NJ Tpk--off peak EZPASS discounts--proposed elimination
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
who got their pass out of state.
(Not mentioned whether bi-state authorities count as in-state or out
of state. There are several serving NJ.)
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/nj_turnpike_authority_to_hold.html
IMHO this is a stupid idea. the idea of offpeak discounts is to
encourage travel during off peak--less congested--time periods.
Eliminating the discount eliminates the motivation. So, traffic gets
worse.
Is this the first step toward increasing tolls for out of state
motorists; ironically those who can't vote in the state?
Will other states do likewise?
Arif Khokar
Would that even be legal under the commerce clause of the US Constitution?
Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.
> Would that even be legal under the commerce clause of the US Constitution?
Since when has that been an issue?
James Robinson
It there's a problem, you'd think it would have been addressed by now,
since there are already many restrictions that in effect only grant
discounts to those who live within a particular state, or live in a
particular area:
"Seven authorities in the Northeast (Maine, the Massachusetts Turnpike,
the New Hampshire Turnpike, Rhode Island, NYC TBTA, New Jersey Turnpike,
and DelDOT) restrict their general discounts to their own respective
tagholders."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-ZPass
http://www.e-zpassny.com/en/about/plans.shtml
mkeen
>
> "Seven authorities in the Northeast (Maine, the Massachusetts Turnpike,
> the New Hampshire Turnpike, Rhode Island, NYC TBTA, New Jersey Turnpike,
> and DelDOT) restrict their general discounts to their own respective
> tagholders."
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-ZPasshttp://www.e-zpassny.com/en/about/plans.shtml
The TBTA (MTA) started this volley in 2009 quietly removing the EZ
Pass discount from tagholders outside the New York EZ-Pass Service
Center. This Center covers accounts for TBTA, NYSTA, PANYNJ, and
NYSBA. I could be wrong but I think this was the first time an agency
ended reciprocity on a general EZ-Pass discount rather than some
special optional commuter plan that one signs up for separately. The
TBTA policy change was especially cruel for two reasons:
1) The TBTA cash toll is astoundingly higher than the EZ-Pass toll...
81% more on the Henry Hudson Bridge.
2) Many commuters in the New York/New Jersey area utilize several
different agencies' facilities. It would not be unusual for a daily
commuter to use the Turnpike, the Outerbridge, and the VZ Bridge. Or
maybe the Turnpike, the GWB, and the Throgs Neck.
It may now seriously make financial sense for a commuter to carry two
tags and switch them out while driving, a potentially dangerous
maneuver.
This follows a long history of New York and New Jersey sticking it to
each other with various commuter taxes and fees. Nobody should be
surprised over this.
M Keen
Ringwood NJ
Guy Olsen
> They want to eliminate them for 'out of state' drivers--those drivers
> who got their pass out of state.
>
> (Not mentioned whether bi-state authorities count as in-state or out
> of state. There are several serving NJ.)
>
>
> IMHO this is a stupid idea. the idea of offpeak discounts is to
> encourage travel during off peak--less congested--time periods.
> Eliminating the discount eliminates the motivation. So, traffic gets
> worse.
>
> Is this the first step toward increasing tolls for out of state
> motorists; ironically those who can't vote in the state?
>
> Will other states do likewise?
This is nothing but a blatant money grab by the NJTA. They have to
know that many NJ residents have NY E-ZPasses because NY implemented
ETC first -- and because there were early problems with NJ E-ZPass.
I hope Christie gives it the royal flush that it deserves.
Guy Olsen, PE(NJ), PTOE
rsh...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
don't hold your breath, NJ is desperate for money from any souce
why do you think he would disallow it from happening?
the state gas tax, and Transportation Trust Fund which is in
desperate need of a infusion of money are certainly not going to get
it from Christie
rsh...@gmail.com
> They want to eliminate them for 'out of state' drivers--those drivers
> who got their pass out of state.
>
> (Not mentioned whether bi-state authorities count as in-state or out
> of state. There are several serving NJ.)
>
>
> IMHO this is a stupid idea. the idea of offpeak discounts is to
> encourage travel during off peak--less congested--time periods.
> Eliminating the discount eliminates the motivation. So, traffic gets
> worse.
Just the opposite is going to happen. Congestion pricing is coming,
so that will be in effect just the opposite.
You will see a disincentive for travelling at peak hours
>
> Is this the first step toward increasing tolls for out of state
> motorists; ironically those who can't vote in the state?
>
umm, exactly how would this be implemented? different toll tickets
based on license plate?
> Will other states do likewise?
so when I go thru the gates on the DE and MD toll roads, they are
going to use license plate scanners to determine the toll?
actually not a bad idea
John Levine
>> motorists; ironically those who can't vote in the state?
>
>umm, exactly how would this be implemented? different toll tickets
>based on license plate?
There are already plenty of resident discounts, like the ones on the
Verrazano and Grand Island bridges. You get a special e-zpass plan
available only after you show that you live in the resident area.
Some of the discounts are pretty impressive, 9c rather than $1.00 per
trip in Grand Island.
I don't know why anyone thinks this is a new idea.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> > Is this the first step toward increasing tolls for out of state
> > motorists; ironically those who can't vote in the state?
>
> umm, exactly how would this be implemented? different toll tickets
> based on license plate?
As stated, where the EZPASS was issued.
An unanswered question is what happens with EZPASS's issued by bi-
state authorities, of which NJ has many (NJ-NY, NJ-PA (3), NY-Del).
rsh...@gmail.com
your post was about out of state vehicles, my assumtion was non eazy
pass vehicles
as John Levine says, there are plenty of out of state ezpass holders
that get charged premium rate out side their locale
why shouldn't NJ do the same?
I personally pay for convenience
btw, if the 8A merge is bad as it frequently is, I am not opposed to
using 130 and avoiding all tolls
on a slightly different subj, when the 6-9 wideining is finished, they
are saying 2014, I sincerely hope they has a serious congestion
pricing system with out of state vehicles paying a premium rate
Guy Olsen
> On May 8, 12:18 am, Guy Olsen <guypol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 3, 10:18 am, hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
> > > They want to eliminate them for 'out of state' drivers--those drivers
> > > who got their pass out of state.
>
> > > (Not mentioned whether bi-state authorities count as in-state or out
> > > of state. There are several serving NJ.)
>
> > >http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/nj_turnpike_authority_to_hol...
>
> > > IMHO this is a stupid idea. the idea of offpeak discounts is to
> > > encourage travel during off peak--less congested--time periods.
> > > Eliminating the discount eliminates the motivation. So, traffic gets
> > > worse.
>
> > > Is this the first step toward increasing tolls for out of state
> > > motorists; ironically those who can't vote in the state?
>
> > > Will other states do likewise?
>
> > This is nothing but a blatant money grab by the NJTA. They have to
> > know that many NJ residents have NY E-ZPasses because NY implemented
> > ETC first -- and because there were early problems with NJ E-ZPass.
>
> > I hope Christie gives it the royal flush that it deserves.
>
> > Guy Olsen, PE(NJ), PTOE- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> don't hold your breath, NJ is desperate for money from any souce
>
> why do you think he would disallow it from happening?
>
Because the large number of NJ residents (ie, voters) with NY-based E-
ZPasses will figure out that they're about to get screwed, and let him
know about it.
deanej
The reason for the discount is because it costs a lot less to collect
tolls electronically. This doesn't magically change if someone has ez-
pass from a different agency. States shouldn't discriminate based on
what state someone is from.
Note: this argument doesn't apply to stuff like colleges. In that
case, the cost is the same for both, the state just subsidizes it for
in-state residents. In the case of ex-pass discounts, the cost is
actually lower.
