Has NY Route 17 Been Changed To Interstate 86 Yet?
Rich Dean
Several months ago Regional News Network (serving New York, New
Jersey and Connecticut) said that NY Route 17 was being designated as
Interstate 86 west from the NY State Thruway / I-87 connection at
Harriman in Orange County. Has this transition been made yet?
Rich Dean
Butler NJ
NFARS
My name is Chris Sampang, but please, call me Calvin.
CrapNews: http://crapnews.cjb.net
The Yitbox: http://members.aol.com/NFARS
"Is there a God?"
"I don't know."
"Well, someone's out there to get me..."
Patrick Murphy
__________________-
By winter, a change of identity for Route 17
By KIA MORGAN
Staff Writer
By winter, motorists will see I-86 signs on much of the 400-mile road which
makes up Route 17.
But that won't mean clear sailing from end to end of the new interstate.
Portions of Route 17 in West Windsor, Parksville, Hale Eddy to Hancock, and
Elmira pose problems, like driveways jutting into 55 mph traffic. Those
areas will not bear official I-86 signs until they are upgraded to
interstate standards.
That means plenty of road construction along I-86.
"We plan to maintain traffic on the highway as we're building it," said John
Clark, design engineer with the New York State Department of Transportation.
By spring, motorists will see signs of a highway in transition, chock-full
of restrictions, closures and traffic tie-ups.
"This will cause definite problems," said Jacqueline Soltis, a Johnson City
residents who travels almost daily along Route 17. "I think they should do
the construction as soon as possible. I've been traveling this route for
many years. With everybody going in and out of town on the weekends, it (the
construction) will cause accidents." But, Soltis said, "It will bring more
people to the area."
An interstate, which is the highest classification of a highway, doesn't
have the outlets that cause traffic to stop and go. With a set speed, an
interstate provides safer traveling for motorists, and because it connects
to other interstates, it brings travelers through the area.
John Pioch, a DOT civil engineer, is analyzing the road segment by segment.
One of the most troublesome areas is West Windsor, where a number of
driveways, intersections and crossings will have to be eliminated. To do
this:
Five bridges will be built.Several service roads for local traffic will be
established. The road will be realigned and repaved. Three interchanges will
be added at locations not yet specified. The interchanges will control
access to Route 17 and eliminate the crossroads.And, all at-grades crossings
will be removed. 34 homes and four businesses will be demolished. Old
Liberty Road will be widened.
There will be no alternate route to ease traffic flow, said Clark, the
design engineer for the West Windsor project.
Motorists could possibly have smooth-sailing once the construction is
completed. But Francis Stone of West Windsor is still worried.
"Our biggest concern is what we're losing - the businesses along Route 17,"
Stone said.
"With Old Liberty Road widened, the sewer systems will be on the front lawn.
There's not much frontage. The town is looking into a new sewer district,"
he said.
But, Stone conceded, "It's not a bad deal because it (Route 17) is a
dangerous stretch of highway."
However, if residents want to see a safer road, they'll have to wait. Just
about everyone wants to know when Route 17 will convert to I-86 in their
town. The route must be studied first to see what upgrades, adjustments and
additions need to be made to make it an interstate. There are also some
safety issues like speed restrictions and whether the road is flat enough,
said Pioch.
After the study is completed, the costs of the projects will be determined.
And decisions will be needed on whether to exempt certain portions of road
that don't meet standards.
One such area is the emergency exit ramp in Castle Gardens off Route 17 in
Vestal. Pioch said that ramp doesn't meet interstate standards, but the
state wants it to stay because it is used by families when flooding occurs.
Interstate designation usually requires that ramps be removed.
With all that's needed to bring non-standard roads up to standard, the
process takes time.
For instance, the Parksville project won't get under way until 2003. As for
Hale Eddy to Hancock, that project's starting time is still undetermined. No
date has been set for any work in the Binghamton area, either.
The West Windsor project is estimated to cost $28 million. The Hale Eddy to
Hancock project will cost an estimated $30 million. Eighty percent of the
funding comes from the federal government and the rest is supplied by the
state.
A federal transportation bill signed into law by President Clinton includes
provisions for the state to seek interstate status for Route 17.
Redesignating the highway as I-86 is expected to promote economic
development and tourism by increasing the highway's visibility on maps and
improving safety with $400 million to $900 million in eventual upgrades.
Areas in Tioga and Delaware counties are going through changes, too.
In Tioga County, "There are no major deficiencies," said Paul McAnany, the
design engineer.
"We're in pretty good shape. We anticipate that we will have interstate
shields this winter, or future I-86 signs."
The Elmira area, he said, probably won't be designated immediately. Exits 48
to 59 have at-grade intersections and driveways that will need to be
eliminated.
"That will take a number of years and some dollars," McAnany said.
At least residents won't have to worry about tolls. There will be no tolls
on the 400-mile highway, said Pioch.
THE SYSTEM
John Pioch, civil engineer for New York State Department of Transportation,
says in the 1950s, the U.S. highway numbering system was established.
East to west roads across the state are even numbered, while those running
north to south are odd. The farther south you go, the lower the numbers. The
farther north you go, the higher the number. There are two east-to-west
interstates in the area: I-84, which runs from Scranton, Pa., to
Connecticut; and I-88, which runs from Binghamton to Albany. Naming the
Route 17 Interstate 86 is fitting, Pioch said, because it is between
interstates 84 and 88.
Rich Dean <rich...@intercall.net> wrote in message
6qkp6b$lf6$2...@news7.ispnews.com...
Ron Newman
or will NY-17 be moved onto a parallel non-freeway?
--
Ron Newman rne...@thecia.net
http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/
NFARS
continuity. Like old IL 67 paralleling I-57...
Rich Carlson, N9JIG
nf...@aol.com (NFARS) wrote:
> Hopefully, all old NY 17s, as well as NY/PA 430, would become Route 17, for
> continuity. Like old IL 67 paralleling I-57...
>
>
> My name is Chris Sampang, but please, call me Calvin.
>
IL-67 only ran until about 1940, and nowhere near I-57. IL-67 was Marengo
to Crystal Lake, and is now IL-176.
What are you talking about here????
--
******* Rich Carlson, N9JIG *******
Illinois Highways Page
http://www.theramp.net/n9jig/home.html
Chicago Area Radio Monitoring Association (CARMA)
http://www.theramp.net/shabec/carma.htm
NFARS
>to Crystal Lake, and is now IL-176.
>
>What are you talking about here????
>
>
Well, a STATE HIGHWAY parallels an interstate in Illinois...
My name is Chris Sampang, but please, call me Calvin.
CrapNews: http://crapnews.cjb.net
Rich Carlson, N9JIG
N9JIG wrote:
>>IL-67 only ran until about 1940, and nowhere near I-57. IL-67 was Marengo
>>to Crystal Lake, and is now IL-176.
>>
>>What are you talking about here????
>>
>>
>
>Well, a STATE HIGHWAY parallels an interstate in Illinois...
>
>
>My name is Chris Sampang, but please, call me Calvin.
>
Sure, but US highways also parrallel Interstates in many states, and other
state highways parrallel Interstates in many states. Problem is, there is
no IL-67, there hasn't been for almost 60 years.
There are several state routes that follow Interstates here: IL-37 near
part of I-57, IL-251 near I-39, IL-53 along I-55, and (in a stretch) IL-15
along I-64. I still don't understand what is wrong with these, and how
they relate to an upgrade to an interstate project in NY State....
Besides, US and Interstates are also STATE HIGHWAYS.
Ralph Herman
Ron Newman wrote in message ...
>Will this road be multiplexed as NY-17 and I-86 for its entire length,
>or will NY-17 be moved onto a parallel non-freeway?
>
>--
NY 17 between Harriman and the NJ State Line (to keep continuity with NJ
17). NY 417 and NY 394 (the original route before the NY 17 freeway was
built) will probably remain as it is marked, since they are no longer
"primary" NY state routes.
The only major NY 17 duplexes I can think of will be the current short
stretches of I-81 and US 6 that presently duplex with NY 17.
Personally, I will miss NY 17... but NY'ers will still call it "The
Quickway" from Harriman to Binghamton.
Ralph Herman
GeneJYao
>My guess is that NY 17 will cease to exist with the exception of >the current
>NY 17 between Harriman and the NJ State Line (to keep continuity >with NJ
That's quite a sad fate for such a well-respected route. But I'm not surprised
given what New York did to US 15 but cutting it off at NY17 when they built
I-390.
Bill Cohen
ambiguous about how it is routed.
-
Bill in California
Overlooking the San Bernardino Freeway
Christopher Blaney
>My guess is that NY 17 will cease to exist with the exception of the
current
>NY 17 between Harriman and the NJ State Line (to keep continuity with NJ
>17). NY 417 and NY 394 (the original route before the NY 17 freeway was
>built) will probably remain as it is marked, since they are no longer
>"primary" NY state routes.
>
>The only major NY 17 duplexes I can think of will be the current short
>stretches of I-81 and US 6 that presently duplex with NY 17.
>
>Personally, I will miss NY 17... but NY'ers will still call it "The
>Quickway" from Harriman to Binghamton.
When I-86 shields go up, will NY 17 shields immediately go down? What about
those places of NY 17 that don't meet interstate standards? Would they be
discontiguous sections of NY 17? NY 86? NY 86I? "Future I-86"? "Business"
I-86?
Interestingly, in the multiplexed section of NY 17/US 6/NY 17M (between
Exits 124 and 125, then NY 17/US 6 from Exit 125 to Exit 131), US 6 takes
precedence on the signs, because it is a US highway, even though NY 17 is
the more major route. When that section becomes I-86, I'm assuming that US 6
will be second on the pecking order. :-)
Chris Blaney
David J. Greenberger
> Does NY-17 actually dip into PA near Sayre. My Rand McNally is rather
> ambiguous about how it is routed.
