what is magnetic media
removep...@yahoo.com
was just passed (http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3548/text). It
looks like starting Jan/2011, all tax returns prepared by preparers
have to be eFiled -- I guess that's what "magnetic media" means. What
is the penalty is the tax preparer does not comply? What if the
federal return cannot be eFiled? What if the client chooses to not
use eFile?
�(3) SPECIAL RULE FOR TAX RETURN PREPARERS-CommentsClose
CommentsPermalink
�(A) IN GENERAL- The Secretary shall require than any
individual income tax return prepared by a tax return preparer be
filed on magnetic media if--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink
�(i) such return is filed by such tax return
preparer, andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink
�(ii) such tax return preparer is a specified
tax return preparer for the calendar year during which such return is
filed.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink
�(B) SPECIFIED TAX RETURN PREPARER- For purposes of
this paragraph, the term �specified tax return preparer� means, with
respect to any calendar year, any tax return preparer unless such
preparer reasonably expects to file 10 or fewer individual income tax
returns during such calendar year.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink
�(C) INDIVIDUAL INCOME TAX RETURN- For purposes of
this paragraph, the term �individual income tax return� means any
return of the tax imposed by subtitle A on individuals, estates, or
trusts.�.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink
(b) Conforming Amendment- Paragraph (1) of section 6011(e) of the
Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is amended by striking �The Secretary
may not� and inserting �Except as provided in paragraph (3), the
Secretary may not�.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink
(c) Effective Date- The amendments made by this section shall apply to
returns filed after December 31, 2010.
--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
D. Stussy
news:f77abf8d-52b0-4cc9...@a37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> I was reading the unemployment and housing credit extension act that
> was just passed (http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3548/text). It
> looks like starting Jan/2011, all tax returns prepared by preparers
> have to be eFiled -- I guess that's what "magnetic media" means. What
> is the penalty is the tax preparer does not comply? What if the
> federal return cannot be eFiled? What if the client chooses to not
> use eFile?
>
>
> CommentsPermalink
>
> �(A) IN GENERAL- The Secretary shall require than any
> individual income tax return prepared by a tax return preparer be
> filed on magnetic media if--CommentsClose CommentsPermalink
>
> preparer, andCommentsClose CommentsPermalink
>
> �(ii) such tax return preparer is a specified
> tax return preparer for the calendar year during which such return is
> filed.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink
>
> this paragraph, the term �specified tax return preparer� means, with
> respect to any calendar year, any tax return preparer unless such
> preparer reasonably expects to file 10 or fewer individual income tax
> returns during such calendar year.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink
>
> this paragraph, the term �individual income tax return� means any
> return of the tax imposed by subtitle A on individuals, estates, or
>
> (b) Conforming Amendment- Paragraph (1) of section 6011(e) of the
> may not� and inserting �Except as provided in paragraph (3), the
> Secretary may not�.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink
>
> (c) Effective Date- The amendments made by this section shall apply to
> returns filed after December 31, 2010.
Magnetic media means a floppy disk (including the 3.5" hard-cased
floppies), or 9T-tape. A wire/modem transfer has no magnetic medium and is
therefore excluded. This might include the older 5.25" floppies, but
usually doesn't include the oldest 8" floppies unless it specifically says
so
If they wanted "Internet or phone" transmissions, they would have said "by
electronic means" instead of "on magnetic media."
This language actually KILLS "e-file" that we've had since 1990 (for 1989
returns in pilot program areas).
removep...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> <removeps-gro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > I was reading the unemployment and housing credit extension act that
> > was just passed (http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3548/text). �It
> > looks like starting Jan/2011, all tax returns prepared by preparers
> > have to be eFiled -- I guess that's what "magnetic media" means. �What
> > is the penalty is the tax preparer does not comply? �What if the
> > federal return cannot be eFiled? �What if the client chooses to not
> > use eFile?
