UK: M6/ M74/ M11
Graham Mackay
"Michael Anazapela" wrote;
1. What's the plan for the M74? Is it eventually going to be signposted M6
and will it ever be motorway standard between the Scottish Border and the
start of the M6?
The husband of one of my cousins was a consulting engineer on the M6
Glasgow-Carlisle project in the mid 90's, and according to him, all the
signs
saying M6 were manufactured in the expectation that the J44-Gretna section
would be built.As of July '99,which was the last time I spoke to him about
it,
the signs were sitting in a building near Lockerbie.Will they ever get used?
On a separate but related issue, does anyone think we should have mileage
or a kilometrage based junction numbering rather than the sequential system
we currently use.All the 4A's and 21A's etc.could be got rid of if we put in
a new numbering system, as they have been doing in Georgia over the past
couple of years.
As for new motorway projects, it looks as if the government has given in to
the environmentalists.The last major motorway project to be finished in
England was the M25, and that was in 1986.There are many projects from
the original 1950's era plans which have yet to be built, so I suspect
useful
roads like the M11 extension from Cambridge to the Humber Bridge will
never be built.
Graham.
Nicholas Allan
news:9bieop$3lg$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Michael Anazapela" wrote;
>
> 1. What's the plan for the M74? Is it eventually going to be signposted
M6
> and will it ever be motorway standard between the Scottish Border and the
> start of the M6?
>
>
> The husband of one of my cousins was a consulting engineer on the M6
> Glasgow-Carlisle project in the mid 90's, and according to him, all the
> signs
> saying M6 were manufactured in the expectation that the J44-Gretna section
> would be built.As of July '99,which was the last time I spoke to him about
> it,
> the signs were sitting in a building near Lockerbie.Will they ever get
used?
If you travel up the M74/A74(M), you'll see those blue construction project
signposts that say M6 rather than M74 or A74(M). I assume that they are
waiting for the M6 - A74(M) stretch to be completed. I notice that it is on
nearly all of the new road atlaii. It'll certainly make travel a lot more
consistent to maintain a coherent number.
> On a separate but related issue, does anyone think we should have mileage
> or a kilometrage based junction numbering rather than the sequential
system
> we currently use.All the 4A's and 21A's etc.could be got rid of if we put
in
> a new numbering system, as they have been doing in Georgia over the past
> couple of years.
I prefer sequential numbering because I don't imagine that many new
junctions are built after a motorway's construction. Furthermore, on
stretches of road where there is more than one interchange per
mile/kilometre, we'd have to suffix the signs with a letter anyway! In
places like Glasgow on the M8 things could get confusing.
I would like to see junction numbers used on more A-roads as well, roads
like the A50 from the M6 to the M1, the A34, the A720 Edinburgh Bypass, and
so on. They're so useful that it seems silly not to use them on other roads
and restrict them to motorways.
> As for new motorway projects, it looks as if the government has given in
to
> the environmentalists.The last major motorway project to be finished in
> England was the M25, and that was in 1986.There are many projects from
> the original 1950's era plans which have yet to be built, so I suspect
> useful
> roads like the M11 extension from Cambridge to the Humber Bridge will
> never be built.
I would say that some major motorways have been built. I'm thinking of the
M65 from the M6 to Blackburn and the M60 eastern portion of the Manchester
Orbital. And the M74 was hardly not a major project, and that was only
completed a couple of years ago in Scotland.
Instead of building more new roads given the current climate, I think we
should try and upgrade more A-roads to motorway, such as getting the A1(M)
complete from just north of Newcastle to the M1 extension interchange. I
also think of perhaps we should upgrade the A34 and A14 to provide a more
coherent network, and the A40/A449 to motorway to make the M50 a complete
route from the M5 to Wales.
Nicholas Allan
David D Miller
news:dkeD6.235$NS5....@news2.cableinet.net...
You don't need a complete end-to-end motorway for consistent end-to-end
motorway numbering, as long as you know where the junctions will be on the
incomplete sections. For the six miles between M6 J44 and Gretna, I'd not
expect any new junctions.
As Nicholas is aware, other motorways in central Scotland already have
junction numbering continue across missing sections. The M8 and M80 each
have sections of normal dual-carriageway still to be upgraded to motorway.
In both cases, the different dual-carriageway and motorway parts were built
as totally separate schemes, decades apart - and completion of the remaining
motorway should be expected with a similar timescale. Both the M9 and M90
also had junction numbering continue across gaps for some years in the
mid-1970's.
Any renumbering of the M74 will not be instant. The last time the M74
junctions were renumbered, in the 1980's, maps and road signs showed both
old and new numbers together for a very long time. Apart from the signs for
the upgraded motorway section between Carlisle and Gretna, I'd expect the
Lockerbie store contains just a few dozen big signs explaining the numbering
change, and several thousand metal plates of different sizes, with just a
new route number or junction number - suitable for rivetting or glueing over
the existing signs when the time comes.
