Electric trains
Larry Sheldon
struck with a bootstrap question.
If an electric locomotive is parked, where does the power come from to
raise the pantographs? Or do they leave it up all the time?
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James Robinson
> Reading the several discussions about electric trains, I was suddenly
> struck with a bootstrap question.
>
> If an electric locomotive is parked, where does the power come from to
> raise the pantographs? Or do they leave it up all the time?
Compressed air. If the air is depleted, they are spring loaded, and can be
manually released.
Philip Nasadowski
James Robinson <was...@212.com> wrote:
> Compressed air. If the air is depleted, they are spring loaded, and can be
> manually released.
It depends - I think the AEM-7s can be pumped up manually via an air
pump.
That doesn't close the main breaker, though.
gl4...@yahoo.com
> Reading the several discussions about electric trains, I was suddenly
> struck with a bootstrap question.
>
> If an electric locomotive is parked, where does the power come from to
> raise the pantographs? Or do they leave it up all the time?
The pantograph mechanism is powered by springs, and the wire can very in
height for bridges, tunnels, etc.
For lowering the pan while stopped for maintenance or parking or for being
towed outside of electric territory, there electric (using the locomotive
battery system), air pressure, or hand crank mechanisms. The exact
combination of mechanisms depend on the particular locomotive.
--
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Stephen Sprunk
> Reading the several discussions about electric trains, I was suddenly
> struck with a bootstrap question.
>
> If an electric locomotive is parked, where does the power come from to
> raise the pantographs? Or do they leave it up all the time?
On modern trains, the pantograph is pushed up into the contact wire by a
pneumatic cylinder. To drop the pan, one cuts the air supply and vents
the cylinder. Presumably, there is a small reservoir that can be used
to push the pan back up until the air compressor kicks in. If the
reservoir is empty, e.g. because the train has been in storage and the
air leaked out, some other means of getting the process started (e.g.
hand crank, external air or power, etc.) will need to be used, which
will vary by model.
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Bernhard Agthe
James Robinson wrote:
> Larry Sheldon <lfsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If an electric locomotive is parked, where does the power come from to
>> raise the pantographs? Or do they leave it up all the time?
>
> Compressed air.
Yup.
> If the air is depleted, they are spring loaded, and can be
> manually released.
Ouch, you're likely having a trouble getting that loco certified! With
railroads, if anything goes wrong the system should go in a safe state.
That means if the air is released from the pantograph, it drops down.
They use a magnetic valve which is kept closed by a current - if the
main switch gets released, the pantograph "falls" down (because the
magnetic switch's power gets cut).
If there were a spring to raise the pantograph, you wouldn't be able to
get it down!
The spring is used to keep the pressure against the catenary at a
defined level, within quite close tolerances.
To actually raise the pantograph, a current from an auxiliary battery is
applied to the magnetic valve and then the air from the reservoir is
used. If there's no air, the locomotive's batteries can be used to
generate some air, otherwise the loco needs it's batteries charged
externally (e.g. by a second loco via cable). I guess it's possible to
raise the pantograph within a very short time of power being available,
probably after a minute of being connected to an external charger, but
the loco's batteries aren't supposed to run low, anyway. Really
shouldn't happen.
This is actually quite interesting with a diesel loco, as some use
compressed air to start the engine, but need to pre-heat the oil or
coolant electrically for half an hour before starting... Guess about the
batteries' size ;-) They'll have auxiliary outlets near regular parking
positions. Don't know whether modern diesel locos require this, but I
guess at least to some (smaller) extent...
Ciao...
James Robinson
>
> James Robinson wrote:
>>
>> Larry Sheldon <lfsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> If an electric locomotive is parked, where does the power come from
>>> to raise the pantographs? Or do they leave it up all the time?
>>
>> Compressed air.
>
> Yup.
>
>> If the air is depleted, they are spring loaded, and can be
>> manually released.
>
> Ouch, you're likely having a trouble getting that loco certified!
Yes, I admit I was thinking about older equipment, where that was the
case.
> If there were a spring to raise the pantograph, you wouldn't be able
> to get it down!
A wooden pole was provided to accomplish that task.
> This is actually quite interesting with a diesel loco, as some use
> compressed air to start the engine, but need to pre-heat the oil or
> coolant electrically for half an hour before starting... Guess about
> the batteries' size ;-) They'll have auxiliary outlets near regular
> parking positions. Don't know whether modern diesel locos require
> this, but I guess at least to some (smaller) extent...
Only locomotives that have been shut down for a very long time, where the
engine block temperature has dropped to the freezing point or less
require this treatment.
Most North American locomotives are not equipped with immersion heaters,
but instead have to be brought into a shop where warm water can be
circulated through the cooling system to bring up the temperature.
In an attempt to save fuel, locomotives are no longer left running all
the time to keep the temperature up, unlike in the past. There are
various strategies to accomplish this, including:
- systems that automatically restart the engine whenever the cooling
water temperature drops below a certain point, and run the engine long
enough to bring the temperature back up, then shut the engine down again.
- small diesel generating sets mounted on the locomotive that heat the
cooling water with an electric immersion heater, and run a circulating
pump to distribute the heat throughout the locomotive.
- immersion heaters in the cooling system that get their power from
wayside plugs, along with an electric circulating pump.
Piotr Waszkielewicz
> This is actually quite interesting with a diesel loco, as some use
> compressed air to start the engine, but need to pre-heat the oil or
> coolant electrically for half an hour before starting... Guess about the
> batteries' size ;-) They'll have auxiliary outlets near regular parking
> positions.
Actually diesel locos (at least these ones that I know - SM42 shunters
working in Poland) pre-heat the coolant (and oil from the coolant) with
fuel-powered heater, which is only controlled by electricity from
batteries. There is also oil pump to lubricate whole engine before
ignition to make its life longer (BTW succesfully, they have been
designed in 1965 and most of them are still in operation ;) ).
The coolant is water. If it's freezing, the heater must work. If it's
below -25�C (-13�F), the engine must work.
Sorry for possible mistakes, I'm writing from Poland ;)
--
Piotr Waszkielewicz - piotrwasz[at]o2[dot]pl
http://psoras.republika.pl
Read my name "Pyotr Vashkyelevich" ;)
bob
wrote:
> Larry Sheldon schrieb:
>
> > Reading the several discussions about electric trains, I was suddenly
> > struck with a bootstrap question.
>
> > If an electric locomotive is parked, where does the power come from to
> > raise the pantographs? Or do they leave it up all the time?
>
>
> But in winter below freezing, locos are indeed parked with the panto up.
Most of the locos and MUs I see round here[1] are stored with their
pans down year round. Winter night time temperatures are often in the
-10°C range. From my experience, different railway companies seem to
have different views on taking the pan down, ranging from the UK
(never) to Belgium (just about any time the train is not in passenger
service, including reversing in stations).
[1] SBB, Zürich area
Robin
David Lesher
On 13 Dec, 16:14, Hans-Joachim Zierke <Usenetspam...@Zierke.com>
What happens if it freezes to the cat?
I can see an advantage to keeping one down. That way you could
bang it up into the cat to hopefully shake some of ice loose.
When WMATA has icing conditions, they'll run a train all night to
keep the 750V 3rd rail usable.
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Philip Nasadowski
David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote:
> What happens if it freezes to the cat?
Release the brakes, move? You might break the shoe doing that, though.
> I can see an advantage to keeping one down. That way you could
> bang it up into the cat to hopefully shake some of ice loose.
Most MUs, unless they're multisystem, have only one. Ditto for a lot of
locomotives, though single system ones tend to have two.
> When WMATA has icing conditions, they'll run a train all night to
> keep the 750V 3rd rail usable.
I once saw an LIRR train leave a station on an icy day. From 200 feet
away, the arcing interfered with my radio. On FM. It was _that_ bad.
David Lesher
>David Lesher schrieb:
>>> But in winter below freezing, locos are indeed parked with the panto up.
>>
>> What happens if it freezes to the cat?
>Either the timer or the remote control will preheat the loco or MU, and
>after that, it's no longer frozen.
Unless your timer moves the locomotive a few feet; how does that
help? Does the panagraph have heaters within it? Or does "standby"
power to it draw so much current as to heat it via IR^2?