Tom Mogadore
>
> on a slightly different subj, when the 6-9 wideining is finished, they
> are saying 2014, I sincerely hope they has a serious congestion
> pricing system with out of state vehicles paying a premium rate
Why penalise out of state drivers?
Jimmy
> James Robinson <wasc...@212.com> wrote:
> > "Seven authorities in the Northeast (Maine, the Massachusetts Turnpike,
> > the New Hampshire Turnpike, Rhode Island, NYC TBTA, New Jersey Turnpike,
> > and DelDOT) restrict their general discounts to their own respective
> > tagholders."
Rhode Island goes one step further. To get the discounted 83 cent
toll, you need an account with them, *and* you have to be a Rhode
Island resident. Everyone else pays $4. It's the only residence-
based discount that isn't limited to the neighborhoods immediately
adjacent to the bridge.
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-ZPasshttp://www.e-zpassny.com/en/about...
>
> The TBTA (MTA) started this volley in 2009 quietly removing the EZ
> Pass discount from tagholders outside the New York EZ-Pass Service
> Center. This Center covers accounts for TBTA, NYSTA, PANYNJ, and
> NYSBA. I could be wrong but I think this was the first time an agency
> ended reciprocity on a general EZ-Pass discount rather than some
> special optional commuter plan that one signs up for separately.
No, the Mass Pike started the trend several years earlier, followed by
Maine and then New Hampshire.
> The TBTA policy change was especially cruel for two reasons:
>
> 1) The TBTA cash toll is astoundingly higher than the EZ-Pass toll...
> 81% more on the Henry Hudson Bridge.
Well, the difference wasn't so big when they first eliminated the
discount for out-of-state tagholders. Until December 2010, the rates
were $2.09 in-state E-ZPass, $3 cash or other E-ZPass, or a 44%
surcharge.
I suspect the surcharge is higher on this bridge in anticipation of
the project to go cashless, so they can cover the costs of sending
bills in the mail. (Unless they'll surcharge photo tolls even more
when that happens.)
They took the first step of removing the gate arms and installing a
photo enforcement system. Does anyone know if they charge a fine if
you have a misread with a valid E-ZPass with the license plate
correctly registered to the account? Some agencies have the nerve to
do this.
> 2) Many commuters in the New York/New Jersey area utilize several
> different agencies' facilities. It would not be unusual for a daily
> commuter to use the Turnpike, the Outerbridge, and the VZ Bridge. Or
> maybe the Turnpike, the GWB, and the Throgs Neck.
>
> It may now seriously make financial sense for a commuter to carry two
> tags and switch them out while driving, a potentially dangerous
> maneuver.
It's not that dangerous. It can easily be done with one hand. But I
agree that agency-specific discounts are unfair.
Jimmy
mkeen
>
> An unanswered question is what happens with EZPASS's issued by bi-
> state authorities, of which NJ has many (NJ-NY, NJ-PA (3), NY-Del).
The answer to this excellent question is found this excellent article
from The Record:
http://www.northjersey.com/news/business/moneys_worth/121231538_Proposal_to_end_driver_discount_is_unfair.html
What it says is that North Jersey commuters are getting screwed
because PANYNJ is aligned with the New York EZ-Pass Service Center
while all of the South Jersey bi-state agencies use the NJ
consortium. So PANYNJ tag holders would lose any turnpike discount
while a DRBA or DRPA holder would not. (For the sake of this
discussion, I'll throw DRJTBC in with South Jersey even though it's
more accurately a West Jersey thing.)
M Keen
Ringwood, NJ
mkeen
Jimmy, thanks for setting me straight on the discount history. Still,
I think the proximity of the New York metro agencies to each other
makes the TBTA move a significant milestone.
As for swapping tags while driving, I agree that on the scale of
dangerous activities it's low on the list. However, there is also the
danger of getting double-tolled if you don't properly stow the other
tag in its crypt.
All in all, I don't think the agencies should be enacting policies
that encourage the carrying of multiple tags in a vehicle.
I wonder what ever happened to the pilot project of allowing EZ Pass
to be used as a payment method for commercial establishments. I read
that there was a trial of this at a Long Island McDonalds drive-thru
some time ago. It would seem that this would be a more acceptable way
for the agencies to raise revenue. The merchants gladly give up a
small percentage to credit card issuers; wouldn't they be happy to
give a similar percentage to a toll agency to offer an easier way for
patrons to pay?
M Keen
Ringwood, NJ
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> As for swapping tags while driving, I agree that on the scale of
> dangerous activities it's low on the list. However, there is also the
> danger of getting double-tolled if you don't properly stow the other
> tag in its crypt.
I suspect most motorists would make the switch while in the
interchange. That's dangerous because of the curving ramps, merging
traffic, and decision points, and the last place a motorist should
allow themselves to be distracted. One has to be extra defensive in
interchanges because many errant motorists will suddenly stop trying
to decide their route, or will dart out without yielding, others go
flying through passing other motorists.
> All in all, I don't think the agencies should be enacting policies
> that encourage the carrying of multiple tags in a vehicle.
Absolutely?
> I wonder what ever happened to the pilot project of allowing EZ Pass
> to be used as a payment method for commercial establishments. I read
> that there was a trial of this at a Long Island McDonalds drive-thru
> some time ago. It would seem that this would be a more acceptable way
> for the agencies to raise revenue. The merchants gladly give up a
> small percentage to credit card issuers; wouldn't they be happy to
> give a similar percentage to a toll agency to offer an easier way for
> patrons to pay?
McDonald's, CVS, and Wawa (convenience stores) accept the Chase
"blink" card which is a touch-credit card. Very fast for those kinds
of transactions.
But accepting EZP at a McDonald's drive thru pickup window seems to
make sense. Since the motorist is stopped getting their food, the
pass reader device need not be sophisticated.
John Levine
>> to be used as a payment method for commercial establishments.
As far as I can tell, they tried it and stopped. E-Zpass Plus
lets you pay for parking at a bunch of airports, the city
garage in Atlantic City, and the NY State Fair. They take
>McDonald's, CVS, and Wawa (convenience stores) accept the Chase
>"blink" card which is a touch-credit card. Very fast for those kinds
>of transactions.
That's contactless EMV, known as Mastercard Paypass, Visa paywave, and
Amex Express Pay. It's a different technology. Works at Wegmans,
too.
>But accepting EZP at a McDonald's drive thru pickup window seems to
>make sense. Since the motorist is stopped getting their food, the
>pass reader device need not be sophisticated.
It can't be much simpler than the one in a toll booth if it's
going to read a Mark IV transponder. I don't know whether the
issue was the cost of the setup, or more likely the financial
arrangements of who charged who how much per transaction.
R's,
John
rsh...@gmail.com
look at the location of the NJ Tpk, it is the primary route n-s for
interstate traffic
a significant percentage of tolls are paid by out of state vehicles
that is one of the big arguments for keeping tolls to begin with
I am sure you know what congestion pricing is, if out of state
vehicles choose to use the road at high volume times, they should pay
a premium rate, or they can go at another time
I am sure other states will do the same thing
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> > All in all, I don't think the agencies should be enacting policies
> > that encourage the carrying of multiple tags in a vehicle.
>
> Absolutely?
That should read "absolutely."
deanej
If you're driving any kind of distance interstate, you hit the state
when you hit the state. Nobody in their right mind plans their whole
trip based on when they hit a particular state.
An out of state driver doesn't contribute more to congestion than an
in-state driver. It's idiocy like this that cause people to hate New
Jersey.
Jimmy
> The answer to this excellent question is found this excellent article
>
> What it says is that North Jersey commuters are getting screwed
> because PANYNJ is aligned with the New York EZ-Pass Service Center
> while all of the South Jersey bi-state agencies use the NJ
> consortium. So PANYNJ tag holders would lose any turnpike discount
> while a DRBA or DRPA holder would not.
