Military Helicopter Sightings around Casper, Wyoming
Michael P. O'Brien
WYOMING
Purpose: The purpose of this paper is to describe eyewitness accounts of unidentified aircraft
sightings and military operations in and around Natrona County Wyoming.
Sightings of "Black" military appearing helicopters have been occurring in and around Natrona
County Wyoming since early 1993. In 1994 a black military type helicopter was photographed on the
ramp in front of the Casper Air Service hanger at the Natrona County Airport. The helicopter is
devoid of all markings except a tail number of 550. A total of eleven helicopters were parked on the
ramp at the time the photograph was taken. The photographer reports that a guard dressed in black
BDUs, (Battle Dress Uniform), was present with the helicopters. The guard's uniform bore no
insignia or markings of any kind. The guard requested that the photographer not take pictures of the
helicopters but did not offer any physical resistance when the photographer persisted.
In January 1995 a private pilot and his passenger, in a Cessna 172, noticed a black helicopter landing
behind a small knoll northwest of Casper, WY. The helicopter discharged four armed men dressed in
what appeared to be black fatigues. The men assaulted the knoll with what appeared to be automatic
weapons. Upon returning to the Natrona County Airport, the private pilot and his passenger reported
their observations to the Wyoming Army National Guard. The National Guard denied any knowledge
of the black helicopter or black clad men and stated that they had no training operations in the area.
On November 13, 1995 at approximately 2300 hours, four helicopters overflew a ranch house, in west
central Converse County, at an elevation of approximately 100 feet. The noise of the helicopters
roused the occupants of the house, husband and wife. They rushed out of their bedroom onto the deck
to observe four large helicopters fly over their house, barn, and coral. The helicopters were low
enough to blow cedar shakes from the roof of their house. The commotion of wind and noise spooked
the horses in the coral causing them to run into the coral fence. The husband immediately called the
FAA at the Natrona County Airport. The FAA reported they had one unidentified aircraft on radar
and that it would not respond to radio calls for identification. The occupants of the house reported that
only one helicopter had any visible navigation lights. This incident was reported to the Wyoming
National Guard. On November 29, 1995, Capt. John M. Scorsine, Plans, Operations and Military
Support Officer of the Wyoming National Guard responded that the helicopters were not part of any
Wyoming Nation Guard operation and that all his efforts to determine the source of the helicopters and
their mission met with negative results.
On February 7, 1996, seven citizen observers stationed themselves on a hilltop approximately seven
miles southeast of Casper, WY. Beginning at approximately 1915 hours, six aircraft were observed
flying over the Muddy mountain range in close formation. The aircraft were identifiable via white
flashing strobe lights. The aircraft were observed with naked eyes, binoculars, and night vision
glasses. One aircraft flew over the group of observers and is described as follows: "It was not an
airplane. It had no wings. It had about five or six lights up front and two or three in the rear of the
object, could not hear anything. There were forty to sixty-mile per hour winds."
Many citizens have observed similar sightings, (a total of 58 sightings), from May 1995 to today. All
attempts at identifying these aircraft and their purpose via local, state, and federal government
channels have failed. We are asking anyone with any information or other sightings to contact us via
E-mail at "at...@coffey.com" or to post notices on this bulletin board
John
> MILITARY HELICOPTER OPERATIONS IN AND AROUND NATRONA COUNTY
> WYOMING
>
>Purpose: The purpose of this paper is to describe eyewitness accounts of unidentified aircraft
>sightings and military operations in and around Natrona County Wyoming.
>
>Sightings of "Black" military appearing helicopters have been occurring in and around Natrona
>County Wyoming since early 1993. In 1994 a black military type helicopter was photographed on the
>ramp in front of the Casper Air Service hanger at the Natrona County Airport. The helicopter is
>devoid of all markings except a tail number of 550. A total of eleven helicopters were parked on the
>ramp at the time the photograph was taken. The photographer reports that a guard dressed in black
>BDUs, (Battle Dress Uniform), was present with the helicopters. The guard's uniform bore no
>insignia or markings of any kind. The guard requested that the photographer not take pictures of the
>helicopters but did not offer any physical resistance when the photographer persisted.
