RMCA 2000: Ohio to Chicago (almost) and back (long)

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Marc Fannin

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Sep 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM9/17/00
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Sandor Gulyas and I just attended the Road Map Collectors Association
Annual Map Meet in Hammond, Indiana
( http://www.roadmaps.org/events/000916.html ). I met him at his
house, and he drove us there. The gory details, broken into sections:

Friday, September 15

**[Me] I-90 Exit 193 (Ohio 306) westward to I-271 South to I-71 South
to Ohio 61 to Morrow County roads**

This has mostly been commented on lately (search Deja.com for
appropriate posts by Sandor, myself and David Greenberger); the only
things I can add are that Ohio seems to be adding gravel emergency
turn-offs in construction zones where the roadway is narrowed due to
the construction, that third lane construction on I-71 is underway
northward from US 250 for a few miles, and that there is a pair of
truck parking areas under construction just south of Ohio 95 on I-71
which currently are ODOT training areas according to orange diamond
signs there.

**[Both of us] Morrow County roads to Ohio 229 West at Ashley (Jct. US
42) to US 23 North to Ohio 15 West to I-75**

I got to see the subjects of many photos that Sandor has sent me for
our Ohio site in person along this section.

-- US 23 Southbound has what amounts to an exit ramp and an entrance
ramp for Ohio 229, but traffic is instructed to use the US 23/Ohio 229
intersection for all movements between the highways.

-- The new northern/western US 23/US 30 interchange north of Upper
Sandusky is a full stack.

-- There is no doubt that Ohio 15 is the way to I-75 when US 23 leaves
its expressway near Carey, due to the many trailblazers, including two
flanking the Ohio 15 pull-through sign at the US 23/Ohio 15/Ohio 103
interchange.

-- When we were approaching I-75 on US 68/Ohio 15, we exited briefly
and stumbled onto Findlay's Business Loop 75 (see
http://www.aaroads.com/business-routes/bus75.html ), so we got a photo
of a BL-75 shield for posterity (and Andy ;) ).

-- There is no END 68 assembly at the northern (eastern) end of US 68,
but I took a photo of the end anyway (and it wouldn't be the last US
route ending that we would encounter, either).

**I-75 North to I-80/I-90/Ohio Turnpike West**

-- I took a photo of the I-75/I-475/US 23 interchange south of Toledo
(another stack), in spite of the fact that the gantry which should've
been there, signs and all, was lying on the side of the road.

-- When we joined the Turnpike, Sandor was starting to get adjusted to
a portion of the highway on which he had never been; I, however, was
looking for confetti and balloons to appear in celebration of my 1000th
time on this highway (well, it sure seems like it...).

-- I got to show Sandor first-hand why this section of the Turnpike
(Toledo westward) always gets mentioned in m.t.r's perenial "Most
Boring Interstate" threads (what do you expect from a drained
mega-swamp, anyway?).

**The Ohio Turnpike becomes the Indiana Toll Road**

-- Around the Lagrange/Howe interchange (Indiana 9/Exit 121) I
commented that Tom Ketchum and his son were very close by.

**Elkhart County Road 17 South from the Toll Road Exit 96 (Elkhart
East) to the St. Joseph Valley Parkway (US 20 West then US 20 West/US
31 North then US 31 North) back to the Toll Road**

-- The gantry on the Exit 96 access ramp has a sign for Co Rd 17
South/TO [Indiana 120] [US 20], but there isn't a sign at all for CR 17
North in the space where one should be (yes, there is access to both
directions).

-- Indiana 120 was supposed to have been re-routed onto CR 17 from
their intersection south to US 20 four days earlier, but signage is
unchanged from before.

-- On this trip we got photos of not one, not two, not three, but four
different places where US 33 has ended in the past, including the
current end at US 20 south of Elkhart.

-- We took photos from different angles of Indiana's first Single-Point
Urban Interchange (SPUI), US 20 at Ironwood Drive just east of US
31/Michigan Avenue south of South Bend.

-- There are still remnants from when the first sections of the South
Bend bypass opened, though widening continues between Indiana 2 and US
20/Lincolnway West.

