Sell Eurostar tickets London to Paris return
Javi Hassan
Two Eurostar tickets
London Waterloo to Paris Nord
Leaving Saturday 3rd July 2004 @ 0812 (local time)
Returning Monday 5th July 2004 @ 1816 (local time)
Family circumstances mean we can't travel
Cost £120
accept reasonable offers
Please email Jaweria...@NoSpam.CommerzbankIB.com (remove NoSpam
from email address) - let me know your details and I'll get back to
you
thanks
Javi
Phil Richards
<Jaweria...@commerzbankib.com> said...
> FOR SALE
>
> Two Eurostar tickets
> London Waterloo to Paris Nord
At your own risk. Quoted from Eurostar's Condition's of Carriage:
11. You may not transfer your ticket to anyone else
Tickets already partly used, or made out in a passenger's name are non-
transferable and may only be used by the person for whom the ticket has
been purchased. Tickets may not be offered for sale except by Eurostar
(U.K.) Limited or its authorised agents. If a ticket is resold or
transferred for profit or other commercial gain, it will become invalid
and the holder may be refused access to the Eurostar train.
--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
M.G.Schram
tickets for your friends without giving a list off names, as you are obliged
to do with airlines.
Legally you may be rigth, but if Eurostar gives you no refund and your
reserved places are not reused for other passengers, I see no moral reason
why you schouldnt do it.
Certainly if you dont make a profit on it, and only recoup some off your
financial loss.
(And if you read the text correctly, it is allowed to sell at a loss)
"Phil Richards" <philri...@blueyonder.co.uk> schreef in bericht
news:MPG.1b453b848...@News.Individual.NET...
Lennart Petersen
"M.G.Schram" <nomgspa...@bart.nl> skrev i meddelandet
news:ccTCc.2658$%4.6...@typhoon.bart.nl...
> As far as I know, there is no name printed on the tickets. You can buy
> tickets for your friends without giving a list off names, as you are
obliged
> to do with airlines.
indeed there's no name printed on it.
Only an "Adulte" indicates who is travelling.
L.P
Brian Williams
--
"Lennart Petersen" <lennart....@swipnet.se> wrote in message
news:P_YCc.3574$dx3....@newsb.telia.net...
The ones I've had ,issued in the UK, do have the bearer's name on them, but
then most of them are either duty or PALS tickets. On the French side, this
doesn't seem to happen.
Brian
Phil Richards
said...
> As far as I know, there is no name printed on the tickets. You can buy
> tickets for your friends without giving a list off names, as you are obliged
> to do with airlines.
Tickets issued off the SNCF system and AFAIK in the UK too will bear the
name of the person who booked the ticket so long as it was done by by
phone or internet. However *individual* names do not appear.
Difficult one to enforce, in the ng uk.railway it's been discussed on
more than one occasion regarding the transfer of tickets which is against
the National Conditions of Carriage. And those Conditions are effectively
a bylaw which may result in prosecution. But to re-emphasise a difficult
one to enforce.
> Legally you may be rigth, but if Eurostar gives you no refund and your
> reserved places are not reused for other passengers, I see no moral reason
> why you schouldnt do it.
What I posted was straight from Eurostar's Conditions of Carriage, not my
own words! I think you'll find as with most T&C they are written by those
with from legal background.
> Certainly if you dont make a profit on it, and only recoup some off your
> financial loss.
> (And if you read the text correctly, it is allowed to sell at a loss)
I'm inclined not to agree with you there. Individuals can't sell tickets
according to the Conditions of Carriage:
"Tickets may not be offered for sale except by Eurostar (U.K.) Limited or
its authorised agents. If a ticket is resold or transferred for profit or
other commercial gain, it will become invalid and the holder may be
refused access to the Eurostar train."
By specifying "re-sold" it could mean re-selling the ticket at a loss or
a profit and according to the Conditions renders the ticket invalid.
Again enforcing this is difficult, hence worded *may be* refused access
to the train.
So strictly speaking the OP could donate the ticket free of charge to
someone who could make use of it.
tim
"Phil Richards" <philri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b46ab25...@News.Individual.NET...
In which case then I'm suprised that the OFT haven't taken enforcement
action wrt the fair terms in consumer legislation (as they did with the
airlines). Under this legislation a contract clause which denies a
consumer a right of 'set-off' is void. If the ticket cannot be refunded
then not allowing a consumer to sell it on is unreasonable (in the view
of the legislators), I see no reason why ES should be excempt from this
rule.
tim
Phil Richards
online.de> said...