Such vehicles have been viewed operating out of Moffet Naval Air Station
in Mountain View California.
I am attempting to aquire photographs of them at this time.
Allegedly one such helicopter was shot down in the Santa Cruz Mountains
sometime last summer. I am attempting to validate that story at the
present time, unfortunately the only person who will admit to the story
being true will not go on the record, or even go as far as to give a
date, time, or location.
The story goes that some alleged marajuana growers were spooked by this
helicopter, and believeing it to be a CAMP chopper, opened fire on it
with a BAR and to the story teller an unknown .308 caliber semi-automatic
rifle.
The only thing I've managed to locate in the media that remotely
resembles this story is the account of a CAMP chopper crashing in the
Carmel Valley when it lost power and clipped some trees auto-rotating in.
Good luck, and I'll forwad stuff on when I find it.
John
Mark Thomen
>"Michael P. O'Brien" <at...@coffey.com> wrote:
>Such vehicles have been viewed operating out of Moffet Naval Air Station
>in Mountain View California.
Moffett NAS has been the home base for the 314th MedEvac unit for
a couple of years now, as well as the 124th ARCOM Aviation section.
The "black helicopters" are Hueys (-H and -V models) with the
STANDARD U.S. ARMY IR-SUPPRESSIVE PAINT scheme.
Read the previous sentence again; these "black helicopters" are simply
regular U.S. Army issue using the standard IR paint scheme. Sheesh,
what do you THINK they are...
>
>I am attempting to aquire photographs of them at this time.
Might be hard, they're shutting down operations there and their
assets are being transferred to Los Alamitos and Seattle. If you'd
like pictures, just drive on post, over to the large NE hangar next to the
golf course, and walk in. I'm sure they'd be happy to let you walk
around and take pictures...
>
>Allegedly one such helicopter was shot down in the Santa Cruz Mountains
>sometime last summer. I am attempting to validate that story at the
>present time, unfortunately the only person who will admit to the story
>being true will not go on the record, or even go as far as to give a
>date, time, or location.
>
>The story goes that some alleged marajuana growers were spooked by this
>helicopter, and believeing it to be a CAMP chopper, opened fire on it
>with a BAR and to the story teller an unknown .308 caliber semi-automatic
>rifle.
>
>The only thing I've managed to locate in the media that remotely
>resembles this story is the account of a CAMP chopper crashing in the
>Carmel Valley when it lost power and clipped some trees auto-rotating in.
That's probably what REALLY happened; urban myth and the local
conspiracy experts have probably inflated it into an exciting account of
a shoot-down of a "black helicopter." Not likely...
Mark
John
>a couple of years now, as well as the 124th ARCOM Aviation section.
>The "black helicopters" are Hueys (-H and -V models) with the
>STANDARD U.S. ARMY IR-SUPPRESSIVE PAINT scheme.
>
>Read the previous sentence again; these "black helicopters" are simply
>regular U.S. Army issue using the standard IR paint scheme. Sheesh,
>what do you THINK they are...
Heya Mark thanks for the reply,
I am curious why IR suppresive paint would be BLACK? Black seems to
absorb heat, and thus retain it, which would seem to make the IR
signature greater. If I am in error, please explain why.
>Might be hard, they're shutting down operations there and their
>assets are being transferred to Los Alamitos and Seattle. If you'd
>like pictures, just drive on post, over to the large NE hangar next to the
>golf course, and walk in. I'm sure they'd be happy to let you walk
>around and take pictures...
>
Uh, I don't know about that. The last time I was on base, I still had to
sign in at the visitor's center which is to the right of the main gate.
I still had to have a verified appointment, and an on-base sponsor. That
was about 4 months ago when I went out there to repair some CCTV
equipment.
>>The only thing I've managed to locate in the media that remotely
>>resembles this story is the account of a CAMP chopper crashing in the
>>Carmel Valley when it lost power and clipped some trees auto-rotating in.
>
>That's probably what REALLY happened; urban myth and the local
>conspiracy experts have probably inflated it into an exciting account of
>a shoot-down of a "black helicopter." Not likely...
>
At this point in time, I am in agreement with you. I can't find anything,
nor can I find anyone else who will corroborate the story about one of
these black helicopters being shot down.