Wow, I can't believe that's the proposal. It's totally going to
backfire.
Is this an oversight, or does the technology prevent them from giving
a discount to just one agency from a different service center?
By the way, can anyone explain the signs in this picture about how to
pay at a GSP ramp toll when it's unattended?
http://media.nj.com/ledgerupdates_impact/photo/9433967-large.jpg
I can't figure out what E-ZPass holders are supposed to do. It says
"when no collector on duty/no change/E-ZPass". Does that mean you
have to pay with coins even if you have an E-ZPass? Or that you can
use your E-ZPass, but only in the exact change lane, which appears to
have a "pizza box" E-ZPass reader?
Jimmy
rsh...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
and they have to love our relatively cheap gas
the whole idea about congestive pricing is to get them out of their
vehicles and onto transit, you know that, or at least consider the bus
or train
If they are on te NJ tpk at high traffic times, they are likely going
to NYC, otherwise likely they would find a way to bypass the whole
thing
Good grief, man, there are resident subsides for virtually everything,
why shouldn't NJ have one for tolls?
mkeen
> mkeen <inks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The answer to this excellent question is found this excellent article
> > from The Record:http://www.northjersey.com/news/business/moneys_worth/121231538_Propo...
>
> > What it says is that North Jersey commuters are getting screwed
> > because PANYNJ is aligned with the New York EZ-Pass Service Center
> > while all of the South Jersey bi-state agencies use the NJ
> > consortium. So PANYNJ tag holders would lose any turnpike discount
> > while a DRBA or DRPA holder would not.
>
> Wow, I can't believe that's the proposal. It's totally going to
> backfire.
>
> Is this an oversight, or does the technology prevent them from giving
> a discount to just one agency from a different service center?
>
> By the way, can anyone explain the signs in this picture about how to
>
> I can't figure out what E-ZPass holders are supposed to do. It says
> "when no collector on duty/no change/E-ZPass". Does that mean you
> have to pay with coins even if you have an E-ZPass? Or that you can
> use your E-ZPass, but only in the exact change lane, which appears to
> have a "pizza box" E-ZPass reader?
>
> Jimmy
I think what the sign is trying to say is if no collector is on duty
AND you don't have [exact] change AND you have NO EZPass then you
should use the Exact Change lane. A much better way to sign the plaza
would be to label the lanes "EZ Pass Only" and "All Others". Then a
sign in the "All Others" lane could explain what to do if you have no
EZ Pass and no exact change.
Back to the NY/NJ thing, there is no technological reason why
different agencies sharing the same EZ Pass service center can't have
different pricing policies. By way of example, of the four agencies
that use the New York service center only one (PANYNJ) charges a
monthly account fee. I can also recall a time when some agencies in
the New Jersey system charged a monthly fee while others did not. So
it would be technically possible for the turnpike discount to be
extended to PANYNJ accounts and not, for example, to TBTA accounts.
Here is one interesting difference between the NY and NJ service
centers. In the NJ system, anyone can apply for an account directly
to the agency with which they want it set up. In the NY system,
everything is handled through a single web site and application. The
average user won't know what agency's tag they'll get until it
arrives. In fact, the choice is made by the mailing address of the
applicant. In order to NOT get a PANYNJ account, you need to have
your tags mailed somewhere in New York State. Once you have your
account you can edit the address to be whatever you like.
M Keen
Ringwood, NJ
rsh...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
A while back, there was a posting about this exact same thing. What
that poster said was the NYS Thwy Auth required its ezpass tags only
be available to NYS residents. All others got PANY&NJ tags.
Because this is where I got caught up in this. I initially applied
for a Thwy tag at the old Spring Valley ezpass ctr. This was pre NJ
ezpass and I wanted it for the Thrwy as I was going to be in NYS quite
a bit that year
I got a letter and a bag telling me not to use it, to return the tag
and I would subsequently receive a PANY&NJ tag.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> the whole idea about congestive pricing is to get them out of their
> vehicles and onto transit, you know that, or at least consider the bus
> or train
Are there any plans for "congestion pricing" in NJ or environs? I'm
not aware of any, indeed, any such proposals have been shot down like
a lead balloon.
Remember what happened to Corzine when he proposed higher NJ Tpk
tolls. Near riots at town meetings. Remember what happens when they
propose NYC East River tolls. Massive protest.
NJ will not get 'congestion pricing'.
Tom Mogadore
One of the major choke points on the NJTP isn't tolled, anyway-the IH 95 leading into the GWB-and in many cases that congestion is a result of problems further up the road-namely on the Cross-Bronx Expressway, which the NJTA can do sod all about.
Perhaps if NJ had built the 'missing' section of the IH 95 this would be less of an issue-That's hard to say.
Janna Chernetz
This is not a done deal yet! The Turnpike is accepting written
comments Friday until 5pm (5/13). You should call the NJTA and get
the email address to send in your comments.
rsh...@gmail.com
> On May 11, 11:23 pm, "rshe...@gmail.com" <rshe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > the whole idea about congestive pricing is to get them out of their
> > vehicles and onto transit, you know that, or at least consider the bus
> > or train
>
> Are there any plans for "congestion pricing" in NJ or environs? I'm
> not aware of any, indeed, any such proposals have been shot down like
> a lead balloon.
>
> Remember what happened to Corzine when he proposed higher NJ Tpk
> tolls. Near riots at town meetings.
because it was in actuality a tax, not just a toll inc. It was a
horrific toll inc, not in any way related to funding the tpk or
transportation in general
then his idea for financing the ARC Tunnels was for the Tpk to come up
withe the money, and you know what Christie did to that
Remember what happens when they
> propose NYC East River tolls. Massive protest.
>
and what do you suppose is going to happen when one of those E River
Brs gets closed by the state DOT because they are unsafe? And please
don't say it cannot happen because it can and it WILL.
those brs are a century old and not in the best of shape currently
> NJ will not get 'congestion pricing'.
"not", "ever" a very long time, and if you are in the prediction
game, why did you not accurately predict $100+ a barrel oil?
and bear in mind this, the NJTP has bond convenents that REQUIRE toll
inc based on certain incomes and revenues
iow, if those do not reach certain levels the tolls MUST inc
For this you can thank former Gov Kean and what was to be the
extensive widening of the Tpk from exit 9 north
rsh...@gmail.com
> This strikes me as a specific punishment aimed at out of state drivers who just happen to be on the NJTP at the wrong time. While a local will know when to avoid specific sections of the road at specific times, someone from way out of state probably will not; and I don't see the NJTA taking any measures to possibly restrict or reduce traffic and reduce revenue.
>
frankly anyone from "way out of state" that is travelling the NJTP
from stem to stern really needs a good road atlas
anyone coming from VA that does not realize 81 to 78 to 287n is so
much the better toll free route then plying the tpk deserves what they
get
further if those "way out of state" drivers are so very ignorant that
they find themselves on the tpk at say 4PM again they should be paying
an exorbinant toll
and really, here I thought you were the electronics/gadget geek of mtr
there are means are there not of (a) determining the time from where
you are to where you might be at say 5PM?
also (b) if one is to be on the N JTP at say 5PM on a Weds, maybe look
at one of your said gadgets at 5PM on Tues and see where the traffic
problems might be
> One of the major choke points on the NJTP isn't tolled, anyway-the IH 95 leading into the GWB-and in many cases that congestion is a result of problems further up the road-namely on the Cross-Bronx Expressway, which the NJTA can do sod all about.
