HOW ABOUT THE DANGER OF THIRD RAIL?
ALCOGG1
I saw the third rail RR running through suburban neighborhoods.
Would this not be more dangerous than catenary since it is so close to the
ground?
ERIKG3
No because the third-rail is on private property and to touch it you must first
trespass.
No more dangerous than a transformer house.
-Erik
John Albert
<< I recently visited my aunt in Long Isand, she lives close to the LIRR
and I saw the third rail RR running through suburban neighborhoods.
Would this not be more dangerous than catenary since it is so close to
the ground? >>
The 3rd rail is lower voltage, and D.C. rather than A.C. The 700 volts
D.C. of the 3rd rail is a lot different to work around than the 12,000
volts A.C. of the overhead catenary.
Yes, the 3rd rail IS dangerous, but you really have to get between it
and the return running rail (or something else in contact with the
running rail) before the danger becomes deadly.
The Amtrak electrical operating instructions warn that parts of the
body, clothing or tools should not "come into contact" with the 3rd
rail, but beyond that, it doesn't say too much. Contrast that with the
rule that states that employees (other than "Class 1") are prohibited
from coming *within 3 feet* of energized catenary wires.
Go to Penn Station, and you'll see trainmen, workers, and car
department personnel working very close to the 3rd rail. They have to
(removing HEP cables, etc.)
A few anecdotal tales about 3rd rail:
Many years ago (1983), I used to work for Metro-North as a "hostler"
in the Croton-Harmon (NY) shops, moving MU cars around.
The track was a little "low" relative to the 3rd rail in some places,
low enough so that if you happened to stop in the wrong place, all the
shoes on the equipment would lose contact with the 3rd rail. You'd be
"dead", unable to move.
Well, to liven things back up, you'd take a soda can, stomp it flat,
then use a "shoe paddle" (flat stick used to insulate the shoes from the
3rd rail when necessary), and put the can on the end of the paddle.
Then, quickly stick it between the rail and the shoe. There'd be some
arcin' and sparkin', but with luck, you could get the equipment "alive"
again, long enough to get it moving back to "good rail".
Harmon was -- and is -- a big shop, so the hostlers would get a
"helper", a laborer who would assist by throwing switches, etc. I recall
seeing one of them liven up a car by taking his SHOE and pushing down on
the 3rd rail shoe, hoping that the spring pressure would "snap" it back
up to contact the rail! No kidding!
So -- I can state by virtue of experience and observation that the 3rd
rail -- although dangerous and deserving of respect -- isn't quite as
dangerous as the catenary. And I've grabbed ahold of that, too, with an
insulated pantograph pole!
Cheers!
- John
(AMT/ex-CR/CSX - but not NS [or Acela] - engineman)
Glen Brewer
I lived near the old Chicago, Aurora and Elgin out in the west Chicago
suburbs when I was a boy. Local mothers and dog owners were terrified of
the third rail. It was easily accessable at every grade crossing.
Can you imagine anyone even proposing such a thing in 2000?
"ALCOGG1" <alc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000727232357...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
Silas Warner
>
> I recently visited my aunt in Long Isand, she lives close to the LIRR and
> I saw the third rail RR running through suburban neighborhoods.
> Would this not be more dangerous than catenary since it is so close to the
> ground?
Today, third rail would never be used unless the track were thoroughly
fenced off. But unfenced third rail was common in the interurban days,
and still survives in some places like Chicago on the Ravenswood line
and Philadelphia on the Norristown line.
In these places the third rail itself is covered by an insulating hood.
This means that simply stepping on the third rail won't cause a current
flow. In order to actually touch the third rail, you have to reach into
the gap between hood and rail. In the old days, this was an acceptable
risk. Nowadays, this situation, along with a lawyer and an idipt,
would result in a hospitalized idiot, a lawyer with a mansion in Aspen
and a bankrupt railroad.
Silas Warner
Glen Brewer
sign stating: "Warning 600 volts". And there was no top protection for the
rail.
"Silas Warner" <si...@value.net> wrote in message
news:3981F4B8...@value.net...