>
> > � � � � � �(3) SPECIAL RULE FOR TAX RETURN PREPARERS
>
> > � � � � � � � � �(A) IN GENERAL- The Secretary shall require than any
> > individual income tax return prepared by a tax return preparer be
> > filed on magnetic media if--
>
> > � � � � � � � � � � � �(i) such return is filed by such tax return
> > preparer, and
>
> > � � � � � � � � � � � �(ii) such tax return preparer is a specified
> > tax return preparer for the calendar year during which such return is
> > filed.
> Magnetic media means a floppy disk (including the 3.5" hard-cased
> floppies), or 9T-tape. �A wire/modem transfer has no magnetic medium and is
> therefore excluded. �This might include the older 5.25" floppies, but
> usually doesn't include the oldest 8" floppies unless it specifically says
> so
This sounds ridiculous. Hardly anyone I know uses 3.5" floppies any
more. Most everything is on hard drives, and sometimes the hard drive
is on a remote computer.
> If they wanted "Internet or phone" transmissions, they would have said "by
> electronic means" instead of "on magnetic media."
>
> This language actually KILLS "e-file" that we've had since 1990 (for 1989
> returns in pilot program areas).
Why would they want to kill eFile? Isn't that what everyone pretty
much uses these days?
D. Stussy
news:f2084d1e-f23b-4b91...@t11g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 9, 8:00 pm, "D. Stussy" <spam+newsgro...@bde-arc.ampr.org>
> wrote:
> > <removeps-gro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > I was reading the unemployment and housing credit extension act that
> > > looks like starting Jan/2011, all tax returns prepared by preparers
> > > is the penalty is the tax preparer does not comply? What if the
> > > federal return cannot be eFiled? What if the client chooses to not
> > > use eFile?
> >
> > > �(3) SPECIAL RULE FOR TAX RETURN PREPARERS
> >
> > > �(A) IN GENERAL- The Secretary shall require than any
> > > individual income tax return prepared by a tax return preparer be
> > > filed on magnetic media if--
> >
> > > preparer, and
> >
> > > �(ii) such tax return preparer is a specified
> > > tax return preparer for the calendar year during which such return is
> > > filed.
>
> > Magnetic media means a floppy disk (including the 3.5" hard-cased
is
> > therefore excluded. This might include the older 5.25" floppies, but
> > usually doesn't include the oldest 8" floppies unless it specifically
says
> > so
>
> This sounds ridiculous. Hardly anyone I know uses 3.5" floppies any
> more. Most everything is on hard drives, and sometimes the hard drive
> is on a remote computer.
>
> > If they wanted "Internet or phone" transmissions, they would have said
"by
> > electronic means" instead of "on magnetic media."
> >
> > This language actually KILLS "e-file" that we've had since 1990 (for
1989
> > returns in pilot program areas).
>
> Why would they want to kill eFile? Isn't that what everyone pretty
> much uses these days?
I don't know, but you are correct that the bill actually mandates "magnetic
media." I looked up the final version that Obama signed yesterday. That
would also rule out USB flash-drives and flash-cards, as those are
silicon-based non-magnetic media. I think Congress was trying to be smart
but designated the wrong thing.
I plan on raising this issue in my tax update class in 3 weeks from
tomorrow. However, it is clear that the language used EXCLUDES electronic
wire transmission - as there is no medium storing the data, and would also
exclude CD/DVD media (since they are optical, not magnetic). I also noted
no provision for the Secretary (or his designate) to permit other types -
ONLY "magnetic media" is permitted.
There are probably some income tax returns that cannot fit on a floppy
disk. What are we supposed to do with those - send a hard drive?
LoTax
century yet? Can Congress possibly be so out of it? "Magnetic Media"
is how payroll information was required to be sent to the Social
Security Administration. In West By-God Virginia. In a previous
*millennium* yet!!!
HLunsford
> Unbelievable. UFB. Is this a hoax, a prank to see who's in the 21st
> century yet? Can Congress possibly be so out of it? "Magnetic Media"
> is how payroll information was required to be sent to the Social
> Security Administration. In West By-God Virginia. In a previous
> *millennium* yet!!!
>
It is a puzzlement, to be sure.