>
nor can it it ever be tolled, any more the the X-Westchester can be
Just because the Tpk controls and is responsible for it, does not mean
anything
NJDOT was completely unable to maintain this from I-80 to Fletcher Ave
in Ft Lee, and when Florio had a budget deficit in the early 90's, the
NJTP was solid gold.
So he got them to give NJ $400M to balance the budget in return the
NJTP got this section of I-95. Immediately NJTP maint expenses went
up 9% with no inc in tolls
> Perhaps if NJ had built the 'missing' section of the IH 95 this would be less of an issue-That's hard to say.
thank your friends in Hopewell and Princeton Twp. They did squat to
restrict development but roads or heaven forbid transit,
fugeddaboutit
further, I doubt that const of the missing link would do anything for
the GWB that the completed section of 287 does not already do
you know full well the ONLY solution is to get people out of their
cars on onto transit
you also know full well, there is no way any new roads are going to
be built in the NY metro, who wants them and the cost makes them
untenable
Tom Mogadore
> On May 12, 8:24 am, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> Remember what happens when they
> > propose NYC East River tolls. Massive protest.
> >
>
> and what do you suppose is going to happen when one of those E River
> Brs gets closed by the state DOT because they are unsafe? And please
> don't say it cannot happen because it can and it WILL.
>
> those brs are a century old and not in the best of shape currently
>
Really? According to whom? I really don't think NYSDOT is ever going to close any East River bridge. They are not responsible for them. NYCDOT owns and operates the East River bridges(http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bridges/bridges.shtml). There are links on that page for the major bridges that lead to individual pages for each bridge that describe their state and ongoing construction projects in detail. http://goo.gl/7cyXv shows active work on the Brooklyn Bridge.
For a person who has been known to make claims about driving in and around NYC on a routine basis, you seem to have a lack of knowledge about certain things.
Tom Mogadore
> On May 12, 11:05 am, Tom Mogadore <ttm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > This strikes me as a specific punishment aimed at out of state drivers who just happen to be on the NJTP at the wrong time. While a local will know when to avoid specific sections of the road at specific times, someone from way out of state probably will not; and I don't see the NJTA taking any measures to possibly restrict or reduce traffic and reduce revenue.
> >
>
> frankly anyone from "way out of state" that is travelling the NJTP
> from stem to stern really needs a good road atlas
>
> anyone coming from VA that does not realize 81 to 78 to 287n is so
> much the better toll free route then plying the tpk deserves what they
> get
>
> further if those "way out of state" drivers are so very ignorant that
> they find themselves on the tpk at say 4PM again they should be paying
> an exorbinant toll
>
> and really, here I thought you were the electronics/gadget geek of mtr
>
> there are means are there not of (a) determining the time from where
> you are to where you might be at say 5PM?
>
Sure there are. But that doesn't mean that members of the general public are going to use them. Nor are they going to look for alternate routes. They will go with the easiest, most direct route.
>
>
> you know full well the ONLY solution is to get people out of their
> cars on onto transit
>
And how, pray tell are you going to do that? You are going to tell people they can't drive their cars? Let me know how that works out. Don't you drive a car for a living? Are you planning to start using transit in lieu of driving?
rsh...@gmail.com
> On Thursday, May 12, 2011 11:33:40 PM UTC-4, rsh...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On May 12, 8:24 am, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> > > On May 11, 11:23 pm, "rsh...@gmail.com" <rsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Remember what happens when they
> > > propose NYC East River tolls. Massive protest.
>
> > and what do you suppose is going to happen when one of those E River
> > Brs gets closed by the state DOT because they are unsafe? And please
> > don't say it cannot happen because it can and it WILL.
>
> > those brs are a century old and not in the best of shape currently
>
> Really? According to whom? I really don't think NYSDOT is ever going to close any East River bridge. They are not responsible for them.
but they do the mandatory 2yr br insp
and they are on the state hwy system so NYSDOT is ultimately
responsible
NYCDOT owns and operates the East River bridges(http://www.nyc.gov/
html/dot/html/bridges/bridges.shtml). There are links on that page for
the major bridges that lead to individual pages for each bridge that
describe their state and ongoing construction projects in
detail.http://goo.gl/7cyXvshows active work on the Brooklyn Bridge.
>
> For a person who has been known to make claims about driving in and around NYC on a routine basis, you seem to have a lack of knowledge about certain things.
who did the major maint and reconstruction on the Willy B and
Manhattan Brs over the last 30 yrs???
it was NOT NYC, reminder those two are on the state hwy system
you do realize those two have subways that cross them which put huge
stresses and strains on them
just because there are reconst projs listed by NYC does not mean they
are NYC projs
see who awarded the contracts
mkeen
> NJ will not get 'congestion pricing'.
Perhaps I'm obtuse, but isn't this entire thread about "off peak
EZPASS discounts"? And isn't that a form of congestion pricing?
M Keen
Ringwood, NJ
Tom Mogadore
rsh...@gmail.com
> > On May 12, 8:24 am, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> > > On May 11, 11:23 pm, "rsh...@gmail.com" <rsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Remember what happens when they
> > > propose NYC East River tolls. Massive protest.
>
> > and what do you suppose is going to happen when one of those E River
> > Brs gets closed by the state DOT because they are unsafe? And please
> > don't say it cannot happen because it can and it WILL.
>
> > those brs are a century old and not in the best of shape currently
>
>
> For a person who has been known to make claims about driving in and around NYC on a routine basis, you seem to have a lack of knowledge about certain things.
http://www.nymtc.org/Files/TIP_FFY2011-2015/docs/NYCTCC%20Draft%20Project%20Listings.pdf
NYSDOT X806.51 Installation of e-z pass readers
just a prelude of things to come there Tommie, just a prelude
and wtf do you care, you do not own a car nor do you drive in NYC
you should want tolling of NYC bridges as it would mean more money
for your subways and metro north
sometimes you are such a fucking ignoramus you even hurt yourself
rsh...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
again, you are talking like a fucking ignoramus
as fuel prices head north as well as other commodities, people are
already cutting their driving, as happened previously during your boy
GWB's presidency
you do have a short memory don't you????
no one will TELL them anything, but you make economic choices don 't
you????
I have told you before we just raise our rates, and consequently I
make more, so if gas goes to even $5 a gal I can still drive my
personal car to the cab co which is not that far
what happens is great for me a traffic goes down, which makes it
easier to get around and more people use taxis
rsh...@gmail.com
> You didn't bother looking at that link, did you? What part of 'owns and operates' is unclear to you? It's interesting how you talk about how Baltimore City owns it's interstates, but are unaware the same situation prevails in NYC. And just because a road carries a NY state route number does not mean it is owned and/or maintained by by the state. There are numerous county highways in Sullivan and Ulster Counties that have State Route numbers posted along them. Most state highways posted in cities(as per the NYS definition of a 'city') are maintained by the city with the state providing signage. NY is not the only state that does this-It's also true in New England and Pennsylvania.
what interstate hwy(expwy) in NYC is owned operated AND maintained by
NYC
go thru rhe TIP and find me ANY NYC const projs on any Expwy
NYSDOT is currently doing signs and bridges on a variety of expwys,
they are doing reconst in the SI Expwy
now compare that to Balt where MDSHA does nothing on any road or
expwy in Balt City
I have told you before Balt City gets 15% of the state's gas tax money
and the rest is up to them
rsh...@gmail.com
little tommie mogadore is so very, very scared as his little itty
bitty world is a changing
his precious gas is going north of $4 a gal, food is getting more exp
every day
poor, poor baby
Tom Mogadore
Tom Mogadore
> I have told you before we just raise our rates, and consequently I
> make more, so if gas goes to even $5 a gal I can still drive my
> personal car to the cab co which is not that far
>
So *you* will still be allowed to drive, while the rest of us are supposed to take transit.