>Ice on the catenary gives quite a sight:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD0mDoftCXU
Indeed
David Lesher
>David Lesher schrieb:
>> Unless your timer moves the locomotive a few feet; how does that
>> help? Does the panagraph have heaters within it? Or does "standby"
>> power to it draw so much current as to heat it via IR^2?
>Standby power probably not, but some minutes before arrival of the
>engineer, the loco will preheat itself, and that'll do.
It will unfreeze the panagraph from the cat? That says to me the
I^2R loss must be quite sizable.
>For complete trains, preheating will start at least an hour before.
I don't care about the cabins, etc... only if you'll rip the overhead down.
Philip Nasadowski
David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote:
> Hans-Joachim Zierke <Usenet...@Zierke.com> writes:
> >Standby power probably not, but some minutes before arrival of the
> >engineer, the loco will preheat itself, and that'll do.
I'm actually somewhat surprised a modern electric even needs a preheat,
beyond maybe 5 or 10 minutes to just get things beyond ice cube stage...
> It will unfreeze the panagraph from the cat? That says to me the
> I^2R loss must be quite sizable.
Or there's heaters on the pan :)
Actually, on 1.5kv and 3kv systems, the current draw while standing CAN
be sizeable - IIRC, some newer trains have dual contact pans, where a
copper bar is used at standstill and low speeds, a carbon strip at
higher speeds, because of localized wire heating issues. The French
also run with both pans up at low speeds on some equipment, then
dropping the (normal) 25kv AC pan above X speed.
Miles Bader
>> I'm actually somewhat surprised a modern electric even needs a preheat,
>> beyond maybe 5 or 10 minutes to just get things beyond ice cube stage...
>
> preheating will start much earlier.
I actually find it kind of annoying -- I'm all bundled up for winter,
waiting on the platform, get on the train, and... immediately start
sweating. :(
[In summer, some trains I use have "weak aircon" cars, which allow you
to avoid the opposite problem, but I've not seen any any "weakly heated"
cars...]
-Miles
--
My spirit felt washed. With blood. [Eli Shin, on "The Passion of the Christ"]
Bernhard Agthe
Miles Bader wrote:
> I actually find it kind of annoying -- I'm all bundled up for winter,
> waiting on the platform, get on the train, and... immediately start
> sweating. :(
Happy guy! When I take the bus, they have "cheap" vehicles on my line,
which use a recycling A/C unit - and they don't clean it (you can see
dust hanging out of the opening). Which translates to a lot of stink and
stale air in the vehicles. Combined with the localized heating provided
by the engine (which sits inside a compartment inside the passenger
space) you get a really hot stinking bus if you sit at the rear and a
cold stinking bus at the front - which again prompts the driver to turn
up the heat some more... UGH!
In that case I'd rather have outside ventilation instead of A/C (which
ain't necessary here anyway).
The opposite is true for the suburban trains - they switched from older
EMUs with separate wagons and basic ventilation/heating to modern ones
with walk-through wagons and AC - and they are more comfy. It used to be
a bad joke that people regularly passed out when the train stopped in
summertime at a signal along the track (with doors closed, as this is
not a station) in the old cars. No more ;-)
But I seem to remember that we wanted to take the night train from Italy
back home. The wagons were moved into the station 1.5 hours before
departure but the train personnel didn't allow anyone in. They said the
train had been standing in the sun all day and they would receive the
engine within minutes to provide power for A/C. They would let people in
only after the A/C was running for 45 min - which was fine given the
warm evening... When the loco arrived, one of the train personnel went
to the engineer and told him to make sure the panto' stayed up ;-)
In the winter, I guess the opposite is true, though I remember stories
of my parents travels to Russia (former Soviet Union) in the 1960's and
1970's... "Bring your own coal for heating."
Ciao...
Miles Bader
> In the winter, I guess the opposite is true, though I remember stories
> of my parents travels to Russia (former Soviet Union) in the 1960's and
> 1970's... "Bring your own coal for heating."
Hmm, I rode in a very crowded long-distance train in Europe in 1989, and
there were 3 french guys in our compartment who were using a portable
gas-burning stove to cook their meal ... and all chain-smoking, ...
When the fumes got too much, they'd open the window. [but never stopped]
Amusing to recall, but ... ugh, that was not a pleasant trip. :(
-Miles
--
Back, n. That part of your friend which it is your privilege to contemplate in
your adversity.
Philip Nasadowski
Bernhard Agthe <dark...@gmx.net> wrote:
> Happy guy! When I take the bus, they have "cheap" vehicles on my line,
> which use a recycling A/C unit - and they don't clean it (you can see
> dust hanging out of the opening).
I would imagine all a/c units recycle the air. That's how it's done in
buildings / homes in the US, unless they have heat exchangers between
the air going in and out. I don't see why transit buses would be any
different.
> In that case I'd rather have outside ventilation instead of A/C (which
> ain't necessary here anyway).
A/C is practically a must in most of the US. You certainly can sell a
house without central (many do), but central's a HUGE draw, even in the
Northeast. When my parents moved into their place, it was one of the
first upgrades done - their house wasn't deluxe enough to have it when
built. We got hot water heat instead - not a bad tradeoff (I fucking
hate forced air heat - dry, loud, drafty).
Though last summer, the central stayed off most of the year - it just
never got hot enough. A side bonus to the new skylights in the family
room: Pop 'em open at night and a hell of a good breeze came in through
the side windows.
Today, homes even up as far as NY are built with 'air' standard, and
it's basically a standard feature in cars, period. In the 1950's, many
homes had a giant (GIANT!) fan in the hallway to suck air into the attic
- a professor I know has a 42 someodd inch one. Moves a few thousand
CFM. Nobody does that anymore :(
> The opposite is true for the suburban trains - they switched from older
> EMUs with separate wagons and basic ventilation/heating to modern ones
> with walk-through wagons and AC - and they are more comfy. It used to be
> a bad joke that people regularly passed out when the train stopped in
> summertime at a signal along the track (with doors closed, as this is
> not a station) in the old cars. No more ;-)
The LIRR got cars with a/c in the 50's, NY Central at the same time,
though a lot of older junk was still running. The last non a/c cars I
can think of in the NYC area, outside of the subway, were the 3kv
Lacawanna cars, which NJT replaced with Arrows in the mid 80's*.
> But I seem to remember that we wanted to take the night train from Italy
> back home. The wagons were moved into the station 1.5 hours before
> departure but the train personnel didn't allow anyone in. They said the
> train had been standing in the sun all day and they would receive the
> engine within minutes to provide power for A/C. They would let people in
> only after the A/C was running for 45 min - which was fine given the
> warm evening... When the loco arrived, one of the train personnel went
> to the engineer and told him to make sure the panto' stayed up ;-)
>
> In the winter, I guess the opposite is true, though I remember stories
> of my parents travels to Russia (former Soviet Union) in the 1960's and
> 1970's... "Bring your own coal for heating."
>
> Ciao...
*And the Hoboken division got AC in more ways than one! They went from
3kv DC to 27.6kv AC at the time, too...
Bernhard Agthe
Philip Nasadowski wrote:
> I would imagine all a/c units recycle the air. That's how it's done in
> buildings / homes in the US, unless they have heat exchangers between
> the air going in and out. I don't see why transit buses would be any
> different.
Well, in this case, I live in a rather moderate climate, winters don't
get too cool, summers not too hot. Buses used to have heaters installed
below some seats and pure ventilation otherwise. This has been working
from the invention of horse-drawn coach travel until now. The vehicles
I'm so dissatisfied with are about 3 to 5 years old and are rather cheap
and badly maintained. The garbage collection car is cleaner (it gets
washed down each evening) - the buses have not been thoroughly cleaned
in over six weeks!
Now imagine a *DIRTY* A/C unit and try to imagine the stink of air that
is being circulated for days on end...
So basically the A/C wouldn't be the problem, but if they cannot clean
it regularly, they would do better with basic ventilation (at least you
get fresh air). Anyway, why add an expensive A/C unit (in terms of cost,
maintenance and energy consumption) if it ain't necessary in the first
place?
