Arizona HOA roads
richard
community in arizona.
Let's say the original property is subdivided into sections and many roads
are established and dedicated as "public" roads. That is, true public
roads, not just private roads for public use.
Does the HOA then have authority to fine persons who are not members of the
HOA for violating the covenants? Let alone tow their vehicles for same?
In another group a guy is continously mouthing off about how his HOA
routinely fines CB'ers, ham radio operators, and others simply for having
an antenna on their car when it's parked on the public street. One fine was
handed out simply for having a ham radio operator's license plate.
It all sounds like BS to me but in some HOA's, I can see it happening.
richard
I have now learned that is illegal for any arizona HOA to enforce parking
violations on "Dedicated" public roads. Arizona law apparently states that
basically the street has to be marked as "private property" before such
enforcement is legal. Dedication of a street has a very lax meaning. When a
property owner dedicates his land for use as a public roadway, the law says
it is not necessary for a government entity to even acknowledge the
dedication. This falls under the "common law doctrine".
Back when I was involved with a law enforcement explorer post in Ohio I had
learned of a law Ohio had. That any Ohio police officer could write various
citations on private property that was dedicated for public use. Which
includes the parking lots of the numerous businesses. So you could be cited
for failure to stop at stop sign on private property. Which really isn't
private property any more.
Paul D. DeRocco
>
> Back when I was involved with a law enforcement explorer post in Ohio I
> had
> learned of a law Ohio had. That any Ohio police officer could write
> various
> citations on private property that was dedicated for public use. Which
> includes the parking lots of the numerous businesses. So you could be
> cited
> for failure to stop at stop sign on private property. Which really isn't
> private property any more.
Interesting, but if a property owner puts up a stop sign, he presumably
wishes people would stop there, so I could imagine some owner actually
wanting the cops to enforce it. After all, there's no other way to enforce
it--I don't think a citizen's arrest would fly.
--
Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
Paul mailto:pder...@ix.netcom.com
richard
I believe in that case the citations issued by the officer would not be
legal. As the county/city government would have had to have some law making
the sign legal. At least on public roads that an HOA might consider their
jurisdiction.
On property such as a shopping mall, then yes, the property owner has the
legal right to install signs at his discretion.
Ralph Herman
(in article <15wt2xlr...@evanplatt.sux>):
In most states, STOP signs need to be written into the local municipal code
for local streets. And there are the pesky State MUTCD standards that most
HOAs do not follow.
I would like to know how the HOA would be able to enforce it, except by
revoking the right of passage in the future.
Ralph
Steve Sobol
@u5g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, jpaw...@gmail.com says...
> Actually I think it does (in Arizona). Traffic violations in Arizona
> are civil cases, so it's comparable to an officer "suing" you.
If Arizona citations are civil matters, that differs from every state
I've been in.
> himself and his case against you. I don't see a reason why a citizen
> can't do the same - in fact, I was told by a judge that I could cite a
> police officer when I tried to defend myself by saying he didn't have
> his headlights on at night - but, of course, having the notable
> disadvantage of not being able to pull anyone over makes it difficult
> to do such a citizens arrest in practice.
It's not an arrest. Arrest implies a crime took place. And in
jurisdictions where traffic citations are criminal matters (here, for
exxample, and in Ohio, where I grew up), I doubt you'd be able to do
what is being discussed.
--
Steve Sobol, Apple Valley, California, USA
sjs...@JustThe.net
richard
In most states, traffic violations are criminal matters. In Ohio, if you
fail to sign the ticket, you get yourself put in jail. Parking violations
though, are different.
In many states, the officer does not have to show up in court.
As I found out in Illinois when I got charged for "leaving the scene". Not
one officer was in court that day and the judge held the trial the same
day. When I was cited in cincinnati and challenged, the officer certainly
was in court.
Does a civilian have authority to enforce traffic violations by means of
"citizen arrest"? I don't think so. In Ohio, you need to file a formal
complaint and then an officer will make the actual arrest.
