Proper way to pronounce Van Wyck Expressway
Mikey
heard it pronounced two ways:
- Van Wick (rhymes with "brick")
- Van Wyke (rhymes with "bike")
I've even heard the "Van" part pronounced as "Von", but the traffic
reporters seem to say that phonetically. For the second word they use
either pronounciation.
For the non-NYers here, the Van Wyck expressway is a north-south
thoroughfare in New York City's borough of Queens, with a southern terminus
at JFK airport. An elevated light-rail train is currently going up in its
median.
----------------
Mikey
aveenyu...@aol.com
(remove "urclothes" to reply)
Danny Lieberman
It seemd to me that some years ago it was always pronounced with a
short vowel sound (Van Wick). And then all of a sudden I started to
hear some traffic reporters pronounce it the other way, which always
sounded wrong to me.
So, a couple of years ago I met a man who's last name was Van Wyck,
who in fact said he was descended from the Mayor of New York City,
Robert Van Wyck. He confirmed that the family pronunciation was
with a short vowel sound.
--
Danny Lieberman
d...@panix.com
N.W.Perry
"Danny Lieberman" <d...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:942hf0$nkb$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> An excellent question and Ive often wondered myself.
>
> It seemd to me that some years ago it was always pronounced with a
> short vowel sound (Van Wick). And then all of a sudden I started to
> hear some traffic reporters pronounce it the other way, which always
> sounded wrong to me.
My impression is that it is Van Wike, the long vowel.
>
> So, a couple of years ago I met a man who's last name was Van Wyck,
> who in fact said he was descended from the Mayor of New York City,
> Robert Van Wyck. He confirmed that the family pronunciation was
> with a short vowel sound.
Interesting, as I'm pretty sure the original Dutch would have been more
towards the long sound. In fact, would it not have been spelt with the Dutch
letter IJ, which is kind of like English long A with maybe a shade of short
I?
Danny Lieberman
>My impression is that it is Van Wike, the long vowel.
>> So, a couple of years ago I met a man who's last name was Van Wyck,
>> who in fact said he was descended from the Mayor of New York City,
>> Robert Van Wyck. He confirmed that the family pronunciation was
>> with a short vowel sound.
>Interesting, as I'm pretty sure the original Dutch would have been more
>towards the long sound. In fact, would it not have been spelt with the Dutch
>letter IJ, which is kind of like English long A with maybe a shade of short
>I?
Well, I wont cringe if you dont say it your way near me. But if
the subject is really worth pursuing I'd check the geneology and
history of the Van Wyck family.
And it's funny becuase I would never dispute that the name WYCKOFF
is pronounced "Why-Koff". There's a number of streets named Wyckoff,
particularly around Ridgewood. Having read up on Pieter Claesen Wyckoff
recently, it is told that he made up the name Wyckoff after he came and
lived in Breukelyn in the 1640s.
--
Danny Lieberman
d...@panix.com
Ed (NY)
whether Weimar was pronounced "Wy-mar" or "Vy-mar." They finally stopped a
German fellow and asked him which was the correct pronunciation, to which he
replied "Wy-mar." They thanked him, to which he replied, "You're velcome."
Winston969
>
>It seemd to me that some years ago it was always pronounced with a
>short vowel sound (Van Wick). And then all of a sudden I started to
>hear some traffic reporters pronounce it the other way, which always
>sounded wrong to me.
I have always heard it as Van Wick.
Winston Brownlow
David Jensen
"N.W.Perry" <per...@frontiernet.net> wrote in
<942jp5$1ec6$1...@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net>:
Then we're back to what name we are talking about the proper
pronunciation of. If we are pronouncing van Wijk (the probable Dutch
spelling), I'd agree, but this change in spelling appears to imply a
change in "proper" pronunciation, too.
Dave Jensen, who has many friends and relatives whose families have
given up on the "proper" pronunciation for a Northern European "J", but
knows only one family that changed the spelling of their name to an
initial "Y" to give their neighbors a clue how to pronounce it.
Bill D
Danny Lieberman <d...@panix.com> wrote:
>And it's funny becuase I would never dispute that the name WYCKOFF
>is pronounced "Why-Koff". There's a number of streets named Wyckoff,
>particularly around Ridgewood.
Streets, hell, there's a whole *town*. Or borough. Or whatever. (I
grew up in NJ and *still* can't get the rules for naming
municipalities straight.)
Bill
--
Bill D <bi...@netway.com> DoD #2190
Peter T. Daniels
Which actually indicates that (in his dialect, anyway) "Wy-mar" is
correct -- since he'd have no compunctions about using "v" for the
letter "W"!
There's lots of variation in German dialects, so almost anything you try
is probably going to be right _somewhere_ in Germany, Switzerland, or
Austria (or Liechtenstein).
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Steven M. O'Neill
Once I asked a Spanish-from-Spain person which sounded better for
"calle", cal-yeh or ca-yeh. She claimed that they sounded identical.
Steve
--
Steven O'Neill ste...@panix.com
www.cars-suck.org
Siebrand Tilma
<per...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
[About pronunciation of Van Wyck]
>My impression is that it is Van Wike, the long vowel.
>Interesting, as I'm pretty sure the original Dutch would have been more
>towards the long sound. In fact, would it not have been spelt with the Dutch
>letter IJ, which is kind of like English long A with maybe a shade of short
>I?
Nowadays it would be written in Dutch as Van Wijk, but Van Wyck is an
older form of the same name. It does rhyme with 'bike'.
A 'wijk' is a small place or a part of a bigger place. There are
several placenames which end with '-wijk' in the Netherlands and Van
Wyck's family probably lived in one of them.
Groeten, Siebrand
Smg1062
David J. Greenberger
> Does anyone know the definitive proper way to pronounce "Van Wyck"? I've
> heard it pronounced two ways:
>
> - Van Wick (rhymes with "brick")
> - Van Wyke (rhymes with "bike")
Mayor Van Wyck, IINM, pronounced it "wike." New Yorkers almost
exclusively pronounce it "wick." As for which is proper -- is it proper
to pronounce it the way the holder of the name pronounced it or is it
proper to pronounce it the way its users have pronounced it for
generations? You make the call.
Better yet, avoid the issue and take the Cross Island instead. (It'll
probably save you time anyway.) Or make like a non-New Yorker and
pronounce it "eye six seventy-eight."
--
David J. Greenberger
Frank Curcio
>Streets, hell, there's a whole *town*. Or borough. Or whatever. (I
>grew up in NJ and *still* can't get the rules for naming
>municipalities straight.)
>
Bill, if I know that it's a municipality but don't know whether it's a city,
town, township, borough/boro or village, I usually say something like "there's
a whole 'municipality'..." Can't go wrong there, especially since the rules
are even more confusing - as in the Township of the Village of South Orange.
If it's a placename, I usually say "there's a place named..."
Regards,
Frank
N.W.Perry
"Siebrand Tilma" <S.M....@student.tudelft.nl> wrote in message
news:3a65ae67...@news.tudelft.nl...
> Nowadays it would be written in Dutch as Van Wijk, but Van Wyck is an
> older form of the same name. It does rhyme with 'bike'.
>
> A 'wijk' is a small place or a part of a bigger place. There are
> several placenames which end with '-wijk' in the Netherlands and Van
> Wyck's family probably lived in one of them.
As in, the Manor of Rensselaerwyck.
Winston969
>exclusively pronounce it "wick."
Yup. I have never, ever heard anyone say Van Wyke before.
> is it proper
>to pronounce it the way the holder of the name pronounced it or is it
>proper to pronounce it the way its users have pronounced it for
>generations? You make the call.
Well this brings up the whole proper way to pronounce Rensselaer thing.
>Or make like a non-New Yorker and
>pronounce it "eye six seventy-eight."
We may disagree as to whether it is Van Wick or Van Wycke, but one thing we can
ALL agree on is that it should NEVER be pronounced "eye six seventy eight."