Listen, Mark
I'm not trying to propogate half truths or scare stories. I am genuinely
interested in alot of the unusual and even incredible events that are
apparently unfolding around us. The Black Helicopter Phenomenae extends
from alleged New World Order operations into the UFO and UFO Abductee
realms. I REALLY want to ferret out what is behind the stories. That's
why I told of what I had been able to find out by my own efforts (Carmel
Valley Crash).
I hear and get stories about disappearances of gov't foes all the way up
to gates that rise up out of major roadways to block traffic. I've looked
into the stories of hidden codings on the backs of roadsigns. Alot of
this stuff is the products of VERY fertile imaginations. Some of it is
not, one such is the use of Lithium Chloride in the water supply of a
MAJOR metro area here in Northern California. This has been verified by
independant laboratory testing. The amount present does not appear to be
in quantitites large enough to be considered a medical dosage, but
continued and repeated exposure?
I'm an electronics tech, I know my phone was taped for a period of time.
I've been followed, and my home has been broken into and yet nothing was
apparently stolen and very little evidence of entry being made was left
behind.
I have to ask why, and who is doing it..
John
Brian Costello
>
> I'm an electronics tech, I know my phone was taped for a period of time.
> I've been followed, and my home has been broken into and yet nothing was
> apparently stolen and very little evidence of entry being made was left
> behind.
>
> I have to ask why, and who is doing it..
>
> John
Just because your paranoid, doesen't mean they're not watching.
--
Brian Costello br...@datatamers.com
Al Durtschi
helicopters' (Chinooks) for years. I don't know what exactly
is happening in Casper, but I can tell you I've been to a lot
of places. Most of the time they are training missons.
Pilots must keep up their currency. Usually they can go
about where they want on a training mission, explaining
partially why they can show up in so many off the wall
places. Looking back on it, I wonder how many of those
people we were buzzing at tree top level out in the middle of
no where thought we were up to something sinister, when in
fact we were just goofing off? Before I get flamed to death
for the low flying comment, let me say the US Army isn't
suposed to do that any more.
Al Durtschi
Mark Stoddard
Just to throw my .02 cents in, when did the Army stop flying low? Back in March or April of last
year, I had two instances (both within 2-3 weeks of each other) of choppers "buzzing" my house,
which is smack in the middle of a suburban housing development in a bedroom community 10 or 20
miles north of Dallas, Texas.
Both sightings occurred in the early evening between 7:00 and 7:45 pm. The first instance was a
UH1-? which passed over at an altitude of no more than 200 feet and at a high rate of speed (for
a Huey). The machine was "slick" with cargo doors closed. It wasn't black, but dark OD Green.
And, of course, there were no visible markings (but given the hour of day, and the angle at which
I observed the aircraft relative to the position of the setting sun, I'm not surprised).
The second occurrance involved two UH-60 Blackhawks flying in echelon left formation. Little
slower speed, slightly higher altitude. Both machines had what looked like a single small radome
on the nose of each, otherwise they were as plain as the Huey. The formation passed slightly
south of the house on a heading almost EXACTLY the reverse of the Huey in the first occurrance.
Now it's one thing to practice flying in the weeds out in the boonies where if the pilot makes a
mistake or the aircraft has a sudden massive problem the thing's going to auger in where no one
(outside of the aircrew) gets hurt, but These sightings occurred in the MIDDLE of a large area of
rather densly packed single family homes. Anyone care to comment?
Cheers,
Mark
Mark Thomen
>(Al's comments snipped)
>
>Just to throw my .02 cents in, when did the Army stop flying low? Back in March or April of last
>year, I had two instances (both within 2-3 weeks of each other) of choppers "buzzing" my house,
>which is smack in the middle of a suburban housing development in a bedroom community 10 or 20
>miles north of Dallas, Texas.
>
>Both sightings occurred in the early evening between 7:00 and 7:45 pm. The first instance was a
>UH1-? which passed over at an altitude of no more than 200 feet and at a high rate of speed (for
>a Huey).
