In trouble on a rural road--will 911 be able to find you?
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
reported that the victim of an attack dialed 911 for help, but
apparently the 911 center was unable to determine the location of the
call. It was not clear whether the 911 center had the technology to
do so or there was a flaw it. Perhaps others more familiar with
modern 911 operation can elaborate.
For full article please see:
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-15/1256781309273050.xml&coll=1
I wonder how many 911 centers in the US are properly equipped to
identify where the calling phone is.
I wonder how many places out there impose a 911 tax on phones but
divert the money to other uses.
It seems to me that anyone in trouble should use a landline phone if
at all available. Unfortunately there are few pay phones out there
these days and one might have to go to a house. I think most people
in a store, home, or office would call the police if a stranger banged
on the door and asked them to do so (I would do so merely because
someone was banging on my door). However, there are some businesses
in high crime areas where the clerks do not speak English very well
and stay locked in a booth.
For a motorist in trouble on a rural highway the situation is harder.
Most of us do not pay attention to intermediate landmarks when we
travel a road--we are looking for the distant place where we get off.
That is, if we're exiting at exit #104 and we've passed #24, we're not
gonna remember that we just passed #24. So, if we get into trouble
and call for help, we'll have little idea of where we are.
[Comments requested. Public replies, please. Thanks.]
richard
Is it the fault of the cell phone maker or the cell phone service provider?
Until cell phones came into heavy use, 911 relied on the fact that a
landline would instantly give the location. As it stands now, the only
thing your cell phone cares about is whether or not there is a signal to
use.
Then, how is your position going to be reported? The operator needs to know
your actual location so personnel can find you. Perhaps what could be
offered is a method of the cell phone having a gps system in it. When 911
is dialed, the phone immediately sends the location. At the operator's
terminal is a monitor showing the incoming call. Software then tranlsates
the location to a useable address. Or at least locate the caller on a map.
This is what I believe Onstar does. When you touch that button, they know
where you are.
I know in my travelling throughout the country, I've been in places where I
had no clues where I was. Including inside major cities. How many times
have you been going down a street looking for an address and can't find a
one? How do ya think the cops and fire departments find a location by the
address? If I can't, how can they?
Floyd Rogers
> I wonder how many 911 centers in the US are properly equipped to
> identify where the calling phone is.
It's supposed to 100% by 2012 (well, actually 95%):
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/wireless911srvc.html
Right now, my guess is that only localities (like the State of WA) that
have added a small tax to phone bills to help the providers upgrade
their services.
> I wonder how many places out there impose a 911 tax on phones but
> divert the money to other uses.
Probably depends widely. In WA State, it can't get diverted.
Note that there are two basic methods: triangulation from cell towers
using signal strength and wave polarity. This method is essentially a
software update in the tower processors and central switch, and
should be widespread at this time.
Communication with GPS-enabled cell phones. What most people
forget is that a cell phone inside a car is non-GPS-capable, unless it's
laying on the package shelf or dashboard, in line-of-sight of the sky.
FloydR
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Is it the fault of the cell phone maker or the cell phone service provider?
Or perhaps the fault of the 911 center?
> Until cell phones came into heavy use, 911 relied on the fact that a
> landline would instantly give the location. As it stands now, the only
> thing your cell phone cares about is whether or not there is a signal to
> use.
Actually, 911 was _originally_ a shorthand way of dialing for help,
originally it transmitted nothing. The idea was it'd be faster to
have a universal number than for people to remember a multitude of 7-
digit police/fire/resuce numbers that varied by community, as well as
asking an operator to make the connection. As time evolved 911 got
more sophisticated and was able to link up with the teleco database to
provide the specific address. (VOIP telephones, since they "float"
over the Internet and use their own switching protocols, had problems
sending a real address, and may still do. You get what you pay for.)
> Then, how is your position going to be reported? The operator needs to know
> your actual location so personnel can find you. Perhaps what could be
> offered is a method of the cell phone having a gps system in it. When 911
> is dialed, the phone immediately sends the location. At the operator's
> terminal is a monitor showing the incoming call. Software then tranlsates
> the location to a useable address. Or at least locate the caller on a map.