:-)
Winston Brownlow
Winston969
>>grew up in NJ and *still* can't get the rules for naming
>>municipalities straight.)
>>
>
>Bill, if I know that it's a municipality but don't know whether it's a city,
>town, township, borough/boro or village, I usually say something like "there's
>a whole 'municipality'..." Can't go wrong there, especially since the rules
>are even more confusing - as in the Township of the Village of South Orange.
>
>If it's a placename, I usually say "there's a place named..."
It seems like Jersey's municipal system is unnecessarily complicated. New
York's is actually easy to understand (counties have towns, villages are in
towns, cities are not). Although I wish that town government would be
abolished, and that intercounty villages could be prohibited. Furthermore, why
are there so few actual villages? I wish that evey hamlet could automatically
become a village upon a certain population threshold. How many non village
hamlets do think there are in NYS? And there are way too many cities (Sherill,
Oneida).
Winston Brownlow
N.W.Perry
"Winston969" <winst...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010117142316...@ng-fx1.aol.com...
> It seems like Jersey's municipal system is unnecessarily complicated. New
> York's is actually easy to understand (counties have towns, villages are
in
> towns, cities are not). Although I wish that town government would be
> abolished, and that intercounty villages could be prohibited. Furthermore,
why
> are there so few actual villages? I wish that evey hamlet could
automatically
> become a village upon a certain population threshold. How many non village
> hamlets do think there are in NYS? And there are way too many cities
(Sherill,
> Oneida).
A number of Village have gone the other way, and been dissolved into plain
hamlets. Examples:
Mooers (still has full village line signage)
Elizabethtown
Westport
Fort Covington
Bloomingdale
Savannah
Friendship
Fillmore
Schenevus
Newfield I think
So apparently some people disagree with your village ideas. There are a
great many sizeable hamlets that are larger than many villages. And then
there's Long Island, where huge unincorporated areas with real centers
exist. Some of the larger hamlets that never were villages are:
Frewsburg
Eden
Honeoye
Carmel
Chemung
Brewerton
etc...
danielk...@my-deja.com
Although I wish that town government would be
> abolished, and that intercounty villages could be prohibited.
Why split up existing village governments, and prohibit new governments
that people want to form, just for anality's sake?
> Furthermore, why
> are there so few actual villages? I wish that evey hamlet could
automatically
> become a village upon a certain population threshold.
If the residents of a hamlet want to become a village and pay the extra
taxes that it entails, there is already a straightforward way for them
to do it. See http://www.assembly.state.ny.us/cgi-bin/claws?law=129
for more than you wanted to know about villages.
-Dan
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
mass...@my-deja.com
Believe it or not, someone wrote a book on this. New Jersey's Multiple
Municipal Madness, by Alan J. Karcher. Traces the misconfiguration
blues back to the original deeds to the colony. An interesting read, if
you're from NJ or have any interest in it.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0813525667/qid=979767098/sr=1-
3/ref=sc_b_3/107-9905557-7172539
Incidentally, it was only recently that I learned that there are still
many places in the US without any form of municipal government. I never
quite understood that (having been born in NJ, which was either the
only fully-incorporated state at independence, or was the first to be
so thereafter). At the same time, here in Massachusetts, county
government hardly exists (mostly just courts).
--
"Obviously when you're looking for a large government subsidy for a
private organization, to pay one employee $160 million is of concern," -
- Brian Honan, Boston City Councillor, on the Red Sox' signing of Manny
Ramirez during their push for $212 million in city funds.
Jason L. Bennett
>
> New York's is actually easy to understand (counties have towns,
> villages are in towns, cities are not). Although I wish that town
> government would be abolished, and that intercounty villages could
> be prohibited. Furthermore, why are there so few actual villages?
> I wish that evey hamlet could automatically become a village upon
> a certain population threshold. How many non village hamlets do
> think there are in NYS? And there are way too many cities (Sherill,
> Oneida).
There are very good reasons for why a village in NYS should be
dissolved. Mentioned earlier that taxes would be less. And that's
just for starters. Towns are usually larger and have more resources
to draw upon that most small villages. Mentioned also were the former
Allegany County villages of Friendship and Fillmore. Friendship, for
as long as I can recall, has only ever been a town, but you sure can
tell that there was once a village there. Fillmore has only recently
lost its village status, maybe within the past 4 years. If anything,
the towns and cities should be the primary units of local governments
below the county level. The "village" boundaries should also remain,
but it shouldn't be a unit of government.
In the town of Whitestown alone, there are 5 policing agencies:
Whitestown PD, New York Mills PD, Oriskany PD, Whitesboro PD, and
Yorkville PD. Note that the last four are village PDs and the first
is the town PD, which covers ALL four villages! Talk about a
duplication of service, and waste of taxes to boot.
I wouldn't mind seeing the village of Oriskany absolving its village
trustee board, mayor, and other village services and merging them into
the town of Whitestown.
Mentioning New York Mills brings up the point about cross muncipality
incorporated villages. I don't see what the whole problem is here
except for the fact that such things are little anomolies that lets
others know we're New York and we "march to the beat of our own
drummers".
As for the cities, maybe a good way to merge villages and towns
together are to create "city-towns" like Rome and Oneida. That's what
should happen to Wellsville as it is the largest village in Allegany
County.
Jason L. Bennett
Oriskany, NY
--
When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire
Department usually uses water.
Phil Kane
>Mayor Van Wyck, IINM, pronounced it "wike." New Yorkers almost
>exclusively pronounce it "wick." As for which is proper -- is it proper
>to pronounce it the way the holder of the name pronounced it or is it
>proper to pronounce it the way its users have pronounced it for
>generations? You make the call.
And then we get into the "How-stun" v "Hew-stun" discussion.....
(My wife used to live in Hew-stun Texas while I hung around
How-stun Street when it was the boundary of "the Lower East
Side").
--
==> Watch the Doors <==
Phil Kane
Robert Coe
wrote:
: Dave Jensen, who has many friends and relatives whose families have
: given up on the "proper" pronunciation for a Northern European "J", but
: knows only one family that changed the spelling of their name to an
: initial "Y" to give their neighbors a clue how to pronounce it.
"I think you may be just the person we're looking for. Where did you learn to
program like that?"
"Yale."
"Well, you're hired. What's your name?"
"Yonson."
--
___ _ - Bob
/__) _ / / ) _ _
(_/__) (_)_(_) (___(_)_(/_____________________________________ b...@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, MA 01776-2120 USA ** 978-443-3265
MCT
In most parts of New England, because of the local-government and
civic-identity importance assigned to towns, incorporated "village"-type
entities (or "boroughs", etc.) tend to be rare and/or relatively
unimportant. MA, NH and RI have no such legal enities at all.
And most New England cities cover entire town-sized areas because most
are former towns that simply grew too large for a town meeting form of
government. Even Boston was once a town.
(With regard to the second statement, Vermont is an exception; Vermont
has incorporated villages, and most Vermont cities are former villages,
like their New York counterparts.
On paper, the relationship between towns and cities in Conecticut is
different from the rest of New England, but the second statement is
valid for Connecticut in practice if not in theory.)
MCT
But how towns and villages fit into the New Jersey municipality
structure have always puzzled me. New Jeresy probably has the most
complex municipality structure of any state, at least on paper to an
outside observer (maybe it makes perfect sense to state residents).
Different counties within the state don't even seem to be on the same
page.
Compared to the other types of municipalities, there are relatively few
towns and villages. Not every county has towns, and only a few have
villages.
In some counties, boroughs don't seem to have upgraded to city status
until they have a fairly large population. In others, there are hardly
any boroughs, and there are incorporated cities with only a few hundred
people.
Some of the more urbanized counties have townships that seem to be very
borough- or city-like in character. Essex County has several townships
which are former boroughs or cities that changed to a township form of
government for some reason.