Steve Sobol
> In most states, traffic violations are criminal matters. In Ohio, if you
> fail to sign the ticket, you get yourself put in jail. Parking violations
> though, are different.
Enforcement is different, but aren't they still criminal citations?
> In many states, the officer does not have to show up in court.
> As I found out in Illinois when I got charged for "leaving the scene". Not
> one officer was in court that day and the judge held the trial the same
> day. When I was cited in cincinnati and challenged, the officer certainly
> was in court.
OK, that makes ZERO sense.
If the plaintiff doesn't show up to the trial, how are you going to have
a trial?
The cop is the representative for the plaintiff.
Mildly amusing story: Got pulled over once, driving westbound on Detroit
Avenue in Cleveland, for doing 34 in a 25. There was no speed limit sign
anywhere close. The cop actually told me "yes, there is a sign back
there, but it's very hard to see." (I couldn't believe he actually
admitted that.)
So I get home and do some homework online. Hm. The Ohio Revised Code
says that if a lower speed limit is not posted, the speed limit is 35 on
through roads and state highways...
Well, Detroit Avenue goes from downtown all the way out to Lorain. And
every last inch is state-maintained. Detroit Avenue is Alternate US 6 in
Cleveland and Lakewood, and State Route 254 from the Lakewood/Rocky
River border the rest of the way out.
So, armed with this knowledge, I entered a "not guilty" plea and awaited
my day in court.
The day of the trial, I show up in Judge Kathleen Connally's courtroom
at the Justice Center.
Of course, this being Cleveland, the cop doesn't bother showing up. So,
the judge asks me if I want to have the speeding charge dismissed.
For a split second, I considered saying "No, Your Honor." Just to make a
point.
Then, common sense took over and I actually SAID "yes."
But I walked out of the Justice Center and boy, was I annoyed that I
didn't get the chance to argue my case against the state. :)
richard
In most cities, not just Ohio, they generally post near the borders, a sign
that says something like "35 miles per hour unless posted otherwise".
You should have also gone back and taken video of that section. If the
judge can't see the sign, then he has to side with you. Then you could have
checked city ordinances and found out what the posted speed limit was. But
being an alternate state or US highway, then that speed limit is set by
Ohio DOT, regardless of city ordinances.
Near where I used to live in cincinnati, county cops would cite people for
running a particular stop sign. Until someone brought up the point that it
was difficult to see because a tree blocked the view. I think the tree got
cut down.
richard
The only way they can is mark the road as "private property".
But as I understand arizona law, once the street has been "dedicated", it
is no longer private property and can not be reversed.
Steve Sobol
@q21g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, jpaw...@gmail.com says...
> Yes thanks. Let's have a semantics circle jerk now.
I'm sorry, was I talking to you?
I thought you bozo-binned me or something?
If you don't want to talk to me, don't talk to me.
Steve Sobol
> In most cities, not just Ohio, they generally post near the borders, a sign
> that says something like "35 miles per hour unless posted otherwise".
> You should have also gone back and taken video of that section. If the
> judge can't see the sign, then he has to side with you. Then you could have
> checked city ordinances and found out what the posted speed limit was. But
> being an alternate state or US highway, then that speed limit is set by
> Ohio DOT, regardless of city ordinances.
>
You're wrong on a bunch of counts here.
** No city I know of posts signs that say XX MPH UNLESS POSTED
OTHERWISE.
** Cleveland doesn't, for sure. Argue if you wish, but I lived there for
over 30 years and I know the city like the back of my hand.
** You're also wrong about who sets speed limits. State law provides for
maximum speed limits and defaults. In many cases, municipalities ARE
allowed to post and enforce lower speed limits. Don't take my word for
it; go read section 4511 of the ORC. The law is pretty clear on this
point.
Larry Sheldon
> ** No city I know of posts signs that say XX MPH UNLESS POSTED
> OTHERWISE.