Yes. The road is still maintained by NY, though.
--
David J. Greenberger
Department of Computer Science, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
<URL:http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/grenbrgr/>
David J. Greenberger
> Probably the least populous area of the state. You could get away with a
> significant delay in any upgrading here. A few years ago, a major resurfacing
> project was undertaken in this vicinity.
A few years ago? It appears as though the entire Quickway, piece by
piece, is being resurfaced. This has been going on for years and will
presumably continue to take place.
> This one will be tough. There is in important interchange with NY 14,
> followed by several traffic lights with heavy development on either side,
> followed by an important interchange with NY 13. There is no room for an
> alternate ROW that would not be far removed from the present alignment with
> its two major junctions. Probably a depressed roadway with frontage roads
> would be best; some of the intersecting roads will probably be split.
I was thinking of an elevated highway, but either will do. Or pull
the highway south of the development, move the NY 14 interchange, and
extend NY 13 south to the new I-86. (That interchange should be
rebuilt anyway -- the trumpet is backwards.)
David J. Greenberger
> And upstaters will call it route 17. Wow...you guys actually call it the
> Quickway? weird... If I (or the referring map) am not mistaken, the Quickway
> used to be applied to I-88. Any thoughts on that?
I've always called it route 17, and I'm from NYC. The Quickway was
never I-88. In fact, I've seen a map that claims that I-88 (as well
as NY 17 west of Binghamton) is actually the Southern Tier
Expressway.
Ron Newman
> Combined with the Conrail split-up, this I think will show how rail and road
> can be co-utilized to bring vitality back into an area. Remember, most
> Southern Tier towns prospered because of the New York and Lake Erie RR which
> drew traffic between NYC and the Great Lakes away from the Mohawk-Hudson-Erie
> Canal route. I-86 will do the same for automotive traffic, and Norfolk
> Southern will re-do it for rail service.
What plans does Norfolk Southern have for rail service? How many
commuter trips a day are they likely to run, either to NYC or to
western destinations?
I 890Aaron
how about giving it mile marker exit numbers? Maybe other NY I's would follow
no that couln't be possible in NY, What was i thinking?
J.P. and Earl
David J. Greenberger wrote in message ...
>ERL...@prodigy.com (Bill Cohen) writes:
>
>> Does NY-17 actually dip into PA near Sayre. My Rand McNally is rather
>> ambiguous about how it is routed.
>
>Yes. The road is still maintained by NY, though.
And is considered to be a different section of road in Tioga County (the TMM
increments by one going in and one going out as if the road had gone through
a city).
J.P. Wing
nwp...@student.berklee.edu
All of Conrail's trackage in the northeast will be divided between CSX and
Norfolk Southern. CSX will get the current mainline (Amtrak route) between
Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany, and New York. NS will get the southern
tier route which runs via Buffalo, Elmira, Binghamton, and New Jersey. They
plan to upgrade this line, currently second-class, which also crosses the
Portage bridge at Letchworth State Park. I don't know if any passenger
service will be reinstated. There will be connections to the CSX mainline via
its spurs and also short lines like Rochester & Southern.
NP
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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nwp...@student.berklee.edu
"David J. Greenberger" <gren...@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> nwp...@student.berklee.edu writes:
>
> > Probably the least populous area of the state. You could get away with a
> > significant delay in any upgrading here. A few years ago, a major
resurfacing
> > project was undertaken in this vicinity.
>
> A few years ago? It appears as though the entire Quickway, piece by
> piece, is being resurfaced. This has been going on for years and will
> presumably continue to take place.
I can't think of a section that's currently under construction. They may still
be working on the US 6/NY 32 interchange. The segment in question, in Delaware
County and vicinity, was being done in 1994 or 95 and is now complete.
>
> > This one will be tough. There is in important interchange with NY 14,
> > followed by several traffic lights with heavy development on either side,
> > followed by an important interchange with NY 13. There is no room for an
> > alternate ROW that would not be far removed from the present alignment with
> > its two major junctions. Probably a depressed roadway with frontage roads
> > would be best; some of the intersecting roads will probably be split.
>
> I was thinking of an elevated highway, but either will do. Or pull
> the highway south of the development, move the NY 14 interchange, and
> extend NY 13 south to the new I-86. (That interchange should be
> rebuilt anyway -- the trumpet is backwards.)
How is it backwards? You mean the ramp off of NY 17 is the tighter inner loop?
It doesn't seem there's room south of the current Horseheads ROW without
condemning a whole lot of property (granted, much of it seems to be
condemnable as it is). But the NY 13 exit was also recently rebuilt (about 7
years ago); it will be interesting to see whether they decide to rebuild
either or both of these.
NP
NP
> --
> David J. Greenberger
> Department of Computer Science, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
> <URL:http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/grenbrgr/>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
nwp...@student.berklee.edu
> > Quickway? weird... If I (or the referring map) am not mistaken, the Quickway
> > used to be applied to I-88. Any thoughts on that?
>
> I've always called it route 17, and I'm from NYC. The Quickway was
> never I-88. In fact, I've seen a map that claims that I-88 (as well
> as NY 17 west of Binghamton) is actually the Southern Tier
> Expressway.
Well, I'll buy that. After all, it's Delorme that calls I-88 the Quickway
(calls 'em both that, in fact). They were never big on accuracy with this
sort of thing.
NP
nwp...@student.berklee.edu
along. NY has a lot of interstates with exits more frequent than 1 mile apart.
Bob Goudreau
: In article <199808140140...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
: i890...@aol.com (I 890Aaron) wrote:
: > so they are really going to give route 17 an interstate highway designation?,
: > how about giving it mile marker exit numbers? Maybe other NY I's would follow
: > no that couln't be possible in NY, What was i thinking?
: >
: Hey, just because every other state is weird doesn't mean NY should
: follow along. NY has a lot of interstates with exits more frequent
: than 1 mile apart.
And how exactly would this prevent milepost-based exit numbers?
(Hint: it doesn't prevent it in the 40-odd states that number their
exits correctly, even in places that have multiple ramps in the span
of a single mile.) On a newly-designated interstate such as I-86,
NY really has no excuse not to follow MUTCD guidelines, since they'll
have to put up new exit signs in any case.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Goudreau Data General Corporation
goud...@dg-rtp.dg.com 62 Alexander Drive
+1 919 248 6231 Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA
David J. Greenberger
> I can't think of a section that's currently under construction. They may still
> be working on the US 6/NY 32 interchange. The segment in question, in Delaware
> County and vicinity, was being done in 1994 or 95 and is now complete.
No, exit 130A (US 6) was completed a few years ago. I can't say
exactly where, but a good chunk of the road (in Delaware County, I
believe) is being resurfaced, as is a section somewhere between
Jamestown and Corning (I know, that's not very specific). When I
drove through last week, they appeared to be in the process of undoing
the two-way construction setup -- that is, eastbound traffic could
only use the right lane even though nothing was going on in the left
lane, since the left lane had just been used for westbound traffic.
In any case, every summer a section or two of NY 17 is resurfaced.
> How is it backwards? You mean the ramp off of NY 17 is the tighter inner loop?
Yes. NY 13 into Ithaca is used most heavily by traffic coming from
the west on NY 17. But the ramp from EB NY 17 to NY 13 is the inner
loop.
> It doesn't seem there's room south of the current Horseheads ROW without
> condemning a whole lot of property (granted, much of it seems to be
> condemnable as it is). But the NY 13 exit was also recently rebuilt (about 7
> years ago); it will be interesting to see whether they decide to rebuild
> either or both of these.
What was the NY 13 exit like before? Was it a traffic light or a real
interchange?
David J. Greenberger
> of a single mile.) On a newly-designated interstate such as I-86,
> NY really has no excuse not to follow MUTCD guidelines, since they'll
> have to put up new exit signs in any case.
Uh...what's wrong with the old exit signs?
NFARS
>(Hint: it doesn't prevent it in the 40-odd states that number their
>exits correctly, even in places that have multiple ramps in the span
>NY really has no excuse not to follow MUTCD guidelines, since they'll
>have to put up new exit signs in any case.
>
>
I've been seeing new exit signs on NY 17 when I was there on August 3. One CA
button copy one, that's it. So why would they be replaced?
My name is Chris Sampang, but please, call me Calvin.
CrapNews: http://crapnews.cjb.net
Ralph Herman
Bob Goudreau wrote in message <6r1us7$k...@dg-rtp.dg.com>...
>
>And how exactly would this prevent milepost-based exit numbers?
>(Hint: it doesn't prevent it in the 40-odd states that number their
>exits correctly, even in places that have multiple ramps in the span
>of a single mile.) On a newly-designated interstate such as I-86,
>NY really has no excuse not to follow MUTCD guidelines, since they'll
>have to put up new exit signs in any case.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
NY 17 is consecutively exit numbered from the Penn state line to Harriman,
so they won't have to post any new exit numbers. Of course, Caltrans... oh,
you know that already.
I agree that *all* NYS exit numbers should be milepost based, but IIRC
NYSDOT planned to renumber when the nation went metric.
Ralph
Ralph Herman
J.P. and Earl wrote in message ...
>
>Ralph Herman wrote in message <6r2oni$q7i$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>>NY 17 is consecutively exit numbered from the Penn state line to Harriman,
>>so they won't have to post any new exit numbers. Of course, Caltrans...
>oh,
>>you know that already.
>
>
>Wesleyville, Pa. The NY exits start at Exit 4. Exits 1 and 2 are in Pa.,
>there is no Exit 3. Mileposts start at the New York-Pennsylvania Line.
>
True, but I was limiting my observation to NYSDOT maintained section of
I-86.
>>
>>I agree that *all* NYS exit numbers should be milepost based, but IIRC
>>NYSDOT planned to renumber when the nation went metric.