>
As far as I know, all cellphones made in the last few years include a
GPS function to report its location to a 911 center. Given the rapid
turnover in phones, I would guess the vast majority of cellphones out
there have that capability today.
However, it is not clear if 911 centers have the capability to make
use of the GPS data.
> I know in my travelling throughout the country, I've been in places where I
> had no clues where I was. Including inside major cities. How many times
> have you been going down a street looking for an address and can't find a
> one? How do ya think the cops and fire departments find a location by the
> address? If I can't, how can they?
In good city departments the police/fire/resuce are assigned specific
neighborhoods for which they get familiar with. That helps a lot in
speed and effectiveness. They also carry very detailed maps.
In modern suburbia, where Appletree Lane may be repeated in multiple
developments, aid can be delayed, especially when provided by county-
wide units that must cover a large geographic area.
Another problem today is that 911 centers support large areas instead
of individual city neighborhoods or small towns. As a result the
operators do not have the geographic knowledge they once had.
Good geographic knowledge was once a prized skill in many
organizations, public and private. I don't know if that's true
anymore.
James Robinson
> richard <mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>> Is it the fault of the cell phone maker or the cell phone service
>> provider?
>
> Or perhaps the fault of the 911 center?
This reminds me of a sad story from a couple of years ago from
Australia, where a hiker lost in the woods couldn't get help. The
person in the emergency call center kept asking for a street address to
enter into their computer response system. They apparently had no
procedure for handling calls from cell phones calling from out in the
countryside away from civilization.
Floyd Rogers
> As far as I know, all cellphones made in the last few years include a
> GPS function to report its location to a 911 center. Given the rapid
> turnover in phones, I would guess the vast majority of cellphones out
> there have that capability today.
This is not true by any means. And, as I noted, GPS signals do not
penetrate cars, houses or other enclosures unless they have a clear
view of the sky. There's a reason GPS units attach to windshields,
and that cars with built-in GPS systems have "shark-fin" antennas
on their roofs.
FloydR
Larry Sheldon
Makes you wonder why the 911 operators don't say "Please go outside, if
you can".
Also makes me wonder why people are not taught to know where they are.
Oh, wait. That would mean looking out the window from time to time.
Never mind.
--
Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics
of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Infallibility, and the ability to
learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca
ICBM Targeting Information:
http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml
gpsman
> And, as I noted, GPS signals do not
> penetrate cars, houses or other enclosures unless they have a clear
> view of the sky.
Untrue. It was the inability of older GPS receivers to detect and
decode weak and reflected signals.
With the advent of the now "older" SiRF Star III GPS chipset an
accurate fix may be obtained in previously unthinkable conditions.
http://www.gpslodge.com/archives/004566.php
SiRFstar IV brings faster GPS to smartphones
updated 11:40 am EDT, Tue July 28, 2009
http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/07/28/csr.sirfstar.iv.gps.chip/
> There's a reason GPS units attach to windshields,
> and that cars with built-in GPS systems have "shark-fin" antennas
> on their roofs.
Because those are the optimal and convenient positions for reception
and/or driver observation of the display.
-----
- gpsman
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> > Or perhaps the fault of the 911 center?
> This reminds me of a sad story from a couple of years ago from
> Australia, where a hiker lost in the woods couldn't get help. The
> person in the emergency call center kept asking for a street address to
> enter into their computer response system. They apparently had no
> procedure for handling calls from cell phones calling from out in the
> countryside away from civilization.
There are far too many stories like that.
Many 911 centers have been centralized but the training the operators
get is inadequate. Apparently they get extensive training on how to
get info out of somebody in a panic, but not much if the person simply
doesn't have the information or if the information is ambiguous. For
example, in modern suburbia served by a large 911 center it is common
to find duplicate streetnames. There are regular stories of needless
suffering as a result of rescue crews directed toward the wrong
Appletree Lane. Not helping is that many modern suburbanites don't
actually know where they live, that is, their home is in numerous
different postal, phone, municipal, school, and public safety
districts. Many suburbanites near me confuse their municipality with
their post office, though they're entirely separate names.