> In which case then I'm suprised that the OFT haven't taken enforcement
> action wrt the fair terms in consumer legislation (as they did with the
> airlines). Under this legislation a contract clause which denies a
> consumer a right of 'set-off' is void. If the ticket cannot be refunded
> then not allowing a consumer to sell it on is unreasonable (in the view
> of the legislators), I see no reason why ES should be excempt from this
> rule.
Presumably as the conditions of carriage state, Eurostar tickets can only
be sold by Eurostar (UK) or one of their authorised agents. The same goes
for say tickets for a sporting event or show - re-selling by touts or
whoever is against the applicable T&C.
As a re-seller strictly speaking you have to take on the responsibility
of dealing with certain things if something goes wrong. Let's say you
sold me a non-refundable Eurostar ticket because you couldn't travel. You
therefore become an agent, albeit an unauthorised one . I then travelled
and the train got delayed. I am then entitled to compensation as per the
Conditions of Carriage. Perhaps then you would then like to take care of
handling the claim via the carrier on my behalf as part of your duties as
an agent?
tim
> On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:52:07 +0200 tim <520010973502removethis@t-
> online.de> said...
>
> > In which case then I'm suprised that the OFT haven't taken enforcement
> > action wrt the fair terms in consumer legislation (as they did with the
> > airlines). Under this legislation a contract clause which denies a
> > consumer a right of 'set-off' is void. If the ticket cannot be refunded
> > then not allowing a consumer to sell it on is unreasonable (in the view
> > of the legislators), I see no reason why ES should be excempt from this
> > rule.
>
> Presumably as the conditions of carriage state, Eurostar tickets can only
> be sold by Eurostar (UK) or one of their authorised agents. The same goes
> for say tickets for a sporting event or show - re-selling by touts or
> whoever is against the applicable T&C.
But the point is that such a clause is potentially invalid in a consumer
contract. Selling on an 'event' ticket at a particular price may, or it
may not be legal for other reasons, but the original seller of the ticket
may not completely deny the consumer the right to 'set-off' their loss
if the consumer finds that they can no longer use the ticket.
> As a re-seller strictly speaking you have to take on the responsibility
> of dealing with certain things if something goes wrong. Let's say you
> sold me a non-refundable Eurostar ticket because you couldn't travel. You
> therefore become an agent,
I don't believe that I would (assuming that I don't miss-represent
my position in the sale). This is not a business to consumer sale
and as such it does not come with the associated rights
> albeit an unauthorised one . I then travelled
> and the train got delayed. I am then entitled to compensation as per the
> Conditions of Carriage. Perhaps then you would then like to take care of
> handling the claim via the carrier on my behalf as part of your duties as
> an agent?
I think that this is poor example as in this case surely as the pax I
would appraoch the carrier directly not via the agent
tim
Phil Richards
online.de> said...
> But the point is that such a clause is potentially invalid in a consumer
> contract. Selling on an 'event' ticket at a particular price may, or it
> may not be legal for other reasons, but the original seller of the ticket
> may not completely deny the consumer the right to 'set-off' their loss
> if the consumer finds that they can no longer use the ticket.
Why are you saying it is potentially invalid as a consumer contract?
Numerous things we buy in life can only officially be purchased through
designated channels and travel or event tickets in general come under
that banner. When you buy a product or service you enter in to a
contract. In certain cases part of that contract is you may not pass it
on to someone else.
Argue as much as you like but banding about statements like that as a
consumer isn't going to get you far. If you're that insistent in getting
your way, fine, take it through the legal system and see how far you
might get. In the meantime the supplier or whoever has their T&C to
firmly stand by.
> I don't believe that I would (assuming that I don't miss-represent
> my position in the sale). This is not a business to consumer sale
> and as such it does not come with the associated rights
And the T&C don't allow you to do so for that reason. It's not like your
selling goods via an advert in the local paper for example - if they go
wrong then as a consumer you've got little chance of getting your money
back or getting any appropriate after sales service. When you buy a
travel ticket it is only fair to expect the same service and back-up as
though you bought it off the carrier direct or through one of their
appointed agents.
> I think that this is poor example as in this case surely as the pax I
> would appraoch the carrier directly not via the agent
An appointed agent would be required to at least forward the complaint or
request for compensation to the carrier if requested by their customer.
That's one of their duties in their contract between the agent and
supplier.
And let's say I did approach the carrier as certainly their is little
chance you as an unofficial agent would perform these duties. Considering
their is a high possibility of your name and other details on the booking
records (if it was made by phone or internet for example) there is every
chance this could arouse suspicion and potentially it could backfire on
you.
tim
> On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 18:48:04 +0200 tim <520010973502removethis@t-
> online.de> said...