Ralph Herman
(in article
<428dcddd-ee9c-4f87...@x1g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>):
https://www.nysdot.gov/regional-offices/region11/general-info
Any major construction project on any interstate highway in NYC, NYSDOT is
the lead agency (except fot the New England Thrwy, MTA and PA of NY & NJ
facilities). Some parkway projects are being done by NYCDOT, such as 7
bridges being replaced on the Belt Pkwy, see
www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/beltpkwybrgs_eng.pdf
A few decades ago The East River Bridges were NYSDOT owned for a short
period, but turned back to NYC. I believe at the time it was felt that NYC
would not have the funds to rehabilitate the bridges.
What is unusual is that Region 11 (NYC) all NYSDOT owned roadway maintenance
is done by NYCDOT crews and equipment. NYSDOT pays NYCDOT, and is in the
state budget.
Tom Mogadore
>
> What is unusual is that Region 11 (NYC) all NYSDOT owned roadway maintenance
> is done by NYCDOT crews and equipment. NYSDOT pays NYCDOT, and is in the
> state budget.
Which would lead the casual observer(that is, me) to think that NYCDOT is responsible for the Expressways. I really don't spend a great deal of time delving into these things, honestly, I have other priorities.
rsh...@gmail.com
no one is saying what you "HAVE" to do, like I said, you do make
economic decisions, don't you????
did someone point a gun at your head and force you to move to a place
with limited transit choices?????
deanej
You do know that some people love to drive and hate transit, right?
Why should we be penalized just because you don't like cars? All we
need to do is move to super-capacitor-based electric cars and a big
part of the oil problem will be solved.
Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.
Actually, all we have to do is drill holes in ground we own to solve the
oil problem for a long time. Build some nuclear power plants and
support structure and solve it for a long long time. (With some power
plants, your big capacitor thingy becomes a possibility.)
--
Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics
of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Infallibility, and the ability to
learn from their mistakes.
http://members.cox.net/larrysheldon/ (Adapted from Stephen Pinker)
Tom Mogadore
Tom Mogadore
> On May 14, 4:51 am, "rsh...@gmail.com" <rsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On May 13, 7:22 am, Tom Mogadore <ttm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Friday, May 13, 2011 1:27:37 AM UTC-4, rsh...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > I have told you before we just raise our rates, and consequently I
> > > > make more, so if gas goes to even $5 a gal I can still drive my
> > > > personal car to the cab co which is not that far
> >
> > > So *you* will still be allowed to drive, while the rest of us are supposed to take transit.
> >
> > no one is saying what you "HAVE" to do, like I said, you do make
> > economic decisions, don't you????
> >
> > did someone point a gun at your head and force you to move to a place
> > with limited transit choices?????
>
> You do know that some people love to drive and hate transit, right?
> Why should we be penalized just because you don't like cars? All we
> need to do is move to super-capacitor-based electric cars and a big
> part of the oil problem will be solved.
But you see, old Randy is 'special' and is entitled by whatever authority he assumes to do things you are not. You are supposed to pay more taxes, he is entitled to make TAX FREE MONEY. You are supposed to take transit, he's entitled to drive as he pleases. You couldn't find a better example of liberal hypocrisy if you tried.
Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.
> That's not what I said, now was it?
dunno. What did you say? Who said you said different? What did they
say you said.
Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.
inevitable typo):
> On 5/14/2011 10:23 AM, Tom Mogadore wrote:
>> That's not what I said, now was it?
>
> dunno. What did you say? Who said you said different? What did they say
> you said.
Tom Mogadore
> On 5/14/2011 10:23 AM, Tom Mogadore wrote:
> > That's not what I said, now was it?
>
> dunno. What did you say? Who said you said different? What did they
> say you said.
>
I said 'So [Randy] will still be allowed to drive, while the rest of us are supposed to take transit.'
And as usual, when his hypocrisy is pointed up, Randy starts randomly blibbering to try and divert attention from himself. Nothing new, really.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Not really, IMHO, To me, "Congestion pricing" is a more time- and
geographic- specific pricing program--more levels of pricing set for
specific times and places. In very high peak periods tolls would be
quite high.
Further, if the NJTPK proposal was to truly alleviate congestion, then
_all_ motorists would pay peak and off peak rates, not just state
residents. Indeed, out of staters may include long distance
travellers who might have more flexibility at when they could travel
than say an in-state resident who is commuting to work when his boss
tells him to.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> You didn't bother looking at that link, did you?
Tom, could you include the name and text of the person you are
replying to? In this post "you" is unclear.
Thanks.
Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.
I don't disagree (I don't read his stuff unless I blunder into reading
somebody quoting him). But a comment here out to have enough context to
let others know that it refers to cess-pit contents when that is the case.
Otherwise, private email is probably a better idea.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> > Remember what happened to Corzine when he proposed higher NJ Tpk
> > tolls. Near riots at town meetings.
>
> because it was in actuality a tax, not just a toll inc. It was a
> horrific toll inc, not in any way related to funding the tpk or
> transportation in general
Corzine pointed out that the toll increase would not be very much to
NJ residents since most used the turnpike for short distances as
compared to out of state drivers, and that was a good point.
> and what do you suppose is going to happen when one of those E River
> Brs gets closed by the state DOT because they are unsafe? And please
> don't say it cannot happen because it can and it WILL.
I attended a lecture recently on the NYC East River bridges and they
are in good shape. They already spent an awful lot of money to do a
major reconstruction. They improved upon the original design to have
more stability.
> > NJ will not get 'congestion pricing'.
> "not", "ever" a very long time, and if you are in the prediction
> game, why did you not accurately predict $100+ a barrel oil?
>
Attend local NJ community meetings, listen to the comments, and talk
to people. There are some politically unpopular things that will go
through, but others simply will not be tolerated by the voters.
As to high gasoline prices, the tipped out at $4/gallon and people cut
back on their driving. The speculators pulled out and the price is
falling.
> and bear in mind this, the NJTP has bond convenents that REQUIRE toll
> inc based on certain incomes and revenues
That has nothing to do with congestion pricing. All it means is that
the _total_ revenue meets a certain amount. How that revenue is
obtained--the actual tolls by interchange and time--does not matter.
A good congestion pricing system could _increase_ toll revenues by
making the turnpike easier to drive.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> What is unusual is that Region 11 (NYC) all NYSDOT owned roadway maintenance
> is done by NYCDOT crews and equipment. NYSDOT pays NYCDOT, and is in the
> state budget.
It is common for one unit of government that owns the roads to pay
another unit of government to maintain them. For instance, while the
state govt plows some state roads, in some places they pay the
municpality to plow the state roads in the town. This is more
efficient since the municipality has plows out already for the local
streets.
It works in reverse, too. Some very small municipalities that have no
road crew pay the state (or another muni) to do needed road work.
Sometimes a state unit will work on an Authority structure, and vice
versa.
There are also joint efforts where multiple government units are
involved.
Ralph Herman
(in article
<db6f6f25-1aeb-40b8...@glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com>):
No Tom, NYSDOT is responsible.
The property owner is responsible for their property, whether or not the
property owner contracts out for servicing the property.
An absentee slumlord is still responsible for their property upkeep and
maintenance, not the super or the custodian.
Ralph
Tom Mogadore
>
> No Tom, NYSDOT is responsible.
>
> The property owner is responsible for their property, whether or not the
> property owner contracts out for servicing the property.
>
> An absentee slumlord is still responsible for their property upkeep and
> maintenance, not the super or the custodian.
>
> Ralph
Well, you learn something new every day.
mkeen
> On May 11, 10:43 pm, mkeen <inks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 11, 5:23 pm, Jimmy <JimmyGeldb...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>
> > > mkeen <inks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > The answer to this excellent question is found this excellent article
> > > > from The Record:http://www.northjersey.com/news/business/moneys_worth/121231538_Propo...
