whistles/horns/sirens notes/chords
Roderick Smith
many whistles, but I can't find it again.
A search through the index gives a 1945 article on whistle codes, and a
1993 article on whistle makers, but no information on what they play.
Could somebody post either the missing reference, or the information?
In my own country (Australia) the standard Victorian steam five-chime
whistle (from Nathan?) used an A7th modified to replace G with G# (to give
a dissonance commanding respect at level crossings).
A + C# + E + G# + A.
IIRC, a USA horn used an Eb chord.
--
TIA
Roderick Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
James Robinson
>
> I once read an article in Trains which gave the musical description
> for many whistles, but I can't find it again.
> Could somebody post either the missing reference, or the information?
There are a couple of web sites that have the information, such as:
Roderick Smith
Very helpful information. I spent an hour diving between the websites and
the piano.
--
Regards
John Albert
<< I once read an article in Trains which gave the musical description for
many whistles, but I can't find it again.
A search through the index gives a 1945 article on whistle codes, and a
1993 article on whistle makers, but no information on what they play.>>
Just a _slightly_ off-topic comment:
Although all the AEM-7's have the same 5 horns mounted on the roof
(directly above the engineman's window), almost all the engines "sound
different". Some of the engines "grate" on you, while others sound
wonderful. There seem to be more factors than just the horns themselves
that determine "where their sound comes from"; one that's important is the
air valve (mounted on the ceiling above the engineman's seat). Some have a
lighter touch than others. Some you can "feather" - others squeal or
screech. A few are positively strange sounding.
Unlike the AEM-7's, the horns on the HHP-8 and high-speed trainsets all
sound uniformly ... well .... lousy. In the cab, there is a "horn stick"
(that I believe electrically controls an air valve). There are only 2
positions for it: high and low volume. Neither are pleasant to the ear.
They should have put the traditional 5-chime horns on them, whether they
used an old-style air valve or not.
The horn is the engine's voice. I can remember being the fireman for an
old-time Harlem engineman named Vic Westman who could make the Hancock
whistles on the old FL-9's _sing_. They didn't give him the railroad
nickname of "Casey Jones" for nothing. He was also an accomplished artist -
one of his paintings is the frontspiece of Lou Grogan's book about the
Harlem Line.
Even today, if you take a little care, you can make the AEM-7's speak out
with a sweet voice, if you've got one of the good ones.
But the high-speed and HHP stuff - forget it. They're _never_ going to
sound good -- just LOUD.
- John
Philip Nasadowski
John Albert <j.al...@snet.net> wrote:
> Although all the AEM-7's have the same 5 horns mounted on the roof
> (directly above the engineman's window), almost all the engines "sound
> different".
Interesting. Most LIRR trains seem to sound more or less the same, but
you do hear MUs with weird hjorns at times. Then again, an LIRR MU's
horn sounds 'weird' anyway, if you're not used to it.
> Some of the engines "grate" on you, while others sound
> wonderful. There seem to be more factors than just the horns themselves
> that determine "where their sound comes from"; one that's important is the
> air valve (mounted on the ceiling above the engineman's seat). Some have a
> lighter touch than others. Some you can "feather" - others squeal or
> screech. A few are positively strange sounding.
Heh. I bet most of that's dirt ingestion from one end or another.
> Unlike the AEM-7's, the horns on the HHP-8 and high-speed trainsets all
> sound uniformly ... well .... lousy. In the cab, there is a "horn stick"
> (that I believe electrically controls an air valve). There are only 2
> positions for it: high and low volume. Neither are pleasant to the ear.
> They should have put the traditional 5-chime horns on them, whether they
> used an old-style air valve or not.
The LIRR made this boner, and when residents near rail lines complained
about the new diesel fleet's horns, they ended up relocating them and
putting in a more traditional air valve - people didn't like the way the
sound went *everywhere* and the hard 'on off' nature.
> The horn is the engine's voice. I can remember being the fireman for an
> old-time Harlem engineman named Vic Westman who could make the Hancock
> whistles on the old FL-9's _sing_. They didn't give him the railroad
> nickname of "Casey Jones" for nothing.
I've heard a few LIRR engineers with distinctive horn techniques.
> But the high-speed and HHP stuff - forget it. They're _never_ going to
> sound good -- just LOUD.