Is a town basically a large borough, or is it something along the lines
of a New York/New England town? Given that a New Jersey borough is
somewhat analagous to a village in a midwestern state, what's the
difference between a New Jersey village and a New Jersey borough?
The whole region of the country around NJ seems to be a hotbed of states
with complex, unusual and/or overly numerous municipalities. NY, PA,
and OH are definitely right up there. CT would have been a contender,
too, back in the days when boroughs were more numerous and back before
most of the "city-within-a-town" municpalities were eliminated through
consolidation. The municipal structures of all the New England States,
while not necessarily complicated, are certainly very unusual, and often
poorly understood by those not familiar with them.
Paul S. Wolf
Ohio is quite simple. All land is either in an independent city, in an
independent village, in a village within a township, or in a township
(but not within a village).
All 88 counties are/were divided into townships. As areas decide to
incorporate, they become villages (or cities if they have more than 5000
residents). Once the population of a village (as determined by Census)
passes 5000, they automatically become Cities. IF a village is
incorporated within a township, it remains part of the township, so
there is that overlap, but if all parts of the township incorporate or
are annexed, then the township ceases to exist. That last happened in
this county when Cleveland and Fairview Park annexed all of old
Riveredge Township, just North of the Airport. At the time of the
annexations, there were NO residents of the township, as all land in the
township (about 1/10 sq. mi.) was either commercial, part of the NASA
Research Center, or owned by the airport as clear zone. And once a
village becomes a city, then it no longer is part of the township.
In this county, for example, there are 38 cities, 19 villages, and 2
townships. Chagrin Falls Village is within Chagrin Falls Township, but
the Township is so small (<100 residents) that AFAIK, the Village
provides Police, Fire, and other services to the residents of the
Township, even though there is still a Board of Township Trustees and a
vote to merge was rejected a number of years ago. Olmsted Township has
no villages within it (and has a population way over 5000, so if it
would incorporate, it would immediately become a city).
In order to incorporate, all adjacent cities have to agree to the
incorporation, and in the case of Olmsted Township, they won't. Efforts
to merge with Olmsted Falls also failed. Instead, the adjacent cities
have annexed large portions over the years. In contrast to that, most
of old Warrensville Township incorporated as Highland Hills Village,
concurrent with the annexation of the other portions by Orange Village,
and the Cities of Beachwood and Warrensville Heights, at which the
Township ceased to exist.
--
Paul S. Wolf, PE mailto:paul...@cuyctyengineers.org
Traffic Engineer, Cuyahoga County Engineer's Office - Cleveland, Ohio
Sandor G
news:3a6715c3$0$35021$53a6...@news.erinet.com...
> In order to incorporate, all adjacent cities have to agree to the
> incorporation, and in the case of Olmsted Township, they won't. Efforts
> to merge with Olmsted Falls also failed. Instead, the adjacent cities
> have annexed large portions over the years. In contrast to that, most
> of old Warrensville Township incorporated as Highland Hills Village,
> concurrent with the annexation of the other portions by Orange Village,
> and the Cities of Beachwood and Warrensville Heights, at which the
> Township ceased to exist.
Our next possible test case will be Orange township in southern Delaware
County. If the census gives it 5,000+ citizens, rumor has it that it will
try to make the entire township a village. The reason, to prevent the
Cities of Westerville & Columbus from annexing any more land (the entire
Polaris area is Columbus). Both of them will protest if allowed to.
> --
> Paul S. Wolf, PE mailto:paul...@cuyctyengineers.org
> Traffic Engineer, Cuyahoga County Engineer's Office - Cleveland, Ohio
--
Sandor G
"I'm not from here" - Senior Geography Student at a Ohio State University
lacking a football coach
"I Just live here." - The Manufactured Home Capital of Ohio
-- James McMurtry
"Rocks are my pillow
The cold ground my bed
Highway is my home" -- Magic Slim
Frank Curcio
maggie...@webtv.net (MCT) writes:
>I understand what a city is, what a borough is, and what a township is.
>But how towns and villages fit into the New Jersey municipality
>structure have always puzzled me. New Jeresy probably has the most
>complex municipality structure of any state, at least on paper to an
>outside observer (maybe it makes perfect sense to state residents).
>Different counties within the state don't even seem to be on the same
>page.
Actually it's quite simple. Every inch of land is in an incorporated
municipality. Every municipality is in a county. The municipality selecys
what form of government it wants to have: city, town, township, borough.boro,
or village.
Originally, the form of municipal government determined how you voted for
council/commission - by wards or at large; and how you voted for mayor -
directly or if the council/commission selected a member to be mayor for the
year. Also determined if the council made up the budget or if the mayor
submitted the budget to the council.
Mostly the difference was stuff that didn't matter diddly to the locals - like,
who cares if you pay your taxes to a township commission or a city tax board,
you still gotta pay!
The city form of government had the strongest mayor, ideal for a highly
populated area, but worked in small cities with populations less than 5000 as
well. The township form of government originally had the weakest mayor, great
in rural areas. The forms in-between varied in strength (i.e., power) of mayor
and were ideal for municipalities located between urban areas and rural areas.
The strength of the mayor increasing the nearer you got to urban areas.
What is the municipal madness is not the forms of government, but the sheer
number of municipalities - nearly 600 in this tiny state. That means
inefficient duplication of school districts, police departments, fire
departments and districts, rescue squad districts, etc.
IMO, New Jersey needs no more than 20 municipalities - each county would be
one municipality (with Essex and Hudson merged). Can you say snowball's
chance.
Regards,
Frank
mass...@my-deja.com
New Jersey, freak of government:
New Jersey has 566 municipalities. In one state. With an average area
of less than 14 square miles. Bergen County, the most populous, has 70
municipalities averaging under 3.4 square miles.
New Jersey has had a number of quirky situations whereby laws made it
easy at various times for villages/boroughs to secede from the
townships which begat them. IIRC, everything was a township at first,
and boroughs/villages either existed within them or (later) on their
own. (Forgive me if I'm mistaken on any of this, but it gets way out of
hand after a while.) At one time, I think, there was an
unconstitutional system of representation wherein each incorporated
municipality had a vote, leading to a flurry of incorporations. The
present system was standardized in the 1890's (apparently after a
school-districting panic which lead to the creation of scores of new
boroughs in that decade). There are now definitions based not on
relative place in the state government, but rather setup of internal
governance within the municipality. So a village in NJ is not like a
village everywhere else. It just happens to share the name.
See the following (in increasing order of detail, more or less):
http://www.cityconnections.com/njleag/types.html
http://www.lwvnj.org/guide/municip.html
http://www.icsoftware.com/aljbs/html/nj_municipal_government.html
http://www.state.nj.us/governor/proptax/report/homerule.htm
And of course, once again I recommend the late Alan Karcher's "New
Jersey's Multiple Municipal Madness." Gold mine of this stuff. I need
to go back and read it again, this nonsense gets so confusing.
Paul S. Wolf
>
> Paul S. Wolf <Paul...@cuyctyengineers.org> wrote in message
> news:3a6715c3$0$35021$53a6...@news.erinet.com...
>
> > In order to incorporate, all adjacent cities have to agree to the
> > incorporation, and in the case of Olmsted Township, they won't.
> > Efforts to merge with Olmsted Falls also failed. Instead, the
> > adjacent cities have annexed large portions over the years. In
> > contrast to that, most of old Warrensville Township incorporated as
> > Highland Hills Village, concurrent with the annexation of the other
> > portions by Orange Village, and the Cities of Beachwood and
> > Warrensville Heights, at which the Township ceased to exist.
>
> Our next possible test case will be Orange township in southern
> Delaware County. If the census gives it 5,000+ citizens, rumor has it
> that it will try to make the entire township a village. The reason,
> to prevent the Cities of Westerville & Columbus from annexing any more
> land (the entire Polaris area is Columbus). Both of them will protest
> if allowed to.
I believe they have that right and power.