The inclusion of the term magnetic media was evidently by some staff
member who didn't realize that even that is not done these days.
(However I was looking in back room last week for a certain 3 1/2 inch
floppy perchance it had an old spreadsheet on it, and it did. I have
about 30 of these old floppies on hand just in case they're need per
this new bill.) (grin)
The other hangup with the language used speaks of tax preparers who file
tax returns. Now we all know that only taxpayers "file" returns, and
that certain tax preparers who are also ERO's accept client signatures
on documents which allow them to transmit returns to IRS; NOT to file them.
ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA
Dan Lanciani
I still have 9-track tape drives if anybody wants to go that route.
I can even go as low as 800bpi density for maximum backwards
compatibility...
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
D. Stussy
news:fa32bf01-8dad-4d25...@s15g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
> Unbelievable. UFB. Is this a hoax, a prank to see who's in the 21st
> century yet? Can Congress possibly be so out of it? "Magnetic Media"
> is how payroll information was required to be sent to the Social
> Security Administration. In West By-God Virginia. In a previous
> *millennium* yet!!!
Unfortunately, it's NOT. HR 3548 - now PL 111-92, section 17.
Tax year 2009 (timely filed including extensions) is the last year of
e-file.
After December 31, 2010, ALL income tax returns prepared by a preparer who
does 11+ per calendar year must be filed on magnetic media. I read this as
including PAST year [delinquent] returns and possibly amended returns as
well. There are no waivers. There is no discretion, not even by the
Secretary (or his designate).
D. Stussy
news:135...@news.IPSWITCH.COM...
...But do you have a working IBM/360 series mainframe to control the tape
drive from?
(A system 370, 3080-series, or 9370 will do just as well, and so will their
clones; e.g. Amdahl 680).
Bill Brown
In Action?
D. Stussy
"House Speaker Nancy Pelosi ... praised the tax provisions in the bill,
calling it a down-payment on the future for middle-class Americans."
Figures. Only she would call a backwards movement "the future."
However, shame on CCH for not mentioning at all the filing requirement in
their summary.
Mark Bole
> (A system 370, 3080-series, or 9370 will do just as well, and so will their
> clones; e.g. Amdahl 680).
Oooh, I worked on a 9370 for a project once! Not a commercially
successful product for IBM, as I recall...
-Mark Bole
dpb
> D. Stussy wrote:
>
>> (A system 370, 3080-series, or 9370 will do just as well, and so will
>> their
>> clones; e.g. Amdahl 680).
>
> Oooh, I worked on a 9370 for a project once! Not a commercially
> successful product for IBM, as I recall...
Or for that matter a CDC or DEC or VAX... :)
I still have the cases of several of the old Philco 2000 7-track drives
as server racks... :)
--
Dan Lanciani
In article <hdcloa$pqf$1...@snarked.org>, spam+ne...@bde-arc.ampr.org (D. Stussy) writes:
| "Dan Lanciani" <ddl@danlan.*com> wrote in message
| news:135...@news.IPSWITCH.COM...
| > In article <hdb8et$e9t$1...@snarked.org>, spam+ne...@bde-arc.ampr.org
| (D. Stussy) writes:
(snip)
| > | There are probably some income tax returns that cannot fit on a floppy
| > | disk. What are we supposed to do with those - send a hard drive?
| >
| > I still have 9-track tape drives if anybody wants to go that route.
| > I can even go as low as 800bpi density for maximum backwards
| > compatibility...
|
| ...But do you have a working IBM/360 series mainframe to control the tape
| drive from?
No, but I have other working machines to control the tape drives. N.B.
I'm not offering to do data processing for you. I will simply put your
data on the tape in whatever format (within reason--I can't do unlimited
length records easily anymore) you specify.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
D. Stussy
news:135...@news.IPSWITCH.COM...
> In article <hdcloa$pqf$1...@snarked.org>, spam+ne...@bde-arc.ampr.org
(D. Stussy) writes:
> | "Dan Lanciani" <ddl@danlan.*com> wrote in message
> | news:135...@news.IPSWITCH.COM...