The Acela's horns aren't loud, they're painfully, obnoxiously loud. I'm
not one for hating loud sounds (Besides my bike, i like watching
airliners take off at close distance - the McDonalds by Bradley airport
in CT was an ideal spot, esp if you got anything with JT-8Ds or JT-3Ds),
but these are pathetic.
> - John
Hey, what happened with that speedo problem you had?
--
To email me, change 'usermale' to 'usermail'
bras...@despammed.com
<nasadowsk-7CEE6...@241.in-addr.mrf.va.news.rcn.net>, Philip
Nasadowski <nasa...@usermale.com> wrote:
> The Acela's horns aren't loud, they're painfully, obnoxiously loud. I'm
> not one for hating loud sounds (Besides my bike, i like watching
> airliners take off at close distance - the McDonalds by Bradley airport
> in CT was an ideal spot, esp if you got anything with JT-8Ds or JT-3Ds),
> but these are pathetic.
I suppose those loud horns was someone's idea of making the horn possible
to hear at the road crossing when the train is approaching the road at 150
mph and is therefore quite distant when it needs to hit the horn?
( Note I say "crossing". This is because the only crossing in North
America likely to ever see trains at 150 mph is the one that crosses the
test center high speed track at the AAR Pueblo Test Center. )
--
-Glenn Laubaugh
Personal Web Site: http://www.easystreet.com/~glennl
Pac Man
"John Albert" <j.al...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:3D9660BE...@snet.net...
>
> Just a _slightly_ off-topic comment:
>
> Although all the AEM-7's have the same 5 horns mounted on the roof
> (directly above the engineman's window), almost all the engines "sound
> different". Some of the engines "grate" on you, while others sound
> wonderful. There seem to be more factors than just the horns themselves
> that determine "where their sound comes from"; one that's important is the
> air valve (mounted on the ceiling above the engineman's seat). Some have a
> lighter touch than others. Some you can "feather" - others squeal or
> screech. A few are positively strange sounding.
Yeah, 5 chimes are (usually) nice. Certainly a long way from the old "blat"
airhorns...
> Unlike the AEM-7's, the horns on the HHP-8 and high-speed trainsets all
> sound uniformly ... well .... lousy. In the cab, there is a "horn stick"
> (that I believe electrically controls an air valve). There are only 2
> positions for it: high and low volume. Neither are pleasant to the ear.
> They should have put the traditional 5-chime horns on them, whether they
> used an old-style air valve or not.
Don't feel bad, John. :-) I'm sure you could find an old New Haven man who
to this day claims they should have put a whistle on the AEM-7's, just like
on *his* NH electric (and that nothing sounded sweeter). Horns? Bah,
they'll never catch on. ;-) Seems that every NH electric had a whistle
except for the EF-4's (Virginians)...
> The horn is the engine's voice. I can remember being the fireman for an
> old-time Harlem engineman named Vic Westman who could make the Hancock
> whistles on the old FL-9's _sing_. They didn't give him the railroad
> nickname of "Casey Jones" for nothing. He was also an accomplished
artist -
> one of his paintings is the frontspiece of Lou Grogan's book about the
> Harlem Line.
Say, you don't by any chance know Herbie Clark, do you? Or his son?
> Even today, if you take a little care, you can make the AEM-7's speak out
> with a sweet voice, if you've got one of the good ones.
I don't suppose you could describe the air valve? My RR club has several
horns/whistle in it's collection (2 three chimes, a Hancock, plus a 5 chime
that belongs to a member (and yes, they're all legal!)), and all we have for
valves is a on/off trigger on our air supply. It'd be nice if we could get
ourselves an appropriate valve. Ball valve, spring loaded, etc. And isn't
the air supply at 140 psi?
> But the high-speed and HHP stuff - forget it. They're _never_ going to
> sound good -- just LOUD.
I dunno. It's ok, but it's nothing to write home about. To me, the most
important thing is that it's different. For most of my life, all I've heard
is 5 chimes (both Amtrak and MBTA) and occasionally whatever Conrail was
using on B23-7's. Standing on the platform in Mansfield, MA, it's nice to
know what's coming, just by the sound of the horn. And, considering the
group intelligence level of commuters (and I used to be one), you need that
loud horn... ;-)
Paul A. Cutler III
*************
A Texan is bragging to a New Englander. "In Texas," he draws, "you can get
on a train, ride all day long, and still be in Texas by nightfall."
