Exit to self?
Eric Scouten
While we're talking about exit numbers, has anyone noticed that sometimes
what is posted as an "exit" is actually a continuation of the same route?
One example that comes to mind is the I-90/94 split at Tomah, Wisconsin.
Going westbound on 90/94, the intersection looks something like this:
90 94
\ \ | |
\ \ \*| | |
\ \| |
\ \ | |
\ | (traffic moves up)
| | | |
| |
| | | |
| |
| | | |
| |
90/94
This intersection occurs at mile 45 of I-90 and mile 147 of I-94 (counting
from the MN border in both cases). The common section of 90/94 uses the
mile markers from I-90, so as you're approaching the split from the east
it is marked as exit number 45.
What's wierd is that the exit is to I-90, not to I-94. At the point marked
"*", there is a green sign that reads "EXIT 45" with a left arrow. The
overhead signs before the junction place the exit number tab on the left
edge of the sign over the markers for I-90.
Any other cases where you "exit" the highway and stay on it?
-es
__________________________________________________________________________
Eric Scouten Constructor Constructor Metrowerks Corp.
MW: mailto:sco...@metrowerks.com http://www.metrowerks.com
Me: mailto:sco...@gofast.net http://www.delivery.com/~scouten/
Desktop Archeology (n): the practice of digging through the windows on
someone's terminal to discover what they did months, even years, before.
Bob Goudreau
Eric Scouten (sco...@gofast.net) wrote:
: Any other cases where you "exit" the highway and stay on it?
Well, sure, there are lots of places where two routes are multiplexed
onto a single dual-signed roadway. Where the routes diverged, one
route often has to be accessed by an exit off the other. Local
examples for me include I-40/I-85 between Greensboro and Hillsboro:
since the I-85 mileposts and exit numbers are used on this dual-signed
stretch, you have to take a numbered exit to remain on I-40 in either
direction. Even closer to me is the I-440 Raleigh Beltline; the bottom
half of this road is also I-40, so you have to exit in order to stay
on 440.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Goudreau Data General Corporation
goud...@dg-rtp.dg.com 62 Alexander Drive
+1 919 248 6231 Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA
Ty Rogers
sco...@gofast.net (Eric Scouten) wrote:
>While we're talking about exit numbers, has anyone noticed that sometimes
>what is posted as an "exit" is actually a continuation of the same route?
>
>One example that comes to mind is the I-90/94 split at Tomah, Wisconsin.
>Going westbound on 90/94, the intersection looks something like this:
>
>
>
>
>
> 90 94
> \ \ | |
> \ \ \*| | |
> \ \| |
> \ \ | |
> \ | (traffic moves up)
> | | | |
> | |
> | | | |
> | |
> | | | |
> | |
> 90/94
>
>
>
>This intersection occurs at mile 45 of I-90 and mile 147 of I-94 (counting
>from the MN border in both cases). The common section of 90/94 uses the
>mile markers from I-90, so as you're approaching the split from the east
>it is marked as exit number 45.
>
>What's wierd is that the exit is to I-90, not to I-94. At the point marked
>"*", there is a green sign that reads "EXIT 45" with a left arrow. The
>overhead signs before the junction place the exit number tab on the left
>edge of the sign over the markers for I-90.
>
>
>
>
I could think of many but I'm not having a good day. But here's one.
Exit 24 of the NY Thruway/ I-87 Northway-- IN BOTH DIRECTIONS!!
Larry Stone
In article <4ser61$f...@news.ios.com>, Ty Rogers <tyro...@chelsea.ios.com> writes:
> I could think of many but I'm not having a good day. But here's one.
> Exit 24 of the NY Thruway/ I-87 Northway-- IN BOTH DIRECTIONS!!
But, this is Exit 24 of the Thruway, not Exit 24 of I-87 or I-90
(neither of which has length of the state numbering since so much of
them is on the Thruway with its own numbering). And likewise, coming
south on the Northway approaching the Thruway, I-87 exits the Northway
at Northway Exit 1W, not I-87 exit 1W. So IMHO, this signing is
consistent because the route is leaving the named road and the named road
is the basis for the numbering, not the numbered route.
And just for completeness, northbund, I-87 leaves the Thruway at Exit
24, then runs about 1/4 with East I-90 leaving I-90 at 90's exit 1N (and
yes, that interchange is Exit 1 for both roads).
--
Larry Stone | United Airlines
VAX and HP-UX Systems Administrator | Maintenance Operations Center
sto...@eisner.decus.org | San Francisco, CA 415-634-4725
All opinions are mine, not United's.
Michael King
> Ty Rogers <tyro...@chelsea.ios.com> wrote in article
<4ser61$f...@news.ios.com>...