**Toll Road West to the Borman Expressway (I-80/I-94/US 6) West**

-- The sign at the US 35 overpass still reads "SR 29 US 35" even though
Indiana 29 was dropped here decades ago.

-- Got a photo of the C.S.T. boundary sign (even though we actually
passed into CDT since it's September). Although we passed from Eastern
to Central there, the time didn't change. Why?
http://www.mccsc.edu/time.html

**The Borman West to our hotel at the US 41/Indiana 152/Indianapolis
Boulevard interchange**

-- The Borman, a hated highway by some, hardly gave us trouble. The
only time we didn't travel at speed was when we had to shave about 20
MPH off immediately around either the Broadway (Indiana 53) cloverleaf
or the Grant Avenue one. Otherwise, smooth sailing. I will, however,
join the bandwagon of those who would like to see the Borman widened to
eight lanes.

-- There is so much progress on the rebuild of the Cline Avenue/Indiana
912 interchange (Cline is actually now a freeway) to one with two
flyovers and other higher-speed ramps that I hardly recognize it
anymore.

-- There is a jughandle to the service drive to the hotel where we
stayed and the adjacent plaza (Interstate Plaza) from the
80/94/6/Borman-to-US 41/Indianapolis Blvd SB ramp. Indianapolis SB
accesses it with a dual left-turn lane pair. Photo:
terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=11&T=1&X=1150&Y=11506&Z=16&W=2

Saturday, September 16

-- US 41 south of the Borman is signed as Alternate I-65 in one place
that we saw.

-- On the way to the meet, we swung through Illinois briefly. Route:
The Borman West (becomes the Tri-State at the border) to Illinois
83/Torrence Avenue South (first exit in Illinois) through Lansing to
Ridge Road (old US 6) East to US 41/Indpls (short detour, I know).

-- About the road map meet: Very interesting. I had no maps to trade,
but I ended up buying a 1949 Michigan official, a 1931 Ohio by Gulf,
and a Shell guide c. 1960 to the "Ohio Turnpike Indiana Toll Road and
Calumet Skyway" (the Calumet Skyway is now the Chicago Skyway, of
course) complete with toll schedules. I also picked up free Michigan,
Indiana, and Iowa 2000 officials and a 1999 Indiana official. Sandor
got a 1962 Rand McNally for a quarter! It shows the complete
proposed-but-not-enacted I-80N/I-80 split in Northeast Ohio.

***NOTICE***
One collector had two signs for sale: An old wooden Wisconsin County DD
sign and an I-90 shield with "ILLINOIS". Another had a color souvenir
book of the Pennsylvania Turnpike c. 1950 and an old Mackinac Bridge
brochure with toll rates. AFAIK all four items were still available
when the meet closed. I have the e-mail addresses of both collectors,
so if you're interested in any of these items, let me know (the signs
were going for around $30 apiece, BTW).

**The return trip**

**The Borman East then continuing on I-94 East to US 421 North to US 20
East and US 20 East/US 35 South to I-94 East**

-- We got a photo of the END US 421 assembly just north of I-94, but
had no time to venture deep into Michigan City for the END US 35
assembly (I think Matt Stefora of ncroads.com fame has a photo already).

**I-94 East into Michigan**

-- The Michigan Welcome Center is a loop -- the entrance comes before
the exit. (I had though about one day working at this Welcome Center
before moving to Ohio, BTW.)

-- The M-239 markers on the I-94 BGSs (Exit 1) are not streched
horizontally like other 3dM markers on BGSs usually are.

**Benton Harbor/St. Joseph area: Business Loop 94 East (north) from
I-94 to downtown St. Joseph, then M-63 North briefly, looping back to
BL-94 East through downtown Benton Harbor to M-139 South to US 31 South
at I-94**

-- Two of the former US 33 northern termini (1951-1960 and 1938-1951)
are located along BL-94/M-63 in St. Joseph (photos aplenty).

-- The viaduct on M-63 immediately north of the St. Joseph River and
downtown St. Joseph, past the Whirlpool Corporation world headquarters,
along with the large interchange with Klock Road on its north end, are
scheduled to be demolished next month, lowering M-63 to ground-level in
the process, to free up room for development. Taking photos of these
while they still existed was the main reason for the detour into
Michigan (I grew up in this area for those who don't know).