>
> > > > What it says is that North Jersey commuters are getting screwed
> > > > because PANYNJ is aligned with the New York EZ-Pass Service Center
> > > > while all of the South Jersey bi-state agencies use the NJ
> > > > consortium. So PANYNJ tag holders would lose any turnpike discount
> > > > while a DRBA or DRPA holder would not.
>
> > > Wow, I can't believe that's the proposal. It's totally going to
> > > backfire.
>
> > > Is this an oversight, or does the technology prevent them from giving
> > > a discount to just one agency from a different service center?
>
> > > By the way, can anyone explain the signs in this picture about how to
> > > pay at a GSP ramp toll when it's unattended?http://media.nj.com/ledgerupdates_impact/photo/9433967-large.jpg
>
> > > I can't figure out what E-ZPass holders are supposed to do. It says
> > > "when no collector on duty/no change/E-ZPass". Does that mean you
> > > have to pay with coins even if you have an E-ZPass? Or that you can
> > > use your E-ZPass, but only in the exact change lane, which appears to
> > > have a "pizza box" E-ZPass reader?
>
> > > Jimmy
>
> > I think what the sign is trying to say is if no collector is on duty
> > AND you don't have [exact] change AND you have NO EZPass then you
> > should use the Exact Change lane. A much better way to sign the plaza
> > would be to label the lanes "EZ Pass Only" and "All Others". Then a
> > sign in the "All Others" lane could explain what to do if you have no
> > EZ Pass and no exact change.
>
> > Back to the NY/NJ thing, there is no technological reason why
> > different agencies sharing the same EZ Pass service center can't have
> > different pricing policies. By way of example, of the four agencies
> > that use the New York service center only one (PANYNJ) charges a
> > monthly account fee. I can also recall a time when some agencies in
> > the New Jersey system charged a monthly fee while others did not. So
> > it would be technically possible for the turnpike discount to be
> > extended to PANYNJ accounts and not, for example, to TBTA accounts.
>
> > Here is one interesting difference between the NY and NJ service
> > centers. In the NJ system, anyone can apply for an account directly
> > to the agency with which they want it set up. In the NY system,
> > everything is handled through a single web site and application. The
> > average user won't know what agency's tag they'll get until it
> > arrives. In fact, the choice is made by the mailing address of the
> > applicant. In order to NOT get a PANYNJ account, you need to have
> > your tags mailed somewhere in New York State. Once you have your
> > account you can edit the address to be whatever you like.
>
> > M Keen
> > Ringwood, NJ- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> that poster said was the NYS Thwy Auth required its ezpass tags only
> be available to NYS residents. All others got PANY&NJ tags.
>
> Because this is where I got caught up in this. I initially applied
> for a Thwy tag at the old Spring Valley ezpass ctr. This was pre NJ
> ezpass and I wanted it for the Thrwy as I was going to be in NYS quite
> a bit that year
>
> I got a letter and a bag telling me not to use it, to return the tag
> and I would subsequently receive a PANY&NJ tag.
Yikes. My solution was to have the Thruway tags mailed to one of my
work sites in New York. Once I had them, I logged in and updated my
address without any issues.
M Keen
Ringwood, NJ
rsh...@gmail.com
it is not just oil and resultant pollution, it is what it costs to
build a lane for traffic and what it costs to maintain that lane
further, I am not quite as hopeful as you are on the elimination of
the oil based infernal combustion engine
which means for quite a long time to come we are going to use very
expensive, difficult to get to oil deposits in the US and further
sending mucho dinero to the House of Saud
btw no one loves to drive more more then I, but I am very realistic
about what it actually costs
rsh...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
and you remain a lying hypocrtitical son of a bitch
you know full well I pay fuel taxes and sales taxes same as you do
but really there little tommy as the world keeps spining around, you
can really eat your fucking lying hypocritical heart out over the real
and imagined benefits I might have
my guess is at this late date you have not found a job
where as I keep working and making good money
what are you doing there little tommie, living off the bitch?????
lyingsuppos...@yahoo.com
you and lying hypocritical larry cannot stand the truth, now can you
further you cannot stand that I get certain benefits, so eat your
little heart out there tommie, eat you little heart out
ah gallons of free gasoline, love it
mkeen
I understand there are some very complex congestion pricing schemes.
But the off-peak discount on the NJTPK, as flawed as it is, and as
foolish as the proposed change would make it, is still by definition a
congestion pricing plan.
I can tell you that when I had work in NYC that began at 7am, I made
sure to get my EZ Pass tag through the toll plaza on the GWB or LT
before 6am to get the off-peak discount there. Two bucks is two
bucks. A plan needn't be complex to be effective.
M Keen
Ringwood, NJ
Tom Mogadore
Tom Mogadore
>
> what are you doing there little tommie, living off the bitch?????
I don't have a dog.
rsh...@gmail.com
living off the old lady, the bitch does al the work and you live off
the phat
quit your last job because it was "sucky" and for all of your
qualification, esp being a licensed ass wiper, are unable to find
anything else
no wonder you bitch and moan about what I do and my ability to pay no
income tax
I do love the sound of your whining
you and your whining bitch friend
you make such perfect company together
Tom Mogadore
>
> living off the old lady, the bitch does al the work and you live off
> the phat
>
Really now? Wrong as usual. It costs money to get to the city. There are other
things that cost money that I need/want. I don't ask for that money.
> quit your last job because it was "sucky" and for all of your
> qualification, esp being a licensed ass wiper, are unable to find
> anything else
>
I've been working for months. Incidentally, I don't get anywhere near an ass. It's not expected of me, nor is it in my job description. The CNAS would rather you not get in their way.
As far as my last job-nobody who I worked with works there anymore. The company was acquired by a national company, and all the exempt employees were way too expensive for their taste. So they got rid of them and got in people at lower pay.
> no wonder you bitch and moan about what I do and my ability to pay no
> income tax
No, not really. What skills do you actually have? None. What education have you pursued? None. I have both my legs. You don't have anything for me to be jealous of.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> > Which would lead the casual observer(that is, me) to think that NYCDOT is
> > responsible for the Expressways. I really don't spend a great deal of time
> > delving into these things, honestly, I have other priorities.
>
> No Tom, NYSDOT is responsible.
Ralph, could you clarify that ownership a bit further?
Does the state of New York own all 'expressways' and
'parkways' (they're separate types of roads) within the city of New
York?
But aren't major bridges, like the East River crossings, still owned
by the City of New York?
Jimmy
> Jimmy <JimmyGeldb...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> > Is this an oversight, or does the technology prevent them from giving
> > a discount to just one agency from a different service center?
>
> different agencies sharing the same EZ Pass service center can't have
> it would be technically possible for the turnpike discount to be
> extended to PANYNJ accounts and not, for example, to TBTA accounts.
That's not the issue I was thinking of (though a scheme to extend the
discount to Port Authority accounts would have to handle that issue).
I thought it might not be possible for the NJ Service Center to post
foreign transponder tolls to the inter-agency network, and have the
network charge different rates to different foreign agencies.
But now I remember that Indiana and Illinois were screwing around with
surcharging each other's users, since there was an imbalance in
foreign transactions. So I guess it's possible. (http://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Zoom is confusing. It simultaneously says
they offer reciprocal discounts and surcharges. Which is correct?)
Why doesn't the IAG's contract with agencies deal with the costs of
maintaining accounts? If it costs 3% on average to pay for the
customer service center and the credit card fees for recharging
accounts, then let the transponder's agency keep 3% of interagency
tolls. Problem solved, with no agency-specific user surcharges
involved.