The only reason Highland Hills was able to incorporate, was that the
City of Cleveland owned the majority of the land (mostly vacant land or
parts of the old workhouse/jail, a golf course and a cemetery), and
wanted to turn the vacant portions over to a developer for a major mixed
use development (it was the Figgie Corp. - now the Jacobs Group is doing
the development). They worked out a joint development agreement to
share income taxes in each of the annexed areas, and the part in
Highland Hills, between Orange, Warr. Hts, Highland Hills, Beachwood,
and Cleveland. Part of the agreement was to allow HH to incorporate.
Keep in mind that Townships can NOT levy local income taxes. Shaker
Hts. had to agree too, even though they weren't a party to the
agreement, but because they abut the old township.
Winston969
Thats interesting, however I favor (at least for NYS municipalites), that
cities be consitutionally ordained and the number thereof capped at probably 20
or 25. Here are the cities I would propose for NYS (not including NYC, that
should be a separate discussion).
Yonkers
New Rochelle
White Plains
Newburgh
Poughkeepsie
Kingston
Albany
Troy
Schenectady
Saratoga Springs
Utica
Rome
Syracuse
Watertown
Binghamton
Elmira
Ithaca
Rochester
Buffalo
Niagara Falls
Jamestown
Auburn
Plattsburgh
Mount Vernon
Glens Falls
Winston Brownlow
Winston969
>number of municipalities - nearly 600 in this tiny state. That means
>inefficient duplication of school districts, police departments, fire
>departments and districts, rescue squad districts, etc.
Personally, I think that big states that are very generous with gov services
(such as NY and NJ) should have a unified state government, meaning that the
municipalities would provide absolutley no services (with the exception IMO of
NYC in NY), and that the state should provide all services, with brach offices
in different places. In my view, the local governments, (counties, cities,
villages, etc) would be limited to picking local judges, serving as
advisors/coordinators for all state services provided in that jurisdiction, and
as ombudspeople to represent their constituients on a more personal, local,
level. In my view, there would be no local government departments, just the
board and executive, and the state would pay their salaries. So all taxes would
be consolidated to the state.
Winston Brownlow
Rob Woiccak
>Actually it's quite simple. Every inch of land is in an incorporated
>municipality. Every municipality is in a county. The municipality
>selecys what form of government it wants to have: city, town, township,
>borough.boro, or village.
For some reason, I was under the impression that each NJ county has one
borough -- sort of a county seat. Is that true?
Rob
Jason L. Bennett
What becomes of the current cities NYS has that are under 20,000 with
your plan? Villages?
mass...@my-deja.com
You're not the only one to have ideas along these lines, though you're
the first I'v heard advocating anything as extreme as abolishing
municipal government altogether. A 1998 NJ state report on property
taxes had a sub-section on the problems of home rule (to which I linked
in another message, but here it is anyway:
http://www.state.nj.us/governor/proptax/report/homerule.htm).
It contains the following bewildering statement:
"Municipalities aren't the only units of local government that have
proliferated. The number of counties in New Jersey increased from 13 in
1800 to the present 21 by the time of the Civil War. Similarly, New
Jersey's 389 school districts in 1900 became the 611 school districts
we have today - more than Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, and West
Virginia combined. Add to the counties, municipalities, and school
districts New Jersey's 300 local authorities and 188 fire districts --
all with tax- or fee-levying authority -- and it is easy to understand
why some assert that New Jersey has more government per capita than any
other state."
Winston969
>What becomes of the current cities NYS has that are under 20,000 with
>your plan? Villages?
Yeah.
Winston Brownlow
Jason L. Bennett
>
> >
> >What becomes of the current cities NYS has that are under 20,000 with
> >your plan? Villages?
>
> Yeah.
That's just silly. Don't pester with these trivial things. Can't you
toward your energies at something more notable, like, say, oh, I don't
know...
...finding out the fundamental differences between towns, villages,
cities & counties in New York State. There, now, that ought to keep
even my busy for a few days!
Winston969
>the first I'v heard advocating anything as extreme as abolishing
>municipal government altogether
I wasnt advocating abolishing it at all. I would still favor more streamlined
local governments, just without the taxing authority and servicing burden. I
would favor all counties outside of NYC having a Board of Supervisors of five
members, four supervisors elected from population based districts and one
executive supervisor appointed by the Governor with the consent of the Senate.
I would also favor all cites having a Common Council of three members, two
councillors elected from two population based districts and one mayor appointed
by the Governor with the consent of the Assembly. I would also favor villages
having a single at large elected trustee. I do think that town government,
school districts, fire protection districts, and the like should be completley
abolished.
Winston Brownlow
Ralph Herman
"Jason L. Bennett" <j...@borg.com> wrote in message
news:3A662754...@borg.com...
Most LI residents would be against dissolving the villages, they want the
local control villages offer.
Ralph
Garrett Wollman
MCT <maggie...@webtv.net> wrote:
>(With regard to the second statement, Vermont is an exception; Vermont
>has incorporated villages, and most Vermont cities are former villages,
>like their New York counterparts.
But in recent times, as the character of development has changed from
``Main Street'' to ``Mountain View Crescent'' a good number of the
remaining villages have considered and in some cases approved
disincorporation. My recollection is that the Village of Richmond
voted to merge with the Town of Richmond either not long before or
soon after I left the state in 1994. It appears from what little I
can find on the Web that Vermont has 14 remaining villages and two
remaining Gores and one Grant, and of course 252 cities and towns.
A few of the ex-villages became cities, as you mentioned, hence the
cities-and-towns-of Rutland, Barre, Newport, and St. Albans. I
believe the same happened with Burlington, leading eventually to the
formation of South Burlington. (Of course, Vermont has the smallest
largest city of any state in the Union -- and Montpelier is probably a
good candidate for the smallest capital city.)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same
wol...@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom
Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame
MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick
Michael G. Koerner
>
> In article <10893-3A...@storefull-154.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
> MCT <maggie...@webtv.net> wrote:
> >(With regard to the second statement, Vermont is an exception; Vermont
> >has incorporated villages, and most Vermont cities are former villages,
> >like their New York counterparts.
>
> But in recent times, as the character of development has changed from
> ``Main Street'' to ``Mountain View Crescent'' a good number of the
> remaining villages have considered and in some cases approved
> disincorporation. My recollection is that the Village of Richmond
> voted to merge with the Town of Richmond either not long before or
> soon after I left the state in 1994. It appears from what little I
> can find on the Web that Vermont has 14 remaining villages and two
> remaining Gores and one Grant, and of course 252 cities and towns.
>
> A few of the ex-villages became cities, as you mentioned, hence the
> cities-and-towns-of Rutland, Barre, Newport, and St. Albans. I
> believe the same happened with Burlington, leading eventually to the
> formation of South Burlington. (Of course, Vermont has the smallest
> largest city of any state in the Union -- and Montpelier is probably a
> good candidate for the smallest capital city.)
Can these cities in Vermont annex territory?
--
____________________________________________________________________________
Regards,
Michael G. Koerner
Appleton, WI
***NOTICE*** SPAMfilter in use, please remove ALL 'i's from the return
address to reply. ***NOTICE***
____________________________________________________________________________
Garrett Wollman
Michael G. Koerner <mgk...@dataex.com> wrote:
>Can these cities in Vermont annex territory?
From where, Canada?
As a general rule, municipalities in Vermont, and New England
generally, have only such power as is granted to them by the state
legislature. In the case of Vermont, the General Assembly has the
exclusive power to charter municipalities and define their
boundaries.
Garrett Wollman
>A few of the ex-villages became cities, as you mentioned, hence the
>cities-and-towns-of Rutland, Barre, Newport, and St. Albans. I
One of these is not like the others....