Other 911 centers are computerized to the extent patterns of trouble
are not noticed by humans. For example, a kid was caught in a nasty
fight and many neighbors called in. But each call was handled
completely separately in a very large center and 'fight' was a low
priority. The fight was actually a murder that the cops, if
dispatched properly and quickly, would have prevented.
I don't know very much about the design of modern 911 centers. But as
an outsider I get the impression the administrators and techies had
too much of a say in designing them as opposed to actual cops who have
experience in dispatching. My impression is that bureaucracy
triumphed over functionaltiy.
Brian M. Powell
Actually, a lot of it depends on the quality of the GPS receiver
chip. I have two GPS units: a Garmin Nuvi and a Garmin eTrex Vista
HCx high-sensitivity handheld. With the Nuvi, I get no signal unless
I'm standing outside or it is on the windshield. With the eTrex, on
the other hand, I regularly travel with it inside a book bag on the
back seat or in the trunk and I've had no problems with gaps in the
track logs it takes.
The GPS chips in cell phones must be worth something. I know my
provider, US Cellular, offered free upgrades about 2-3 years ago to
anyone with non-GPS enabled cell phones. Triangulation wouldn't be a
great solution to the location issue by itself since in a lot of rural
areas, there may be only one tower in range if there is any signal at
all.
Brian Powell
bpo...@ecsrg.com
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> This is not true by any means. And, as I noted, GPS signals do not
> penetrate cars, houses or other enclosures unless they have a clear
> view of the sky. There's a reason GPS units attach to windshields,
> and that cars with built-in GPS systems have "shark-fin" antennas
> on their roofs.
Thanks for the correction.
But it would seem to me that the general public ought to be encouraged
to use land lines to call 911 whenever possible, like if they're in a
building or home.
Many public places, such as a highway rest stop or park, still have
payphones and their primary purpose is as a free emergency phone; the
phone doesn't earn its keep as a traditional pay phone. It's cheaper
for the govt to pay to have a payphone than a dedicated "lift for aid"
line which otherwise would be required. I do wish they'd put a
prominent label on such phones "emergency phone" or such; some people
might not think to use such a phone, and some pedestals are so
discrete the phone isn't even obvious.
If someone is calling from their automobile, it wouldn't take much to
ask them to hold the phone out the car window or step outside the car,
if possible, to give a better signal. (Obviously if the motorist was
flipped over or severely injured that would be difficult, but I
suspect the majority of callers aren't in that desperate straits).
Scott M. Kozel
>
> Many public places, such as a highway rest stop or park, still have
> payphones and their primary purpose is as a free emergency phone; the
> phone doesn't earn its keep as a traditional pay phone. It's cheaper
> for the govt to pay to have a payphone than a dedicated "lift for aid"
> line which otherwise would be required. I do wish they'd put a
> prominent label on such phones "emergency phone" or such; some people
> might not think to use such a phone, and some pedestals are so
> discrete the phone isn't even obvious.
How many states have the "call state police code" posted on signs on
their highways?
--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Capital Beltway Projects http://www.capital-beltway.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
richard
Most odd. I've laid my gps unit on the floor of my safari and it had no
problems getting a signal.
When I had a sirius radio in the big truck, I definitely needed the
antenna. Guess it depends on the unit.
Floyd Rogers
> On Oct 29, 3:57 pm, "Floyd Rogers" <fbloogy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > And, as I noted, GPS signals do not
> > penetrate cars, houses or other enclosures unless they have a clear
> > view of the sky.
>
> Untrue. It was the inability of older GPS receivers to detect and
> decode weak and reflected signals.
>
> With the advent of the now "older" SiRF Star III GPS chipset an
> accurate fix may be obtained in previously unthinkable conditions.
> http://www.gpslodge.com/archives/004566.php
>
> SiRFstar IV brings faster GPS to smartphones
> updated 11:40 am EDT, Tue July 28, 2009
> http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/07/28/csr.sirfstar.iv.gps.chip/
>
Too bad, but you lose. I have a Garmin Nuvi 680, which has that
chipset, and it *HAS* to be on the windshield. It demonstrates
worse performance than my older Garmin GPS III that uses old
technology. Neither work in a house. To prove that, I turned them
both on - they're right behind me - and neither could find a signal.