> sco...@gofast.net (Eric Scouten) wrote:
> >While we're talking about exit numbers, has anyone noticed that
sometimes
> >what is posted as an "exit" is actually a continuation of the same
route?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Exit 24 of the NY Thruway/ I-87 Northway-- IN BOTH DIRECTIONS!!
>
>
I can think of several...the I-90/94 Dan Ryan/Skyway split on the south
side of Chicago; or probably MORE noticable would be the I-80 transition
from I-94 (TriState/Borman Expy) to I-90 (Indiana Toll Road) in Lake
Station, IN.
On the Pennsylvania Turnpike, going westbound, you must exit to remain on
I-70 in New Stanton, and going eastbound, you exit to remain on 70 in
Breezewood.
The splits between I-75 & I-85 north & south of downtown here in Atlanta
are less true exits since three or four lanes of traffic split off with
each highway here.
Another good example that comes to mind though is the transition from I-74
to I-465 both east AND west of Indianapolis.
M
--
Michael King - ILC, Atlanta
"...It's in your home state...it's outside your front door..."
http://www.ilcnet.com/dujour/
Eric Scouten
In article <1996Jul16.092150.1@eisner>, sto...@eisner.decus.org (Larry
Stone) wrote:
> In article <4ser61$f...@news.ios.com>, Ty Rogers
<tyro...@chelsea.ios.com> writes:
> > I could think of many but I'm not having a good day. But here's one.
> > Exit 24 of the NY Thruway/ I-87 Northway-- IN BOTH DIRECTIONS!!
>
> But, this is Exit 24 of the Thruway, not Exit 24 of I-87 or I-90
> (neither of which has length of the state numbering since so much of
> them is on the Thruway with its own numbering).
Right... what I was looking for was a case where the "exit" to continue on
the highway is numbered using the exit numbers of that highway. Obviously
where two freeways split, there will be an exit to one, but typically that
exit is numbered in the sequence of the other.
-es
__________________________________________________________________________
Eric Scouten Constructor Constructor Metrowerks Corp.
MW: mailto:sco...@metrowerks.com http://www.metrowerks.com
Me: mailto:sco...@gofast.net http://www.delivery.com/~scouten/
One reason she is an unusually effective mayour, even in a weak-mayor
system, is because she doesn't insist on taking credit for her
accomplishments. That's a really sneaky, underhanded, and useful trick.
-Molly Ivins
Larry Stone
In article <01bb7314.1a18e580$fdfe...@ilcnet.com>, "Michael King" <mk...@ilcnet.com> writes:
>> Ty Rogers <tyro...@chelsea.ios.com> wrote in article
> <4ser61$f...@news.ios.com>...
>> sco...@gofast.net (Eric Scouten) wrote:
>> >While we're talking about exit numbers, has anyone noticed that
> sometimes
>> >what is posted as an "exit" is actually a continuation of the same
> route?
> I can think of several...the I-90/94 Dan Ryan/Skyway split on the south
> side of Chicago; or probably MORE noticable would be the I-80 transition
> from I-94 (TriState/Borman Expy) to I-90 (Indiana Toll Road) in Lake
> Station, IN.
...
No, you're missing his point. Eric's looking for examples where the exit
is numbered appropriately for the road that is exiting, not the through
route. In his example, exit NN was the split of route Y and route Z but
was the appropriate number for route Y (based on Y's distance to the
state line). None the less, at the split, the "exit" was to route Y
while the "through" side was to route Z.
John Lansford
goud...@dg-rtp.dg.com (Bob Goudreau) wrote:
. Even closer to me is the I-440 Raleigh Beltline; the bottom
>half of this road is also I-40, so you have to exit in order to stay
>on 440.
You must be talking about the section toward Cary, where one minute
you are on the I-440 Beltline and the next thing you know you are on
US 1 South. If you don't take the loop up to the overhead road, you
can't stay on I-440. That and the left handed entrance ramp from
Western Boulevard are two bad designs here in Raleigh.
John Lansford
Eric Scouten
In article <31ec619...@nnrp.crl.com>, tran...@crl.com (Mark Roberts)
wrote:
> sco...@gofast.net (Eric Scouten) had written on Fri, 12 Jul 1996
> 20:50:40 -0500:
>
> | While we're talking about exit numbers, has anyone noticed that sometimes
> | what is posted as an "exit" is actually a continuation of the same route?
> If I'm understanding the concept correctly (some of the
> subsequent discussion has left me a bit confused), I can think of two
> examples of this in Topeka, Kansas:
> I-70 westbound exits the Kansas Turnpike, which continues on
> as I-470.