Upon further research, I found that only three of the seven cities in
Vermont are former villages. Burlington, it turns out, is not one of
them. The City of Burlington was formed out of an *unincorporated*
village[1] in the Town of Burlington around the middle of the
nineteenth century. The City of South Burlington, Vermont's newest
city, was formed much later from the left-overs. The oldest city is
Vergennes, which was chartered by special act at the request of Hector
St. John de Crevecoeur in honor of a French nobleman.
-GAWollman
[1] State law provides for the chartering of incorporated villages by
the General Assembly. However, it also has (or at least had in the
nineteenth century) a general provision for unincorporated villages,
which were to be set out by the town's board of selectmen upon the
petition of some number of landowners in a settlement.
Charles A Lieberman
www.deja.com/msgid.xp?MID=<Xns902BADA12F21...@207.172.3.55>
>Does anyone know the definitive proper way to pronounce "Van Wyck"? I've
>heard it pronounced two ways:
>
>- Van Wick (rhymes with "brick")
>- Van Wyke (rhymes with "bike")
The first is as close to correct as a native English speaker is likely
to get, although "Van Week" would work about equally well. I believe the
sound is the same as the u-umlaut in German.
Of course, going by that criterion the w should be buzzed. As my newly
discovered cousin reports, the short vowel is how the road's namesake
said it and is therefore by definition correct.
--
Charles A. Lieberman | Taylor, you can't love a man with no head!
Brooklyn, New York, USA |
http://calieber.tripod.com/home.html No relation.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Mikey 16 Jan 2001 22:06:23 GMT
> www.deja.com/msgid.xp?MID=<Xns902BADA12F21...@207.172.3.55>
> >Does anyone know the definitive proper way to pronounce "Van Wyck"? I've
> >heard it pronounced two ways:
> >
> >- Van Wick (rhymes with "brick")
> >- Van Wyke (rhymes with "bike")
>
> The first is as close to correct as a native English speaker is likely
> to get, although "Van Week" would work about equally well. I believe the
> sound is the same as the u-umlaut in German.
It isn't.
> Of course, going by that criterion the w should be buzzed.
Hunh?
> As my newly
> discovered cousin reports, the short vowel is how the road's namesake
> said it and is therefore by definition correct.
It is.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Frank Curcio
Woiccak) writes:
>For some reason, I was under the impression that each NJ county has one
>borough -- sort of a county seat. Is that true?
>
No. A borough/boro is a form of municipal incorporation. Some counties have
dozens, others only a few. Has nothing to do with the seat of the county. Off
the top of my head, I can think of only one county seat that is a borough/boro.
There are cities, towns and townships that are seats, no villages since there
are only 2 in the state.
Regards,
Frank
Gregor Samsa
<per...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
>"Siebrand Tilma" <S.M....@student.tudelft.nl> wrote in message
>news:3a65ae67...@news.tudelft.nl...
>
>> Nowadays it would be written in Dutch as Van Wijk, but Van Wyck is an
>> older form of the same name. It does rhyme with 'bike'.
>>
>> A 'wijk' is a small place or a part of a bigger place. There are
>> several placenames which end with '-wijk' in the Netherlands and Van
>> Wyck's family probably lived in one of them.
>
>As in, the Manor of Rensselaerwyck.
>
...Or the British, Brunswick, the German, Braunsweig-Lunenburg and, of
course, our very own Brooklyn Dutch founded town (now a neighborhood),
Bushwick...
As noted earlier, the proper dutch pronunciation of wick/wyck/wijk is
"vike".
But this is the USA and we don't seem to care much about the
European pronunciations of adopted place names. Lima, Ohio is not
pronounced--"Leema" , Cairo, IL is pronounced "Kay-roh" and Norfolk,
ND is known, by the locals as "Northfork".
So, why should it be any diiferent here in NYC? We've already altered
the pronunciations and names of all the original dutch colonial
settlements that surrounded "New Amsterdam".
Why not, simply, the "van wick" parkway? There seems to be no problem
with "Ruse-ah-velt" Avenue in Queens. The proper Dutch pronunciatation
would be "Rose-Ah-Velt"--"Rose/Red Field".
The talking-heads try to maintain their PC presence by trying to
re-create a false since of understanding linguistics. .
MCT
they are definitely in decline as an institution. A number have
disincorporated in the last few decades, and most of the villages that
remain are very small. Only a handful have over 1,000 people. The
largest by far is Essex Junction (pop. about 8000), in the Town of
Essex, near Burlington [To bring things a little bit back on topic for a
moment, Essex Junction is probaly best known to roadgeeks as the site of
the most notorious intersection in Vermont]. No village has
incorporated as a city since Winooski in 1922.
In any event, even where they still exist, I think the villages are
usually regarded as less important than their parent towns. This is the
opposite of the impression I get about the town/village relationship in
New York, and reflects the importance that towns hold in New England's
municipal setup.
MCT
Newport, St. Albans, South Burlington, Rutland, Winooski, and Vergennes.
I have copies of some U.S. Census materials showing historic population
figures for various New England towns and cities. The information that
I have shows that Barre, Burlington, Montpelier, Newport, Rutland and
Winooski were all villages before incorporating as cities. All except
Winooski were part of a town bearing the same name as the village.
Winooski was part of the Town of Colchester. When the Village of
Newport was incorporated as a city it annexed the neighboring village of
West Derby (which was actually in a different town, Derby).
Garrett mentioned that in the 19th century it was apparently possible in
Vermont for a place to be legally designated as a "village" but not
actually incorporated, and that this was the case with the Village of
Burlington. That may have been true for some of these other villages,
too; I don't know any specifics about their government setups (or lack
thereof).
In the cases of Barre, Newport, and Rutland, the towns of the same name
survive to this day as separate municipalities adjacent to, but distinct
from, the city. The Town of Colchester also remains as a separate
municpality from the City of Winooski. When Burlington was incorporated
as a city, what was left of the Town of Burlington changed its name to
South Burlington. When Montpelier was incorporated as a city, the whole
town apparently consolidated with the city (*).
I can't find any record that there was ever a Village of St. Albans
before the current city was incoorporated; I suspect this may be the
"one that doesn't belong" that Garrett referred to. On a map, the city
certainly looks like it could have been a former village; it is
village-sized (i.e., much smaller in terms of land area than a typical
town) and is adjacent to a completely separate town of the same name,
which it was apparently once part of.
Vergennes was definitely never a village, although like St. Albans it is
certainly a village-sized municipality in terms of its land area.
South Burlington was also never a village. It was an entire town that
incorporated as a city.
So of the nine cities, five are basically former villages; two more are
"village-sized" (not entire-town sized) and look like they could have
once been villages, but apparently were not; one is a former village
that apparently consolidated with the entire town (Montpelier); and one
was formed when an entire town incorporated as a city. In the other New
England states, most cities are former towns. In Vermont, two out of
nine are.
(*) The Town of East Montpelier existed before this time, so it was NOT
created from the remainder of the Town of Montpelier when the city was
incorporated.
Hank Eisenstein
(hugh-ston and how-ston) Both, oddly enough, named for the same guy
according to legend.
-Hank
--
http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon Amateur Photographer
ni...@quuxuum.org Fire-Emergency Services
Hank Eisenstein Transit-NY Metro
Staten Island, NY AOL IM: Hank21k
Let's Go Mets!!
"Gregor Samsa" <Iamg...@herethere.org> wrote in message
news:nuvh6totm2inqkpdm...@4ax.com...
Winston969
>(hugh-ston and how-ston) Both, oddly enough, named for the same guy
>according to legend.
We have a street named for a Texan? Im horrified, if its true, which I doubt,
considering that most NYC streets were named long before any anglo person heard
of the texas area.
Winston Brownlow
Winston969
Whats the difference between a town and a township?
>no villages since there
>are only 2 in the state.
If there are so few villages, why not abolish the category and simplify NJ's
structure a bit?
Winston Brownlow
random thoughts and ideas
>considering that most NYC streets were named long before any anglo person
>heard
>of the texas area.