> | > In article <hdb8et$e9t$1...@snarked.org>,
spam+ne...@bde-arc.ampr.org
> | (D. Stussy) writes:
>
> (snip)
>
> | > | There are probably some income tax returns that cannot fit on a
floppy
> | > | disk. What are we supposed to do with those - send a hard drive?
> | >
> | > I still have 9-track tape drives if anybody wants to go that route.
> | > I can even go as low as 800bpi density for maximum backwards
> | > compatibility...
> |
> | ...But do you have a working IBM/360 series mainframe to control the
tape
> | drive from?
>
> No, but I have other working machines to control the tape drives. N.B.
> I'm not offering to do data processing for you. I will simply put your
> data on the tape in whatever format (within reason--I can't do unlimited
> length records easily anymore) you specify.
I plan on using floppy disks. When I run out of 3.5"'s, I'll start using
5.25"'s.
paulthomascpa
"D. Stussy" <spam+ne...@bde-arc.ampr.org> wrote
> Unfortunately, it's NOT. HR 3548 - now PL 111-92, section 17.
>
> Tax year 2009 (timely filed including extensions) is the last year of
> e-file.
>
> After December 31, 2010, ALL income tax returns prepared by a preparer who
> does 11+ per calendar year must be filed on magnetic media.
Just be glad it's not applicable to information returns.
Wouldn't you hate to get all those W-2 and 1099 forms on floppies too?
And then, I take it to mean that we don't have to do this for the corporate
tax returns, 990's, 5500's. Just individual returns.
--
Paul Thomas, CPA
www.paulthomascpa.com
paulthomascpa
"HLunsford" <hlun...@bellsouth.net> wrote
> The inclusion of the term magnetic media was evidently by some staff
> member who didn't realize that even that is not done these days.
>
> (However I was looking in back room last week for a certain 3 1/2 inch
> floppy perchance it had an old spreadsheet on it, and it did. I have
> about 30 of these old floppies on hand just in case they're need per this
> new bill.) (grin)
And so....you'll auction them off? On e-Bay maybe?
And will they sell for cash or scotch?
--
Paul Thomas, CPA
www.paulthomascpa.com
--
Stuart A. Bronstein
> "LoTax" <lo...@hotmail.com> wrote
>> Unbelievable. UFB. Is this a hoax, a prank to see who's in
>> the 21st century yet? Can Congress possibly be so out of it?
>> "Magnetic Media" is how payroll information was required to be
>> sent to the Social Security Administration. In West By-God
>> Virginia. In a previous *millennium* yet!!!
>
> Unfortunately, it's NOT. HR 3548 - now PL 111-92, section 17.
>
> After December 31, 2010, ALL income tax returns prepared by a
> preparer who does 11+ per calendar year must be filed on
> magnetic media.
Actually that's a slight misreading of the statute. The final
legislation as a public law is not yet available on congress's gpo
website. But here is what appears to be the final version after
passed by Congress:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c111:5:./temp/~c111IAhMEA::
What it says, among other things, is that under certain
circumstances, "The Secretary shall require than any individual
income tax return prepared by a tax return preparer be filed on
magnetic media...."
In other words the treasury is required to promulgate regulations
concerning "electronic returns." I believe courts would uphold any
regulation that interprets "magnetic media" to mean electronically
stored data.
--
Stu
http://downtoearthlawyer.com
Chip
>
> | > | There are probably some income tax returns that cannot fit on a floppy
> | > | disk. What are we supposed to do with those - send a hard drive?
> | >
> | > I still have 9-track tape drives if anybody wants to go that route.
> | > I can even go as low as 800bpi density for maximum backwards
> | > compatibility...
> |
> | ...But do you have a working IBM/360 series mainframe to control the tape
> | drive from?
>
> No, but I have other working machines to control the tape drives. N.B.
> I'm not offering to do data processing for you. I will simply put your
> data on the tape in whatever format (within reason--I can't do unlimited
> length records easily anymore) you specify.
Do you think the IRS still has tape machines to read them?
