BNSF freight blows door off Cascade Tunnel!
Kerwin
newscast that an eastbound BNSF freight had crashed through the door
at the east portal of Cascade Tunnel. The report said the accident
occured around 2am on the 4th. ( showed helicopter view of east
portal ) ( showed "cartoon" graphic of ventilation procedure for
eastbound trains ). They did an interview with a railfan who was at
the scene soon after the accident and described some damage to the
lead loco (broken headlight, etc ). The story implied that the door
was partly open when the train struck it, causing major damage to the
door. Unknown how long repairs will take or how it will affect train
movements through the tunnel.
Too bad they didn't show video of the loco or door. The loco is
supposed to be at Interbay.
Kerwin
Colin R. Leech
Why would there be a door on the end of the tunnel if it is still in
regular use?
--
##### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag...@freenet.carleton.ca
##### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
##### > < Opinions are my own. Consider them shareware if you want.
##### >_./|\._< "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown
JonJonJon
newscast that an eastbound BNSF freight had crashed through the door
at the east portal of Cascade Tunnel. The report said the accident
<Why would there be a door on the end of the tunnel if it is still in
regular use?>
Thw door on the East end is closed after a train passes through to
facilitate ventilation via the two very large blowers , also located at
the east portal. Evidently it takes about 20 minutes to clear all 7.79
miles of the tunnel, creating the bottleneck that has prompted BNSF to
re-open the adjacent Stampede Pass line of the former NP. The larger
question is: why would a door be needed in the first place? Wouldn't the
foce of the fans be ebnough to clear the tunnel?
Jon Snyder
Silas Warner
>
>Why would there be a door on the end of the tunnel if it is still in
>regular use?
>
blowing out the same end, it's sealed with a door until the train
arrives. That way, the air blows all the way through the tunnel to
the other end.
Silas Warner
David Ryujiro Olsen
> <Why would there be a door on the end of the tunnel if it is still in
> regular use?>
>
> re-open the adjacent Stampede Pass line of the former NP. The larger
> question is: why would a door be needed in the first place? Wouldn't the
> foce of the fans be ebnough to clear the tunnel?
The fans obviously can't be sitting on the track pointing toward
the west portal, so they would have to blow into the tunnel from the side
or above the track. If the East portal was open, most of the air would
just exit out that way. With the door closed, the air blows into the
tunnel, and is forced towards the west end by the door. It would work the
same way if you poured water into a pipe from a hole in the side. If you
have one end block off, it overflows towards the other.
Dave Olsen
GDRowan
(JonJonJon) writes:
> The larger
>question is: why would a door be needed in the first place? Wouldn't the
>foce of the fans be ebnough to clear the tunnel?
Simple answer. with the fans at the east end by the door, most (if not
all) of the air
they move will pass through the east door. Little, if any, of that air
will pass through
the west door. The purpose of the door being closed is to force the air
path through the west end of the tunnel.
GDR
GDRowan
GDRowan
Ken Stitzel
: The fans obviously can't be sitting on the track pointing toward
: or above the track. If the East portal was open, most of the air would
: just exit out that way. With the door closed, the air blows into the
: tunnel, and is forced towards the west end by the door. It would work the
: same way if you poured water into a pipe from a hole in the side. If you
: have one end block off, it overflows towards the other.
This is exactly how the Moffat Tunnel in Colorado is ventilated. It's
a good show. A steel-reinforced curtain is usually kept in place over
the east portal. When a train approaches, the curtain goes up. (Obviously
it has to detect the train, so there must have been something wrong with
this mechanism for a train to hit the door in Cascade.) It's an eerie
sight seeing the headlight reflecting off the rails from deep in the
tunnel. Eastbounds emerge with dynamic brakes humming, westbounds are
still working uphill.
When the train clears the portal, the curtain drops and the fans kick on
to blow the fumes out the west end. Some of the huge machinery is located
outside of the tunnel portal buildings and makes a lot of impressive noise.
(It's all fenced off, but you can stroll around the perimeter and check it
out.) Huge clouds of black diesel come roiling out of the west end of the
tunnel, which is right at the base of the Winter Park ski area. (A charming
sight for the resort operators, no doubt.)