>
>
>According to a recent e-mail from the New York State Thruway Authority,
>there are no plans to renumber the Thruway's exits, because it would be an
>inconvenience to motorists and local businesses. I've never received an
>answer from NYSDOT. The Thruway justifies the consecutive numbering by
>handing out brochures with the milepost numbers on them.
Of course, the NYTA is not bound by NYSDOT "preferences" for exit numbering,
and judging by the botched numbering sequences inherited from the LI State
Park Commission, NYSDOT has it's own exit numbering problems to deal with,
without taking on the NYTA. BTW, in the 1980's I asked NYSDOT Region 10
about LI parkway renumbering, and at that time they (region 10) understood
that NYSDOT headquarters was planning renumbering statewide when metric was
adopted nationally, the logic was they (NYSDOT) wanted to renumber only
once, not twice (since the routes whould be renumbered when the USA went
metric).
NYTA's reasoning is pretty weak, especially if they notified the businesses
in NYS that the numbers would be modified in a few years... businesses have
to change their brouchures for area code changes, don't they?
>
>I think if New York is going to stay consecutively numbered, then the exits
>should be signed much like the older style in Massachusetts, with Exit XX
>Mile XX on the exit tab.
I would tend to think if we ever do go metric, exits renumberings would be
km based on NYSDOT routes.
Ralph
Ralph Herman
nwp...@student.berklee.edu wrote in message
<6qu3nc$2mh$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <6qtks5$kns$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
> "Ralph Herman" <rhe...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> Personally, I will miss NY 17... but NY'ers will still call it "The
>> Quickway" from Harriman to Binghamton.
>
>Quickway? weird... If I (or the referring map) am not mistaken, the
Quickway
>used to be applied to I-88. Any thoughts on that?
>
My family used to rent bungalows in the Catskills and drive NY 17 in the
late 1950's/early 1960's, and the portion of NY 17 from Harriman to
Binghamton was marked by NYSDPW guide signing as The Quickway on many ramp
entrances and pull through signing (long since replaced). Billboards for
the Catskill resorts and gas stations on The Thruway and NY 17 usually said
"Quickway Exit XXX".
I am certain I-88 was never refereed by anyone as The Quickway, certainly
not NYSDOT. The map is incorrect.
Ralph
J.P. and Earl
Ralph Herman wrote in message <6r2oni$q7i$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>NY 17 is consecutively exit numbered from the Penn state line to Harriman,
>so they won't have to post any new exit numbers. Of course, Caltrans...
oh,
>you know that already.
Actually, NY 17 is consecutively numbered at the I-90 interchange near
Wesleyville, Pa. The NY exits start at Exit 4. Exits 1 and 2 are in Pa.,
there is no Exit 3. Mileposts start at the New York-Pennsylvania Line.
>
>I agree that *all* NYS exit numbers should be milepost based, but IIRC
>NYSDOT planned to renumber when the nation went metric.
According to a recent e-mail from the New York State Thruway Authority,
there are no plans to renumber the Thruway's exits, because it would be an
inconvenience to motorists and local businesses. I've never received an
answer from NYSDOT. The Thruway justifies the consecutive numbering by
handing out brochures with the milepost numbers on them.
I think if New York is going to stay consecutively numbered, then the exits
should be signed much like the older style in Massachusetts, with Exit XX
Mile XX on the exit tab.
J.P. Wing
Larry Stone
Earl" <jpn...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>According to a recent e-mail from the New York State Thruway Authority,
>there are no plans to renumber the Thruway's exits, because it would be an
>inconvenience to motorists and local businesses. I've never received an
>answer from NYSDOT. The Thruway justifies the consecutive numbering by
>handing out brochures with the milepost numbers on them.
So how would you renumber the Thruway? It's not easy if you want to both
observe the traiditional west to east and south to north numbering and
give every exit in the ticket section a unique in sequence number.
I think the "Thruway" aspect of the road supercedes the "route" aspect -
in other words, just like it is today, start at one end or the other (both
ends are validly MP 0 in terms of direction) and go up and don't worry
about what's appropriate for the underlying route. I wouldn't mind seeing
a renumbering to get rid of the A's and B's but I really don't care if
it's mileage based or not.
--
-- Larry Stone --- lst...@wwa.com
http://www.wwa.com/~lstone/
Roselle, IL, USA
I work for United Airlines but never, never speak for them
addCode: AD2 aO EIV D1730 FY5 nI
Dan Schwartz
>
> so they are really going to give route 17 an interstate highway designation?,
> how about giving it mile marker exit numbers? Maybe other NY I's would follow
> no that couln't be possible in NY, What was i thinking?
I think many New Yorkers would be confused by milpost-based exits. "How
can this be exit 8, I didn't see any exit 6 or 7?" And there really is
no need to change the exit numbers from what they currently are. A few
small adjustments might be nice though, like changing exit 87A (just
east of Hancock) to exit 88, which currently doesn't exist.
Steve Anderson
Don't New Yorkers ever travel outside of their own state? Once they see
how milepost-based exit signs are easy to use, they will adapt quickly.
It may be a little cumbersome in the NYC metro area, however, where
there may be as many as four exits per mile. Still, this challenge is
not insurmountable.
-- Steve Anderson
The Roads of Metro New York http://members.tripod.com/~ande264/
The Crossings of Metro New York http://members.xoom.com/ande264/
The Roads of Quebec http://members.xoom.com/ande720/
Ralph Herman
Larry Stone wrote in message ...
>
>So how would you renumber the Thruway? It's not easy if you want to both
>observe the traiditional west to east and south to north numbering and
>give every exit in the ticket section a unique in sequence number.
>
>I think the "Thruway" aspect of the road supercedes the "route" aspect -
>in other words, just like it is today, start at one end or the other (both
>ends are validly MP 0 in terms of direction) and go up and don't worry
>about what's appropriate for the underlying route. I wouldn't mind seeing
>a renumbering to get rid of the A's and B's but I really don't care if
>it's mileage based or not.
>
I-87 and I-90 Sections will have their separate numbering sequences, such as
the currently Thruway maintained I-95, I-190, I-84 and I-287. BTW, I-95/New
England Thruway section was renumbered to avoid the duplicate numbering exit
sequences between the Thruway and non-Thruway maintained sections of I-95 in
NYS
BTW, most drivers do not use the complete Thruway system, just sections of
it.
Ralph
John R. Levine
Yes, although we of course return as soon as possible when our
tasks among the heathen are done.
> Once they see how milepost-based exit signs are easy to use, they
> will adapt quickly.
We've seen them, yea on the Garden State Parkway even unto its near
mythical exit zero south of the traffic lights, and we like our
sequential numbers just fine, thanks.
> It may be a little cumbersome in the NYC metro area, however, where
> there may be as many as four exits per mile. Still, this challenge
> is not insurmountable.
Hey, wait a minute, I thought you said this milepost-based stuff was
easier, now you're saying that exits 5, 6, 7E, and 7W will turn into
42, 42A, 42CE, and 42CW? Naah.
--
John R. Levine, IECC, POB 727, Trumansburg NY 14886 +1 607 387 6869
jo...@iecc.com, Village Trustee and Sewer Commissioner, http://iecc.com/johnl,
Member, Provisional board, Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial E-mail
Bob Chessick
David J. Greenberger
> Actually, NY 17 is consecutively numbered at the I-90 interchange near
> Wesleyville, Pa. The NY exits start at Exit 4. Exits 1 and 2 are in Pa.,
> there is no Exit 3. Mileposts start at the New York-Pennsylvania Line.
There is no longer an Exit 1. The highway ends at a full junction
with I-90, and the ramp from WB NY 17 to EB I-90 was labeled Exit 1
(the ramp to WB I-90 had no exit number, and Exit 1 never existed on
EB NY 17). As of mid-June, the Exit 1 tabs on the large guide signs
had been removed, although there was still one remaining reference to
Exit 1 (the gore sign, IIRC).
What was the plan for Exit 3? Or was there no specific plan for the
western end of the road, only a chunk of numbers left free, and it
turned out that there was one extra? In fact, since NY/PA 17 was
largely built east-to-west over a large block of time, how were exit
numbers first assigned to the Quickway, which runs from Exit 75 to
Exit 131? Were 74 exits west of the Quickway planned from the outset?
> I think if New York is going to stay consecutively numbered, then the exits
> should be signed much like the older style in Massachusetts, with Exit XX
> Mile XX on the exit tab.
That would be useful on the long-distance highways. (It wouldn't make
much of a difference on, say, the BQE.)
Larry Stone
<rhe...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Larry Stone wrote in message ...
>>
>>So how would you renumber the Thruway? It's not easy if you want to both
>>observe the traiditional west to east and south to north numbering and
>>give every exit in the ticket section a unique in sequence number.
>Easy...
>
>I-87 and I-90 Sections will have their separate numbering sequences, such as
>the currently Thruway maintained I-95, I-190, I-84 and I-287.
Sorry, not so easy as you violated one of the constraints I listed: "give
every exit in the ticket section a unique in sequence number". The ticket
section, I'm sure you know, is from Woodbury on the I-87 section (Plaza
15) to Buffalo on the I-90 section (Exit 50) (we'll ignore the Exit 55 to
61 ticket section since that section is trivial to deal with).
>BTW, most drivers do not use the complete Thruway system, just sections of
>it.
Of course. Your point? I don't see it as relevant to the need for a
logical, sequnetial numbering system for toll collection purposes.
I'll also venture to say that the average person views the road as "the
Thruway," not as I-87 or I-90, at least within the ticket section. That's
based on my experience having lived in the region. I also find just the
opposite here in the Chicago area where people tend to refer to the
various sections of the Illinois Tollways by their route numbers rather
than name.
Larry Stone
>Don't New Yorkers ever travel outside of their own state?
