Sami
Cliff
[
The ordeal of Al-Jazeera cameraman
By Abdus Sattar Ghazali
After six and a half years of imprisonment in Guantanamo Bay military prison,
Al-Jazeera cameraman, Sami Al-Hajj, was released on May 2, 2008 in a very bad
shape. He was carried off a U.S. air force jet on a stretcher when he arrived in
Khartoum, Sudan, and immediately taken to hospital. Al-Hajj’s case symbolizes
the policy of torture and human rights violation of the Bush Administration.
Sami al Hajj, who is originally from Sudan, is a journalist working for the
Qatari TV Al-Jazeera. After an assignment to cover the conflict in Afghanistan,
he was asked to return there from Pakistan to cover the inauguration of the new
Afghan government. He and his crew were stopped by the Pakistani intelligence
officers before they reached the border. He was handed over to U.S. authorities
who took him to Bagram airbase in Afghanistan and ultimately transferred to
Guantánamo Bay. Al-Hajj was held as an “enemy combatant” without ever facing
trial or charges. Al-Hajj was never prosecuted at Guantanamo so the U.S. did not
make public its full allegations against him.
Al-Haj’s detention may be described as political since the U.S. interrogators
focused almost exclusively on obtaining intelligence on Al-Jazeera and its
staff. At one point U.S. officials reportedly told Al-Hajj that he would be
released if he agreed to inform U.S. intelligence authorities about the
satellite network’s activities. Al-Hajj refused. In October 2006, Committee to
Protect Journalists highlighted his plight in a special report titled “The
Enemy?” From his hospital bed in Khartoum, now a free man, he told Al-Jazeera TV
that “rats are treated with more humanity”, than the Guantanamo inmates, whose
“human dignity was violated.”
While denying those held at Guantánamo Bay prison the right to challenge their
detentions in an independent and impartial court, in line with the centuries old
right to habeas corpus, the U.S. authorities have subjected detainees to
treatment and conditions that violate the absolute prohibition on torture or
other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.
]
...
[
In the aftermath of 9/11, the Bush Administration is trying to make its own
definition of torture and say we don’t violate them. In March 2003, a notorious
torture memo was written in which John Yoo, who was then deputy assistant
attorney general for the office of legal counsel, argued that President Bush’s
wartime authority had priority over any international ban on torture. “Our
previous opinions make clear that customary international law is not federal law
and that the president is free to override it at his discretion,” Yoo wrote.
The 81-page memo, declassified in January 2008 in response to an ACLU law suit,
was rescinded after nine months but it was replaced by another secret legal
opinion in 2005 that for first time provided explicit authorization to barrage
terror suspects with a combination of painful physical and psychological
tactics, including head-slapping, simulated drowning and frigid temperatures.
In March 2008, President Bush vetoed a legislation that would have limited the
CIA to using only the 19 interrogation methods approved in the Army field
manual.
]
...
[
Reverting to the issue of Sami Al-Hajj who was released just one day before the
World Press Freedom Day. Interestingly, in its 2007 press freedom index,
Reporters Sans Frontieres (Reporters without Borders) ranks the United States in
48th position.
]
...
Bruce in Bangkok
Is Al-Jazeera the station that televised some of the lads cutting a
bloke's head off?
Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)
Myal
that and every other tv station that showed the same footage ... your
point ?
Bruce in Bangkok
I was referring to the statement "From his hospital bed in Khartoum,
now a free man, he told Al-Jazeera TV that rats are treated with more
humanity, than the Guantanamo inmates, whose human dignity was
violated.
Perhaps his "human dignity" would have been less violated if they had
cut his head off?
It is called hypocrisy if you happily air videos of westerners having
their head cut off but cry about your human dignity being violated
when you are put in jail. Did those without heads lose less of their
human dignity?
mariposas rand mair fheal
> now a free man, he told Al-Jazeera TV that rats are treated with more
> humanity, than the Guantanamo inmates, whose human dignity was
> violated.
>
> Perhaps his "human dignity" would have been less violated if they had
> cut his head off?
so if i understand correctly
- the reporter is presumed to be moslem
- some other moslem did some decapitating
- therefore anything the usa does to the reporter is justified
> It is called hypocrisy if you happily air videos of westerners having
> their head cut off but cry about your human dignity being violated
al-jezeera etc are showing footage not usually seen in the usa
of the dead mangled bodies and still living mangled bodies
rather than the sanitized video game footage typically shown here
so yeah they are showing that warfare is an affront to human dignity
bad press
no treats for you
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
RM v2.0
make them wear that awful underwear on their heads? Not the leash again,
OMG! I bet he still has his head, all his body parts, etc.