--
Ken Stitzel (k...@fc.hp.com)
Learning Products Engineer (tech writer with functional enhancements)
Hewlett-Packard Company (a pretty cool company to work for)
Fort Collins, Colorado, USA (opinions expressed herein not necessarily
representative of official HP tunnel
ventilation policy :-)
Frederick W Hyde
the door on the East Portal at Hyak. Methinks the door was put there to
keep the electrically generated heat in the tunnel to keep equipment from
freezing and ice forming in the tunnel. (see Blair Kooistra's piece "Of
ryegrass and Evergreens in June, 1979 Trains)
An aside:
Though BN ripped up the tracks through Snoqualimie Pass in 1987-88, I'm
interested why the BNSF folks aren't interested in relaying this line
instead of working with Stampede. Some potentially good reasons for doing so:
1) 1.74% eastward grade/0.4% westward grade vs. 2.2% both ways on Stampede
(less of a need for helpers)
2) Track will have to completely rebuilt over Stampede anyway
3) Snoqualmie tunnel is larger than Stampede, could easily handle auto
racks and potentially double stack cars as is (no need for expensive
tunnel rebuild)
4) Snoqualmie is less associated with the Tacoma watershed
(environmentally superior?)
5) I seem to recall a connection built by BN to connect with the old MILW
at Cedar Falls with the NP somewhere near Auburn, to get the trackage out
of the streets in Renton and allow widening of the highway through Male
Valley. Does this still exist?
Comments, anyone?
Matt Conrad
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) wrote:
>Why would there be a door on the end of the tunnel if it is still in
>regular use?
>
>
>--
>##### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag...@freenet.carleton.ca
>##### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
>##### > < Opinions are my own. Consider them shareware if you want.
>##### >_./|\._< "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown
Beang an Easterner, I can't really comment on the specifics of this
particular tunnel - but I can tell you that the East Broad Top's two
tunnels had doors on one end. They were put up as the result of a
derailment in which the lead truck of one of the Mikes was derailed in the
tunnel because of ice build-up on the tracks, from springs that leaked
into the tunnel. The engine crew didn't notice until the engine had exited
the tunnel and crossed a switch, at which point the loco completely
derailed and wound up on its side in a snowbank. EBT's tunnel doors were
only on one end of each tunnel and were there to keep the wind from
blasting through and causing the ice to build up on the tracks. They tried
several arrangements to open and close the doors, since trains broke
through them several times I don't think any were very reliable.
All this info is in the EBT souvenir book, which is where I found it out.
--
-Matt Conrad
J.M.Conrad Co.
http://web.InfoAve.net/~jmconrad/
Prividing fine art and Mac software for train nuts like myself
This tag line conforms to FRA Class 2 or better - which is TOO DAMN SLOW!
Paul Krueger
operations is the fact that it has become a very high profile recreational
trail. There is a group out here called Mountains to Sound that is
working on the creation of a greenway in the I90 corridor from the
Cascades all the way to Puget Sound (Seattle). They have been very
successful in pulling together the support of every level of government as
well as private companies such as Weyerhauser to put this greenway
together. I highly doubt the state would be as eager to convert a trail
back to rails in Snoqualmie Pass as they are in Eastern Washington,
especially as long as a feasible option like Stampede Pass is available.
Aside from that, I would think much more track would have to be relaid and
more bridges replaced in comparison to Stampede. Plus the tunnel on the
Snoqualmie route would need some degree of rehab as well, I assume. Add
this to the fact that BNSF would have to repurchase all the land for the
route, plus the time=money factor, and it seems pretty clear why Stampede
Pass looks more attractive.
Just my $.02,
Paul
==============
Paul Krueger Dept. of Landscape Architecture
University of Washington Box 355734
pkru...@u.washington.edu Seattle, WA 98195-5734
JStoneRail
Pass, the connection was never built between the NP and Milwaukee. The
only source of rail traffic in North Bend burned down, and Wash. Dept
Transportation didn't have to provide an alternative to the old Milwaukee
right of way through Renton which was closed when they rebuilt I-405.
The connection would have to be built through Seattle's watershed so the
easy way would just reopen Stampede Pass. Also, the Hull Creek Trestle
and another washed out thanks to clear cutting up stream.
John T. McGriff
The Moffat Tunnel in Colorado uses a door on the East Portal.
When a e/b train is about 3 minutes from the portal, a buzzer
goes off and the curtain (door) rises. Once the door is up, it's
pretty cool to look back up into the Tunnel and see the train
coming. Pretty cool.
The reason for the door is after a train has passed thru, the
curtain drops, and for the next 20-25 minutes the HUGE fans pump
air into the tunnel to ventilate it.
--
John T. McGriff
Camarillo, CA.