-- Completed the length of M-139. :)

**US 31 South, continuing south on Old 31 into Berrien Springs then
back to US 31 South/St. Joseph Valley Parkway**

-- The OLD US 31 assemblies where Old 31 South turns from southeast to
northeast in downtown Berrien Springs are still there.

**US 31 South to Niles-Buchanan Road East (Exit 5) into downtown Niles,
then along Business US 12 East/M-51 South and M-51 South to Indiana**

-- Inside the traffic island at Second and Grant Streets is a stop sign
whose base is an old, old concrete directional sign. I know that US
31/M-58 (nee M-40) followed Third Street south out of Niles originally,
but I'm not sure if any numbered highways ever met at Second and
Grant. Perhaps it predates numbered routes!

-- Got photos of the last historical US 33 northern terminus
(1986-1998) on the trip, at the US 12/Bus. 12/M-51 interchange.

**M-51 South becomes Indiana 933 South which we take to the Toll Road**

-- The SR 933/Cleveland Road intersection nearly directly under the
Toll Road underpass (where Business US 31 joins 933) had all signals
flashing red and police directing traffic because of Notre Dame
post-game football traffic.

**Toll Road East to I-69 South**

(Because of time constraints, we had to retrace our route some out of
practicality.)

**I-69 South to I-469 South/US 30 East to US 30 East to Ohio**

-- US 27 Won't Go Quietly: While the US 27 shields presumedly were
supposed to have been removed in Indiana north of Fort Wayne, we
counted six places where removal was missed:

SB Reassurance markers past Indiana 8 (Exit 129) and CR 11-A
(Exit 126)

Overheads for 69 South on CR 11-A WB and for 69 South on Indiana 1 WB
and 69 North on Indiana 1 EB (Indiana 1 is Exit 116)

Pull-through sign at I-469

-- Speaking of I-469, it is signed as Alternate I-69/Alternate US 27,
but that may be only temporarily due to construction on I-69 closer to
Fort Wayne (because of that construction, I-469 actually had traffic!

-- The END Indiana 930 sign is beyond the I-469 interchange, not
approaching it.

**US 30 into Ohio**

(Not many comments, since it was dark by this time)

-- The connection to the new US 30 freeway between I-75 and Ohio 235
apparently connects to what was there before (see
http://www.crosswinds.net/~mgk920/hfotw/exit_20.html ) by a trumpet
interchange, giving the US 30 movements priority over the others (got
that?).

-- US 30 uses future ramps already at Ohio 235, but nothing has started
at all east of 235, not even ramp grading.

**US 30 East to US 23 South/US 30 East to US 23 South to Ohio 229 East
to Morrow County roads**

(Same as the trip out)

I retraced my steps back to my starting point (I was tired and it was
dark anyway), though I checked to see if the short access ramp pairing
between I-71 and I-76/US 224 (see
http://www.crosswinds.net/~mgk920/hfotw/exit_75.html ) was divided. It
is -- if you want to call it that. It has a narrow low curb in the
middle, and along half the length the curb is totally worn down or
grown over or both.

I'm going to bed.


--
Marc Fannin musx...@kent.edu (use first) or musx...@hotmail.com
http://www.personal.kent.edu/~musxf579/
Roads: http://members.nbci.com/musxf579/roadsite.html


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Adam Froehlig

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Sep 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM9/17/00
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Marc Fannin wrote:

> -- There is no END 68 assembly at the northern (eastern) end of US 68,
> but I took a photo of the end anyway (and it wouldn't be the last US
> route ending that we would encounter, either).

I'd like, if possible, plus any other US route endings you got.

Froggie | Lauderdale, MS | http://www.ajfroggie.com/roadpics/us-ends/

Marc Fannin

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Sep 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM9/17/00
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Adam Froehlig <fro...@mississippi.net> wrote:

> I'd like, if possible, plus any other US route endings you got.

