Pittsburgh Parkway East near Churchill
Bernard Newman
construction at the former site of the "European Health Spa" and "Sorry
Charlie"). Instead of hopping on the Parkway east, I took the Churchill Exit
(underpass) to Beulah Road. As I was exiting Route 22, I was on this little
two lane stretch of ramp that appeared to be an old section of Route 22 or
perhaps the Parkway before the bypass around Monroeville was built. Original
old pavement and very oldstyle guardrails. Anyone know the history of this
small segment of road? It is actually two directions with an end to the
eastbound in an odd turnaround. Definitely was some other road at some
point.
Also, what year did the Parkway East bypass around Monroeville get built? I
remember them adding a third lane in 1976-77 when I first learned to drive.
And I always remember the road (I was born in 1960)...so I assume that it
had to be around FOR AT LEAST the past 35 years.
-Bernie Newman-
ze...@magicnet.net
and see what I can figure out.
----------
In article <UilZ3.6266$n5.3...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com>, "Bernard Newman"
ze...@magicnet.net
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=11&T=1&X=1497&Y=11194&Z=17&W=2
GeneJYao
>Today I was coming from Monroeville Business Route 22 (past the new
>construction at the former site of the "European Health Spa" and "Sorry
>Charlie"). Instead of hopping on the Parkway east, I took the Churchill Exit
>(underpass) to Beulah Road. As I was exiting Route 22, I was on this little
>two lane stretch of ramp that appeared to be an old section of Route 22 or
>perhaps the Parkway before the bypass around Monroeville was built.
Are you referring to McCrady Road? I think it is part of the original William
Penn Highway. McCrady begins at Beulah Road and then branches off to the left
jsut before the ramp to the Parkway. After it branches off, it becomes "Old Wm.
Penn Highway". Then it stub ends where the Pway Extension cuts it off. McCrady
then begins again (back under the McCrady name) at the (new) Rodi Road. It then
continues to the (old) Rodi Road (names in parenthesis since both are still
known as "Rodi Road"). Past (old) Rodi, it once again becomes "Old Wm. Penn
Highway". My guess is that McCrady Road/Old William Penn Highway ceased to be
US 22 back when the new Wm. Penn Highway was built. Then, when the Parkway was
extended, the Parkway was built over the new Wm. Penn Highway, leaving old Wm.
Penn (McCrady Road) intact.
Another curious road in that area is Churchill Road and how it suddenly turns
to the west ocne it gets close to the Parkway. I'm betting that it once ended
right on Wm. Pwnn Hwy and then when that part of WP Hwy was replaced by the
Pway, Churchill Road was probably diverted west to end at Beulah Road.
Jeff Kitsko
>small segment of road?
That is indeed an old section of the highway. It used to go that way and then
through Wilkinsburg.
>Also, what year did the Parkway East bypass around Monroeville get built? I
>remember them adding a third lane in 1976-77 when I first learned to drive.
>And I always remember the road (I was born in 1960)...so I assume that it
>had to be around FOR AT LEAST the past 35 years.
See my I 376 page accessible from my main below.
Jeff Kitsko
Located on Unity TR 707 @ US 30 and PA 981
Pennsylvania Highways: http://members.aol.com/pahighways/main.html
Bernard Newman
that road would have continued into Wilkinsburg. Do you have any idea when
the current pavement was poured? If the parkway was built in the early
1950's, then that road must be, at minimum, from the prewar period. I can't
imagine that pavement holding up that well for 60 years, though, but it DOES
look like oldstyle highway, including the guardrail. Could this have been
the westbound lane, with the original eastbound lanes being where the
current Parkway (Parking Lot East, we from Swissvale called it) was
constructed?
-Bernie-
Jeff Kitsko <jjki...@aol.comNOI-99> wrote in message
news:19991121181029...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
Jeff Kitsko
>imagine that pavement holding up that well for 60 years, though, but it DOES
>look like oldstyle highway, including the guardrail. Could this have been
>the westbound lane, with the original eastbound lanes being where the
>current Parkway (Parking Lot East, we from Swissvale called it) was
>constructed?
>
Maps have shown US 22 as a solid line in that area, so it is hard to tell what
happened. I would speculate that the ramps for PA 130 in the center of the
highway would have been the eastbound lanes. They seem to line up with the
Business 22 portion.
BCBA
a book at the Monroeville Library says the Parkway extension was 1964,
and as stated earlier it was two lanes each direction with a wide grass
median. The median became two additional lanes with Jersey barrier.
Wm Penn Hwy thru Monroeville was constructed 1940-41. The
quickly-decaying concrete overpass near the Monroeville Borough Bldg has
a 1940 keystone embedded. This is also just west of where Wm Penn Hwy
crosses over and cuts its predecessor: Northern Pike.
Old Wm Penn (two-lane concrete) was displaced in several places west of
where it crosses under the Bessemer and Lake Erie RR at Leak Run.
McCully Rd was cut in half by the Parkway Extension, and a small section
of the c.1919 Old Wm Penn Hwy lies on the south side of the new highway.
A newer routing was laid along the northern edge. The course was altered
a bit more before the Jefferson Heights Rd intersection and I suspect
Green Valley Rd may have been an earlier Old Wm Penn Hwy.
Just across the Jefferson Heights bridge (which is to be replaced in
Y2K) the old path of Northern Pike emerges from the Halls Station valley
and it cut off by the Parkway Extension road cut. OWPH sneaks back under
the Parkway Extension and ascends thru a few hundred feet of Wilkins Twp
where it picks up another stub of Northern Pike. When OWPH enters
Churchill Boro it is renamed McCrady Rd (probably an early settler).
Terrasever shows the change of pavement as the road emerges on what
would have been a rather high cliff but has been cut and filled . Rodi
Rd (which replaced a previous Larimer Rd, some stubs still exist in
PennHills) is built on a series of filled embankments from 1964. Look at
the Terreserver image one click southeast of Zeno's URL:
"http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=11&T=1&X=1499&Y=11192&Z=17&W=2"
The fill carrying McCrady OWPH is visible where it leads to Rodi Rd.
However, note that McCrady continued through the Parkway Extension to
what is now a dead end section near the golf course. This dead-end is a
two lane concrete original section. When the original Parkway came to
town, it met with Old and New William Penn, which near the Churchill
Boro Bldg are the same. The road behind the boro bldg is Northern Pike.
I suspect the portion of McCrady Rd in front of the old Beulah Church is
an original path, but further east where the suburban home line the
north side of the street, I believe the concrete roadway is a service
road connector built as part of the ramps in 1964. This connector would
not have been needed when the 1941 Wm Penn Hwy merged into the end of
the Parkway extending from Pgh. And the goofy left entrances and left
entrances made more sense when the Parkway originally melted into the
1941 Wm Penn Hwy heading east into Wilkins. The entrance/exit at
Churchill Rd was also apparently added as a way to patch things
together. And technically EB traffic from Wilkinsburg to Wilkins is
supposed to turn right onto Beulah Rd (which also has an Old Beulah Rd
oxbow), then turn left onto Churchill Rd and enter the Parkway in the
right lane for immediate exit at Wilkins (yeah right...never happens).
Following Wm Penn down toward Wilkins, the road rides along a filled
embankment to the new Rodi Rd intersection. This was the first place I
remember seeing an emergency call box. It was once in the middle of
nowhere but suburbia has caught up with it. Imagine the whole area as
the hole it once was. There are also remnants of the lower elevation and
bridges of Wm Penn Hwy before the 1964 changes.
When you get to Merrie Wodd Dr, you'll find the old path of Wm Penn Hwy
(Rodi Rd / Larimer Rd) as it follows the creek valley. There is a 1941
PA Dept of Hwys bridge down there: the kind with the mission-style
ballustrade. Look at the Terraserver image to follow the old road's path
as it crosses under the current WPH and become signed as Lower Rodi Rd
near Lougeay Rd. Before 1941, there was no simple east-west road through
this area. Most of the original roads lead southward to the Turtle Creek
Valley.
The Northern Turnpike (about a half-mile north) was one of the few
east-west routes...and one of the few that cut contrary to the natural
north-south creek valleys. It was followed, in time and roughly in
course, by (Old) William Penn Hwy...which used more modern technology of
grading and paving, but was still pushed about by the merciless
topography. The transition continues in 1941 WPH which used more cuts
and fills and longer bridges. By 1964, there were no obstacles, and the
Parkway Extension cut through Monroeville as an arbitrarily drawn curve
on a map.
so much for the short answer
--bruce cridlebaugh
BCBA
>
> I suspect the portion of McCrady Rd in front of the old Beulah Church is
> an original path,
for a more detailed history (church history with roadgeek info!):
"http://www.beulahpresby.org/history.htm"
> When you get to Merrie Wodd Dr, you'll find the old path of Wm Penn Hwy
doh! that's Merrie Wood Dr
>
> --bruce cridlebaugh
ze...@magicnet.net
because of the old Beulah Church "on a hill". Actually, I think the one
before even the old one that is there..but there are not 2 hs in the name
Churchill though. It is not Churchhill but instead Churchill.