Not if they can avoid it. I grew up in New Jersey and went to college at
Cornell (Ithaca, NY) and was always amazed by the New Yorkers (city) there
who couldn't even fathom that the quickest route from New York to
Binghamton (on the way to Ithaca) was through New Jersey and Pennsylvania.
Equally amusing was that Greyhound, which had numerous buses each day from
Ithaca to New York (most coming from Rochester and making a very time
consuming stop in Binghamton) had to, at least back then, run one
"franchise protecting" run a week that stayed in New York running via 17
and the Tappan Zee Bridge.
BTW, we need a better term for non-mileage based exit numbering than
"sequential" since mileage based exit numbering is also sequential but the
sequence just skips some numbers. But what that better term is, I haven't
a clue.
David J. Greenberger
> Not if they can avoid it. I grew up in New Jersey and went to college at
> Cornell (Ithaca, NY) and was always amazed by the New Yorkers (city) there
> who couldn't even fathom that the quickest route from New York to
> Binghamton (on the way to Ithaca) was through New Jersey and Pennsylvania.
...or so the claim goes. It doesn't really hold, actually. From my
experience, from my point of departure in Ithaca to my point of
arrival in New York City, the trip was 230 miles via I-81/I-380/I-80
and 235 miles via NY 17. As the lines for the GWB toll from the I-80
(I-95) approach are invariably much longer than the lines at the PIP
approach, the NY 17 route won hands down: under four hours including
stops. And NY 17 is far more scenic (not to mention US 6 and the PIP
for the final stretch), and it avoids the perpetual Scranton
construction.
(This assumes getting from Ithaca to Binghamton via NY 96B/NY 96/NY
17. The NY 79/I-81 route, from my experience, saves a whopping
minute, and the scenery doesn't come close.)
Of course, this is to get to Manhattan. The Pennsylvania route is
probably faster for drivers to Staten Island or Brooklyn.
At least as of the past few years (I graduated in '97), Cornell
students seem to be split roughly equally on the two routes, which is
nice since it balances the traffic load on busy days (before and after
breaks).
> Equally amusing was that Greyhound, which had numerous buses each day from
> Ithaca to New York (most coming from Rochester and making a very time
> consuming stop in Binghamton) had to, at least back then, run one
> "franchise protecting" run a week that stayed in New York running via 17
> and the Tappan Zee Bridge.
That's surprising -- most buses from NY 17 or the Thruway take NJ 17
through New Jersey and cross the Lincoln Tunnel directly into PABT.
That's what ShortLine does on all its runs from Ithaca; Greyhound uses
exclusively the Pennsylvania route. (At least for now, ShortLine is
the preferred bus line by far, but for reasons other than the route
taken.)
NFARS
>for the final stretch), and it avoids the perpetual Scranton
>construction.
>
>
Avoids Scranton, period. But if you're heading to the Pocono 500, and to
Binghamton, you have to take 80 to 380 to 81.
My AAA map says that 17 is the faster route by ONE MILE.
Michael Moroney
>In article <6r49j6$4e8$1...@nnrp02.primenet.com>, "Ralph Herman"
><rhe...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>BTW, most drivers do not use the complete Thruway system, just sections of
>>it.
>Of course. Your point? I don't see it as relevant to the need for a
>logical, sequnetial numbering system for toll collection purposes.
>I'll also venture to say that the average person views the road as "the
>Thruway," not as I-87 or I-90, at least within the ticket section. That's
>based on my experience having lived in the region. I also find just the
>opposite here in the Chicago area where people tend to refer to the
>various sections of the Illinois Tollways by their route numbers rather
>than name.
It's definitely true that the Thruway mainline is considered separate from
"I-90" and "the Northway" by Albany area locals, I, too, was one. People
mostly know the Thruway west of Albany is I-90, and south is I-87 if
asked, but I bet if you asked people how to get from Albany to Buffalo,
you'd probably get several people giving directions like "...get off I-90
at the Thruway exit and take the Thruway west..." And many people if
asked what route number "the Northway" between US 20 and Exit 1 was would
certainly say I-87. (I-87 gets off the Northway at exit 1, south of Exit
1 it has a "secret" NY route number of 910F.) And the little stretch of
Thruway between the off ramp to Exit 24 and the on ramp from Exit 24 is
technically a ramp between I-87 and I-90 in the Interstate picture, but in
real life is the Thruway mainline.
-Mike
David J. Greenberger
> Avoids Scranton, period. But if you're heading to the Pocono 500, and to
> Binghamton, you have to take 80 to 380 to 81.
Well, of course -- and if you're going to the Catskills you have to
take NY 17.
> My AAA map says that 17 is the faster route by ONE MILE.
That's interesting -- what exact route does it take? I use NY 17 to
US 6 to PIP to GWB, certainly not the most obvious from looking at a
map.
NFARS
>US 6 to PIP to GWB, certainly not the most obvious from looking at a
>map.
Hmm...there was a railroad that resulted in the
"PA Dip" to Sayre; that may be the exact corridor that was used.
To get to Staten Island quicker from NY 17, take your route, but then take the
forgotten US 46 west connector (better route to the NJTP or GWB from I-95,
depending on what direction), then NJTP to I-278.
But from NYC, AAA says that NY 17 is faster by one mile. So New Yorkers are
right.
Dr. SPUI
Just a little semantics.
--
Daniel Moraseski
in Orlando, FL
originally from Manalapan, NJ (near US 9 and NJ 33)
"We are Shuster of Borg. Numbering rules are irrelevant."
NFARS wrote in message <199808162014...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
NFARS
>Faster or *shorter*?
>Just a little semantics.
Shorter, and therefore faster. One, PADOT has construction in Scranton...
David J. Greenberger
> To get to Staten Island quicker from NY 17, take your route, but then take the
> forgotten US 46 west connector (better route to the NJTP or GWB from I-95,
> depending on what direction), then NJTP to I-278.
>
> But from NYC, AAA says that NY 17 is faster by one mile. So New Yorkers are
> right.
I'm surprised. I'd probably take I-81 to I-380 to I-80 to I-287 to
the Outerbridge Crossing, or perhaps I-81 to I-380 to I-80 to I-280 to
NJTP to I-278 (Goethals Bridge). It intuitively seems like those
routes are much shorter.
Ralph Herman
Larry Stone wrote in message ...
>>>
>>>So how would you renumber the Thruway? It's not easy if you want to both
>>>observe the traiditional west to east and south to north numbering and
>>>give every exit in the ticket section a unique in sequence number.
>
>>Easy...
>>
>>I-87 and I-90 Sections will have their separate numbering sequences, such
as
>>the currently Thruway maintained I-95, I-190, I-84 and I-287.
>
>Sorry, not so easy as you violated one of the constraints I listed: "give
>every exit in the ticket section a unique in sequence number". The ticket
>section, I'm sure you know, is from Woodbury on the I-87 section (Plaza
>15) to Buffalo on the I-90 section (Exit 50) (we'll ignore the Exit 55 to
>61 ticket section since that section is trivial to deal with).
Maybe I don't get it, but why is it necessary to have "a unique in sequence
number for every exit" in the controlled section... why can't I-87and I-90
have separate numbering? BTW, I'm sure you know the Woodbury Toll barrier is
just north of Exit 16/Harriman. Tickets can be arranged by exit names in
sequence, which would still group the exit numbers by Interstate
designation.
>
>>BTW, most drivers do not use the complete Thruway system, just sections
of
>>it.
>
>Of course. Your point? I don't see it as relevant to the need for a
>logical, sequnetial numbering system for toll collection purposes.
Exit numbering has nothing to do toll collection. I was responding to one
of the Thruway's claims that changing the exit numbering would confuse
drivers, due to multiple numbering sequences on the mainline.
I believe very few (if any) drivers using the Thruway would drive on the
Thruway from Ripley to Yonkers on one trip. (Of course, we deal with three
separate numbering sequences on I-87 from the Triborough Bridge to the
Canadian border... THAT doen't seem to phase the NYTA as far as exit number
driver confusion.)
Exits and tolls for the mainline can still be listed by exit name (i.e., a
ticket from Woodbury would list Newburgh, New Paltz, Kingston, etc.) in
sequences they currently appear on the toll ticket. And I would venture a
guess that many drivers know the exit they or describe need by name, not
exit number.
>I'll also venture to say that the average person views the road as "the
>Thruway," not as I-87 or I-90, at least within the ticket section. That's
>based on my experience having lived in the region. I also find just the
>opposite here in the Chicago area where people tend to refer to the
>various sections of the Illinois Tollways by their route numbers rather
>than name.
>
True, I call it "The Thruway" too! But as you would say, what's the point?
Give them a little credit Larry, NYC area drivers know the Thruway mainline
downstate is I-87, just as every NYC driver knows the LIE is I-495. The
Thruway logo or name is posted adjacent to interstate shields on every guide
sign I've seen replaced on or adjacent to the Thruway during the last two
decades.
But I hope that the Thruway Authority would try to join the rest of the USA
and standardize their exit numbering. Sorry, it still seems strange to me
driving west from Albany that the exit numbers *increase.* I can only
imagine how it feels to other visitors to NYS.
>--
Ralph
David J. Greenberger
> >
> >Faster or *shorter*?
> >Just a little semantics.
>
> Shorter, and therefore faster. One, PADOT has construction in Scranton...
OTOH, the speed limit on most of I-81/I-380/I-80 is 65, while the
speed limit on the Quickway is 55. (Of course, I don't get little
details like speed limits get in my way. I'm familiar enough with NY
17 to know what a safe speed is.)
Larry Stone
<rhe...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Maybe I don't get it, but why is it necessary to have "a unique in sequence
>number for every exit" in the controlled section... why can't I-87and I-90
>have separate numbering?
I guess we just have to disagree. Since I believe the average driver
thinks of it as the Thruway first and a specific route second, I think
it's important to have one set of numbers for the entire mainline of the
Thruway. Certainly, the Exit 24 configuration reinforces this concept
where the "ramp" from I-87 North to I-90 West (and v.v.) is the Thruway
mainline and the "mainlines" of I-87 and I-90 are Thruway ramps.