> A/C is practically a must in most of the US. You certainly can sell a
The government (who order the bus service) require A/C on newer
contracts, but as far as I see the people who do the ordering never use
the bus. In my eyes, cleanliness is more important than adding (useless)
features like (unusable because the writing is too small) next station
displays, dirty A/C or "kneeling bus" features where the badly
maintained bus actually results in far less comfort due to the air
suspension lacking air pressure (and the whole passenger compartment
bumping around more than there are bumps in the street).
So, it's rather a question of less but reliable features versus more
broken ones...
> house without central (many do), but central's a HUGE draw, even in the
> Northeast. When my parents moved into their place, it was one of the
...
> Though last summer, the central stayed off most of the year - it just
> never got hot enough. A side bonus to the new skylights in the family
> room: Pop 'em open at night and a hell of a good breeze came in through
> the side windows.
Well, I guess there are methods to keep a house's climate under control
that require "smart" engineering rather than "lots of power" - which I
consider preferable. Sure, it's not always possible to retrofit to
existing houses, but it saves money, energy and repair costs in the end...
> The LIRR got cars with a/c in the 50's, NY Central at the same time,
> though a lot of older junk was still running. The last non a/c cars I
> can think of in the NYC area, outside of the subway, were the 3kv
> Lacawanna cars, which NJT replaced with Arrows in the mid 80's*.
Well, the old suburban EMUs here were built in the early 1970's -
without A/C. So you can guess that air conditioning never was a real
issue here - the issue rather was that passengers closed all the
windows, thus preventing good ventilation ;-) Even in the summertime.
Still I do think that it's not necessary in many cases, but I'm sure A/C
is really a good idea in warmer regions ;-)
Again, my problem is that most people seem to think that "adding
features" is the way to go, even if it often were better to have less
features... Compare rear-view cameras on cars - they are a good idea on
large trucks, but "normal" cars should rather have a good all-around
view than stupid toys... Or just compare the actual hazzle in the
channel-tunnel: Trains have been run for more than a hundred years and
they just simply forgot about snow?! But I'm sure the trains have nifty
displays next to each seat indicating reservations or "on-train-radio" -
all things that are vanity compared to weather-proofing the trains...
Ciao...
PS: Merry Christmas ;-)
Philip Nasadowski
Bernhard Agthe <dark...@gmx.net> wrote:
> Well, in this case, I live in a rather moderate climate, winters don't
> get too cool, summers not too hot.
Well, I'm in the NY metro area. We go from around -15c to 35c. For the
NYC subway, remember there are both above ground and tunnel operations -
a larger swing.
> The garbage collection car is cleaner (it gets
> washed down each evening) - the buses have not been thoroughly cleaned
> in over six weeks!
Some things never change...
> Well, I guess there are methods to keep a house's climate under control
> that require "smart" engineering rather than "lots of power" - which I
> consider preferable. Sure, it's not always possible to retrofit to
> existing houses, but it saves money, energy and repair costs in the end...
They get lucky with a high ceiling in the family room. In the 1950's, a
large - 36 or 42 inch fan in the hallways would be used to suck air up
into the attic, with the replacement air coming in through the windows.
When A/C got popular in the US in the later part of the 50's, there was
a short time when the big trend was to put tiny windows on houses to
'maximize' the wall space, since A/C made windows 'obsolete'. It was
surprisingly popular for a while, then folks actually moved into said
houses and realized that a bedroom with tiny windows is like a jail
cell..
> Well, the old suburban EMUs here were built in the early 1970's -
> without A/C. So you can guess that air conditioning never was a real
> issue here - the issue rather was that passengers closed all the
> windows, thus preventing good ventilation ;-) Even in the summertime.
By that time, even the NYC subway was buying A/C in the US.
> Still I do think that it's not necessary in many cases, but I'm sure A/C
> is really a good idea in warmer regions ;-)
Might be cultural - Carrier is actually based out of Syracuse, NY. I
remember both motels along the Pacific Coast Highway I've been in didn't
have A/C (WTF?), but even in Maine, it's seen (but seldom used). Back
in the 20's and 30's, movie theaters and stores rushed to install 'air',
and places that had it promoted the fact - come in from the heat and
spend your money here :)
> PS: Merry Christmas ;-)
:)
Hmm, that whole Krampus thing over there is interesting - looks like
something that'd be popular with the metalheads in this area...
gl4...@yahoo.com
Nasadowski <nasa...@usermale.com> wrote:
> Hmm, that whole Krampus thing over there is interesting - looks like
> something that'd be popular with the metalheads in this area...
I would think that this whole hiking while naked thing, which has
apparently upset considerable portions of Switzerland, would be a much
more interesting German tradition to import.
Robert Bonomi
Bernhard Agthe <dark...@gmx.net> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>James Robinson wrote:
>> Larry Sheldon <lfsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> If an electric locomotive is parked, where does the power come from to
>>> raise the pantographs? Or do they leave it up all the time?
>>
>> Compressed air.
>
>Yup.
>
>> If the air is depleted, they are spring loaded, and can be
>> manually released.
>
>Ouch, you're likely having a trouble getting that loco certified!
Maybe in todays world. NOT historically. <grin>
> With
>railroads, if anything goes wrong the system should go in a safe state.
>That means if the air is released from the pantograph, it drops down.
>They use a magnetic valve which is kept closed by a current - if the
>main switch gets released, the pantograph "falls" down (because the
>magnetic switch's power gets cut).
>
>If there were a spring to raise the pantograph, you wouldn't be able to
>get it down!
The old 'el' cars in Chicago _DID_ use spring-raised pantographs. Getting
them down was _really_ simple. there was a rope the conductor pulled on,
and down they came.
All the old electric 'trackless trolley' equipment I know of used _exactly_
the same type of mechanism.
gl4...@yahoo.com
Hans-Joachim Zierke <Usenet...@Zierke.com> wrote:
> gl4...@yahoo.com schrieb:
>
>
> > I would think that this whole hiking while naked thing, which has
> > apparently upset considerable portions of Switzerland, would be a much
> > more interesting German tradition to import.
>
>
> Hiking while naked? German tradition?
>
> Never seen that in the last 50 years.
Neither has the canton of Appenzell Innerrhoden, but that doesn't mean
they haven't decided that doing so is a growing trend in Germany, and is
therefore a threat to national security, and that it needs to be banned.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8019766.stm
video guy - www.locoworks.com
>
> The old 'el' cars in Chicago _DID_ use spring-raised pantographs. �Getting
> them down was _really_ simple. �there was a rope the conductor pulled on,
> and down they came.
>
The L cars I rode on for twenty years used third rail shoes. It was
the North Shore electroliners which operated off wire, but they used
poles with contact sliders, not pantographs. Perhaps the South Shore
used pantographs.
Adam H. Kerman
>bon...@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
Portions of the "L" system CNS&M ran over were under wire, while other
portions used third rail. Both railroads used trolley poles.
A few years after the demise of CNS&M, CTA revived Skokie service after an
absense of 16 years. They desired to operate without conductors, so CTA
devised a "half pan" system, raised remotely from the motorman's cab. Later
series of "L" cars used pantographs. This route was built in the mid '20's
using trolley wire suspended from catenary bridges, later upgraded to
catenary wire. Four years ago, aluminum third rail replaced catenary, but
the bridges remain.
Work equipment continued to be equipped with trolley poles as numerous
sidings, especially former team tracks, were still powered with trolley wire.
I don't think any remain.
Outlying portions of the "L" remained under wire till late. Around the time
of the demise of the final freight customer, the Red line freight track and
Purple line (Evanston) were equipped with third rail, 1973.
It's impossible for you to have ridden the "L" during the last 20 years
when CTA didn't operate under wire. You should have ridden Skokie or noticed
sidings in a few places that still had trolley wire.
Joseph D. Korman
http://www.thejoekorner.com/photos/chicago/1630094.gif
The Skokie used pans for about half of the line. The change over was at
Crawford:
pan down: http://www.thejoekorner.com/photos/chicago/1630091.gif
pan up: http://www.thejoekorner.com/photos/chicago/1630092.gif
The South Shore used full pantographs:
http://www.thejoekorner.com/photos/chi-ss-sb/3370004.jpg
--
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video guy - www.locoworks.com
> It's impossible for you to have ridden the "L" during the last 20 years
> when CTA didn't operate under wire. You should have ridden Skokie or noticed
> sidings in a few places that still had trolley wire.