Nope. That's not what I'm looking for. KTA treats this as though you are
exiting the Turnpike, not I-70, so the exit is marked as exit #182. This
is 182 miles from the OK border via the Turnpike. There is a logical
consistency to this treatment.
What I was looking for was the somewhat illogical situation where the exit
number comes from the highway that you stay on if you take the exit. In
the Wisconsin example I mentioned, you take exit #45 of I-90 to stay on
I-90 (which is 45 miles from the Minnesota border). The more logical way
to post this would be to mark it as exit 45 to follow I-94, or mark it as
exit #147 (using the I-94 mile numbers).
Mark Roberts
| While we're talking about exit numbers, has anyone noticed that sometimes
| what is posted as an "exit" is actually a continuation of the same route?
|
If I'm understanding the concept correctly (some of the
subsequent discussion has left me a bit confused), I can think of two
examples of this in Topeka, Kansas:
I-70 westbound exits the Kansas Turnpike, which continues on
as I-470.
Then I-470 south/westbound exits the Kansas Turnpike, which
didn't used to have any designation but is now I-335.
Wonder if toll roads are most prone to this, especially with
those that predated Interstate designations.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Roberts | Kansas City, Missouri (USA) | http://www.crl.com/~transvox/
The Mid-America Radio Page: also at http://www.littleblue.com/kcradio/marp/
=============================================================================
Michael King
> sto...@eisner.decus.org (Larry Stone) wrote in article
<1996Jul16.160919.1@eisner>...
> In article <01bb7314.1a18e580$fdfe...@ilcnet.com>, "Michael King"
<mk...@ilcnet.com> writes:
> >> Ty Rogers <tyro...@chelsea.ios.com> wrote in article
> > <4ser61$f...@news.ios.com>...
> >> sco...@gofast.net (Eric Scouten) wrote:
> > sometimes
> >> >what is posted as an "exit" is actually a continuation of the same
> > route?
>
south
> > side of Chicago; or probably MORE noticable would be the I-80
transition
> > from I-94 (TriState/Borman Expy) to I-90 (Indiana Toll Road) in Lake
> > Station, IN.
> ..
>
> is numbered appropriately for the road that is exiting, not the through
> route. In his example, exit NN was the split of route Y and route Z but
> was the appropriate number for route Y (based on Y's distance to the
> state line). None the less, at the split, the "exit" was to route Y
> while the "through" side was to route Z.
>
Not at all -- Admittedly, the Ryan/Skyway transition is numbererd based
upon I-94's (the larger highway at that point) mileage, but the 80/90/94
transition in Indiana is numbered based on I-80 when driving eastbound (on
80/94) which WOULD qualify. Granted, westbound traffic on the Toll Road
(I-80/90) is running based on I-90's mileage.
M
<...confused? You won't be after this episode of ...."Soap">
Ty Rogers
The debates that go on in this newsgroup! We all sound like a group of
lawyers :)
H.B. Elkins
The split of the common section of I-64 westbound and I-75 northbound
at Lexington, KY is a good example. I-64 traffic goes straight on two
lanes; I-75 traffic exits to the right on two lanes, but the I-64
traffic that goes straight is the one that has to "exit" the highway.
It's signed as Exit 118 for I-75 even though technically I-75 traffic
has to exit from the highway and the continuation of the route is on
I-64.
Conversely, on I-64 east and I-75 south, when the highways split, I-64
exits to the left side of the road as Exit 111 of I-75. I-75 goes
straight.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
H.B. Elkins -- Card-Carrying Conservative from Winchester, Ky.
"You must have the courage to believe the truth" -- Rush Limbaugh
Kentucky Wildcats Basketball & #3 Dale Earnhardt -- A Championship Combination
!!! David Lee Roth is back in Van Halen -- There IS a God !!!
hbel...@mis.net <or> HB...@aol.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Michael King
> "Michael King" <mk...@ilcnet.com> wrote:
> >> sto...@eisner.decus.org (Larry Stone) wrote in article
> ><1996Jul16.160919.1@eisner>...
> >> In article <01bb7314.1a18e580$fdfe...@ilcnet.com>, "Michael King"
> ><mk...@ilcnet.com> writes:
> >> >> Ty Rogers <tyro...@chelsea.ios.com> wrote in article
> >> > <4ser61$f...@news.ios.com>...