> BTW, I'm sure you know the Woodbury Toll barrier is
>just north of Exit 16/Harriman.
No I didn't. Did they move it recently? :-)
Since I'm sure they didn't move it, it's actually between the ramps of
Exit 16 and just to the south of the Exit 16 ramp bridge. I referred to it
as "Plaza 15" since its number is 15 but Exit 15 is Suffern (and 15 miles
further south). Tolls charged to/from Woodbury are the tolls for using the
road to/from Exit 15.
For those not aware of how it works there (identical in concept to the NJ
Tunrpike's Exit 16E/17/18E complex and the MA Turnpike's Exit 14/15
complex at Rt. 128), vehicle from Exit 15 and south going to Exit 17 or
beyond get a ticket at Woodbury (and v.v. for southbound traffic).
Vehicles from 15 and south exiting at 16 pay a ramp toll ($.50? for cars)
at Exit 16. Vehicles from 17 and north exiting at 16 pay an exit toll from
the ticket section the same as at any other ticket section exit. Vehicles
entering at 16 going south pay a ramp toll at 16. For logistical reasons
(since the Harriman plaza at Exit 16 used to be just another exit in the
ticket section which used to go to Spring Valley (14)), vehicles entering
at 16 going north pay the same ramp toll as traffic going south, then get
a ticket a mile later from a dedicated lane on the end of the Woodbury
Plaza - the toll then paid exiting the ticket section is discounted by the
amount paid entering at 16.
>Exit numbering has nothing to do toll collection.
Hmmm, I think exit numbering has almost everything to do with toll
collection. Considering how more and more automated toll collection is, it
far more efficient for every toll plaza to have a unique number assigned
to it.
Now this certainly could be independent of the public exit numbering. But
refer back to the top where I say I believe most people think of it as the
Thruway first and the route second.
>But I hope that the Thruway Authority would try to join the rest of the USA
>and standardize their exit numbering. Sorry, it still seems strange to me
>driving west from Albany that the exit numbers *increase.* I can only
>imagine how it feels to other visitors to NYS.
You mean they're supposed to decrease? :-) Oh wait a minute, that's right,
I get to drive everyday on that other road where the mileposts go from
east to west - Illinois's Northwest Tollway (and not to be confused with
the East-West Tollway where I-88 MP 44 jumps to E-W Tollway MP 60 - just
where did those 16 miles go) :-( ).
Larry Stone
<gren...@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>lst...@wwa.com (Larry Stone) writes:
>
>> Not if they can avoid it. I grew up in New Jersey and went to college at
>> Cornell (Ithaca, NY) and was always amazed by the New Yorkers (city) there
>> who couldn't even fathom that the quickest route from New York to
>> Binghamton (on the way to Ithaca) was through New Jersey and Pennsylvania.
>
>...or so the claim goes. It doesn't really hold, actually. From my
>experience, from my point of departure in Ithaca to my point of
>arrival in New York City, the trip was 230 miles via I-81/I-380/I-80
>and 235 miles via NY 17. As the lines for the GWB toll from the I-80
>(I-95) approach are invariably much longer than the lines at the PIP
>approach, the NY 17 route won hands down: under four hours including
>stops. And NY 17 is far more scenic (not to mention US 6 and the PIP
>for the final stretch), and it avoids the perpetual Scranton
>construction.
No disagreement that to some areas of NYC, 17 is the better way to go. Of
course, the buses under discussion were all going to the Port Authority.
But my comment was really on the mindset of those who wouldn't even
consider that an interstate route between two points in New York could be
faster. Whether or not it was shorter was irrelevant; to them, the
interstate route didn't even merit consideration or comparison.
>> Equally amusing was that Greyhound, which had numerous buses each day from
>> Ithaca to New York (most coming from Rochester and making a very time
>> consuming stop in Binghamton) had to, at least back then, run one
>> "franchise protecting" run a week that stayed in New York running via 17
>> and the Tappan Zee Bridge.
>
>That's surprising -- most buses from NY 17 or the Thruway take NJ 17
>through New Jersey and cross the Lincoln Tunnel directly into PABT.
AFAIK, this was to protect the intrastate franchise and had to stay in New
York. Using NJ 17 would be as much a violation as going through
Pennsylvania. Staying in New York had the nasty side effect of them
needing to use city streets in Manhattan.
Christopher Blaney
>OTOH, the speed limit on most of I-81/I-380/I-80 is 65, while the
>speed limit on the Quickway is 55. (Of course, I don't get little
>details like speed limits get in my way. I'm familiar enough with NY
>17 to know what a safe speed is.)
The speed limit on all the I-compatible sections of NY 17 (those that will
immediately be eligible for I-86) should go to 65; those substandard parts
can be 55 or lower.
Since New Jersey has adopted the 65 MPH speed limits three months ago, I
find that people actually drive *slower* in the 65MPH zones than they do in
the 55 MPH zones. On I-80 between Columbia and Parsippany (where the 65 zone
is in effect) the average automobile hovers between 65 and 70; on the 55 MPH
zones like I-287, most cars zoom by at 75. Perhaps it's the promise of
double fines (signs proclaim "FINES DOUBLED" for all traffic violations in
65 MPH zones), perhaps it's the beefed-up patrol, or the more reasonable
speed limit, but people are obeying the higher speed limit and ignoring the
lower limit, to the point of actually driving slower in the higher zones.
Chris Blaney
Ralph Herman
Larry Stone wrote in message ...
><rhe...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>Maybe I don't get it, but why is it necessary to have "a unique in
sequence
>>number for every exit" in the controlled section... why can't I-87and I-90
>>have separate numbering?
>
>I guess we just have to disagree. Since I believe the average driver
>thinks of it as the Thruway first and a specific route second, I think
>it's important to have one set of numbers for the entire mainline of the
>Thruway. Certainly, the Exit 24 configuration reinforces this concept
>where the "ramp" from I-87 North to I-90 West (and v.v.) is the Thruway
>mainline and the "mainlines" of I-87 and I-90 are Thruway ramps.
Your right, we disagree.
>
>> BTW, I'm sure you know the Woodbury Toll barrier is
>>just north of Exit 16/Harriman.
>
>No I didn't. Did they move it recently? :-)
>
>Since I'm sure they didn't move it, it's actually between the ramps of
>Exit 16 and just to the south of the Exit 16 ramp bridge. I referred to it
>as "Plaza 15" since its number is 15 but Exit 15 is Suffern (and 15 miles
>further south). Tolls charged to/from Woodbury are the tolls for using the
>road to/from Exit 15.
>
I stand corrected, sort of. Your right, Larry. I checked the thruway site
at http://www.thruway.state.ny.us/tolls.htm and lo and behold, Woodbury *is*
listed as Exit 15. However, the mainline woodbury toll plaza is physically
just to the north of the Exit 16/Harriman interchange (see
http://www.thruway.state.ny.us/maps/16-20.htm .)Of course, this leads to
more confusion, IMHO... Thruway signing uses Suffern as exit 15
(http://www.thruway.state.ny.us/maps/1-15.htm )... Woodbury is listed on
the ticket as exit 15... I'm so confused... I'm getting a headache.
snip
>>Exit numbering has nothing to do toll collection.
>
>Hmmm, I think exit numbering has almost everything to do with toll
>collection. Considering how more and more automated toll collection is, it
>far more efficient for every toll plaza to have a unique number assigned
>to it.
>
>Now this certainly could be independent of the public exit numbering. But
>refer back to the top where I say I believe most people think of it as the
>Thruway first and the route second.
>
>>But I hope that the Thruway Authority would try to join the rest of the
USA
>>and standardize their exit numbering. Sorry, it still seems strange to me
>>driving west from Albany that the exit numbers *increase.* I can only
>>imagine how it feels to other visitors to NYS.
>
>You mean they're supposed to decrease? :-) Oh wait a minute, that's right,
>I get to drive everyday on that other road where the mileposts go from
>east to west - Illinois's Northwest Tollway (and not to be confused with
>the East-West Tollway where I-88 MP 44 jumps to E-W Tollway MP 60 - just
>where did those 16 miles go) :-( ).
>
>--
Ralph
Ralph Herman
Christopher Blaney wrote in message <35d79...@news.goes.com>...
>David J. Greenberger wrote in message ...
>
>>OTOH, the speed limit on most of I-81/I-380/I-80 is 65, while the
>>speed limit on the Quickway is 55. (Of course, I don't get little
>>details like speed limits get in my way. I'm familiar enough with NY
>>17 to know what a safe speed is.)
>
>
>
>The speed limit on all the I-compatible sections of NY 17 (those that will
>immediately be eligible for I-86) should go to 65; those substandard parts
>can be 55 or lower.
As I'm sure you know, *all* 65 MPH speed limit increases have to be passed
by the NYS legislature and signed by Geoge "I'll take credit for everything
good, blame Cuomo for everything bad" Pataki, not NYSDOT.
Gutless legislators could not (or would not) let NYSDOT engineers decide
which routes should (or shouldn't) get 65 MPH. 55MPH for the LIE in Suffolk
County and I-684 in Westchester... try to find someone going less than 70
MPH in free flowing traffic.
>
>Since New Jersey has adopted the 65 MPH speed limits three months ago, I
>find that people actually drive *slower* in the 65MPH zones than they do in
>the 55 MPH zones. On I-80 between Columbia and Parsippany (where the 65
zone
>is in effect) the average automobile hovers between 65 and 70; on the 55
MPH
>zones like I-287, most cars zoom by at 75. Perhaps it's the promise of
>double fines (signs proclaim "FINES DOUBLED" for all traffic violations in
>65 MPH zones), perhaps it's the beefed-up patrol, or the more reasonable
>speed limit, but people are obeying the higher speed limit and ignoring the
>lower limit, to the point of actually driving slower in the higher zones.