Chip
Stuart A. Bronstein
>> No, but I have other working machines to control the tape
>> drives. N.B. I'm not offering to do data processing for you.
>> I will simply put your data on the tape in whatever format
>> (within reason--I can't do unlimited length records easily
>> anymore) you specify.
>
> Do you think the IRS still has tape machines to read them?
I've heard their computers are using 1962 technology.
--
Stu
http://downtoearthlawyer.com
D. Stussy
news:Xns9CC08F981F5DCs...@130.133.1.4...
> Chip <chip....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> No, but I have other working machines to control the tape
> >> drives. N.B. I'm not offering to do data processing for you.
> >> I will simply put your data on the tape in whatever format
> >> (within reason--I can't do unlimited length records easily
> >> anymore) you specify.
> >
> > Do you think the IRS still has tape machines to read them?
>
> I've heard their computers are using 1962 technology.
At Martinsburg, WV, and perhaps some of the former "service centers."
D. Stussy
news:HuednSGTSYEoJ2fX...@giganews.com...
> "D. Stussy" <spam+ne...@bde-arc.ampr.org> wrote
> > Unfortunately, it's NOT. HR 3548 - now PL 111-92, section 17.
> >
> > Tax year 2009 (timely filed including extensions) is the last year of
> > e-file.
> >
> > After December 31, 2010, ALL income tax returns prepared by a preparer
who
> > does 11+ per calendar year must be filed on magnetic media.
>
> Just be glad it's not applicable to information returns.
>
> Wouldn't you hate to get all those W-2 and 1099 forms on floppies too?
Why? That's how I used to send them in the 1990's. I even have one
leftover "Form 5064" - media label.
> And then, I take it to mean that we don't have to do this for the
corporate
> tax returns, 990's, 5500's. Just individual returns.
Not quite: 1041s - trusts & estates too, as well as 1040s.
D. Stussy
> "D. Stussy" <spam+ne...@bde-arc.ampr.org> wrote:
> > "LoTax" <lo...@hotmail.com> wrote
> >> Unbelievable. UFB. Is this a hoax, a prank to see who's in
> >> the 21st century yet? Can Congress possibly be so out of it?
> >> "Magnetic Media" is how payroll information was required to be
> >> sent to the Social Security Administration. In West By-God
> >> Virginia. In a previous *millennium* yet!!!
> >
> > Unfortunately, it's NOT. HR 3548 - now PL 111-92, section 17.
> >
> > After December 31, 2010, ALL income tax returns prepared by a
> > preparer who does 11+ per calendar year must be filed on
> > magnetic media.
>
> Actually that's a slight misreading of the statute. The final
> legislation as a public law is not yet available on congress's gpo
> website. But here is what appears to be the final version after
> passed by Congress:
>
> http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c111:5:./temp/~c111IAhMEA::
What I saw was the copy that Congress sent to the President for signature.
There are 6 versions in total.
> What it says, among other things, is that under certain
> circumstances, "The Secretary shall require than any individual
> income tax return prepared by a tax return preparer be filed on
> magnetic media...."
And in the following paragraphs, those circumstances are defined as a
preparer who expects to have prepared more than 10 income tax returns in a
calendar year.
> In other words the treasury is required to promulgate regulations
> concerning "electronic returns." I believe courts would uphold any
> regulation that interprets "magnetic media" to mean electronically
> stored data.
The word "electronic" does not appear in the text anywhere.
"Magnetic media" has a very specific definition. If they wanted e-file,
they would have said "by electronic means", not "on magnetic media."
paultry
>
> "Magnetic media" has a very specific definition. If they wanted e-file,
> they would have said "by electronic means", not "on magnetic media."
>
Though it may not be on point for this discussion, the
Service has previously defined magnetic media to include
electronic filing.
[4830-01-p] Published January 12, 2005
DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
Internal Revenue Service (IRS)
26 CFR Parts 1 and 301
TD 9175
RIN 1545-BE19
Returns Required on Magnetic Media
AGENCY: Internal Revenue Service (IRS), Treasury.