Mike O'Dorney
John Albert wrote:
> A few anecdotal tales about 3rd rail:
> Well, to liven things back up, you'd take a soda can, stomp it flat,
> then use a "shoe paddle" (flat stick used to insulate the shoes from the
> 3rd rail when necessary), and put the can on the end of the paddle.
> Then, quickly stick it between the rail and the shoe. There'd be some
> arcin' and sparkin', but with luck, you could get the equipment "alive"
> again, long enough to get it moving back to "good rail".
> Harmon was -- and is -- a big shop,
>
A while ago, I heard a story about Croton-Harmon. It seems that
a crew had run a locomotive about 100 feet past the end of the third
rail and didn't have any diesel loco to pull it back. At the time, every
electric loco carried a twenty-foot "jumper cable" - a copper cable
with a long wooden pole at each end. A worker would poke one end
on the shoe and the other end on the third rail. It was intended for low
track and the gaps in the third rail system (sometimes the elaborate
switchwork did not leave room for the third rail and a loco had to move
fast and roll, unpowered through tose gaps).
But this loco was too far north. So the crew rounded up scrap metal-
fences, car hoods, trash cans, drainpipes, etc. (railroad tracks always
got more than its share of large litter) and built a hundred-foot long
string of metal along the track. They nudged a piece of metal from
the end of the third rail to the junk collection and used the jumper
cable to connect the loco to the other end of the junk. The junk
sparked and jumped (from the magnetic forces), and they often had
to poke junk back into place, but they worked the loco back to
electric territory in short order. Although the junk was touching the
(dry) ground, it was not "grounded" electrically.
--
Mike O'Dorney
modo...@nospam.aol.com
"To reply, please remove appropriate word."
Robert Coe
: A while ago, I heard a story about Croton-Harmon. It seems that
: a crew had run a locomotive about 100 feet past the end of the third
: rail and didn't have any diesel loco to pull it back. At the time, every
: electric loco carried a twenty-foot "jumper cable" - a copper cable
: with a long wooden pole at each end. A worker would poke one end
: on the shoe and the other end on the third rail. It was intended for low
: track and the gaps in the third rail system (sometimes the elaborate
: switchwork did not leave room for the third rail and a loco had to move
: fast and roll, unpowered through tose gaps).
: But this loco was too far north. So the crew rounded up scrap metal-
: fences, car hoods, trash cans, drainpipes, etc. (railroad tracks always
: got more than its share of large litter) and built a hundred-foot long
: string of metal along the track. They nudged a piece of metal from
: the end of the third rail to the junk collection and used the jumper
: cable to connect the loco to the other end of the junk. The junk
: sparked and jumped (from the magnetic forces), and they often had
: to poke junk back into place, but they worked the loco back to
: electric territory in short order. Although the junk was touching the
: (dry) ground, it was not "grounded" electrically.
Before you try that at home, remember that electrical grounding isn't an "all
or nothing" proposition. If you touch a 3rd rail and the ground, you might
get, say, 400V instead of 750. That's still enough to do some serious damage.
--
___ _ - Bob
/__) _ / / ) _ _
(_/__) (_)_(_) (___(_)_(/_____________________________________ b...@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, MA 01776-2120 USA ** 978-443-3265
Robert Coe
: Today, third rail would never be used unless the track were thoroughly
: fenced off. But unfenced third rail was common in the interurban days,
: and still survives in some places like Chicago on the Ravenswood line
: and Philadelphia on the Norristown line.
The last time I was in Chicago, the north end of the Evanston line was rather
poorly fenced. At the grade crossings were big gates across the tracks that
were opened to let the trains pass. A dog could easily get in while the gate
was open. Why don't they just string wire? They already use dual-mode cars on
the "Skokie Swift" (ex-CNS&M).
I'm surprised the Norristown line isn't fenced. Does it have grade crossings?
Robert Coe
wrote:
: The CA&E was fenced, but at every grade crossing, the only protection was
: a sign stating: "Warning 600 volts". And there was no top protection for
: the rail.
I assume they had bilingual signs (English and Dog)?