Jimmy
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Why doesn't the IAG's contract with agencies deal with the costs of
> maintaining accounts? If it costs 3% on average to pay for the
> customer service center and the credit card fees for recharging
> accounts, then let the transponder's agency keep 3% of interagency
> tolls. Problem solved, with no agency-specific user surcharges
> involved.
How much does it cost to service EZPASS's? Unlike my credit, I almost
never need to telephone them for support, it runs automatically.
While they have to pay a credit card transaction fee, they also have
my money up front long before it's used to pay the toll.
Collectively, that's a huge amount of money in pre-paid tolls that can
be used for financing purposes. (Indeed, insurance companies make
their money in the gap between the time a premium is paid and a claim
is paid out.)
Also, EZPASS saves the labor from having a human staff a toll lane and
secured backoffice work to count up and deposit the bank receipts. it
also defers the need to build more toll lanes to accomodate higher
traffic volume since EZPASS lanes are more productive.
The point is that it's to the Authority's advantage that motorists
have EZPASS. (Some Authorities have giveaways where motorists can
stop by the toll office building and pick up a unit on the spot, with
variable message signs pointing the way).
But this nonsensical business of penalizing out of state or out-of-
area drivers is counter productive. Many roads have their heaviest
traffic during weekend times when people go out to visit or play.
Collectively it's heavy traffic, but most of those drivers are not
commuters holding a pass. Thus the lanes back up.
Encouraging occassional motorists to carry EZPASS without service
charges will save time for all. Making a trip smoother encourages
people to take more trips, and thus more toll revenue.
Jimmy
> Jimmy <JimmyGeldb...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> > Why doesn't the IAG's contract with agencies deal with the costs of
> > maintaining accounts? If it costs 3% on average to pay for the
> > customer service center and the credit card fees for recharging
> > accounts, then let the transponder's agency keep 3% of interagency
> > tolls. Problem solved, with no agency-specific user surcharges
> > involved.
>
> How much does it cost to service EZPASS's? Unlike my credit, I almost
> never need to telephone them for support, it runs automatically.
>
> While they have to pay a credit card transaction fee, they also have
> my money up front long before it's used to pay the toll.
> Collectively, that's a huge amount of money in pre-paid tolls that can
> be used for financing purposes.
Maybe. But my point (which you seemed to miss when you went off on a
tangent about foreign discounts in general) is that these account
maintenance costs related to an interagency imbalance, if they exist,
are predictable, and should have been handled in the IAG's contract.
That would be much better than the current situation of Illinois
somehow coming after Indiana for account maintenance costs, and
Indiana recouping that money by adding a 3% *surcharge* to Illinois
users' (and nobody else's) tolls, and each agency blaming the other
for it.
Jimmy
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Maybe. But my point (which you seemed to miss when you went off on a
> tangent about foreign discounts in general) is that these account
> maintenance costs related to an interagency imbalance, if they exist,
> are predictable, and should have been handled in the IAG's contract.
>
> That would be much better than the current situation of Illinois
> somehow coming after Indiana for account maintenance costs, and
> Indiana recouping that money by adding a 3% *surcharge* to Illinois
> users' (and nobody else's) tolls, and each agency blaming the other
> for it.
All true.
rsh...@gmail.com
but all you do is whine, whine whine
very likely I make more then you do with all of your vaunted education
and skills
and what difference does any physical impairments I might have
make???? other then in your little mind?????
you do not have the ability to shut your whining mouth, but what can I
expect from the olikes of you
whine whine whine that is all that come from little Tommy's mouth
Beef Supreme
news:baca5d7f-a430-475d...@glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com...
> I've been working for months. Incidentally, I don't get anywhere near an
> ass. It's not expected of me, nor is it in my job description. The CNAS
> would rather you not get in their way.
>
> As far as my last job-nobody who I worked with works there anymore. The
> company was acquired by a national company, and all the exempt employees
> were way too expensive for their taste. So they got rid of them and got in
> people at lower pay.
That should be against the law. As should shipping jobs overseas. It's
high time for the corporations to quit pissing on the little guy. But as
long as there are corporation-loving Repubs, the corporations will keep
shitting on everybody and raping the environment in the name of profits and
profits alone. God I hope I live long enough to witness the demise of the
GOP.
--
Down the left hand highway with no sinister regrets
deanej
> "Tom Mogadore" <ttmm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
It's more likely that the GOP will give corporations full citizenship
and strip person status from the rest of us than go away unless people
start to become active in politics.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> > company was acquired by a national company, and all the exempt employees
> > were way too expensive for their taste. So they got rid of them and got in
> > people at lower pay.
>
> That should be against the law. As should shipping jobs overseas. It's
> high time for the corporations to quit pissing on the little guy. But as
> long as there are corporation-loving Repubs, the corporations will keep
> shitting on everybody and raping the environment in the name of profits and
> profits alone. God I hope I live long enough to witness the demise of the
> GOP.
This is one of those "rock and a hard place" economic issues that is
tough to decide.
On the one hand, a business has to be competitive--that means low
costs to have low prices, otherwise customers will go elsewhere. But
on the other hand if all the businesses pay their workers crap, the
workers won't be able to afford to buy the goods, and the business
will still suffer.
Some of the more forward-looking robber-barons of the 1900s recognized
the need to elevate the common worker and they supported decent public
schools and the like. They recognized a better workforce was better
for business.
One problem today is the gross hypocracy by many shoppers. I know
lots of people who moan about the demise of mom 'n pop stores or even
locally owned department stores. But these people were the ones who
abandoned those stores at first opportunity to buy cheap goods at
Walmart, and shop for low price first and foremost. These people also
demand cutbacks in public services, including education, to lower
their taxes.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> It's more likely that the GOP will give corporations full citizenship
> and strip person status from the rest of us than go away unless people
> start to become active in politics.-
Actually, a lot of individual people support that very thing, and
they're active in politics pushing for it. They genuinely believe
that what's good for big corporations is good for the little guy.
Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.
I believe that is the issue far more than the "robber barons" who don't
actually exist.
I am unfortunately acquainted with a number of people who go into the
brick-and-mortar, fully stocked, competently staffed store to touch and
handle and get advice and try, then go to Costco or Walmart (whom they
deride, belittle and besmirch on their way there) or go "on-line" and
buy it a penny cheaper.
Steve Sobol
@c1g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com says...
> This is one of those "rock and a hard place" economic issues that is
> tough to decide.
>
> On the one hand, a business has to be competitive--that means low
> costs to have low prices, otherwise customers will go elsewhere. But
> on the other hand if all the businesses pay their workers crap, the
> workers won't be able to afford to buy the goods, and the business
> will still suffer.
I recently watched a 60 Minutes story about how many large companies are
moving their HQ's offshore to avoid the 35% corporate income tax levied
by the IRS. A very good point was made, and many people may not be aware
of it: Publically-traded companies have a fiduciary and *legal*
obligation to maximize profits, and if they don't, they can get their
asses handed to them in court (when the shareholders sue).
I think the next most expensive country had a corporate income rate of
only about 15%. I think it will help if the US lowers the corporate
income rate to a sane level, and offer economic incentives for these
companies to move their HQ back. Is 15% a lot less than 35%? Yes, but
we're currently collecting 0%; 15% is a huge improvement.
--
Steve Sobol - Programming/WebDev/IT Support
sjs...@JustThe.net
Steve Sobol
says...
> I am unfortunately acquainted with a number of people who go into the
> brick-and-mortar, fully stocked, competently staffed store to touch and
> handle and get advice and try, then go to Costco or Walmart (whom they
> deride, belittle and besmirch on their way there) or go "on-line" and
> buy it a penny cheaper.
Agreed.
Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.