The Nuvi is really nice, and uses WAAS to get better accuracy,
but it sees satellites no better than previously. In fact, it has a
tremendously hard time locking in if you're moving when you
turn it on.
Do not believe advertising.
FloydR
Floyd Rogers
> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:57:04 -0700, Floyd Rogers wrote:
>> <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote
>>> As far as I know, all cellphones made in the last few years include a
>>> GPS function to report its location to a 911 center. Given the rapid
>>> turnover in phones, I would guess the vast majority of cellphones out
>>> there have that capability today.
>>
>> This is not true by any means. And, as I noted, GPS signals do not
>> penetrate cars, houses or other enclosures unless they have a clear
>> view of the sky. There's a reason GPS units attach to windshields,
>> and that cars with built-in GPS systems have "shark-fin" antennas
>> on their roofs.
>
> problems getting a signal.
>
> When I had a sirius radio in the big truck, I definitely needed the
> antenna. Guess it depends on the unit.
(Also see my other reply to gpsman)
I just went outside to my wife's Highlander with my Nuvi. It was able
to find 6 satellites, but was not able to establish a lock until I held it
up
to one of the windows. Closing the moonroof's cover degraded some
signals. Position in the car made a lot of difference. Center wasn't
good. Up high was bad. Down low was better. Next to windows
was by far the best.
The Nuvi completely failed the other day - it had me around 200'
south of my true position, even though it was on my windshield and
had good signals. It didn't make for a good experience in using the
nav/address features.
FloydR
Floyd Rogers
Let me carefully qualify my statements
1) The Nuvi is a LOT faster to gain a lock, and does seem to have
more sensitivity.
2) The Nuvi is no more accurate (WAAS excepted) than the old one.
3) The Nuvi uses much less juice.
In no way does this change my claims: GPS has significant problems
when in a location that is not exposed to the sky.
Further, I was thinking of my son's iPhone: he turned his GPS
functions OFF, because it uses too much battery. My wife's
Blackberry Curve has it turned off or has no built-in GPS.
FloydR
Josh
My Nuvi 350 works well virtually anywhere in the car (it's usually on
the passenger seat or on the console between us), as well as inside my
house (away from the windows, with another story above it) and under
trees, but not well in some parking garages, inside my parents' older
house, and a few other places.
It highly depends on the car's frame and windshield materials (some of
the "cool car" coatings that are being proposed and are in use in some
cars wreak havoc with GPSes, cell phones, etc. A friend who installed
a roof with a radiant barrier can't get cell reception in his house
now).
But it's certainly not true to say that all GPS receivers require a
clear view of the sky at all times...
Josh
Otto Yamamoto
That's odd. I have the Nuvi 250 and I can get a fix in my apartment
sitting at the the computer(a good 10' from any window).If I put the unit
on the floor, I may temporarily lose the signal but in the main it seems
to hold.
--
'Smoking is Healthier than Fascism'
Floyd Rogers
> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:12:32 -0700, Floyd Rogers wrote:
>> "gpsman" <gps...@driversmail.com> wrote
>>> On Oct 29, 3:57 pm, "Floyd Rogers" <fbloogy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
> That's odd. I have the Nuvi 250 and I can get a fix in my apartment
> sitting at the the computer(a good 10' from any window).If I put the unit
> on the floor, I may temporarily lose the signal but in the main it seems
> to hold.
Please note that EVERY posting has noted circumstances that block signals.
911 location of cell phones remains a thorny issue fraught with all sorts of
issues: software, hardware, social, political, you name it. And physical
limitations are front and center.
Just to speculate on *my* particular circumstances - poor reception in
my house - consider it's setting. Our house is set within a northwest
mixed evergreen/deciduous forest, only about 30'-40' surrounding it
has been cleared. It has lawn surrounding 3 sides, and landscaping
and a concrete-brick paved drive on the other. The door facing
the paved drive gets fair reception; the other sides poor. The house
has concrete-tile roofing (for fire protection and longevity), and is
about 70'x30', with substantial eves (keeps off the rain and nasty
summer sun.)
