Why no Amtrak station at National Airport (DCA)?
Mikey
plans, I wonder why an Amtrak station was never proposed for Washington
DC's Reagan National airport? The former RF&P mainline passes very close
by, and such a station could also serve the VRE (Virginia Railway Express).
A truly multi-modal transportation hub would be in order.
Yes, I know that Metrorail stops at DCA, and is very convenient to the new
main terminal at that. But getting directly from DCA to Amtrak or VRE is
actually kind of cumbersome. Transferring at King St. requires going down
to street level and walking a long way around and under the RR bridge
(which gives a feeling of being unsafe, justifiably or not) then up a long
ramp or flight of stairs to the train station. Travelling to Union Station
requires two Metro trains (yellow or blue to the red line), and L'Enfant
plaza (VRE only) is also a long haul upward. Franconia/Springfield might
be a friendlier transfer, but Amtrak does not stop there, nor does that
station serve the Manassas VRE line.
ALthough the best plan for such a station would be to extend a new rail
siding right through airport property, in all practicality that would be
cost-prohibitive, especially since the airport completely redid its road
system just 4 short years ago. The only other solution I can think of
would be to build an overhead crosswalk/moving sidewalk to a new station in
the Crystal City area.
I think a station like that could do well.
Mikey
aveenythecr...@aol.com
(drop the crossing gates to reply)
mr_potter
>
>What with airports like Newark (EWR) working a train station into their
>plans, I wonder why an Amtrak station was never proposed for Washington
>DC's Reagan National airport? The former RF&P mainline passes very close
>by, and such a station could also serve the VRE (Virginia Railway Express).
>A truly multi-modal transportation hub would be in order.
>
>Yes, I know that Metrorail stops at DCA, and is very convenient to the new
>main terminal at that. But getting directly from DCA to Amtrak or VRE is
>actually kind of cumbersome. Transferring at King St. requires going down
>to street level and walking a long way around and under the RR bridge
>(which gives a feeling of being unsafe, justifiably or not) then up a long
>ramp or flight of stairs to the train station. Travelling to Union Station
>requires two Metro trains (yellow or blue to the red line), and L'Enfant
>plaza (VRE only) is also a long haul upward. Franconia/Springfield might
>be a friendlier transfer, but Amtrak does not stop there, nor does that
>station serve the Manassas VRE line.
>
Getting from DCA to Union Station is not particularly difficult; I've done it a
number of times, with luggage, even during rush hours.
>ALthough the best plan for such a station would be to extend a new rail
>siding right through airport property, in all practicality that would be
>cost-prohibitive, especially since the airport completely redid its road
>system just 4 short years ago.
You just answered your own question.
>The only other solution I can think of
>would be to build an overhead crosswalk/moving sidewalk to a new station in
>the Crystal City area.
>
>I think a station like that could do well.
How so? Since Amtrak and the airlines are in fierce competition for traffic on
the Northeast Corrider, I can't see how this could be viable -- I don't think
Amtrak would extend it's Northeast Corridor routes to DCA. What percentage of
non - Northeast Corridor Amtrak routes could profit by a stop at DCA, really?
VRE, now that might be a different story....
Best
Greg
JF Mezei
People could take the train to the international airport and board a flight to
europe etc.
And if you look at Newark. Amtrak could take pax from the washington area and
bring them to EWR for their internationla flights. But there wouldn't be a
need to hook it up to DCA since people would board the amrtyrak train from the
downtown station, not the airport.
k_sumter
Station in DC and then walked to the Union Station subway station and
took it (the Metro) to DCA.
Access Systems
> Wouldn't it make more sense for Amtrak to serve Dulles instead of DCA ?
> People could take the train to the international airport and board a flight to
> europe etc.
you already can, Baltimore Washington International is actually closer
than Dulles and has both Light Rail, MARC and Amtrak service
Bob
R J Carpenter
>
> Wouldn't it make more sense for Amtrak to serve Dulles instead of DCA ?
Who's going to pay for the 25/30 miles of right-of-way and track that
doesn't exist?
The original Washington & Old Dominion Railroad that went to Sterling
[near IAD], and thence to Leesburg, closed down about 40 years ago and
the right-of-way is now a hiking / biking trail.
> People could take the train to the international airport and board a flight to
> europe etc.
As someone else mentioned, BWI has an AMTRAK / MARC train station with
free? shuttle bus. There isn't a lot of European service from BWI, but
there is at least some.
> And if you look at Newark. Amtrak could take pax from the washington area and
> bring them to EWR for their internationla flights.
But how many people would want to train to EWR (over 3 hours) instead of
the limo to IAD (<1 hour)? IAD claims to have 17 international airlines.
UA, BA, AF, LH, SAS, KLM, Sabena, Saudi, Swissair, Austrian, Spanair,
Aeroflot, Virgin, ANA to Japan. Korean, Ethiopian, TACA, Air Canada.
randee
stop, so no problemo.
--
wf.
Wayne Flowers
Randee Greenwald
ran...@zianet.com
ITRADE
Mikey <aveenythecr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Xns90859ACB6266...@207.172.3.55...
> What with airports like Newark (EWR) working a train station into their
> plans, I wonder why an Amtrak station was never proposed for Washington
> DC's Reagan National airport? The former RF&P mainline passes very close
> by, and such a station could also serve the VRE (Virginia Railway
Express).
> A truly multi-modal transportation hub would be in order.
>
> Yes, I know that Metrorail stops at DCA, and is very convenient to the new
> main terminal at that. But getting directly from DCA to Amtrak or VRE is
> actually kind of cumbersome. Transferring at King St. requires going down
> to street level and walking a long way around and under the RR bridge
> (which gives a feeling of being unsafe, justifiably or not) then up a long
> ramp or flight of stairs to the train station. Travelling to Union
Station
> requires two Metro trains (yellow or blue to the red line), and L'Enfant
> plaza (VRE only) is also a long haul upward. Franconia/Springfield might
> be a friendlier transfer, but Amtrak does not stop there, nor does that
> station serve the Manassas VRE line.
Why not transfer at Crystal City?
Rich
ITRADE
randee <ran...@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:3ADBCFC9...@zianet.com...
> Anybody flying in/out of that area would be using BWI, where Amtrk does
> stop, so no problemo.
>
of service out of IAD. I'd go to IAD first over BWI.
Rich
ITRADE
JF Mezei <jfmezei...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:3ADBAF38...@videotron.ca...
> Wouldn't it make more sense for Amtrak to serve Dulles instead of DCA ?
>
Manassas.
Rich
ITRADE
Access Systems <acce...@smarty.smart.net> wrote in message
news:tdnfvok...@corp.supernews.com...
RIch
Merritt Mullen
> What with airports like Newark (EWR) working a train station into their
> plans, I wonder why an Amtrak station was never proposed for Washington
> DC's Reagan National airport? The former RF&P mainline passes very close
> by, and such a station could also serve the VRE (Virginia Railway Express).
> A truly multi-modal transportation hub would be in order.
I'll second that. I used to work in Crystal City and lived in Burke Center
(out near Fairfax Station) and frequently went on business travel from
Washington National Airport. Although VRE wasn't running when I lived in
the area, if it had been and there was a connection to DCA, I would have
used it frequently (of course, I would have used it everyday to go to work
in Crystal City as well, as I lived within walking distance of the Burke
Center VRE station).
By the way, isn't it somewhat sacrilegious to replace the name of father of
the country with that of a recent and still living politician? Poor old
George Washington don't get no respect! Guess he wasn't conservative
enough.
Merritt
Justa Lurker
<mmu...@ispchannel.com> wrote in misc.transport.rail.americas:
| By the way, isn't it somewhat sacrilegious to replace the name
| of father of the country with that of a recent and still living
| politician? Poor old George Washington don't get no respect!
Wasn't the former name of Reagan National "Dulles National"?
Other than that, while Ronnie still breathes I find the
description of "politician" to be off the mark. Former
President Reagan is not involved in politics and due to
his illiness.
JL
HaRRy
misc.transport.rail.americas:
»It was Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:18:11 -0700, and Merritt Mullen
» <mmu...@ispchannel.com> wrote in misc.transport.rail.americas:
»| By the way, isn't it somewhat sacrilegious to replace the name
»| of father of the country with that of a recent and still living
»| politician? Poor old George Washington don't get no respect!
»
»Wasn't the former name of Reagan National "Dulles National"?
Good heavens, no! "Washington National Airport"! Dulles airport isn't
anywhere near there. Actually though, I believe "Washington National" was
named after the city, not ol' George directly.
