Illinois right-of-way markers
mobilene
markers I found while exploring the National Road in Illinois?
One marker reads "STATE ROW." I found three others that read "R-O-
W." I find vague info on the net that says the STATE ROW markers
predate the R-O-W markers, but that's about as good as I've found.
I also found a marker next to one of the R-O-W markers that reads "FI
9 - 72." Does anybody know what this means? I considered that it
might be a mile marker, but I couldn't figure out what I was 72 miles
from.
Thanks,
jim
Rich Piehl
Where did you find them, Jim? That might helpful in figuring out the
mystery.
Take care,
Rich
God bless the USA
--
That's one of the problems in this country
The nuts don't know they're nuts.
--Jeff Foxworthy
Steve A.
How old is the FI 9-72? It could be a georeference.
Rick Powell
Jim,
I work for the state of IL. There is a standard drawing for ROW
markers, and we have all former standards archived on microfilm. The
current standard, which has been around as long as I can remember,
shows "R O W" vertically. There were other markers showing "STATE R O
W" in the past. It would take a search of the archives to find out
the year the transition was made; it would probably put you within a
few decades of dating the old and new markers. We usually do not
replace these if they are knocked down or destroyed, and do not
install them on a project unless we are buying a new piece of land and
need to mark the new limits.
I remember seeing some standard drawings of markers with numbers on
them - I think they may have some significance for something other
than ROW or mileage (maybe the old road districts). We didn't put in
mile markers (except interstate highways) on state highways in recent
history until about 15-20 years ago. These are the square metal signs
on a white background with a green circle, including the county name,
route, and mileage from the south or west county line.
RP
mobilene
On Feb 12, 9:52 pm, Rich Piel wrote:
> Where did you find them, Jim? That might helpful in figuring out the
> mystery.
This Live Search Maps collection shows the locations of all five
markers I found, with photos. Three of them are just east of
Marshall, IL, along the abandoned National Road path, and the other
two are on the west edge of town on Archer Avenue, which is old US
40. The easternmost marker is in a wooded area, the road bed
completely covered with low plant life -- but no trees, suggesting
that the road is still under there.
http://maps.live.com/?v=2&cid=4C2B88108DBA6032!126
On Feb 12, 11:19 pm, Rick Powell <rkpow...@ivnet.com> wrote:
> The
> current standard, which has been around as long as I can remember,
> shows "R O W" vertically. There were other markers showing "STATE R O
> W" in the past. It would take a search of the archives to find out
> the year the transition was made; it would probably put you within a
> few decades of dating the old and new markers.
It's helpful to know that the STATE R O W markers are older than the R
O W markers. I only found the one STATE R O W marker, east of
Marshall.
> We usually do not
> replace these if they are knocked down or destroyed, and do not
> install them on a project unless we are buying a new piece of land and
> need to mark the new limits.
I'm guessing it was in the 1910s that Illinois's state route system
came to be, and that the National Road route was given SBI number 11
at that time. It would take detailed knowledge of that corridor's
history to know for sure, I expect, but do you think it's reasonable
to guess that STATE R O W markers were put in when the road was
bricked? Maybe the road was widened at that time? I am told that
happened in the 1920s. I don't know; I'm just guessing!
> I remember seeing some standard drawings of markers with numbers on
> them - I think they may have some significance for something other
> than ROW or mileage (maybe the old road districts).
That's interesting and gives me something else to look at. Thanks for
the information you've shared!
Peace,
jim
Rick Powell
The current "marker" standards can be found online here, including the
current "R O W" concrete marker. Unfortunately the on-line archives
just go back to 2004. A lot has changed in the standards since the
1920's, but a few items are eerily similar to how they were done 80
years ago.
http://www.dot.state.il.us/desenv/hwystds/HwyStndIndex.html
Here is a Bureau of Local Roads "section" marker that sounds closest
to what you describe.
http://www.dot.state.il.us/desenv/hwystds/All%20Web%20209%20PDFs/209-BLR6-5_SectMarkers.pdf
RP
Rick Powell
The first State Bond Issue highways were generally constructed around
1918, and there was a flurry of roadbuilding and upgrading on the new
state system between then and the late 1920's. Governor Len Small ran
on a platform as the "Good Roads Governor".
I am not sure how R O W markers were placed back in the old days when
the state first took over many of the old public roads. Much of the
public right of way was prescriptive, meaning the state never had
title to the land and it was a "squatter's rights" occupation where
the boundaries are described by old surveys and fence lines. As time
went on, the right of ways were widened, first by dedication as a
public road (with actual paper work describing the limits even though
the property wasn't bought outright), and then by fee simple
acquisition (where state holds the title and owner is paid for the
property value). In these cases, markers were usually placed in rural
locations at the break points where the line changed direction or
width, or where it met another public right of way at a corner.
FYI, the state Highway District in charge of Clark County is:
IDOT DISTRICT 7
400 West Wabash
Effingham, Illinois 62401-2699
Telephone:(217) 342-3951
RP
mobilene
> The first State Bond Issue highways were generally constructed around
> 1918, and there was a flurry of roadbuilding and upgrading on the new
> state system between then and the late 1920's. Governor Len Small ran
> on a platform as the "Good Roads Governor".