I suspect that my situation among the extensive RF absorptive and
reflective elements contribute greatly to *my* experience.
Oh, and my car doesn't have a sunroof. ;-)
FloydR
PS: It's always amusing to watch the guys on NCIS hack into the
cell-phone network and precisely locate a bad guy.
Larry Sheldon
> Just to speculate on *my* particular circumstances - poor reception in
> my house - consider it's setting. Our house is set within a northwest
> mixed evergreen/deciduous forest, only about 30'-40' surrounding it
> has been cleared. It has lawn surrounding 3 sides, and landscaping
> and a concrete-brick paved drive on the other. The door facing
> the paved drive gets fair reception; the other sides poor. The house
> has concrete-tile roofing (for fire protection and longevity), and is
> about 70'x30', with substantial eves (keeps off the rain and nasty
> summer sun.)
>
> I suspect that my situation among the extensive RF absorptive and
> reflective elements contribute greatly to *my* experience.
Propagation of radio signals is always more art than
science--reflections, absorptions, and all are almost always more guess
than know, outside of a lab.
Seems like my little Palm Pilot GPS can see the birds west of me in the
house, and so on (most a clear shot, lots of windows.
I am reminded of incidents long ago (before able TV and all that.
My parents lived at the base of Mt Wilson, more or less, and most of the
LA TV stations shot over their heads, near as I could tell. (Taller
mast didn't help was one of the clues.)
The best reception came from pointing the roof-top antenna nearly 45
degrees north-and-west of the line to the mountain top.
Then reception got iffy at times.
By sitting on the roof some, I finally came to the conclusion that I was
pointing the antenna at an aluminum garage door about half-way up the
mountain in that direction. Garage door closed, good signal, garage
door open, not so good signal.
The telephone company used "billboards" (official name "passive
repeaters") to direct microwave signals into valleys.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Most odd. I've laid my gps unit on the floor of my safari and it had no
> problems getting a signal.
We have to distinguish between stand alone GPS units and a GPS
function included within a cell phone. I can't help but suspect a
standalone GPS unit, being designed as such, has superior reception to
that of one installed in a cellphone.
Cellphones vary dramatically in price, qualtiy, and functinoality.
I'd strongly suspect different models work differently. Also,
different carriers use different communication protocols (eg CDMA,
etc) which may impact performance.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> How many states have the "call state police code" posted on signs on
> their highways?
I've seen such signs, but the vast majority of motorists won't
remember the dial code. Indeed, '911' was established to be the
universal dial code for emergencies, and other codes for lesser
situations (eg 311, 511).
If anything the codes should be universal. Heck I don't think even
toll authorities are consistent with the regular codes of the state(s)
they're in.
Most highways have mileposts, but I strongly doubt the typical
motorist notices them nor cares. (I noticed on I-95, instead of a
merely a number, the milepost has "I-95" on it, the word "mile", and
the number). Fancy.
Arif Khokar
>> How many states have the "call state police code" posted on signs on
>> their highways?
> I've seen such signs, but the vast majority of motorists won't
> remember the dial code.
Both VA and WV use *77 (WV lists it as *SP on their signs). What about
other states?
Larry G
most of the newer GPS will still maintain the satellites from inside
the car.. but not sure about the phones.. but I would assume (perhaps
wrongly) that a phone by the window should be able to maintain a "fix"
but theres a second way to locate cell phones and that is by
triangulating the towers that are pinging the phone.
Larry G
> On Oct 29, 3:57 pm, "Floyd Rogers" <fbloogy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > And, as I noted, GPS signals do not
> > penetrate cars, houses or other enclosures unless they have a clear
> > view of the sky.
>
> Untrue. It was the inability of older GPS receivers to detect and
> decode weak and reflected signals.
>
> With the advent of the now "older" SiRF Star III GPS chipset an
>
> SiRFstar IV brings faster GPS to smartphones
>
> > There's a reason GPS units attach to windshields,
> > and that cars with built-in GPS systems have "shark-fin" antennas
> > on their roofs.