----------
In article <383985...@prisma-graphicdesign.com>, BCBA
<sys...@prisma-graphicdesign.com> wrote:
> BCBA wrote:
>>
>> I suspect the portion of McCrady Rd in front of the old Beulah Church is
>> an original path,
>
> for a more detailed history (church history with roadgeek info!):
> "http://www.beulahpresby.org/history.htm"
>
>
>> When you get to Merrie Wodd Dr, you'll find the old path of Wm Penn Hwy
>
ze...@magicnet.net
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=11&T=1&X=1501&Y=11190&Z=17&W=2
..it shows an area where construction has leveled out everything. There used
to be a health spa there with Atlas holding up a glope, etc. What was built
there? It is a big area that was leveled off.
----------
In article <383974...@prisma-graphicdesign.com>, BCBA
BCBA
>
> On the Terraserver at..
>
> http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=11&T=1&X=1501&Y=11190&Z=17&W=2
>
> ..it shows an area where construction has leveled out everything. There used
> to be a health spa there with Atlas holding up a glope, etc. What was built
> there? It is a big area that was leveled off.
>
> ----------
> In article <383974...@prisma-graphicdesign.com>, BCBA
> <sys...@prisma-graphicdesign.com> wrote:
>
> > would have been a rather high cliff but has been cut and filled . Rodi
> > Rd (which replaced a previous Larimer Rd, some stubs still exist in
> > PennHills) is built on a series of filled embankments from 1964. Look at
> > the Terreserver image one click southeast of Zeno's URL:
> > "http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=11&T=1&X=1499&Y=11192&Z=17&W=2"
> >
Atlas was most recently at the concrete law ornament supply store on
Rodi Rd. He was on top of one of the long buildings parallel to the
street. Also in that lot there is/was an Exxon Tiger and there was/is a
Piggly Wiggly. The good ones are probably not for sale.
The European Health Spa (had a disc-shaped excerise room projecting from
the main building...looked similar to the disc portion of the USS
Enterprise) and Sorry Charlie's (also a Hawaiian-themed restaurant among
other guises in its life) both suffered from poor access. I think each
building was damaged by fire before their owners abandoned business
hopes.
Now Shop n Save is building a new supermarket. And using some smarts:
they're adding a traffic light so you can actually get in and out! SnS
has been plagued by being #2 to Giant Eagle (we've already had the
supermarket thread...) but maybe this location will attract folks from
the Penn Hills GE which isn't so great.
The retaining walls on the western end of the lot remind me of the
terraces of Machu Pichu. But it doesn't take a 10-hour train ride to get
there.
And the natural stone toward the center of the lot was once a jagged
form that has been machined to nearly flat vertical wall by some kind of
grinding machine. They didn't have to excavate and build a wall when
they added a lane there.
(I added a bit more detail to my earlier lengthy post and stuck it on
the Bridges website, along with links to the Terraserver page and the
Beulah Church history. This interchange area is a somewhat-frequently
discussed topic, so I'll probably add more...)
--bruce cridlebaugh
ze...@magicnet.net
and Nightclub was, there is now a shopping center. Seems like there are
changes all around that area....
----------
In article <3839A8...@prisma-graphicdesign.com>, BCBA
<sys...@prisma-graphicdesign.com> wrote:
> ze...@magicnet.net wrote:
>>
>> On the Terraserver at..
>>
>> http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=11&T=1&X=1501&Y=11190&Z=17&W=2
>>
>> ..it shows an area where construction has leveled out everything. There used
>> to be a health spa there with Atlas holding up a glope, etc. What was built
>> there? It is a big area that was leveled off.
>>
>> ----------
>> In article <383974...@prisma-graphicdesign.com>, BCBA
>> <sys...@prisma-graphicdesign.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Terrasever shows the change of pavement as the road emerges on what
>> > would have been a rather high cliff but has been cut and filled . Rodi
>> > Rd (which replaced a previous Larimer Rd, some stubs still exist in
>> > PennHills) is built on a series of filled embankments from 1964. Look at
>> > the Terreserver image one click southeast of Zeno's URL:
>> >
"http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=11&T=1&X=1499&Y=11192&Z=17&W=2
"
>> >
>
BCBA
>
> I also see that further down Business Rt 22 where the Holiday House Hotel
> and Nightclub was, there is now a shopping center. Seems like there are
> changes all around that area....
>
What was once the "hottest joint outside of 'Vegas" is now the Holiday
Centre. But, you won't catch Dean Martin or Perry Como shopping at
Phar-Mor or Michael's Crafts.
--bruce
ze...@magicnet.net
Pitsburgh's time of "being in the bright lights". Oh well.
Is the Ground Round Restaurant still there?
In the 60s there was a deli near Zayres called "Country Gardens
Delicatesson". My mom and dad were part owners of that in the 60s. (They are
Presbyterians..go figure..the other owner was Jewish though, so that made it
legit I guess. It was Koscher though..the Rabbi came in to inspect, etc)
During the busy lunch hour they put us kids in the back room so we would not
get in the way....pout....We were very proud of the fact that some people
came over from Squirrel Hill to eat there.
----------
In article <3839BC...@prisma-graphicdesign.com>, BCBA
Bernard Newman
interesting to watch. The terraces that are going up for the new ShopnSlave
are interesting. I hope they hold up better than the ones up the road behind
KOHLS. Those new walls had to be re-excavated and fixed and who know's if
the fix will hold.
BCBA <sys...@prisma-graphicdesign.com> wrote in message
news:3839A8...@prisma-graphicdesign.com...
> ze...@magicnet.net wrote:
> >
> > On the Terraserver at..
> >
> >
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=11&T=1&X=1501&Y=11190&Z=17&W=2
> >
> > ..it shows an area where construction has leveled out everything. There
used
> > to be a health spa there with Atlas holding up a glope, etc. What was
built
> > there? It is a big area that was leveled off.
> >
> > ----------
> > In article <383974...@prisma-graphicdesign.com>, BCBA
> > <sys...@prisma-graphicdesign.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Terrasever shows the change of pavement as the road emerges on what
> > > would have been a rather high cliff but has been cut and filled . Rodi
> > > Rd (which replaced a previous Larimer Rd, some stubs still exist in
> > > PennHills) is built on a series of filled embankments from 1964. Look
at
> > > the Terreserver image one click southeast of Zeno's URL:
> > >
"http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=11&T=1&X=1499&Y=11192&Z=17&W=2
"
> > >
>
Bernard Newman
My father (now 65 and retired) used to play at the Holiday House (fondly
referred to in our home as the "HH") as the warm up act in the late 1960's
and early 1970's. He was known (and still is) as Dr. Jerry Newman, a
chiropractor from Swissvale who also did stand up comedy a la Don Rickles.
The locals loved him as he would pick on you if he knew you were in the
audience (like Rickles does). The owners of the HH, the Bertera family,
liked dad. He never headlined with his name on the marquis, but was the warm
up act for Eddie Fisher, the Mills Brothers (the last one just died), and a
few other "has beens" like Pirate Pitcher turned offseason signer (in 1971
after the World Series Championship) Nellie Briles.
Dad shed a tear when the HH got torn down, but we enjoy the memories when
occasionally shopping at Phar Mor in the Holiday Centre.
BCBA <sys...@prisma-graphicdesign.com> wrote in message
news:3839BC...@prisma-graphicdesign.com...
Jeff Kitsko
>and Nightclub was, there is now a shopping center. Seems like there are
>changes all around that area....
That isn't the half of it. Over the past few years a Pep Boys and Circuit City
were built near the Sears. And cause they go hand in hand, Home Depot is
across the street.
Kohl's department store opened right below Monroeville Mall. Now, of course
where there is a Circuit City, there is a Best Buy. Which has just opened.
Jeff Kitsko
The only thing I remember about the Holiday House was a performance of some
type was going on, and a near riot broke out.
>In the 60s there was a deli near Zayres called "Country Gardens
>Delicatesson".
Ah, Zayre's, how I remember it well. My mom used to take me shopping at the
one in Olympia Shopping Center.
BCBA
>
> >I also see that further down Business Rt 22 where the Holiday House Hotel
> >and Nightclub was, there is now a shopping center. Seems like there are
> >changes all around that area....
>
> That isn't the half of it. Over the past few years a Pep Boys and Circuit City
> were built near the Sears. And cause they go hand in hand, Home Depot is
> across the street.
>
> Kohl's department store opened right below Monroeville Mall. Now, of course
> where there is a Circuit City, there is a Best Buy. Which has just opened.
>
the unplanned march of progress continues as I remind us of the CompUSA
between HomeDepot (used to be King's Motel next to the Hall Station
Bridge) and Sears (still there in Penn Center, but remodelled). That
CompUSA is what, a year maybe two years old...and doomed to be a Mon-Fay
offramp.
Circuit City and its Wilkins neighbors are in the right place at the
right time. How long before GM Training Center decides to sell its prime
spot...hmmm?