It'll be quite some time before the photos are developped, scanned,
sent, and uploaded, but in the meantime, you can use the photos of
Public Square in Cleveland at
http://members.nbci.com/musxf579/cleve.html (End US 42, US 322, US 422,
former End US 21).

Sandor G

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Sep 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM9/17/00
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Adam Froehlig <fro...@mississippi.net> wrote in message
news:39C4E023...@mississippi.net...

> Marc Fannin wrote:
>
> > -- There is no END 68 assembly at the northern (eastern) end of US 68,
> > but I took a photo of the end anyway (and it wouldn't be the last US
> > route ending that we would encounter, either).
>
> I'd like, if possible, plus any other US route endings you got.

Bug me in two weeks (for the end routes Marc & I took this past week). Rest
of my money (and time) this week are being directed towards Ohio State.
Whatever Marc says concerning the end signs he has up, concerning Ohio (I
have no involvement with his Michigan pics) is seconded by me.


>
> Froggie | Lauderdale, MS | http://www.ajfroggie.com/roadpics/us-ends/
>

--
Sandor G
"I'm not from here" - President of the OSU Geography Club
"I Just live here." - Middle of Nowhere, Ohio
-- James McMurtry

"Rocks are my pillow
The cold ground my bed
Highway is my home" -- Magic Slim


Sandor G

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Sep 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM9/17/00
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Marc Fannin <musx...@kent.edu> wrote in message
news:8q247d$2g0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> Sandor Gulyas and I just attended the Road Map Collectors Association
> Annual Map Meet in Hammond, Indiana
> ( http://www.roadmaps.org/events/000916.html ). I met him at his
> house, and he drove us there. The gory details, broken into sections:
>
> Friday, September 15
>

> **[Both of us] Morrow County roads to Ohio 229 West at Ashley (Jct. US
> 42) to US 23 North to Ohio 15 West to I-75**
>
> I got to see the subjects of many photos that Sandor has sent me for
> our Ohio site in person along this section.
>
> -- US 23 Southbound has what amounts to an exit ramp and an entrance
> ramp for Ohio 229, but traffic is instructed to use the US 23/Ohio 229
> intersection for all movements between the highways.

This might have been considered for a full diamond interchange once upon a
time. If (!!!!!) I-73 would be routed along US 23 here, then NB ramps would
be constructed (ODOT has the right of way there) and US 23 would be bridged
over SR 229.

> -- The new northern/western US 23/US 30 interchange north of Upper
> Sandusky is a full stack.

And the eastern diamond interchange's ramps are extremely long distant from
US 23.

> -- There is no doubt that Ohio 15 is the way to I-75 when US 23 leaves
> its expressway near Carey, due to the many trailblazers, including two
> flanking the Ohio 15 pull-through sign at the US 23/Ohio 15/Ohio 103
> interchange.

I found those interesting, reminding me of when there were plenty of I-70 &
71 shields on the sign gantries of I-270 around Columbus (I haven't seen
them in 15 years though).

> -- There is no END 68 assembly at the northern (eastern) end of US 68,
> but I took a photo of the end anyway (and it wouldn't be the last US
> route ending that we would encounter, either).

But you will notice that US 68 SB does start there.

> **I-75 North to I-80/I-90/Ohio Turnpike West**
>
> -- I took a photo of the I-75/I-475/US 23 interchange south of Toledo
> (another stack), in spite of the fact that the gantry which should've
> been there, signs and all, was lying on the side of the road.

Very odd since there was no construction that I could recall.

> **The Borman West to our hotel at the US 41/Indiana 152/Indianapolis
> Boulevard interchange**
>
> -- The Borman, a hated highway by some, hardly gave us trouble. The
> only time we didn't travel at speed was when we had to shave about 20
> MPH off immediately around either the Broadway (Indiana 53) cloverleaf
> or the Grant Avenue one. Otherwise, smooth sailing. I will, however,
> join the bandwagon of those who would like to see the Borman widened to
> eight lanes.
>
> -- There is so much progress on the rebuild of the Cline Avenue/Indiana
> 912 interchange (Cline is actually now a freeway) to one with two
> flyovers and other higher-speed ramps that I hardly recognize it
> anymore.
>
> -- There is a jughandle to the service drive to the hotel where we
> stayed and the adjacent plaza (Interstate Plaza) from the
> 80/94/6/Borman-to-US 41/Indianapolis Blvd SB ramp. Indianapolis SB
> accesses it with a dual left-turn lane pair. Photo:
> terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=11&T=1&X=1150&Y=11506&Z=16&W=2

This is due to the reconstruction/reconfiguration of the Indianopolis Blvd.
interchange. The jug handle is for traffic from the Borman (both east &
west) as to not cross three lanes of traffic in 30 ft. to get to the left
turn lane.