>
> Because those are the optimal and convenient positions for reception
> and/or driver observation of the display.
agree.. but I think folks are a bit too critical of the call
centers ...
those centers and the technology that they use unless they have the
most up-to-date equipment was never intended to "find" a cell phone
location.
It's true now.. that it's become the defacto standard but some of
these call centers just don't have the latest equipment.
Larry G
have acquired the signal can be moved inside...but they won't easily
acquire it initially from inside.
and just want to point out also.. that if not mistaken..there is at
least one court case where a magnetic gps "tracker" was put on a
suspect cars underside.. and it was used to track.. you should know
about this part Floyd.
Larry G
> "Floyd Rogers" <fbloogy...@hotmail.com> wrote
whoa.. I guess it makes sense to have the option to have the GPS
turned off...but it's obvious that could be a risky strategy if you
get in trouble.
Larry G
you mean they can't really do that.. ??? DANG!
Larry G
though the "grid" up above was evenly spaced...
Otto Yamamoto
> most of the newer GPS will still maintain the satellites from inside the
> car.. but not sure about the phones.. but I would assume (perhaps
> wrongly) that a phone by the window should be able to maintain a "fix"
> but theres a second way to locate cell phones and that is by
> triangulating the towers that are pinging the phone.
My Blackberry Storm can sometimes catch the GPS from inside a Metro-North
train. I've used that to see how fast the train was going(they hit 80 in
spots). It will also work in a vehicle at the level of the radio. My LG
Dare will do likewise. The Blackberry and my Palm Pre also have a port of
the Google Maps, which will initially locate you by triangulating the
mobile towers.
Floyd Rogers
> ...
Anyone catch the story about some guys hiking the Grand Canyon
and punching the assistance button on their emergency locator
because they were tired and out of water? Not once, but
three times!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33470581/
Clark F Morris
<lfsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Floyd Rogers wrote:
>> <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote
>>> As far as I know, all cellphones made in the last few years include a
>>> GPS function to report its location to a 911 center. Given the rapid
>>> turnover in phones, I would guess the vast majority of cellphones out
>>> there have that capability today.
>>
>> This is not true by any means. And, as I noted, GPS signals do not
>> penetrate cars, houses or other enclosures unless they have a clear
>> view of the sky. There's a reason GPS units attach to windshields,
>> and that cars with built-in GPS systems have "shark-fin" antennas
>> on their roofs.
>
>Makes you wonder why the 911 operators don't say "Please go outside, if
>you can".
>
>Also makes me wonder why people are not taught to know where they are.
>
>Oh, wait. That would mean looking out the window from time to time.
As someone who sometimes loses track of where on the road he is and
who doesn't keep track of the last kilometer post he passed on NS 101
(super 2 and freeway depending on section), it isn't that simple. In
the case of the priest he was calling from Chatham and the call was
routed to Trenton, 40+ miles and 3 or 4 counties away. Addresses can
be ambiguous in the newer suburbs and then there are cases of
communities with the same name in the state or names with subtle
differences like Dove and Dover Township. There are multiple
Lawrencetowns in Nova Scotia and multiple Brooklyns.
>
>Never mind.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> agree.. but I think folks are a bit too critical of the call
> centers ...
>
> those centers and the technology that they use unless they have the
> most up-to-date equipment was never intended to "find" a cell phone
> location.
It's been a standard for cellphones to have GPS for emergency locating
for several years now. Further, as mentioned, many places charge a
911 tax to pay for new gear and have upgraded their 911 centers.
Unlike the past, communications terminal equipment obsoletes quickly
and is often upgraded.
So yes, when people have paid the tax but don't have anything to show
for it I think valid questions are most certainly raised.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> My Blackberry Storm can sometimes catch the GPS from inside a Metro-North
> train. I've used that to see how fast the train was going(they hit 80 in
> spots).
Most electronic watches and other gear have stopwatches built in. You
can time the time it takes for the train to pass two mileposts to get
its speed.
On the northeast corridor, Amtrak hits 120 mph, (that's a mile every
30 seconds, right?)