And Wilkins is fighting for an identity. It ain't Monroeville, it ain't
Churchill, it ain't Penn Hills....it's not just that valley on the way
to Turtle Creek. They even passed an ordinance restricting businesses
located within its borders from advertising as Monroeville (which they
have always implied or directly stated). Some thing about making it
difficult for emergency services to locate trouble...uhhh yeah...
And they pushed PennDOT to bend the rules and install a "Wilkins Twp
(damn it)" sign at the Monroeville Business 22 exit from the Parkway.
(exit 11 i think)
Places like Zoresco Truck Bodies on Lower Rodi Rd (Wilkins) changed
their radio ads to say that they were "near Monroeville"
--bruce cridlebaugh
Bernard Newman
the "Jewish" spots. Zayre has been gone for about 15 years and that whole
plaza is pretty crappy. I suspect it will end up under the wrecking ball for
a more modern plaza. The area is boomtown..traffic just crawls.
<ze...@magicnet.net> wrote in message
news:Etj_3.155665$Ow5.2...@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
> Johnny Carson even mentioned the Holiday House once on the Tonight Show.
> Pitsburgh's time of "being in the bright lights". Oh well.
>
> Is the Ground Round Restaurant still there?
>
>
> In the 60s there was a deli near Zayres called "Country Gardens
> Delicatesson". My mom and dad were part owners of that in the 60s. (They
are
> Presbyterians..go figure..the other owner was Jewish though, so that made
it
> legit I guess. It was Koscher though..the Rabbi came in to inspect, etc)
> During the busy lunch hour they put us kids in the back room so we would
not
> get in the way....pout....We were very proud of the fact that some people
> came over from Squirrel Hill to eat there.
>
> ----------
> In article <3839BC...@prisma-graphicdesign.com>, BCBA
> <sys...@prisma-graphicdesign.com> wrote:
>
>
> > ze...@magicnet.net wrote:
> >>
> >> I also see that further down Business Rt 22 where the Holiday House
Hotel
> >> and Nightclub was, there is now a shopping center. Seems like there are
> >> changes all around that area....
> >>
> >
Bernard Newman
them. It's too late for them to develop their own identity. Business will
hurt if they have to advertize "Wilkins Township" (where's that...I'm not
gonna try to find Wilkins Township...I'll just go to MONROEVILLE").
BCBA <sys...@prisma-graphicdesign.com> wrote in message
news:3839CF...@prisma-graphicdesign.com...
> Jeff Kitsko wrote:
> >
> > >I also see that further down Business Rt 22 where the Holiday House
Hotel
> > >and Nightclub was, there is now a shopping center. Seems like there are
> > >changes all around that area....
> >
BCBA
The Ground Round stills stands (but I think is largely ignored)
No one calls the Country Garden Center by that name though the sign
still sez so. Zayre, merged with Murphy's, etc, into Ames. The store
closed and it now Value City Furniture...also not a hot draw. The Zayre
garden center was converted to a Greyhound bus terminal for a
while...that has since moved to the back of the Mall. The garden center
is now a Goodwill Store.
the Monroe Theater was converted to an Oasis Record Store (invented by
National Record Mart when Peaches brought the superstore concept to
town. It has since been the home of various nuisance nightclubs. The
rest of the strip is home to an authentic Indian restaurant operated and
patronized by authentic Indians (not native americans). We have a
somewhat large population of folks from India here and a pair of quite
architecturally-lush temples in Monroeville. One can be seen from I-376
near McCully Rd (mentioned in a previous part of this thread).
The gas station in front of the center (Boron) changed into a
Computerland, and various other forgettable stores. Other equally
forgettable stores occupy the other outparcels up toward the concrete
overpass.
Across the street Willi's Ski Shop moved from its tiny chateau-esque
building (now a wild bird food store) next door to what used to be the
Mr. Donut shop in a small strip. There are a couple other transient
stores heading down the hill (literally and figuratively) to the west.
Johnny Garneau's Smorgasbord (where I had my Cub Scout awards banquet)
is now unrecognizable as a Check E. Cheese. And A&L Motors (Arm and a
Leg) still occupies its same location...now selling Jags and B'mers in
addition to its original lines of Brit sports cars.
Cochran Pontiac's building burned right about the same time that they
moved to the former Kaufmann's building near PA48. Suspicious? but
nothing ever came of it. Cochran has since become one of the
major-mass-market-we-sell-every-brand superdealers. Now a struggling
strip center occupies almost exactly the same footprint. And there is
still an intermittent, if rather high waterfall behind the building. No
Bridal Veil Falls, but it's close to 150 feet I guess.
--bruce cridlebaugh (not so upset that they tore down the Monroevillle
Mall Merchandise Mart including its indoor fountain court...cause they
built a Borders Book Store instead...woo hoo!)
ze...@magicnet.net wrote:
>
> Johnny Carson even mentioned the Holiday House once on the Tonight Show.
> Pitsburgh's time of "being in the bright lights". Oh well.
>
> Is the Ground Round Restaurant still there?
>
> In the 60s there was a deli near Zayres called "Country Gardens
> Delicatesson". My mom and dad were part owners of that in the 60s. (They are
> Presbyterians..go figure..the other owner was Jewish though, so that made it
> legit I guess. It was Koscher though..the Rabbi came in to inspect, etc)
> During the busy lunch hour they put us kids in the back room so we would not
> get in the way....pout....We were very proud of the fact that some people
> came over from Squirrel Hill to eat there.
>
> ----------
> In article <3839BC...@prisma-graphicdesign.com>, BCBA
> <sys...@prisma-graphicdesign.com> wrote:
>
> > ze...@magicnet.net wrote:
> >>
> >> I also see that further down Business Rt 22 where the Holiday House Hotel
> >> and Nightclub was, there is now a shopping center. Seems like there are
> >> changes all around that area....
> >>
> >
ze...@magicnet.net
It was around the year 1967 that we were involved in that Deli.
In article <Npk_3.7278$n5.4...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com>, "Bernard Newman"
<bnew...@home.com> wrote:
> I am Jewish and do not remember your deli...sorry. And we DID frequent all
> the "Jewish" spots. Zayre has been gone for about 15 years and that whole
> plaza is pretty crappy. I suspect it will end up under the wrecking ball for
> a more modern plaza. The area is boomtown..traffic just crawls.
>
>
> <ze...@magicnet.net> wrote in message
> news:Etj_3.155665$Ow5.2...@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
ze...@magicnet.net
the same parking lot. After the Deli closed I think it became a Color Tile
store...
----------
ad...@interlog.com
*GASP*
Posts like this are better than sex...you agree? (Almost)
ad...@interlog.com
> BCBA wrote:
> >
> > I suspect the portion of McCrady Rd in front of the old Beulah Church is
> > an original path,
>
> for a more detailed history (church history with roadgeek info!):
> "http://www.beulahpresby.org/history.htm"
>
> > When you get to Merrie Wodd Dr, you'll find the old path of Wm Penn Hwy
>
> doh! that's Merrie Wood Dr
No prob'. You just contributed the best off-colour typo this NG's ever seen
ze...@magicnet.net
Since you are in Pitcarin...
My wifes maiden name is Hicks, and her grandgather was Pitcarin Borough
Secretary many years ago.. The mayor declared it William M. Hicks Day in
Pitcarin when he retired.
Also, during the 193030s, my dad collected, (or tried to collect) water bill
money in Pitcarin.
Now let's all sing It's A Small World....
----------
In article <3839D4...@prisma-graphicdesign.com>, BCBA
<sys...@prisma-graphicdesign.com> wrote:
ze...@magicnet.net
----------
In article <19991122193707...@ng-ce1.aol.com>, gene...@aol.com
(GeneJYao) wrote:
> zeno wrote:
>
>>I also see that further down Business Rt 22 where the Holiday House Hotel
>>and Nightclub was, there is now a shopping center.
>
> The Holiday House was torn down in 1988. It was around that same time that the
> European Health Spa burned down. Also, the McDonald's in Mracle Mile shopping
> center burned down a year later (now replaced with a 2-story one). About the
> same time, the original No. 1 Cochran burned down. A few years before that,
the
> Route 22 Motel burned down. Alot of fires there at that time.
>
>>Seems like there are changes all around that area....
>
> Actually the changes in Monroeville/Wilkins pale as compared to the changes in
> Cranberry and Robinson/North Fayette. One thing that definitely hasn't cahnged
> in that area is Monroeville Mall. While its twin in the south - South Hills
> Village - underwent massive renovation and malls such as Northway, North Hills
> Village, and some would say, Century III, have fallen upon hard times,
> Monroeville Mall is still in the old form it always was.
GeneJYao
>And Wilkins is fighting for an identity. It ain't Monroeville, it ain't
>Churchill, it ain't Penn Hills....it's not just that valley on the way
>to Turtle Creek.