What is a "high rate of speed for a Huey?" And can you explain what technique
you used to estimate the altitude as "no more than 200 feet?" You didn't indicate
if you might be located close to any reserve units (we frequently ferried personnel
into the parking lots of reserve units), or hospitals (where we also made emergency
flights).
Assuming your altitude estimate was correct, the safest minimum airspeed (according
to my H-V chart) is 50 kts (roof-mounted pitot tube, 43 kts nose-mounted). Faster
airspeeds are safer in the event of an engine failure - I'd sure rather be doing 80 kts
than 50 if the chip detect light came on.
> The machine was "slick" with cargo doors closed. It wasn't black, but dark OD Green.
>And, of course, there were no visible markings (but given the hour of day, and the angle at which
>I observed the aircraft relative to the position of the setting sun, I'm not surprised).
The markings are painted in black (combat paint scheme) which leaves so little
contrast they're very hard to see against the IR suppressive paint - especially
after the tail boom gets coated with soot from the exhaust.
>
>(Snipped)
>
>Now it's one thing to practice flying in the weeds out in the boonies where if the pilot makes a
>mistake or the aircraft has a sudden massive problem the thing's going to auger in where no one
>(outside of the aircrew) gets hurt, but These sightings occurred in the MIDDLE of a large area of
>rather densly packed single family homes. Anyone care to comment?
Sure, I'll comment... Choppers don't "auger in" unless there is a really catastrophic
failure (slung blade, seized transmission, etc - which are almost unheard of).
If they had this type of failure over a populated area it doesn't matter HOW high
or fast they're going.
For any other type of failure, an autorotation will allow them to land in someone's
front or backyard, on a normal street, etc, with minimal to no damage - at least
to anything on the ground (the aircraft may suffer some).
And what you described is far from "flying in the weeds" - it sounds more like
contour flight - NOE (Nap-of-Earth) flying is TRULY flying in the weeds; more than
once during training did we have to pick things out of the skid shoes...
Mark
Mark Stoddard
> What is a "high rate of speed for a Huey?" And can you explain what technique
> you used to estimate the altitude as "no more than 200 feet?" You didn't indicate
> if you might be located close to any reserve units (we frequently ferried personnel
> into the parking lots of reserve units), or hospitals (where we also made emergency
> flights).
According to the AirForceLink Fact Sheet on the HH-1H Iroquois (closest variant I could find on
short notice) the top speed for the bird is 116 kts (133 mph). I'd say somewhere between your
estimated speeds of 50 - 80 kts.
As for the altitude estimate, I used the "Mk 1 eyeball," based on comparison to known objects in
the area (single and two story homes, trees, light poles, etc.) and from hanging out at more
airshows than I care to admit to over the years.
There are no reserve units within 5-10 miles of my location to my knowledge. The closest civil
avation facility is the municiple airport in Mckinney which is approx. 5-8 miles to the north of
me, which has a single N-S runway. My sightings were going approx. 120 degrees mag. in the first
instance and 285 degrees in the second (yes, I was able to get a compass bearing within a few
minutes of each occurrance).
Let me say that there is a lot of aviation activity in my area. I like to watch airplanes. I
can ID some aircraft from inside the house by the sound alone (ask my wife). These guys were
lower than any other aircraft I've seen in recent memory that weren't showing off for the folks
at a local airshow, and that includes air ambulances and the police!
> Assuming your altitude estimate was correct, the safest minimum airspeed (according
> to my H-V chart) is 50 kts (roof-mounted pitot tube, 43 kts nose-mounted). Faster
> airspeeds are safer in the event of an engine failure - I'd sure rather be doing 80 kts
> than 50 if the chip detect light came on.
Granted.
> The markings are painted in black (combat paint scheme) which leaves so little
> contrast they're very hard to see against the IR suppressive paint - especially
> after the tail boom gets coated with soot from the exhaust.
I'll assume that last was for the benefit of those unfamiliar with military aircraft markings.
I'm not going to include myself in that category.
> Sure, I'll comment... Choppers don't "auger in" unless there is a really catastrophic
> failure (slung blade, seized transmission, etc - which are almost unheard of).
> If they had this type of failure over a populated area it doesn't matter HOW high
> or fast they're going.