Southern California RailFan
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Cowpens
Flinthoof Ponypal
says...
>
>An aside:
>
>Though BN ripped up the tracks through Snoqualimie Pass in 1987-88, I'm
>interested why the BNSF folks aren't interested in relaying this line
>instead of working with Stampede. Some potentially good reasons for doing
so:
>
>1) 1.74% eastward grade/0.4% westward grade vs. 2.2% both ways on Stampede
>(less of a need for helpers)
>
Curves. Snoqualamie Pass has horrendous sharp curves on it on the
west side, and the east side also has problems with heavy snow slides beyond
Hyak. Unfortunately, the large concrete snowsheds that MILW built across
Keechelus Lake from I-90 are now long gone. Very expensive to rebuild.
>2) Track will have to completely rebuilt over Stampede anyway
>
The only rail that needs to be relaid is that in the tunnel itself.
Unlike the MILW, NP laid their line with heavy rail in the first place,
unlike the lightweight stuff that was meant to pass for mainline rail on
MILW. MILW built great roadbeds, but that's where their money ran out.
Lousy trackwork. Just look at the accident records.
>3) Snoqualmie tunnel is larger than Stampede, could easily handle auto
>racks and potentially double stack cars as is (no need for expensive
>tunnel rebuild)
MILW's tunnel was built high in the center for pantagraphs to pass
through. The corners were not. It would still require notching and more
likely complete relining of the tunnel interior. Stampede only needs
relining and having the floor dug out to lower it.
>
>4) Snoqualmie is less associated with the Tacoma watershed
>(environmentally superior?)
>
That's true, however it's also been infected with housing
developments, recreational areas, and more things on the old right of way.
NP did deal with the watershed before and had controlled run off. That's not
a factor today.
>5) I seem to recall a connection built by BN to connect with the old MILW
>at Cedar Falls with the NP somewhere near Auburn, to get the trackage out
>of the streets in Renton and allow widening of the highway through Male
>Valley. Does this still exist?
>
The line was torn out some decades ago in the 60's. It now is the
site of an expensive housing development and I sorta doubt they'll agree to
demolish their new homes.
Overall, it's really not feasible to use Snoqualamie Pass anymore,
especially with the NP route in good condition and awaiting use. Heck, there
are still industries along the line too. :)
Keith Sherry
>
>MILW's Snoqualmie Pass Tunnel also had doors, though I can recall only
>the door on the East Portal at Hyak. Methinks the door was put there to
>keep the electrically generated heat in the tunnel to keep equipment from
>freezing and ice forming in the tunnel. (see Blair Kooistra's piece "Of
>ryegrass and Evergreens in June, 1979 Trains)
>
>
>Though BN ripped up the tracks through Snoqualimie Pass in 1987-88, I'm
>interested why the BNSF folks aren't interested in relaying this line
>instead of working with Stampede. Some potentially good reasons for doing
so:
>
>1) 1.74% eastward grade/0.4% westward grade vs. 2.2% both ways on Stampede
>(less of a need for helpers)
>
>
In particular to point number two, the track over the pass is in very good
condition. The only actual rebuilding that will need to take place is right
around the tunnel itself. Some sidings and signaling will have to be
reinstalled elsewhere along the line.
[SNIP]
>5) I seem to recall a connection built by BN to connect with the old MILW
>at Cedar Falls with the NP somewhere near Auburn, to get the trackage out
>of the streets in Renton and allow widening of the highway through Male
>Valley. Does this still exist?
>
During the BN era there was no connection with the MILW with the exception of
on the east side of the Cascades for track removal. A proposed connection
would have happened at Kanaskat up near Palmer Jct east of Auburn.
Also, Repair work to some HUGE bridges (washed out) on the Snoqualmie Pass
line, as well as a partial line washout WAY UP on the side of a mountain,
plus relaying ALL the trackage over the pass, and building what now would be
a mandatory connection to the trackage into Auburn (reopening the the line
into Renton would now be impossible because of the lowering and straightening
of the I-405 s-curves) seems to make Stampede a better option.
--
================================================================
Keith Sherry - keith....@metrokc.gov -or- kei...@eskimo.com
Vashon, WA - Homepage - http://www.eskimo.com/~keiths/
================================================================
Warren Rugenstein
simple-
Closing one end of the tunnel allows huge fans to "flush" the diesel exhaust
from the previous train from the tunnel so the next train can efficiently
(and safely) move through the tunnel. A tunnel flush takes about 20 minutes.