Wilkins' plight is similar to that of many of Allegheny County's old townships
that have seen their msot populated lands split off into boroughs. Until the
60's Allgheny County law made it easy for suburbanized regions of townships to
seceed and form boroughs. This often left the remainder of the township
depopulated and without an identity. Often times, the remnants of those
townships were areas stuck in valleys that were too ahrd to develop and thus
remained underpopulated. Wilkins is a good example of this. Churchill and
Wilkinsburg split off, leaving a Wilkins Township without any identity. Baldwin
Township is another example. First Brentwood split off, then Whitehall split
off, and then the bulk of Baldwin split off and became Baldwin Borough, leaving
Baldwin Township as a tiny piece of land that people often assume is part of
something else. And there's O'Hara Twp. which has never recovered from having
lsot Fox Chapel Borough. But perhaps the best example of a place left without
an identity is Scott Township. It lost Mount Lebanon, Carnegie, Heidelberg, and
Dormont. Because it is surrounded by places with more identity, people often
confuse Scott for the next municipality over. Part of it look like they belong
in Mount Lebanon, parts look like Greentree and parts look like Carnegie.
GeneJYao
Bernard Newman
Jeff Kitsko
Still there and vibrant as ever. The only thing is that Lazarus has closed and
will now be a Kaufmann's Furniture Department. If only Macy's and Nordstroms
would get their asses in gear and move into it, they could stop the vacating of
the anchor stores.
When my mom worked in McKeesport at a bank, one of her co-workers was forbidden
to shop their by her husband. He said it was going to sink into the ground.
Well, 20 some years later and its still there.
A friend of mine that I used to go to grade school with, his grandparents own a
construction company that helped build the elevated parking structure.
GeneJYao
>What has happened to the Century III Mall? A lot of empty stores?...
No, it is still alive. However, it has definitely seen better days. The
Gimbel's closed down (as did the chain) and became separated into a TJ Maxx and
a Marshalls (the Marshalls later closed down and became a Wickes Furniture
store). The other stores in Century III seem to have missed out on 90's
make-overs that their sister stores in other malls have gotten. Then, the final
insult came when Lazarus (which took over from Horne's which took over from
Montgomery Ward) closed down - to be replaced by a Kauffmann's furniture store.
Apparently, that branch of Lazarus was their least profitable metro Pittsburgh
store. Also, the mall went through a make-over in the mid-90's that, in my
opinion, made it look worse.
GeneJYao
>If only Macy's and Nordstroms would get their asses in gear and move >into it,
they could stop the vacating of the anchor stores.
Macy's won't open anytime soon. Macy's is owned by Federated Department
stores, which also owns Lazarus. They won't open a competing chain in the
Pittsburgh market. In other markets where Federated owned a competing chain
before they took over Macy's, they either closed the other chain down or
changed the stores over to Mazy's (example: Boston's Jordan Marsh and NYC's
Abraham & Strauss). Even if they were to bring Macy's into Pittsburgh, they
wouldn't do it in Century III since they've already had a bad experience there
with Lazarus.
As for Nordstrom's, if they enter the Pittsburgh market they'll be more likely
to do it in either Ross Park Mall or South Hills Village. SHV is probably the
best choice. I have a feeling, however, that Nordstrom is less enthusiastic
about entering Pittsburgh now that Lord and Taylor is coming. I don't think the
Pittsburgh market is large enough for the both of them.
Jeff Kitsko
>opinion, made it look worse.
>
I remember the first time I was there after the remodeling, I thought they
hadn't finished the work on the skylights. There is no wall between the
ceiling tile and the start of the skylights. You can see straight into the
steel supports.
Atleast they got rid of that 2 level piece of crap thing that stood outside of
Kaufmann's. What the hell was that thing?
Bernard Newman
more or less second tier stores. That mall was built in 1979, just at the
very beginning of the end of the steel industry. And since it serves the Mon
valley, it obviously can't do as well as the malls in what has become the
more affluent areas. Frankly, I hate C3Mall. I also dislike Ross Park Mall,
even though it IS thriving. I like the Monroeville (WILKINS TOWNSHIP?????
<G>) Mall because it's straight...you hit the bottom level then the top
level...no chance of getting lost. By the way, an earlier post mentioned
that the Monroeville Mall hasn't changed. That's not true. About 15 years
ago they removed the ice-skating rink and installed a food court there. That
WAS a major structural change. And Kaufmanns (formerly a Gimbels) added a
third floor.
-Bernie-
Jeff Kitsko <jjki...@aol.comNOI-99> wrote in message
news:19991122225332...@ng-fi1.aol.com...
> >What has happened to the Century III Mall? A lot of empty stores?...
>
> Still there and vibrant as ever. The only thing is that Lazarus has
closed and
> will now be a Kaufmann's Furniture Department. If only Macy's and
Nordstroms
> would get their asses in gear and move into it, they could stop the
vacating of
> the anchor stores.
>
> When my mom worked in McKeesport at a bank, one of her co-workers was
forbidden
> to shop their by her husband. He said it was going to sink into the
ground.
> Well, 20 some years later and its still there.
>
> A friend of mine that I used to go to grade school with, his grandparents
own a
> construction company that helped build the elevated parking structure.
>
Jeff Kitsko
>WAS a major structural change. And Kaufmanns (formerly a Gimbels) added a
>third floor.
Also, Lazarus (then Horne's) added a third level in the mid to late 1980s. I
remember that during construction, a beam came crashing thru the second level
of the store.
BCBA
products distributor. This company used to be at the corner of Center Rd
and Wm Penn Hwy next to the old hardware store. That building was
leveled this year, along with several others including one of the
original Arby's. Now it's a new freestanding Eckerd Drugstore -- of of
"hudnreds" being built on every other street corner.
--bruce
BCBA
before it's too late. With the creeping regionalism, maybe all the towns
will be known only by the five or so school districts which are left
after the consolidations... :-/
BCBA
>
> >What has happened to the Century III Mall? A lot of empty stores?...
>
> to shop their by her husband. He said it was going to sink into the ground.
> Well, 20 some years later and its still there.
>
to mine the slag pile which looms high above it.
I expect when the Mon-Fay slides across PA51 they'll build a Large Mall
at Large, PA. The growth will shift down the street for a while. C3 and
its area will continue to dry up. (Hechingers, Hills, Chuck E. Cheese,
etc.) Adam won't have to drive as far to get to the mall.
--bruce
BCBA
> > (Rodi Rd / Larimer Rd) as it follows the creek valley. There is a 1941
> > PA Dept of Hwys bridge down there: the kind with the mission-style
> > ballustrade. Look at the Terraserver image to follow the old road's path
> > as it crosses under the current WPH and become signed as Lower Rodi Rd
> > near Lougeay Rd. Before 1941, there was no simple east-west road through
> > this area. Most of the original roads lead southward to the Turtle Creek
> > Valley.
> >
> > The Northern Turnpike (about a half-mile north) was one of the few
> > east-west routes...and one of the few that cut contrary to the natural
> > north-south creek valleys. It was followed, in time and roughly in
> > course, by (Old) William Penn Hwy...which used more modern technology of
> > grading and paving, but was still pushed about by the merciless
> > topography. The transition continues in 1941 WPH which used more cuts
> > and fills and longer bridges. By 1964, there were no obstacles, and the
> > Parkway Extension cut through Monroeville as an arbitrarily drawn curve
> > on a map.
> >
> > so much for the short answer
> >
> > --bruce cridlebaugh
>
> *GASP*
>
> Posts like this are better than sex...you agree? (Almost)
Note: Not Intended As A Spouse Substitute.
(but sometimes it'll just have to suffice...especially the arbitrary
curves on a map)
--bruce
BCBA
>
> BCBA wrote:
>
> > BCBA wrote:
> > >
> > > I suspect the portion of McCrady Rd in front of the old Beulah Church is
> > > an original path,
> >
> > "http://www.beulahpresby.org/history.htm"
> >
> > > When you get to Merrie Wodd Dr, you'll find the old path of Wm Penn Hwy
> >
> > doh! that's Merrie Wood Dr
>
> No prob'. You just contributed the best off-colour typo this NG's ever seen
i'm glad it was good for you too
(do you smoke after typing? don't know -- i never looked)
BCBA
>
> >Also, the mall went through a make-over in the mid-90's that, in my
> >opinion, made it look worse.
> >
>
> I remember the first time I was there after the remodeling, I thought they
> hadn't finished the work on the skylights. There is no wall between the
> ceiling tile and the start of the skylights. You can see straight into the
> steel supports.
>
> Atleast they got rid of that 2 level piece of crap thing that stood outside of
> Kaufmann's. What the hell was that thing?
>
do you mean the thing they tried to pass off as sculpture? a poor excuse
for a climbing wall i'd say. if you care i can post some info from a Pgh
sculpture book i have here. believe it or else, it's in there. 8-0
outside, the hardened steel "mushrooms" from the hot metal RR cars are
more interesting.
--bruce
Jeff Kitsko
>for a climbing wall i'd say. if you care i can post some info from a Pgh
>sculpture book i have here. believe it or else, it's in there. 8-0
Yeah, thats it. It was hard on the eyes in my opinion.
BCBA
>
> >do you mean the thing they tried to pass off as sculpture? a poor excuse
> >for a climbing wall i'd say. if you care i can post some info from a Pgh
> >sculpture book i have here. believe it or else, it's in there. 8-0
>
> Yeah, thats it. It was hard on the eyes in my opinion.