>
I've noticed that since most of the LA freeways were increased to 65 MPH,
traffic is also flowing smoother, just as the California Highway Patrol
predicted.
Ralph
David J. Greenberger
> The speed limit on all the I-compatible sections of NY 17 (those that will
> immediately be eligible for I-86) should go to 65; those substandard parts
> can be 55 or lower.
The 55 speed limit is quite understandable on much of the Quickway,
particularly in Delaware County where there are many curves. The road
probably isn't safe at 65 to a trucker unfamiliar with the territory.
I neither drive a truck nor am unfamiliar, so I take it faster than
the posted limit and know what to look out for and when to slow down.
David J. Greenberger
> faster. Whether or not it was shorter was irrelevant; to them, the
> interstate route didn't even merit consideration or comparison.
Agreed.
> AFAIK, this was to protect the intrastate franchise and had to stay in New
> York. Using NJ 17 would be as much a violation as going through
> Pennsylvania. Staying in New York had the nasty side effect of them
> needing to use city streets in Manhattan.
Naturally. But why did Greyhound need an intrastate franchise?
Anyway, it's nice to know of another Cornellian on this newsgroup -- I
wonder how we both ended up in the same state.
quin...@mailexcite.com
nf...@aol.com (NFARS) wrote:
> > And NY 17 is far more scenic (not to mention US 6 and the PIP
> >for the final stretch), and it avoids the perpetual Scranton
> >construction.
> >
> >
>
> Binghamton, you have to take 80 to 380 to 81.
>
Since when is mileage a measure of time?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Mike McManus
Larry Stone wrote:
> BTW, we need a better term for non-mileage based exit numbering than
> "sequential" since mileage based exit numbering is also sequential but the
> sequence just skips some numbers. But what that better term is, I haven't
> a clue.
How about "consecutive"?
--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Mike McManus _/ home: mmcm...@frontiernet.net _/
_/ Rochester, NY _/ work: mcm...@kodak.com _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
NFARS
>probably isn't safe at 65 to a trucker unfamiliar with the territory.
>I neither drive a truck nor am unfamiliar, so I take it faster than
>the posted limit and know what to look out for and when to slow down.
Well, the curves ARE I-standard, remember that.
Maybe do what CA did--55 truck limit, 65 cars.
I wonder, BTW, why NY speed limit signs are "State Speed Limit 55" when the
road is 55 MPH. "Villiage Speed Limit" signs existed in Cooperstown, where,
BTW, Frank Curcio Realty signs were everywhere.
Really.
DukeNC1998
>I'm surprised. I'd probably take I-81 to I-380 to I-80 to I-287 to
>the Outerbridge Crossing, or perhaps I-81 to I-380 to I-80 to I-280 to
>NJTP to I-278 (Goethals Bridge). It intuitively seems like those
>routes are much shorter.
Wouldn't I-81 south to I-380 east, to I-80 east, to PA 33 south, to I-78 east,
to I-287 south, to the Outerbridge crossing be faster?
-Mike
Long Island, NY
NFARS
> Wouldn't I-81 south to I-380 east, to I-80 east, to PA 33 south, to I-78
>east,
>to I-287 south, to the Outerbridge crossing be faster?
You can take I-86 (NY 17) E to I-87 S to I-287 S to NY 440 N.
David J. Greenberger
> Wouldn't I-81 south to I-380 east, to I-80 east, to PA 33 south, to I-78 east,
> to I-287 south, to the Outerbridge crossing be faster?
Perhaps. I didn't even know PA 33 existed until the recent discussion
here began.
David J. Greenberger
> You can take I-86 (NY 17) E to I-87 S to I-287 S to NY 440 N.
...if you have loads of time on your hands. Much as I'm a big fan of
NY 17, it can't serve all purposes.
ir...@whec.com
Other people have written:
>Maybe I don't get it, but why is it necessary to have "a unique in sequence
>number for every exit" in the controlled section... why can't I-87and I-90
>have separate numbering?
They do, *outside the Thruway system*, but that portion of I-87
between New York City and Albany, and that portion of I-90 between
Albany and Pennsylvania are the same road. They happen to have been
given different numbers after the fact. Since the Thruway is more like
a private road than a state road, it functions as a unit. It's tough
enough to explain how to get to downtown Albany from Syracuse ("get
off the Thruway and stay on 90") without having to deal with "I meant
the other exit 24."
I can hear you all tuning up, but the Niagara, Berkshire, New England,
Garden State, and 84/287 sections are separate sections administered
by the same agency, so their exits (and mileposts) are numbered
cohesively, but independently of the mainline. Should the Berkshire
section need to have separate exit numbering systems for the I-90 part
and the unnumbered part? Is B-1 on the unnumbered part or on I-90?
Should B-1 follow the I-90 numbering scheme or the Berkshire scheme?
(And don't say that the whole Berkshire section should be renumbered
from Albany - we all know which came first :-) )
>... I checked the thruway site
>at http://www.thruway.state.ny.us/tolls.htm and lo and behold, Woodbury *is*
>listed as Exit 15. However, the mainline woodbury toll plaza is physically
>just to the north of the Exit 16/Harriman interchange (see
>http://www.thruway.state.ny.us/maps/16-20.htm .)Of course, this leads to
>more confusion, IMHO... Thruway signing uses Suffern as exit 15
>(http://www.thruway.state.ny.us/maps/1-15.htm )... Woodbury is listed on
>the ticket as exit 15... I'm so confused... I'm getting a headache.
You have to differentiate between traffic passing through the Woodbury
barrier from Suffern and points south and traffic passing through the
Woodbury barrier from Harriman interchange. Since all of Harriman's
entry traffic has just paid 50 cents, and the northbound mainline
hasn't, they need different toll schedules. Harriman's northbound
entry traffic gets a 16 ticket *at Woodbury*, and the northbound
mainline traffic gets a 15 ticket *at Woodbury*. Note that there's no
toll from 16 to 17 -- you paid it before you got the ticket.
But how about this? "A Permit customer entering the Thruway at the
Harriman Fixed Toll Barrier and proceeding north is identified as a
Permit customer at the Woodbury Barrier. The calculation of the Permit
Toll Schedule from the Woodbury Barrier to all exits north, allows
credit for the $0.50 fixed toll at the Harriman Fixed Toll Barrier.
Because the trip from Harriman to the Newburgh Interchange is less
than 30 miles, the Permit customer will receive a $0.50 cash refund
when exiting at the Newburgh Interchange. The Permit customer, when
travelling south on the Thruway and exiting at Harriman will be
charged the appropriate Permit toll. When entering at the Newburgh
Interchange and exiting at Harriman (the trip is less than 30 miles)
the Permit customer will not be charged a toll. The Permit is not
valid for the Permit customer entering at Harriman and travelling
south." -- From "Provisions Governing Issuance and Use of Permit"
(You don't get the cash any more - it goes on your E-ZPass account)
> ... where I say I believe most people think of it as the
>Thruway first and the route second.
I've lived in both 87 and 90 parts of the state, and the vast
majority of people know the Thruway and where it goes, but have no
idea that it changes numbers.
Some other Thruway-type flame-bait, apropos of nothing:
If this state assembly guy gets the tolls lifted between Canandaigua
and Victor, do we permit holders get paid 15 cents to use the Thruway?
How come the most staunch advocates of removing the tolls entirely are
those who use the Thruway twice a year to go to Grandma's, not those
who use it every day at 4 AM all winter long?
Does the guy at Clifton Springs *know* that his gas is cheaper than
off-Thruway?
Bonus question: Should the new mag-stripe ticket (printed on demand)
show the actual permit toll for permit holders or the regular class 1
toll like before?
Double-bonus for truly die-hard fans: "State Fair" and "Duanesburg"
maybe I can buy, but "Washington Ave."?
Sam Iraci ir...@whec.com
I do not spend too much time on the Thruway.
Christopher Blaney
>The 55 speed limit is quite understandable on much of the Quickway,
>particularly in Delaware County where there are many curves. The road
>probably isn't safe at 65 to a trucker unfamiliar with the territory.
>I neither drive a truck nor am unfamiliar, so I take it faster than
>the posted limit and know what to look out for and when to slow down.
Then make the speed limit 55 for trucks & buses, 65 for passenger vehicles,
or 60 MPH for both types.
Chris Blaney
Bob Goudreau
: Hey, wait a minute, I thought you said this milepost-based stuff was
: easier, now you're saying that exits 5, 6, 7E, and 7W will turn into
: 42, 42A, 42CE, and 42CW? Naah.
Nobody is saying anything like that. If there were indeed four
exit ramps near milepost 42, they would be labeled (west to east)
as Exits 42A, 42B, 42C, and 42D.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Goudreau Data General Corporation
goud...@dg-rtp.dg.com 62 Alexander Drive
+1 919 248 6231 Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA
Bob Goudreau
: John R. Levine (jo...@iecc.com) wrote:
: : Hey, wait a minute, I thought you said this milepost-based stuff was
: : easier, now you're saying that exits 5, 6, 7E, and 7W will turn into
: : 42, 42A, 42CE, and 42CW? Naah.
: Nobody is saying anything like that. If there were indeed four
: exit ramps near milepost 42, they would be labeled (west to east)
: as Exits 42A, 42B, 42C, and 42D.
Actually, I meant "south to north", since the road in the above
example presumably runs that way, not east/west.
Bob Goudreau
: goud...@dg-rtp.dg.com (Bob Goudreau) writes:
:
: > of a single mile.) On a newly-designated interstate such as I-86,
: > NY really has no excuse not to follow MUTCD guidelines, since they'll
: > have to put up new exit signs in any case.
:
: Uh...what's wrong with the old exit signs?