> Saturday, September 16


>
> -- About the road map meet: Very interesting. I had no maps to trade,
> but I ended up buying a 1949 Michigan official, a 1931 Ohio by Gulf,
> and a Shell guide c. 1960 to the "Ohio Turnpike Indiana Toll Road and
> Calumet Skyway" (the Calumet Skyway is now the Chicago Skyway, of
> course) complete with toll schedules. I also picked up free Michigan,
> Indiana, and Iowa 2000 officials and a 1999 Indiana official. Sandor
> got a 1962 Rand McNally for a quarter! It shows the complete
> proposed-but-not-enacted I-80N/I-80 split in Northeast Ohio.

Not noted by Marc was his first meeting with MTR's missing prophet Dave
Schul.
Not known is what Dave purchased.

> ***NOTICE***
> One collector had two signs for sale: An old wooden Wisconsin County DD
> sign and an I-90 shield with "ILLINOIS". Another had a color souvenir
> book of the Pennsylvania Turnpike c. 1950 and an old Mackinac Bridge
> brochure with toll rates. AFAIK all four items were still available
> when the meet closed. I have the e-mail addresses of both collectors,
> so if you're interested in any of these items, let me know (the signs
> were going for around $30 apiece, BTW).

I saw the Wisconsin county marker & the I-90 shield, and they look authentic
at least (compared to some of the Ebay horror stories posted on here).

> **The return trip**
>
> **The Borman East then continuing on I-94 East to US 421 North to US 20
> East and US 20 East/US 35 South to I-94 East**
>
> -- We got a photo of the END US 421 assembly just north of I-94, but
> had no time to venture deep into Michigan City for the END US 35
> assembly (I think Matt Stefora of ncroads.com fame has a photo already).
>
> **I-94 East into Michigan**

I don't know why I let him talk me into going this way. ;-)

> **Benton Harbor/St. Joseph area: Business Loop 94 East (north) from
> I-94 to downtown St. Joseph, then M-63 North briefly, looping back to
> BL-94 East through downtown Benton Harbor to M-139 South to US 31 South
> at I-94**
>
> -- Two of the former US 33 northern termini (1951-1960 and 1938-1951)
> are located along BL-94/M-63 in St. Joseph (photos aplenty).
>
> -- The viaduct on M-63 immediately north of the St. Joseph River and
> downtown St. Joseph, past the Whirlpool Corporation world headquarters,
> along with the large interchange with Klock Road on its north end, are
> scheduled to be demolished next month, lowering M-63 to ground-level in
> the process, to free up room for development. Taking photos of these
> while they still existed was the main reason for the detour into
> Michigan (I grew up in this area for those who don't know).

It looked very Adma-like.

> **M-51 South becomes Indiana 933 South which we take to the Toll Road**

Of course there are plenty of businesses along the strip here that mention
US 31 (which no longer goes this way)

> **Toll Road East to I-69 South**
>
> (Because of time constraints, we had to retrace our route some out of
> practicality.)

I had to be up at 6:30 AM to go to work, so I wanted to get home yesterday
(being that I was driving when with Marc :-).

> **US 30 into Ohio**
>
> (Not many comments, since it was dark by this time)

I tried to show Marc where the Lincoln Highway did go. The darkness
hindered that.

> -- The connection to the new US 30 freeway between I-75 and Ohio 235
> apparently connects to what was there before (see
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~mgk920/hfotw/exit_20.html ) by a trumpet
> interchange, giving the US 30 movements priority over the others (got
> that?).