>
Bigger question:
Why hasn't anyone in SF suggested that Buchanan Street be renamed? I know it's
not honoring ol' Pat, but some wag out there must be thinking...
Chris
=============
Webmaster, Freeways of San Francisco (http://sffwy.cjb.com)
Owner, Secaucus West (roadside attractions, stores, etc.) Mailing List (to
subscribe, email secaucus-we...@egroups.com)
Chris Bessert
> [...] There seems to be no problem with "Ruse-ah-velt" Avenue in
> Queens. The proper Dutch pronunciatation would be "Rose-Ah-Velt"--
> "Rose/Red Field".
Wow, is it really pronounced "Ruse-ah-velt" there? In my hometown in
Michigan, we have a Roosevelt Ave, and I've never heard it pronounced
anything but "Rose-Ah-Velt" -- clearly "rose" as in the thorny flower.
I wonder how Teddy and FDR pronounced it...
Later,
Chris
--
Chris Bessert
Bess...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/Hwys/
Chris Bessert
Nothing's permanent and can be renamed. Was "The Avenue of the Americas"
named in the 1600s? I think not. Did every street in every borough
that now exists exist in the 1600s? I think not. That's how...
random thoughts and ideas
>Michigan, we have a Roosevelt Ave, and I've never heard it pronounced
>anything but "Rose-Ah-Velt" -- clearly "rose" as in the thorny flower.
I'm not sure. I pronounce it "Roohs-eh-velt" or like you, the "rose" type.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Gregor Samsa wrote:
> > [...] There seems to be no problem with "Ruse-ah-velt" Avenue in
> > Queens. The proper Dutch pronunciatation would be "Rose-Ah-Velt"--
> > "Rose/Red Field".
>
> Wow, is it really pronounced "Ruse-ah-velt" there? In my hometown in
> Michigan, we have a Roosevelt Ave, and I've never heard it pronounced
> anything but "Rose-Ah-Velt" -- clearly "rose" as in the thorny flower.
>
> I wonder how Teddy and FDR pronounced it...
They represented different branches of the family; evidently it was T.
Rusevelt and F.D. Rosevelt.
NB except for Carnegie Hall, you should say Car-NAY-gie (for the
Foundation, the libraries, the university, etc.)
Tanguero
For some reason I've only just recently started hearing that pronunciation
(since they've been sponsering prorams on NPR), but can't bring myself
to use it.
On a realted :) note: Does anyone now pronounce Lefrak as Le-frak?
Peter T. Daniels
> On a realted :) note: Does anyone now pronounce Lefrak as Le-frak?
That's how it's always looked to me, but I've never had any personal
connection with it. LEF-rack doesn't feel right.
Phil Kane
>They represented different branches of the family; evidently it was T.
>Rusevelt and F.D. Rosevelt.
FDR's most vitriolic critics pronounced it "Rosen-feld".
--
==> Watch the Doors <==
Phil Kane
Phil Kane
>On a realted :) note: Does anyone now pronounce Lefrak as Le-frak?
Dunno, but in the Talking Books version of The Taking of Pelham
One-Two-Three that I heard in the 70s, Nedick's was pronounced
Neh-Dicks whereas (us) true blue NooYawkuhs pronounce it Nee-Dicks.
David J. Greenberger
> Why not, simply, the "van wick" parkway?
Because it's an expressway, not a parkway.
(Otherwise, I do agree.)
--
David J. Greenberger
David J. Greenberger
> NB except for Carnegie Hall, you should say Car-NAY-gie (for the
> Foundation, the libraries, the university, etc.)
Was the Hall named after someone else?
--
David J. Greenberger
Jeff Zeitlin
>"Siebrand Tilma" <S.M....@student.tudelft.nl> wrote in message
>news:3a65ae67...@news.tudelft.nl...
>> Nowadays it would be written in Dutch as Van Wijk, but Van Wyck is an
>> older form of the same name. It does rhyme with 'bike'.
>> A 'wijk' is a small place or a part of a bigger place. There are
>> several placenames which end with '-wijk' in the Netherlands and Van
>> Wyck's family probably lived in one of them.
>As in, the Manor of Rensselaerwyck.
Which, when I was up at Rensselær Polytechnic Institute, I was told was
pronounced "...wick", short "i".
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzei...@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
> > NB except for Carnegie Hall, you should say Car-NAY-gie (for the
> > Foundation, the libraries, the university, etc.)
>
> Was the Hall named after someone else?
No, but after a century or so of trying to hold back the ocean, the
family gave up trying to get it "correct."
Tanguero
>Tanguero wrote:
I grew up not too far from Lefrak city, (though I confess, I didn't
actually live there) and we all called it LEF-raak (with the
broadest aaah you can imagine- not "ah" as in "ah-so"). I was pretty
amused when I hear that Sam Lefrak had changed the orthography
to LeFrak and maintained the name was French. Admittedly, it
might actually be French (I'm hard-ressed to come up with a potential
etymolygy of Lefrak). It's just a little bit of a stretch to moi.
It's just too bad, though, that he didn't
recognize his Gallic roots earlier and go whole-hog, changing
the spelling to LeFraque. He could have called the development
La Ville LeFraque and charged twice as much.
Incidentally, though, LeFrak City seemed like the Emerald City
to me, with the underground malls and the passageways connecting
the various buildings and garages and stores. My indulgent grandmother,
who babysat me often, would take me on meanders through the tunnels
and malls and playgrounds when I was very small, and later it became
an exotic play-destination with friends in the neighborhood: we bought
gum and candybars at the underground candystore in the circular mall-like
passageway like tourists buying Pernods in Deux Magots. Hmm.. maybe
the guy is French after all..
Peter T. Daniels
> Incidentally, though, LeFrak City seemed like the Emerald City
> to me, with the underground malls and the passageways connecting
> the various buildings and garages and stores. My indulgent grandmother,
> who babysat me often, would take me on meanders through the tunnels
> and malls and playgrounds when I was very small, and later it became
> an exotic play-destination with friends in the neighborhood: we bought
> gum and candybars at the underground candystore in the circular mall-like
> passageway like tourists buying Pernods in Deux Magots. Hmm.. maybe
> the guy is French after all..
I didn't know about any of those features -- the closest similar thing
we have up north here is Parkchester, which is a few decades earlier,
and where the commercial properties are at street level with the
apartment towers above them.
Dyche Anderson
from Michigan:
#1: Mackinac Bridge (Island, Straits of, etc.). Pronounced EXACTLY like Mackinaw in
Mackinaw City. In other words, the "c" is silent (a French thing).
#2: Lahser Road, metro Detroit: (LAH-ser) with the AH as in "Say Ah".
#3: Houghton (city, bridge, etc.): HOE-ton (think "Hough" as in the "Dough" in
Doughnut).
#4: Detroit (city). dee TROIT. NOT DEE-troit. Nor is it day-TWAH or however the French
would pronounce it.
#5: Hamtramck (city): ham-TRAM-ick
#6: Ypsilanti (city): ip-si-LAN-tee. If that gives you problems, simply say IP-see.
Other rules:
#1. Any Finnish name in the UP has the accent is on the FIRST syllable. Some towns
in the UP follow this rule, even if they aren't Finnish in origin.
#2. When in doubt, say the name as if you know how it is pronounced to a local. You WILL
be corrected!
Dyche Anderson
Frank Curcio
(Winston969) writes:
>Whats the difference between a town and a township?
>
Townships can have township commissions or council members voted at large.
Towns often have council members voted in wards. They also have a mayor voted
into office.
>>no villages since there
>>are only 2 in the state.
>
>If there are so few villages, why not abolish the category and simplify NJ's
>structure a bit?
Because we like it that way. Besides, it is a simple structure.
Regards,
Frank
Richard C. Moeur
My wife (a transplanted Yooper) had a lot of fun with this
Arizona native on our first trip up there, especially
when I'd use entirely reasonable pronunciations such as:
Houghton = Howton (how the road in Tucson is pronounced...)