Merritt Mullen
Robert Coe at b...@1776.COM wrote on 7/29/00 6:30 AM:
> Before you try that at home, remember that electrical grounding isn't an "all
> or nothing" proposition. If you touch a 3rd rail and the ground, you might
> get, say, 400V instead of 750. That's still enough to do some serious damage.
It's the current that would change, not the voltage. I = E/R. The higher
resistance of the dry ground would reduce the current, but the voltage would
remain at 750.
Merritt
Silas Warner
>
> The last time I was in Chicago, the north end of the Evanston line was rather
> poorly fenced. At the grade crossings were big gates across the tracks that
> were opened to let the trains pass. A dog could easily get in while the gate
> was open. Why don't they just string wire? They already use dual-mode cars on
> the "Skokie Swift" (ex-CNS&M).
>
The Evanston line WAS overhead in the North Shore days, and for a few
years after the North Shore line stopped. The CTA had a few ex-North
Shore cars with trolley poles which ran in captive service from Howard
to Wilmette. But those cars began wearing out, and CTA removed the
trolley.
The Skokie line, it was judged, had too many grade crossings to put in
third rail. So the few CTA trolley-pole cars were supplemented by
adding bow trolleys to newer CTA cars for Skokie service. To this day
no cars go direct from the Loop to Skokie, but rush-hour expresses run
between the Loop and Evanston.
> I'm surprised the Norristown line isn't fenced. Does it have grade crossings?
Just a few and most of them private. Mostly the unfenced third rail
runs through suburban backyards and gardes.
Silas Warner
jhay
> Robert Coe wrote:
> >
> > The last time I was in Chicago, the north end of the Evanston line was rather
> > poorly fenced. At the grade crossings were big gates across the tracks that
> > were opened to let the trains pass. A dog could easily get in while the gate
> > was open. Why don't they just string wire? They already use dual-mode cars on
> > the "Skokie Swift" (ex-CNS&M).
> >
>
> The Evanston line WAS overhead in the North Shore days, and for a few
> years after the North Shore line stopped. The CTA had a few ex-North
> Shore cars with trolley poles which ran in captive service from Howard
> to Wilmette. But those cars began wearing out, and CTA removed the
> trolley.
They weren't CNS&M cars, but CTA 4000-series steel cars, plus a few of the PCC
transit cars. Last run under trolley was 11/7/73. You may be thinking of the
Chicago Rapid Transit service to Niles Center, which lasted from 1925 to 1948. The
Swift used most of this route later, but without any intermediate stops.
>
> > I'm surprised the Norristown line isn't fenced. Does it have grade crossings?
>
> Just a few and most of them private. Mostly the unfenced third rail
> runs through suburban backyards and gardes.
>
>
The Norristown line has no grade crossings, and never had any. There is a place
south of Haverford where SEPTA MofW or Peco Energy (they have an overbuild along
part of the line) vehicles can cross the ROW, but this is just ballast dumped over
the ties. Trains must stop when the school zone-type flashing lights on the track
are lit. But this is, again, a private, company-only crossing.
Wes Leatherock
Transformer houses do not have exposed conductors.
Wes Leatherock
wle...@sandbox.dynip.com
On 28 Jul 2000, ERIKG3 wrote:
> > I recently visited my aunt in Long Isand, she lives close to the LIRR
> >and
> >I saw the third rail RR running through suburban neighborhoods.
> >Would this not be more dangerous than catenary since it is so close to the
> >ground?
>
Alejandro Lieber
Frank A. Rosenbaum
--
Frank R.
Note New EMAIL address: faros...@mediaone.net
John Albert <j.al...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:39811F...@snet.net...
> alcogg wrote:
> << I recently visited my aunt in Long Isand, she lives close to the LIRR
> and I saw the third rail RR running through suburban neighborhoods.
> Would this not be more dangerous than catenary since it is so close to
> the ground? >>
There is a difference between the LIRR third rail and MNCR third rail. LIRR
is Overrunning, where the shoe is on top of the third rail, and the MNCR is
Underrunning where the shoe is under the third rail and there is a wooden or
plastic cover of some kind over 'most' of the third rail.