"So what?" replies the Yankee, "We have slow trains in Rhode Island,
too." - From "New England in a Nutshell"
*************
Philip Nasadowski
Steve Hoskins <sjhho...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> That's because LIRR opted for Leslie horns on the MU's. The M-1's
> have a Leslie S44 single note horn. The M-3's have a model S2M
> dual-tone horn. They mount them down on the front truck of each car,
> so they pick up road grit, etc. Leslie horns have a design that
> causes the horns to "crack" and squeal when they wear. So every now
> and then you have one that sounds like it has a throat full of snot or
> screams like a banshee.
Most sounds nice. But the tone certainly is a head turner if you're an
out of town railbuff. I'm used to it (though when the C-3s came online,
the cab car horns used to drive me nuts cause I'd think it was an MU
approaching and instead, I'd get a silly silver brick...).
Have yet to hear an M-7. Hopefully they'll be unique too. The 5 horn
chime stuff everyone else has is boring as hell....
> The sound going "everywhere" had to do with the fact that most newer
> locomotives have had their horns buried into a niche in the loco roof
> midships, and the sound goes sideways instead of forward where it is
> needed. Amtrak's Genesis units are all the same; I live next to the
> tracks where the F59PHI's of Amtrak run, and it's the same with them.
Yeah. It works out west. When you've got homes < 50 feet from the
tracks, it doesn't work as well.
> I'm going to surmise that on the Acela units, from what everyone has
> said, that before the horns were bolted down to the roof, someone
> removed the "restrictor" from inside the horn. It's a 1/2" pipe plug
> with a 1/8" hole through it....most horns have this in there, and
> remove it and WOW!!! You'd be surprised what these horns can REALLY
> do.
Can we find and beat the idiot that thought of doing that?
As an aside, I recall reading that when the GG-1s were first built, they
were supposed to get the same horns as the MP-54s had. That would have
been interesting, to say the least...
HAYTI REBL
DD40's with the "air raid" siren on them?
Tom
The report claimed the aircraft made funny noises, I walked out and told it to
start sounding like a real airplane....or else
John Albert
<< The HHP-8's and Acela trainsets have the very same Airchime Ltd. K5LA
hornset as the AEM-7's.>>
Um, no, they don't.
Take a closer look. You can see very clearly now that the rooftop fairings
on the Acela Express trainsets have been removed.
- John
Jeff Finch
>The HHP-8's and Acela trainsets have the very same Airchime Ltd. K5LA
>hornset as the AEM-7's. But the operating valve for the horn is a
>solenoid controlled on-or-off valve. The actual air valve is right
>under the horn, so the air pressure hits the horn immediately.
I have been told that the horns on the Acela are split into 2 separate
units of 3 and 2 bells each.
--
Jeff Finch
Hosting the first Central NY RPM meet, November 2, 2002
Grew up in a D&H town, Oneonta, NY.
Moved to NYC country, Syracuse, NY.
Then NYNH&H and Boston & Albany region, South Eastern Mass.
Now living in an O&W town, Franklin, NY,
within hearing of the now-CP D&H
*****To reply to me, change brainboing to mindspring*****
John Albert
vis-a-vis the horns on the Acela Express and the HHP-8 engines):
<< It still has the same five notes.... >>
No, Steve, they don't.
Honestly, have you even _heard_ them? _I_ listen to them EVERY day at work.
There's no use debating this further. The horns -- and the sounds they
produce -- are distinctly _different_ on the new equipment. Anyone who's
been around the new equipment will tell you the same.
Indeed, Metro-North's P-32's "sound more like Amtrak engines" than do the
Acela trainsets. That's because the P-32's use the _same_ 5-chime horns and
mountings as do Amtrak's Genesis engines.
If one hears _any_ Metro-North P-32 without seeing it, the sound of the
horn will immediately suggest "Amtrak" (in the traditional sense).
If one hears _any_ Acela or HHP-8 horn, the sound produced will be
immediately distinguishable from a "traditional" Amtrak horn.
Cheers!
- John
bras...@despammed.com
I suppose now would be a good time for the Medco #8 story.