David Miller
Edinburgh, Scotland
Michael Anazapela
David D Miller <tran...@lddl.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9bvp05$m25$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com...
Would they leave J44 as the last exit in England? I'd expect a junction on
the English side to access small places just over the border.
>
> As Nicholas is aware, other motorways in central Scotland already have
> junction numbering continue across missing sections. The M8 and M80 each
> have sections of normal dual-carriageway still to be upgraded to motorway.
> In both cases, the different dual-carriageway and motorway parts were
built
> as totally separate schemes, decades apart - and completion of the
remaining
> motorway should be expected with a similar timescale. Both the M9 and M90
> also had junction numbering continue across gaps for some years in the
> mid-1970's.
Will they ever upgrade the A80 stretch to full motorway? If they did, where
on earth would they put it? And as for the A8, hasen't that been "proposed"
for the last 30 or so years?
>
> Any renumbering of the M74 will not be instant. The last time the M74
> junctions were renumbered, in the 1980's, maps and road signs showed both
> old and new numbers together for a very long time. Apart from the signs
for
> the upgraded motorway section between Carlisle and Gretna, I'd expect the
> Lockerbie store contains just a few dozen big signs explaining the
numbering
> change, and several thousand metal plates of different sizes, with just a
> new route number or junction number - suitable for rivetting or glueing
over
> the existing signs when the time comes.
Any idea why the M74 isn't the M74 all the way to the border even though the
numbering dosen't change?
>
> David Miller
> Edinburgh, Scotland
>
>
Nicholas Allan
"Michael Anazapela" <mic...@anazapela.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9c52o9$26d$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
<Most serious snippage>
>
> Would they leave J44 as the last exit in England? I'd expect a junction on
> the English side to access small places just over the border.
There isn't anything inbetweeen J22 on the A74(M) and J44 on the M6 that
can't be easily reached from existing junctions. I would imagine that it
would be built straight through.
<More snippification>
>
> Will they ever upgrade the A80 stretch to full motorway? If they did,
where
> on earth would they put it? And as for the A8, hasen't that been
"proposed"
> for the last 30 or so years?
The original plan was to build a totally new motorway up the wetlands near
the Forth and Clyde Canal, but this has been scuppered because it would
cause serious environmental and archaelogical damage. Instead, current
ideas centre on upgrading the current A80 instead.
The A8 upgrade is still floating around, with the new Eurocentral
interchange being built for a full six-lane motorway to fit through, with
the current four land road only taking up one of the two arches. However,
an interesting bit of jiggery-pokery will be required in the junction
numbering, with only one junction number being left spare between the
current ends of the M8, and at least two interchanges being required (A725
and Eurocentral) J6a and 7 possibly?
> > Any renumbering of the M74 will not be instant. The last time the M74
> > junctions were renumbered, in the 1980's, maps and road signs showed
both
> > old and new numbers together for a very long time. Apart from the signs
> for
> > the upgraded motorway section between Carlisle and Gretna, I'd expect
the
> > Lockerbie store contains just a few dozen big signs explaining the
> numbering
> > change, and several thousand metal plates of different sizes, with just
a
> > new route number or junction number - suitable for rivetting or glueing
> over
> > the existing signs when the time comes.
>
> Any idea why the M74 isn't the M74 all the way to the border even though
the
> numbering dosen't change?
Okay, what follows is very much conjecture on my part, and nothing else,
based purely on pooling a few ideas together in my head.
The motorway is M74 from the A702 interchange (J13) to the northern terminus
in Glasgow (J1, sometimes, depending on what map you read :) ). This
stretch of road was all brand new, totally avoiding the old A74 and in no
way an upgrade of the existing road, instead being a totally new road. The
A74(M) applies from the A702 (J13) to the border (J22). This stretch of
road mostly follows the old A74, either using the old road and upgrading it,
or sticking very close to the old road. In general, Mx roads are new roads
and Ax(M) roads are upgrades of existing roads. Of course, someone's bound
to prove me wrong!
Nicholas Allan
Michael Anazapela
>
> "Michael Anazapela" <mic...@anazapela.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:9c52o9$26d$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> <Most serious snippage>
> >
> > Would they leave J44 as the last exit in England? I'd expect a junction
on
> > the English side to access small places just over the border.
>
> There isn't anything inbetweeen J22 on the A74(M) and J44 on the M6 that
> can't be easily reached from existing junctions. I would imagine that it
> would be built straight through.
http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?X=330000&Y=560000&gride=&gridn=&width
=700&height=400&client=M6&db=&scale=200000&multimap.x=476&multimap.y=141
Well it's proposed anyway :o)
I see what you mean about nothing being there, but is there anything
physical in the way stopping them building the motorway alongside the A74?
Stupid question time - would it be an extension of the M6 or the A74(M)?
Am I right in thinking the A74(M) has a section in England?