Exactly to the point.
That and customer behaviour get us where we are, without any evil at all
on the 18th floor.
Steve Sobol
says...
> Exactly to the point.
>
> That and customer behaviour get us where we are, without any evil at all
> on the 18th floor.
Yup.
I'm not about not to say that corporations don't do evil things. That is
simply not true. HOWEVER.... :)
Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.
> In article<93glq4...@mid.individual.net>, Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.
> says...
>
>
>> Exactly to the point.
>>
>> That and customer behaviour get us where we are, without any evil at all
>> on the 18th floor.
>
> Yup.
>
> I'm not about not to say that corporations don't do evil things. That is
> simply not true. HOWEVER.... :)
Well, I could argue (and would in some cases) that contrary to common
beliefs and wishes, corporations can do neither good not evil. Managers
of corporations on the other hand....
But in some cases the grease spot on the street is not particularly
interested in whether it was created from a person that was run over by
a steamroller, or by an evil person driving a steamroller ......
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> I recently watched a 60 Minutes story about how many large companies are
> moving their HQ's offshore to avoid the 35% corporate income tax levied
> by the IRS. A very good point was made, and many people may not be aware
> of it: Publically-traded companies have a fiduciary and *legal*
> obligation to maximize profits, and if they don't, they can get their
> asses handed to them in court (when the shareholders sue).
I don't think winning such a lawsuit is that easy to do (I've looked
into that). The phrase "maximize profits" consists of many different
business strategies (short term, long term, marketing strategies,
etc). Stockholders cannot micromanage a corporation. It's up to
management to pick the best strategy, and if it doesn't work out, so
it goes. Outside of crime, I believe a violation of a "fiduciary
duty" only occurs if management takes an outrageous extreme course of
action.
Management could easily say that moving HQ outside of the US just to
save on taxes would create other expenses, disrupt internal
communications, and upset customers; all very legitimate issues.
Does a corporation maximize profits by minimizing wages? Or will it
make more money by paying better wages to encourage employee loyalty
and productivity? There are historical examples of both.
In the 1920s, large companies monitored employees' lives at home.
Employees violating company policy (eg drinking or complaining) were
fired. Does that practice improve worker efficiency and profits?
Should it be done today?
The point is there's a lot that can be done to "maximize profits".
How far do we want to go?
> I think the next most expensive country had a corporate income rate of
> only about 15%. I think it will help if the US lowers the corporate
> income rate to a sane level, and offer economic incentives for these
> companies to move their HQ back. Is 15% a lot less than 35%? Yes, but
> we're currently collecting 0%; 15% is a huge improvement.
The official corporate income tax 'rate' is NOT the _effective rate_
companies pay on their income. The corporate tax code is extremely
complex and allows all sorts of legitimate business deductions (eg
build a factory in a designated depressed area). Many businesses have
successfully lobbied for special breaks in the tax code. Thus General
Electric, who AFAIK is still HQ in the US, paid very little income
taxes despite great profits.
Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.
I did just a little research into the question, because I thought it was
"maximize share holder value" not "maximize profits". I'm not sure
where this leaves me:
http://www.leighbureau.com/speakers/mraynor/essays/shareholder.pdf
I am sure that I thought that back in my USE, inc days that the gutting
off of R&D budgets was explained by the fact that the pay-off, if any,
came after the end of the quarter.
Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.
> I am sure that I thought that back in my USE, inc days that the gutting
> off of R&D budgets was explained by the fact that the pay-off, if any,
> came after the end of the quarter.
Don't bother searching for USE, inc--not of tne search engines I checked
knew the right answer--USE, inc was a user-group of organizations the
used large-scale UNIVAC-Sperry-Unisys 1100 and 2200 series computers--it
was the incorporated remnant of the UNIVAC Scientific Exchange.
Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.
> On 5/17/2011 11:04 PM, Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr. wrote:
>
>> I am sure that I thought that back in my USE, inc days that the gutting
>> off of R&D budgets was explained by the fact that the pay-off, if any,
>> came after the end of the quarter.
>
> Don't bother searching for USE, inc--not of tne search engines I checked
> knew the right answer--USE, inc was a user-group of organizations the
> used large-scale UNIVAC-Sperry-Unisys 1100 and 2200 series computers--it
> was the incorporated remnant of the UNIVAC Scientific Exchange.
Take 2.
Don't bother searching for USE, inc--none of the search engines I
checked knew the right answer--USE, inc was a user-group of
organizations that used large-scale UNIVAC-Sperry-Unisys 1100 and 2200
series computers--it was the incorporated remnant of the UNIVAC
Scientific Exchange. At the time it committed suicide, it was the
oldest such user group in the world--older than SHARE which was often
thought to be the oldest by a lot of people.
Beef Supreme
news:MPG.283cba09...@news.justthe.net...
> I recently watched a 60 Minutes story about how many large companies are
> moving their HQ's offshore to avoid the 35% corporate income tax levied
> by the IRS. A very good point was made, and many people may not be aware
> of it: Publically-traded companies have a fiduciary and *legal*
> obligation to maximize profits, and if they don't, they can get their
> asses handed to them in court (when the shareholders sue).
They also have an obligation to be good corporate citizens and to protect
the environment, among other things. Unfortunately, they often don't do it,
and nobody has the balls to stand up and make them do what is right.
Beef Supreme
news:e2d4014c-32dc-4863...@t16g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
> The official corporate income tax 'rate' is NOT the _effective rate_
> companies pay on their income. The corporate tax code is extremely
> complex and allows all sorts of legitimate business deductions (eg
> build a factory in a designated depressed area). Many businesses have
> successfully lobbied for special breaks in the tax code. Thus General
> Electric, who AFAIK is still HQ in the US, paid very little income
> taxes despite great profits.
Which is a CRIME. It is immoral to make a poor person pay high taxes while
letting huge profitable corporations get away without paying taxes. It is
also a crime not to tax religious institutions. If we'd properly tax
corporations and churches, much of our financial mess would be over.
Tom Mogadore
You can stand up all day long, and it doesn't matter. Because they'll just move to where the population is more complaisant. Corporations and capital are extranational-they exist in a world of their own-and the general public isn't a part of it, nor can we control it. We are merely another resource to exploit.
rsh...@gmail.com
> "Tom Mogadore" <ttmm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
all you have to do is look back to Newt and 1994
as Yogi Berra would say, it's deja vu all over again
as well 2006
it WILL happen starting in 2010, but the Dems have to be smart
rsh...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
people are active, that is what the "teabaggers" are. local
grassroots, it just they are being financed by the likes of the Koch
Borthers and Richard Mellon Scaife and Stevie Forbes who have them
conned into thinking the rich will look after the little guys
interests.
the rich namely the above are intersted only in protecting themselves
from paying their fare share
rsh...@gmail.com
please explain something to me
how does Germany do it, they have very profitable companys, as well,
companys that have been around 400+ years, moderate unempoyment and
strong unions
as well their citizenry and corporations apparently are willing to
accept high taxes
not to mention a much better educational system then we have
rsh...@gmail.com
I will ask you the same question:
rsh...@gmail.com
> <hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote in message
the problem is the US Congress, because of a 24 month election
schedule is bought and paid for by campign contributions
and because of the recent SCOTUS decision, they are protected as free
speech
in addition, for whatever reason alot of individuals think they are
going to become very rich
look at the people who call President Obama a "socialist" or a
"communist" or a "marxist"
and they fully believe his election is what is stopping them from
becoming very rich
like McCain's election would have done just that
what they fail to realize among a great many other thing is 98% of the
wealth is controlled by less then 2% of the population
another thing you might want to do, if you are interested is Google
the biggest shareholders in the biggest corps in the Fortune 500
that to a large extent is who runs things