>
> A few anecdotal tales about 3rd rail:
> Many years ago (1983), I used to work for Metro-North as a "hostler"
> in the Croton-Harmon (NY) shops, moving MU cars around.
> The track was a little "low" relative to the 3rd rail in some places,
> low enough so that if you happened to stop in the wrong place, all the
> shoes on the equipment would lose contact with the 3rd rail. You'd be
> "dead", unable to move.
> Well, to liven things back up, you'd take a soda can, stomp it flat,
> then use a "shoe paddle" (flat stick used to insulate the shoes from the
> 3rd rail when necessary), and put the can on the end of the paddle.
> Then, quickly stick it between the rail and the shoe. There'd be some
> arcin' and sparkin', but with luck, you could get the equipment "alive"
> again, long enough to get it moving back to "good rail".
James F Boylan
>The last time I was in Chicago, the north end of the Evanston
>line was rather poorly fenced. At the grade crossings were big
>gates across the tracks that were opened to let the trains
>pass. A dog could easily get in while the gate was open. Why
>don't they just string wire? They already use dual-mode cars on
>the "Skokie Swift" (ex-CNS&M)
handle the poles were removed. Many Chicagoland crossings had
cattleguards, a short stretch of thin wooden slats set on their
edges parallel to the rails, which animals were supposed to
find uncomfortable to walk on. [Many railroads also used them
in the past, whether on not required by law. Philadelphia &
West Chester Traction Co. had them about 1910 on their overhead
wire trolley line to Ardmore, Pa., but they were gone before
Red Arrow Lines replaced the trolleys with busses in 1966.]
Long Island R.R. 3rd rail grade crossings don't have much more
protection than warning signs. LIRR uses the same kind of
overrunning 3rd rail with a coverboard as the Norristown line
and the New York City Subways. Chicago uses the same
overrunning 3rd rail as the old New York Elevateds, with no
coverboard. The 3rd rail shoes descend vertically onto the top
of the rail, and don't come in from the side, like almost
everywhere else!
James Boylan; General Freight Agent
--
James F Boylan
D.C. 3rd rail built their high level platforms like cattle
chutes with fences and locked gates at trackside. The crew
would use a switch key to let the passengers through. This
line occasionally had arcing between the 3rd rail and the cars'
journal boxes. This suggests that 2,400 volts may be above the
practical limit for 3rd rail voltage with normal construction
and clearance standards.
James Boylan
General Freight Agent
Fairless, Pa.
--
James F Boylan
>I'm surprised the Norristown line isn't fenced.
>Does it have grade crossings?
Philadelphia & Western Rwy. between 1905 and 1912 with wire
fences about 4' high on wooden posts. Over the years, rust,
rot, the weight of vines and trespassers, weather, and weed
removal have all served to reduce the hight of them, often to
the point of imvisibility. The line uses high platforms and
overrunning 3rd rail with a cover board. Overhead wire was
used in the shops and for the former street running at the
Norristown end. There, the 3rd rail ended before the bottom of
the ramp from the elevated to the street. There was a
pedestrian walkway at track level on the ramp, but a more
substantial fence was used between the walk and the track, and
the 3rd rail was on the other side of the track. There was at
least one gap in the fence to allow streetcars on the
connecting Lehigh Valley Transit interurban line to load from
the walkway if they couldn't or didn't use the high platform.
govcalif
> >
> > I recently visited my aunt in Long Isand, she lives close to the LIRR and
> > I saw the third rail RR running through suburban neighborhoods.
> > Would this not be more dangerous than catenary since it is so close to the
> > ground?
> fenced off. But unfenced third rail was common in the interurban days,
> and still survives in some places like Chicago on the Ravenswood line
> and Philadelphia on the Norristown line.
> This means that simply stepping on the third rail won't cause a current
> flow. In order to actually touch the third rail, you have to reach into
> the gap between hood and rail. In the old days, this was an acceptable
> risk. Nowadays, this situation, along with a lawyer and an idipt,
> would result in a hospitalized idiot, a lawyer with a mansion in Aspen
> and a bankrupt railroad.
> Silas Warner