I didn't say the LAST
video guy - www.locoworks.com
>
> It's impossible for you to have ridden the "L" during the last 20 years
> when CTA didn't operate under wire. You should have ridden Skokie or noticed
> sidings in a few places that still had trolley wire.
I did not say LAST 20 years. I haven't been back to Chicago for 30
years. When I lived there Skokie was still Indian territory.
Adam H. Kerman
So what? It's impossible to have ridden the "L" during ANY 20 year period
in which no trolley wire existed. Sheesh.
Please don't quote without attribution.
jim
Please help my memory here. It has been some fifty years now but as I
recall the trains from Milwaukee to Chicago ran under wire. When they
entered Chicago, as I recall they changed to third rail for power.
Were the old North Shore duel powered? They mush have been.
What was it like back in 1959 or so?
-Jim
Adam H. Kerman
>Please help my memory here. It has been some fifty years now but as I
>recall the trains from Milwaukee to Chicago ran under wire. When they
>entered Chicago, as I recall they changed to third rail for power.
As Joseph Korman mentioned, the changeover to third rail was at Crawford
Avenue in Skokie. It's a bit more complicated, because the express track
from Howard to Wilson was the freight track. To accomodate freight movements,
portions were under wire, so the CNS&M was have to put the pole back up
again south of Howard.
>Were the old North Shore duel powered? They mush have been.
They always had trolley shoes and trolley poles to pick up the current.
Clark F Morris
<Usenet...@Zierke.com> wrote:
>
>gl4...@yahoo.com schrieb:
>
>
>> Neither has the canton of Appenzell Innerrhoden, but that doesn't mean
>> they haven't decided that doing so is a growing trend in Germany, and is
>> therefore a threat to national security, and that it needs to be banned.
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8019766.stm
>
>
><shakes head in disbelief>
>He who doesn't have a problem, creates some.
>
>
>Nudist beaches are quite common especially in eastern Germany, you could
>easily call it a GDR tradition, but nudist hiking strikes me as being
>quite silly. I would expect, that danger of sunburn and rucsac straps
>don't mix well,
>
>Emmh, how to get this on topic ... ... ? ... ... Appenzeller Bahnen
>might help:
>http://img8.abload.de/img/imsga404h0uj.jpg
>
Looking at the line crossing a driveway, are trains require to blow
their horns for the driveway? What would the maximum permissible
train speed be for such a crossing?
>
>
>Hans-Joachim
Larry Sheldon
I was at Great Lakes from late '56 or early '57 for about a year--CNW
was diesels as I recall, Northshore was trolley-pole and wire at North
Chicago--dunno about anywhere else, I was no into such minutia yet.
--
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video guy - www.locoworks.com
> On 12/24/2009 11:14 AM, jim wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
In 1961 I recall standing on an L platform-possibly Paulina, changing
for the Ravenswood line, watching the Electroliners pass on the
express tracks, running on third rail shoes.
Adam H. Kerman
>In 1961 I recall standing on an L platform-possibly Paulina, changing
>for the Ravenswood line, watching the Electroliners pass on the
>express tracks, running on third rail shoes.
Wrong branch of the "L".
The express tracks in question were on the Howard "L", and on the portion of
what's today's Ravenswood/Evanston route between Fullerton and Chicago Ave.
Valentin Brückel
> Clark F Morris schrieb:
>
>> Looking at the line crossing a driveway, are trains require to blow
>> their horns for the driveway?
>
> Don't know, but would expect the same procedure as with the SBB: The
> horn is blown for a so-called "Pfeiftafel", whistle board.
> http://www.lokifahrer.ch/images/Sig-CH/Pfeiftafel.gif
Signaling in Switzerland is pretty much standardized. There is a unified
rulebook which can be found somewhere in the depths of admin.ch... there:
<http://www.bav.admin.ch/dokumentation/grundlagen/00868/01947/index.html>
*If* there is a Pfeifftafel, it will look exactly like the one you liked to.
However, this does not answer whether there is one for the driveway. I
suspect not, but that's just a gut feeling.
Val
video guy - www.locoworks.com
I think you are confused. At the Paulina platform the express tracks
were together at the center and the local tracks went around the
outside. The platforms were between the express tracks and the local
tracks. Local trains emerging from the subway moved to the outside
tracks as they travelled north.
Adam H. Kerman
>On Dec 24, 7:38 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>video guy <videoc...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>In 1961 I recall standing on an L platform-possibly Paulina, changing
>>>for the Ravenswood line, watching the Electroliners pass on the
>>>express tracks, running on third rail shoes.
>>Wrong branch of the "L".
>>The express tracks in question were on the Howard "L", and on the portion of
>>what's today's Ravenswood/Evanston route between Fullerton and Chicago Ave.
>I think you are confused.
Who cares what you think? I actually live here and ride regularly.
>At the Paulina platform the express tracks were together at the center
>and the local tracks went around the outside. The platforms were between
>the express tracks and the local tracks. Local trains emerging from
>the subway moved to the outside tracks as they travelled north.
Nearly everything you wrote in those three sentences is wrong.
1) For the second time, Paulina is on the wrong branch of the "L". It's
a station on the Ravenswood branch above Clark Junction. At Clark Junction,
Ravenswood leaves Howard "L" (Red Line) to head west. CNS&M never ran
on Ravenswood above Clark Junction.
2) There are a number of stations with double island platforms. Fullerton
is 1/2 mile north of Armitage interlocking at the subway portal. From
south to north, stations with double-island platforms that existed in 1961
were Sedgwick, Fullerton, Belmont, Sheridan, and Howard. Wilson had one
25 foot wide main platform and two side platforms.
3) In 1961, no subway trains used the outside tracks above the subway
portal. The several variations in service were all eliminated in 1949.
Above Wilson, the express tracks are on the outside. This portion of the "L"
was built on a steam road embankment. Below Wilson, on the older part of the
"L" on structure, as originally built, the express tracks were in the
center and local tracks on the outside, an acceptable arrangement as local
trains one terminated at grade-level platforms at Wilson, below the current
station, so locals turning back didn't interfere with express trains.
All this changed. Between Wilson and Clark Junction, the outer tracks are
now the express tracks. Clark Junction to the subway portal at Armitage,
inner tracks are express and out tracks are local; Evanston Express uses
the outer tracks and runs locally. Armitage to Chicago Avenue, there were
once four tracks but there are only two tracks today. Chicago Avenue to
Tower 18 (Lake/Wells interlocking, northwest corner of the Loop) was always
two tracks.
gl4...@yahoo.com
Hans-Joachim Zierke <Usenet...@Zierke.com> wrote:
> Emmh, how to get this on topic ... ... ? ... ... Appenzeller Bahnen
> might help:
> http://img8.abload.de/img/imsga404h0uj.jpg
See, now that is what an electric railway should look like. There is less
tangle there than what we see alongside our roads with the standard
household power distribution (plus appendages like telephone and cable
TV).
video guy - www.locoworks.com
Is it gas that is your problem? Can you have a simple discussion
without staging a pageant?
Adam H. Kerman
I see I've let myself get trolled again by this asshole.
Now, do you still believe Paulina is a double-island station that the
CNS&M ran by?
video guy - www.locoworks.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I never did believe that. If you look at the post you will see that I
said "possibly Paulina". After thirty-odd years away I am certainly
not sure about anything there. You misread my post and promptly set
off on a bandwaster of biblilcal proportions, trying to prove to
everyone what an authority on Chicago mass transit you are.
Look, spring is coming soon. The weather will turn to those wonderful
two weeks in Chicago when it is neither too hot nor too cold and
Mother Nature is not trying to kill you. Get out of that miserable
fourth floor one-room furnished walkup and go down to the lakefront--
where those little chess tables are set up for the seniors and the
indigent. If chess is too complicated for you, just play checkers.
Someone can show you the rules in no time. You'll enjoy the few hours
in the open air and your ardor for writing long posts that no one
cares about or reads will be curbed.