> >> >> sco...@gofast.net (Eric Scouten) wrote:
> >> >> >While we're talking about exit numbers, has anyone noticed that
> >> >
>
> lawyers :)
>
>
I object! <g>
M
Richie Kennedy
Eric Scouten (sco...@gofast.net) wrote:
: In article <31ec619...@nnrp.crl.com>, tran...@crl.com (Mark Roberts)
: wrote:
: > sco...@gofast.net (Eric Scouten) had written on Fri, 12 Jul 1996
: > 20:50:40 -0500:
: >
: > If I'm understanding the concept correctly (some of the
: > subsequent discussion has left me a bit confused), I can think of two
: > examples of this in Topeka, Kansas:
: > I-70 westbound exits the Kansas Turnpike, which continues on
: > as I-470.
: Nope. That's not what I'm looking for. KTA treats this as though you are
: exiting the Turnpike, not I-70, so the exit is marked as exit #182. This
: is 182 miles from the OK border via the Turnpike. There is a logical
: consistency to this treatment.
I have a question about the Turnpike at the eastern end. The toll
portion "ends" at Kansas highway 7, but the turnpike technically "ends" at
US-69 south. The mile numbers change from 228 to 410 before I-435. I
think if this is the Turnpikez maint., it should continue the turnpike mile
numbering to US-69.
--
Richie Kennedy
http://ci.lawrence.ks.us/~kennedy
Snailmail: 3921 Harvard Rd, Lawrence Ks 66049-3501
Email: ken...@idir.net
Not only am I a dangerous photographer, I am faithful
Dave Schul
rpke...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Richie Kennedy) wrote:
>I have a question about the Turnpike at the eastern end. The toll
>portion "ends" at Kansas highway 7, but the turnpike technically "ends" at
>US-69 south. The mile numbers change from 228 to 410 before I-435. I
>think if this is the Turnpikez maint., it should continue the turnpike mile
>numbering to US-69.
The eastern terminal used to be located much closer to Kansas City
(maybe even at US-69, although I didn't live here at that time), but
was pushed back to just east of the K-7 interchange in the 1980s. My
1982 road atlas shows the exit to K-132 (now an unnumbered road) as
exit 231, which would be consistent with the KTA exit numbering
system. In 1983 the exit was number 415, consistent with I-70's exit
numbers. I-70 was shown as a toll road all the way to US-69 until
1988, but that portion of the road may have been free before then. Of
course, the Rand McNally road atlas isn't the most accurate source of
this information, but I have more faith in it than I do in the 1980s
official Kansas state maps.
My guess would be that they moved the eastern terminal back because of
I-435. The exit is a standard cloverleaf, and toll booths wouldn't
have fit into the plan very well. If you get off at K-7, you pay
about 40c less than if you go through the eastern terminal, so
technically, you're paying to use the entire length of the turnpike
even if you get off at I-435, which is only a couple of miles further.
Dave
map...@ukans.edu
Confusion Incarnate
Larry Stone (sto...@eisner.decus.org) wrote:
>
>No, you're missing his point. Eric's looking for examples where the exit
>is numbered appropriately for the road that is exiting, not the through
>route. In his example, exit NN was the split of route Y and route Z but
>was the appropriate number for route Y (based on Y's distance to the
>state line). None the less, at the split, the "exit" was to route Y
>while the "through" side was to route Z.
Also significant would be places where a two-digit Interstate runs through
a city, but a spur or loop takes primacy. I believe there's an example in
Memphis at the 40/240 interchange... coming in from the west on I-40, you
have to exit to stay on 40, while the main line becomes 240. I haven't
driven that way in several years, though, so my memory may be wrong.
--
james v. geluso:atl...@io.com:i know what you'd pay to feel
John Lansford
map...@ukans.edu (Dave Schul) wrote:
>As I recall, there is no main line -- you either exit to the left or
>the right. I-40 was supposed to go straight through Memphis
>originally, but got rerouted around to the north on I-240 instead.
There's an I-240 in Asheville, NC. Is there another loop named I-240
in Memphis? I thought the loops were numbered uniquely just like the
highways are.
One reason why the Interstates do not always appear to follow the
"correct" direction is traffic count. Especially when two Interstates
merge and then diverge, the one with the heaviest traffic gets the
more "direct" routing. It all depends on how much traffic; a loop or
other Interstate, even the one that was the "main" route before, would
get the secondary treatment if it had less traffic than the other
road.
John Lansford
Dave Schul
atl...@io.com (Confusion Incarnate) wrote:
>Also significant would be places where a two-digit Interstate runs through
>a city, but a spur or loop takes primacy. I believe there's an example in
>Memphis at the 40/240 interchange... coming in from the west on I-40, you
>have to exit to stay on 40, while the main line becomes 240. I haven't
>driven that way in several years, though, so my memory may be wrong.
As I recall, there is no main line -- you either exit to the left or
the right. I-40 was supposed to go straight through Memphis
originally, but got rerouted around to the north on I-240 instead.