>
> I am not sure how R O W markers were placed back in the old days when
> the state first took over many of the old public roads. Much of the
> public right of way was prescriptive, meaning the state never had
> title to the land and it was a "squatter's rights" occupation where
> the boundaries are described by old surveys and fence lines. As time
> went on, the right of ways were widened, first by dedication as a
> public road (with actual paper work describing the limits even though
> the property wasn't bought outright), and then by fee simple
> acquisition (where state holds the title and owner is paid for the
> property value). In these cases, markers were usually placed in rural
> locations at the break points where the line changed direction or
> width, or where it met another public right of way at a corner.
>
> FYI, the state Highway District in charge of Clark County is:
>
> IDOT DISTRICT 7
> 400 West Wabash
> Effingham, Illinois 62401-2699
> Telephone:(217) 342-3951
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Rick,
Thanks for your excellent replies. The links you provided are very
interesting and thanks also for the contact info for the Effingham
district office.
The STATE ROW marker I found appeared (emphasize appeared) to be on a
straightaway, but the other three ROW markers I found were at places
where the road curved (or, in one place, probably curved, because
modern US 40 interrupts the road's path through there). So that seems
consistent with what you say.
It sounds like setting rights-of-way could be a bit dicey 100 years
ago.
On an earlier trip down that road, a woman who lived on the road maybe
500 yards past the Indiana state line told me that her deceased next-
door neighbor told her stories of how he was part of a crew that
bricked the National Road in the 1920s. So that must have been part
of that "flurry of roadbuilding." I gather from a book I skimmed
about a guy who traveled the National Road in the late 1800s that the
road was little more than a dirt path then, not maintained and so
overgrown that it "disappeared into the prairie." He found it
impassable and ended his trip at the Illinois/Indiana border. Makes
me curious about how Illinois highway engineers found the road when
they improved it in the 20s!
Thanks again,
jim
Rick Powell
>
> - Show quoted text -
To define some rights of way (which were never defined, but accepted
as public roads) we literally have to dust off survey books from the
1910's and 1920's and find the offset from the center of the road to
the fence line as it was originally measured in place. Most of the
property fences next to the old public roads have long been removed,
and we would otherwise have no clue.
In the old days, designating frontage along a property for public road
use was considered to be the "compensation" because your property
would increase in value if it was accessible from a public road.
Indeed, many of the old public roads were first laid out and improved
by the landowners themselves. Nowadays, the state cannot acquire
anything without paying for it or making a land trade.
RP
mobilene
> To define some rights of way (which were never defined, but accepted
> as public roads) we literally have to dust off survey books from the
> 1910's and 1920's and find the offset from the center of the road to
> the fence line as it was originally measured in place. Most of the
> property fences next to the old public roads have long been removed,
> and we would otherwise have no clue.
I imagine this means that some road work you need to do on old roads
requires buying land, then, because the right-of-way defined by the
old fence line is not sufficient.
> In the old days, designating frontage along a property for public road
> use was considered to be the "compensation" because your property
> would increase in value if it was accessible from a public road.
> Indeed, many of the old public roads were first laid out and improved
> by the landowners themselves.
That makes sense, now that you point it out! I think about how entire
towns sprang up along early through roads because of the inherent
value. Whenever I drive through Indiana, where I live, on the
Michigan Road (1830s), which stretched from the Ohio River to Lake
Michigan, it's amazing how many 1800s houses are on it, facing the
road.
jim
John F. Carr
mobilene <mobi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Feb 14, 3:53 pm, Rick Powell <rkpow...@ivnet.com> wrote:
>> To define some rights of way (which were never defined, but accepted
>> as public roads) we literally have to dust off survey books from the
>> 1910's and 1920's and find the offset from the center of the road to
>> the fence line as it was originally measured in place. Most of the
>> property fences next to the old public roads have long been removed,
>> and we would otherwise have no clue.
In Massachusetts state highway layouts have been scanned and
are available on the MassHighway web site. It is no longer
necessary to pull out the old books.
>I imagine this means that some road work you need to do on old roads
>requires buying land, then, because the right-of-way defined by the
>old fence line is not sufficient.
Most of the recent changes here are minor alterations like taking a few
hundred square feet for an intersection project.
The main page of state highway layouts is at
<http://www.mhd.state.ma.us/Layouts/Main.asp?ACTION=PreLayoutSearch>
If some of the image links in these pages don't work -- the slashes
are wrong on my computer -- I have links organized by town on my web
page at <http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/Layouts/>. The link at the top of
each town's page goes to the directory containing the TIFF files
for that town.
This link
<http://www.mhd.state.ma.us/Layouts/MAIN.asp?ACTION=ViewLayout&TOWN_NAME=ASHBY&LAYOUT_ID=1>
is the first state highway in Massachusetts, a section of what is now
Route 119 in Ashby laid out in 1894.
--
John Carr (j...@mit.edu)