Engine on/off sensor
David Baker
I'm looking for a sensor or method to detect whether vessel engines
are idling or turned off. The vessel owners charge the hirer based on
3 different rates depending on whether they are running at full speed,
idling or engines turned off (but generator(s) still running). The
owners want a method of checking the invoices.
I'm trying NOT to hook anything into the engines if possible because
this device will be fitted to (I hope) 25 vessels, all with different
types of engines, some have 2 engines, some 3, some 4. Trying to find
something that will interface into every one of these will be a
nightmare!
I can detect running or stopped with GPS, but am having trouble with
idling or engines off.
I'm thinking there might be some sort of vibration detector, or maybe
even a microphone with a filter that would detect engines going or
not. Ideally this sensor should have some sort of serial output so it
can go into a computer. Even more ideally, it shouldn't have to go in
the engine room - on the bridge would be perfect.
Any ideas? Any lateral thinking that would achieve the desired
results?
Dave
CC
cc
David Baker <da...@baker.pc.my> wrote in message
news:5klbrt0jl12ltlsed...@4ax.com...
Con Daly
Hmmm,
Maybe something along the lines of a musical acoustic piezo-electric
pickup/transducer, is what you need, preferably for acoustic bass and that
sticks on adhesively to a surface. I've seen these before.
Detecting frequencies in such a low range would be a challenge though filtering
out anything higher shouldn't be too much of a problem. It's just that there
might well be other frequencies in the same range from other sources on the
boats, especially when they're running in any kind of swell. I guess it would
have to be physically as near to the engine as possible. The same places that
trade in these would probably be also supply a suitable pre-amp/filter unit. I'm
guessing it's all diesel you're dealing with. With petrol engines the ignition
could be picked up on the cheapest pocket radio on the medium wave band and
taken from there.
As for interfacing/logging the output from the pre-amp I'm not really sure.
You mentioned computers.....this this mean on every boat? I'm sure there's
plenty of waveform analysis/logging software out there, usually they call it a
virtual oscilloscope, then the waveforms could be examined for different
frequencies corresponding to different engine states. But i get the feeling you
were looking for something far less complex than this.
The web is full of information about commercial compact data loggers that can
interface directly with a transducer, or maybe even a tachometer. The info can
then be uploaded to a pc later on using software supplied with the logger.
check this link
http://www.veriteq.com/html/vrtq2400.htm
hope this helps
Con.
Conor Daly
>
>Can't you just monitor the status of the oil pressure switch ?
>
>cc
>
>
Con
Evan Gatehouse & Diane Selkirk
>
> I'm looking for a sensor or method to detect whether vessel engines
> are idling or turned off. The vessel owners charge the hirer based on
> 3 different rates depending on whether they are running at full speed,
> idling or engines turned off (but generator(s) still running). The
> owners want a method of checking the invoices.
>
> I'm trying NOT to hook anything into the engines if possible because
> this device will be fitted to (I hope) 25 vessels, all with different
> types of engines, some have 2 engines, some 3, some 4. Trying to find
> something that will interface into every one of these will be a
> nightmare!
This might be too easy BUT - how about an engine hour meter (a $50 clock
that runs when the engine is running). This gives you total engine running
time (idling + running around). Subtract time spent running around that you
somehow figure out with your fancy GPS device. This would require somebody
to look at the hour meter at the end of the rental period (just like a
rental car where they check the odometer). Might not be what you're looking
for.
--
Evan Gatehouse
Glenn Ashmore
outboards, every marine engine should have a tach.
David Baker wrote:
--
Glenn Ashmore
I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
David Baker
wrote:
>In article <9p5ao2$pii$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>, CC says...
>>
>>Can't you just monitor the status of the oil pressure switch ?
>Sounds a lot more practical than my post. Strike that one...hehe
Strange - I didn't receive your post OR CC's post!
Trouble is there are up to 4 oil pressure meters (don't know if there
are any switches), and some are digital & some are analog. Most likely
all are different. :-)
Dave
David Baker
<gash...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Why won't the tach do wnat you want? Unless you are talking about
>outboards, every marine engine should have a tach.