HaRRy, San Diego
--
http://communities.prodigy.net/trains/
(To e-mail reply change no.spam to prodigy dot net)
Merritt Mullen
> It was Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:18:11 -0700, and Merritt Mullen
> <mmu...@ispchannel.com> wrote in misc.transport.rail.americas:
> | By the way, isn't it somewhat sacrilegious to replace the name
> | of father of the country with that of a recent and still living
> | politician? Poor old George Washington don't get no respect!
> Wasn't the former name of Reagan National "Dulles National"?
No, the former name was "Washington National Airport." It may have
officially been "George Washington National Airport", I'm not sure.
The other airport (in the Virginia suburbs) is "Dulles International
Airport" (IAD) It's name hasn't changed yet. In the spirit of
bipartisanism, I propose that Dulles be renamed "Clinton International
Airport." (just kidding, gang).
And the third airport is Friendship airport--oops--Baltimore-Washington
International Airport (BWI).
> Other than that, while Ronnie still breathes I find the
> description of "politician" to be off the mark. Former
> President Reagan is not involved in politics and due to
> his illiness.
A bit of a nit, I would say. Most people would rate President Reagan as a
great politician. Calling him "Ronnie" is a bit discourteous, in my
opinion.
Merritt
Merritt Mullen
> It was Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:18:11 -0700, and Merritt Mullen
Justa Lurker
<mmu...@ispchannel.com> wrote in misc.transport.rail.americas:
| No, the former name was "Washington National Airport." It may
| have officially been "George Washington National Airport", I'm
| not sure.
That is what I get for following trains. Sorry.
| In the spirit of bipartisanism, I propose that Dulles be
| renamed "Clinton International Airport."
Only if he is incompacitated. Some already believe Clinton
is brain dead, but enough about politics. :-)
| > Other than that, while Ronnie still breathes I find the
| > description of "politician" to be off the mark. Former
| > President Reagan is not involved in politics and due to
| > his illiness.
|
| A bit of a nit, I would say. Most people would rate President
| Reagan as a great politician. Calling him "Ronnie" is a bit
| discourteous, in my opinion.
Sorry. I hold him in highest esteem along with George and Abe.
I wish that they would have waited until he passed before doing
the namings, but he does deserve the honors.
JL
Wes Leatherock
Houston Intercontinental Airport--the principal airport
in Houston--was renamed George Bush International Airport.
(After the father, not the son.) There is also a George Bush
Highway under construction in the Dallas area north of the
Lyndon B. Johnson Freeway.
Wes Leatherock
wle...@sandbox.dynip.com
Dan Birchall
>
> Mikey <aveenythecr...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns90859ACB6266...@207.172.3.55...
> > What with airports like Newark (EWR) working a train station into their
> > plans, I wonder why an Amtrak station was never proposed for Washington
> > DC's Reagan National airport? The former RF&P mainline passes very close
> > by, and such a station could also serve the VRE (Virginia Railway
> > Express). A truly multi-modal transportation hub would be in order.
> Why not transfer at Crystal City?
I'm with Rich here.
Looking at the websites for VRE, DCA, Amtrak and WMATA, and some mapping
and satellite photo sites, it *looks* like the closest point for a
transfer would be Crystal City.
It's one stop from DCA on WMATA's blue/yellow line, less than a mile from
the airport. I'm not positive, but I from the satellite maps and whatnot
it *looks* like VRE and Amtrak share trackage there, so it might even be
possible for them to stop there if they really wanted.
It looks like the WMATA and VRE stations are roughly a block apart,
but the map at www.crystalcity.com indicates you can take climate
controlled pedestrian walkways from the WMATA station all the way to
across the street from the VRE one.
Could the integration be better? Sure. Someone obviously didn't think
about connecting WMATA, Amtrak/VRE/RFP trackage and DCA ahead of time,
non-interconnected systems were built as a result, and since the systems
are there, the odds of them spending lots more on an interconnect are
slim.
EWR, on the other hand, has the "luxury" of having been built without
any thoughts of integrating to *anything* other than roads, it seems,
so when it came time to think about integrating transit, there weren't
conflicting systems already in place. (The NJT bus from EWR to Amtrak
Penn Station in downtown Newark doesn't count. ;)
My current pondering involves why 2 express bus routes go *right past*
HNL on the freeway (yes, there are ramps) and don't stop, and only the
stops-every-block local ones do. :)
-Dan (probably 'cos the express ones don't go to Waikiki)
--
Dan Birchall - Palolo Valley - Honolulu HI - http://dan.scream.org/
My addresses expire... take out the hex stamp if your reply bounces
Matthew Sheren
> EWR, on the other hand, has the "luxury" of having been built without
> any thoughts of integrating to *anything* other than roads, it seems,
> so when it came time to think about integrating transit, there weren't
> conflicting systems already in place. (The NJT bus from EWR to Amtrak
> Penn Station in downtown Newark doesn't count. ;)
That's because EWR had the luxury of being built in the 30s when intermodal
transportation was pretty far from anyone's mind. Thankfully, the airport
monorail is due to be connected to Newark Penn Station sometime this year,
finally putting at least 1 New York airport (and mine, no less!) on a transit
system. Speaking of the NJT bus, however, I took it last week, and despite it
being 4 times the price of other NJT busses ($4 vs. $1, and the drivers won't let
you on the local EWR to Newark Penn Station busses if you have luggage. Legal?
Not by a long shot, but I had nearly my body weight of luggage, so I was just
fine paying a little extra. It also let me complete the famed planes, trains,
and automobiles trifecta in making my journey :>
Matthew :)
randee
destinations?
--
Jessie Collins
EWR was originally constructed with the hooks to eventually add a monorail. When it
was finally built however (10 yrs ago?) they ended up having to do quite a bit of
retrofitting as times have changed since then.
randee
originally Washington National Field, as in Stapleton Field, Lindbergh
Field, Meigs Field, Hobby Field, etc.? Somewhere I recall airports were
to be named 'Something' Field, in recognition of the fact that they were
all fields originally.
--
Geoff Arnold
> Icelandair goes out of BWI, what other airline is there to overseas
> destinations?
Conveniently, all of this is available at
http://www.bwiairport.com/frames/4_international.html
CITY AIRLINE # FLIGHTS
ACCRA GHANA AIRWAYS 2 per week
BERMUDA US AIRWAYS 1 daily
DUBLIN AER LINGUS
FREEPORT, BAHAMAS LB LIMITED 2 per week
LONDON, ENGLAND BRITISH AIRWAYS 1 daily
MONTEGO BAY, JAMAICA AIR JAMAICA 1 daily
REYKJAVIK, ICELAND ICELANDAIR 1 daily
SHANNON AER LINGUS
TORONTO, CANADA AIR CANADA, US AIRWAYS 11 daily
randee
internationally, just as they only use Southwest stateside and Mexico.
Compare prices, say BWI/Frankfurt. Altho it is my vague recollection
that Icelandair still uses reserve seats rather than open seating.
--
John R Levine
>any thoughts of integrating to *anything* other than roads, it seems,
You might think so, but the possibility of extending PATH to the
airport was serious enough that the three new terminals were designed
with that in mind. I don't understand why that didn't happen and they
built the goofy monorail instead, but it definitely goes where the PATH
trains were supposed to be.
PATH would have been much better than the monorail, since it would
have offered a one-seat ride into NYC, rather than the current scheme
where you'll have to change to a commuter train at Elizabeth.
--
John R. Levine, IECC, POB 727, Trumansburg NY 14886 +1 607 387 6869
jo...@iecc.com, Village Trustee and Sewer Commissioner, http://iecc.com/johnl,
Member, Provisional board, Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial E-mail
R J Carpenter
>
> That's because EWR had the luxury of being built in the 30s when intermodal
> transportation was pretty far from anyone's mind.
DCA opened June 16, 1941, at which time Hoover Field was closed and the
Pentagon was built in its place. The new DCA terminal with direct Metro
connection opened July 27, 1997. I'd guess that AB&W buses served DCA
from the begining.
EWR was about a decade earlier.
But both were before trains to airports were a big thing in the USA.
Merritt Mullen
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:03:44 GMT, /dev/null@.com (Justa Lurker) wrote in
> misc.transport.rail.americas:
>
> »It was Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:18:11 -0700, and Merritt Mullen
> » <mmu...@ispchannel.com> wrote in misc.transport.rail.americas:
> »| By the way, isn't it somewhat sacrilegious to replace the name
> »| of father of the country with that of a recent and still living
> »| politician? Poor old George Washington don't get no respect!