Hence, you'll never see trains running "block to block" through the tunnel,
in spite of the high traffic density.
When the Great Northern had electric locomotives running through the tunnel,
such a flush was not needed since there was no diesel exhaust. Here's some
trivia- because of the heat generated by the locomotives in the Cascade
Tunnel, the paint used on BN(SF) locomotives has to meet a particular heat
specification such that it won't be melted off!
Evan L. Werkema
In a previous article, Warren_R...@acd.org (Warren Rugenstein) says:
>When the Great Northern had electric locomotives running through the tunnel,
>such a flush was not needed since there was no diesel exhaust. Here's some
>trivia- because of the heat generated by the locomotives in the Cascade
>Tunnel, the paint used on BN(SF) locomotives has to meet a particular heat
>specification such that it won't be melted off!
You'll have to forgive me for being sceptical of that last statement. Is
there documentation to back it up? The heat generated in the tunnel would
have to be a lot hotter than, say, the heat generated around the dynamic brake
grids, which take years to burn off the paint around them even when used
extensively and over long distances (SP, D&RGW, etc). For that matter, why
wouldn't SP/D&RGW have the same problem in Moffat? Does BN have to pay to
repaint the first few cars of every train through the tunnel too?
--
o_II_-__-__-----____________ ---------------- /====================\
I_________I__I I 870 I I I I I I I I oooooo II
/-o--0-0-0-0~~~~~o=o~==~o=o~~~o==o~~~~~~o==o~~~o=o=o~~~~~~~~~~o=o=o~~
Evan Werkem...@uclink4.berkeley.edu-Ship and Travel Santa Fe...All the Way!
land_of_the_u26c
>newscast that an eastbound BNSF freight had crashed through the door
>at the east portal of Cascade Tunnel. The report said the accident
>occured around 2am on the 4th......>
>The question is: why would a door be needed in the first place? Wouldn't
>the force of the fans be enough to clear the tunnel?
Without the door the natural ventilation of the tunnel would see a constant
breeze travelling in one direction. Whenever a train is travelling in this
same direction the hot exaust would be blown along with the train thus
causing cooling problems for each unit. The tunnel prevents this, while the
fans are used to remove the hot air left behind by the train.
Here in New Zealand we have a five-mile long tunnel (the Otira tunnel)
located on a constant 1-in-33 grade. Trains have been electric hauled on
this section since 1923. They have considered installing a door, but have
opted instead to modifying 14 U26C units (built in Pennsylvania in 1975)
by lowering their air intakes to running board level (where the cool air is)
which is similar in concept to the SD40T-2 units in the US. These units
will from May '96 be hauling unit coal trains up the grade with assistance
from the electric locomotives.
-Geoff Blackmore
Ed Letain
>On 8 Apr 1996, JonJonJon wrote:
>> <Why would there be a door on the end of the tunnel if it is still in
>> regular use?>
>>
>> re-open the adjacent Stampede Pass line of the former NP. The larger
>> question is: why would a door be needed in the first place? Wouldn't the
>> foce of the fans be ebnough to clear the tunnel?
> The fans obviously can't be sitting on the track pointing toward
>the west portal, so they would have to blow into the tunnel from the side
>or above the track. If the East portal was open, most of the air would
>just exit out that way. With the door closed, the air blows into the
>tunnel, and is forced towards the west end by the door. It would work the
>same way if you poured water into a pipe from a hole in the side. If you
>have one end block off, it overflows towards the other.
> Dave Olsen
The same basic system is use at Flathead Tunnel in Montana with the
backup power in case of commercial power failure being provided by an
EMD 645E3. As the BN guy giving us the tour said 'we have a lot of
people who know how to maintain them'
I am Pentium of Borg. Arithmetic is irrelevant. Prepare to be approximated !
Great Northern Railway Historical Society
Northern Alberta Institute of Technology -
Computer Network Administration Program (Novell, WIN/NT, Banyan)
Pierre A Plauzoles
So there are objections by certain "environmentalists" in the area? To
what? To the pollution from the trains? Hmmmm. Why don't they just
redirect their attention to the clear-cutting? I am positive the
clear-cutting did not destroy only the trestles. It probably flooded a
few farms and maybe some towns as well. I say blow the hypocrisy out the
window.
--
Pierre Plauzoles ae...@lafn.org
Canoga Park, California
Pierre A Plauzoles
In a previous article, gdr...@aol.com (GDRowan) says:
>In article <4kch65$c...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jonj...@aol.com
>(JonJonJon) writes:
>
>> The larger question is: why would a door be needed in the first place?