>
11 feet wide and 28 feet tall by H. Douglas Pickering in 1980:
" 'Pittsburgh Reflections' was designed (to represent) a broad range of
hometown industrial processes...the city's spirit and strength -- its
past struggles and its unfolding present and future as we move into
'century three' of our country's history...to image the greatness of
Pittsburgh"
so he sez
how many of the rest of us saw "black marble and stainless steel with
lacquered acrylic parts"?
...gimme a Frank Vittor, Augustus Saint-Gaudens, Giuseppe Moretti, Leo
Lentelli, or Charles Keck any day...
--bruce cridlebaugh (who can tell the difference between comic relief
and bas-relief)
ad...@interlog.com
Though If they kept it around a bit longer, it might have ironically become a
cherished period piece ;-)
ze...@magicnet.net
Heights not having the 911 phone number? A book I just got on Pgh says that.
----------
In article <19991123200047...@ng-fv1.aol.com>, gene...@aol.com
(GeneJYao) wrote:
> BCBA wrote:
>
>>so the only "defense" is to do as Patton Twp did and become Monroeville
>>before it's too late. With the creeping regionalism, maybe all the towns
>>will be known only by the five or so school districts which are left
>>after the consolidations... :-/
>
> Actually, the old law was taken out in the 60's (after many townships lost
too
> much revenue to secessionist boroughs). Sicne the 60's there have only been a
> few splits. I expect the enxt split to take place when Nevillewood (an upper
> income area in otherwise rural Collier Twp.) splits of of Collier. Collier
> relocated their municipal building next to Nevillewood a few years ago - a
move
> which I suspect was an attempt to keep Nevillewood within Collier.
> In any case, I think all of Allegheny County should consolidate into the City
> of Pittsburgh. The signs are all there that this should take place. There are
> too many small boroughs - like Wall and Wilkinsburg - that have gone or are
> going bankrupt ebcuase they have lsot revenue and yet still have to pay for
> their own services. It would make more sense for one single government to
> oversee everything. Townships which don't want to join - I assume these places
> will be Fox Chapel, Sewickley, Upper St. Clair, and a few other successfully
> independent areas - can opt out. This will be similar to what happened when
> Marion Co. in Indiana consolidated into Indianapolis.
ze...@magicnet.net
1968, but what month?
----------
In article <19991123201758...@ng-fv1.aol.com>, gene...@aol.com
(GeneJYao) wrote:
> bnewman3 wrote:
>
>>I also dislike Ross Park Mall, even though it IS thriving.
>
> Ross Park is alot like Century III, both of them tacky 1970's and 1980's
> designs. There's way too much use of chrome and there's too much of a
> utilitarian look. Also, both malls are mazes, particularly Century III.
>
>>By the way, an earlier post mentioned that the Monroeville Mall hasn't
>>changed. That's not true. About 15 years ago they removed the ice-skating rink
> and installed a food court there.
>
> True, but it wasn't a major makeover of the type South Hills Village and the
> failed Northway and North Hills Village got. The rest of Monroeville Mall,
with
> the exception of the anchors and store changes, is still the original from
> 1969.
> As for my favorite Pgh-area mall, it is SHV. It is built on the same plan as
> Monroeville Mall (MM was modeled after SHV) and is thus simple and
> straightforward. Also it has recently been remodeled and enlarged (addition of
> a food court). SHV, opened in 1965, is one of the oldest malls in Pgh, and
> easily the oldest major mall. It has outlasted many other malls and has
> outshined several others. Its the oldest and yet still the best.
GeneJYao
>I expect when the Mon-Fay slides across PA51 they'll build a Large Mall
>at Large, PA. The growth will shift down the street for a while. C3 and
>its area will continue to dry up. (Hechingers, Hills, Chuck E. Cheese,
>etc.) Adam won't have to drive as far to get to the mall.
I don't think they'll be building another mall in that area for quite a while.
If they do, there will be two suffering malls. At the very least, any
development will have to wait for when (*if* when) PA 43 is connected with
Pittsburgh. Until then, Jefferson Hills will be too distant to be a viable
commuting suburb. If PA 43 is connected to Pittsburgh, and if the Pittsburgh
economy grows, I expect that Jefferson Hills will boom.
As for Century III, it seems like it is devolving into merely being the hub of
a major commercialized area of big box retailers. When it first opened, it was
the main draw for the area. However, now it seems like most people go to that
area for the surrounding big box retailers like Best Buy, Walmart, etc. Century
III's devolution hasn't helped. 15 years ago, people would go to C3 to go to
stores that were not available elsewhere. However, now it seems like South
Hills Village and Ross Park Mall get the first pick when it comes to opening
new stores. Century III is seen as second-tier. The fact that Century III has
lost yet another anchor (leaving only Kaufmann's as the "classy" store) only
worsens the situation.
GeneJYao
GeneJYao
doesn't represent "Pittsburgh Reflections". Rather, it represents the tackiness
of the late 70's and early 80's - just like those cherry-shaped lamps within C3
Mall. Speaking of mall fixtures, does anyone know why the malls have generally
gotten rid of the fountains and exotic bird cages that used to be so prevalent
in malls?
GeneJYao
Dyche Anderson
> In any case, I think all of Allegheny County should consolidate into the City
> of Pittsburgh. The signs are all there that this should take place. There are
> too many small boroughs - like Wall and Wilkinsburg - that have gone or are
> going bankrupt ebcuase they have lsot revenue and yet still have to pay for
> their own services. It would make more sense for one single government to
> oversee everything. Townships which don't want to join - I assume these places
> will be Fox Chapel, Sewickley, Upper St. Clair, and a few other successfully
> independent areas - can opt out. This will be similar to what happened when
> Marion Co. in Indiana consolidated into Indianapolis.
The UniGov program in Indianapolis was actually a merger of the governments of
the old City of Indianapolis and Marion County. Indianapolis did not annex
Marion county, although some of the small towns did give up independence. The Mayor
of Indianapolis is also the County Executive of Marion county. It's a convoluted
situation. There are many police departments and fire departments in Marion County.
Some of the tiny suburbs - such as Crows Nest (pop 104), North Crows Nest (pop 51), and
Spring Hill (pop 103) still exist. All told, there are 15 municipalities not counting
Indianpolis left in Marion County. The City of Indianapolis is considered to be Marion
County less those 15 towns, but even they get to vote for the mayor. The Marion County
(or is it the City) web site explains the convoluted arrangement.
Furthermore, in Indiana, townships never die, so there are nine township governments
in Marion County (Indiana has weak townships). The Census Bureau is nice enough to
divide up the city populations by township.
At the time of Unigov, the majority of the population of Marion County lived in the
old city. Even today, some of the townships have substantial rural areas.
Allegheny County's problem is too many incorporated towns. While I doubt that a
county-wide
consolidation is the proper solution, I will whole-heartedly agree that many of the
smaller
communities would be wise to give up their independence, and merge into new communities,
which should have a new name - or go back into their original townships, where they
still exist and are contiguous. Allegheny County has something like 130 municipalities,
with 16 of them having populations under 1000, 70 with populations under 5000, and 102
of them with populations under 10,000 (comprising only 30.08% of the county). Most of
these small municipalities are boroughs.
Just to compare, I looked at Wayne County, Michigan (Detroit), where I live. Wayne County
has 2.1 million people, and 43 municipalities in a land area 100 sq mi smaller than
Allegheny
County. Only eight municipalities - 7 cities and 1 village - had 1998 populations under
10,000.
Dyche Anderson
Bernard Newman
from a paramedic who just gave someone from a "lesser" community
mouth-to-mouth!!!!
Or perhaps they all have their own paramedics on staff in their homes.
-Bernie-
<ze...@magicnet.net> wrote in message
news:jgI_3.158055$Ow5.2...@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
> Speaking of Sewickley not joining things..what is it with only Sewickly
> Heights not having the 911 phone number? A book I just got on Pgh says
that.
>
> ----------
> In article <19991123200047...@ng-fv1.aol.com>,
gene...@aol.com
> (GeneJYao) wrote:
>
>
> > BCBA wrote:
> >
> >>so the only "defense" is to do as Patton Twp did and become Monroeville
> >>before it's too late. With the creeping regionalism, maybe all the towns
> >>will be known only by the five or so school districts which are left
> >>after the consolidations... :-/
> >
> > Actually, the old law was taken out in the 60's (after many townships
lost
> too
> > much revenue to secessionist boroughs). Sicne the 60's there have only
been a
> > few splits. I expect the enxt split to take place when Nevillewood (an
upper
> > income area in otherwise rural Collier Twp.) splits of of Collier.
Collier
> > relocated their municipal building next to Nevillewood a few years ago -
a
> move
> > which I suspect was an attempt to keep Nevillewood within Collier.
Bernard Newman
<ze...@magicnet.net> wrote in message
news:2iI_3.158056$Ow5.2...@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
> What month and year did the Monroeville Mall open. I am pretty sure it was
> 1968, but what month?