> »
> »Wasn't the former name of Reagan National "Dulles National"?
>
> Good heavens, no! "Washington National Airport"! Dulles airport isn't
> anywhere near there. Actually though, I believe "Washington National" was
> named after the city, not ol' George directly.
But to be consistant, they are planning to change the name of the city to
match the new name of the airport. It will soon be "Reagan DC." To gain
bipartisan support the "DC" will stand for "District of Clinton."
Merritt
ITRADE
randee wrote:
>
> Yes, there are other airlines, but *real* travelers only use Icelandair
> internationally, just as they only use Southwest stateside and Mexico.
> Compare prices, say BWI/Frankfurt. Altho it is my vague recollection
> that Icelandair still uses reserve seats rather than open seating.
>
What would a comparison of BWI-FRA show?
Rich
ITRADE
randee wrote:
>
> Icelandair goes out of BWI, what other airline is there to overseas
> destinations?
>
Thats nice. I'll be sure to Keep Icelandair in mind the next time I
want to fly to Tokyo or Mexico City.
Rich
ITRADE
Dan Birchall wrote:
>
> ITRADE <rd...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >
> > Mikey <aveenythecr...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:Xns90859ACB6266...@207.172.3.55...
> > > What with airports like Newark (EWR) working a train station into their
> > > plans, I wonder why an Amtrak station was never proposed for Washington
> > > DC's Reagan National airport? The former RF&P mainline passes very close
> > > by, and such a station could also serve the VRE (Virginia Railway
> > > Express). A truly multi-modal transportation hub would be in order.
>
> > Why not transfer at Crystal City?
>
> I'm with Rich here.
>
> Looking at the websites for VRE, DCA, Amtrak and WMATA, and some mapping
> and satellite photo sites, it *looks* like the closest point for a
> transfer would be Crystal City.
>
> It's one stop from DCA on WMATA's blue/yellow line, less than a mile from
> the airport. I'm not positive, but I from the satellite maps and whatnot
> it *looks* like VRE and Amtrak share trackage there, so it might even be
> possible for them to stop there if they really wanted.
>
> It looks like the WMATA and VRE stations are roughly a block apart,
> but the map at www.crystalcity.com indicates you can take climate
> controlled pedestrian walkways from the WMATA station all the way to
> across the street from the VRE one.
>
VRE and Amtrak share trackage at least as far south as the Alexandria
station.
Rich
David Chui
: system. Speaking of the NJT bus, however, I took it last week, and despite it
: being 4 times the price of other NJT busses ($4 vs. $1, and the drivers won't let
: you on the local EWR to Newark Penn Station busses if you have luggage. Legal?
Is that a recent thing? I've taken the $1 NJT local bus between EWR and
Newark Penn Station with luggage before without any problems, but that
was a couple of years ago.
- David
Matthew Sheren
pretty strict with the luggage thing, not letting me and my 110 lbs. was one thing, but
the drivers wouldn't even let on a CO FA who had just the typical tiny roll-aboard.
They justify the increased fare by making the Airlink a 3-digit bus (302) vs. the 2
digit local busses in Newark (town busses are 3 numbers elsewhere, except in Middlesex,
where they're M## style). There were at least 2 different local bus lines that were
going between EWR Terminal A and Newark Penn Station aside from the Airlink.
Matthew :)
John R Cambron
One must remember history, when WMATA put it's tunnel and station
through Crystal City the land that now has a number of office
buildings on it was part of the Potomac yards. The area was as I
recall about 10 tracks wide in this area of which 2 of the track on
the west side were used as the main line bypass track for passenger
trains. The idea of running Commuter rail service in Virginia had
not been thought of yet. When the Crystal City metro station opened
in 1977 one could see the yard track from the top of the station
entrance escalators. The present configuration has the CSX main
line running along the east side of what use to be the Potomac Yards
property tract from the north end of Crystal City to just north of
the Bradock Road metrorail station. Potomac yards was a very busy
place back in the 1970s with train coming an going at all hours of
the day, switchers working both humps and no thought of closing the
yard.
> EWR, on the other hand, has the "luxury" of having been built without
> any thoughts of integrating to *anything* other than roads, it seems,
> so when it came time to think about integrating transit, there weren't
> conflicting systems already in place. (The NJT bus from EWR to Amtrak
> Penn Station in downtown Newark doesn't count. ;)
>
> My current pondering involves why 2 express bus routes go *right past*
> HNL on the freeway (yes, there are ramps) and don't stop, and only the
> stops-every-block local ones do. :)
>
> -Dan (probably 'cos the express ones don't go to Waikiki)
--
======================================================================
NT Geek, MCP
Transit Geek
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/
Model Railroader HO N John R Cambron
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/sunbelt/ North Beach MD USA
Railroad Geek camb...@chesapeake.net
======================================================================
Dan Birchall
> Dan Birchall wrote:
>
> > EWR, on the other hand, has the "luxury" of having been built without
> > any thoughts of integrating to *anything* other than roads, it seems,
> > so when it came time to think about integrating transit, there weren't
> > conflicting systems already in place. (The NJT bus from EWR to Amtrak
> > Penn Station in downtown Newark doesn't count. ;)
>
> That's because EWR had the luxury of being built in the 30s when intermodal
> transportation was pretty far from anyone's mind.
1928, actually. I never realized it was that old.
> Thankfully, the airport monorail is due to be connected to
> Newark Penn Station sometime this year,
Um, no. If you've taken NJT or Amtrak between Newark and
points south, you may remember a big, largely empty area on
the south side of town that was kinda like an underused
rail yard/interchange/meadow sort of thing. That's quite
near EWR, and is home to a brand spankin' new station on
the Northeast Corridor. There's a picture of it at
http://www.panynj.gov/aviation/ewrconstruction_overview.htm#monorail2
Unfortunately, last time I went through EWR I was continuing on
to ATL, so I didn't have time to go look at it. :)
> finally putting at least 1 New York airport (and mine, no less!)
> on a transit system.
Well, the subway (the A train) goes out to JFK, but you have to catch
the shuttle across the parking lot to the terminal, yup. I actually
did that routine once some years back - coming up from South Jersey
by bus and/or train, subway to JFK for a transcon flight on Tower.
(Me? Masochistic? Why would you say that?)
I don't know if you've heard about it, but JFK is working on a monorail
of its own! http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/index.html
-Dan
Dan Birchall
> >EWR, on the other hand, has the "luxury" of having been built without
> >any thoughts of integrating to *anything* other than roads, it seems,
>
> You might think so, but the possibility of extending PATH to the
> airport was serious enough that the three new terminals were designed
> with that in mind.
I was thinking of the older terminals, yup. That's an interesting
concept. Given that PANYNJ runs PATH and EWR, it would've seemed
logical.
> PATH would have been much better than the monorail, since it would
> have offered a one-seat ride into NYC, rather than the current scheme
> where you'll have to change to a commuter train at Elizabeth.
Having spent many happy afternoons on PATH as a student, I don't
think it's particularly designed for travelers with much in the way
of luggage. NJT/Amtrak strikes me as more suited to those folks.
Backpack sorts like me, though... ah, I don't care.
-Dan
JF Mezei
>
> Probably.. I think the Airlink bus was a new thing about 2 or 3 years ago. They seem
> pretty strict with the luggage thing, not letting me and my 110 lbs. was one thing, but
> the drivers wouldn't even let on a CO FA who had just the typical tiny roll-aboard.
> They justify the increased fare by making the Airlink a 3-digit bus (302) vs. the 2
> digit local busses in Newark
Whene will the monorail be ready all the way to Penn Station ? Will it be part
of the airport, or will one have to pay to take the monorail ? Perhaps the bus
authority want to rake in some money before the monorail kills those bus lines ?
Merritt Mullen
>>
>> Could the integration be better? Sure. Someone obviously didn't think
>> about connecting WMATA, Amtrak/VRE/RFP trackage and DCA ahead of time,
>> non-interconnected systems were built as a result, and since the systems
>> are there, the odds of them spending lots more on an interconnect are
>> slim.
That is not exactly correct. Look at the sequence of events.
-First, there was the railroad, but there was no Crystal City, so therefore,
no Crystal City station.
-Second, the airport was built. At that time there was no thought of
connecting the airport and railraod.
-Third, Crystal City was built on the property of the RF&P RR (western
edge), putting the RR between Crystal City and the airport.
-Forth, MetroRail was built and someone DID think of connecting WMATA and
DCA and that is why there is a MetroRail station at the airport.