In other words, lighten up, man.
Philip Nasadowski
Hans-Joachim Zierke <Usenet...@Zierke.com> wrote:
> For 750V, that might be okay. For 25 kV, it does not sound like a
> serious suggestion.
>
> Railroad voltage makes small, black, und ugly!
In the US, it is still standard to provide a fiberglass pole on any MU
or locomotive with a pan, regardless of voltage. I don't know why, I
wouldn't want anyone who shouldn't, playing with such a device. Train
crews included.
Then again, i've been told by folks at NJT that Amtrak's standard method
for testing catenary breakers is to toss a grounded chain up into the
wires...
Adam H. Kerman
I corrected you. You were sure enough to disbelieve me.
>You misread my post and promptly set off on a bandwaster of biblilcal
>proportions, trying to prove to everyone what an authority on Chicago
>mass transit you are.
Way to disprove my statement that you're an asshole.
Are you done trolling for today? I'm spitting out the hook now.
mrob...@worldnet.att.net
> In article <slrnhj8nh3.3jf...@Odysseus.Zierke.com>,
> Hans-Joachim Zierke <Usenet...@Zierke.com> wrote:
>
>> For 750V, that might be okay. For 25 kV, it does not sound like a
>> serious suggestion.
>>
>> Railroad voltage makes small, black, und ugly!
>
> In the US, it is still standard to provide a fiberglass pole on any
> MU or locomotive with a pan, regardless of voltage. I don't know why,
> I wouldn't want anyone who shouldn't, playing with such a device.
> Train crews included.
I wonder if it's more for life safety than it is for trying to make the
train work. Some industrial safety training tells you that if you
suspect someone is in contact with electricity, a) don't touch him
yourself and b) if you have a long enough insulated stick, you can
*attempt* to get the wire off of him or him off of the wire.
For 12 or 25 kV, it might be the case that nobody could react fast
enough. But if somebody gets themselves across one of the lower
voltages that is present inside the locomotive, the fiberglass pole
might come in handy.
On the other hand, you could probably make the same argument for a
subway car powered with third rail at < 1000 V, but I don't know if
those cars carry insulating sticks as well.
Matt Roberds
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> On the other hand, you could probably make the same argument for a
> subway car powered with third rail at < 1000 V, but I don't know if
> those cars carry insulating sticks as well.
Some 3rd rail trains carried paddles to be shoved between the 3rd rail
and the train shoe in case of emergency. Don't know if that's still
the case.
Philip Nasadowski
mrob...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> For 12 or 25 kV, it might be the case that nobody could react fast
> enough. But if somebody gets themselves across one of the lower
> voltages that is present inside the locomotive, the fiberglass pole
> might come in handy.
For 25kv, if they're not blasted away by the voltage, by the time anyone
does anything, the person's long dead.
At 1000-2000 volts? Well, electric chairs are in that area, and they
typically take only a few seconds to do the job.
Better idea: Teach those who aren't trained in handling that stuff to
stay the fuck out of the electric cabinets. I doubt there's anything a
crew can/should do out on the road that a) requires dicking around in a
high power cabinet and b) requires dicking around in a high power
cabinet with the pan *up*.
> On the other hand, you could probably make the same argument for a
> subway car powered with third rail at < 1000 V, but I don't know if
> those cars carry insulating sticks as well.
NYC subway cars still have short paddles to isolate the car from the
third rail, though I doubt they're ever used much. I'm guessing that
the big use is pull the main switch, then isolate the shoe and change
the shoe fuse. AFAIK, all NYC subway cars have a main knife switch, and
so do the LIRR cars.
Philip Nasadowski
<9115878c-c44b-471d...@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> Some 3rd rail trains carried paddles to be shoved between the 3rd rail
> and the train shoe in case of emergency. Don't know if that's still
> the case.
Yes.
I'm not sure exactly what they're used for - I suspect that it's to
isolate a shoe to change the shoe beam fuse.
IIRC, there are jumper cables at a few places in the NYC subway, for
jump starting gapped trains. The LIRR used to do this practice years
ago, too. Then OSHA was created...
(It was a very dangerous practice)
David Lesher
>IIRC, there are jumper cables at a few places in the NYC subway, for
>jump starting gapped trains. The LIRR used to do this practice years
>ago, too. Then OSHA was created...
>(It was a very dangerous practice)
I have seen "stinger" instructions etc. I assume ittakes two people;
but somehow the instructions never really said that.....
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Philip Nasadowski
Hans-Joachim Zierke <Usenet...@Zierke.com> wrote:
> Over here, the procedure is
>
> - Call for switch-off, wait for confirmation.
> - Use the test tip of the grounding pole (that's necessary even with
> switched-off catenary, because parallel wires can still induce an
> impressive voltage and current).
> - Put on the grounding pole.
From what folks at NJ Transit have told me (from memory - thankfully I
don't have to do this stuff!):
1) Call for power off, wait for confirmation
2) Using a voltage testing pole, test a known live catenary wire
(should be on)
3) Test the wire that's to be grounded (should be off)
4) Test the known live wire gain (should be on)
5) Apply grounding stick.
2/3/4 is to ensure that not only is the wire you're turning off actually
off, but that the testing device being used to test the wire is actually
working.
Somewhere between 1 and 2 might be to lock out the breaker at the
substation. Apparently, Amtrak's procedure is more like "Ask for the
voltage to turned off and pray". They also once torched Portal Bridge
because they couldn't be bothered to test a circuit breaker after
changing it - something grounded the catenary and it didn't trip for a
while...
I know NJT's removed most of their reclosers, too. I don't know if
anyone else uses them in the US.
> Without that procedure, even the electricity workers of the railroad are
> not allowed closer than 1.5m.
From what I've heard, 10 feet is the standard in the US at those
voltages.
The LIRR also has some sort of clip on boxes that howl if there's third
rail voltage. I don't think you can practically ground out the third
rail (fault currents can exceed 100,000 amps), thus they use that,
instead.
Stephen Furley
On 27/12/09 11:02, in article
nasadowsk-03CE3...@news.optonline.net, "Philip Nasadowski"
<nasa...@usermale.com> wrote:
> From what I've heard, 10 feet is the standard in the US at those
> voltages.
>
> The LIRR also has some sort of clip on boxes that howl if there's third
> rail voltage. I don't think you can practically ground out the third
> rail (fault currents can exceed 100,000 amps), thus they use that,
> instead.
I remember reading a figure of 4600 A for a Eurostar when they used to run
on 750 V third rail, and 6100 A for a 12 car suburban train, three 4-car
units. This was some years ago, and I think the latest units may draw
somewhat more, plus there could me more than one train in an electrical
section. It would take time for the breaker to trip, so a much higher fault
current would flow for (hopefully) a very short time, so a figure of 100,000
A does seem possible.
In the UK trains do carry short-circuiting bars or devices for both third
rail main line and London Underground third and fourth rail systems. These
are normally applied after the conductor rails have been made dead, but in
an emergency can be applied to a live rail, as a means of turning off the
current, and drivers are trained to do this. If the bar is applied quickly
and firmly there is supposed to be little arcing, but I don't think I would
want to do it. If the breaker failed to trip, and the rail remained live
then I suspect the bar would probably melt after a while, but I don't know
for sure.
Philip Nasadowski
Stephen Furley <aoo...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> I remember reading a figure of 4600 A for a Eurostar when they used to run
> on 750 V third rail, and 6100 A for a 12 car suburban train, three 4-car
> units. This was some years ago, and I think the latest units may draw
> somewhat more, plus there could me more than one train in an electrical
> section. It would take time for the breaker to trip, so a much higher fault
> current would flow for (hopefully) a very short time, so a figure of 100,000
> A does seem possible.
I'm pretty sure the LIRR's current MUs are computer limited to 11,000 or
so amps per train, and the DM-30s probably were up there, ditto for NYC
subways.
The breakers would no doubt trip at a much lower current, but the
*available* fault current is on the order of 100,000 amps (or more). DC
breakers tend to be very fast in part to limit this.
David Lesher
>> The LIRR also has some sort of clip on boxes that howl if there's third
>> rail voltage. I don't think you can practically ground out the third
>> rail (fault currents can exceed 100,000 amps), thus they use that,
>> instead.