Nothing, apparently. I had inferred from one of the earlier posts
in this thread that NY 17 was currently without numbered exits of
any kind, but I have since been informed that this is not the case.
Daniel Salomon
: I wonder, BTW, why NY speed limit signs are "State Speed Limit 55" when the
: road is 55 MPH. "Villiage Speed Limit" signs existed in Cooperstown, where,
: BTW, Frank Curcio Realty signs were everywhere.
The State Speed Limit is 55, meaning that it is the default. 65 mph
sections are specific exceptions to the State Speed Limit.
-Dan
NFARS
>sections are specific exceptions to the State Speed Limit.
What if NY decides to change the SSL to 65?
Christopher Blaney
>Nothing, apparently. I had inferred from one of the earlier posts
>in this thread that NY 17 was currently without numbered exits of
>any kind, but I have since been informed that this is not the case.
I do note there are a number of gaps in the exit numbering, however. No Exit
3, no Exit 50, and several other blank spaces. Were these poor counting or
planned interchanges that didn't go anywhere?
Also, NY 17 with sequential exit numbers up to 131 sets a record in the
Northeast. Connecticut comes second with 100 numbers on I-95/I-395. I-95 in
Maine has about 63, I think. I-81 in PA has 68. (This doesn't count the
"Junctions" or "A" exit additions, of which there are a few.) I-95 in
Florida goes to 130 but I think there are quite a few gaps in the numbering.
(RMcN shows a gap in Jacksonville from 111 to 116, across a bridge.) I-75 in
GA goes to 142 but GA is scheduled to change to milepost numbering.
Any consecutive exits that go above 142?
Chris Blaney
Dr. SPUI
was removed, but all the others are definitely there). There are also some
new A and C exits in some areas.
--
Daniel Moraseski
in Orlando, FL
originally from Manalapan, NJ (near US 9 and NJ 33)
"We are Shuster of Borg. Numbering rules are irrelevant."
Christopher Blaney wrote in message <35d88...@news.goes.com>...
David J. Greenberger
> What if NY decides to change the SSL to 65?
Then the speed limit on *every* road in the state, unless otherwise
marked or contained in an area with a different speed limit, goes up
to 55. Including two-lane highways. Including narrow twisty country
lanes.
Even if every four-lane highway gets a speed limit of 65, the state
speed limit will *not* go up to 65.
NFARS
>Even if every four-lane highway gets a speed limit of 65, the state
>speed limit will *not* go up to 65.
So the SSL is the default speed limit?
Why don't other states have special signs with the SSL on top of the number?
David J. Greenberger
> So the SSL is the default speed limit?
Yes.
Here's the way speed limits work in New York. There are two types of
speed limit (and I'm positive I'm using incorrect terminology, but
we'll have to live since I can't think of the correct terms), linear
and area. An area speed limit is binding on all roads within the area
in question -- this area can be a city, town, village, state, or just
about any other municipality, and if one municipality is contained in
another, the smaller one wins. (Otherwise the state speed limit would
apply everywhere.) A linear speed limit is a speed limit on a
particular section of road that is an exception to the area speed
limit.
For instance, the state speed limit is 55. Many sections of highway
have linear speed limits of 65, and some roads have lower linear speed
limits.
For instance, the city speed limit in Ithaca is 30. Parts of NY 13
have linear speed limits of 40 and 55.
For instance, the city speed limit in New York City is also 30. Most
of the expressways and parkways have linear speed limits of 45 or 50,
and some roads may have lower speed limits. (This is a somewhat poor
example, as I've never seen "City Speed Limit" signs in NYC.)
If the state speed limit were to be raised, then every road outside a
(sub-state) municipality with its own area speed limit would suddenly
have a speed limit of 65, unless posted with its own linear speed
limit.
Ralph Herman
David J. Greenberger wrote in message ...
snip..
>For instance, the city speed limit in New York City is also 30. Most
>of the expressways and parkways have linear speed limits of 45 or 50,
>and some roads may have lower speed limits. (This is a somewhat poor
>example, as I've never seen "City Speed Limit" signs in NYC.)
>
One reason is that NYS traffic regulations do not apply to NYC
The NYS legislature long ago gave the NYC government extensive "home rule"
and one area that NYC has home rule is vehicle and traffic regulations (but
not what would be handled by the DMV, such as driver licensing and vehicle
registration).
Therefore, pretty much all traffic regulations in NYC are by local law, and
if you ever had the privilege of getting a moving violation ticket in NYC by
New York's Finest, you will note the violation is a NYC statue... in the
rest of NYS, the violation will be a NYS statue.
There are some conflicts between some NYC and NYS traffic laws (i.e, what
constitutes a "commercial vehicle), but within NYC, NYC traffic laws take
precedence.
This information, BTW, is from my uncle, a retired Lieutenant with the NYPD
Highway Patrol Unit #2 in Brooklyn.
Therefore, NYSDOT speed limit classifications do not exist within NYC.
Ralph
Christopher Blaney
>I-95 has no gaps; the exits are just very close together (maybe one (112?)
>was removed, but all the others are definitely there). There are also some
>new A and C exits in some areas.
I suppose that's like I-75 in Atlanta, where RMcN shows a gap from 93 to 100
in the space of about three to four miles; in dense urban areas, where there
are more exits than miles, a consecutive system makes more sense, in order
to avoid an excess of letter suffixes.
Chris Blaney
J.P. and Earl
NFARS wrote in message <199808170416...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>I wonder, BTW, why NY speed limit signs are "State Speed Limit 55" when the
>road is 55 MPH. "Villiage Speed Limit" signs existed in Cooperstown,
where,
>BTW, Frank Curcio Realty signs were everywhere.
Best way to think of it, in my opinion is this:
"State Speed Limit 55 (unless otherwise posted)". This means the speed
limit is 55 by default unless you see something else.
"Village Speed Limit 30 (unless otherwise posted)". This means the speed
limit within that particular village's boundaries is 30 unless otherwise
posted. Usually on NYSDOT maintained roads, when coming into a village, the
*first* speed limit will be "Village Speed Limit XX", and then the rest of
the speed limit signs will be the usual "Speed Limit XX" until you leave the
village and see "END 30 MPH SPEED" or "STATE SPEED LIMIT 55".
J.P. Wing
Robert V. Droz
Dr. SPUI wrote:
> I-95 has no gaps; the exits are just very close together (maybe one (112?)
> was removed, but all the others are definitely there).
The new Florida map shows Exit 112 as Margaret St. The state map shows exit
lists for the interstates and the turnpike. I-375 is even there, with both
exits.
> There are also some
> new A and C exits in some areas.
On I-4, there is an exit 24, and exit 24E, but no A-D
I have a couple of the new maps, if you want one, drop me a line.
--
_______________________________________________________________________
Happy Motoring! _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Robert V. Droz (chec...@gte.net) _____________________________________
U.S. Highways : From US 1 to (US 830) and beyond
http://home1.gte.net/checksix/UShwy.htm
pki...@brunnet.net
"Christopher Blaney" <chan...@goes.com> wrote:
> Northeast. Connecticut comes second with 100 numbers on I-95/I-395. I-95 in
> Maine has about 63, I think.
ME I-95 dosn't count. There are no exits 10 to 14, because they are on the
I-495 section of the Maine Turnpike. Don't ask me why they do this. -- J.P.
Kirby pki...@brunnet.net Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada
http://members.xoom.com/jpkirby
Jens Puchert
>
> In article <6qtks5$kns$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
> "Ralph Herman" <rhe...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Personally, I will miss NY 17... but NY'ers will still call it "The
> > Quickway" from Harriman to Binghamton.
>
> And upstaters will call it route 17. Wow...you guys actually call it the
> Quickway? weird... If I (or the referring map) am not mistaken, the Quickway
> used to be applied to I-88. Any thoughts on that?
The Eastern leg of NY 17 is known as the Quickway. Many road signs
(advertising signs) between Binghamton and Harriman reflect this.
--
## Jens Puchert - MOD4WIN development team - mailto:je...@mod4win.com ##
## JSInc. -==- P.O. Box 19474 -=- Austin, TX 78760-9474 -=- USA ##
## for info/news/updates/orders visit us at http://www.mod4win.com/ ##
Jens Puchert
>
> so they are really going to give route 17 an interstate highway designation?,
> how about giving it mile marker exit numbers? Maybe other NY I's would follow
> no that couln't be possible in NY, What was i thinking?
What's wrong with the current numbering system? I'd say redesignate
I-90 between Thruway exits 24 and B1 before changing exit numbers.
Jens Puchert
>
> And how exactly would this prevent milepost-based exit numbers?
> (Hint: it doesn't prevent it in the 40-odd states that number their
> exits correctly, even in places that have multiple ramps in the span
> of a single mile.) On a newly-designated interstate such as I-86,
> NY really has no excuse not to follow MUTCD guidelines, since they'll
> have to put up new exit signs in any case.
No they don't. Current NY 17 exit numbers are perfectly adequate as
they are.
John Lansford
>
>Best way to think of it, in my opinion is this:
>
>"State Speed Limit 55 (unless otherwise posted)". This means the speed
>limit is 55 by default unless you see something else.
NC has one of these state speed limits as well in non-posted areas. If
you don't see a speed limit sign, you can assume the limit is 55mph.
Some cities have a city wide limit as well, usually 35mph or 45mph.
John Lansford, PE
The unofficial I-26 Construction Webpage:
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/
FranCurcio
<gren...@uiuc.edu> writes:
>duken...@aol.com (DukeNC1998) writes:
>
>> Wouldn't I-81 south to I-380 east, to I-80 east, to PA 33 south, to I-78
>east,
>> to I-287 south, to the Outerbridge crossing be faster?
>
>Perhaps. I didn't even know PA 33 existed until the recent discussion
>here began.