-Finally, VRE was created. By this time, historical development and
geography dictated that VRE serve Crystal City, rather than DCA.
Merritt
Merritt Mullen
> Matthew Sheren wrote:
>>
>> Probably.. I think the Airlink bus was a new thing about 2 or 3 years ago.
>> They seem
>> pretty strict with the luggage thing, not letting me and my 110 lbs. was one
>> thing, but
>> the drivers wouldn't even let on a CO FA who had just the typical tiny
>> roll-aboard.
>> They justify the increased fare by making the Airlink a 3-digit bus (302) vs.
>> the 2
>> digit local busses in Newark
>
>
> Whene will the monorail be ready all the way to Penn Station ?
There is no monorail to Newark Penn Station (or NY Penn Station). The
monorail runs between Newark airport and a brand new transfer station on the
NEC.
Merritt
Merritt Mullen
> I don't know if you've heard about it, but JFK is working on a monorail
> of its own! http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/index.html
That's not a monorail. It is light rail system (steel wheels on rail) with
a third rail power collection system.
Merritt
JF Mezei
> rail yard/interchange/meadow sort of thing. That's quite
> near EWR, and is home to a brand spankin' new station on
> the Northeast Corridor. There's a picture of it at
> http://www.panynj.gov/aviation/ewrconstruction_overview.htm#monorail2
Will the enw station have Path, NJT and Amtrak service ? Will Amtrak continue
to stop at Penn Station or just at the new station ? (what will be the name of
the new station ?)
Matthew Sheren
> > Thankfully, the airport monorail is due to be connected to
> > Newark Penn Station sometime this year,
>
> Um, no. If you've taken NJT or Amtrak between Newark and
> points south, you may remember a big, largely empty area on
> the south side of town that was kinda like an underused
> rail yard/interchange/meadow sort of thing. That's quite
> near EWR, and is home to a brand spankin' new station on
> the Northeast Corridor. There's a picture of it at
> http://www.panynj.gov/aviation/ewrconstruction_overview.htm#monorail2
Excellent! Actually, I hadn't noticed it specifically, there's a whole bunch of
rail yards and sidings, and stuff all along the tracks; although, now that I
think about it, I might have thought the station was for the Secaucus Transfer, a
big-hyped project that'll do something, but I've never needed to go through any
complicated systems to get anywhere, at lease after I moved from a town on the
Hoboken-bound line to a town on the Northeast Corridor (this was before the days
of Midtown direct service). The only downside I can see to this is that Amtrak
passengers will have to take an NJT train to get to the monorail, but in the
grand scheme, things could be a lot worse. Wow.. two new stations on the
Northeast Corridor (Hamilton) in three years.
Matthew :)
[bubbling over with excitement at this whole project, one that's going to wind up
saving me a good deal of money and time]
randee
of about $417 on Icelandair, about $500 on Delta AFAIR, and something
well over $1000 on American.
--
randee
doesn't go there, you don't need to go there either. I know a few folks
who say that about SWA also! Hmm, I know a few who say that about
Amtrk, and about Greyhound also. Must admit I'm hard pressed to come up
with other airlines that have a 'cult' following like Icelandair and
Southwest.
--
Jishnu Mukerji
Matthew Sheren wrote:
>
> Dan Birchall wrote:
>
> > EWR, on the other hand, has the "luxury" of having been built without
> > any thoughts of integrating to *anything* other than roads, it seems,
> > so when it came time to think about integrating transit, there weren't
> > conflicting systems already in place. (The NJT bus from EWR to Amtrak
> > Penn Station in downtown Newark doesn't count. ;)
>
> That's because EWR had the luxury of being built in the 30s when intermodal
> transportation was pretty far from anyone's mind. Thankfully, the airport
> monorail is due to be connected to Newark Penn Station sometime this year,
> finally putting at least 1 New York airport (and mine, no less!) on a transit
> system.
The Monorail extension connects not to Newark Penn Station, but to the
spanking new Newark Airport Station near where Haynes Avenue crosses
over the North East Corridor line (between Hunter and Lane
interlockings. Eventually, this station will have airline checkin
facilities, so that people arriving by trains will not need to schlep
their checkin baggage on the Monorail all the way to the terminal
buildings.
Jishnu.
ITRADE
> I picked a couple of random dates and tried Travelocity, getting a fare
> of about $417 on Icelandair, about $500 on Delta AFAIR, and something
> well over $1000 on American.
>
Rich
Merritt Mullen
> Dan Birchall wrote:
>>
>> Looking at the websites for VRE, DCA, Amtrak and WMATA, and some mapping
>> and satellite photo sites, it *looks* like the closest point for a
>> transfer would be Crystal City.
>>
>> It's one stop from DCA on WMATA's blue/yellow line, less than a mile from
>> the airport. I'm not positive, but I from the satellite maps and whatnot
>> it *looks* like VRE and Amtrak share trackage there, so it might even be
>> possible for them to stop there if they really wanted.
>>
>> It looks like the WMATA and VRE stations are roughly a block apart,
>> but the map at www.crystalcity.com indicates you can take climate
>> controlled pedestrian walkways from the WMATA station all the way to
>> across the street from the VRE one.
While the MetroRail station is in the Crystal City Underground shopping
area, you have to walk a significant distance inside, go outside, cross the
street, and walk about a half block to get to the outside, ground-level VRE
station. Not bad without luggage, but a real issue with luggage.
And I don't understand the suggestion to transfer at Crystal City to get to
National Airport. While that works for VRE, the question was about Amtrak,
and Amtrak does not stop at Crystal City. Even if Amtrak stopped there,
it's not a very good solution to have to walk a significant distance with
luggage to the MetroRail station (in a direction away from the airport) for
the one-stop ride to National Airport. The Crystal City VRE station is
actually closer to the airport than the Crystal City MetroRail station. It
would make more sense to put in a pedestrian overpass (with a moving
walkway) between the VRE station and the airport.
> VRE and Amtrak share trackage at least as far south as the Alexandria
> station.
Actually VRE and Amtrak share trackage the entire length of both of VRE's
lines. Amtrak stops at six of the VRE stations.
Merritt
David Chui
: passengers will have to take an NJT train to get to the monorail, but in the
: grand scheme, things could be a lot worse. Wow.. two new stations on the
: Northeast Corridor (Hamilton) in three years.
Amtrak will also serve the new Newark Airport station.
- David
JIMBEAR
at TF Green State Airport (PVD) where the NEC passes within 1,200
feet of the new Main Terminal. Amtrak and the MBTA will provide
passenger rail service at the facility.
"David Chui" <dc...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:0tDD6.4$8h2...@typhoon.nyu.edu...
randee
point.
--
Merritt Mullen
> Will the enw station have Path, NJT and Amtrak service ? Will Amtrak continue
> to stop at Penn Station or just at the new station ? (what will be the name of
> the new station ?)
I'll take a stab at answering those questions, and someone can correct me if
I get it wrong.
1. It will have NJT and Amtrak, but not PATH service.
2. Amtrak will stop at both the new station and at Newark Penn (but not all
trains will stop at both).
3. I believe the name of the station is simply "Newark Airport."
Merritt
Don Forsling
"Merritt Mullen" <mmu...@ispchannel.com> wrote in message
news:B704ACB6.421EB%mmu...@ispchannel.com...
: JF Mezei at jfmezei...@videotron.ca wrote on 4/18/01 10:34 PM:
:
This is not directed at this post, particularly, but here's the deal:
Most of us know the meaning of most of the acronyms and designators
for various rail services and major Amtrak stations. Many (I'm
guessing) are not familiar with more than a few airport designation
codes. Maybe using the location name of airports would help some
readers. It would help me. I know a lot of airport designation
codes, but in this discussion, I was unfamiliar with the one for
Dulles because I never land or take off from there--always DCA
(Reagan) instead. Anyway, it's just a suggestion because confusion
SUX (Sioux City).
--
============================
Don Forsling
ddfor...@qwest.net
http://www.woi.org
mr_potter
>
>But neither Amtrk nor SWA go into IAD, so it's useless as a transfer
>point.
>
Huh? Do you remember what you asked Rich earlier in this thread?
>ITRADE wrote:
>>
>> randee <ran...@zianet.com> wrote in message
>> news:3ADDF919...@zianet.com...
>> > I picked a couple of random dates and tried Travelocity, getting a fare
>> > of about $417 on Icelandair, about $500 on Delta AFAIR, and something
>> > well over $1000 on American.
>> >
>> I used travelocity and got $358 on US out of BWI and $358 on US out of IAD.