On Metro, this is called a WSAD & it has a strobe & horn.
>These are normally applied after the conductor rails have been made
>dead, but in an emergency can be applied to a live rail, as a means of
>turning off the current, and drivers are trained to do this. If the bar
>is applied quickly and firmly there is supposed to be little arcing, but
>I don't think I would want to do it. If the breaker failed to trip, and
>the rail remained live then I suspect the bar would probably melt after
>a while, but I don't know for sure.
There's a story about the WMATA 1982 Smithsonian crash. A firefighter
came up to the wreck and instead of walking a little further, and hitting
the marked Emergency Shutoff, he used his Hallagan to short out the third
rail.
There was a LARGE arc and molten metal flew around. He pulled back the
stub end of the tool, and another firefighter walked over & tripped the
shutdown. (THAT shut off the power..) The tool is allegedly displayed at
the training center's tunnel simulator...
Joseph D. Korman
talks about using shoe paddles to isolate the 600v from the car before
opening the main knife switch, which kills the third rail power from
that car. Also all 600v systems in the car must be off before the
paddles are used. It's important to note that if one shoe is in contact
with the third rail, all shoes are energized.
The other use for the shoe paddles was to jam the train operator cab
door slightly ajar to help ventilate the cab.
--
-------------------------------------------------
| Joseph D. Korman |
| mailto:re...@thejoekorner.com |
| Visit The JoeKorNer at |
| http://www.thejoekorner.com |
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video guy - www.locoworks.com
> Philip Nasadowski wrote:
> > In article
> �-------------------------------------------------- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
During rainstorms in Chicago I used to see drivers of trolly buses
rerailing (rewiring?) their contact poles using blocks of transfers
for insulation. It seemed like dubious protection to me, but I never
heard of a driver being zapped.
Stephen Furley
On 27/12/09 20:41, in article 4B37C68B...@earthlink.net, "Joseph D.
Korman" <joe...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I can't remember the reason for doing it, but the NYCTA rule book (2.54)
> talks about using shoe paddles to isolate the 600v from the car before
> opening the main knife switch, which kills the third rail power from
> that car. Also all 600v systems in the car must be off before the
> paddles are used. It's important to note that if one shoe is in contact
> with the third rail, all shoes are energized.
The procedure here to completely isolate a third-rail unit was to paddle up
the shoes, and then use a wooden T handled spanner carried on each train to
remove the shoe fuses. Most of our trains in third-rail land have been
replaced in recent years, and I'm not sure if the procedure is the same with
the new ones. Much easier on overhead units, just drop the pantograph and
close the earthing switch.
The shoe fuses were usually located above the shoe beams in an open-fronted
wooden box painted with the usual grey electrical insulating paint. When a
train was standing at a station they were not very far below the platform
edge, and I've got a feeling it would have been possible to touch them if
you put an arm down between the platform and the train.
> The other use for the shoe paddles was to jam the train operator cab
> door slightly ajar to help ventilate the cab.
Just the same here.
There are several types of short-circuiting device used here. This
document:
http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources/2008-01-31-R032008-MileEnd.pdf
Is the report into an accident on the London Underground. Figure 3 shows
the train still in place, with one type of device connected across the
positive (side) and negative (centre) conductor rails.
The type of bar used on the third-rail system South of London is quite
different. It consists of a long wooden handle, like a broom handle, but
thicker and stronger. Bolted to the bottom of this at one end is a thick
rectangular metal bar, about two feet long. A short length of this at the
handle end is bent down at a right angle, so that it can be held against toe
top and side of one of the running rails. Beyond where it is attached to
the handle the bar is bent up at a slight angle, and a sort of button with
sharp concentric ridges on it is attached to the upper surface near the end.
This is a modification made in fairly recent years.
The instructions for using the bar call for it to be inserted at an angle
between the conductor rail and the nearest running rail, with the
right-angle bend against the head of the running rail, and the far end under
the conductor rail. You then look away, and press down quickly and firmly
on the handle to bring the end of the bar into contact with the bottom of
the conductor rail (most of our conductor rails do not have any guarding on
them). The sharp ridges on the button are supposed to help break through
any rust and dirt on the conductor rail. As I wrote previously, I would not
want to do this. Other than in training a bar would only be applied while
the rail was live in an emergency. I have been shown a bar which had been
used in this way, and there was surprisingly little burning on it. I've
also spoken to a driver who had applied the bar to a live conductor rail in
training; she said it was something she didn't want to do again if she could
help it, and she would do most things.
There's a drawing here which shows another, older type of 4 rail device for
the Underground:
http://upminsterthroughtheyears.fotopic.net/p55950913.html
And instructions for staff in using the newer type here:
http://www.tubelines.com/whatwedo/training/courses/Course_guidance/LU_short_
circuiting_device.pdf
That newer type looks like you'd have to get closer to the rails than with
the older type, but it does say that it should only be used when the rails
are live in an extreme emergency.
I can't find a picture of the third rail type, but the last post on this
page:
http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Thread
ed&catid=227&threadid=23557#237977
Is from somebody who should know about them. I've never met him, but I have
read other things that he has written, and he says that the maximum short
circuit current can be up to 200 kA on the ex Southern Region lines; I think
it's less than this on the Underground.
Charles Ellson
<nasa...@usermale.com> wrote:
>In article <hh6172$sda$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> mrob...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
>> For 12 or 25 kV, it might be the case that nobody could react fast
>> enough. But if somebody gets themselves across one of the lower
>> voltages that is present inside the locomotive, the fiberglass pole
>> might come in handy.
>
>For 25kv, if they're not blasted away by the voltage, by the time anyone
>does anything, the person's long dead.
>
Not on this side of the pond. Kids typically manage to find some way
of not killing themselves outright but just burning themselves
horribly. One brat down the road from me about 20 years ago managed to
chuck something metallic over the lines at the end of his garden, not
harm himself but somehow set fire to his house which would have been
at least 50yds from the railway.
>At 1000-2000 volts?
>
About 3kV running of a dedicated generator IIRC, so none of
Hollywood's dimming of the prison lights while they burn big Louie
tonight.
>Well, electric chairs are in that area, and they
>typically take only a few seconds to do the job.
>
That's what is claimed but I don't think even Dr Mengele did any
proper research to prove it.
Philip Nasadowski
Charles Ellson <cha...@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Not on this side of the pond. Kids typically manage to find some way
> of not killing themselves outright but just burning themselves
> horribly. One brat down the road from me about 20 years ago managed to
> chuck something metallic over the lines at the end of his garden, not
> harm himself but somehow set fire to his house which would have been
> at least 50yds from the railway.
Generally, they're burnt in the initial flash, and thrown. They
survive, maybe with a few limbs missing.
> About 3kV running of a dedicated generator IIRC, so none of
> Hollywood's dimming of the prison lights while they burn big Louie
> tonight.
The lights wouldn't dim anyway - it's not like prisons have wimpy power
feeds.
Execution by electrocution is pretty rare in the US - these days most
states that do executions (not all do) use lethal injection.
The electric chair was invented by Edison, who specified the use of AC.
he also tried to popularize the term 'sending them to the Westinghouse'
for electrocution. It didn't stick. They're almost universally called
'Old sparky'.
Ob rail content: Metro-North's Hudson line actually passes through Sing
Sing (more or less). I'm guessing this is the only instance of such a
thing in the US, if not industrialized world...
> >Well, electric chairs are in that area, and they
> >typically take only a few seconds to do the job.
>
> That's what is claimed but I don't think even Dr Mengele did any
> proper research to prove it.
Supposedly the first electrocution in NY state took a few tries.
Florida's chair has recently been somewhat controversial for the special
effects that were sometimes happening. IMHO, whatever - it's not like
execute nice folks.
Charles Ellson
<nasa...@usermale.com> wrote:
>In article <3lqfj5plhcobr1vbh...@4ax.com>,
> Charles Ellson <cha...@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Not on this side of the pond. Kids typically manage to find some way
>> of not killing themselves outright but just burning themselves
>> horribly. One brat down the road from me about 20 years ago managed to
>> chuck something metallic over the lines at the end of his garden, not
>> harm himself but somehow set fire to his house which would have been
>> at least 50yds from the railway.