I don't think it's trumpet, but a inner T interchange. Also on the last BGS
for I-75 from US 30 EB has an Oh 696 shield to the side of the BGS, while
the rest of the signage has the Oh 696 & I-75 on the BGS's.

> -- US 30 uses future ramps already at Ohio 235, but nothing has started
> at all east of 235, not even ramp grading.

Oh 235 does bridge over what will be US 30.

--

ad...@interlog.com

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Sep 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM9/17/00
to
Sandor G wrote:

> Marc Fannin <musx...@kent.edu> wrote in message
> news:8q247d$2g0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >

> > -- The viaduct on M-63 immediately north of the St. Joseph River and
> > downtown St. Joseph, past the Whirlpool Corporation world headquarters,
> > along with the large interchange with Klock Road on its north end, are
> > scheduled to be demolished next month, lowering M-63 to ground-level in
> > the process, to free up room for development. Taking photos of these
> > while they still existed was the main reason for the detour into
> > Michigan (I grew up in this area for those who don't know).
>
> It looked very Adma-like.

Hey. I've been thru beautiful downtown Benton Harbor. Purposely but
defensively, mind you. But that's my kind of creative roadtripping...


Sandor G

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Sep 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM9/17/00
to
<ad...@interlog.com> wrote in message news:39C56CBD...@interlog.com...

> Sandor G wrote:
>
> > Marc Fannin <musx...@kent.edu> wrote in message
> > news:8q247d$2g0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > >
> > > -- The viaduct on M-63 immediately north of the St. Joseph River and
> > > downtown St. Joseph, past the Whirlpool Corporation world
headquarters,
> > > along with the large interchange with Klock Road on its north end, are
> > > scheduled to be demolished next month, lowering M-63 to ground-level
in
> > > the process, to free up room for development. Taking photos of these
> > > while they still existed was the main reason for the detour into
> > > Michigan (I grew up in this area for those who don't know).
> >
> > It looked very Adma-like.
>
> Hey. I've been thru beautiful downtown Benton Harbor. Purposely but
> defensively, mind you. But that's my kind of creative roadtripping...

If nothing else, whenever I see something that many would considered
depressed, slumlike, or unsightly, the first thing I think of is you.

Michael G. Koerner

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Sep 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM9/17/00
to
Sandor G wrote:
>
> <ad...@interlog.com> wrote in message news:39C56CBD...@interlog.com...
> > Sandor G wrote:
> >
> > > Marc Fannin <musx...@kent.edu> wrote in message
> > > news:8q247d$2g0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > >
> > > > -- The viaduct on M-63 immediately north of the St. Joseph River and
> > > > downtown St. Joseph, past the Whirlpool Corporation world
> headquarters,
> > > > along with the large interchange with Klock Road on its north end, are
> > > > scheduled to be demolished next month, lowering M-63 to ground-level
> in
> > > > the process, to free up room for development. Taking photos of these
> > > > while they still existed was the main reason for the detour into
> > > > Michigan (I grew up in this area for those who don't know).
> > >
> > > It looked very Adma-like.
> >
> > Hey. I've been thru beautiful downtown Benton Harbor. Purposely but
> > defensively, mind you. But that's my kind of creative roadtripping...
>
> If nothing else, whenever I see something that many would considered
> depressed, slumlike, or unsightly, the first thing I think of is you.

The city's inability to annex land might be a BIG factor in Benton
Harbor's plight.

--
____________________________________________________________________________
Regards,

Michael G. Koerner
Appleton, WI

***NOTICE*** SPAMfilter in use, please remove ALL 'i's from the return
address to reply. ***NOTICE***
____________________________________________________________________________

ad...@interlog.com

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Sep 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM9/17/00
to
Sandor G wrote:

> <ad...@interlog.com> wrote in message news:39C56CBD...@interlog.com...
> > Sandor G wrote:
> >

> > > Marc Fannin <musx...@kent.edu> wrote in message
> > > news:8q247d$2g0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > >

> > > > -- The viaduct on M-63 immediately north of the St. Joseph River and
> > > > downtown St. Joseph, past the Whirlpool Corporation world
> headquarters,
> > > > along with the large interchange with Klock Road on its north end, are
> > > > scheduled to be demolished next month, lowering M-63 to ground-level
> in
> > > > the process, to free up room for development. Taking photos of these
> > > > while they still existed was the main reason for the detour into
> > > > Michigan (I grew up in this area for those who don't know).
> > >
> > > It looked very Adma-like.
> >

> > Hey. I've been thru beautiful downtown Benton Harbor. Purposely but
> > defensively, mind you. But that's my kind of creative roadtripping...
>
> If nothing else, whenever I see something that many would considered
> depressed, slumlike, or unsightly, the first thing I think of is you.