The people at the Southern Oregon Chapter of the National Railway
Historical Society own a Baldwin S-8 switcher with dynamic brakes -
perhaps the last one of those around anywhere. It was used for a number
of years on the Medco logging line running northeast out of White City,
Oregon.
After Medco switched to trucks in the 1960's, the locomotive was sent to a
mining operation in Arizona.
During its life, of course, various parts were removed and replaced with
parts that were not exactly to the original Baldwin specifications.
A few years back, the Southern Oregon Chapter obtained the locomotive and
moved it back to Oregon, and restored it to operating condition. It is
perhaps even "better than new" condition, as the wheel bearings have been
replaced with roller bearings.
Then they hit the horn on the thing...
BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTT!!!!!!!
What on earth is that? No locomotive horn ever sounded that loud and that
obnoxious.
Then they found out:
Oh, yeah, the horn got taken off the unit and misplaced at one time. So,
the mining operating replaced it with a spare tugboat horn from the
blacksmith shop (where on earth in Arizona is there tugboats around to get
spare horns from???)....
The people at the Southern Oregon NRHS say that they now have a more
railroad-like horn on the unit.
Merritt Mullen
wrote:
> Steve Hoskins wrote (regarding the horns used on existing Amtrak engines
> vis-a-vis the horns on the Acela Express and the HHP-8 engines):
> << It still has the same five notes.... >>
>
> No, Steve, they don't.
>
> Honestly, have you even _heard_ them? _I_ listen to them EVERY day at work.
>
> There's no use debating this further. The horns -- and the sounds they
> produce -- are distinctly _different_ on the new equipment. Anyone who's
> been around the new equipment will tell you the same.
I think where you guys are disconnecting is that Steve said they produce
the same five notes, but he did not say they sound the same as other
installations.
As any musician will tell you, the same notes do not imply the same sound.
A lot will depend on the installation, which will affect attenuation and
overtones (not to mention changes that occur with aging and damage).
Other than seeing the musical description of the horns on the internet
(and playing the notes on a keyboard), I have no experience comparing the
real horns, so I will have to defer to you and Steve. I just wanted to
point out that you may both be agreeing and think you are disagreeing.
Merritt
bras...@despammed.com
sjhho...@earthlink.net wrote:
> They probably just called it a "tugboat horn" as that is what it
> sounded like. From what you describe it was most likely a Wabco or
> Leslie single-noter. Railroad people call them "cow horns" or "fog
> horns" or a few other unmentionable names.
Not according to one source. Someone more familiar with Magma Arizona's
operation said that the horn they had in the blacksmith shop was a
Kalenburg Bros. four-chime tugboat horn.
To my ears, I certainly have never noticed any four-chime sound to the
horns used on the boats on the rivers in my area! They all seem to have
one very low tone that is designed to dominate all the other tones and
travel very long distances. Which, I suppose, is what you want on a
tugboat or ship, I would think.
randee
steam locomotive you ask -- The coastal route where that engine was used
gets a lot of fog, and air horns carry better in the fog than steam
whistles, especially when facing forward.
Steve Hoskins wrote:
>
> On Thu, 03 Oct 2002 23:58:15 -0000, bras...@despammed.com
> (bras...@despammed.com) wrote :
>
> >
> >I suppose now would be a good time for the Medco #8 story.
> >
> >The people at the Southern Oregon Chapter of the National Railway
> >Historical Society own a Baldwin S-8 switcher with dynamic brakes -
> >perhaps the last one of those around anywhere. It was used for a number
> >of years on the Medco logging line running northeast out of White City,
> >Oregon.
> >
> >After Medco switched to trucks in the 1960's, the locomotive was sent to a
> >mining operation in Arizona.
> >
> >During its life, of course, various parts were removed and replaced with
> >parts that were not exactly to the original Baldwin specifications.
> >
> >A few years back, the Southern Oregon Chapter obtained the locomotive and
> >moved it back to Oregon, and restored it to operating condition. It is
> >perhaps even "better than new" condition, as the wheel bearings have been
> >replaced with roller bearings.
> >
> >Then they hit the horn on the thing...
> >
> >BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTT!!!!!!!
> >
> >What on earth is that? No locomotive horn ever sounded that loud and that
> >obnoxious.
