Windsor for a few hours. Then I come back.
Their profile on me, I'm guessing, is that I'm just what I am: a
harmless tourist who has a nice dinner at Tunner BBQ, drops a little
coin at the casino, and hits the occasional club. That's why it
usually takes me about 30 seconds to clear customs.
Folks that are "unknown" will get a "full service" inspection.
Remember, your license plate is read. That ties everything together.
The last time I changed cars and went to Canada, I got asked for my
identification. Once I showed that, I was cleared immediately.
Another thing that may come into play is where you live. I live in a
border state (Michigan) so it is natural that I may cross into Canada
on occasion, whereas someone from a central or southern state may not,
which could cause some additional questioning. Your mileage may vary.
Don't let it discourage you from travelling. Canada is a great place
to visit, and you'll find yourself wanting to again and again... eh?
:)
Barry L. Camp
Josh Crockett
> Remember, your license plate is read. That ties everything together.
Here's the interesting part: It would appear that the license plate /
vehicle registration DB is tied to the passport-keyed database, and it
doesn't require you to show your passport from the car to make the
initial connection.
Because I figured I was somewhat likely to get sent to secondary,
crossing by myself at an off hour in a car with Southern plates that
had never seen the border. But they had near-zero interest in me --
which tracks with the previous time I crossed the border in the
Montreal airport. I did so three times between June '03 and March '04;
the first two were about average, but the third time I literally got by
with 10 words: "Vacation -- going to see the Canadiens and Hurricanes
tomorrow night."
*cue Twilight Zone theme*
RLDean
>attending a family event. When I arrived at Customs in Detroit, the
>first thing the agent said was "So what's happening in Buffalo?" How
>would he know that's where I came from?
In 1989 while in the Niagara area I ventured into Ontario from the New York
side. The Canadians were very friendly. That was about 6pm. 3 hours later I
returned stateside at Buffalo. The US officials knew what time I had crossed
over wanting to know why I travelled from NJ into Canada then only stayed a few
hours. I was told that the US/Canadian customs operated a joint tracking
system.
Rich Dean
Butler NJ
Pete from Boston
> Lance Lamboy wrote:
>> Possibly he looked at the stamps in your passport.
>
>
> Problems with this:
>
> 1. U.S. Citizens do not need a passport to travel to/from Canada.
>
> 2. Craig noted the agent asked him about Buffalo "first thing" as he
> arrived at the booth -- before any other exchanges took place.
>
> 3. Craig did not present the U.S. Immigrations office with a passport.
Even if he did, it's my experience that neither the US nor Canada stamps.
Pete from Boston
>
> This jives with my experience. I've never been asked for an I.D. by
> Canadians; coming back the way I've been treated you'd think I was
> flying an Iraqi flag from my antenna.
I find US customs at the Canadian border heavy-handed, bullying, and
wildly inconsistent. Canadian customs, on the other hand, I find to be
very firm, but polite and consistent. It's really something to see
forsthand just how little regard many US officials have for what anyone
thinks of our country. Some way to represent us.
Barry L. Camp
"Pete from Boston" <mass...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:4113eedb$0$558$b45e...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
They do if you are in transit from a third country.
In the spring of 2001 I flew from Toronto to London (England of course, not
Ontario) and back, and Canada stamped my US passport.
Barry L. Camp
arga...@my-deja.com
> In the spring of 2001 I flew from Toronto to London (England of course, not
> Ontario) and back, and Canada stamped my US passport.
Actually, I think the difference is that you went through passport
control at an airport, not that you were flying from a third country.
I fly between London and various U.S. airports about twice a year and
I have had my U.S. passport stamped about half the time when
re-entering the States. Policy does seem to vary from airport to
airport--I don't think I've ever been stamped at Houston or D.F.W.,
but I always get stamped at Chicago O'Hare.
Keith
Nah. I'd rather travel through Ohio and Pennsylvania via OH-2 and I-90.
SP Cook
You do not even NEED a passport to fly between the US and Canada.
Just the same as entering by land, a photo ID and a birth certificate
or equilivant.
However when you enter from a third country, you are treated as a
"real" border crosser and need a passport. Same rule applies in
reverse (Canadian entering the US from Europe).
You are also supposed to tell the US border cops that you left Canada.
