Cost of synagogue collation deductible?
Jonathan Kamens
Saturday morning. For a $75 donation, a member can sponsor
the collation in honor of a special occasion. Members can
donate more than that if they would like extra food to be
served that isn't usually served. Finally, members can pay
an outside caterer to cater the collation.
It seems obvious that the $75 donation is deductible. It
also seems that any amount donated to the synagogue over the
$75 is probably also deductible. The question I have is,
can the amount of money paid to an outside caterer to do the
collation be deducted as goods and services donated to the
synagogue?
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John H. Fisher
> Saturday morning. For a $75 donation, a member can sponsor
> the collation in honor of a special occasion. Members can
> donate more than that if they would like extra food to be
> served that isn't usually served. Finally, members can pay
> an outside caterer to cater the collation.
>
> It seems obvious that the $75 donation is deductible. It
> also seems that any amount donated to the synagogue over the
> $75 is probably also deductible. The question I have is,
> can the amount of money paid to an outside caterer to do the
> collation be deducted as goods and services donated to the
> synagogue?
merchandise, goods, or services, including admission to a
charity ball, banquet, theatrical performance, or sporting
event, you can deduct only the amount that exceeds the fair
market value of the benefit received.
If you'd like more info, go here:
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc506.html
"Jack" - John H. Fisher - TaxSe...@aol.com
Philadelphia, Pa - Atlantic City, NJ - West Wildwood, NJ
My Newsgroups & Boards at: http://members.aol.com/TaxService/index.html
Where Ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise!=:)
Arthur Kamlet
> My synagogue serves a small collation after services every
> Saturday morning. For a $75 donation, a member can sponsor
> the collation in honor of a special occasion. Members can
> donate more than that if they would like extra food to be
> served that isn't usually served. Finally, members can pay
> an outside caterer to cater the collation.
>
> It seems obvious that the $75 donation is deductible. It
> also seems that any amount donated to the synagogue over the
> $75 is probably also deductible. The question I have is,
> can the amount of money paid to an outside caterer to do the
> collation be deducted as goods and services donated to the
> synagogue?
Seems to me you should be donating to the synagogue any
amounts they would have to pay for food and caterer's costs.
Let them pay the caterer.
They should receipt to you the amount you donated and also
indicate the amount of return value you -- not the rest of
the congregation -- received. Hosting a collation is part
of the synagogue's normal religious provisions, along with
religious services, rabbi's services, etc. In fact, your
return value of the donation to this kiddush fund is likely
to be mor ein the nature of what the IRS calls "intangible
religious value" than an established dollar amount.
Anyway, that's my 2c.
__
Art Kamlet ArtKamlet @ AOL.com Columbus OH K2PZH
Harry
> My synagogue serves a small collation after services every
> Saturday morning. For a $75 donation, a member can sponsor
> the collation in honor of a special occasion. Members can
> donate more than that if they would like extra food to be
> served that isn't usually served. Finally, members can pay
> an outside caterer to cater the collation.
>
> It seems obvious that the $75 donation is deductible. It
> also seems that any amount donated to the synagogue over the
> $75 is probably also deductible. The question I have is,
> can the amount of money paid to an outside caterer to do the
> collation be deducted as goods and services donated to the
> synagogue?
A charitible contribution is a "gift" made to a qualifiying
organization. Problems arise when defining "gift" which
includes donative intent, absence of consideration, and
acceptance by the donee. If the donor derives a "tangible
benefit" (it think being fed falls here) from the donation
he/she cannot deduct the value of the benefit. It is
questionable whether any of the donation is a charitible
contribution, but the exrta money for extra food is clearly
not, nor any catering expenses.
Jonathan Kamens
> Shalom!!=:) If your contribution entitles you to
> merchandise, goods, or services, including admission to a
> charity ball, banquet, theatrical performance, or sporting
> event, you can deduct only the amount that exceeds the fair
> market value of the benefit received.
I know what the IRS publications say. If I felt they were
clear enough on my particular question, I wouldn't have
asked the question here.
Barry Margolin
>> My synagogue serves a small collation after services every
>> Saturday morning. For a $75 donation, a member can sponsor
>> the collation in honor of a special occasion. Members can
>> donate more than that if they would like extra food to be
>> served that isn't usually served. Finally, members can pay
>> an outside caterer to cater the collation.
>>
>> It seems obvious that the $75 donation is deductible. It
>> also seems that any amount donated to the synagogue over the
>> $75 is probably also deductible. The question I have is,
>> can the amount of money paid to an outside caterer to do the
>> collation be deducted as goods and services donated to the
>> synagogue?