Sam Cooper Blvd, which is what is straight ahead of I-40 as it
encounters 240 from the east, was part of the original I-40 plan. I
don't know what made them give up the original alignment -- perhaps
we've uncovered another artifact of bad highway planning? The remains
of the unfinished main line are still evident at the western I-40/240
junction.
Of course, it's been so long since I've been there that I have no idea
how the exits are signed. I do remember that because of the
rerouting, the first 3 or so miles of I-40 are given exit numbers 1
through 1F.
Dave
map...@ukans.edu
John Lansford
Bob Kniefel <rkni...@conc.tds.net> wrote:
>
>They are unique. There is only one I-240 in Tennessee, it's in Memphis.
>Tennessee's I-440 is in Nashville and I-640 is in Knoxville. Arkansas' I-440 is
>at Little Rock and North Carolina's I-40 is around Raliegh.
So they are unique only in one state. Interesting. BTW, I had thought
the Federal Government would have required unique loop numbers for any
particular Interstate for its entire length.
John Lansford
>
Bob Kniefel
In article <31f35018...@news.vnet.net>, <lans...@vnet.net> writes:
> There's an I-240 in Asheville, NC. Is there another loop named I-240
> in Memphis? I thought the loops were numbered uniquely just like the
> highways are.
They are unique. There is only one I-240 in Tennessee, it's in Memphis.
Exile on Market Street
tran...@crl.com (Mark Roberts) wrote:
>map...@ukans.edu (Dave Schul) had written of the Kansas Turnpike:
>
>| The eastern terminal used to be located much closer to Kansas City
>| (maybe even at US-69, although I didn't live here at that time), but
>| was pushed back to just east of the K-7 interchange in the 1980s.
> A 1971 Texaco street map of Kansas City (a Gousha' map) shows
>the following in Kansas City, Kansas:
> * I-70 as a toll road all the way to the 18th Street
>Expressway. This was east of what is now US 69 (i.e., the I-635
>extension from I-70 down to I-35 and thence to Metcalf).
At the time, US 69 followed the 18th St Expwy from the Muncie Expwy
(I-70) south to I-35. The 18th St Expwy was also Kansas 58, which ran
along 18th St in KCK. Kansas 58 no longer exists.
> * The 18th Street Expressway as a toll road from I-70 to
>Metropolitan Avenue, on the other side of the Kansas River. It might
>be more precise to say this was a toll bridge. (It no longer is a toll
>bridge or road.)
Because of the design of the exits, calling it a toll road would not
have been inaccurate: there was only one exit before the tolls (on the
Argentine side of the Kansas River crossing) in either direction
(prior to the opening of the Turkey Creek Expwy (I-35) ~1964, there
would have been *no* exit before the tolls northbound), and the
Argentine interchange was built so that you had to pass through the
tolls before exiting. (A longer example of a "toll road" of this type
is Baltimore's Harbor Tunnel Thruway, which is still a toll facility.)
> * The first toll plaza was at the Kansas Route 32 interchange.
>Part of this interchange was west of I-635; the other part was east of
>it. 635 was completed only from I-70 northward to 38th Street near
>Leavenworth Road, and not at all south of I-70.
This doesn't jibe with my memory. The K-32 interchange was at Park
Drive (which ran roughly southeast-northwest from Kansas Ave to 38th
St), and was the last exit before paying a toll. Or maybe this is
splitting hairs: prior to I-635, the first toll booths were about
where the 70/635 junction now sits.
I also recall that you did not receive a ticket at these booths, but
paid a cash toll instead. The ticketed part of the Turnpike began
just west of the Turner Diagonal (Kansas 132) interchange.
____________________________________________________________________________
Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia smi...@pobox.upenn.edu
Univ of Pennsylvania, News and Public Affairs 215.898.1423/fax 215.898.1203
I speak for myself here, not Penn http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
"When your name is on the store, then you can say no to a customer."
--Stockton Strawbridge, whose family name will remain on the store even
---though the family will no longer own it, to a sales clerk in the 1950's--
Bob Kniefel
In article <31f3e74e...@news.vnet.net>, <lans...@vnet.net> writes:
>
> So they are unique only in one state. Interesting. BTW, I had thought
> the Federal Government would have required unique loop numbers for any
> particular Interstate for its entire length.
>
> John Lansford
> >
That would probably mean that the belt line around NYC instead of being I-287
could have been I-22980 (How many I-n80s are there in California, plus one
around Sacramento, Reno/Sparks,Salt Lake City, Cheyenne, Omaha, Des Moines and
Davenport/Rock Island/Moline, Chicago/Gary, Toledo and Cleveland and
Youngstown.