ACTION: Temporary regulations.
SUMMARY: This document contains temporary regulations
relating to the requirements for filing corporate income tax
returns and returns of organizations required to file
returns under section 6033 on magnetic media pursuant to
section 6011(e) of the Internal Revenue Code (Code). The
term magnetic media includes any magnetic media permitted
under applicable regulations, revenue procedures, or
publications, including electronic filing.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-regs/td_9175.pdf
Stuart A. Bronstein
>> In other words the treasury is required to promulgate
>> regulations concerning "electronic returns." I believe courts
>> would uphold any regulation that interprets "magnetic media" to
>> mean electronically stored data.
>
> The word "electronic" does not appear in the text anywhere.
It's the title of the paragraph that mandates magnetic media.
> "Magnetic media" has a very specific definition. If they wanted
> e-file, they would have said "by electronic means", not "on
> magnetic media."
I agree that it's a stupid mistake. But it's not irremediable.
--
Stu
http://downtoearthlawyer.com
Bill Brown
wrote:
> "D. Stussy" <spam+newsgro...@bde-arc.ampr.org> wrote:
> > The word "electronic" does not appear in the text anywhere.
>
> It's the title of the paragraph that mandates magnetic media.
The word "electronic" does appear in the title of the paragraph of the
law signed a couple of Friday's ago. The word "electronic" does NOT
appear in the title of IRC Section 6011. The title of subsection (e)
of Section 6011 is, "Regulations Requiring Returns on Magnetic Media,
Etc.�". Section 6011(e)(1) specifies "magnetic media or in other
machine-readable form" for filing. Section 6011(e)(3) specifies only
"magnetic media."
> I agree that it's a stupid mistake. But it's not irremediable.
Yes, it is stupid. However, since this provision goes into effect for
returns filed "after December 31, 2010" Congress is likely to conclude
they have until then to do their remediation without adversely
affecting anyone.
HLunsford
> "HLunsford" <hlun...@bellsouth.net> wrote
>> The inclusion of the term magnetic media was evidently by some staff
>> member who didn't realize that even that is not done these days.
>>
>> (However I was looking in back room last week for a certain 3 1/2 inch
>> floppy perchance it had an old spreadsheet on it, and it did. I have
>> about 30 of these old floppies on hand just in case they're need per this
>> new bill.) (grin)
>
>
>
>
> And so....you'll auction them off? On e-Bay maybe?
>
> And will they sell for cash or scotch?
>
business expenses results in taxable income, even though it might date
back to days of proprietorship.
After posting I checked further, and rememberd a few old 5 1/4 inch
diskettes upstairs, also, along with the 1978 model of Radio Shack Model
I computer (section 179 in 1978!) However it is missing one critical
piece of equipment the storage device which was a Radio Shack tape
player! Anyone remember that?
ChEAr$,
Harlan
HLunsford
> D. Stussy wrote:
>
>>
>> "Magnetic media" has a very specific definition. If they wanted e-file,
>> they would have said "by electronic means", not "on magnetic media."
>>
>
> Though it may not be on point for this discussion, the Service has
> previously defined magnetic media to include electronic filing.
>
If I read you right, you are saying that congress actually consulted IRS
before writing the bill? Zounds! (grin
ChEAr$,
Harlan
HLunsford
>
> Do you think the IRS still has tape machines to read them?
>
ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA
--
HLunsford
>
> At Martinsburg, WV, and perhaps some of the former "service centers."
>
And do you realize you just used an IRS oxymoron?
ChEAr$,
Harlan
Stuart A. Bronstein
> paultry wrote:
>> D. Stussy wrote:
>>>
>>> "Magnetic media" has a very specific definition. If they
>>> wanted e-file, they would have said "by electronic means", not
>>> "on magnetic media."
>>
>> Though it may not be on point for this discussion, the Service
>> has previously defined magnetic media to include electronic
>> filing.
>
> consulted IRS before writing the bill? Zounds! (grin
More likely the IRS anticipated the stupidity that Congress wrought.