>
> ----------
> In article <19991123201758...@ng-fv1.aol.com>,
gene...@aol.com
> (GeneJYao) wrote:
>
>
BCBA
i didn't mean to imply "friendly competition"...everywhere you look,
they keep building new strip centers across the street from empty
storefronts
--bruce
BCBA
"ecomony" car
--bruce
Bernard Newman wrote:
>
> They're afraid to use a common 911 ambulance, as they might contract cooties
> from a paramedic who just gave someone from a "lesser" community
> mouth-to-mouth!!!!
>
> Or perhaps they all have their own paramedics on staff in their homes.
>
> -Bernie-
>
> <ze...@magicnet.net> wrote in message
Bruce Harper
<gene...@aol.com> wrote:
This is sliding a tad off-topic, but I'm not complaining. As to the
end of the fountains and birds, I imagine some of the leasing agents
got the word from their attorneys that they are a potential liability
(not to mention a maintenance drain). The local Lowe's store in
Christiansburg was in the news a year or two ago because of a couple
of deaths and serious illness from Legionaire's Disease. They had a
hot tub set up and running as an in-store demo and it didn't see the
care and maintenance it should have. Customers who lingered near the
moving water and vapors were exposed to the necessary "bugs" to contract
Legionaire's. The outcome of the subsequent investigation now has most
hot-tubs empty in displays (at least in the Lowe's chain). The mall
fountains could present pretty much the same problem and possibility of
lawsuits from customers exposed to the spray. Exotic birds carry
somewhat of the same risk, especially for those who might have some
type of allergy.
Bruce in Blacksburg But a native of the 'Burgh
BCBA
>
> bnewman3 wrote:
>
> >I also dislike Ross Park Mall, even though it IS thriving.
>
> Ross Park is alot like Century III, both of them tacky 1970's and 1980's
> designs. There's way too much use of chrome and there's too much of a
> utilitarian look. Also, both malls are mazes, particularly Century III.
>
> >By the way, an earlier post mentioned that the Monroeville Mall hasn't
> >changed. That's not true. About 15 years ago they removed the ice-skating rink
> and installed a food court there.
>
> True, but it wasn't a major makeover of the type South Hills Village and the
> the exception of the anchors and store changes, is still the original from
> 1969.
> As for my favorite Pgh-area mall, it is SHV. It is built on the same plan as
> Monroeville Mall (MM was modeled after SHV) and is thus simple and
> straightforward. Also it has recently been remodeled and enlarged (addition of
> a food court). SHV, opened in 1965, is one of the oldest malls in Pgh, and
> easily the oldest major mall. It has outlasted many other malls and has
> outshined several others. Its the oldest and yet still the best.
Monroeville Mall: how many people miss the tropical plants covering the
lavarocks (see the Dawn of the Dead movie)...or the "world's largest
clock with mechanical puppets acting out various fairytales"...but they
have started using the fountains at the Fountain Court again --
occasionally. (it's usually covered by a wooden stage platform...local
school kids know they've hit the big time, when their school play or
dance group performs at the Mall). I think the fountains had some
"world's biggest" title at the time, too.
--bruce
Dyche Anderson
>
> What month and year did the Monroeville Mall open. I am pretty sure it was
> 1968, but what month?
>
1969 sticks in my mind. I don't remember the month.
Dyche Anderson
GeneJYao
>
> What month and year did the Monroeville Mall open. I am pretty sure it was
> 1968, but what month?
It opened in 1969. They should be having their 30th year anniversary soon, if
they haven't already. I remember their 20th year anniversary in 1989 when they
had their "friend of the family" commercials. I beleive that was during the
later part of the year so I would say that MM opened in the Fall of 1969,
probably in November or maybe October.
SHV opened in 1965, Ross Park opened in the Spring of1987 and Century III
opened in 1979. It always boggles my mind that SHV is actually several years
older than Monroeville Mall. Even before the overhaul, SHV looked newer than
Monroeville Mall. SHV had a somewhat sleeker look. The floorplans of the two
malls, however, are (or were) basically the same, even right down to the
strip-mall annex in the parking lot.
Dyche Anderson
South Hills Village had an interesting feature (at least in the late 60's - early 70s).
There
was a three story professional complex inside the mall. What was interesting about it
that the
floors were numbered in reverse - the first floor was on the top (it was the level you
entered), and the third floor was on the bottom.
Dyche Anderson
GeneJYao
>South Hills Village had an interesting feature (at least in the late 60's -
early 70s).
>There was a three story professional complex inside the mall. What was
interesting about it
>that the floors were numbered in reverse - the first floor was on the top (it
was the level you
>entered), and the third floor was on the bottom.
Its still there. I don't know why they decided to use reverse numbering. Also,
was the first floor of the professional center on the second floor of the mall
or was the first floor of the professional center on the first floor of the
mall (thus making the mall a total of 5 floors)? I wonder if a similar center
existed in Monroeville Mall. Another interesting thing was that before both the
Lazarus and the Kaufmann's got third floors, the elevators already had a third
floor button. Was there already a third floor that was used as storage? I
noticed that externally, when the third floors were added, there was no change.
Bernard Newman
one.
-Bernie-
Dyche Anderson <dy...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:383C9D6E...@mediaone.net...
> GeneJYao wrote:
> >
> > ze...@magicnet.net wrote:
> > >
> > > What month and year did the Monroeville Mall open. I am pretty sure it
was
> > > 1968, but what month?
> >
> > It opened in 1969. They should be having their 30th year
anniversary soon, if
> > they haven't already. I remember their 20th year anniversary in 1989
when they
> > had their "friend of the family" commercials. I beleive that was during
the
> > later part of the year so I would say that MM opened in the Fall of
1969,
> > probably in November or maybe October.
> > SHV opened in 1965, Ross Park opened in the Spring of1987 and
Century III
> > opened in 1979. It always boggles my mind that SHV is actually several
years
> > older than Monroeville Mall. Even before the overhaul, SHV looked newer
than
> > Monroeville Mall. SHV had a somewhat sleeker look. The floorplans of the
two
> > malls, however, are (or were) basically the same, even right down to the
> > strip-mall annex in the parking lot.
>
> South Hills Village had an interesting feature (at least in the late
60's - early 70s).
> There
> was a three story professional complex inside the mall. What was
interesting about it
> that the
> floors were numbered in reverse - the first floor was on the top (it was
the level you
> entered), and the third floor was on the bottom.
>
> Dyche Anderson
Dyche Anderson
>
> dyche wrote:
>
> >South Hills Village had an interesting feature (at least in the late 60's -
> early 70s).
> >There was a three story professional complex inside the mall. What was
> interesting about it
> >that the floors were numbered in reverse - the first floor was on the top (it
> was the level you
> >entered), and the third floor was on the bottom.
>
> was the first floor of the professional center on the second floor of the mall
> or was the first floor of the professional center on the first floor of the
> mall (thus making the mall a total of 5 floors)? I wonder if a similar center
> existed in Monroeville Mall. Another interesting thing was that before both the
> Lazarus and the Kaufmann's got third floors, the elevators already had a third
> floor button. Was there already a third floor that was used as storage? I
> noticed that externally, when the third floors were added, there was no change.
The first floor of the professional complex was the second floor of the mall. From there
you went down, so two levels of offices were crammed into the first floor of the mall.
We realized that something was strange the first time we were there. Whatever doctor
or dentist we were seeing was on the third floor, yet after we left the office we looked
up and didn't see anything sticking up from the mall. The next time we were there, we
asked. Since you took the elevator, you really didn't realize there was anything
strange at first.
Dyche Anderson
Alan Hamilton
wrote:
>In article <19991123202144...@ng-fv1.aol.com>, GeneJYao
><gene...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> I wonder where the sculpture is now? Probably in the trash heap. To me, it
>> doesn't represent "Pittsburgh Reflections". Rather, it represents the
>> tackiness
>> of the late 70's and early 80's - just like those cherry-shaped lamps within
>> C3
>> Mall. Speaking of mall fixtures, does anyone know why the malls have generally
>> gotten rid of the fountains and exotic bird cages that used to be so prevalent
>> in malls?
>
>This is sliding a tad off-topic, but I'm not complaining. As to the
>end of the fountains and birds, I imagine some of the leasing agents
>got the word from their attorneys that they are a potential liability
>(not to mention a maintenance drain).
They also tend to not get the maintenance they need, and get rather
scummy. The Metrocenter mall in Phoenix replaced one of its fountains
with water cannon show that shoots jets of water up to the roof.
--
/
/ * / Alan Hamilton
* * al...@primenet.com
Arizona Roads -- http://www.primenet.com/~alanh/road/
No ads, popups or watermarks ever
GeneJYao
>Since you took the elevator, you really didn't realize there was anything
>strange at first.
Were the elevators also configured so that when you pressed the "Up" button to
go up to the "Third Floor", you actually got an elevator that went down to the
third floor?
Dyche Anderson
YES!
Dyche Anderson
Jeff Kitsko
>gotten rid of the fountains and exotic bird cages that used to be so
>prevalent
>in malls?