It's simpler having them unique by state, the state builds and maintains them,
after all.
Bob Kniefel
Michael King
> Bob Kniefel <rkni...@conc.tds.net> wrote in article
<NEWTNews.16778.8...@conc.tdsnet.com.tdsnet.com>...
And to confuse things even more, I-840 is currently under construction
east of Nashville. It will connect I-40 and I-24 about 15 or so miles east
of the Nashville Intl. Airport.
H.B. Elkins
Bob Kniefel <rkni...@conc.tds.net> wrote:
>In article <31f35018...@news.vnet.net>, <lans...@vnet.net> writes:
>
>> There's an I-240 in Asheville, NC. Is there another loop named I-240
>> in Memphis? I thought the loops were numbered uniquely just like the
>> highways are.
>They are unique. There is only one I-240 in Tennessee, it's in Memphis.
>Tennessee's I-440 is in Nashville and I-640 is in Knoxville. Arkansas' I-440 is
>at Little Rock and North Carolina's I-40 is around Raliegh.
And I-840, coming soon to link I-65 north of Nashville to I-24
southeast of Nashville, and maybe even I-65 south of Nashville.,
crossing I-40 just east of Nashville near the airport. The first
section is to open soon, if it isn't already open. It extends from
I-40 in a southerly and southwesterly direction, maybe all the way
down to I-24.
There's also I-140, a spur to the airport near Knoxville.
Ty Rogers
lans...@vnet.net (John Lansford) wrote:
>Bob Kniefel <rkni...@conc.tds.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>They are unique. There is only one I-240 in Tennessee, it's in Memphis.
>
>>Tennessee's I-440 is in Nashville and I-640 is in Knoxville. Arkansas' I-440 is
>
>>at Little Rock and North Carolina's I-40 is around Raliegh.
>
>the Federal Government would have required unique loop numbers for any
>particular Interstate for its entire length.
>
You would quickly run out of 3 digit numbers if you could only have one 3
digit number for the entire mainline. For example, NY has no more room
for loops or spurs of I-90. Numbers 1 through 9 have been assigned.
Now, if these were the only I-190, I-290, I-390 etc. in the whole
country, what would happen to the spurs and loops of I-90 in other
states?
Mark Roberts
map...@ukans.edu (Dave Schul) had written of the Kansas Turnpike:
| The eastern terminal used to be located much closer to Kansas City
| (maybe even at US-69, although I didn't live here at that time), but
| was pushed back to just east of the K-7 interchange in the 1980s.
A 1971 Texaco street map of Kansas City (a Gousha' map) shows
the following in Kansas City, Kansas:
* I-70 as a toll road all the way to the 18th Street
Expressway. This was east of what is now US 69 (i.e., the I-635
extension from I-70 down to I-35 and thence to Metcalf).
* The 18th Street Expressway as a toll road from I-70 to
Metropolitan Avenue, on the other side of the Kansas River. It might
be more precise to say this was a toll bridge. (It no longer is a toll
bridge or road.)
* The first toll plaza was at the Kansas Route 32 interchange.
Part of this interchange was west of I-635; the other part was east of
it. 635 was completed only from I-70 northward to 38th Street near
Leavenworth Road, and not at all south of I-70.
Alas, that is the last KC street map I have until a 1987
Gousha' edition, which shows the situation as it is presently. I may
have others I inherited from an uncle who passed away a couple of
years ago, but I still haven't merged most of those maps into my
collection and I can't find them at this instant.
| Of
| course, the Rand McNally road atlas isn't the most accurate source of
| this information, but I have more faith in it than I do in the 1980s
| official Kansas state maps.
|
Hmmm...were the Kansas state maps known for being inaccurate?
Bob Goudreau
: So they are unique only in one state. Interesting. BTW, I had thought
: the Federal Government would have required unique loop numbers for any
: particular Interstate for its entire length.
It's pretty obvious why such a rule could not exist: many interstates
are simply too long and have too many auxiliaries for each auxiliary
to be assigned a nationally unique number. Remember, there are only
4 even prefixes available for loops and only 5 odd prefixes available
for spurs. Many long interstates easily exceed these counts over
their entire length. Indeed, some come close even within a single
state -- consider I-90 in New York state, where all 9 possible auxiliary
numbers, from 190 to 990, are in use.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Goudreau Data General Corporation
goud...@dg-rtp.dg.com 62 Alexander Drive
+1 919 248 6231 Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA
James Lin
Bob Kniefel <rkni...@conc.tds.net> wrote:
> How many I-n80s are there in California, plus one around Sacramento,
> Reno/Sparks, Salt Lake City, Cheyenne, Omaha, Des Moines and
> Davenport/Rock Island/Moline, Chicago/Gary, Toledo and Cleveland and
> Youngstown.