Larry G
are there any stats available that show the 9-11 call centers ability
to track GPS?
this issue comes up fairly frequently and it appears that more often
than not..the call centers say they can't really track the cell phones
that easily or that accurately.
and let me give an example... most folks now carry cell phones.. and
we have a continuing series of abductions and it seems to me.. that
although they "eventually" find these phones.. it takes a while.. they
are not found quickly.
also.. we often know who the bad guys are - and know they use cell
phones - even the pay-per-use ones.. but unlike CSI... we seem unable
to track them even when we get a search warrant ...remember the
Patriot Act?
I'm starting to digress a little here but I think that the full use of
a new technology by the government can lag by years... and does
tollboothrob
older style of addressing, to "city-style addressing."
For example, where I lived most of my life in Buckhannon, Upshur
County, West Virginia, a typical address outside the city limits might
be:
RR 2 Box 41
or
HC 36 Box 45
leaving you with no idea where the place actually is. The rural route
may not even be one single road, but be used for multiple roads.
Upshur County, and many other counties in WV and elsewhere, are trying
to migrate to these city-style addresses. Some are even taking photos
of residences so the exact location and a photo come up on the 911
operator's screen when a call is received. Residents of Upshur County
in particular have been speaking out against the changes, citing
inconveniences and costs invovlved. I think it is a major public
safety issue that is a long time coming in being corrected. I would
think having EMS and fire being able to locate you in a timely matter
is worth the inconveniences. I, too, growing up had one of these
addresses, and always had problems ordering things online or over the
phone, as they would not believe it is a physical address.
Larry G
I would think locating cell phones in parts of WVA would be very
challenging.
is that not the case?
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> older style of addressing, to "city-style addressing."
Even in cities, buildings which once were commonly listed as "Broad &
Market Streets" are now shown as "1313 Broad Street".
I think the post office likes city style addresses better, too, for
ease in automation. (Though letters I mail using the old style of
address still get there. Remember a major intersection is easy.)
Larry Sheldon
"HC"? I've never seen that one before.
I think "RR" is modernized "RFD". (Rural Route) and (Rural Free
Delivery), both Post Office terms for mail delivery that was contract out.
I think.
Eons ago I work on a project to produce telephone books (I can explain
what those were) from the service order data. Carmel-by-the-Sea was a
huge headache for programmers trying to recognize addresses there
because there were none.
Every house or business was identified by the nearest intersection
(Broadway and Elm). I guess the Fire Department depended on being able
to, see the smoke.
Informally, people around here do something like that (The nearest
WallyWorld is said to be "at 180th and Center" even though its address
is 18201 Wright St.)
tollboothrob
> tollboothrob wrote:
> > HC 36 Box 45
> "HC"? I've never seen that one before.
>
I've never been able to locate much information on HC routes, but I
believe they are called "Highway Contract" routes, and essentially
perform the same as a rural route. I'm also unsure of the criteria for
using one or the other, or for their existence at all. I know quite a
few people that still use them, but that wil change with the new
addressing the county is implementing. Also, I know of people that
still use just "General Delivery." Talk about living in the country...
Larry Sheldon
I think "General Delivery" means "hold at Post Office for Pickup".
tollboothrob
> I think "General Delivery" means "hold at Post Office for Pickup".
As far as I know, that's what it means. I should've clarified in the
post.
Rick
"HC" stands for "Hired Carrier". These are routes so remote that the
Postal Service contracts the delivery to a private contractor.
Larry Sheldon
I think the "RR"s and RFDs are (or might be) contracted out as well.
I'm pretty sure our mail is delivered by a contractor mot of the time.
And I'm not sure it is even an "RR" anymore.
Marc Fannin
> On Nov 20, 12:44 am, tollboothrob...wrote:
>
> > [Larry Sheldon wrote:]
Just found a source that says that the name is actually on-topic to
this group: "Highway Contract Route".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_routes
(Don't worry, that article has its own sources)
_________________________________________________________________________
Marc Fannin|musxf579 @hotmail.com|http://roadfan.com/ (m.t.r FAQ, etc.)