Say you live in Montana and drive up to Calgary to use the
International airport and fly to, say, Paris. When you get to the US
border, you are supposed to tell the border cops, which will probably
triger you for a harsh inspection.
SP Cook
Barry L. Camp
"Keith" <sirke...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ca5da64.04080...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > Don't let it discourage you from travelling. Canada is a great place
> > to visit, and you'll find yourself wanting to again and again... eh?
> > :)
> >
>
> Nah. I'd rather travel through Ohio and Pennsylvania via OH-2 and I-90.
Considering the way you diss Canada in your posts, they probably wouldn't
let you in.
One example:
arga...@my-deja.com
> You do not even NEED a passport to fly between the US and Canada.
> Just the same as entering by land, a photo ID and a birth certificate
> or equilivant.
>
> However when you enter from a third country, you are treated as a
> "real" border crosser and need a passport. Same rule applies in
> reverse (Canadian entering the US from Europe).
I don't know if the Canadians have different requirements for land
crossings and airport arrivals, but in the U.S. it is perfectly
possible for an American citizen to land at an international airport
and go through immigration with just a driver's license and birth
certificate. I have seen people walk off planes coming from London
and do this successfully. (What I didn't understand is how they got
into Britain in the first place. Official Britain demands passports
which can be stamped, although this requirement has been waived
occasionally for U.K. citizens in situations such as the Passport
Agency fiasco several years ago in which the lead time required to
issue a passport climbed from a few weeks to a few months and people
had to leave and return on university ID cards and the like in order
not to have their travel plans scrapped altogether.)
> You are also supposed to tell the US border cops that you left Canada.
> Say you live in Montana and drive up to Calgary to use the
> International airport and fly to, say, Paris. When you get to the US
> border, you are supposed to tell the border cops, which will probably
> triger you for a harsh inspection.
I really doubt that. The declaration of "other countries visited
prior to U.S. entry" goes on Customs form 6059B at international
airports and I have never been referred to secondary inspection,
despite having visited (and declared my visits to) foreign countries
which don't participate in our visa waiver program.
I honestly don't think an immigration inspector in Montana would be
surprised at a U.S. citizen going north to use the Calgary airport,
since Montana itself is so poorly equipped with airports.
Border officials are law enforcement officers like any other--the key
to dealing with them without hassle is to avoid furnishing probable
cause for more in-depth investigation. This is why, when I am asked
why I am entering a foreign country, I keep the answer as vague as
possible--"tourism." I don't volunteer information as to planned
itinerary, activities, and time and method of re-entry to the U.S. If
I'm pressed for detail, I quote vague destinations like "National
Parks" or major cities in the provinces I want to visit.
When I enter another country, I also don't describe plans to upgrade
or otherwise alter my immigration status (in Britain, for example, a
non-E.U. citizen can be refused entry if he or she admits plans to
seek paid work, or even to apply for a work permit). I have followed
these simple rules in six years of foreign travel and I have never
been diverted to secondary inspection either in the U.S. or any other
country.
The only tense moment I had was in September 2001 when I was
re-entering the U.K. via Eurostar (which has immigration control at
Waterloo station in London), and a careless but rather sharp-tempered
immigration officer ignored a newer "leave to enter" stamp in my
passport, focused on an expired older one, and assumed I had
overstayed the older "leave to enter" and therefore should be refused
entry. However, this requires the concurrence of the Chief
Immigration Officer for the port and the C.I.O. saw the newer stamp
when he went through my passport himself. That closed the matter.
James Robinson
>
> ... in the U.S. it is perfectly possible for an American citizen
> with just a driver's license and birth certificate. I have seen
> people walk off planes coming from London and do this successfully.
It may be possible, but it's not legal. US regulations require the use
of a passport for any US citizens leaving the Americas (North or South
America, plus the Caribbean.)
mindreader
your logic...
Knowing how long you stayed in Canada by looking at your tag at entry
and exit is obvious but tying the vehicle registration to a particular
person and tracking them as individual persons, well maybe that's done
in execptional circumstances but I doubt it that that's immidiately
looked up at entry and added to one's "file." Becuase a. there are 50
states + DC and I doubt they all share online access to vehicle
registration with the Canadians for the purposes of establishing this
"instant file." b. my personal experience is a case in point... I (a
US citizen) have crossed into Canada several times in rented vehicles,
there's no way they're getting my name from Hertz somehow right there
and then. To add to this, neither am I usually asked to even show any
form of ID when crossing the US border or sometimes even at the
Canadian border (in the Buffalo region) and even when the canadians
look at my driver's license, I don't recall them keying it in
anywhere. So much for border "security" between our two nations.