My prime initiative: there were Benton Harbor entries in the Michigan volume of
the Buildings Of The United States series (which acknowledged the blight). But
I would have "driven through" and enjoyed, anyway, as part of the spontaneous
sequence.

Sheesh. You remind me of true-blue Beatlemaniacs who resent Yoko Ono with a
passion, Fluxus or no Fluxus...


Marc Fannin

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Sep 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM9/18/00
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"Sandor G" <bt...@bright.net> wrote:

> Not noted by Marc was his first meeting with MTR's missing prophet
> Dave Schul.

If you're lurking, Dave, sorry I forgot about you!

A photo of all three of us will be included with the RMCA trip batch.

I happened to think of three other things from the trip:

-- There are now blue shielded tenth-mile markers and blue ramp signs
like the kind pictured halfway down http://www.artimis.org/system.php
on I-80/94/US 6/Borman Expressway (and I would assume therefore in all
of Chicagoland).

-- On the extreme western end of the Borman, immediately before
entering Illinois, because of sound walls, the signs identifying
overcrossed features, including the "Little Calumet R.", are placed
flat on the sound walls and therefore parallel to the highway (IOW you
have to turn your head all the way to the right to read them).

-- A bridge along I-69 near Angola (possibly the one over Pigeon Creek
south of US 20) is named for a late senator. That's the only road
feature that we saw in Indiana identified in that fashion. (Tom
Ketchum or Shawn McDowell, do you know anything about this?)

Sandor G

unread,
Sep 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM9/18/00
to
<ad...@interlog.com> wrote in message news:39C5884...@interlog.com...

> Sandor G wrote:
>
> > <ad...@interlog.com> wrote in message
news:39C56CBD...@interlog.com...
> > > Sandor G wrote:
> > >
> > > > Marc Fannin <musx...@kent.edu> wrote in message
> > > > news:8q247d$2g0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > -- The viaduct on M-63 immediately north of the St. Joseph River
and
> > > > > downtown St. Joseph, past the Whirlpool Corporation world
> > headquarters,
> > > > > along with the large interchange with Klock Road on its north end,
are
> > > > > scheduled to be demolished next month, lowering M-63 to
ground-level
> > in
> > > > > the process, to free up room for development. Taking photos of
these
> > > > > while they still existed was the main reason for the detour into
> > > > > Michigan (I grew up in this area for those who don't know).
> > > >
> > > > It looked very Adma-like.
> > >
> > > Hey. I've been thru beautiful downtown Benton Harbor. Purposely but
> > > defensively, mind you. But that's my kind of creative roadtripping...
> >
> > If nothing else, whenever I see something that many would considered
> > depressed, slumlike, or unsightly, the first thing I think of is you.
>
> My prime initiative: there were Benton Harbor entries in the Michigan
volume of
> the Buildings Of The United States series (which acknowledged the blight).
But
> I would have "driven through" and enjoyed, anyway, as part of the
spontaneous
> sequence.
>
> Sheesh. You remind me of true-blue Beatlemaniacs who resent Yoko Ono with
a
> passion, Fluxus or no Fluxus...
>
No dude, you're the one who always comment about blight (that's the word I
was looking for last night), saying how everyone else here overlooks it. I
am acknowledging that fact, and this is the thanks I get?!
You made your stand, and this is how I choose to remember you by.