>
> > But the point is that such a clause is potentially invalid in a consumer
> > contract. Selling on an 'event' ticket at a particular price may, or it
> > may not be legal for other reasons, but the original seller of the
ticket
> > may not completely deny the consumer the right to 'set-off' their loss
> > if the consumer finds that they can no longer use the ticket.
>
> Why are you saying it is potentially invalid as a consumer contract?
Because
1) "The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999"
makes unfair terms void. Note that this has been enacted under an
EU directive, so all other EU countries will have similar legislation
and moving the contract to France or Belgium doesn't help
2) The OFT, as initial enforcement agency for the legislation, have
decided that clauses which completely deny the consumer the right
to 'set-off' unrefundable tickets are unfair and hence void. The OFT
have brought enforcement action for this against several industries,
including the airlines. The OFT could be wrong in this interpretation
and it is open for the industries concerned to challenge this view
in court, but none have done so, they have all changed their contracts
as requested.
There are in some cases where there are valid reasons why a ticket
should not be transferable, of which safety is the most obvious
(though I can't see that this could apply to most 'event' tickets)
and in this case the non-transferability remains and the contracts
have been changed to give a limited right to refund or credit
voucher.
ISTM that the position of ES on this item is little different to the
airlines.
> Numerous things we buy in life can only officially be purchased through
> designated channels
But this doesn't give the seller a free reign to make up whatever
T&Cs they like and make them automatically valid.
It places them under more scrutiny to be legal
> and travel or event tickets in general come under
> that banner. When you buy a product or service you enter in to a
> contract.
And if statute says that a particular clause in a contrct is void,
then it is void. A business cannot (usually) ask a consumer to
sign away this right.
> In certain cases part of that contract is you may not pass it
> on to someone else.
As above, sometimes this will be enforcable, sometimes not.
In the case of an event ticket, I can see no reason why it should
be enforcable.
> Argue as much as you like but banding about statements like that as a
> consumer isn't going to get you far.
I am not. I am discussing the situation, as I see it, with you.
> If you're that insistent in getting
> your way, fine, take it through the legal system and see how far you
> might get.
This is not necessary. One only has to ask a local TS dept to ask
the OFT to intervene
> In the meantime the supplier or whoever has their T&C to
> firmly stand by.
It is attitudes like this that causes businesses to add clauses
in their contracts, that they know to be invalid, as 'frightners'.
Most companies do it, they know that 99% of people will
accept that the T&Cs are king. They are not.
Sadly, there are very few clauses that are illegal to add into a
contract, but there are lots that are unenforcable and until they
are challenged in court the company is free to keep them there.
> > I don't believe that I would (assuming that I don't miss-represent
> > my position in the sale). This is not a business to consumer sale
> > and as such it does not come with the associated rights
>
> And the T&C don't allow you to do so for that reason. It's not like your
> selling goods via an advert in the local paper for example - if they go
> wrong then as a consumer you've got little chance of getting your money
> back or getting any appropriate after sales service. When you buy a
> travel ticket it is only fair to expect the same service and back-up as
> though you bought it off the carrier direct or through one of their
> appointed agents.
Why, this was obviously a personal sale. As you(?) said in the first
place: Buyer beware. If the seller is not representing themselves as
a business why should the buyer assume that they get 'consumer'
rights (and even if they assume it, they still won't be getting them
unless there was a missrepresentation by the seller).
> > I think that this is poor example as in this case surely as the pax I
> > would appraoch the carrier directly not via the agent
>
> An appointed agent would be required to at least forward the complaint or
> request for compensation to the carrier if requested by their customer.
> That's one of their duties in their contract between the agent and
> supplier.
>
> And let's say I did approach the carrier as certainly their is little
> chance you as an unofficial agent would perform these duties.
Sorry you've moved on a whole lot here. Where did we start
discussing someone working as an unofficial agent. What were are
talking about is a consumer who has bought a product that they
now find that they cannot use and is seeking to mitigate their
loss. This does not make them an unofficial agent. I don't see
event tickets as being any different to soap powder.
> Considering
> their is a high possibility of your name and other details on the booking
> records (if it was made by phone or internet for example) there is every
> chance this could arouse suspicion and potentially it could backfire on
> you.
Who is the you here?
The person doing the selling or the person doing the buying, neither
of which are me.
In any case, it is quite common for someone to buy a ticket
intending it to be used by someone else (as the T&Cs allow)
and in some cases the purchaser may not travel. Do these
people have a problem?
tim