Baraga = Bahrahgah (you mean it isn't pronounced like a Spanish name?)
Gogebic = Gojebic (it's a g in there, isn't it?)
I did know Mackinac = Mackinaw, though - thanks to the
quaint little town on the "Troll" end of the bridge.
Her relatives up there were telling me that WLUC in Marquette
hired a weatherman recently from Massachusetts, and the other
newsfolks finally got tired of him saying names like
"Cahpah Hahbah", and decisively corrected him - on the air. :)
My wife has also been introducing me to the "proper Finnish
pronunciations" of important retail outlets, so we now
refer to "K-martala" and "Wal-Marninen".
--
Richard C. Moeur, P.E., WC7RCM, E.C.I., whatever...
Practicing Traffic Engineer (I'll get it right someday...)
Phoenix, Arizona, USA
"Life is just one W1-5 after another, until the W14-1"
The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
the Arizona Department of Transportation. Really.
WWW: http://members.aol.com/rcmoeur/
E-Mail: rcm...@aol.com, NOT rcm...@earthlink.net. Tnx!
Sean The Great
>however the French
>would pronounce it.
Interestingly, whenever the players talk about the Lions, they use the second
prononciation for DEE-troit.
-Sean
Michael G. Koerner
Same thing with the Packers.
The PROPER pronounciation is 'green-BAY', NOT 'GREEN-bay'. Most
out-of-towners (including national sportcasters) get that one wrong, too.
I often hear Menasha murdered by out-of-towners. It is 'me(short
'e')-NASH-a('shwah' sound)', not 'men-AAH-sha'.
The one that make NE Wisconsin locals laugh the most, though, is that
the City of Shawano is pronounced 'SHAW-no', not 'sha-WA-no'.
--
____________________________________________________________________________
Regards,
Michael G. Koerner
Appleton, WI
***NOTICE*** SPAMfilter in use, please remove ALL 'i's from the return
address to reply. ***NOTICE***
____________________________________________________________________________
Jim Ellwanger
> Sean The Great wrote:
> >
> > >#4: Detroit (city). dee TROIT. NOT DEE-troit. Nor is it
> > >day-TWAH or however the French would pronounce it.
> >
> > Interestingly, whenever the players talk about the Lions, they use
> > the second prononciation for DEE-troit.
>
> Same thing with the Packers.
>
> The PROPER pronounciation is 'green-BAY', NOT 'GREEN-bay'. Most
> out-of-towners (including national sportcasters) get that one wrong, too.
Interesting, since when describing the other "Bay" NFL team, I don't
think I've ever heard a sportscaster say "TAMPA Bay." But then,
three-quarters of the time when they're correctly saying "Tampa BAY,"
they're insisting that it's the name of a place that's populated by
humans (as in "Super Bowl XXXV will be played in Tampa Bay"). Be glad
that Green Bay is the name of both the body of water AND the city in
which the team plays.
--
Jim Ellwanger <trai...@mindspring.com>
<http://trainman1.home.mindspring.com/> shares the spirit.
"Invest everything you have in steam powered weaving machines."
Phil Kane
>> Was the Hall named after someone else?
>
>No, but after a century or so of trying to hold back the ocean, the
>family gave up trying to get it "correct."
I wonder how William Pierce, the long-time announcer for the
Boston Symphony, would have pronounced it. He was a stickler
for correct "ethnic" pronunciation, and the first one whom I
remember pronouncing "Don Quixote" as "Don Ki-sho-tay" rather
than "Don Ki-ho-tay" which was more common. His pronunciation
is correct in Ladino (Judeo-Spanish) which I suspect would make it
correct in Old Castilian.
Milton Cross, anyone??
Phil Kane
>I didn't know about any of those features -- the closest similar thing
>we have up north here is Parkchester, which is a few decades earlier,
>and where the commercial properties are at street level with the
>apartment towers above them.
Before we got together, my wife lived in an apartment in
Parkmerced, the carbon copy of Parkchester in San Francisco
(Parklabrea is the carbon copy in Los Angeles).
Those apartments, although built after WW-II in 1940 "modern"
style, were really built well by Met Life, and were in good
shape and maintained well even after 40 years. Had it been
bigger I would have moved in with her there, rather than vice
versa.
Scott M. Kozel
>
> mgk...@dataex.com wrote:
>
> > The PROPER pronounciation is 'green-BAY', NOT 'GREEN-bay'. Most
> > out-of-towners (including national sportcasters) get that one wrong, too.
>
> Interesting, since when describing the other "Bay" NFL team, I don't
> think I've ever heard a sportscaster say "TAMPA Bay." But then,
> three-quarters of the time when they're correctly saying "Tampa BAY,"
> they're insisting that it's the name of a place that's populated by
> humans (as in "Super Bowl XXXV will be played in Tampa Bay"). Be glad
> that Green Bay is the name of both the body of water AND the city in
> which the team plays.
That is correct that there is not a city or county called "Tampa Bay".
It is the name of the estuary. "Tampa Bay" is used as the regional
name, just as "Hampton Roads" is used as the regional name for Norfolk
and the other major cities in southeastern Virginia.
"Hampton Roads" is the historic name for the five-mile wide, last ten
miles or so of the James River before it empties into Chesapeake Bay.
--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
Peter T. Daniels
I was surprised to hear on their 60th-anniversary program the beginning
of this season that Texaco has had only two announcers in all that time.
Milton Cross emceed the Ithaca College graduation concert (it was half a
music school, the other half a phys ed school) when I was at Cornell,
and I went to a couple -- he did all that umming and ahhing in person as
well.
mass...@my-deja.com
> >
> > >#4: Detroit (city). dee TROIT. NOT DEE-troit. Nor is it day-
TWAH or
> > >however the French
> > >would pronounce it.
> >
> > Interestingly, whenever the players talk about the Lions, they use
the second
> > prononciation for DEE-troit.
> >
> > -Sean
>
> Same thing with the Packers.
>
> The PROPER pronounciation is 'green-BAY', NOT 'GREEN-bay'. Most
> out-of-towners (including national sportcasters) get that one wrong,
too.
>
> I often hear Menasha murdered by out-of-towners. It is 'me(short
> 'e')-NASH-a('shwah' sound)', not 'men-AAH-sha'.
>
> The one that make NE Wisconsin locals laugh the most, though, is that
> the City of Shawano is pronounced 'SHAW-no', not 'sha-WA-no'.
All right, I can't resist: "NEW Haven," or "New HAVEN"? I've heard
both. Also, anyone with CT knowledge, please discuss Berlin. Train
conductors seem to say "BERlin," not "BerLIN" like the German
counterpart. But then train conductors have a language all their own.
--
"Obviously when you're looking for a large government subsidy for a
private organization, to pay one employee $160 million is of concern," -
- Brian Honan, Boston City Councillor, on the Red Sox' signing of Manny
Ramirez during their push for $212 million in city funds.
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Charles A Lieberman
www.deja.com/msgid.xp?MID=<3A6994...@worldnet.att.net>
>NB except for Carnegie Hall, you should say Car-NAY-gie (for the
>Foundation, the libraries, the university, etc.)
My girlfriend, who has family in Pittsburgh, says it Car-NEH-gie,
although she falls in line when it comes to the performance space on
Fifth Avenue. But she has a Southern accent, so that may well be the
same thing.
You wouldn't believe the temptation (which I fought) to x-post this to
alt.usage.english as well.
--
Charles A. Lieberman | Taylor, you can't love a man with no head!
Brooklyn, New York, USA |
http://calieber.tripod.com/home.html No relation.
Charles A Lieberman
www.deja.com/msgid.xp?MID=<cuvyxnansvbet....@ca.news.verio.net>
> FDR's most vitriolic critics pronounced it "Rosen-feld".
I don't know that "vitriolic" is the most salient of the terms I would
use, although it's probably among them.