>>
>> Rich
>
>--
>wf.
>Wayne Flowers
>Randee Greenwald
>ran...@zianet.com
Best
Greg lol....
JF Mezei
> 1. It will have NJT and Amtrak, but not PATH service.
That is a shame. PATH gave you the option to go to World Trade Centre and more
uptown, whereas NJT only to Penn Station.
Or for the millions who want to transfer between EWR and JFK bu public
transit, PATH is better since you catch the A train at WTC to Howard Beach and
then take that light rail (in the future) to the terminals. :-) ;-) ;-)
ITRADE
> But neither Amtrk nor SWA go into IAD, so it's useless as a transfer
> point.
>
particular city and making claims that they are quite low. Well, they're
not necessarily better than another airport.
Rich
Jishnu Mukerji
>
> Merritt Mullen wrote:
> > 1. It will have NJT and Amtrak, but not PATH service.
>
> That is a shame. PATH gave you the option to go to World Trade Centre and more
> uptown, whereas NJT only to Penn Station.
PATH provides service more uptown? Uptown of what? The PATH 33rd St.
station is just one avenue block from Penn Station. Did you perhaps mean
to say downtown? And Yes, it does give the WTC option.
> Or for the millions who want to transfer between EWR and JFK bu public
> transit, PATH is better since you catch the A train at WTC to Howard Beach and
> then take that light rail (in the future) to the terminals. :-) ;-) ;-)
and what is the problem transfering to A for Howard Beach at Penn
Station, if that is what you want to do? Or even transfer at Penn
Station to LIRR to Jamaica to catch the Airtrain. Somewhat more
expensive than the A option I suppose, but probably a bit more pleasant
and faster.
J.
Merritt Mullen
Can't you still catch a shuttle bus from Newark Airport to Newark Penn
Station? I remember doing that years ago.
Of course, you could also ride the monorail to Newark Airport Station, catch
a train to Newark Penn Station, and transfer to PATH there, but that is
probably not a sensible thing to do.
Merritt
randee
either one would be considered a destination or starting airport, and
anyplace you can get to from one you can get to from the other.
--
randee
http://flyaow.com/airportcode.htm
There are other sites that have similar, or more, info e.g.
http://www.mapping.com/airportcodes.html
Don Forsling wrote:
>
>
> This is not directed at this post, particularly, but here's the deal:
> Most of us know the meaning of most of the acronyms and designators
> for various rail services and major Amtrak stations. Many (I'm
> guessing) are not familiar with more than a few airport designation
> codes. Maybe using the location name of airports would help some
> readers. It would help me. I know a lot of airport designation
> codes, but in this discussion, I was unfamiliar with the one for
> Dulles because I never land or take off from there--always DCA
> (Reagan) instead. Anyway, it's just a suggestion because confusion
> SUX (Sioux City).
> --
> ============================
> Don Forsling
> ddfor...@qwest.net
> http://www.woi.org
--
Matthew Sheren
station is at 33rd and 6th (Penn Station is 33rd and 7th); if I wanted to go to
the WTC, I would just get on the downtown E (the IRT probably goes there, too).
PATH doesn't serve any destination that the NYC Subway doesn't, and honestly, I
prefer the subway. I've got to get off the NJT train anyway, and if I switch in
New York, I can grab a Krispy Kreme on the way :> Oh, and the WTC stop is only
the E line. To catch the A, you have to go to the Chambers St. stop (Not sure of
the distance, I haven't been there in a while, I'm going off the MTA's unscaled
map); while the A stops at Penn Station.
Matthew :)
[who once spent 3 blissful hours sleeping in the World Trade Centre plaza after
the NYC MS100 bike ride]
David Chui
NY and then have to take the subway to come back downtown. Also the
NJT fare could be substantially cheaper to/from Newark than to/from
NY, for the budget-conscious.
The A/C Chambers St station is the same station as the E World Trade
Center station, but you have to walk at least the entire length of
the E platform to get from the A/C to the World Trade Center itself.
The 1/9 also goes from Penn Station to Cortlandt St, which is right
under the WTC mall.
And, there's a Krispy Kreme at the WTC. =)
- David
In misc.transport.rail.americas Matthew Sheren <matthew...@mcgill.ca> wrote:
: Ugh... it really doesn't matter. Aside from the fact that the northernmost PATH
:
Wes Leatherock
Because JFK has by far the largest number of international
flights. For international travelers from places other than
the immediate New York metropolitan area, neither of the
airports is a starting or destination airport, just a nuisance
along the way.
Wes Leatherock
wle...@sandbox.dynip.com
On Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:09:49 -0600 randee <ran...@zianet.com>
Merritt Mullen
>
> Because JFK has by far the largest number of international
> flights. For international travelers from places other than
> the immediate New York metropolitan area, neither of the
> airports is a starting or destination airport, just a nuisance
> along the way.
Yes, but the question was, why would someone need to transfer between Newark
Airport and Kennedy Airport? I can't imagine why someone who had an
international flight out of Kennedy would fly into to Newark.
Merritt
km_sumter
Michael wrote:
>
> On Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:29:08 -0700, Merritt Mullen
> <mmu...@ispchannel.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Yes, but the question was, why would someone need to transfer between Newark
> >Airport and Kennedy Airport? I can't imagine why someone who had an
> >international flight out of Kennedy would fly into to Newark.
> >
> I can't imagine anyone WANTING to do it, but many tour operators who
> book air for their groups often get the lowest fares with such a
> combination. We're having to endure one of those fiascos on a tour
> this summer - BNA to EWR, JFK to MAD. Should be a nightmare. But we're
> at the mercy of the tour operator.
>
> Michael
Dan Birchall
I sit corrected. I thought the illustration at the URL above depicted
a rubber-tired vehicle, and my brain foolishly put the side wall of the
elevated structure in the middle as a guide rail. Bad brain!
-Dan
--
Dan Birchall - Palolo Valley - Honolulu HI - http://dan.scream.org/
My addresses expire... take out the hex stamp if your reply bounces
Dan Birchall
> This is not directed at this post, particularly, but here's the deal:
> Most of us know the meaning of most of the acronyms and designators
> for various rail services and major Amtrak stations. Many (I'm
> guessing) are not familiar with more than a few airport designation
> codes.
And since this thread is cross-posted (appropriately, of all the
amazing things!) to misc.transport.rail.americas _and_ rec.travel.air,
the inverse is also true - there are a lot of folks in r.t.a. who know
what F9 means (it's not just a key on a PC!) but glaze over when others
speak of NJT, RF&P and such.
As a lifelong railfan working in air travel, I feel so multilingual! ;)
Dan Birchall
JIMBEAR <rib...@home.com> wrote:
> There is also an Intermodal facility being constructed in Warwick, RI
> at TF Green State Airport (PVD) where the NEC passes within 1,200
> feet of the new Main Terminal. Amtrak and the MBTA will provide
> passenger rail service at the facility.
>
> "David Chui" <dc...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > Amtrak will also serve the new Newark Airport station.
I'm curious how many airports in North America do have direct
rail service. Thinking over my own origins/destinations...
PHL (Philadelphia) has SEPTA rail service, no shuttlebus or anything
required. Done that more than a couple times.
ATL (Atlanta) has that nifty little people-mover thingy between
terminals, and a MARTA rail station right at the airport. Done that.
JFK (New York) has a shuttle bus from the terminal to the Howard Beach
subway station (A Train). Done that.
SFO (San Francisco) has a shuttle bus to the nearest CalTrain station.
Done that.
MDW (Chicago-Midway) has El service, I think. Haven't taken that
yet.
LAX (Los Angeles) might have some sort of train service somewhere
near it, but I'm not sure. I take the Big Blue Bus over to Santa
Monica, usually.
EWR (Newark) is getting the monorail extension. Yay. :)
PDX (Portland) is getting rail service; it was under construction
when I flew in and out last fall, and is supposed to open this fall.
Haven't gone outside the terminal at IAH (Houston), STL (St. Louis)
or PHX (Phoenix).
I'm pretty sure BGR (Bangor), TUS (Tucson) and PQI (Presque Isle,
Maine*) don't have any rail service. I'm positive HNL (Honolulu)
doesn't, though it does have inter-terminal tram service on a
reserved right-of-way and direct service from a great bus transit
system. AUS (Austin), OGG (Kahului, Maui), ITO (Hilo) and KOA
(Kona) don't have trains either, that I know of.