I may have to - just wondering if there is a simpler solution.
The trouble with this that some boats have completely computerized
systems (running 4 x CAT or MAN diesels) so the tacho on the bridge is
basically an LCD computer display. Some boats probably even have a
mechanical cable tacho! :-)
I'm hoping for a solution that doesn't involve 25 sensors for the 25
different boats... Maybe a vibration sensor that could be epoxied onto
the outside of the engine - it would have some sort of threshold so
the vibrations from other engines didn't interfere. It may possibly
even be able to gauge RPM from the vibrations. This way the same
sensor could be used for all the different types of engines & boats...
Dave
David Baker
<cei...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>This might be too easy BUT - how about an engine hour meter (a $50 clock
>that runs when the engine is running). This gives you total engine running
>time (idling + running around). Subtract time spent running around that you
>somehow figure out with your fancy GPS device. This would require somebody
>to look at the hour meter at the end of the rental period (just like a
>rental car where they check the odometer).
I'm trying to make this as computerised as possible. We have UHF &
Inmarsat transmitters, so the plan is to collect all the data
automatically, create the report automatically & transmit the report
back to base at regular intervals via UHF or Inmarsat, depending where
the vessel is.
The hour meter will only tell me how long the engine was
running/stopped. I need to correlate this information in real-time
with where the vessel was at the time - we don't want them turning
their engines off at sea (safety reasons - this is in an oil field),
and we don't want them leaving their engines idling for hours
alongside the wharf to try & get more money.
Dave
Jaydee
da...@baker.pc.my says...
Just winding up a long career on ships here.
Maybe a practical solution - monitor shaft RPM and exhaust temperature
(I assume diesel). If exhaust is over some trigger value, the engine is
running, then examine RPM to see if IDLE etc.
Just for kicks, a flip answer would be to allow the home OFFICE to
control the engine via satellite. Then it would become their
responsibility to log everything. LOL - I hate the office bean counters
trying to examine everything. They are a butt pain.
Jim
Bob - D&B Marine
With no pressure, they provided a ground. We use to have to bypass on
engine start up
Most of your 10hp engines and above now come standard with such switches
--
Bob
D&B Marine
1-888-535-2628
http://www.dbmarine.com
"David Baker" <da...@baker.pc.my> wrote in message
news:5klbrt0jl12ltlsed...@4ax.com...
David Baker
<dbma...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>Most of your 10hp engines and above now come standard with such switches
Ours are closer to 3500hp - each! :-)
I'll have a look though & see what they have - if I can get to
Indonesia. Seems most people are leaving at the moment...
Dave
David Baker
>Maybe a practical solution - monitor shaft RPM and exhaust temperature
>(I assume diesel). If exhaust is over some trigger value, the engine is
>running, then examine RPM to see if IDLE etc.
Sounds promising. I could pretty easily do exhaust temperature (or at
least the outside of the exhaust system). I might throw a sensor on &
do some graphs to see how it looks.
>Just for kicks, a flip answer would be to allow the home OFFICE to
>control the engine via satellite. Then it would become their
>responsibility to log everything. LOL - I hate the office bean counters
>trying to examine everything. They are a butt pain.
Yeah, true, but it gives us techs some interesting things to play
with. The company reckons they are losing US$2 million/month in stolen
fuel!
Dave
ed
says...
Tap off of your oil pressure sense. If the engine isn't running your
pressure will be 0 or if your into making things, monitor your pulley
rotation with an optical sensor. Oil pressure seems easiest.
Rod McInnis
David Baker wrote:
>
> This might be a difficult one!
>
> I'm looking for a sensor or method to detect whether vessel engines
> are idling or turned off. The vessel owners charge the hirer based on
> 3 different rates depending on whether they are running at full speed,
> idling or engines turned off (but generator(s) still running). The
> owners want a method of checking the invoices.
My first reaction is that you are making life way too difficult for
everyone!
>
> I'm trying NOT to hook anything into the engines if possible because
> this device will be fitted to (I hope) 25 vessels, all with different
> types of engines, some have 2 engines, some 3, some 4. Trying to find
> something that will interface into every one of these will be a
> nightmare!