>
> <More snippification>
> >
> > Will they ever upgrade the A80 stretch to full motorway? If they did,
> where
> > on earth would they put it? And as for the A8, hasen't that been
> "proposed"
> > for the last 30 or so years?
>
> The original plan was to build a totally new motorway up the wetlands near
> the Forth and Clyde Canal, but this has been scuppered because it would
> cause serious environmental and archaelogical damage. Instead, current
> ideas centre on upgrading the current A80 instead.
I'd love to see how they would do it, but while we're on about that route,
do you think there's any chance of them upgrading part or all of the A9 to
motorway?
It should really be all motorway from Glasgow to at least Dundee - from some
document I saw it looks like eventually it will be all graded between Dundee
and Perth with the building of the new interchanges. Problem is, if they
build a motorway, they'll need a bypass of Dundee at the same time and
there's no way Aberdonians would let Dundee get a bypass without Aberdeen
getting one.
Let me get this straight - if they build that new Northern Extension to the
M74, the beginning at the M8 will be Junction 1. This would mean they would
have to hold off renumbering until the extension was complete otherwise
they'd be renumbering the M74 and then doing it again when it became (if
ever) the M6.
The only piece of the old A74 that I know exists (apart from in Glasgow) is
the dual carrigeway that serves the Cairn Lodge (can't remeber it's proper
name) services. Is there any other dual carriageway bits elsewhere?
In my opinion when they finished the last bit of the A74 (the bit with all
the M6 signs), they should have signed it the M6 and had the Gretna missing
part called the A74 (M6). Junctions 50 and above are going to take a long
time getting used to :o)
Looking at the larger map - Eventually they should sign it M6 from the start
of the M1 in London, following it to the current M6 junction, taking the
newly built Birmingham Relief Road, then at around Junction 7 of the
existing M74 build a new motorway to around Junction 5 of the M8 (still
retaining the M6) to Junction 2, turning off towards the Forth Bridge. Take
the
Forth Bridge M8000 (for the new motorway that they should build to the forth
bridge), across the Bridge (now M6, if non motorway people don't like it
they can get the bus or the train), upto Perth, turning towards Dundee along
the new motorway built, bypassing Dundee, eventually ending somewhere north
of Dundee.
That would make it much much better in terms of travelling the country, and
say on all distance things have London and Edinburgh marked in opposite
directions. The routing from Motherwell to Perth isn't much longer than
going from Motherwell to Perth via the M73, M80 , M/A9.
>
> Nicholas Allan
>
>
David D Miller
>
> "Michael Anazapela" <mic...@anazapela.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:9c52o9$26d$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> the
> > numbering dosen't change?
>
> Okay, what follows is very much conjecture on my part, and nothing else,
> based purely on pooling a few ideas together in my head.
>
> The motorway is M74 from the A702 interchange (J13) to the northern
terminus
> in Glasgow (J1, sometimes, depending on what map you read :) ). This
> stretch of road was all brand new, totally avoiding the old A74 and in no
> way an upgrade of the existing road, instead being a totally new road.
The
> A74(M) applies from the A702 (J13) to the border (J22). This stretch of
> road mostly follows the old A74, either using the old road and upgrading
it,
> or sticking very close to the old road.
The original M74 was a completely new alignment in the late 1960s, from the
present J4 (M73 interchange) to just north of Blackwood. South of that
point, the A74 had already been upgraded to dual-carriageway in the early
1960s - partly on new alignment and with some grade separated junctions.
From the mid-1980s, when the M74 was first extended southwards past
Blackwood, the original dual-carriageway has been of no consequence. The
only constraints were the best possible motorway (at minimum cost, as usual)
and leaving intact a suitable alternate route for local traffic and
motorway-prohibited traffic. If the new motorway was built over the old
dual-carriageway, then a new single-carriageway alternate had to be built as
well; if not, the dual-carriageway could be left intact (or reduced to
single carriageway to cut future maintenance).
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=279500&Y=643500&A=N&Z=3
(Each square on the map is 1km.)
The original 1960s motorway ended at a grade separated intersection, roughly
where the two carriageways of the motorway come together at the top left of
this 1:50000 extract. The kink in the minor road just east of the motorway
is a relic of the ramp curving up to the southbound carriageway of the
dual-carriageway. The B-class road from the top left of the extract was the
replacement A74 when the first motorway was first built on top of the
original.
There was also an intersection east of Lairs, with the southbound exit from
the dual-carriageway still visible on the map - the B-class road south past
Lairs dates from the mid-80s motorway extension. The line of the old
dual-carriageway can still be traced on the map around Blackwood, as it is
still used by the southbound exit ramp at J9 and continues south as the
B7078 - note the double-width cuts and fills.
J10-12, past Lesmahagow, is mainly on new alignment, since the original
dual-carriageway by-pass for the town had been leapfrogged by new
development and was being used by considerable local traffic. (Michael is
right: This is the only surviving stretch of the old dual-carriageway
between Blackwood and Gretna.)