>
> For any other type of failure, an autorotation will allow them to land in someone's
> front or backyard, on a normal street, etc, with minimal to no damage - at least
> to anything on the ground (the aircraft may suffer some).
The houses in my part of the world are packed so tightly together I could barely park my car in
the back yard without hitting the house. And I paid extra to get a larger lot! It would have to
be a miracle for you to pick out a safe spot to land. Besides, don't you need some more altitude
(1,000 feet +) to have a enough time to pick your spot when you autorotate?
> And what you described is far from "flying in the weeds" - it sounds more like
> contour flight - NOE (Nap-of-Earth) flying is TRULY flying in the weeds; more than
> once during training did we have to pick things out of the skid shoes...
OK, I'll bite...what DID you fly? If I'm going to argue with someone, I might as well know what
I'm up against :-)
Cheers,
Mark
Edward Lawrence
Dallas area from 1967 until mid 1994. I got my pilots licence in 1972, and
have 600+ hours logged. I am also an Amateur Radio Operator, and have NEVER
seen a 'black helicopter' and have never known anyone who complained about one
in the Dallas or North Texas area.
ALL aircraft naturally look black if the sun is behind them. Most
aircraft look black if viewed from a distance, unless well illuminated by
direct
sunlight from above.
For one, I don't plan to be prepared to take on the whole U.S. (or other)
Military. To prepare for such a futile defense would be to divert my attention
to the much more productive efforts of planning for more probable events.
Just my opinion.
Mark Stoddard
Ed:
I think you were probably referring to my earier post. Let me clarify that I never said they
were *black* helicopters. They were your standard, everyday, run-of-the-mill OD green UH-1 and
UH-60 machines and I assume they were owned by the Army.
The point of my post was the altitude at which they flew over my neighborhood. Are you familiar
with Allen, Texas and the Bethany/Jupiter Roads area? That's where I live. In the almost 3
years I've been there, I've seen *lots* of activity overhead. Everything from the big civil
and military traffic heading into and out of Dallas Love Field and D/FW Intl. down to the hot air
balloons that drift overhead in spring and fall. That also includes the small single and twin
engine traffic from Mckinney Airport and the Army Natl. Guard CH47s and Marine Sea Stallions that
frequent the area on training flights out of NAS Dallas.
All, and that includes the friggin' BALLOONS, were higher than these choppers that overflew the
homestead last year. I never said the dreaded "C" word, or anything similar. I am concerned
that they have never flown that low before over populated areas in the Dallas area to my
knowledge, and you can read that as a *safety* concern and nothing more.
Mark
Edward Lawrence
Yes, I am very familiar with the Allen, TX area. I lived at the trailer
court at Spring Creek for a couple of years.
I also had trouble with the baloonists 'dragging' across my place on
Saturday mornings, VERY early in the morning. As I had helped launch some on
occasion, I whispered into a few appropriate ears that I would damn well shoot
holes in the next fool that came across so low that they set off all the dogs
in the area. I was promptly told that this would be illegal, and I just as
promptly told them that I would still shoot. The baloon overflights promptly
ceased. Naturally, as a pilot myself, I knew that it is illegal to shoot at
them, but I counted on their instinct for self-preservation to cause them to
change their unnecessary tactics. I certainly did enjoy sleeping late on
Saturday mornings after that! Look up Mike and Sky Hoering(spelling), who are
both members of the Plano Amateur Radio Club, or perhaps Eddie Hill, in Plano.
Mike and Sky live there in Allen.
judge dread
>
> I lived in Plano, TX ans Sherman, TX, and various places in the North
> Dallas area from 1967 until mid 1994. I got my pilots licence in 1972, and
> have 600+ hours logged. I am also an Amateur Radio Operator, and have NEVER
> seen a 'black helicopter' and have never known anyone who complained about one
> in the Dallas or North Texas area.
> ALL aircraft naturally look black if the sun is behind them. Most
> aircraft look black if viewed from a distance, unless well illuminated by
> direct
> sunlight from above.
> For one, I don't plan to be prepared to take on the whole U.S. (or other)
> Military. To prepare for such a futile defense would be to divert my attention
> to the much more productive efforts of planning for more probable events.
