Must give fingerprints for Drivers License in GA, KY?
Duran
Kentucky in order to receive a drivers license or state ID card. Is this
true?
Can you refuse it?
ThrashATL
"Duran" <anti...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b2tvtb$k...@dispatch.concentric.net...
Georgia yes, fingerprints are taken.
Yes, you can refuse it. They will just hold your license.
Duran
"ThrashATL" <thra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b2u1l1$ml1$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Well, Georgia has been added to my list of never live in states.
What is there reason for this? What does requiring fingerprints bring to
the picture? Sure it MAY stop people from obtaining false licenses from the
DMV's (I say may as it could be entirely possible that someone else shows up
to get the FIRST license in your name, their fingerprints - then you are in
a heck of a mess); but how on earth does this stop people from creating
their homemade versions? I must be missing something as I just don't get
it.
Also, can I not refuse to be fingerprinted claiming it is against my
religious beliefs?
Justin
Texas requires a thumbprint scan when getting a driver's license but they do
not actually put it on the card itself. I have read that 38 states require a
fingerprint or thumbprint to get a DL...
Cheers
Justin
Dallas, TX
j...@jolomo.net
> Texas requires a thumbprint scan when getting a driver's license but they do
> not actually put it on the card itself. I have read that 38 states require a
> fingerprint or thumbprint to get a DL...
In Georgia, there is a kind of digitized blurp that is supposed to
represent the thumbprint. It looks like TV static to me
Every year since they started doing this there have been bills put forth
to try to get it removed -- haven't heard anything this session yet.
We do 40 day legislative sessions starting at the beginning of January.
--
Joe Morris, SysAdmin and Not Insane
Atlanta stories: http://jolomo.net
ThrashATL
> Well, Georgia has been added to my list of never live in states.
Thank you! We're growing out of control the way it is.
Jeff Carlyle
I don't remember getting fingerprinted to get my Kentucky driver's
license. It could've changed though in the past four years though.
--
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// Please see <www.jeffc.org> for proper usage instructions. Thank you.
Something Stinks In Here
>I heard recently that you are required to give fingerprints in Georgia and
>Kentucky in order to receive a drivers license or state ID card. Is this
>true?
Kentucky hasn't fallen that far yet.
--
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Something Stinks In Here
>What is there reason for this?
Lawmakers' volcanic hatred of the Bill of Rights is their reason for
this.
Something Stinks In Here
said:
>I don't remember getting fingerprinted to get my Kentucky driver's
>license.
I renewed mine only a year ago, and I wasn't fingerprinted.
goddfather40
California's been doing it for years. No it doesn't go on your license,
but it just goes into the general database for crimes, missing persons,
etc. I don't think it's a big deal.
Brandon Gorte
"goddfather40" <insertmy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:v55pjap...@corp.supernews.com...
Don't tell Timmy. :-)
-Brandon
Richard Ray
Give them time, Tim, give them time. You ought to see the dossier the
government already has on you...
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Something Stinks In Here
said:
>Give them time, Tim, give them time.
I will. If they want my fingerprint, I'm giving them the finger to go
with it.
Duran
> but it just goes into the general database for crimes, missing persons,
> etc. I don't think it's a big deal.
I don't really think it is a big deal per se. Let me explain:
First off, if all there were going to use it for, forever, in the future was
for drivers license purposes, I guess I don't REALLY have a problem. My
semi-problem with this is that I see absolutly no reason to require
fingerprints to receive a drivers license or state ID. It does nothing. It
does not make the license more secure, it does not make fraud more
difficult. It adds to the costs of creating a license for no good reason.
Paying tax dollars for things that do NOTHING for the ordinary citizen
(fingerprints required for DL's are a good example) yet allows the
government to gather more data on the ordinary citizen is ridiculous.
Seconly, there is a huge HUGE potential for abuse of the data. Once the
entire country requires fingerprints for some kind of ID (either every state
may do this eventually, or the much hyped, but EVIL national ID card thing)
they now have data on almost everyone to use at their disposal. If you look
back to when social security numbers were first created, they were only ever
intended to be used for tax purposes. Not credit ratings, not a personal
ID, not a unique number that private and government businesses can use to
keep track of your records, etc, etc. I even believe that it was clearly
written into law (at that time - may still be there somewhere?) that no
other government agent could use that number to identify you. Well now you
can't hardly get anything without your social security number. No drivers
license, no medical insurance, no bank accounts, no credit cards, no car
loans, no marriage licenses, no divorce decrees, no job, the list goes on
and on. We have gone from the original intent of using the social security
number for tax purposes only, to becoming dependant on that number to live
our lives. The abuse has compounded itself over the years. Now the
identity thieves are having a field day. Peoples lives are literally ruined
when someone uses your social security number fraudulantly, if you don't
believe me, research it.