Jason L. Bennett

unread,
Sep 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM9/18/00
to
"David J. Greenberger" wrote:

>
> musx...@kent.edu (Marc Fannin) writes:
>
> > -- On the extreme western end of the Borman, immediately before
> > entering Illinois, because of sound walls, the signs identifying
> > overcrossed features, including the "Little Calumet R.", are placed
> > flat on the sound walls and therefore parallel to the highway (IOW you
> > have to turn your head all the way to the right to read them).
>
> This has been mentioned here before, but the CITY OF CORTLAND signs on
> the I-86/NY 17 Corning Bypass are also parallel to the highway, for the
> very same reason.
>
> (Road trip report pending. I have about 90 minutes of taped notes to
> wade through and edit down before come up with something to post.)

Uh, Cortland on I-86? Did I miss something David?

Jason L. Bennett
STE Exit 27 - Hinsdale, NY
future URE Exit 5 - Oriskany, NY
--
When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire
Department usually uses water.

David J. Greenberger

unread,
Sep 18, 2000, 8:12:37 PM9/18/00
to
musx...@kent.edu (Marc Fannin) writes:

> -- On the extreme western end of the Borman, immediately before
> entering Illinois, because of sound walls, the signs identifying
> overcrossed features, including the "Little Calumet R.", are placed
> flat on the sound walls and therefore parallel to the highway (IOW you
> have to turn your head all the way to the right to read them).

This has been mentioned here before, but the CITY OF CORTLAND signs on
the I-86/NY 17 Corning Bypass are also parallel to the highway, for the
very same reason.

(Road trip report pending. I have about 90 minutes of taped notes to
wade through and edit down before come up with something to post.)

--
David J. Greenberger
Department of Computer Science, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

David J. Greenberger

unread,
Sep 18, 2000, 9:40:54 PM9/18/00
to
"Jason L. Bennett" <j...@borg.com> writes:

> "David J. Greenberger" wrote:
>
> > This has been mentioned here before, but the CITY OF CORTLAND signs on
> > the I-86/NY 17 Corning Bypass are also parallel to the highway, for the
> > very same reason.
> >
> > (Road trip report pending. I have about 90 minutes of taped notes to
> > wade through and edit down before come up with something to post.)
>

> Uh, Cortland on I-86? Did I miss something David?

Am I the only one who thinks that Cortland and Corning are a wee bit too
close to each other?

Jason L. Bennett

unread,
Sep 18, 2000, 9:48:57 PM9/18/00
to
"David J. Greenberger" wrote:
>
> "Jason L. Bennett" <j...@borg.com> writes:
>
> > "David J. Greenberger" wrote:
> >
> > > This has been mentioned here before, but the CITY OF CORTLAND signs on
> > > the I-86/NY 17 Corning Bypass are also parallel to the highway, for the
> > > very same reason.
> > >
> > > (Road trip report pending. I have about 90 minutes of taped notes to
> > > wade through and edit down before come up with something to post.)
> >
> > Uh, Cortland on I-86? Did I miss something David?
>
> Am I the only one who thinks that Cortland and Corning are a wee bit too
> close to each other?

Unless the Corning Bypass went northeast today, no.

David Jensen

unread,
Sep 18, 2000, 11:11:30 PM9/18/00
to
On Tue, 19 Sep 2000 01:40:54 GMT, in misc.transport.road
"David J. Greenberger" <gren...@uiuc.edu> wrote in
<4zlmwpg...@twu.net>:


>"Jason L. Bennett" <j...@borg.com> writes:
>
>> "David J. Greenberger" wrote:
>>
>> > This has been mentioned here before, but the CITY OF CORTLAND signs on
>> > the I-86/NY 17 Corning Bypass are also parallel to the highway, for the
>> > very same reason.
>> >
>> > (Road trip report pending. I have about 90 minutes of taped notes to
>> > wade through and edit down before come up with something to post.)
>>
>> Uh, Cortland on I-86? Did I miss something David?
>
>Am I the only one who thinks that Cortland and Corning are a wee bit too
>close to each other?

Now, I am confused. Did the Corning signs really say Cortland, or did
your fingers betray you?

David J. Greenberger

unread,
Sep 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM9/19/00
to
David Jensen <da...@dajensen-family.com> writes:

My brain betrayed me. (Hey, I had just returned from nearly two full
days of driving.) Corning. But I've gotten the two mixed up before.

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