-Dan
*Which, according to its website, "boasts the second longest
commercial runway in the State of Maine." Strange, the feature
that stuck in _my_ mind was the terminal, which at first sight I
thought was a small brick storage garage for maintenance
equipment. ;)
Matthew Sheren
used to serve bombers or somesuch, so PQI's 7440' runway has to count for
something :> The commercial part is thrown in because Loring AFB probably
has (had?) something fairly long, but isn't used commercially (or for
anything besides Phish concerts...)
Matthew :)
Dan Birchall wrote:
> I'm pretty sure BGR (Bangor), TUS (Tucson) and PQI (Presque Isle,
> Maine*) don't have any rail service. I'm positive HNL (Honolulu)
> *Which, according to its website, "boasts the second longest
Mike Ward
wrote:
>SFO (San Francisco) has a shuttle bus to the nearest CalTrain station.
>Done that.
San Francisco's BART service will go into SFO in the next couple of
years, it is under construction. CalTrain will connect with BART down
the road in Millbrae.
For my hometown - Sacramento has no rail service to Sacramento
International Airport (it does have Yolobus 42 hourly). The airport
is on Regional Transit's "some time in the future" list for light rail
expansion.
>LAX (Los Angeles) might have some sort of train service somewhere
>near it, but I'm not sure. I take the Big Blue Bus over to Santa
>Monica, usually.
LAX has a shuttle bus from the "Airport" light rail (Blue Line)
station to the airport. I have never taken this, so I have no idea
what's involved...
>PDX (Portland) is getting rail service; it was under construction
>when I flew in and out last fall, and is supposed to open this fall.
Light rail north extension.
>Haven't gone outside the terminal at IAH (Houston), STL (St. Louis)
>or PHX (Phoenix).
St. Louis' light rail system goes into the airport there. Never been
to Houston. Phoenix has no rail service of ANY type...not even
Amtrak.
Cleveland has a long-standing heavy "Rapid Transit" rail system that
goes into their airport...it has been in operation since I believe the
late 1960's.
Mike
Dan Birchall
Merritt Mullen <mmu...@ispchannel.com> wrote:
> but the question was, why would someone need to transfer between Newark
> Airport and Kennedy Airport? I can't imagine why someone who had an
> international flight out of Kennedy would fly into to Newark.
It's rare, but occasionally I see an itinerary that, while cheaper
than some others, requires some really bizarre transfers between
airports "in the same city." Flying into one airport and out of
another in a metro area, like:
JFK, LaGuardia and Newark (New York Area)
Midway and O'Hare (Chicago)
BWI, Dulles and Reagan (D.C.)
Houston and Hobby (Houston)
Dallas-Fort Worth and Love Field (Dallas)
San Francisco, Oakland and San Jose (Bay Area)
Possible scenario: You're flying from somewhere served by AirTran
(formerly ValueJet), to somewhere in Asia. Through a twist of fate
you get wherever to Midway on AirTran, and O'Hare to wherever on
Northwest. And a tour of the Chicago El in between. :)
Like I said, it's _rare_ - thank goodness.
-Dan
HaRRy
wrote in misc.transport.rail.americas:
»LAX has a shuttle bus from the "Airport" light rail (Blue Line)
»station to the airport. I have never taken this, so I have no idea
»what's involved...
That's the LAMTA light rail "Green Line" which terminates about a mile from the
airport (thanks to some outrageous political crap in the 1980's). It's pretty
much straight E-W and doesn't go to downtown, but does intersect the mostly N-S
Blue Line (light rail, downtown L.A. - Long Beach). And in turn the Blue Line
intersects (terminates at) a Red Line heavy rail subway station in downtown
L.A. Using all 3, one can transfer between LAX (airport) and LAX (L.A. Union
Station) -- but it's a torturous and lengthy trip. Most people take city buses
or shuttle vans -- the latter are lots more expensive, but also lots faster.
HaRRy, San Diego
--
http://communities.prodigy.net/trains/
(To e-mail reply change no.spam to prodigy dot net)
Merritt Mullen
> Subject modified; beferences trimmed; groups kept the same.
>
> JIMBEAR <rib...@home.com> wrote:
>> There is also an Intermodal facility being constructed in Warwick, RI
>> at TF Green State Airport (PVD) where the NEC passes within 1,200
>> feet of the new Main Terminal. Amtrak and the MBTA will provide
>> passenger rail service at the facility.
>>
>> "David Chui" <dc...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Amtrak will also serve the new Newark Airport station.
>
> I'm curious how many airports in North America do have direct
> rail service. Thinking over my own origins/destinations...
>
snip
> JFK (New York) has a shuttle bus from the terminal to the Howard Beach
> subway station (A Train). Done that.
And it is getting a light rail system ("AirTrain") to the Jamaica LIRR
station.
> SFO (San Francisco) has a shuttle bus to the nearest CalTrain station.
> Done that.
also to Amtrak. And Oakland airport has a shuttle to the BART heavy rail
system.
snip
>
> LAX (Los Angeles) might have some sort of train service somewhere
> near it, but I'm not sure. I take the Big Blue Bus over to Santa
> Monica, usually.
The Green Line light rail has a station about a mile from the terminals,
with a free shuttle bus. While we are in Los Angeles:
BUR (Burbank) has an Amtrak/Metrolink station within walking distance of the
terminal.
> Haven't gone outside the terminal at IAH (Houston), STL (St. Louis)
> or PHX (Phoenix).
No rail service at IAH or PHX, but STL has a MetroLink light rail station at
the terminal.
I am sure others can think of more.
Merritt
John Pezzano
>
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> The US national air system is overcrowded and unable to handle today's
> loads. More demand is expected and there is no room for that.
>
> The most cost-effective solution would be to provide Amtrak for short
> haul and feeder service. This will be free up scarce landing slots for
> transcontinental planes.
>
> For example, Philadelphia has an electrified railroad line directly into
> its airport, and this line originates at Amtrak's 30th Street Station.
> It would be very easy to route selected Amtrak "flight-feeder" trains
> right into the airport.
>
> Amtrak uses buses on light feeder routes. Airlines should likewise use
> Amtrak. (Some airlines now use Amtrak when their planes can't get out.)
More than that, smaller cities should have direct trains to major
airports. Here in Atlanta, we not only have flights to distant places
but zillions of them to other small cities nearby. Why? All it does is
add to the congestion and your late long distance flight means your
connection to Macon or Savannah or ... is missed. Similarly, when your
hop to Atlanta is delayed because the plane never arrived via Atlanta
from La Guardia, you're toast when trying to catch that flight to Paris.
Shuttle trains on a regular basis TO THE BIG CITY AIRPORT would
eliminate the 30 minute flight that is two hours late due to traffic in
some far away city and the need to arrive an hour early.
Merritt Mullen
> That's the LAMTA light rail "Green Line" which terminates about a mile from
> the airport (thanks to some outrageous political crap in the 1980's). It's
> pretty much straight E-W and doesn't go to downtown, but does intersect the
> mostly N-S Blue Line (light rail, downtown L.A. - Long Beach). And in turn
> the Blue Line intersects (terminates at) a Red Line heavy rail subway station
> in downtown L.A. Using all 3, one can transfer between LAX (airport) and LAX
> (L.A. Union Station) -- but it's a torturous and lengthy trip. Most people
> take city buses or shuttle vans -- the latter are lots more expensive, but
> also lots faster.
A year or two ago, I checked the timing of getting from downtown to LAX via
the Blue/Green lines and actually found it significantly faster than the
scheduled time of the private airport bus. This was strictly a published
schedule exercise, I never actually rode the systems to test it.
I think the bus has a padded schedule to ensure no one misses a flight, and
I suspect in real life it usually beats its scheduled times by quite a bit.
The other factor of course is the nuisance of transferring from vehicle to
vehicle while carrying luggage necessitated by the going the transit route.
Merritt
George Conklin
The problem is the hub and spoke system which airlines
have started to use, replicating the errors of the old fixed
rail systems which did the same thing. Most of those
flights you complain about should not be in Atlanta anyway.
Direct routing is the way to go, not more hub operations.
--
# If HMOs ran the post office, 44.3 million Americans would get no mail. #
# Phono FAQ: http://www.pagesz.net/~henryj/phono.htm. #
# Support Medicare for All Ages. Urban Myth FAQ under development. #
# Support Cygnet Horns for Edison Firesides-george conklin, KB4NCI #
Joseph Bachman
>Yes, there are other airlines, but *real* travelers only use Icelandair
>internationally, just as they only use Southwest stateside and Mexico.
>Compare prices, say BWI/Frankfurt. Altho it is my vague recollection
>that Icelandair still uses reserve seats rather than open seating.