J12-J13 was completely new alignment, partly because it was much shorter,
partly because the original route was in a pretty poor state (subsidence,
IIRC), and also because no reasonable alternative route existed over the
moor. The old dual-carriageway was singled, and NCN74, a long-distance
cycle route opened last year, took over the abandoned carriageway.
J13 - J15 (Beatock) is about half upgraded dual-carriageway (with a new
alternative route), and half new alignment (with the old road as
alternative). The road runs through a twisting, narrow valley, and shares
it with the WCML railway, so there is extensive cut and fill, and some of
the steepest grades found on any Scottish motorways. The alternative route
is a worthwhile northbound detour if you want to 'slow down' - after several
hours of fast motorway cruising - before taking a break at Abingdon Services
or turning onto the A702 at J13.
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=301450&Y=613035&A=Y&Z=3
The firebreak indicated by the arrow is the old northbound carriageway.
J15-J21 is predominantly new alignment, but for much of the route is
directly alongside the old dual-carriageway. At several locations, new
overbridges were built with four main spans, two narrow ones over the
existing dual-carriageway, and two wide ones over the new motorway. The
dual-carriageway was then singled, with the carriageway closer to the
motorway covered with an earth berm and shrubbery to block headlight glare
between the adjacent roads.
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=311280&Y=587705&A=Y&Z=3
This extract is interesting because it shows how the A74/M74 route has been
in use for many centuries - with five distinct alignments visible on the map
within half a mile of each other. The oldest is the Roman Road, probably
dating from about AD142 or 143. The second route is the old coach road
(arrowed), probably built late 18th or early 19th century, upgraded early
20th century for motor traffic - it joins the present route at both top and
bottom of this extract, but the bridge over the railway just south of
Dinwoodie Green is missing. The third route is the railway line itself,
opened in mid-19th century by the Caledonian Railway, and now part of the
WCML between London and Glasgow - not strictly a 'road', but an alternative
that virtually killed off long-distance road transport, and halted most road
building for over half a century. The fourth route, from the mid-20th
century, is the old dual-carriageway, now the B7076, staying west of the
railway line. The fifth, of course, is the new A74(M), from the tail end of
last century.
J21-J22 was already a on new alignment for the dual-carriageway, so it was
upgraded on much the same line, with some minor changes to the junctions
around Gretna and Gretna Green. This was shown on the 1992 Landranger sheet
as M74, but completed on the 1997 sheet as A74(M). The original A74, the
present B7076, was never dual-carriageway between Kirkpatrick-Fleming and
Gretna.
> In general, Mx roads are new roads
> and Ax(M) roads are upgrades of existing roads. Of course, someone's
bound
> to prove me wrong!
I'm not going to disagree. I've not yet found a rule on this that I can
completely trust. There are always exceptions to rules, and UK road
numbering seems to have more exceptions than it should.
Given the almost arbitrary split between M74 and A74(M), I find myself now
wondering if the M6 renumbering will initially only cover A74(M) as far as
J13. Might the motorway NW of Abingdon remain as M74, with the M6 number
reserved for an altogether different route north in the future?
David Miller
Edinburgh, Scotland
Michael Anazapela
What I don't understand is, why is it the B7078? Why don't they just call it
the A74 once they name the A74(M)/M74 the M6?
Is there any remaining old dual carriageway north of Blackwood?
I remember when the Cairn Lodge services opened, the old A74 signs were
still up but they've been removed now.
Is there any exceptions to that rule? I can't think of any off the top of my
head.
>
> Given the almost arbitrary split between M74 and A74(M), I find myself now
> wondering if the M6 renumbering will initially only cover A74(M) as far as
> J13. Might the motorway NW of Abingdon remain as M74, with the M6 number
> reserved for an altogether different route north in the future?
After J13, it goes from 3 lanes to 2 dosen't it? What I don't understand is
that traffic dosen't considerably drop off after J13 so if the route is
signed M6 - it's going to be of substandard quality. I like your idea about
only signing the M6 to Abingdon - but could they break the rules and use
(M6) M74 for route numbers somehow denoting that the route is M74 but also a
continuation of the M6, to stop people getting confused.
In my opinion, they should number it M6 now, with at the very least closing
all the at grade intersections in the uncompleted strech (not sure if there
is roads that you can only access via the A74). That way they could bend the
rules and call it a motorway, signing it upto Junction 4 (would it be J62 of
the M6?), taking the current M73 and ending at the A80 - leaving the M74
between J4 and the new extenion to the M8. This would work because the M73
is signed Carlisle at the A80 junction, so it would make sense.