>
> Just my opinion.
was convicted of plotting to blow up the UN,and other New York land
marks. If you find the tape you will see him being unloaded from a
black helicopter, a blackhawk. Also I live in the Flathead Valley
of northwestern Montana. About one week after April 19/95 on a
Saturday two black, blackhawk helicopters flew right down the middle
of the valley.In the paper the next day was a story about a number
of people who called the sheriff's office to ask what was going on.
According to the story the birds were on their way to Alaska and
were flying to a nearby airport,Glacier International,to refuel and
get weather info.Also mention in the story was a quote by a military
type that they weren't black they were a very dark grey. Newspaper
is the Daily Interlake Kalispell Mt. If you really want to know you
can take it from there.I could care less who believes what about
them.But there are some very grey helicopter with very few markings.
What there for or do I don't pretend to know but they are there.
judge dread
Mark Thomen
>According to the AirForceLink Fact Sheet on the HH-1H Iroquois (closest variant I could find on
>short notice) the top speed for the bird is 116 kts (133 mph). I'd say somewhere between your
>estimated speeds of 50 - 80 kts.
Just wondered; I've never heard ANYONE use the term "high rate of speed" in
the same sentence as "Huey." Normal cruise is usually around 85-95 kts.
>
>As for the altitude estimate, I used the "Mk 1 eyeball," based on comparison to known objects in
>the area (single and two story homes, trees, light poles, etc.) and from hanging out at more
>airshows than I care to admit to over the years.
I won't quibble with your estimate, although altitude estimates are notoriously
bad - even by experienced pilots. However, realize that helicopters have
different rules for minimum altitudes based on their unique abilities. So while
an airplane flying at 200 agl would not only be unsafe (and, violating the
regs), that is not necessarily a problem for helicopters. SOP (aka COURTESY)
says that we never flew the Huey in a way that would create unnecessary
complaints (i.e. noise).
>
>> Assuming your altitude estimate was correct, the safest minimum airspeed (according
>> to my H-V chart) is 50 kts (roof-mounted pitot tube, 43 kts nose-mounted). Faster
>> airspeeds are safer in the event of an engine failure - I'd sure rather be doing 80 kts
>> than 50 if the chip detect light came on.
>
>Granted.
>
>> The markings are painted in black (combat paint scheme) which leaves so little
>> contrast they're very hard to see against the IR suppressive paint - especially
>> after the tail boom gets coated with soot from the exhaust.
>
>I'll assume that last was for the benefit of those unfamiliar with military aircraft markings.
>I'm not going to include myself in that category.
I felt it important to mention, since some people on here tend to associate evil,
wicked, mean, and nasty with "Black helicopters" (as opposed to any other color).
>
>> Sure, I'll comment... Choppers don't "auger in" unless there is a really catastrophic
>> failure (slung blade, seized transmission, etc - which are almost unheard of).
>> If they had this type of failure over a populated area it doesn't matter HOW high
>> or fast they're going.
>>
>> For any other type of failure, an autorotation will allow them to land in someone's
>> front or backyard, on a normal street, etc, with minimal to no damage - at least
>> to anything on the ground (the aircraft may suffer some).
>
>The houses in my part of the world are packed so tightly together I could barely park my car in
>the back yard without hitting the house. And I paid extra to get a larger lot! It would have to
>be a miracle for you to pick out a safe spot to land. Besides, don't you need some more altitude
> (1,000 feet +) to have a enough time to pick your spot when you autorotate?
Note I did qualify it by saying that the aircraft will probably suffer some damage.
But it'll fit in a city street easily; most front yards, and a lot of driveways. Even
less if you don't care about trashing the blades or tail boom.
>
>> And what you described is far from "flying in the weeds" - it sounds more like
>> contour flight - NOE (Nap-of-Earth) flying is TRULY flying in the weeds; more than
>> once during training did we have to pick things out of the skid shoes...
>
>OK, I'll bite...what DID you fly? If I'm going to argue with someone, I might as well know what
>I'm up against :-)
Take a guess...
The point of my post was more to illustrate that the behavior you saw was
not necessarily unsafe, or even out of the ordinary for military choppers (at
least in the Army; the Navy thinks we're crazy for flying that low). It may
have been unneighborly though, and I assure you the military is VERY careful
about trying not to alienate the public...