The smell probably, especially when they have just been cleaned. Whooooo,
smells like a Clorox factory. When Westmoreland Mall was redone back in the
early 1990s, the construction company removed the fountains in front of Sears
and The Bon Ton, redid the one at center court and changed the one at
Kaufmann's. But the did add one in front of the JCPenny's in the new wing.
Greengate Mall used to have a bird cage over a fountain in front of Montgomery
Ward's years ago, then they tore it out when they made that area a food court.
Good idea :).
ze...@magicnet.net
that Greengate was pretty empty..has it improved any? Is Westmorland
healthy?
----------
In article <19991128182051...@ng-cg1.aol.com>,
ze...@magicnet.net
glass elevator in the ad..it was shortly after it opened...
----------
In article <19991128213744...@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
jjki...@aol.comNOI-99 (Jeff Kitsko) wrote:
>>I heard a while back
>>that Greengate was pretty empty..has it improved any?
>
> And getting more empty by the minute since Lazarus closed.
>
>>Is Westmorland
>>healthy?
>
> Oh yeah, Old Navy just opened and some others have moved around. It has to be
> at 98% capacity.
>
> On a side note, I am older than Westmoreland Mall by a few months.
Jeff Kitsko
apri...@my-deja.com
Well the new county government may help cause this to happen; however
the last borough to be annexed by the city of Pittbsurgh was in the
1920's I believe.
I am honestly surprised that Brentwood hasn't become part of the city,
or Baldwin Borough hasn't given up part of it's land along the Mon river
to the city.
If a town is frist to go to Pittsburgh, I think it would be Brentwood
>
--
Adam Prince
"Merge Here...Take your turn"
---PennDot
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
apri...@my-deja.com
Dyche Anderson <dy...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> GeneJYao wrote:
<snip>
> Allegheny County's problem is too many incorporated towns. While I
doubt that a
> county-wide
> consolidation is the proper solution, I will whole-heartedly agree
that many of the
> smaller
> communities would be wise to give up their independence, and merge
into new communities,
> which should have a new name - or go back into their original
townships, where they
> still exist and are contiguous. Allegheny County has something like
130 municipalities,
> with 16 of them having populations under 1000, 70 with populations
under 5000, and 102
> of them with populations under 10,000 (comprising only 30.08% of the
county). Most of
> these small municipalities are boroughs.
Good Point, Plus this is SWPA we are talking about. They are against
anything regional. The boroughs and townships are to provinicial and
stubborn.
On a side not there is a small movement for either the creation of a new
county or third-class city in the Mon Valley. This would stretch from
Elizabeth down to Brownsville. I would be in favor of a new county.
>
> Just to compare, I looked at Wayne County, Michigan (Detroit), where I
live. Wayne County
> has 2.1 million people, and 43 municipalities in a land area 100 sq mi
smaller than
> Allegheny
> County. Only eight municipalities - 7 cities and 1 village - had 1998
populations under
> 10,000.
>
> Dyche Anderson
>
--
apri...@my-deja.com
gene...@aol.com (GeneJYao) wrote:
Actually, Century 3 is now starting to look like South Hills Village it
has many of the trendy clothing stores including the only area mall with
an Old Navy although right up the hill in Century Square there is one
too. Lazarus moved out and Kaufmann's will be putting as furniture
store in the former location. The first kind in the region
apri...@my-deja.com
gene...@aol.com (GeneJYao) wrote:
> zeno wrote:
>
> >What has happened to the Century III Mall? A lot of empty stores?...
>
> No, it is still alive. However, it has definitely seen better
days. The
> Gimbel's closed down (as did the chain) and became separated into a TJ
Maxx and
> a Marshalls (the Marshalls later closed down and became a Wickes
Furniture
> store). The other stores in Century III seem to have missed out on
90's
> make-overs that their sister stores in other malls have gotten. Then,
the final
> insult came when Lazarus (which took over from Horne's which took over
from
> Montgomery Ward) closed down - to be replaced by a Kauffmann's
furniture store.
> Apparently, that branch of Lazarus was their least profitable metro
Pittsburgh
> store. Also, the mall went through a make-over in the mid-90's that,
in my
> opinion, made it look worse.
Sorry Gene, I have to defend the Mon Valley here. Century 3 is
returning on an upswing. Not as great as it's early years buit better.
The mall is much brighter now. C'mon, you have to remember how dark
that place was. The yare patrolling the parking lots more. And they
have changed the bus routes in and around the mall.
The reason why Lazarus did not do well was it's location in the mall.
It was in the extreme back corner of the mall and they thought with the
proximity of South Hills Village that it would be fine to cshut the
store down.
Century 3 is not dead. A ctually, it was a mall that catered to the
people of the area it serveed. The Mid-Mon vValley and it also relies
heavily on bus traffic from McKeesport, Duquesne, Clairton and now
Oakland. PATransit has introduced a bus from Pitt to Century 3 and the
new mini-bus routes actually ties in the South Hills region to the mall.
So PAT has also helped the mall in tough times
BCBA
It required a two-thirds majority of total votes and a two-thirds
majority of the individual govermental districts. Pgh voters were for
it. Most of the smaller towns were for it. The cities Duquensne,
Clairton, McKeesport (all doing well at that time) were against it, as
were most of the boroughs. So although the measure received a two-thirds
majority in total votes, it failed to get a two-thirds by districts.
There are more details in a book called "Pittsburgh: Forge of the
Nation" at the library.
--bruce
Jeff Kitsko
>Elizabeth down to Brownsville. I would be in favor of a new county.
Ugh, a new county? And a new area code to go with it?
Jeff Kitsko
>store in the former location. The first kind in the region
The first? There will be one going in at the former location of the Carmike IV
Cinemas in Westmoreland Mall. Funny, almost 10 years after they got rid of the
furniture department in the main store.
ze...@magicnet.net
route, that it does not go through downtown. PAT needs to wake up to the
times and get more cross-town routes. Back in the old days they had some
nice cross-town troley routes..one from the east end to the Mon valley that
my grandfather took to work in the 40s.
----------
ze...@magicnet.net
closed now? If so, I sure hope they do not tear it down..some beautiful
stone work, etc.
----------
In article <19991129162108...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
jjki...@aol.comNOI-99 (Jeff Kitsko) wrote:
>>This would stretch from
>>Elizabeth down to Brownsville. I would be in favor of a new county.
>
> Ugh, a new county? And a new area code to go with it?
>
GeneJYao
>I am honestly surprised that Brentwood hasn't become part of the city,
>or Baldwin Borough hasn't given up part of it's land along the Mon river
>to the city.
It would seem that it would be in Baldwin's benefit to do this since having
their cops patrol Carson St. and Beck's Run Road when the rest of Balwin has
nothing to do with those streets just doesn't make sense. I imagine that when
Pittsburgh annexed that peninsula of land between the two sections of Baldwin,
Baldwin agreed only with the stipulation that it get to keep its riverfront
property (with the Becks Run Road corridor as a connector). I still don't
understand why the city of Pittsburgh annexed that penninsula of land, however.
>If a town is frist to go to Pittsburgh, I think it would be Brentwood
I doubt if Brentwood would allow itself to be annexed. Brentwood is populated
by staunch anti-city people who moved out of the city for various reasons
(schools, suburban flight, fear of crime, taxes, etc.). I think the last thing
they want to have happen is for the city to annex them back in. I can
definitely see places like Ingram, Crafton, McKees Rocks, Wilkinsburg, Etna,
Millvale, the Braddocks, the Homesteads, Munhall, Whitaker, etc. being annexed,
however, since those small boroughs have sort of out-lived their capacity for
independence and could definitely use being annexed by a larger maunicipality.
This, however, begs the question as to whether the city of Pittsburgh would
want to annex them.
GeneJYao
>On a side not there is a small movement for either the creation of a new
>county or third-class city in the Mon Valley. This would stretch from
>Elizabeth down to Brownsville. I would be in favor of a new county.
Interesting. I have noticed how the Mon Valley section of Allegheny County
seems to be separate in many ways from the rest of the county. They seem to
pledge more loyalty to McKeesport than to Pittsburgh. I can definitely envison
a new county ("Monongohela County"?) there.
ze...@magicnet.net
property that used to be active way back then.
----------
In article <19991129195546...@ng-cf1.aol.com>, gene...@aol.com
BCBA
>
> Speaking of counties..is the old jail next to the Alegheny Court House
> closed now? If so, I sure hope they do not tear it down..some beautiful
> stone work, etc.
>
to tour it on it's last day. (even empty of prisoners, it scared my kids
nearly to tears) it has been closed and they're refurbishing it as
offices. They've knocked a couple holes in the outside yard wall and
making other changes. But I think the preservationists have made enough
of an issue over the place, that it's pretty much safe.
--bruce
apri...@my-deja.com
new
> >county or third-class city in the Mon Valley. This would stretch
from
> >Elizabeth down to Brownsville. I would be in favor of a new county.
>
> Interesting. I have noticed how the Mon Valley section of Allegheny
County
> seems to be separate in many ways from the rest of the county. They
seem to
> pledge more loyalty to McKeesport than to Pittsburgh.
well the McKeesprt Daily News does.