I also believe that the M6 should be signed to London, to at least the M25
junction. The current M1 could be signed as M6 (M1) - with Northbound in
England signed with a destination of Scotland and in Scotland signed with
England - to ensure clarity to where the road goes. Or possibly, even though
this is impossible and is unpractical, signing the M6 to M73 Junction 2
awaiting the A8 to be built to motorway standards and a upgrading of the M73
Junction to put the M6 towards Edinburgh.
>
> David Miller
> Edinburgh, Scotland
>
>
David D Miller
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David D Miller <tran...@lddl.freeserve.co.uk>
<snipped>
> > The original M74 was a completely new alignment in the late 1960s, from
> the
> > present J4 (M73 interchange) to just north of Blackwood. South of that
> > point, the A74 had already been upgraded to dual-carriageway in the
early
> > 1960s - partly on new alignment and with some grade separated junctions.
> >
> > From the mid-1980s, when the M74 was first extended southwards past
> > Blackwood, the original dual-carriageway has been of no consequence.
The
> > only constraints were the best possible motorway (at minimum cost, as
> usual)
> > and leaving intact a suitable alternate route for local traffic and
> > motorway-prohibited traffic. If the new motorway was built over the old
> > dual-carriageway, then a new single-carriageway alternate had to be
built
> as
> > well; if not, the dual-carriageway could be left intact (or reduced to
> single carriageway to cut future maintenance).
>
> What I don't understand is, why is it the B7078? Why don't they just call
it
> the A74 once they name the A74(M)/M74 the M6?
The road numbering is based on the importance of the route in a regional
context, not how good the actual road is (was). A road which exactly
parallels a new motorway is likely only to carry local traffic (and lost
tourists) - and hence very unlikely to be anything more than a B road.
(Since the M9 was opened, some of the old A9 is now completely unclassified,
and one stretch has been closed altogether.)
<snip>
> Is there any remaining old dual carriageway north of Blackwood?
The northern limit of the continuous high-speed dual-carriageway was the
Blackwood by-pass.
Prior to the motorway, the only other dual-carriageway on the A74 north of
Blackwood was about a mile of 40mph semi-urban dual-carriageway between
Hamilton and Bothwell Bridge, and two similar short stretches west of Mount
Vernon in Glasgow. All three sections are still dual-carriageway.
<snip>
> > > In general, Mx roads are new roads
> > > and Ax(M) roads are upgrades of existing roads. Of course, someone's
> > bound
> > > to prove me wrong!
> >
> > I'm not going to disagree. I've not yet found a rule on this that I can
> > completely trust. There are always exceptions to rules, and UK road
> > numbering seems to have more exceptions than it should.
>
> Is there any exceptions to that rule? I can't think of any off the top of
my
> head.
A quick search reveals:
A823(M) (the only other example in Scotland at the moment?), was the start
of a brand new east-west motorway in Fife. (Only one short stretch was ever
completed, as part of the Forth Road Bridge works.)
A1(M), north of Scotch Corner, was a completely new route bypassing Durham
and Darlington, and very similar in nature to the early M74 bypassing
Hamilton and Larkhall. The pre-motorway A1 route is still mostly drivable
from about a mile north of Scotch Corner right through to Gateshead, mostly
as A167.
The A3(M) and A3 run parallel at Havant, just as the A329(M) and A329 do at
Reading. And I've been told that the M8 west of Renfrew was shown on on
some maps as A8(M), running parallel to the A8.
Examples the other way include: M80 (older section) and M876 (to J2), both
of which were A-class dual-carriageway until the mid-1970s; M3 (Winchester
by-pass and south) was formerly A33 dual-carriageway; and M58
(M6-Skelmersdale) was formerly A506 dual-carriageway.
David Miller
Edinburgh, Scotland
Michael Anazapela
Where does the A9 terminate? The only bit of the A9 that I can think
directly of is the bit to the Bridge of Allan - it's signposted at the start
of the M9 at Dunblane. Any idea why the M9 didn't get extended to Perth?
>
> <snip>
> > Is there any remaining old dual carriageway north of Blackwood?
>
> The northern limit of the continuous high-speed dual-carriageway was the
> Blackwood by-pass.
>
> Prior to the motorway, the only other dual-carriageway on the A74 north of
> Blackwood was about a mile of 40mph semi-urban dual-carriageway between
> Hamilton and Bothwell Bridge, and two similar short stretches west of
Mount
> Vernon in Glasgow. All three sections are still dual-carriageway.
When did they extend the M74 west of the M73 junction? I can only imagine
what the A74 was like with streches of single carriageway - must have been
murder getting to all points south of Glasgow. I remeber what it was like on
the old A94 to Dundee with single carriageway bits, and that was a nightmare
in itself.
>
> <snip>
> > > > In general, Mx roads are new roads
> > > > and Ax(M) roads are upgrades of existing roads. Of course,
someone's
> > > bound
> > > > to prove me wrong!
> > >
> > > I'm not going to disagree. I've not yet found a rule on this that I
can
> > > completely trust. There are always exceptions to rules, and UK road
> > > numbering seems to have more exceptions than it should.