Not sure if this was Ohio-specific or not. But I'm sure I've seen sings
like that at state lines, town boundaries, everything in between in a
lot of placers around the country. I can't locate an example in my
memory and I sure can't remember none in Ohio. The key might be
"city"--I'm note sure I remember a sign like that at city limits.
--
Somebody should have said:
A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
Freedom under a constitutional republic is a well armed lamb contesting
the vote.
Requiescas in pace o email
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio
Eppure si rinfresca
ICBM Targeting Information: http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml
Larry Sheldon
*sigh* So many typos. Truly sad.
> On 9/26/2010 21:50, Steve Sobol wrote:
>
>> ** No city I know of posts signs that say XX MPH UNLESS POSTED
>> OTHERWISE.
>
> Not sure if this was Ohio-specific or not. But I'm sure I've seen sings
signs
> like that at state lines, town boundaries, everything in between in a
> lot of placers around the country. I can't locate an example in my
places
> memory and I sure can't remember none in Ohio. The key might be
one
> "city"--I'm note sure I remember a sign like that at city limits.
not
Ralph Herman
(in article <nperry-1DFF75....@news.frontiernet.net>):
> In article <8gaggo...@mid.individual.net>,
> Larry Sheldon <lfsh...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> On 9/26/2010 21:50, Steve Sobol wrote:
>>
>>> ** No city I know of posts signs that say XX MPH UNLESS POSTED
>>> OTHERWISE.
>>
>> Not sure if this was Ohio-specific or not. But I'm sure I've seen sings
>> like that at state lines, town boundaries, everything in between in a
>> lot of placers around the country. I can't locate an example in my
>> memory and I sure can't remember none in Ohio. The key might be
>> "city"--I'm note sure I remember a sign like that at city limits.
>
> New York is an example.
NYS MUTCD page 239 lists the signs at http://tinyurl.com/265hzb6
Ralph
Floyd Rogers
"Steve Sobol" <sjs...@JustThe.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.2709a6417...@news.justthe.net...
> In article <190fchm2...@evanplatt.sux>, mem...@newsguy.com says...
>> In most cities, not just Ohio, they generally post near the borders, a
>> sign
>> that says something like "35 miles per hour unless posted otherwise".
>> You should have also gone back and taken video of that section. If the
>> judge can't see the sign, then he has to side with you. Then you could
>> have
>> checked city ordinances and found out what the posted speed limit was.
>> But
>> being an alternate state or US highway, then that speed limit is set by
>> Ohio DOT, regardless of city ordinances.
>>
>
> You're wrong on a bunch of counts here.
>
> ** No city I know of posts signs that say XX MPH UNLESS POSTED
> OTHERWISE.
In WA State, it's very common for signs like that: "Entering Renton, Speed
limit 30 mph unless posted otherwise". Then, just down the road is a 35 mph
speed limit sign.
Steve Sobol
>
> On 9/26/2010 21:50, Steve Sobol wrote:
>
> > ** No city I know of posts signs that say XX MPH UNLESS POSTED
> > OTHERWISE.
>
> Not sure if this was Ohio-specific or not. But I'm sure I've seen sings
> like that at state lines, town boundaries, everything in between in a
> lot of placers around the country. I can't locate an example in my
> memory and I sure can't remember none in Ohio. The key might be
> "city"--I'm note sure I remember a sign like that at city limits.
I can say, pretty definitively, that I've not seen anything like that at
the state lines either. I've driven into or through about 20 of the 50
states. If such signs exist, they're in states or cities I've not
visisted.
Steve Sobol
npe...@rochester.rr.com says...
> New York is an example.
Hm. I used to take NJTransit into the city on a semi-regular basis. It
was a while ago, and I don't remember whether I took the train or the
bus. If I took the bus, I wasn't paying attention to any of the signs...