Just a few of questions as to what my nationality is and what is the
purpose and duration of my trip. My entering Canada w/rented car and
no show of ID... I think I would be what you had termed an "unknown" -
but guess what, I get no "full treatment" at the border, on the
contrary, it was very easy (probably too easy), what more that once
the rental car I had had license plates from a far away state
(Virginia) and neither did that raise any red flags at the US or
Canada check post, just a question if I am from VA. C. there could
be several other people in the car with me, obviously they can't know
who they are just on the basis of a car registration and won't be
"tracking" them personally.
As to being worried becuase customs might know how much I spent with a
credit card in Canada solely by knowing my name... well let's say my
name is John Smith, can you guess how many American John Smith's are
visiting Canada right now, I don't know, but I'd bet it's more than
one.
Basically, while what you say is certainly technically feasible I
strongly doubt they're doing the sort of detailed tracking you're
talking about. Rather, it's probably more rudimentary sort of
tracking... recording your license plate number and associating it
with an exit/entry record and that's about it unless they choose to
look at you at more detail and scrutiny but I think that would be the
exception, not the rule.
BTW, software for reading and recording license plate numbers is very
common around the world. Used all the time at parking lots, toll
roads, etc.
blc...@yahoo.com (Barry L. Camp) wrote in message news:<29af2a9e.04080...@posting.google.com>...
Rock
plate.
One time I was driving with my Mom and Grandmother from the US to Canada,
crossing on I-91 at the Vermont/Canada Border. The Canadian customs agent
asked how long do you plan to stay in Canada. I said "A few hours". Next
the agent asked What is the purpse of your trip, and my answer was "We're
dropping off my Grandmother at her boyfriend's house".
They let us right through. :)
The Big Biker
for a week to see family and then drove to Canada from there. I
crossed at the Port Huron, MI/Sarnia, ON border crossing. It was a
Saturday afternoon. I talked to the Canadian Customs agent, he was a
young guy in his late 30's or early 40's. Not too friendly and a
borderline ass but business like. He asked several questions twice, I
guess to try to trip me up. He sent me on my way. I drove from there
to PEI and Nova Scotia but made stops in Ontario and Quebec. I had
alot of camping gear in my jeep and the agent asked if I was going to
work there I said no and mentioned it was vacation gear.
On my return, I took the Cat Ferry from Yarmouth NS to Bar Harbour ME.
In my mind when I got to the US, I made up my mind to go for an older
customs person, one who doesn't care about trying to impress the boss
in order to fast track up the food chain unlike the younger agent like
the one I dealt with when I entered Canada. When I drove off the
ferry, I saw several agents and I went for an older gentleman. He
asked me for ID and I gave him my passport and I answered a few of his
questions. He left for a minute and then came back and said, have a
good evening. He mentioned that he had to scrutinize me a little bit
more since I was traveling by myself which raises some red flags. He
mentioned there were no warrants out or anything. He was friendly.
I might go back to Canada next year depending if I can get the time
off.
cl...@urrea.org (Craig Lake) wrote in message news:<b6c199f9.04080...@posting.google.com>...
John Nelson
Peace Arch in BC. I used to sometimes car pool with my boss to 'save'
trips and avoid residency, (never got close actually).
He shared with me this story about going through the fast-track lane.
He said he went through with one colleage and the first time through
they both had to check in with the border gaurd. I guess every
occupent in the car has to be registered wtih fast trak. He thought
that was weird, but thought it might have been a random check of a 2
person vehicle. The next time through no questions, then one day he
drove wtih a different person, they got stopped and the other guy had
to show his fast trak card.
He talked with the gaurds about why he got stopped, and I forget his
words, but he was told that they take a picture of the occupents of
the car and that gets saved. I think this is for the US side only, as
they only have the cameras that are pointed quite high from the front
(plus 2 in the back). Conversely the entry to canada side has only 1
camera in the back.
"Josh Crockett" <josh.c...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:<ceol5c$d...@odah37.prod.google.com>...