> >
> > Is there any exceptions to that rule? I can't think of any off the top
of
> my
> > head.
>
> A quick search reveals:
>
> A823(M) (the only other example in Scotland at the moment?), was the start
> of a brand new east-west motorway in Fife. (Only one short stretch was
ever
> completed, as part of the Forth Road Bridge works.)
Have you got any more information on this proposed route? I don't see it
making much sense because the M9 exists the other side of the Forth and
pretty much goes to the same place. I read somewhere on the internet about a
proposal to dual the Kincardine Bridge, but the only time I've crossed there
(on a busyish Friday afternoon) there wasn't much traffic to be seen.
>
> A1(M), north of Scotch Corner, was a completely new route bypassing Durham
> and Darlington, and very similar in nature to the early M74 bypassing
> Hamilton and Larkhall. The pre-motorway A1 route is still mostly drivable
> from about a mile north of Scotch Corner right through to Gateshead,
mostly
> as A167.
>
> The A3(M) and A3 run parallel at Havant, just as the A329(M) and A329 do
at
> Reading. And I've been told that the M8 west of Renfrew was shown on on
> some maps as A8(M), running parallel to the A8.
I still marvel at the way the M8 was built through Glasgow. I wonder if my
proposal for a Eastern Beltway running from the M74 Junction 6 or near there
to where the older section of the M80 starts would ever get off the ground.
Wasen't the A329(M) part of this Outer Beltway that was planned for London?
>
> Examples the other way include: M80 (older section) and M876 (to J2),
both
> of which were A-class dual-carriageway until the mid-1970s; M3 (Winchester
> by-pass and south) was formerly A33 dual-carriageway; and M58
> (M6-Skelmersdale) was formerly A506 dual-carriageway.
The M58 must rank as the most boring motorway ever, and I assume it's main
role is to take cars from Liverpool to the north. I doubt the poeple in
Skelmersdale could afford petrol, a friend of mine called that place New
Town Hell.
Is the M876's main role to connect to the Kincardine Bridge?
I've got an map that's a few years old showing Manchester, and a A6(M) is
proposed even though it dosen't run along the route of the old A8.
>
>
> David Miller
> Edinburgh, Scotland
>
>
>
Graham Mackay
'Michael Anazapela" wrote;
I still marvel at the way the M8 was built through Glasgow. I wonder if my
proposal for a Eastern Beltway running from the M74 Junction 6 or near there
to where the older section of the M80 starts would ever get off the ground.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
It is an absolutely astonishing achievement to have built a motorway right
through
the very heart of the city. Does anyone know anything about the history of
the
'bridge to nowhere' at Charing Cross,the reason for the layout at the
junction for
Kirkintilloch and if there were ever any plans to extend the M8 through to
Greenock?
Regarding any plans for a Glaswegian ring road,I suspect the chances are
slim to none
for the usual environmental and financial reasons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
The M58 must rank as the most boring motorway ever, and I assume it's main
role is to take cars from Liverpool to the north. I doubt the people in
Skelmersdale could afford petrol, a friend of mine called that place New
Town Hell.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is definitely up there as the emptiest, if not the most boring, motorway
in Britain.
One Friday evening(8pm) in July '99,when I was driving to a wedding in
Southport,
I saw just 2 vehicles on the section between the M6 and the turn for
Southport.The urge
to really put my foot down was very,very hard to resist but I really just
was not in the
mood to go for it.It was IIRC a very smooth surface.Probably,the lack of
traffic!!!
My vote for GB's most boring motorway is the M26 between Sevenoaks and
Wrotham
in Kent.It is,to all intents and purposes, a glorified slip
road.Conversely,my vote for GB's
best bit of motorway goes to the M6 over the fells in Cumbria.Definitely one
of my top 3
drives in the world.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
I've got an map that's a few years old showing Manchester, and a A6(M) is
proposed ....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
Any details?
Regards,
Graham.
David D Miller
>
> David D Miller <tran...@lddl.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:9cq8g1$47u$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com...
> > context, not how good the actual road is (was). A road which exactly
> > parallels a new motorway is likely only to carry local traffic (and lost
> > tourists) - and hence very unlikely to be anything more than a B road.
> > (Since the M9 was opened, some of the old A9 is now completely
> unclassified,
> > and one stretch has been closed altogether.)
>
> Where does the A9 terminate? The only bit of the A9 that I can think
> directly of is the bit to the Bridge of Allan - it's signposted at the
start
> of the M9 at Dunblane.
The A9 currently runs between there and M9 J5, going through both Stirling
and Falkirk.
East of J5, the old A9 is A803 to Linlithgow, B9080 to Kirkliston, and
unclassified to Boathouse Bridge. Boathouse Bridge to Turnhouse is
completely closed, while the last stretch between Turnhouse and Maybury is
unclassified.