Based on my observations of how the government let one simple concept of a
unique number for tax purposes get out of control, I do not trust them in
any way with accumulating data on the entire nation like the fingerprints
would do.
I really don't understand how americans are putting up with this.
Let's be realistic here also, fingerprinting every resident of the US will
do nothing to stop terrorism.
Something Stinks In Here
>I really don't understand how americans are putting up with this.
Because people are so damn dumb nowadays compared to 25 years ago.
james
Haven't heard about it in Kentucky, I'm 99% sure they don't have
fingerprinting.
Here's the list of states that do have mandatory driver's license
fingerprinting
California
Colorado
Georgia
Hawaii
Texas
West Virginia has optional fingerprinting (it's not codified into law,
and you can therefore refuse it and still be issued a driver's
license.) The five states above will tell you to take a hike if you
don't wanna be fingerprinted. ("Fingerprinted" here essentially means
placing thumb or forefinger on a electronic scanner. Some of those
states did fingerprint before electronic scanners and did use rolled
fingerprints on fingerprint cards, though I believe none of those
states do that today. I have heard a rumor that Arkansas is doing
optional fingerprinting like West Virginia but I've never confirmed
that.)
Fingerprinting is indeed quite controversial in Georgia, who has had
the law only since 1996 (the other states have had it for surprisingly
long...California optional in the mid to late 1970's...mandatory since
1982.) The Georgia state senate for many years has tried to get rid of
fingerprinting, but the head of the Georgia House, Tom Murphy, always
refused to let the bill go to the house floor. Now that Tom Murphy is
out, there is a better chance the Georgia house will actually be able
to vote on the bill. However, I'm sorta kinna keeping track of things,
and such a bill has not been introduced yet...very likely due to over
concerns related to 9/11. There has been several bills in the Georgia
house introduced requiring that an individual's citizenship appear on
the Georgia driver's license...and I plan on getting a letter down
there to some people to tell them how stupid that is.
Otherwise, fingerprinting accomplishes very little. Georgia does try
to compare the fingerprints on renewal...they will see that the
fingerprint given the first time matches what the renewal applicant is
doing the second time. On the other hand, the picture kept in the
digital archive matches as well...and it's hard to say what the
fingerprint does that the picture in the digital archive doesn't.
(Indeed, I've pointed out that you could likely eliminate almost all
of renewal fraud simply by paying closer attention to the basic
statistics: height, weight, eye color, hair color...et cetera.)
Georgia does indeed encode the fingerprint onto the card itself in a
2-D bar code, and that I think was a great sounding gimmick that no
one knows what to do with.
*No* state collects fingerprints that are of a high enough quality to
be compared to the aggregate...say, someone applies for a driver's
license, and their fingerprint is compared to the rest of the
fingerprints in the database, to see if they have another license/ID
card. This has caused a bit of embarassment for the California DMV,
but I rest my case. It may be possible to do this someday, but it'll
require some amazing equipment and a lot of training.
Having said all that, I've come around to the idea that fingerprinting
causes more driver's license fraud. The reason is that given that
fingerprinting has no significant effect on either reducing fraudulent
issuance, and it definitely has no effect at all on the homemade fake
ID cards, but, fingerprinting has an artificial effect on how people
perceive the cards--they think of them as more likely to be secure
because they were fingerprinted to get them, without actually figuring
out how that could be the case. Therefore, in states which
fingerprint, the value of a fake ID card is larger because it is
trusted more, and therefore can be used to cause more damage.
Take a look at California, which issues the nation's most secure ID
document, and fingerprints, and in spite of all that, has this
horrific fake license problem. The value of the document is simply too
high.
On the other hand, take a look at New Jersey...which still issues
non-photo licenses, and it's photo license can be faked on an ink jet
printer. While it is indeed often faked by people *in other states*
for a variety of things, no one in New Jersey actually takes the
document seriously enough for someone to do damage with it.
Michael G. Koerner
>
> Not so long ago, Justin wrote:
> > Texas requires a thumbprint scan when getting a driver's license but they do
> > not actually put it on the card itself. I have read that 38 states require a
> > fingerprint or thumbprint to get a DL...
>
> In Georgia, there is a kind of digitized blurp that is supposed to
> represent the thumbprint. It looks like TV static to me
>
> Every year since they started doing this there have been bills put forth
> to try to get it removed -- haven't heard anything this session yet.