>
>Generally, they're burnt in the initial flash, and thrown. They
>survive, maybe with a few limbs missing.
>
>> About 3kV running of a dedicated generator IIRC, so none of
>> Hollywood's dimming of the prison lights while they burn big Louie
>> tonight.
>
>The lights wouldn't dim anyway - it's not like prisons have wimpy power
>feeds.
>
The traditional film portrayals usually date from the 1930s or 1940s
when I suspect there probably were some wimpy power supplies due to
the lighting being gas-powered and some of the prisons possibly being
on the end of a long piece of wet string in the middle of nowhere ?
>Execution by electrocution is pretty rare in the US - these days most
>states that do executions (not all do) use lethal injection.
>
The other thing they don't shout about is that the first "customer"
was Topsy the elephant who was fried by Edison in 1903 to prove that
DC was "less dangerous" than AC :-
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/01/dayintech_0104
>The electric chair was invented by Edison, who specified the use of AC.
>he also tried to popularize the term 'sending them to the Westinghouse'
>for electrocution. It didn't stick. They're almost universally called
>'Old sparky'.
>
>Ob rail content: Metro-North's Hudson line actually passes through Sing
>Sing (more or less). I'm guessing this is the only instance of such a
>thing in the US, if not industrialized world...
>
>> >Well, electric chairs are in that area, and they
>> >typically take only a few seconds to do the job.
>>
>> That's what is claimed but I don't think even Dr Mengele did any
>> proper research to prove it.
>
>Supposedly the first electrocution in NY state took a few tries.
>Florida's chair has recently been somewhat controversial for the special
>effects that were sometimes happening. IMHO, whatever - it's not like
>execute nice folks.
>
"Nice folks" can afford a good lawyer.
fur...@mail.croydon.ac.uk
> On Metro, this is called a WSAD & it has a strobe & horn.
Sorry, which city is this in; is it Washington DC? The only Americsn
trains I'm reasonably familiar with are in NY and NJ, plus I've made a
couple of trips on SEPTA.
> There's a story about the WMATA 1982 Smithsonian crash. A firefighter
> came up to the wreck and instead of walking a little further, and hitting
> the marked Emergency Shutoff, he used his Hallagan to short out the third
> rail.
What's a 'Hallagan'? It's interesting that you mention an 'Emergency
Shutoff'. Just to clarify, is this located at the trackside? If so,
what is the distance between them? Do they actually shot off the
power, or just send a signal to a control room somewhere, where a
human has to actually shut off the power?
We don't have anything like that here. When the Victoria Line of the
London Underground was built in the '60s, with automatic train
operation, emergency train stop buttons were provided on the platform
wall for use if, for example, somebody was to fall onto the track.
They looked like fire alarm call points, but painted yellow, and with
a paper disk instead of a glass. The button had to be pressed to
activate them, rather than being released by breaking the glass as in
a fire alarm system. I assumed that these would discharge the
traction current, but was later told that all they did was to take the
code off the automatic train control system, causing a train to make
an emergency stop. This was not made clear to passengers, the
instructions posted by each button made no mention of it, and I can
imagine a situation where somebody falls on the track, the device is
activated, an approaching train is stopped, and somebody seeing that
the train has stopped assumes that the power is off and jumps down
onto the track to offer assistance.
Having trackside devices to shut off power sounds like a good idea,
but I can see a problem with it. We have a lot of trouble with
vandalism here, and I suspect that they would be abused. They could
be made key operated I suppose, but then you have the problem that
somebody actually needs to use one in an emergency, and cannot find
their key, or drops it, or suddenly remembers that they lent it to
somebody the previous week, or whatever.
Joseph D. Korman
> On 27 Dec, 19:33, David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On Metro, this is called a WSAD & it has a strobe & horn.
>>
>
> Sorry, which city is this in; is it Washington DC? The only Americsn
> trains I'm reasonably familiar with are in NY and NJ, plus I've made a
> couple of trips on SEPTA.
>
>
>> There's a story about the WMATA 1982 Smithsonian crash. A firefighter
>> came up to the wreck and instead of walking a little further, and hitting
>> the marked Emergency Shutoff, he used his Hallagan to short out the third
>> rail.
>>
>
> What's a 'Hallagan'? It's interesting that you mention an 'Emergency
> Shutoff'. Just to clarify, is this located at the trackside? If so,
> what is the distance between them? Do they actually shot off the
> power, or just send a signal to a control room somewhere, where a
> human has to actually shut off the power?
>
>
http://www.botachtactical.com/suhatostde.html
As to emergency shut offs, the NYCT has them trackside about every
600'. They kill the power on all tracks for a distance on both sides of
the switch. After activation, the user is supposed to call the command
center to report why and what track the emergency is on. There's a
phone next to the switch. The command center folks then call the system
operator to restore power where it's safe, based on the field report.
In a non emergency, the field folks call the command center to request
power off by track and location. This is more controlled. The CC then
call the system operator to isolate the track section.
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David Lesher
>> On Metro, this is called a WSAD & it has a strobe & horn.
>Sorry, which city is this in; is it Washington DC?
Yes, WMATA in the DC region.
>What's a 'Hallagan'? It's interesting that you mention an 'Emergency
>Shutoff'. Just to clarify, is this located at the trackside?
Sorry I fat-fingered the spelling; it's one "l" and is the tool
a firefighter uses for forcing entry into a building.
The shutoffs are along the trackage, both underground and above. At least
above ground, they are most common at the emergency entry gates, and near
the ends of platforms. They have large blue lamps. As far as I know, they
shunt trip out the breakers feeding that track section. The OCC can also
trip them remotely.
You can find the ntsb.gov report on the Shady Grove crash; it will have
more detail.
>Having trackside devices to shut off power sounds like a good idea,
>but I can see a problem with it. We have a lot of trouble with
>vandalism here, and I suspect that they would be abused. They could
>be made key operated I suppose, but then you have the problem that
>somebody actually needs to use one in an emergency, and cannot find
>their key, or drops it, or suddenly remembers that they lent it to
>somebody the previous week, or whatever.
They are not on the platforms but just off of them. Locking them
would defeat the purpose.
Stephen Furley
On 26/12/09 23:31, in article
nasadowsk-72308...@news.optonline.net, "Philip Nasadowski"
<nasa...@usermale.com> wrote:
> NYC subway cars still have short paddles to isolate the car from the
> third rail, though I doubt they're ever used much. I'm guessing that
> the big use is pull the main switch, then isolate the shoe and change
> the shoe fuse. AFAIK, all NYC subway cars have a main knife switch, and
> so do the LIRR cars.
Everything before the knife switch, and indeed the switch itself, would
still be live; wouldn't help if you had something arcing or burning under
the train for example.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Generally, they're burnt in the initial flash, and thrown. They
> survive, maybe with a few limbs missing.
Often that is the case. Followed by a big lawsuit against the
railroad. Notable cases included a drunk kid at the Princeton Station
(dinky car) and at Lancaster, PA (climbing atop a freight car).
> > About 3kV running of a dedicated generator IIRC, so none of
> > Hollywood's dimming of the prison lights while they burn big Louie
> > tonight.
>
> The lights wouldn't dim anyway - it's not like prisons have wimpy power
> feeds.
When a kid got zapped atop a boxcar in our neighborhood the lights
dimmed. Presumably house power and railroad power were on different
circuits, but they did dim at the time of the tragic accident.
The warden of Sing Sing wrote a book, circa 1930, claiming the
electric chair was absolutely painless. But he also claimed the death
penalty (carried out frequently back then) was unfairly issued and
ought to be abolished. He was also against the four strikes rule.
Despite being a 1930s book, it was surprisingly progressive and a good
book. Prison life was far more regimented back then than today, but
yet not quite as oppressive (hard to explain). Inmates in the past
accepted their guilt and were more willing to "do their own time" and
not get into trouble; while today gangs and fights are a big problem.
> Ob rail content: Metro-North's Hudson line actually passes through Sing
> Sing (more or less). I'm guessing this is the only instance of such a
> thing in the US, if not industrialized world...