On Friday evening, I cycled out to look at the original terminus of the M9
west of Kirkliston. Just east of the present B9080 bridge, the motorway
ended with a sharp turn northwards to a T-junction on the old A9. The
present bridge embankment is slightly further north than the original road,
and some faint traces of the original junction remain visible in the dense
undergrowth at the foot of the embankment. (There's nothing to see without
leaving your car, so don't bother looking from the M9!)
> Any idea why the M9 didn't get extended to Perth?
The section immediately beyond Dunblane had already been upgraded to
dual-carriageway some years before the motorway was completed right through
to J11. A further upgrade to full motorway simply couldn't be justified at
the time, especially with a proportion of traffic from the SE turning onto
the A84 toward the West Highlands. (Similarly, the original section of
dual-carriageway ended at the A822 junction for Crieff.) Also, the M90 was
due to be completed to Perth at about the same time as the M9 reached
Dunblane.
<snip>
> When did they extend the M74 west of the M73 junction?
Late '80s or early '90s.
> I can only imagine
> what the A74 was like with streches of single carriageway - must have been
> murder getting to all points south of Glasgow. I remeber what it was like
on
> the old A94 to Dundee with single carriageway bits, and that was a
nightmare
> in itself.
I remember the old A94 with just a couple of dual-carriageway bits! The
last all-new single-carriageway section was only completed about 1975/6.
<snip>
> > A823(M) (the only other example in Scotland at the moment?), was the
start
> > of a brand new east-west motorway in Fife. (Only one short stretch was
> ever
> > completed, as part of the Forth Road Bridge works.)
>
> Have you got any more information on this proposed route? I don't see it
> making much sense because the M9 exists the other side of the Forth and
> pretty much goes to the same place. I read somewhere on the internet about
a
> proposal to dual the Kincardine Bridge, but the only time I've crossed
there
> (on a busyish Friday afternoon) there wasn't much traffic to be seen.
The A823(M) pre-dated the M9 by quite a few years and is more contemporary
with the early sections of M8. The intended route was from Kirkcaldy and
East Fife towards Kincardine and west (and south), avoiding the
ferries/tolls at the Queensferry crossing. The eastward 'motorway'
extension was eventually built as the A92 dual-carriageway from a new
junction a couple of miles further north, leaving a stub motorway just east
of the M90. The westward spur never became any more than an extended slip
road for traffic to and from Dunfermline, while the A985 to Kincardine
remains a very busy single-carriageway road.
> Is the M876's main role to connect to the Kincardine Bridge?
Yes. The Kincardine Bridge was long the preferred crossing point for
long-distance traffic from Fife and North East Scotland, and is still a good
choice to avoid rush-hour traffic on the Forth Road Bridge and A8000. The
M876 would also have been well placed to serve the Central Scotland Airport
at Skinflats (had it been developed).
<snip>
> I still marvel at the way the M8 was built through Glasgow.
For a detailed account of the M8 Glasgow Inner Ring Road, have a look at
"Rebuilding Scotland", edited by Miles Glendinning, Tuckwell Press, 1997.
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/189841033X).
> I wonder if my
> proposal for a Eastern Beltway running from the M74 Junction 6 or near
there
> to where the older section of the M80 starts would ever get off the
ground.
Even if you could thread a new motorway through the
Uddingston-Motherwell-Wishaw area, after going around Airdrie and
Cumbernauld you'd end up with a route about as long as the present
M74/M73/A80. If you had to go east of Wishaw as well, it would be much
longer, as well as crossing several environmentally sensitive areas.
Wait until the M74 (M6), M8, and M80 are open throughout, and after the
A8000 upgrade and A801 Avon Gorge Bridge are complete, then wait 5 to 10
years. Then look again at traffic patterns and forecasts and see what's
really needed. Needs change.
<snip>
> The M58 must rank as the most boring motorway ever, and I assume it's main
> role is to take cars from Liverpool to the north. I doubt the poeple in
> Skelmersdale could afford petrol, a friend of mine called that place New
> Town Hell.
I worked in Skem for a short while, and survived four weeks living there
without a car. It's like the worst parts of Glenrothes, Livingston and
Cumbernauld (three of Scotland's five "New Towns") all jumbled together in
one place. Outside of shopping hours, the main east-west pedestrian route
through the centre goes via the poorly-lit ground level of a multi-story car
park and the 1st-floor bus station is only accessible by bus!
David D Miller
Edinburgh, Scotland
Michael Anazapela
>
> 'Michael Anazapela" wrote;
>
> I still marvel at the way the M8 was built through Glasgow. I wonder if
my
> proposal for a Eastern Beltway running from the M74 Junction 6 or near
there
> to where the older section of the M80 starts would ever get off the
ground.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> -
> It is an absolutely astonishing achievement to have built a motorway
right
> through
> the very heart of the city. Does anyone know anything about the history of
> the
> 'bridge to nowhere' at Charing Cross,the reason for the layout at the
> junction for
> Kirkintilloch and if there were ever any plans to extend the M8 through to
> Greenock?