I thought Sacramento _is_ in California ;)
Actually, in Sacramento, there is no I-n80 anymore. I-880, which used
to go around Sacramento, was renamed I-80 in 1981, and the old I-80
through Sacramento was renamed Interstate Business Loop 80, even
though in the California Streets and Highways Code Business I-80 is
legally route 51! (See http://www.engr.ucdavis.edu/~dmstanek/cahwys.
html) State Route 17 between I-280 in San Jose and I-80 in Oakland was
renamed I-880 in 1984.
Bob probably asked the question rhetorically, but I'll answer anyway
:)
In the San Francisco Bay Area:
I-80, I-280, I-380, I-580, I-680, I-780, I-880, I-990
Ten! "180" is used for a state route in some other part of the state,
and "480" was an interstate, and then a state route, and then it was
torn down after being damaged by the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake.
There are more loops and spurs of I-80 in New Jersey.
- Jim
James Lin | Without computers, it would be
jl...@ugcs.caltech.edu | virtually impossible for us to
| accomploiwur xow;gkc,mf(*&(
U.S. and Canada Highway Signs Web Site | -- Dave Barry
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~jlin/signs/ |
Dave Schul
tran...@crl.com (Mark Roberts) wrote:
>map...@ukans.edu (Dave Schul) had written:
>| Of
>| course, the Rand McNally road atlas isn't the most accurate source of
>| this information, but I have more faith in it than I do in the 1980s
>| official Kansas state maps.
>|
> Hmmm...were the Kansas state maps known for being inaccurate?
My main concern with them is that they weren't necessarily dated
correctly, or updated very frequently. Using one to pinpoint the date
when a certain construction project was completed may not be any
better than using a road atlas. Of course, since they are a major
source of information for Rand McNally, I suppose I should question my
reliance on it as well.
You can't trust anybody. I won't be happy until I have a GPS in my
car.
Dave
Mark S. Roberts
Exile on Market Street (smi...@pobox.upenn.edu) had written in response
to me:
| > * The first toll plaza was at the Kansas Route 32 interchange.
| >Part of this interchange was west of I-635; the other part was east of
| >it. 635 was completed only from I-70 northward to 38th Street near
| >Leavenworth Road, and not at all south of I-70.
| This doesn't jibe with my memory. The K-32 interchange was at Park
| Drive (which ran roughly southeast-northwest from Kansas Ave to 38th
| St), and was the last exit before paying a toll. Or maybe this is
| splitting hairs: prior to I-635, the first toll booths were about
| where the 70/635 junction now sits.
The map shows the K-32 toll plaza just west of I-635 (with part of
K-32 going under I-635), and none on the Kansas Turnpike itself.
As Dave has pointed out elsewhere, it's possible this map could
have been wrong. I don't know where Gousha' sourced its info, but given his
report of inaccuracies in the official state map, those inaccuracies could
have propagated elsewhere, too.
--
=== Mark Roberts, Kansas City, Mo. (USA) | http://www.crl.com/~transvox ===
"I sometimes think that as Missourians, we take good manners for granted to
the point that we find ourselves bewildered and baffled by people who behave
badly." --Rose M. Nolen, _Columbia Daily Tribune_ columnist, 5-July-1996
Mark S. Roberts
Dave Schul (map...@ukans.edu) had written:
| tran...@crl.com (Mark Roberts) wrote:
| > Hmmm...were the Kansas state maps known for being inaccurate?
| My main concern with them is that they weren't necessarily dated
| correctly, or updated very frequently. [...]
| You can't trust anybody. I won't be happy until I have a GPS in my
| car.
Well, I want one at home, so I can do latitude and longitude
measures vis-a-vis radio transmitters, but that's another story for another
newsgroup!
Dave Schul
tran...@crl.com (Mark S. Roberts) wrote:
>Exile on Market Street (smi...@pobox.upenn.edu) had written in response
>to me:
>| > * The first toll plaza was at the Kansas Route 32 interchange.
>| >Part of this interchange was west of I-635; the other part was east of
>| >it. 635 was completed only from I-70 northward to 38th Street near
>| >Leavenworth Road, and not at all south of I-70.
>| This doesn't jibe with my memory. The K-32 interchange was at Park
>| Drive (which ran roughly southeast-northwest from Kansas Ave to 38th
>| St), and was the last exit before paying a toll. Or maybe this is
>| splitting hairs: prior to I-635, the first toll booths were about
>| where the 70/635 junction now sits.