I can definitely
envison
> a new county ("Monongohela County"?) there.
>
Although a staunch supporter of SWPA regionalism, I am in favor of the
new Mon Valley City or County. The specific area also is detachted from
Westmoreland, Washington, and Fayette Counties as well. Oddly the lay
of the land may possibly support this. McKeesport is not part of the
plan.
However, there is a commonwealth law that prohibits additional counties
being added in PA. This may change....
apri...@my-deja.com
> >Elizabeth down to Brownsville. I would be in favor of a new county.
>
>
> Jeff Kitsko
> Located on Unity TR 707 @ US 30 and PA 981
> Pennsylvania Highways: http://members.aol.com/pahighways/main.html
>
Nah just a new congressman who will want to call PA 43 I-99E
apri...@my-deja.com
city,
> >or Baldwin Borough hasn't given up part of it's land along the Mon
river
> >to the city.
>
> It would seem that it would be in Baldwin's benefit to do this
since having
> their cops patrol Carson St. and Beck's Run Road when the rest of
Balwin has
> nothing to do with those streets just doesn't make sense. I imagine
that when
> Pittsburgh annexed that peninsula of land between the two sections of
Baldwin,
> Baldwin agreed only with the stipulation that it get to keep its
riverfront
> property (with the Becks Run Road corridor as a connector). I still
don't
> understand why the city of Pittsburgh annexed that penninsula of land,
however.
>
This 'peninsula' also includes Hays. I agree Baldwin should allow
Pittsburgh to have the Riverfront land. It would allow the city to
develop it and grow.
> >If a town is frist to go to Pittsburgh, I think it would be Brentwood
>
> I doubt if Brentwood would allow itself to be annexed. Brentwood
is populated
> by staunch anti-city people who moved out of the city for various
reasons
> (schools, suburban flight, fear of crime, taxes, etc.). I think the
last thing
> they want to have happen is for the city to annex them back in. I can
> definitely see places like Ingram, Crafton, McKees Rocks, Wilkinsburg,
Etna,
> Millvale, the Braddocks, the Homesteads, Munhall, Whitaker, etc. being
annexed,
> however, since those small boroughs have sort of out-lived their
capacity for
> independence and could definitely use being annexed by a larger
maunicipality.
> This, however, begs the question as to whether the city of Pittsburgh
would
> want to annex them.
Good point, my parents teach at Brentwood and that is true the residents
of that community do tend to be in their own seperate world. I know
that city and Millvale have had partnerships in building hte rail trail
through there. Could a rail trail be the start of annexation. But
seriously, Millvale and Etna are part of the Shaler S.D. and wouldn't
Shaler Township and Reserve Township have to vote on whether or not to
let them go???
apri...@my-deja.com
ze...@magicnet.net wrote:
> I presume this new PAT Oakland Century 3 route is a sort of cross town
> route, that it does not go through downtown. PAT needs to wake up to
the
> times and get more cross-town routes. Back in the old days they had
some
> nice cross-town troley routes..one from the east end to the Mon valley
that
> my grandfather took to work in the 40s.
Yeah Pat is introducingthis my the use of Mini-buses in the west Hills
East Hills, Mon Valley and now the South Hills. The South Hills was a
result of the abandonment of the 47D Drake Trolley Line.
Turning the conversation to PAT and adding light rail to the mix. The
Overbrook line will have construction begin in 2000. This will include
a new span over PA 51 at Whited St. They tore town the old one in 1997.
I believe that span predated Saw Mill Run Blvd. The line will be
independent of the South Busway. I believe completion is slated for
2004?
Interesting thing if Jim Roddey would hvae gotten the transit tax in the
80s passed. Pittsburgh oculd have light rail onthe East Busway and
prolly on the 2nd Ave. Trail to the mon valley the old PAT Train route.
Imagine how much easier traffic could be if this could have happened.
I think Roddey will be good for getting road and transportation
projects moving in Allegheny County.
ze...@magicnet.net
So where is the new jail? I heard somewhere that it may be on the "bluff"
area, near Duquesne University....
And why did they think they needed a new one? Some judges order from
overcrowding? Just a hunch....
----------
In article <3843EC...@prisma-graphicdesign.com>, BCBA
ze...@magicnet.net
building built in the 19th century anywhere in the US. That is a
compliment...it should be preserved....
BCBA
the Smithfield St Bridge were the only two world-class structures in
Pittsburgh...but them's fightin' words :-)
BCBA
bounded by the Tenth St and Liberty Bridges and Second Av and I-376. In
fact the Parkway, and its high separation between its elevated lanes and
river level lanes has served as a line of defense against escapes.
Broken legs and all.
and yes, overcrowding and judge's order. it's almost full again... i
suppose they "always get their man" but now he may have to sleep on the
indoor basketball courts.
ze...@magicnet.net wrote:
>
> So where is the new jail? I heard somewhere that it may be on the "bluff"
> area, near Duquesne University....
>
> And why did they think they needed a new one? Some judges order from
> overcrowding? Just a hunch....
BCBA
apri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <19991129195908...@ng-cf1.aol.com>,
> gene...@aol.com (GeneJYao) wrote:
> > aprince27 wrote:
> >
> > >On a side not there is a small movement for either the creation of a
> new
> > >county or third-class city in the Mon Valley. This would stretch
> from
> > >Elizabeth down to Brownsville. I would be in favor of a new county.
> >
> > Interesting. I have noticed how the Mon Valley section of Allegheny
> County
> > seems to be separate in many ways from the rest of the county. They
> seem to
> > pledge more loyalty to McKeesport than to Pittsburgh.
>
> well the McKeesprt Daily News does.
>
> I can definitely
> envison
> > a new county ("Monongohela County"?) there.
> >
>
> Although a staunch supporter of SWPA regionalism, I am in favor of the
> new Mon Valley City or County. The specific area also is detachted from
> Westmoreland, Washington, and Fayette Counties as well. Oddly the lay
> of the land may possibly support this. McKeesport is not part of the
> plan.
>
> However, there is a commonwealth law that prohibits additional counties
> being added in PA. This may change....
>
> --
> Adam Prince
>
> "Merge Here...Take your turn"
> ---PennDot
>
GeneJYao
>The cities Duquensne, Clairton, McKeesport >(all doing well at that time) were
against it, >as were most of the boroughs. So although >the measure received a
two-thirds
>majority in total votes, it failed to get a two->thirds by districts.
Geez, so close and yet no cigar! I bet Duquense, Clairton, and McKeesport wish
they could have turned back the hands of time and voted for metro government.
Just think of what a big difference that would have made. For starters, instead
of being a city of less than 350,000, Pittsburgh would have been a city of 1.2
million, making it 8th largest in the nation today instead of 40-something-th.
This isn't as superficial as it sounds. Many civic boosters have been able to
lure people and businesses to their cities by falunting larger populations.
Also, this would ahve gotten rid of all the ridiculous Balkanization of
governments in Allegheny County. I think Allegheny County leads the nation (or
is very close to it) when it comes to number of municipalities within a county.
If there are counties with more municipalities, they probably also have a much
larger population.
GeneJYao
>Turning the conversation to PAT and adding >light rail to the mix. The
Overbrook line will >have construction begin in 2000.
I don't know why PAT is wasting money on this. The Beechview line already
serves the South Hill adequately (not great, but adequate). They ought to
instead build a line out to Oakland and then to Squirrel Hill.
GeneJYao
South Line - Runs along the 42S line with a branch using the 42L line. All
unnecessary stops should be eliminated, leaving mainly the park and ride
stations. Where the line crosses a major road, it should go over or under. The
section through Beechview should be made underground - it significantly slows
down the ride. The Overbrook line and the Drake lines should be abandoned. I
don't know why PAT wants to revive Drake since it had very few passengers after
42S was built.
North Line - Runs out from both Gateway Center and Penn Park stations in a loop
through the North Side. Possible future extensions further noth - but I can't
think of many places in the North Hills with enough density to justify rail.
Most likely, this will just be a loop extension of the Downtown subway.
East Line - Runs along the Mon River trail to Oakland and then under Forbes
Avenue through Oakland and to Squirrel Hill.
GeneJYao
>i hear it's even world-famous...some would >think that the Courthouse and
>the Smithfield St Bridge were the only two >world-class structures in
>Pittsburgh...but them's fightin' words :-)
I always found the Courthouse to be rather dreary. I also found the Carnegie
Institute to be dreary - especially when it was all black with soot. In fact I
find most of the older Carnegie libraries in SWPA to be dreary. There's just
something about the Gothic Revival architecture. Its not true gothic - like the
Heinz Chapel in Oakland - its sort of spooky gothic, as if the place were
haunted.
I think the best structure in Pittsburgh is PPG - it is still unique among
skyscrpaers around the world. Yes, it is gothic, but it is more truely gothic.
Jeff Kitsko
I included light rail on my Pittsburgh Transportation Planning Map that the
participants of the last SW PA MTR meeting got to see.
I had one going out to Robinson Towne Centre and then to the airport.