Larry Sheldon
http://www.johnweeks.com/highway/states/index.html?state=nj
In my minds eye I see several more black-on-white signs with the same
sort of info.
Some state (can't for the life of me remember which one -- seems like
you cross a body of water to the state line.....) has a half mile or
mile of signs (black-on-white) that recap the whole vehicle code--seems
like.
Steve Sobol
> http://www.johnweeks.com/highway/states/index.html?state=nj
I wish I knew where that sign was.
If it's on the eastern edge, near NYC, I wouldn't have noticed it as I
generally rode mass transit from my aunt's house in Bergen County, to
Port Authority. (I left my car in New Jersey.)
Driving in from Cleveland, I'd enter New Jersey at the Delaware River
crossing on I-80. I noticed all of the road signs on the freeway...
Marc Fannin
> Well, Detroit Avenue goes from downtown all the way out to Lorain. And
> every last inch is state-maintained. Detroit Avenue is Alternate US 6 in
> Cleveland and Lakewood, and State Route 254 from the Lakewood/Rocky
> River border the rest of the way out.
Clarification: All non-Interstates in Ohio cities are maintained by
the cities, even those roads on the state system, so nearly none of it
is technically "state-maintained" (254 approaching 57, which by then
is known as Ridge Rd., looks to skirt Elyria Township). I'm not sure
if this is all the relevant information, but this is found within
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4511.01 :
"(II) 'State highway' means a highway under the jurisdiction of the
department of transportation, outside the limits of municipal
corporations, provided that the authority conferred upon the director
of transportation in section 5511.01 of the Revised Code to erect
state highway route markers and signs directing traffic shall not be
modified by sections 4511.01 to 4511.79 and 4511.99 of the Revised
Code.
(JJ) 'State route' means every highway that is designated with an
official state route number and so marked."
(I've known the conditions for quite some time, but just found the
above while composing this post.)
However, in your case, it seems that the "route" definition applied
and not the "highway" one, which is what I assume that you found out
when preparing. This is from http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4511.21 ,
which seems to be to what you referred:
"(B) It is prima-facie lawful, in the absence of a lower limit
declared or established pursuant to this section by the director of
transportation or local authorities, for the operator of a motor
vehicle, trackless trolley, or streetcar to operate the same at a
speed not exceeding the following:
[snip]
(3) Thirty-five miles per hour on all state routes or through highways
within municipal corporations outside business districts, except as
provided in divisions (B)(4) and (6) of this section[....]"
So it's easy to fall into the trap of saying "state route" = "always
state-maintained", though in your case, it didn't really matter.
Side note to Steve: If you want to check up on the conditions of road
projects around the Cleveland/Akron/Lorain/Mentor area, browse Google
Earth. They just made a pass on May 30.
_________________________________________________________________________
Marc Fannin|musxf579 @hotmail.com|http://roadfan.com/ (m.t.r FAQ, etc.)
richard
> On Sep 26, 9:09 pm, Steve Sobol...wrote:
>
>> Well, Detroit Avenue goes from downtown all the way out to Lorain. And
>> every last inch is state-maintained. Detroit Avenue is Alternate US 6 in
>> Cleveland and Lakewood, and State Route 254 from the Lakewood/Rocky
>> River border the rest of the way out.
>
> Clarification: All non-Interstates in Ohio cities are maintained by
> the cities, even those roads on the state system, so nearly none of it
> is technically "state-maintained" (254 approaching 57, which by then
> is known as Ridge Rd., looks to skirt Elyria Township). I'm not sure
> if this is all the relevant information, but this is found within
> http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4511.01 :
>
I believe I was speaking of speed limits on US highways and state routes
would be set by the Ohio DOT. The law you point out is for when there are
absolutely no posted signs on that highway. The law says, within the city
limits.
Question really is, at what point in time does a roadway become undeclared
as to posted speed? What you need to do is find out if there is a city
ordinance pertaining to that section, declaring the speed limit.