> The map shows the K-32 toll plaza just west of I-635 (with part of
>K-32 going under I-635), and none on the Kansas Turnpike itself.
> As Dave has pointed out elsewhere, it's possible this map could
>have been wrong. I don't know where Gousha' sourced its info, but given his
>report of inaccuracies in the official state map, those inaccuracies could
>have propagated elsewhere, too.
>
OK, let me clarify, before KDOT sees this and revokes my free map
privileges. All I was saying about the accuracy of their maps was
that a 1981 (for example) map didn't necessarily show the current
1981 road network -- it could have shown the 1980 or 1982 network
instead. I don't know of any cases in which they gave bad
information; if the map shows the K-32 interchange there, it was
probably there, though not necessarily that year.
Mark S. Roberts
| >Exile on Market Street (smi...@pobox.upenn.edu) had written in response
| >to me:
| >| > * The first toll plaza was at the Kansas Route 32 interchange.
| >| >Part of this interchange was west of I-635; the other part was east of
| >| >it. 635 was completed only from I-70 northward to 38th Street near
| >| >Leavenworth Road, and not at all south of I-70.
| >| This doesn't jibe with my memory.
[...]
Then I said:
| > As Dave has pointed out elsewhere, it's possible this map could
| >have been wrong.
| >
Then Dave replied:
| All I was saying about the accuracy of their maps was
| that a 1981 (for example) map didn't necessarily show the current
| 1981 road network -- it could have shown the 1980 or 1982 network
| instead. I don't know of any cases in which they gave bad
| information; if the map shows the K-32 interchange there, it was
| probably there, though not necessarily that year.
Btw, to clarify, the Kansas City street map in question was not an
official KDOT map.
This weekend, a friend of mine showed me a map of KC he had pieced
together in the early 1960s from the large-scale US Geological Survey maps.
Most of the maps were 1927 data with updates from a 1957 aerial survey.
The map covering KCK definitely shows the first interchange at Route 32. Of
course, this was well before I-635 or I-70 for that matter.
(It was interesting, though, to note that the south approach to the
Paseo bridge in Kansas City, Mo., which I think is about the dumbest design
ever dreamed up: all the exits and entrances break off or merge in to the
left, for no good apparent reason whatsoever, was already present in the
1957 aerial survey.)
Mark (who wishes no one ever to be denied a map!!)
Nathan
Revokes your free map privileges? How would they do that, post your
picture at all tourist info centers? (Or centres if in Canada<G>) =)
--
Nathan
nat...@prodigy.net | nat...@rnet.com | nat...@prodigy.com
---- http://www.rnet.com/hp/nathan/index.htm ----
Dave Schul <map...@ukans.edu> wrote in article
<1996Jul27.2...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>...
> OK, let me clarify, before KDOT sees this and revokes my free map
> privileges. All I was saying about the accuracy of their maps was
Nathan
How about a AAA altas? (Hey, that's 4 'A's in a row!<G>)
--
Nathan
nat...@prodigy.net | nat...@rnet.com | nat...@prodigy.com
---- http://www.rnet.com/hp/nathan/index.htm ----
Dave Schul <map...@ukans.edu> wrote in article
<1996Jul25.2...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>...
> better than using a road atlas. Of course, since they are a major
> source of information for Rand McNally, I suppose I should question my
> reliance on it as well.
>
> You can't trust anybody. I won't be happy until I have a GPS in my
> car.
>
> Dave
>
>
Exile on Market Street
tran...@crl.com (Mark S. Roberts) wrote:
> (It was interesting, though, to note that the south approach to the
>Paseo bridge in Kansas City, Mo., which I think is about the dumbest design
>ever dreamed up: all the exits and entrances break off or merge in to the
>left, for no good apparent reason whatsoever, was already present in the
>1957 aerial survey.)
Hm?
The Paseo Bridge had been open for two years when I was born, and I
really don't remember traveling over it before I was about 4 or 5, so
some changes may have been made, but IIRC, between what is now the
downtown loop and what was then the 6th Street Expressway and the
bridge proper, there were three ramps/interchanges:
--a jug-handle on-ramp from Independence Avenue westbound to the Paseo
Bridge approach southbound just before its connection to the 6th St
Expwy;
--a southbound off-ramp/northbound on-ramp from the bridge approach to
The Paseo itself; the ramp connected to the Paseo at Independence Ave,
with The Paseo southbound from North Terrace Park crossing it;
--a half-cloverleaf interchange with River Front Road.
IIRC, the only ramps that connected to the left lanes of the highway
were those with The Paseo.
Then again, memory can play tricks on one...