> >
> >Then they found out:
> >
> >Oh, yeah, the horn got taken off the unit and misplaced at one time. So,
> >the mining operating replaced it with a spare tugboat horn from the
> >blacksmith shop (where on earth in Arizona is there tugboats around to get
> >spare horns from???)....
>
> They probably just called it a "tugboat horn" as that is what it
> sounded like. From what you describe it was most likely a Wabco or
> Leslie single-noter. Railroad people call them "cow horns" or "fog
> horns" or a few other unmentionable names.
>
> Almost every last air horn intended for railroad use (and many for
> marine use) have the same mounting "system" -- a flat spot on the roof
> where the air pipe ends flush with the roof surface (or a bracket),
> and four threaded holes for 3/4-inch bolts. You put a 1/2" rubber
> gasktet (cut to match the flat spot and four bolt holes and an air
> hole in the middle) between the horn and the roof, bolt it down, and
> sound off.
--
wf.
Wayne Flowers
Randee Greenwald
ran...@zianet.com
John Wilson
bras...@despammed.com wrote:
FWIW, the traditional setup, at least in East Coast ports was that the
pitch of the horn gave you a clue of the size of the vessel, in case you
couldn't see it (fog, behind a pier shed, etc.). The special edition of
"The Shipbuilder and Marine Engine-Builder" published when the Queen
Mary went into service has a writeup about the design effort that went
into the whistle to produce the lowest pitch of any ship to date; IIRC
it was 60Hz. I remember tugs as generally having high pitched peeps,
with ferries and such in between. That gave you some clue, when ships
were "talking" to one another with their whistles, who was saying what.
BTW, modern ships have lights on the mast that light when the whistle
blows, so if you can see the ship, you tell who just told you they were
turning right or whatever.
The pitch ~ 1/ship size relation has been somewhat mitigated as the
world went to diesel power and there wasn't steam for whistles. I was on
a Jeremiah O'Brien cruise (San Francisco's Liberty Ship), and up the
Alameda Estuary, a modern motorship at the shipyard in Alameda blew a
salute as we passed. It was a pitiful blaat, a lot like the low
single-note horn of a GG1, compared with the seismic bellow from the
steam whistle on the O'Brien.
Didn't the SP 4449 end up with a boat whistle? It sure sounds like it.
73,
JohnW
randee
All of this discussion of horns has prompted me to finally open a book I
obtained a short bit ago -- 'The Engine's Moan, American Steam
Whistles', by E. A. Fagen and the members of the Horn and Whistle
Enthusiasts Group (Astragal Press, ISBN 1-931626-01-4). Despite what
appears to be an extensive discussion of various manufacturers and
plentiful illustrations, there does not appear to be much discussion of
the whistle chords. The author in fact points out that apparently there
is only one compilation of whistle chords in the literature and that was
by a Deane Ellsworth and appeared in the April '76 issue of Live Steam
magazine.
The summary:
Hancock three chime: A-C-E, used by IC, UP, WM, Southern, & others. An
A minor in root position in a low register.
Nathan three chime: B-D#-F#. A B major triad in root position in a low
register.
Pennsylvania RR three chime: E-G-B. Later adopted by Nathan. An E
minor triad in root position.
Southern three chime: A flat-C-F. An F minor triad in first inversion.
Erie three chime: G-C-D. Not based on a triad, called 'eerie'!
UP five chime: B-D-F#-G#-B. A B minor sixth chord with doubled root.
CB&Q five chime: G-B-D-E-G. A G major sixth with doubled root.
CN five chime: G-B-D-F#-G. Substitutes the seventh for the sixth of
the 'Q' whistle.
Nathan six chime: D flat-E flat-F-A flat-B-E flat, used by NYC and
Nickel plate. SP built a similar one. A D flat major ninth chord in
root position with doubled ninth.
SP/GTW six chime: D flat-E flat-F-G-B flat-D flat. An E flat major
ninth in third inversion with doubled seventh.
It used to be the case that an engine was frequently assigned to an
engineer, and so the engineer frequently had the local shop either make
them a whistle, or customize a production unit. Many engineers became
legends in their own time, known far and wide for their whistle
artistry. The best was thought to be an engineer on the IC, his whistle
resides with his family today. It was made by the IC shops and is an
open tube six chime, looking indeed like a pan pipe wound round into a
cylinder. In fact he became a legend even greater probably than that
steel drivin' man Jawn Henry...........