> Regarding any plans for a Glaswegian ring road,I suspect the chances are
> slim to none
> for the usual environmental and financial reasons.
I would suspect there's no need for the road to be M8 instead of A8 past the
Erskine Bridge, with most of the traffic having turned off to go to other
points. Maybe it should be M8 eastbound to help people escape Greenock :o)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> -----
> The M58 must rank as the most boring motorway ever, and I assume it's
main
> role is to take cars from Liverpool to the north. I doubt the people in
> Skelmersdale could afford petrol, a friend of mine called that place New
> Town Hell.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> It is definitely up there as the emptiest, if not the most boring,
motorway
> in Britain.
> One Friday evening(8pm) in July '99,when I was driving to a wedding in
> Southport,
> I saw just 2 vehicles on the section between the M6 and the turn for
> Southport.The urge
> to really put my foot down was very,very hard to resist but I really just
> was not in the
> mood to go for it.It was IIRC a very smooth surface.Probably,the lack of
> traffic!!!
What I don't understand is - when certain motorways are like that (empty),
they should raise the speed limit to 75-80 during certain times. Varible
speed limits would suit a lot of motorways, with a lower limit of 50 and the
max possible being 85 (at night with few cars) going around. In return for
the higher limits (at times), they should enforce the law and anyone going
over 10 mph ove the speed limit should get a automatic 4 points. Maybe even
90 would be realistic on some motorways at night.
>
> My vote for GB's most boring motorway is the M26 between Sevenoaks and
> Wrotham
> in Kent.It is,to all intents and purposes, a glorified slip
> road.Conversely,my vote for GB's
> best bit of motorway goes to the M6 over the fells in Cumbria.Definitely
one
> of my top 3
> drives in the world.
Can you really call the M26 a motorway though? I agree with the M6 being an
nice drive in Cumbria, it's like the M62 between leeds-Manchester.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ------
> I've got an map that's a few years old showing Manchester, and a A6(M) is
> proposed ....
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ------
> Any details?
The A6(M) was to have linked Junction 25/26 (the start of the old M66) of
the M60 to south of Hazel Grove, presumably to let traffic get past
Stockport. There's a website somewhere with information on it, I'll try and
have a look for it.
>
> Regards,
> Graham.
>
>
>
Michael Anazapela
David D Miller <transp...@lddl.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9d3i2c$dvl$1...@sshuraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com...
That would bore anyone to death, driving any single carriageway bits between
Perth and Glasgow. Do you think they'll ever upgrade the A9 to M9 to Perth?
Was there ever a A90 to Perth before the M90 existed? Or was it some other
road?
>
> <snip>
> > When did they extend the M74 west of the M73 junction?
>
> Late '80s or early '90s.
>
> > I can only imagine
> > what the A74 was like with streches of single carriageway - must have
been
> > murder getting to all points south of Glasgow. I remeber what it was
like
> on
> > the old A94 to Dundee with single carriageway bits, and that was a
> nightmare
> > in itself.
>
> I remember the old A94 with just a couple of dual-carriageway bits! The
> last all-new single-carriageway section was only completed about 1975/6.
We took the A92 to Dundee a couple of weeks ago instead of going the A90 - I
can only imagine the horrors and the length of time it would have taken to
go from Aberdeen to Dundee with all the traffic on the A92.
That would kill it, the evniromentally sensitive areas. I can't simply see
the current route bypassing Glasgow being enough in the next 20-30 years.
>
> Wait until the M74 (M6), M8, and M80 are open throughout, and after the
> A8000 upgrade and A801 Avon Gorge Bridge are complete, then wait 5 to 10
> years. Then look again at traffic patterns and forecasts and see what's
> really needed. Needs change.
Will they ever bother to upgrade the A8? The A8000 upgrade should happen as
soon as possible.
>
> <snip>
> > The M58 must rank as the most boring motorway ever, and I assume it's
main
> > role is to take cars from Liverpool to the north. I doubt the poeple in
> > Skelmersdale could afford petrol, a friend of mine called that place New
> > Town Hell.
>
> I worked in Skem for a short while, and survived four weeks living there
> without a car. It's like the worst parts of Glenrothes, Livingston and
> Cumbernauld (three of Scotland's five "New Towns") all jumbled together in
> one place. Outside of shopping hours, the main east-west pedestrian route
> through the centre goes via the poorly-lit ground level of a multi-story
car
> park and the 1st-floor bus station is only accessible by bus!
Glenrothes is a New Town? I never knew that. Livingston and East Kilbride
seem to be the only New Towns that actually worked, Cumbernauld looks like a
hellhole to me. I reckon the planners of Skemersdale were on drugs when they
planned it, how they ever envisioned the idea to work is beyond me. At least
you could say there's plenty of open spaces.