More like under (tracks go under). Years ago prisoners would be
transported by train "up the river".
The Holmesburg Prison is adjacent to the NEC in Phila. The Trenton
State prison is across from the River Line stop. It wouldn't surprise
me if other prisons were adjacent to active railroad lines elsewhere
in the U.S.
In the old days, large institutions such as a prison or state school/
state home would be served by a siding to deliver supplies and coal.
Work details would shovel up the coal from the siding into the
building. A campus of buildings might be served by a central power
house with steam lines serving the buildings.
> IMHO, whatever - it's not like
> execute nice folks.
Sometimes they execute the wrong folks, and there's no going back once
that's done.
Someone who the state labels as a "viscious killer" has few friends or
supporters, but just might be innocent.
Stephen Sprunk
> On Dec 27, 7:58 pm, Philip Nasadowski <nasado...@usermale.com> wrote:
>> Generally, they're burnt in the initial flash, and thrown. They
>> survive, maybe with a few limbs missing.
>
> Often that is the case. Followed by a big lawsuit against the
> railroad. Notable cases included a drunk kid at the Princeton Station
> (dinky car) and at Lancaster, PA (climbing atop a freight car).
Grrr. We really need some reform in our tort laws, starting with a
provision that someone cannot recover damages if they were injured (or
killed) during the commission of a crime. The current "contributory
negligence" system, only in use in some states anyway, is nowhere near
sufficient because they can still recover _some_ money even if they are
"partially" at fault.
>>> About 3kV running of a dedicated generator IIRC, so none of
>>> Hollywood's dimming of the prison lights while they burn big Louie
>>> tonight.
>>
>> The lights wouldn't dim anyway - it's not like prisons have wimpy power
>> feeds.
>
> When a kid got zapped atop a boxcar in our neighborhood the lights
> dimmed. Presumably house power and railroad power were on different
> circuits, but they did dim at the time of the tragic accident.
They're all fed from the same three-phase distribution lines. I'm
surprised that a single short was enough to dim the power even briefly,
but the RRs _do_ use high voltages and have high currents available, so
I can see that it's possible to cause a voltage drop at the distribution
level.
A prison wouldn't have anywhere near the same voltage or current
available; lights might dim within the prison in an extreme case, but it
shouldn't affect neighbors.
> Inmates in the past accepted their guilt and were more willing to "do
> their own time" and not get into trouble; while today gangs and fights
> are a big problem.
Indeed. Criminals have also gotten a lot more violent on the outside to
avoid going in (e.g. killing any witnesses to "lesser" crimes), which
leads to even more violence on the inside for the few that are caught.
Keep in mind that the Valentine's Day "massacre", a couple dozen people,
was shocking enough at the time to get the _Constitution_ changed.
People don't even bat an eye at similar events today because they happen
every day. We've become desensitized to it, to the point that many
think that prison violence/rape is "good" because the people in there
"deserve it" as part of their punishment, while the reality is that it
just teaches convicts to be that much more violent when they get out.
>> IMHO, whatever - it's not like execute nice folks.
>
> Sometimes they execute the wrong folks, and there's no going back once
> that's done.
OTOH, keeping someone in for "life" usually means they will get out in
25 years--or as little as 8 years with "good behavior" (which means they
didn't murder anyone while inside and/or the state is low on money).
Even "life without parole" can give them 50+ years to try to escape,
kill other inmates or guards, etc., and there's nothing to stop them
from trying because there's nothing more than can be done to them.
It'd be a lot cheaper (one of the right's favorite complaints about life
sentences) if we provided better social services and education to
_prevent_ crime (which is, in most cases, a direct result of poverty)
and quit locking people up for non-violent drug offenses (over half of
our current prison population). Few politicians have the courage to try
it, though, because it means raising taxes in the short term.
> Someone who the state labels as a "viscious killer" has few friends or
> supporters, but just might be innocent.
True. In particular, we should have a moratorium on executions for
pre-DNA cases until the evidence can be retested and, if necessary, a
new trial conducted. Continuing to execute people when Project
Innocence is getting _hundreds_ of wrongful convictions overturned per
year boggles the mind--and I say that as someone who supports the death
penalty in principle.
(In a county near me, the motto of the DA in the '80s was "anyone can
convict the guilty; only the best can convict the innocent", so I'm a
bit biased against the criminal "justice" system.)
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
AMM
> On Dec 27, 7:58 pm, Philip Nasadowski <nasado...@usermale.com> wrote:
>
> > Ob rail content: Metro-North's Hudson line actually passes through Sing
> > Sing (more or less). I'm guessing this is the only instance of such a
> > thing in the US, if not industrialized world...
>
> More like under (tracks go under). Years ago prisoners would be
> transported by train "up the river".
"Through" in the sense that Sing Sing prison ("Ossining Correctional
Institution") is on both sides, but not above. It's set up like two
separate prisons with high (30'? 50'?) walls around each
part, and 2 or 3 bridges above the tracks to connect the two parts.
I believe the West (river) side is the lower-security part,
called "Tappan". The East (land) side is definitely the
high-security part. I don't know what the West side
looks like inside the walls, I have been inside the East
side, and it has a large grassy area between the
outer walls and the actual prison building, apparently
a kind of no-man's land. The river view from the grassy
area is the kind that people play millions for.
I also believe that on those occasions when prisoners
are transported between the two sides, they are
transported in prison buses, with full security,
almost as if they were being transported between
prisons.
Once or twice a decade, there's an escape, and I can
recall one time when the Hudson line was shut down
in Ossining for a little while during the search.
Adam H. Kerman
>fur...@mail.croydon.ac.uk writes:
>>What's a 'Hallagan'? It's interesting that you mention an 'Emergency
>>Shutoff'. Just to clarify, is this located at the trackside?
>Sorry I fat-fingered the spelling; it's one "l" and is the tool
>a firefighter uses for forcing entry into a building.
It's Halligan, for Hugh Halligan, a high-ranking New York fire chief who
designed it.
gl4...@yahoo.com
<a2c9935e-d6cc-4c6b...@g26g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
> During rainstorms in Chicago I used to see drivers of trolly buses
> rerailing (rewiring?) their contact poles using blocks of transfers
> for insulation. It seemed like dubious protection to me, but I never
> heard of a driver being zapped.
As long as the paper is dry, then paper isn't too bad an insulator.
I'm not quite sure how you would use transfers to rerail those, however,
since the wire is much further up in the air than the driver is able to
reach by hand.
Written on the back of all Seattle trolley buses:
"If checking shoes, be sure to turn off power switch and tap poles
together." Apparently on King County Metro, they are more worried about
accumulated charge on capacitors and other equipment in the trolley bus
than they are with anyone coming into contact with the wire.
--
-Glennl
Please note this e-mail address is a pit of spam, and most e-mail sent to this address are simply lost in the vast mess.
video guy - www.locoworks.com
> I'm not quite sure how you would use transfers to rerail those, however,
> since the wire is much further up in the air than the driver is able to
> reach by hand.
>
There were ropes or cables descending from the poles at the back of
the bus to reels mounted about chest-high. The conductor grasped
those ropes with a block of transfers in his hand when rerailing the
shoes. This I have seen accomplished in a driving rainstorm. It
seemed dangerous to me. The spark and noise the shoe made when it
made contact with the wire was impressive.
gl4...@yahoo.com
<4c014863-8627-47ff...@f5g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, "video
Those cables / ropes are not electrified, just as they are not electrified
in regular trolley cars. They were probably trying to keep their hands
from getting rope burns, and/or dirty from the accumulated grime on the
rope.
The reels are called "retrievers" and snap the pole down, using the rope,
if the pole leaves the wire. This keeps the pole from damaging the
overhead if it dewires - or at least it is supposed to.
The actual conductor runs inside the pole.
video guy - www.locoworks.com
>
> Those cables / ropes are not electrified,
If it's raining like a cow pissing on a flat rock and you are standing
in a puddle--- would you bet on that?
gl4...@yahoo.com
<3e22a593-efc7-49b4...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, "video
Considering the metal handrails and various other metal parts in the
trolley bus / streetcar, you make the same bet just getting on and off.
If the rope has been electrified, then so has the rest of the car body
through the rope.