>--
No, this is not currently faster and is not shorter. In a another thread I
reported on the pending construction of the missing link connecting PA 33 and
I-78. I-80 to I-287 to the Outerbridge is the better route fron Scranton to
Staten Island until the missing link is completed in 2001. Then the
faster/shorter route becomes a toss-up.
Regards,
Frank
Bob Goudreau
: nf...@aol.com (NFARS) writes:
: > What if NY decides to change the SSL to 65?
: Then the speed limit on *every* road in the state, unless otherwise
: marked or contained in an area with a different speed limit, goes up
: to 55. Including two-lane highways. Including narrow twisty country
: lanes.
: Even if every four-lane highway gets a speed limit of 65, the state
: speed limit will *not* go up to 65.
Was the NY State Speed Limit 55 mph even before the imposition of
the NMSL in 1974?
Daniel Salomon
: (sub-state) municipality with its own area speed limit would suddenly
: limit.
But I thought that every square inch of NYS is within a town or city,
meaning there is always a town or city speed limit.
Are there any county speed limits? Are there any other types of
municipalities besides cities, towns, villages, and counties in New York?
(No, I don't count the boroughs of NYC as municipalities.)
-Dan
David J. Greenberger
> But I thought that every square inch of NYS is within a town or city,
> meaning there is always a town or city speed limit.
Not necessarily -- not every town or city imposes its own speed
limit. If it does not, the state speed limit carries over.
> Are there any county speed limits? Are there any other types of
> municipalities besides cities, towns, villages, and counties in New York?
> (No, I don't count the boroughs of NYC as municipalities.)
I have seen an occasional "Area Speed Limit" sign, but I'm not sure
what sort of area that refers to. And as for the boroughs, with one
tiny exception the borough lines coincide with county lines, so you
are counting the boroughs after all.
Stephen A. Hill
>Uh...what's wrong with the old exit signs?
The only thing wrong with them is that the exit numbering doesn't
start at the NY/PA state line. It starts at the PA 17/I-90 junction.
In other words, NY continues the PA exit numbering.
Steve Hill
David J. Greenberger
> The only thing wrong with them is that the exit numbering doesn't
> start at the NY/PA state line. It starts at the PA 17/I-90 junction.
> In other words, NY continues the PA exit numbering.
True, but seeing as there is a whopping *one* exit in Pennsylvania,
our best option, IMHO, is to live with the incongruity.
The Palisades Interstate Parkway also continues the exit numbering
from New Jersey into New York. On a highway its length it's not worth
resetting the numbers at the state line, especially since most drivers
start at the GWB and continue back into New York.
Alan Hamilton
is, rather than just assuming you know. There are three speeds that
are legislated in ARS 28-701:
1. Fifteen miles per hour approaching a school crossing.
2. Twenty-five miles per hour in a business or residential district.
3. Sixty-five miles per hour in other locations.
With the exception of a handful of residential areas, these are all
overridden by posted speeds. 35-45 is typical on urban or suburban
main streets, 50-65 in rural areas, and 75 on rural interstates. 25
MPH speed traps are still common in small towns, but they are
explicitly posted, along with "REDUCED SPEED AHEAD" warnings.
School crossings are only effective when there are signs as such
posted, which invariably say "SPEED LIMIT 15", so that rule is moot as
well.
Maybe it's just me, but "END TOWN SPEED LIMIT" is a lot less useful
than "SPEED LIMIT 55". Don't tell me what the speed limit isn't; tell
me what it is.
State highway speed limits are determined by ADOT, while other roads
are determined by the county or town.
--
/
/ * / Alan Hamilton
* * al...@primenet.com
NFARS
>from New Jersey into New York. On a highway its length it's not worth
>resetting the numbers at the state line, especially since most drivers
>start at the GWB and continue back into New York.
Why don't we have a list of "interstate" exit numbers?
NY/PA 17 (I-86, with E2 as first actual interchange)
NJ/NY/I-495 (original plan, explaining E13 as first exit after the Queens
Midtown Tunnel, which is the first exit in NYC sans the Dyer Street Expy./3rd
Avenue exits.)
PIP
DukeNC1998
>Why don't we have a list of "interstate" exit numbers?
>
>NY/PA 17 (I-86, with E2 as first actual interchange)
>NJ/NY/I-495 (original plan, explaining E13 as first exit after the Queens
>Midtown Tunnel, which is the first exit in NYC sans the Dyer Street Expy./3rd
>Avenue exits.)
>PIP
The Hutchinson River Parkway/Merritt Parkway (NY/CT).
The Beltway around Cincy (I-275), OH, KY, IN
The Kansas City Beltway (I-435) KS, MO
-Mike
Long Island, NY
DukeNC1998
>Maybe it's just me, but "END TOWN SPEED LIMIT" is a lot less useful
>than "SPEED LIMIT 55". Don't tell me what the speed limit isn't; tell
>me what it is.
No, its not just you. I hate driving on the east end of Long ISland. The
default Speed limit on both NY 25 and NY 27 is 55 MPH. However, whenever you
enter a town, the limit drops to 40, or sometimes 35 or 30 MPH. At the other
end of town, the sign says "End 35 MPH Limit" You have to know that means the
limit is 55, but not many people know. Its very annoying to get stuck behind
people doing 30 in a 55 because they don't understand what the legal limit is.
-Mike
Long Island, NY
Dr. SPUI
it was just an illusion
I-4:
24E is for 417
24C/D is for World Dr (Disney) which opened about a month ago
24A/B arent there yet, one will be for 429
--
Daniel Moraseski
in Orlando, FL
originally from Manalapan, NJ (near US 9 and NJ 33)
"We are Shuster of Borg. Numbering rules are irrelevant."
Robert V. Droz wrote in message <6rautg$5e5$1...@news-1.news.gte.net>...
David J. Greenberger
> NY/PA 17 (I-86, with E2 as first actual interchange)
...and omitting E3, with E4 as the first exit in NY. It's as though
Pennsylvania didn't believe in odd numbers or something.
Do we also count the dip into Sayre, PA? If so, we should also count
I-684, even though it has no exits in CT (since perhaps the numbers
should reset).
> NJ/NY/I-495 (original plan, explaining E13 as first exit after the Queens
> Midtown Tunnel, which is the first exit in NYC sans the Dyer Street Expy./3rd
> Avenue exits.)
Interesting. Makes sense.
> PIP
E1-E5 in NJ, E6-E18 in NY. Note that south of E1 the road splits, the
right fork leading to the GWB and the left fork signed for I-95 south
and all NJ routes (really, that's what it says). The right fork then
has an unnumbered exit to Hudson Terrace ("LAST EXIT BEFORE TOLL").
Christopher Blaney
> Arizona, thankfully, actually tells you what the speed limit
>is, rather than just assuming you know. There are three speeds that
>are legislated in ARS 28-701:
>
>1. Fifteen miles per hour approaching a school crossing.
>2. Twenty-five miles per hour in a business or residential district.
>3. Sixty-five miles per hour in other locations.
NJ has signs posted at the state boundaries that inform drivers of the State
Speed Limits:
50 RURAL
25 URBAN
OR AS POSTED
99% of the time, the speed limit is posted (SPEED LIMIT 50 even in the most
rural and backwoods areas). Many four-lane divided arterials have been
posted 55 and now rural interstates and freeways are signed 65 (with mucho
signage proclaiming doubled fines in those zones).
NJDOT controls the designation of speed limits on state highways; the county
on county roads, and the towns on local streets. NJDOT will usually follow a
town's recommendation for lower speed limits. (US 46 and US 206 through
Mount Olive Township were reduced from 50 to 45 MPH within the last few
years, and NJ 57 has more 35 and 40 MPH zones now than 50 MPH zones.)
If you ask me, NJ should revise the State Speed Limits:
2-lane roads:
55 RURAL
25 URBAN
OR A.P.
55 should only be used on high-quality 2-lane roads in very rural areas with
little chance of development within the next several years, such as NJ 70
through the Pinelands and US 206 in northern Sussex.
Multi-lane divided roads:
60 RURAL
55 SUBURBAN
30 URBAN
OR A.P.
NJ 15 should go to 60 MPH whole length (north of I-80).
Freeways & Tollways:
70 RURAL (with TRIPLE FINES)
65 SUBURBAN (with DOUBLE FINES)
60 URBAN (with DOUBLE FINES)
OR A.P.
I-80 from Columbia to Netcong would be 70, from Netcong to Parsippany would
be 65, to the GWB, 60.
I-78 would be 70 from Delaware River to I-287, 65 to NJ 24, 60 to Holland
Tunnel.
I-287 would be 65 north of I-80, 60 between I-80 and Exit 33 (just south of
Morristown), then 65 to Turnpike.
NJ Turnpike would be 70 from Interchange 1 to 6, 65 from 6 to 11, 60 to the
GWB.
GSP would be 60 from Cape May to Stone Harbor, 70 from S.H. to Toms River,
65 from Toms River to NJ 440, 60 to I-80, 65 north of I-80.
Atlantic City Expressway would be, what else, 70 from Turnersville to GSP.
Chris Blaney
Neil Kelly
<199808182042...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>>Midtown Tunnel, which is the first exit in NYC sans the Dyer Street
Expy./3rd
>>Avenue exits.)
>
>The Hutchinson River Parkway/Merritt Parkway (NY/CT).
It extends up the Wilbur Cross as well.
Also, I-684 NY/CT. ;-)
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-neil
http://travel.to/ct-highways
Neil Kelly
>I have seen an occasional "Area Speed Limit" sign, but I'm not sure
>what sort of area that refers to. And as for the boroughs, with one
>tiny exception the borough lines coincide with county lines, so you
>are counting the boroughs after all.
Area speed limits, from what I've seen do not coincide with any political
borders. Instead, they seem more related to population density - the area
speed limit near Putnam Lake, for instance, doesn't begin until the roads
get twistier and closer together.
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-neil
http://travel.to/ct-highways