> We do 40 day legislative sessions starting at the beginning of January.
And these same people who are all up in arms over something like this
think nothing at all of baring their very souls to the various
governments at income tax time.
Makes me wonder sometimes....
--
___________________________________________ ____ _______________
Regards, | |\ ____
| | | | |\
Michael G. Koerner May they | | | | | | rise again!
Appleton, Wisconsin USA | | | | | |
___________________________________________ | | | | | | _______________
Jack May
> a heck of a mess); but how on earth does this stop people from creating
> their homemade versions? I must be missing something as I just don't get
> it.
Police are putting electronic finger print readers in the patrol cars. When
they stop you for a violation, you will identify yourself by putting your
finger on the reader. It will be checked against the finger print stored in
the computer when you got your drivers license. It will also be checked to
see if their are any wants and warrants.
The check is supposed to eventually go all the way back to the Federal
finger print computers in West Virginia that checks for the entire US.
You certainly don't won't to be caught with a fake driver's license with the
wrong finger print. If you are a criminal or terrorist, it is going to be
very hard to continue your "profession".
Jack May
"james" <vam...@innocent.com> wrote in message
news:24d5fed3.03021...@posting.google.com...
> *No* state collects fingerprints that are of a high enough quality to
> be compared to the aggregate...say, someone applies for a driver's
> license, and their fingerprint is compared to the rest of the
> fingerprints in the database, to see if they have another license/ID
> card. This has caused a bit of embarassment for the California DMV,
> but I rest my case. It may be possible to do this someday, but it'll
> require some amazing equipment and a lot of training.
The Federal finger print center in West Va. matches to a single finger
print from a crime scene now and has been doing it for years. I don't know
how often it can get down to a single person automatically and how often
experts have to make a decision on a few prints selected by the compute.
Jack May
james
> The Federal finger print center in West Va. matches to a single finger
> print from a crime scene now and has been doing it for years. I don't know
> how often it can get down to a single person automatically and how often
> experts have to make a decision on a few prints selected by the compute.
I did incidentally say *no* state because of the FBI processing center
in Wva. :-) And I should probably add, no state DMV can
The system there is very sophisticated, costing hundreds of millions
of dollars. More importantly, all the fingerprints they got there were
professionally rolled. We can be 99.99% certain when comparing two
fingerprints, both of which were professionally rolled from
fingerprint cards, and a forensics expert is doing the comparison. We
can be pretty certain when a computer is comparing two prints which
were professionally rolled. Other than that, not much else is really
very certain. In comparison, the scanning quality of the state DMV's
fingerprint scanners is pretty lousy.
james
> Police are putting electronic finger print readers in the patrol cars. When
> they stop you for a violation, you will identify yourself by putting your
> wrong finger print. If you are a criminal or terrorist, it is going to be
> very hard to continue your "profession".
There are some interesting notes to make here.
a.) The discovery of fake licenses through normal motor vehicle patrol
operations is rare. *People don't fake licenses to drive automobiles.*
They either drive licenseless, or they use their real license
(assuming that they use fake licenses to do other things outside of
the operation of a motor vehicle.) When they do make a bust of a
person with a fake license, its not because the individual presented
the license as their true motor vehicle license...it's because the
officer suspected something, and decided to do a search.
b.) But let's say they do anyway, and someone presents a fake license
when driving. If it's fake, and the license number is run in the
computer, and either the license number doesn't exist, or the other
data elements of the license don't match, then it'll quickly become
obvious that the data is bad and the license is suspect.
Fingerprinting is not needed to indicate that.
c.) If the license is a fraudulent one...which is a bad driver's
license, in terms of it representing the indivudual incorrectly, but
which was obtained from the DMV, either by lying, or bribery or
something like that, then the fingerprint match will occur correctly,
since the individual did successfully submit their prints at the DMV
when they bribed the DMV official or whatever they did in order to get
the fraudulent license. Either way, the fingerprint check will not
indicate anything out of the ordinary.
d.) It is an interesting notion that the fingerprint check could be
run on other databases than the DMV database, like the state criminal
investigation database, or the federal database. At this time,
however, state and federal laws prevent that. (I've never compared
this idea to other states, but the only reason Ohio can fingerprint an
individual is for a voluntary state background check, or on arrest for
a felony. Except for DUI, motor vehicle situations are minor
misdemeanors.) Either way, it'll require a unique situation for the
criminal investigation check to successfully ferret someone out--an
individual with the resources to get a fraudulent license which did
pass the fingerprint check from DMV computers, but which has a
previous arrest record that would cause a failure on a criminal
investigation fingerprint check.
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