Mark
Mark Stoddard
>
> Hello, Mark.
> Yes, I am very familiar with the Allen, TX area. I lived at the trailer
> court at Spring Creek for a couple of years.
If you're talking about the park on the east side of I-75 just south of Spring Creek, I drive
past it every day. Turns out my wife's sister and her husband lived there years ago when they
were first married. The whole area is is becoming *very* (over)developed, but that palce hangs
on still.
I printed out your post with the contacts on it. I've been thinking about getting involved with
amateur radio the past year or so. I may look them up.
I don't have any problems with the balloonists. I hear the burners going off as they float
overhead, but it's a far-off kinda sound. It's about the only relatively quiet seeming thing in
the skies these days. But then I don't have a dog in the back yard either ;-)
Mark Stoddard
>
> Just wondered; I've never heard ANYONE use the term "high rate of speed" in
> the same sentence as "Huey." Normal cruise is usually around 85-95 kts.
Alright, I might have been a bit facetious when I used the term, but you got to admit, 85 -90
knots to a person on the ground as it flies overhead is *fast.*
> >
> >As for the altitude estimate, I used the "Mk 1 eyeball," based on comparison to known objects in
> >the area (single and two story homes, trees, light poles, etc.) and from hanging out at more
> >airshows than I care to admit to over the years.
>
> I won't quibble with your estimate, although altitude estimates are notoriously
> bad - even by experienced pilots. However, realize that helicopters have
> different rules for minimum altitudes based on their unique abilities. So while
> an airplane flying at 200 agl would not only be unsafe (and, violating the
> regs), that is not necessarily a problem for helicopters. SOP (aka COURTESY)
> says that we never flew the Huey in a way that would create unnecessary
> complaints (i.e. noise).
I'll go a step further; if I held my fist out at arm's length, as the machine passed just to the
south of me, it's fuselage might have been a little longer than two "fist widths."
(much snippage)
> >OK, I'll bite...what DID you fly? If I'm going to argue with someone, I might as well know what
> >I'm up against :-)
>
> Take a guess...
"Slicks" or "Snakes?"
> The point of my post was more to illustrate that the behavior you saw was
> not necessarily unsafe, or even out of the ordinary for military choppers (at
> least in the Army; the Navy thinks we're crazy for flying that low). It may
> have been unneighborly though, and I assure you the military is VERY careful
> about trying not to alienate the public...
Let me digress for minute. I am an airplane buff. Particularly military aircraft. One of my
fantasies is to be in the front seat of an Apache or some other "tank buster" while the pilot is
tring to dodge trees and other assorted obstacles. I'd rather do that than ride any roller
coaster you could think of. In fact, I almost joined the Army out of high school so I could do
the WO program and fly helicopters, but that was in the early seventies and I found out that they
were shutting down Fort Wolters because we were getting out of Vietnam and there was a bit of a
"surplus supply" of what I wanted to become.
My point (and I think I still have one) is this: I think I'm on your side, but I just get a bit
"twitchy" when I start hearing stories about training excercises in other parts of the country
involving low-level flight in areas that had never seen such activity before (i.e. populated
urban areas), and then *my* house gets "visted" twice in one month. Don't you think I have a
legitimate right to be curious?
Cheers,
Mark
Mark Thomen
>> I won't quibble with your estimate, although altitude estimates are notoriously
>> bad - even by experienced pilots. However, realize that helicopters have
>> different rules for minimum altitudes based on their unique abilities. So while
>> an airplane flying at 200 agl would not only be unsafe (and, violating the
>> regs), that is not necessarily a problem for helicopters. SOP (aka COURTESY)
>> says that we never flew the Huey in a way that would create unnecessary
>> complaints (i.e. noise).
>
>I'll go a step further; if I held my fist out at arm's length, as the machine passed just to the
>south of me, it's fuselage might have been a little longer than two "fist widths."
Using 180 mils per fist width, that would put them roughly 20 yards away...
>"Slicks" or "Snakes?"
The former...