>> Wouldn't the force of the fans be enough to clear the tunnel?
>
>Simple answer. with the fans at the east end by the door, most (if not
>all) of the air they move will pass through the east door. Little, if
>any, of that air will pass through the west door. The purpose of the
>door being closed is to force the air path through the west end of the
>tunnel.
Another solution would be to locate the tunnel fans in a shaft near the
midpoint of the tunnel, but that would involve a lot more expense (in
most cases) due to the fan shaft. Unless you build an air path at a very
acute angle, the path of least resistance will be to the nearest opening,
perhaps producing a lot of *turbulence* in the air flow but, unfortunately,
not much really productive flow of exhaust gases *from* the tunnel.
Marc Dufour
==============================================================
David Ryujiro Olsen <dr...@acpub.duke.edu>
écrivit le - wrote on Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:43:51 -0400:
--------------------------------------------------------------
>On 8 Apr 1996, JonJonJon wrote:
>> re-open the adjacent Stampede Pass line of the former NP. The larger
>> question is: why would a door be needed in the first place? Wouldn't the
>> foce of the fans be ebnough to clear the tunnel?
> The fans obviously can't be sitting on the track pointing toward
>the west portal, so they would have to blow into the tunnel from the side
>or above the track. If the East portal was open, most of the air would
>just exit out that way. With the door closed, the air blows into the
>tunnel, and is forced towards the west end by the door. It would work the
>same way if you poured water into a pipe from a hole in the side. If you
>have one end block off, it overflows towards the other.
I managed to get a cab-ride though the new Saint-Clair tunnel last
week-end; I noticed that they installed several pairs of tiny fans
parallel to the tracks in the tunnel, but without any kind of central
injection of air, nor air ducts or end doors. I suppose that the tiny
fans manage to move enough air to clear the tunnel of smoke...
---------------- Pour la Republique Francaise du Quebec -----------------
The American dream is a nightmare to all those who don't experience it.
This .sig is illegal in the states, because it contains a dirty word.
Marc Dufour - [\] ACUC6 31874 - TDI CD-0197 - http://www.accent.net/emdx
Evan L. Werkema
In a previous article, hyde...@gold.tc.umn.edu (Frederick W Hyde) says:
>MILW's Snoqualmie Pass Tunnel also had doors, though I can recall only
>the door on the East Portal at Hyak. Methinks the door was put there to
>keep the electrically generated heat in the tunnel to keep equipment from
>freezing and ice forming in the tunnel. (see Blair Kooistra's piece "Of
>ryegrass and Evergreens in June, 1979 Trains)
DSP&P's Alpine tunnel had doors on one end as well, probably to keep snow
and ice out as well. They were on the end that's harder to get to today
(i.e. not where Alpine Tunnel station was.)
BVL
a different purpose, however, in that they were used to LIMIT the air
flowing through the tunnel. In the Winter, warm, moist air flows
from the West to the East and through the tunnel. As the air cooled,
it deposited its moisture on the tunnel walls, where it froze into
thick sheets of ice. Even with the doors it was a problem, and
some really spectacular shots have been made as the panographs
bounce along an iced wire, arcing and flashing.
There still exists an old wooden box or reffer at Hyak where the
'door opener' lived all winter.
Today, the tunnel is closed in the Winter to reduce the icing. Couple
of years ago went up before the state got interested, and inside
there were huge amounts of ice, some reaching from floor to ceiling.
This was late April, and it was melting fast. Sanity prevailed,
and did not venture inside.
Gordon.
In article <4lbs8s$6...@madeline.INS.CWRU.Edu>, el...@po.CWRU.Edu says...
Evan L. Werkema
In a previous article, b...@eskimo.com (BVL) says:
>The Milw Sno Pass tunnel doors were and are still in place. They served
>a different purpose, however, in that they were used to LIMIT the air
>flowing through the tunnel. In the Winter, warm, moist air flows
>from the West to the East and through the tunnel. As the air cooled,
>it deposited its moisture on the tunnel walls, where it froze into
>thick sheets of ice.
I thought that *was* the purpose of the doors on the Alpine tunnel. It
wasn't mechanically ventilated (more's the pity - several men once suffocated
in the tunnel while trying to clear a cave-in. For some reason, they were
working with a live steam locomotive in the tunnel.) If the doors weren't
meant to keep the ice out, what were they for?