Charles A Lieberman
www.deja.com/msgid.xp?MID=<3A6899...@worldnet.att.net>
>> Of course, going by that criterion the w should be buzzed.
>
>Hunh?
Oh God. Ok, make a v sound. Now do it again, only instead of your teeth,
use your upper lip.
danielk...@my-deja.com
> All right, I can't resist: "NEW Haven," or "New HAVEN"? I've heard
> both.
That bugs me. I've been unable to figure out any patterns of who says
which, and neither has the professor of a linguistics course in
dialects of English that I took.
> Also, anyone with CT knowledge, please discuss Berlin. Train
> conductors seem to say "BERlin," not "BerLIN" like the German
> counterpart. But then train conductors have a language all their own.
I heard that the pronunciation was changed as an anti-German sentiment
in World War II, but I have no idea if this is true.
-Dan
Michael G. Koerner
It did in Wisconsin, but during WWI. Both the City of Berlin, WI and
the City of New Berlin, WI are pronounced 'BER-lin'.
Jim Ellwanger
<koz...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> That is correct that there is not a city or county called "Tampa Bay".
> It is the name of the estuary. "Tampa Bay" is used as the regional
> name, just as "Hampton Roads" is used as the regional name for Norfolk
> and the other major cities in southeastern Virginia.
Yes, I know, since I grew up in Tampa. I am fine with the sports teams
being named "the Tampa Bay (whatever)." I don't have a problem with
many of the local broadcasting outlets calling themselves, for example,
"ABC 28 Tampa Bay."
However, since the body of water is called Tampa Bay, to me, it sounds
simultaneously stupid and misleading to say something like "Super Bowl
XXXV will be played in Tampa Bay," rather than either "Super Bowl XXXV
will be played in the Tampa Bay area," or to be even more precise,
"Super Bowl XXXV will be played in Tampa." (I can understand having to
specify "the Tampa Bay area" when referring to, say, Pinellas Park,
Florida, but it shouldn't be necessary for something, like the Super
Bowl, taking place within Tampa city limits.)
Within Florida, you also sometimes hear, "Super Bowl XXXV will be played
in the Bay Area," but that's problematic to be used on a national level,
since it's not the most famous Bay Area in the U.S.
--
Jim Ellwanger <trai...@mindspring.com>
<http://trainman1.home.mindspring.com/> gives you much more.
"Slush Puppie's a tramp. I've had Slush Puppie."
Bruce B. Reynolds
Sixth Avenue (or for the FDR linkage, Avenue of the Americas).
--
Bruce B. Reynolds, Independent/Legacy Systems Consultant: Trailing Edge
Technologies, Glenside PA---Sweeping Up Behind Data Processing Dinosaurs
Peter Rosa
danielk...@my-deja.com wrote:
> mass...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > All right, I can't resist: "NEW Haven," or "New HAVEN"? I've heard
> > both.
>
> That bugs me. I've been unable to figure out any patterns of who says
> which, and neither has the professor of a linguistics course in
> dialects of English that I took.
If you're referring to the Connecticut city, the emphasis is on the second
word.
>
> > Also, anyone with CT knowledge, please discuss Berlin. Train
> > conductors seem to say "BERlin," not "BerLIN" like the German
> > counterpart. But then train conductors have a language all their own.
>
> I heard that the pronunciation was changed as an anti-German sentiment
> in World War II, but I have no idea if this is true.
It indeed was changed out of anti-German sentiment, although it was during
World War I. Incidentially, I have heard that the German pronunciation is
starting to reassert itself. Not surprising, I suppose, now that World War
I has almost entirely faded beyond human memory and World War II is rapidly
doing the same.
--
Peter Rosa
pros...@yahoo.com
R32...@aol.com
Founder,
Official Ronkonkoma Haters Association
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:45:58 GMT
> www.deja.com/msgid.xp?MID=<3A6899...@worldnet.att.net>
> >> Of course, going by that criterion the w should be buzzed.
> >
> >Hunh?
>
> Oh God. Ok, make a v sound. Now do it again, only instead of your teeth,
> use your upper lip.
Oh, a bilabial fricative. Why didn't you say so?
I don't think I've encountered those in Dutch.
Shalom Septimus
<per...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>In fact, would it not have been spelt with the Dutch
>letter IJ,
In print, they look rather different, but I noticed that when you
write them in script, the only difference between ij and y is that the
ij has two dots above. In other words, ij == y-with-diaeresis (я).
David Samuel Barr
>
> I was surprised to hear on their 60th-anniversary program the
> beginning of this season that Texaco has had only two announcers in
> all that time. Milton Cross emceed the Ithaca College graduation
> concert (it was half a music school, the other half a phys ed school)
> when I was at Cornell, and I went to a couple -- he did all that
> umming and ahhing in person as well.
Actually, if you want to be that dismissive of Ithaca College (as so
many of my fellow Cornellians tend to be), you could at least be more
accurate and say that it was 1/4 a music school, 1/4 a phys ed school,
1/4 a drama school and 1/4 a broadcasting school.
Bill D
Michael G. Koerner <mgk...@dataex.com> wrote:
>It did in Wisconsin, but during WWI. Both the City of Berlin, WI and
>the City of New Berlin, WI are pronounced 'BER-lin'.
Ditto Berlin, NJ.
bill
--
Bill D <bi...@netway.com> DoD #2190
Peter T. Daniels
In 1970? (Which you could determine from Milton Cross being alive at the
time.)
Agent_C
danielk...@my-deja.com
> danielk...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > mass...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > All right, I can't resist: "NEW Haven," or "New HAVEN"? I've heard
> > > both.
> >
> > That bugs me. I've been unable to figure out any patterns of who
says
> > which, and neither has the professor of a linguistics course in
> > dialects of English that I took.
>
> If you're referring to the Connecticut city, the emphasis is on the
second
> word.
What do you mean? I've heard people who say it "NEW haven", and others
who say it "new HAven".
Peter Rosa
danielk...@my-deja.com wrote:
> pros...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > If you're referring to the Connecticut city, the emphasis is on the
> second
> > word.
>
> What do you mean? I've heard people who say it "NEW haven", and others
> who say it "new HAven".
I mean the second way.
David J. Greenberger
> Carnegie Hall not on Fifth Avenue, rather southeast corner of 57th
> Street and Sixth Avenue (or for the FDR linkage, Avenue of the
> Americas).
Seventh.
(Who claimed it was on Fifth?)
--
David J. Greenberger
random thoughts and ideas
>
>(Who claimed it was on Fifth?)
Now I"m confused. What avenue is the Ave Of The Americas and what avenue is
Fashion Avenue?
Chris
=============
Webmaster, Freeways of San Francisco (http://sffwy.cjb.com)
Owner, Secaucus West (roadside attractions, stores, etc.) Mailing List (to
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Winston969
Avenue of los Americanos is really 6th Ave. I have never heard of Fashion Ave.
It sounds like one those dumb supplemental signs the NYCDOT has a habit of
putting up.
Winston Brownlow
Chris Bessert
>
> > What avenue is the Ave Of The Americas
>
Shouldn't that be "Avenue de los Americanos"?
--
Chris Bessert
Bess...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/Hwys/
David Samuel Barr
Yes. It started out as a music conservatory in 1892, and then expanded
its curriculum throughout the first half of the 20th century to the
point of being a comprehensive liberal arts & sciences college, earning
its particular renown for its specialised programs in music, dance,
phys ed, drama, speech therapy and broadcasting long before 1970.
Peter T. Daniels
My guess would be that Drama and Broadcasting were both included along
with Music within a single School of Performing Arts or some such,
opposed to the division that trained gym teachers, which is why
Cornellians would have the impression that it had two parts.
Allen Funt gave the Candid Camera materials to Cornell (unfortunately
they didn't archive the outtakes from their stunts!), but Rod Serling
bequeathed the Twilight Zone materials to Ithaca College.