--
Stu
http://downtoearthlawyer.com
Stuart A. Bronstein
> After posting I checked further, and rememberd a few old 5 1/4
> inch diskettes upstairs, also, along with the 1978 model of
> Radio Shack Model I computer (section 179 in 1978!) However
> it is missing one critical piece of equipment the storage device
> which was a Radio Shack tape player! Anyone remember that?
I had a Radio Shack movel 3 in 1980 or '81. There was no tape
player, though - it had two floppy drives for 5 1/4 disks. It had a
whole 48k of RAM.
--
Stu
http://downtoearthlawyer.com
D. Stussy
news:dbf4770a-b811-4d6c...@k9g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 12, 10:26 am, "Stuart A. Bronstein" <spamt...@lexregia.com>
> wrote:
> > "D. Stussy" <spam+newsgro...@bde-arc.ampr.org> wrote:
> > > The word "electronic" does not appear in the text anywhere.
> >
> > It's the title of the paragraph that mandates magnetic media.
>
> The word "electronic" does appear in the title of the paragraph of the
> law signed a couple of Friday's ago. The word "electronic" does NOT
> appear in the title of IRC Section 6011. The title of subsection (e)
> of Section 6011 is, "Regulations Requiring Returns on Magnetic Media,
> machine-readable form" for filing. Section 6011(e)(3) specifies only
> "magnetic media."
That's why I said it does not appear in the TEXT of the section. Section
titles are not statutes.
> > I agree that it's a stupid mistake. But it's not irremediable.
>
> Yes, it is stupid. However, since this provision goes into effect for
> returns filed "after December 31, 2010" Congress is likely to conclude
> they have until then to do their remediation without adversely
> affecting anyone.
I'd still like to see someone walk into an IRS office with a box full of
floppy disks attempting to "file" them, and see what the IRS CSRs do when
they challenge that and are presented with the statute as it's written now.
Y
>
> After posting I checked further, and rememberd a few old 5 1/4 inch
> diskettes upstairs, also, along with the 1978 model of Radio Shack
> Model I computer (section 179 in 1978!) However it is missing one
> critical piece of equipment the storage device which was a Radio
> Shack tape player! Anyone remember that?
>
> ChEAr$,
> Harlan
I used to have the Radio Shack TRS-80 ["trash-80"] from 1978. The base
model came with 4K of memory, and used BASIC. I upgraded it to 16K of
memory, for several hundred dollars! It had a black and yellow 12 inch
screen and 'programs' were on the cassette tape player (no discs, hard
or soft). A few years ago I tried and couldn't even give it away to
the local Radio Shack stores for 'advertising' in their windows, and it
went the way of all computer flesh.
old guy
--
Stuart A. Bronstein
> That's why I said it does not appear in the TEXT of the section.
> Section titles are not statutes.
No, but they can be used to devine the intent of Congress.
> I'd still like to see someone walk into an IRS office with a box
> full of floppy disks attempting to "file" them, and see what the
> IRS CSRs do when they challenge that and are presented with the
> statute as it's written now.
Well, he'd better do so in compliance with treasury regs. Remember
the statute does not itself require either magnetic or electronic
filing. It mandates the treasury to issue regulations to required
it.
--
Stu
http://downtoearthlawyer.com
bill...@weacca.com
wrote:
> Magnetic media means a floppy disk (including the 3.5" hard-cased
> floppies), or 9T-tape. �A wire/modem transfer has no magnetic medium and is
> therefore excluded. �This might include the older 5.25" floppies, but
> usually doesn't include the oldest 8" floppies unless it specifically says
> so
>
> If they wanted "Internet or phone" transmissions, they would have said "by
> electronic means" instead of "on magnetic media."
>
> This language actually KILLS "e-file" that we've had since 1990 (for 1989
> returns in pilot program areas).
>
But there's been (for about 10 years IIRC) a similar requirement for
large partnerships in IRC 6011(e) paragraph 2, and that doesn't seem
to have prevented e-filing in these cases. The applicable
regulations seem to be Treasury Regulations, Subchapter F, Sec.