Are these all gas, all diesel, or some mix?
I can't think of any off the shelf item that would give you what you
want. You could make a custom device, but it would require some amount
of tailoring to each vessel and would be prone to false readings and
might be easily circumvented by the crew.
>
> I can detect running or stopped with GPS, but am having trouble with
> idling or engines off.
Most engines come equipped with an hour meter, which should give you a
reasonable indication of how much the engines have been run. Your first
paragraph indicated you wanted to know how fast they were being run, so
you would need a lot more information than just ON or OFF.
>
> I'm thinking there might be some sort of vibration detector, or maybe
> even a microphone with a filter that would detect engines going or
> not. Ideally this sensor should have some sort of serial output so it
> can go into a computer. Even more ideally, it shouldn't have to go in
> the engine room - on the bridge would be perfect.
A gasoline engine would have an electric tach, with a wire leading
from the bridge to the engine. It would be easy to build a circuit that
tapped into this line to feed RPM information to a computer interface.
Diesel engines would be a bit more difficult. If the tach is electronic,
then you could still tap off the line and feed it to a computer
interface. If the tach is mechanical then you would have to add
something, either to the engine or on the tach cable.
If you don't mind adding sensors to the engine then here is an idea.
It would not be hard to add a sensor that could detect the prop shaft
turning. It might involve gluing a small magnet to the shaft or
coupling and then mounting a sensor or two on a bracket off the back of
the transmission. Using just one sensor could work but would be prone
to false readings. With two sensors you would look for a pulse on one
then a pulse on the other, ignoring any repeats on the same sensor.
Noting the order of the sensors would also give you forward/reverse
information.
With this you would have GPS information to show movement and actual
velocity, Oil pressure or hour meter logs to show engine running time,
and shaft rotations to show time actually spent underway and engine
RPMS. Idle time would be the difference in engine hours versus shaft
rotation hours.
Rod McInnis
David Baker
wrote:
> My first reaction is that you are making life way too difficult for
>everyone!
To try to stop US$2 million worth of fuel theft per month, the system
has to be pretty smart...The vessel tracking system has already been
installed & working for some time now.
> Are these all gas, all diesel, or some mix?
All diesel. Smallest engines are probably 1000 hp, with some up to
5000 hp.
>Most engines come equipped with an hour meter, which should give you a
>reasonable indication of how much the engines have been run. Your first
>paragraph indicated you wanted to know how fast they were being run, so
>you would need a lot more information than just ON or OFF.
RPM would be nice, but On/Off would be the bare minimum, allowing us
to detect whether engines are idling or off when the vessel is moving.
>Diesel engines would be a bit more difficult. If the tach is electronic,
>then you could still tap off the line and feed it to a computer
>interface. If the tach is mechanical then you would have to add
>something, either to the engine or on the tach cable.
The only boat I've managed to look into in any detail has a black box
strapped to the side of the engine with all the wires pretty difficult
to get to before the black box. The box output is a digital composite
signal giving complete engine information that is displayed on a large
LCD display. That is why I'm leaning towards my own sensors,
preferably ones that can be just strapped externally.
Thanks for all the info from everyone - I think we'll probably look at
some sort of oil pressure sensor and/or RPM sensor. Now all I have to
do is find something suitable for 25 different boats all with
different engines! :-)
Dave
Peter Bennett
wrote:
>This might be a difficult one!
>
>I'm looking for a sensor or method to detect whether vessel engines
>are idling or turned off. The vessel owners charge the hirer based on
>3 different rates depending on whether they are running at full speed,
>idling or engines turned off (but generator(s) still running). The
>owners want a method of checking the invoices.
>
>I'm trying NOT to hook anything into the engines if possible because
>this device will be fitted to (I hope) 25 vessels, all with different
>types of engines, some have 2 engines, some 3, some 4. Trying to find
>something that will interface into every one of these will be a
>nightmare!
I would connect to the ignition switch to determine running/off, and
add a microswitch to the shift levers to detect when it is in neutral
as the "idle" indication.
--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
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