>My point (and I think I still have one) is this: I think I'm on your side, but I just get a bit
>"twitchy" when I start hearing stories about training excercises in other parts of the country
>involving low-level flight in areas that had never seen such activity before (i.e. populated
>urban areas), and then *my* house gets "visted" twice in one month. Don't you think I have a
>legitimate right to be curious?
Absolutely; but what you experienced may not have been "training exercises", but
rather simply a pilot that took a shortcut never used before - maybe because the
area was generally recommended against being crossed, but not prohibitted.
As I said, most of the flight facilities emphasize not antagonizing neighbors or
the public because they don't need the hassles, and they don't want to jeopardize
the operation of their facilities. You might call the closest USAR/ARNG flight
facility, explain what happened, and ask if it's possible they "inadvertently"
did it. It'll be enough to post a reminder to the pilots that they need to be more
careful...
fnk...@socketis.net
>Mark Thomen wrote:
>>
>> Just wondered; I've never heard ANYONE use the term "high rate of speed" in
>> the same sentence as "Huey." Normal cruise is usually around 85-95 kts.
>
>Alright, I might have been a bit facetious when I used the term, but you got
to admit, 85 -90
>knots to a person on the ground as it flies overhead is *fast.*
>
>> >
>> >As for the altitude estimate, I used the "Mk 1 eyeball," based on
comparison to known objects in
>> >the area (single and two story homes, trees, light poles, etc.) and from
hanging out at more
>> >airshows than I care to admit to over the years.
>>
notoriously
>> bad - even by experienced pilots. However, realize that helicopters have
>> different rules for minimum altitudes based on their unique abilities. So
while
>> an airplane flying at 200 agl would not only be unsafe (and, violating the
>> regs), that is not necessarily a problem for helicopters. SOP (aka
COURTESY)
>> says that we never flew the Huey in a way that would create unnecessary
>> complaints (i.e. noise).
>
>I'll go a step further; if I held my fist out at arm's length, as the machine
passed just to the
>south of me, it's fuselage might have been a little longer than two "fist
widths."
>
but I just get a bit
>"twitchy" when I start hearing stories about training excercises in other
parts of the country
>involving low-level flight in areas that had never seen such activity before
(i.e. populated
mission it would not be uncommon for the Military to start doing training
missions in populated areas, especialy areas that are simular to the
conditions that they expect to find in Bosnia. I flew for 6 years as a Flight
Medic in UH-1H Iraqois, and have flown many hours at NOE levels. NOE may
mean down in the weeds, if in an area that is with out trees, or may mean at
or below tree top height. As for the fact that they are flying in a new area,
I bet if you check your aviation maps for that area it will show that the
area is a military reserved flight training area. Where I live, in central
Missouri, this is so, but uptill about 2yrs ago there where very few flights
in this area. Yet lately there are almost dayly fly overs. Every thing from
AH-64's to A-10's and F-15's and 16's.
devinh...@gmail.com
> MILITARY HELICOPTER OPERATIONS IN AND AROUND NATRONA COUNTY
> WYOMING
>
> Purpose: The purpose of this paper is to describe eyewitness accounts of unidentified aircraft
> sightings and military operations in and around Natrona County Wyoming.
>
> Sightings of "Black" military appearing helicopters have been occurring in and around Natrona
> County Wyoming since early 1993. In 1994 a black military type helicopter was photographed on the
> ramp in front of the Casper Air Service hanger at the Natrona County Airport. The helicopter is
> devoid of all markings except a tail number of 550. A total of eleven helicopters were parked on the
> ramp at the time the photograph was taken. The photographer reports that a guard dressed in black
> BDUs, (Battle Dress Uniform), was present with the helicopters. The guard's uniform bore no
> insignia or markings of any kind. The guard requested that the photographer not take pictures of the
> helicopters but did not offer any physical resistance when the photographer persisted.
>
devinh...@gmail.com
PaxPerPoten
listen..Oh, Hell no !I tried to tell him they had crazy people over
there that would be delusional over that damned Kite. Its a good thing I
took the extra roll of string away from him or we would have Montana,
Idaho and Canada bitching too.
--
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard
the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all
ages who mean to govern well, but *They mean to govern*. They promise to
be good masters, *but they mean to be masters*. Daniel Webster