When I haven't seen a sign in awhile, I normally go by what I saw last.
Here in phoenix, signs are posted fairly good. So you don't have to travel
far before you see one. I also go by the flow of the traffic.
Steve Sobol
@k30g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, musx...@kent.edu says...
> Clarification: All non-Interstates in Ohio cities are maintained by
Thanks for the corrections. The ticket and trial happened several years
ago. I haven't lived in Ohio since the end of June, 2003. :) So I'm not
surprised I screwed up.
richard
> In article <64f7cf15-f222-4675-b2ee-3c5c52355d02
> @k30g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, musx...@kent.edu says...
>
>> Clarification: All non-Interstates in Ohio cities are maintained by
>
> Thanks for the corrections. The ticket and trial happened several years
> ago. I haven't lived in Ohio since the end of June, 2003. :) So I'm not
> surprised I screwed up.
where have you been? It's been that way for decades. Let's say US 27
(colerain ave) in northside needs repair work. The city takes care of it
and they get paid by the state. Moving on up the hill into colerain
township, the county then takes over and any maintenance there is paid for
by the state to the county. Or could even be under some type of contract.
Although you might see some city or county maintenance crews on
interstates, it's probably for very short term stuff. All major long term
projects would be taken care of by contract.
Larry Sheldon
> In article <8gbs59...@mid.individual.net>, lfsh...@cox.net says...
>
>
>> http://www.johnweeks.com/highway/states/index.html?state=nj
>
> I wish I knew where that sign was.
>
> If it's on the eastern edge, near NYC, I wouldn't have noticed it as I
> generally rode mass transit from my aunt's house in Bergen County, to
> Port Authority. (I left my car in New Jersey.)
>
> Driving in from Cleveland, I'd enter New Jersey at the Delaware River
> crossing on I-80. I noticed all of the road signs on the freeway...
Truck-driver-daughter is on her way to New Jersey with a dragonfly
load--says she knows just where that sign is (but hasn't yet said where
if is).
I expect fresh pictures in the next day or so.
Larry Sheldon
> On 9/27/2010 19:17, Steve Sobol wrote:
>> In article <8gbs59...@mid.individual.net>, lfsh...@cox.net says...
>>
>>
>>> http://www.johnweeks.com/highway/states/index.html?state=nj
>>
>> I wish I knew where that sign was.
>>
>> If it's on the eastern edge, near NYC, I wouldn't have noticed it as I
>> generally rode mass transit from my aunt's house in Bergen County, to
>> Port Authority. (I left my car in New Jersey.)
>>
>> Driving in from Cleveland, I'd enter New Jersey at the Delaware River
>> crossing on I-80. I noticed all of the road signs on the freeway...
>
> Truck-driver-daughter is on her way to New Jersey with a dragonfly
> load--says she knows just where that sign is (but hasn't yet said where
> if is).
>
> I expect fresh pictures in the next day or so.
She said she just saw one for 25 on US 36 going into Brookfield, MO.
Larry Sheldon
> On 9/28/2010 10:17, Larry Sheldon wrote:
>> On 9/27/2010 19:17, Steve Sobol wrote:
>>> In article <8gbs59...@mid.individual.net>, lfsh...@cox.net says...
>>>
>>>
>>>> http://www.johnweeks.com/highway/states/index.html?state=nj
>>>
>>> I wish I knew where that sign was.
>>>
>>> If it's on the eastern edge, near NYC, I wouldn't have noticed it as I
>>> generally rode mass transit from my aunt's house in Bergen County, to
>>> Port Authority. (I left my car in New Jersey.)
>>>
>>> Driving in from Cleveland, I'd enter New Jersey at the Delaware River
>>> crossing on I-80. I noticed all of the road signs on the freeway...
>>
>> Truck-driver-daughter is on her way to New Jersey with a dragonfly
>> load--says she knows just where that sign is (but hasn't yet said where
>> if is).