If reserved seating is a desriable feature for you, how can you be such a
fan of Southwest Airlines? The open seating policy is the main reason why
I avoid Southwest if at all possible, otherwise, they provide pretty good
service.
Note that I don' mind open seating on a train, becuase there's a
difference ebtween loading an 80-passenger railcar with a door at each end
and a 150 passenger boing 737 throught a single door. And, in any event,
where I board the train, there usually aren't 80 passengers pushing to
enter a single railcar, anyway.
Charlie
> difference ebtween loading an 80-passenger railcar with a door at each end
> and a 150 passenger boing 737 throught a single door.
Southwest doing trials with a new dual jetway to allow passengers to enter
through one door at each end.
On 4/20/01 11:00 AM, in article 9bpitm$ad0$1...@saltmine.radix.net, "Joseph
Shalom Septimus
wrote:
>And since this thread is cross-posted (appropriately, of all the
>amazing things!) to misc.transport.rail.americas _and_ rec.travel.air,
>the inverse is also true - there are a lot of folks in r.t.a. who know
>what F9 means (it's not just a key on a PC!)
Um, that's a kind of diesel locomotive built by EMD in the early 50's,
isn't it?
<g>
--
Shalom
David Chui
people all rushing to board so they can race through the cars and
find seats together. Groups of 2 or more boarding at smaller
intermediate stops are often out of luck and end up sitting apart.
I wish Amtrak would have some cars that have all-assigned seats,
not just all-reserved. (And I mean regular coach cars, not just the
first class car on the Acela Express.) People on this board seem to
always disagree with that, but everytime I'm on a southbound train at
Back Bay station (1 stop from the origin point) with no seats for people
traveling together, I wonder how many people say "never again" after
having to drag their travel companions and luggage through 8 cars of
a moving train only to be forced to sit apart for the entire ride
because of unassigned seating.
Note that assigned seating still means up-to-the-last-minute tickets,
since Amtrak takes "reservations" like that now... as long as there
are free seats you can buy the ticket whenever you want. I would
just like to see tickets associated with specific seats, not just
a theoretical seat that you have to find yourself somewhere on the
train.
- David
In misc.transport.rail.americas Joseph Bachman <jbac...@radix.net> wrote:
:
: Note that I don' mind open seating on a train, becuase there's a
:
Justa Lurker
(Joseph Bachman) wrote in misc.transport.rail.americas:
| Note that I don' mind open seating on a train, becuase there's
| a difference ebtween loading an 80-passenger railcar with a door
| at each end and a 150 passenger boing 737 throught a single door.
The rural Amtrak stops tend to use one or two doors per train,
not every door on every car. Even the commutter rail cars are
limited to a single entrance at non-urban stops.
| And, in any event, where I board the train, there usually aren't
| 80 passengers pushing to enter a single railcar, anyway.
The best part about rail. Ask an airline to stop a flight between
Toledo and Chicago so a dozen people can get on and off at several
different stops. Perhaps "disembark only" with parachutes? :-)
JL
Steve Murray
Depends on the newsgroup. In misc.transport.rail.americas it is just
what you say. In rec.travel.air it would refer to the carrier code
for Frontier Airlines (I think).
Steve M.
Seattle, USA
;-)
randee
implies you need one that Icelandair serves. The corollary is that you
need to get to that airport. Thus it has to be served by Amtrk or SWA.
This leaves us with BWI. The comparison was of prices between airlines
out of BWI, not out of some airport you can't reach via Amtrk or SWA.
ITRADE wrote:
>
> randee <ran...@zianet.com> wrote in message
> news:3ADF5662...@zianet.com...
> > But neither Amtrk nor SWA go into IAD, so it's useless as a transfer
> > point.
> >
> I'm trying to see what the point is. You were discussing fares out of a
> particular city and making claims that they are quite low. Well, they're
> not necessarily better than another airport.
>
> Rich
John Mara
"David Chui" <dc...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:1XWE6.4$KL6...@typhoon.nyu.edu...
> Note that assigned seating still means up-to-the-last-minute tickets,
> since Amtrak takes "reservations" like that now... as long as there
> are free seats you can buy the ticket whenever you want. I would
> just like to see tickets associated with specific seats, not just
> a theoretical seat that you have to find yourself somewhere on the
> train.
But you would still have to buy a ticket for a specific train and stand on
line to exchange it if your plans changed.
John Mara
David Chui
:
: "David Chui" <dc...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
Yup. IMO, the loss of flexibility is well worth it if I can assure
myself of specific seats on the train. For me personally, it's worth
it even now when I only assure myself of an unassigned (but reserved)
seat. Amtrak should, of course, keep unreserved trains/cars for
people who like the flexibility of unreserved tickets.
- David
Merritt Mullen
> Yup. IMO, the loss of flexibility is well worth it if I can assure
> myself of specific seats on the train. For me personally, it's worth
> it even now when I only assure myself of an unassigned (but reserved)
> seat. Amtrak should, of course, keep unreserved trains/cars for
> people who like the flexibility of unreserved tickets.
It is much more difficult for Amtrak to track assigned seats than it is for
an airline, because while the airlines make no (or very few) intermediate
stops, Amtrak makes many, and seat status would have to be updated between
each station stop. Having some reserved and some unreserved cars would
complicate things further. There would probably have to be an extra fee for
the reserved/assigned seat, and a penalty for a no-show.
Merritt
el...@spam.free.at.last
Of course Europe's been doing it for at least a century but Europe
is smarter than the US. ;)
Steve Murray
I should think Amtrak's reservations system would be more than capable
of advance seat reservations. After all, right now it has to handle
such reservations for a plethora of accommodations. There really
isn't any difference between a specific seat and a specific room.
Amtrak, and the European railways (as another poster has mentioned)
basically use the same reservation systems as the airlines. Of
course, these sorts of information systems are VERY expensive and do
add to the overhead cost of a ticket.
I suspect the real reason why Amtrak (and Southwest Airlines) don't
have advance seat reservations is because it maximizes seat occupancy.
Seat reservations tend to do things like slow boarding and cause a
host of other inefficiencies. Human beings are fantastic
self-sorters!
Steve M.
Seattle, USA
N.B I'm looking for a software vendor who makes a cost-effective and
scaleable passenger reservation system. If anyone knows of such a
beast I'd be pleased to hear from them.
John Pezzano
> >Shuttle trains on a regular basis TO THE BIG CITY AIRPORT would
> >eliminate the 30 minute flight that is two hours late due to traffic in
> >some far away city and the need to arrive an hour early.
>
> The problem is the hub and spoke system which airlines
> have started to use, replicating the errors of the old fixed
> rail systems which did the same thing. Most of those
> flights you complain about should not be in Atlanta anyway.
> Direct routing is the way to go, not more hub operations.
>
I disagree. There are too few people to justify sufficient flights from
small cities to other locations. As much as I hate the hub and spoke
system, how many flights per day would be justified from say,
Chattanooga to Houston or San Francisco or Philadelphia?
But remember what are the deficiencies in hub and spoke:
1) Connections when weather takes its toll
2) The tendency to use crew from one plane on another unrelated trip
which means the flight is delayed because the plane from somewhere else
is needed for your flight.
3) Too many flights entering and leaving at the same time.
Rail to train can dramatically relieve these and other problems
PROVIDED:
1) They go to the big city airport terminal (no extra subway, bus or
taxi).
2) They are reliable and run often enough.
3) They are fast.
4) They are not delayed by faraway problems (through trains from other
big cities).
5) Cost is reasonable and service is provided (through ticketing, though
baggage).
The reverse capability can then become reasonable. Instead of having to
go out of the busy or socked in big city hub, one can take the train to
the reliever aiport for flights. White Knuckle Airlines might make
Chattanooga its hub and fly from there permitting alternate routing and
lower prices.
Justa Lurker
(Steve Murray) wrote in misc.transport.rail.americas:
| I should think Amtrak's reservations system would be more
| than capable of advance seat reservations. After all, right
| now it has to handle such reservations for a plethora of
| accommodations. There really isn't any difference between
| a specific seat and a specific room.
IIRC when you reserve a room you get it for the entire run,
even if you get on late or off early. Seats are reusable,
rooms need maintainance between passengers.
| Amtrak, and the European railways (as another poster has
| mentioned) basically use the same reservation systems as
| the airlines. Of course, these sorts of information systems
| are VERY expensive and do add to the overhead cost of a ticket.