> A charitible contribution is a "gift" made to a qualifiying
> organization. Problems arise when defining "gift" which
> includes donative intent, absence of consideration, and
> acceptance by the donee. If the donor derives a "tangible
> benefit" (it think being fed falls here) from the donation
> he/she cannot deduct the value of the benefit. It is
> questionable whether any of the donation is a charitible
> contribution, but the exrta money for extra food is clearly
> not, nor any catering expenses.
If the donor derives a tangible benefit, don't they still
get a deduction for the difference between the contribution
and benefit? So if he contributes $75, and eats $5 worth of
food, he has a net $70 deductible contribution. And if he
donates more money so that there will be more food, he'll
probably still only eat $5 of it himself, so he still gets
to deduct the contribution amount minus $5.
Most of the respondents have missed the meat of his
question. He wasn't asking whether the cash donations are
deductible, his question was about the case where the donor
pays a third party directly to cater provide the food. It
seems to me that this should be similar to the case where he
buys the food himself, and then contributes it to the
synagogue. However, there's a big difference: if he did
that, he's only considered to be contributing the cost of
the food. When you hire a caterer, you're paying for
services as well, and I don't think that component is
deductible.
The IRS might consider it more similar to a situation where
you made a donation with the restriction that it be used to
purchase services from a particular caterer. I don't think
that contributions with restrictions like this are
deductible in general.
--
Barry Margolin, bar...@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
John H. Fisher
>> merchandise, goods, or services, including admission to a
>> charity ball, banquet, theatrical performance, or sporting
>> event, you can deduct only the amount that exceeds the fair
>> market value of the benefit received.
> I know what the IRS publications say. If I felt they were
> clear enough on my particular question, I wouldn't have
> asked the question here.
My GOODNESS!!=:) I just researched your credentials. I
really regret that I didn't know. Otherwise I wouldn't have
made the contribution!!=:)
"Jack" - John H. Fisher - TaxSe...@aol.com
Philadelphia, Pa - Atlantic City, NJ - West Wildwood, NJ
My Newsgroups & Boards at: http://members.aol.com/TaxService/index.html
Where Ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise!=:)
<< ------------------------------------------------->>
Ed Zollars, CPA
> It seems obvious that the $75 donation is deductible. It
> also seems that any amount donated to the synagogue over the
> $75 is probably also deductible. The question I have is,
> can the amount of money paid to an outside caterer to do the
> collation be deducted as goods and services donated to the
> synagogue?
My own take is *probably*, though it would depend on the
facts of the situation. To give an absurd example--let's
say I paid for food to be served at my church following
services which is normally served. That seems fine to me
whether I pay for it directly, or merely give it to the
church and let them pay for it. In fact, during the summer
months at my church we do have members work to provide a
"brunch" between services.
Similarly, it would seem fine if I just "got fancy" and
purchased food that was more expensive than what is normally
served--so if I brought in somewhat "more expensive" food
and it was offered to all then I don't see a problem--that
is, I don't have to bring in the absolutely cheapest food we
could get away with <grin>.
However, if I tried to rig it so that I was essentially
limiting the benefit to myself and my family, then I think
you have a problem. For instance, if I bought extra food
that would be served to the "workers" that put the brunch
together--and those workers just happen to be myself and my
family <grin>.
--
Ed Zollars, CPA
Phoenix, Arizona
Sassy Baskets, EA
> get a deduction for the difference between the contribution
> and benefit? So if he contributes $75, and eats $5 worth of
> food, he has a net $70 deductible contribution. And if he
> donates more money so that there will be more food, he'll
> probably still only eat $5 of it himself, so he still gets
> to deduct the contribution amount minus $5.
It sounds to me like the donor gets fed whether he sponsors
the collation or not. In that case, the full $75 should be
deductible. If he donates more money, then it makes sense to
subtract the value of the additional food he eats himself.
D. Stussy
I disagree. This can fit into the "out of pocket" expense
category. Remember that IRC 170(c) says "to or for the use
of" - and third-party payments that benefit the charity are
"for the use of." However, I still have a problem with the
Tax Court's position that even "out of pocket" expenses that
exceed $250 still need an acknowledgement even though
170(f)(8) only says "gifts to the charity" and apparently
excludes the indirect gift (by omitting "for the use of").
I think that the real question here is whether it is of
benefit to the charity or just to its supporting members -
i.e. how close is the event of the gathering to the event of
charitable [religious] purpose that transpired before it
(and I don't just mean temporal closeness).