>>
>> I expect fresh pictures in the next day or so.
>
> She said she just saw one for 25 on US 36 going into Brookfield, MO.
Here is the one at Macon, MO. I hope she doesn't send one from every
little town in Missouri, they are there, I think. (I knew I had seen
them, couldn't remember where. One of the aggravations I have to live
with--I can picture places I've been, can't tell you where on the planet
they are.)
http://picasaweb.google.com/LFSheldon/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCIO23bD2iajgRg&pli=1&gsessionid=Nh1KVCTqaVqKXdtTgOnoCA#5522000647301391890
for the tinyurlphobic.
Marc Fannin
> ...musxf...@kent.edu says...
>
> > Clarification: All non-Interstates in Ohio cities are maintained by
>
> Thanks for the corrections. The ticket and trial happened several years
> ago. I haven't lived in Ohio since the end of June, 2003. :) So I'm not
> surprised I screwed up.
You've also admitted here that you're not a roadgeek :)
Steve Sobol
7d5dec...@t3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, musx...@kent.edu says...
> You've also admitted here that you're not a roadgeek :)
That's right. I most certainly am not a roadgeek, just interested in
roads, and there are a lot of people here who know more than I do about
roads.
Marc Fannin
> musx...@kent.edu says...
>
> > You've also admitted here that you're not a roadgeek :)
>
> That's right. I most certainly am not a roadgeek, just interested in
> roads
Does not that make you a roadgeek...?
Larry G
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:57:08 -0700, Ralph Herman wrote:
> > On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:24:00 -0700, richard wrote
there is a road near me that is not in the state system - never built
to state specs and never upgraded to be eligible - but this is in
Virginia - one of only 4 states where the State DOT will maintain
local roads ANYHOW but even then those roads have to be built to state
specs for potential inclusion.
The rules now in my county are that if you build a subdivision road -
that it must be built to state specs.
but this is an older road that I'm talking about and over the years -
it has been "signed" by the folks that live on it as "Private - No
Trespassing" to no signage once they realized that folks like UPS
would not deliver on a non-public road and that legally even visitors
could be said to be "trespassing" if they did not have permission (and
who would they get it from?).
bottom line - it's possible to have a road that is private but open to
the public - BUT there is a question as to what happens if a member of
the public has an accident as to who is responsible if it is felt the
road design or state of maintenance contributed to the accident.
for that reason - private roads - open to the public may not be used
by school buses and postal vehicles....
Many gated communities have their post boxes out in front of the
development and kids are picked up and dropped off at the entrance.
bugo
"Steve Sobol" <sjs...@JustThe.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.270c3fa58...@news.justthe.net...
> In article <6203f7f3-8e0a-4c7c-ad7b-
> 7d5dec...@t3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, musx...@kent.edu says...
>
>
>> You've also admitted here that you're not a roadgeek :)
>
> That's right. I most certainly am not a roadgeek, just interested in
> roads, and there are a lot of people here who know more than I do about
> roads.
Me either. I hate that word.
bugo
"Marc Fannin" <musx...@kent.edu> wrote in message
news:c9cf4354-cd06-4835...@x12g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
> ...Steve Sobol...wrote:
>
>> musx...@kent.edu says...
>>
>> > You've also admitted here that you're not a roadgeek :)
>>
>> That's right. I most certainly am not a roadgeek, just interested in
>> roads
>
> Does not that make you a roadgeek...?
No. I don't "geek out" about anything but old cars. I'm interested in
roads, but not to a geeky level.
Steve Sobol
@x12g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, musx...@kent.edu says...
>
> ...Steve Sobol...wrote:
>
> > musx...@kent.edu says...
> >
> > > You've also admitted here that you're not a roadgeek :)
> >
> > That's right. I most certainly am not a roadgeek, just interested in
> > roads
>
> Does not that make you a roadgeek...?
I suppose, but I personally use that term to describe people who are a
LOT more hardcore than I am.