It easier to overbook when you don't have to put people in
particular seats in advance. Airlines can do this and assign
seats at checkin. If a pre-assigned seat user is a noshow
another can get the seat at the last minute.
| Seat reservations tend to do things like slow boarding and
| cause a host of other inefficiencies.
Trains can take off while people are still finding their
seats. Not done on airlines ...
JL
HaRRy
misc.transport.rail.americas:
»Open seating on the NEC is a big disadvantage for Amtrak. Lots of
»people all rushing to board so they can race through the cars and
»find seats together. Groups of 2 or more boarding at smaller
»intermediate stops are often out of luck and end up sitting apart.
The root of this problem is selfish people. How many people do you know that
are willing to switch seats and double up to give a seat to a couple traveling
together? Have you ever seen anyone take a aisle seat with someone they don't
know, when window seats are still available (maybe some letch who spots a
single, attractive woman...). Why not? BTW, I personally prefer aisle seats,
unless I plan to take a nap of course.
Yes Amtrak could solve this social problem (basically, selfishness) by devising
a complex reserved seat system for all trains (though last minute necessary
substitution of unlike cars would be a problem) but let's not lose sight of the
real issue here.
David Chui
:
: IIRC when you reserve a room you get it for the entire run,
: even if you get on late or off early. Seats are reusable,
: rooms need maintainance between passengers.
I'm pretty sure this isn't true. If it is, that would be
an incredible waste of a room on the longer long-distance
trips.
: It easier to overbook when you don't have to put people in
: particular seats in advance. Airlines can do this and assign
: seats at checkin. If a pre-assigned seat user is a noshow
: another can get the seat at the last minute.
Most airlines no longer assign seats only at check-in, you
can pick your seat as soon as you get the ticket (which is
generally on the order of weeks before the flight). Amtrak
currently doesn't overbook the all-reserved coaches on the
NEC, at least not intentionally, even though they don't put
people in particular seats in advance.
: Trains can take off while people are still finding their
: seats. Not done on airlines ...
In addition, if Amtrak made use of the car position signs
that are installed at many NEC stations, people could
wait for their car and board at exactly the right spot, so
there wouldn't be this line of people marching from one
end of the train to the other looking for open seats. THis
is how people board in Japan, for example, where the dwell
time for a 16-car bullet train is on the order of a minute
or two even at major station stops. (Of the 16 cars, some
are reserved and some aren't, and all reserved cars have
all-assigned seating. But then, the exact consist of
the train is fixed and published in the timetables. Amtrak
has more variable consists based on ridership peaks during
the week/year.)
- David
David Chui
:
: Yes Amtrak could solve this social problem (basically, selfishness) by devising
: a complex reserved seat system for all trains (though last minute necessary
: substitution of unlike cars would be a problem) but let's not lose sight of the
: real issue here.
Well, yes. But there's more to it than that. Even if all single
travelers sat next to other single travelers, that only makes sure
there are more pairs of seats available. What about a family of four
getting on at Old Saybrook? How do you try to get four seats next
to each other in the middle of the route? No amount of selflessness
is going to let passengers predict the future and arrange themselves
around the needs of people getting on hours down the line. That's
why we have computers to solve these sorts of issues.
Obviously there are less heavy-handed solutions than all-assigned
seating on reserved trains/cars ... for example, the crew could try
to save groups of seats in certain cars of the train in anticipation
of groups of more than 2 boarding at future stops. I saw this sort
of ad hoc practice on some long distance coaches on Amtrak, but
never on the NEC. Still, in the 21st century, I see no reason why
trains/cars that require reservations anyway shouldn't also assign
seats.
- David
HaRRy
misc.transport.rail.americas:
»In misc.transport.rail.americas Justa Lurker </dev/null@.com> wrote:
»:
»: IIRC when you reserve a room you get it for the entire run,
»: even if you get on late or off early. Seats are reusable,
»: rooms need maintainance between passengers.
»
»I'm pretty sure this isn't true. If it is, that would be
»an incredible waste of a room on the longer long-distance
»trips.
Right, it's not true. I've seen folks get off at some intermediate stop and
other folks get on and both booked in the same sleeping compartment. The
reservations system CAN handle this, and the maintenance only takes a few
minutes unless the detraining passengers were real pigs (and I've rarely seen
any of them).
randee
and SWA is apparently now doing the bulk of their business off the web
(certainly the bulk of their tickets are e-tickets, but I'm pretty sure
their info said they now do the majority of their res. off the web). I
do think tho, that SEA is simply looking at the cost of the reservation
system -- they are known for always doing things the cheapest way
possible, ergo no luggage interchange with other airlines.
As an aside, many years ago I tutored an MBA student in programming.
Their final problem assignment was to write just such a scalable
reservation system. Well actually tutoring was hardly the word, he
really didn't understand much and he was basically paying me to write
the program. Ran to well over a whole box of cards as I recall. Very
little bells and whistles or sophistication was required, just do the
basic job. Hmm, there were what, 2000 cards in a box maybe? I've
forgotten!
Steve Murray wrote:
>
>
> I should think Amtrak's reservations system would be more than capable
> of advance seat reservations. After all, right now it has to handle
> such reservations for a plethora of accommodations. There really
> isn't any difference between a specific seat and a specific room.
> Amtrak, and the European railways (as another poster has mentioned)
> basically use the same reservation systems as the airlines. Of
> course, these sorts of information systems are VERY expensive and do
> add to the overhead cost of a ticket.
>
> I suspect the real reason why Amtrak (and Southwest Airlines) don't
> have advance seat reservations is because it maximizes seat occupancy.
> Seat reservations tend to do things like slow boarding and cause a
> host of other inefficiencies. Human beings are fantastic
> self-sorters!
>
> Steve M.
> Seattle, USA
> N.B I'm looking for a software vendor who makes a cost-effective and
> scaleable passenger reservation system. If anyone knows of such a
> beast I'd be pleased to hear from them.
--
Wes Leatherock
On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:36:51 GMT Steve Murray <mur...@seanet.com> wrote:
[ ... text deleted ... ]
> I suspect the real reason why Amtrak (and Southwest Airlines) don't
> have advance seat reservations is because it maximizes seat occupancy.
> Seat reservations tend to do things like slow boarding and cause a
> host of other inefficiencies. Human beings are fantastic
> self-sorters!
>
> Steve M.
> Seattle, USA
Making seat reservations greatly adds to the holding time of
a call to the reservation center, adding both to an increase in the
number of reservation agents needed as well as in the communications
costs and the costs of the buildings and equipment to accomodate
the additional reservation agents.
Wes Leatherock
wle...@sandbox.dynip.com
el...@spam.free.at.last
You train buffs really might want to take a look at how they do it
in Europe (among other places). I bought a ticket on the German
railroad -- round-trip, each way involving two connections -- and
reserved the seats -- all in under 2 minutes on their website. I
don't think any res agents were involved. (www.deutschebahn.de, IIRC)
randee
HaRRy wrote:
>
>
> know, when window seats are still available (maybe some letch who spots a
> single, attractive woman...). Why not? BTW, I personally prefer aisle seats,
> u
John Mara
"HaRRy" <rail...@no.spam> wrote in message
news:fr8cet8rsum2o833l...@4ax.com...
> The root of this problem is selfish people. How many people do you know
that
> are willing to switch seats and double up to give a seat to a couple
traveling
> together? Have you ever seen anyone take a aisle seat with someone they
don't
> know, when window seats are still available (maybe some letch who spots a
> single, attractive woman...). Why not? BTW, I personally prefer aisle
seats,
> unless I plan to take a nap of course.
For some reason most people are not willing to ask.
Another strange thing is that most people don't seem to realize that seats
across the aisle from each other are almost as good as seats together.
John Mara
charles hobbs
Charlie wrote:
> > Note that I don' mind open seating on a train, becuase there's a
> > difference ebtween loading an 80-passenger railcar with a door at each end
> > and a 150 passenger boing 737 throught a single door.
> Popular Science this month had a blurb in the "What's New" section about
> Southwest doing trials with a new dual jetway to allow passengers to enter
> through one door at each end.
And of course there's good ol' Burbank Airport...they load the front and back of
the
plane (but with the movable stairs, no jetways there)...
David Wire
Then again the last time I few out of Burbank was at least 5 years ago. Someone
tried to convince me that it was a nicer airport than LAX, depsite being 5 miles
from LAX and 30 miles from Burbank.
My conclusion was that parking was almost as expensive, and my home to airport
travel time was 60 min to Burbank, 20 to LAX.
Then again, I think it has been at least 3 years since I set foot in either. Lucky
me!
Dave.