Stuart Bronstein
> "Harry" <h...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>"Jonathan Kamens" <j...@kamens.brookline.ma.us> wrote:
>>> My synagogue serves a small collation after services every
>>> Saturday morning. For a $75 donation, a member can sponsor
>>> the collation in honor of a special occasion. Members can
>>> donate more than that if they would like extra food to be
>>> served that isn't usually served. Finally, members can pay
>>> an outside caterer to cater the collation.
>> A charitible contribution is a "gift" made to a qualifiying
>> organization. Problems arise when defining "gift" which
>> includes donative intent, absence of consideration, and
>> acceptance by the donee. If the donor derives a "tangible
>> benefit" (it think being fed falls here) from the donation
>> he/she cannot deduct the value of the benefit. It is
>> questionable whether any of the donation is a charitible
>> contribution, but the exrta money for extra food is clearly
>> not, nor any catering expenses.
> If the donor derives a tangible benefit, don't they still
> get a deduction for the difference between the contribution
> and benefit?
Well, yes.
> So if he contributes $75, and eats $5 worth of food, he has
> a net $70 deductible contribution.
Well, no. He gets to deduct the difference between the
contribution and the value, not the cost of what he
receives. If he is eating in a restaurant and a normal meal
in a restaurant like that, consisting of $5 of food, would
be $25, he only gets to deduct $50.
> And if he donates more money so that there will be more
> food, he'll probably still only eat $5 of it himself, so
> he still gets to deduct the contribution amount minus $5.
It's not about what he personally eats, but the "value" of
what he receives in total.
Stu
Stuart Bronstein
> taxse...@aol.compliance (John H. Fisher) writes:
>> Shalom!!=:) If your contribution entitles you to
>> merchandise, goods, or services, including admission to a
>> charity ball, banquet, theatrical performance, or sporting
>> event, you can deduct only the amount that exceeds the fair
>> market value of the benefit received.
> I know what the IRS publications say. If I felt they were
> clear enough on my particular question, I wouldn't have
> asked the question here.
Sounds like what you want to hear is that you can write off
everything you spent. You can't. It's just that simple.
If you want to figure out exactly how much you can, talk to
a local tax professional, who can best analyze the specific
factors involoved.
Stu
Jonathan Kamens
> Sounds like what you want to hear is that you can write off
> everything you spent. You can't. It's just that simple.
No, that's not "wnat I want to hear." I want opinions about
how much, if any, of what I paid the caterer is deductible.
What I don't want is people quoting the IRS publications at
me; as I said, I've read the publications and I do not
believe they are clear on this question.
It appears to me that there is enough of a difference of
opinion on this matter (some say it's all deductible, some
say some is deductible, and some say none is deductible, and
all make legitimate arguments for their positions) that it
probably isn't worth claiming the deduction, which would net
me about $56 -- 15% of $375.
Harlan Lunsford
>> get a deduction for the difference between the contribution
>> and benefit? So if he contributes $75, and eats $5 worth of
>> food, he has a net $70 deductible contribution. And if he
>> donates more money so that there will be more food, he'll
>> probably still only eat $5 of it himself, so he still gets
>> to deduct the contribution amount minus $5.
> It sounds to me like the donor gets fed whether he sponsors
> the collation or not. In that case, the full $75 should be
> deductible. If he donates more money, then it makes sense to
> subtract the value of the additional food he eats himself.
Come on now! 75$ to feed the congregation? That's better
than Jesus did with the loaves and fishes.
Thank God (!) I've never had a client ask this question.
Cause down here, these dinners after services are usually of
the covered dish variety, wherein members of the
congregation bring food to the dinner, and would never even
think of taking a tax deduction for same.
Hmmm. reminding me now of old time dinner on the grounds out
in the country and that delicious caramel cake. (sigh
Cheer$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA
Gary Goodman
> My synagogue serves a small collation after services every
> Saturday morning. For a $75 donation, a member can sponsor
> the collation in honor of a special occasion. Members can
> donate more than that if they would like extra food to be
> served that isn't usually served. Finally, members can pay
> an outside caterer to cater the collation.
>
> It seems obvious that the $75 donation is deductible. It
> also seems that any amount donated to the synagogue over the
> $75 is probably also deductible. The question I have is,
> can the amount of money paid to an outside caterer to do the
> collation be deducted as goods and services donated to the
> synagogue?
Looks like a kosher deduction to me.
Look at the beneficiaries of the additional food. The
synagogue: Yes, even if only indirectly (Yes, people will
choose a place of worship on such shallow criteria as a
better brunch/dinner/breakfast after services.)
The donee: The extra food is really inconsequential. Think
of how a family donates books to a library. Paperback books
have the same words as the hardback, but you get to deduct
the additional cost if you donate new books.
Gary
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