Steve Hoskins wrote:
<<snip horn discussion>>
>
>
> Thanks, Merritt. That IS what I was trying to say, that the notes are
> the same -- but due to technical differences (valves, mounting
> location, possible internal modifications) the sound IS quite
> different.
>
> What I DID find out -- I have a contact at Airchime Ltd., the air h
bras...@despammed.com
Regarding the whistles in use on the Portland steam locomotives, in
particular the #4449:
My understanding is that the SP&S 700 and the SP 4449 are both using ex
Spokane Portland & Seattle whistles. I think I heard that they came from
the SP&S 900 series locomotives, which I think were the Challengers.
randee
can sound these out on a piano or organ.
randee
Steve Hoskins wrote:
>
> On Sat, 05 Oct 2002 17:35:26 -0600, randee <ran...@zianet.com> wrote :
>
> >BTW, forgot to mention, I would be curious as to opinions if any of you
> >can sound these out on a piano or organ.
>
> Years ago, some relatives had an electric organ, and I tried sounding
> out the various air horn chords that I had the notes listed for.
>
> They don't sound at all the same on an electric organ as they do on a
> locomotive being sounded with air.
Ed Light
"randee" <ran...@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:3D9F9278...@zianet.com...
> Guess you'd have to try sounding them on a pipe organ in that case.
Most electronic keyboards have a pipe organ.
--
Ed Light
Ed Light
> BTW, forgot to mention, I would be curious as to opinions if any of you
> can sound these out on a piano or organ.
I'll try to unpack my keyboard and set it on pipe organ and make some wma's.
But I may not be able to get to it.
If I do I'll post to this thread.
--
Ed Light
randee
--
mrob...@worldnet.att.net
>The author in fact points out that apparently there is only one
>compilation of whistle chords in the literature and that was by a
>Deane Ellsworth and appeared in the April '76 issue of Live Steam
>magazine.
Here are some simulations of these horns. They are computer-generated
sinewaves with the notes indicated - they won't sound like a real train
horn but you will be able to hear the relative sounds. C is assumed to
be middle C (C3) and I have listed the notes I used to create each one -
let me know if I made any mistakes. Each note is the same volume in the
chord. The files are .wav files, 8 bit, mono, 11.025 KHz, and are two
seconds long - about 22 Kb each. Made with the 'tones' program in the
siggen v2.3 package from ftp://ftp.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pub/linux/apps/ .
>Hancock three chime: A-C-E, used by IC, UP, WM, Southern, & others.
http://members.cox.net/mroberds/hancock3.wav a2,c3,e3
>Nathan three chime: B-D#-F#.
http://members.cox.net/mroberds/nathan3.wav b2,d#3,f#3
>Pennsylvania RR three chime: E-G-B.
http://members.cox.net/mroberds/penna3.wav e3,g3,b3
>Southern three chime: A flat-C-F.
http://members.cox.net/mroberds/southern3.wav g#2,c3,f3
>Erie three chime: G-C-D.
http://members.cox.net/mroberds/erie3.wav g2,c3,d3
>UP five chime: B-D-F#-G#-B.
http://members.cox.net/mroberds/up5.wav b2,d3,f#3,g#3,b3
>CB&Q five chime: G-B-D-E-G.
http://members.cox.net/mroberds/cbq5.wav g2,b2,d3,e3,g3
>CN five chime: G-B-D-F#-G.
http://members.cox.net/mroberds/cn5.wav g2,b2,d3,f#3,g3
>Nathan six chime: D flat-E flat-F-A flat-B-E flat, [...]
http://members.cox.net/mroberds/nathan6.wav c#3,d#3,f3,g#3,b3,d#4
>SP/GTW six chime: D flat-E flat-F-G-B flat-D flat.
http://members.cox.net/mroberds/spgtw6.wav c#3,d#3,f3,g3,a#3,c#4
Extra bonus sound: all of the above, together...
http://members.cox.net/mroberds/trainwreck.wav
Matt Roberds
randee
chime panpipe. The whistle is still extant apparently. Actually these
are whistles, not horns.
--