301.6011-3 which in paragraph d(1) define magnetic media as follows
"Magnetic media. The term magnetic media means any magnetic media
permitted under applicable regulations, revenue procedures, or
publications. These generally include magnetic tape, tape cartridge,
and diskette, as well as other media (such as electronic filing)
specifically permitted under the applicable regulations, procedures,
or publications." It's hard to imagine that the IRS will interpret
this new amendment any differently.
In light of this (together with what appears to heve been the
congress's intent), I'd suspect that the courts (if asked) would read
the refernce to magnetic media in paragraph 2 & (the new) paragraph 3
as shorthand for the "magnetic media or in other machine-readable
form" of paragraph 1.
It seems to me that the intent here is to _significantly_ broaden the
IRS's ability to require non-papaer returns. [previously, the
secretary couldn't ever require them for returns for individuals,
estates or trusts. Nor was he allowed to require anyone filing fewer
than 250 returns per year to file on magnetic media].
Will.
Mark Bole
> Chip <chip....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> No, but I have other working machines to control the tape
>>> drives. N.B. I'm not offering to do data processing for you.
>>> I will simply put your data on the tape in whatever format
>>> (within reason--I can't do unlimited length records easily
>>> anymore) you specify.
>> Do you think the IRS still has tape machines to read them?
>
> I've heard their computers are using 1962 technology.
>
I read they're now supporting XML for "modernized e-filing" file format;
that's a somewhat recent technology ;-)
-Mark Bole
Mark Bole
> After posting I checked further, and rememberd a few old 5 1/4 inch
> diskettes upstairs, also, along with the 1978 model of Radio Shack Model
> I computer (section 179 in 1978!) However it is missing one critical
> piece of equipment the storage device which was a Radio Shack tape
> player! Anyone remember that?
Among several around the country, one mature museum dedicated to old
computing technology is in Silicon Valley, I enjoyed a visit some 3 or 4
years ago:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/26/technology/circuits/26muse.html?pagewanted=1
(sorry Harlan if there is a problem with the NY Times...)
Now we just need a Museum of Tax History (one beyond this newsgroup,
that is).
-Mark Bole
D. Stussy
news:6717b7b3-24bc-48d3...@g10g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
TR noted, but 6011(e)(1) says "... filed on magnetic media or in other
machine-readable form." The Secretary is well within his authority to
define the "other machine-readable form[s]."
However, this added (e)(3) did NOT say "or other machine-readable form"
and it's not clear from the statute that these other forms are inclusive
therein of the term "magnetic media." It appears that in (e)(1), they are
an alternative, not an inclusion; an alternative that has NOT been extended
to (e)(3).
Stuart A. Bronstein
> TR noted, but 6011(e)(1) says "... filed on magnetic media or in
> other machine-readable form." The Secretary is well within his
> authority to define the "other machine-readable form[s]."
>
> However, this added (e)(3) did NOT say "or other
> machine-readable form" and it's not clear from the statute that
> these other forms are inclusive therein of the term "magnetic
> media." It appears that in (e)(1), they are an alternative, not
> an inclusion; an alternative that has NOT been extended to
> (e)(3).
Seems to me that the way it's used in �6011(e)(2), it is being used
as shorthand for �magnetic media, etc.,� which is the heading of the
subsection.
On the other hand the term is also used alone in �6724, though it
refers to �6011(e)(2) but not (e)(1).
--
Stu
http://downtoearthlawyer.com
Taxmanhog
>>> Do you think the IRS still has tape machines to read them?
>> Stuart A. Bronstein wrote:
>> I've heard their computers are using 1962 technology.
>"Mark Bole" wrote...
> I read they're now supporting XML for "modernized e-filing" file format;
> that's a somewhat recent technology ;-)
> -Mark Bole
Yer all correct, the service has the ability to read in data in a variety of
formats, in the end downwardly formating it to be assimulated into the
1960's error Business & Individual master files, which ~some day~ will be
retired when CADE fully takes over all operations, currently it runs in
tandem with the old technology.