Gunner
Oddly enough though..that the International Red Cross and any number
of other organizations have found Gitmo detainees to be treated well
and with consideration
I wonder if this is just another case similar to the Westbank funeral
of a guy "murdered by the Jews", who's coffin was dropped during the
procession..well televised.. and who got up out of his coffin and
scurried away into the crowd. Another staged propaganda moment ruined
by clumsiness.
Gunner
Ed Huntress
"Gunner" <gun...@NOSPAM.lightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:3n4m24h7pcqjf990l...@4ax.com...
<snip>
>
> Oddly enough though..that the International Red Cross and any number
> of other organizations have found Gitmo detainees to be treated well
> and with consideration
Enough of the oddly already. The International Red Cross does not officially
comment on treatment, and they made this statement about the issue a while
back:
"The contents of the ICRC's representations and reports are confidential and
for the exclusive attention of the relevant detaining authorities.
Therefore, in accordance with its usual policy, the organization will not
publicly confirm or deny whether the quotations in the article entitled "Red
Cross Finds Detainee Abuse in Guantanamo", which appeared in the New York
Times of 30 November, reflect findings reported by the ICRC to the United
States authorities regarding the conditions of detention and treatment of
detainees at Guantanamo Bay."
That's their policy, and they stick to it. However, in a breach of the
policy, reports have been leaked and at least one IRC official has spoken
out about "treatment tantamount to torture" and a "breach of medical
ethics."
So your statement is a crock.
--
Ed Huntress
RM v2.0
> And you would be one of the first people screaming bloody murder if
> any of our non-military, or such were being held in Iraq or
> Afghanistant without chance for a trial. That's where the hypocrisy
> lies.
>
Ever heard of Vietnam? Also, they ARE holding our people and to hell with
trials they just kill or really torture them.
> You better have a nice chat with FOXnews and Bill O'Reilly (who was
> VERY happy about that beheading), CNN, ABC, NBC, MSNBC, CBS, and every
> other network that aired it.
>
They are as complicit in my mind as the ones doing the beheading. Without an
audience there is no reason for the act.
> For that matter, you better take out Youtube, google, and Myspace too.
>
See above.
I am not for US involvement in any foreign wars or affairs unless asked for
officially. I want all our troops brought home and put on the borders just
like those Euro countries the libs love so much.
Bruce in Bangkok
<love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 14 May 2008 19:14:07 +0700, I found that Bruce in Bangkok
><decypher_...@signature.line> Scribbled the following on the
>bathroom wall:
>
>>I was referring to the statement "From his hospital bed in Khartoum,
>>now a free man, he told Al-Jazeera TV that rats are treated with more
>>humanity, than the Guantanamo inmates, whose human dignity was
>>violated.
>
>And you would be one of the first people screaming bloody murder if
>any of our non-military, or such were being held in Iraq or
>Afghanistant without chance for a trial. That's where the hypocrisy
>lies.
No, I'm commenting on a chap who works for a television system that
broadcasts pictures of westerners being killed in barbaric manners and
then whinging about his "human dignity". I simply asked whether his
dignity would have been less offended had they cut off HIS head?
You, on the other hand, seem to feel that if someone is down in the
sewer, fumbling around in the shit all day that people shouldn't make
comments like, "Jesus! you stink" when they come up, because it
offends their dignity.
There is an old English Language saying "What's sauce for the goose is
sauce for the gander" that applies to this situation.
>>Perhaps his "human dignity" would have been less violated if they had
>>cut his head off?
>>
>>It is called hypocrisy if you happily air videos of westerners having
>>their head cut off but cry about your human dignity being violated
>>when you are put in jail. Did those without heads lose less of their
>>human dignity?
>
>
>You better have a nice chat with FOXnews and Bill O'Reilly (who was
>VERY happy about that beheading), CNN, ABC, NBC, MSNBC, CBS, and every
>other network that aired it.
>
>For that matter, you better take out Youtube, google, and Myspace too.
Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)
Gunner
<love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 14 May 2008 12:53:42 -0400, I found that "Ed Huntress"
><hunt...@optonline.net> Scribbled the following on the bathroom
>wall:
>
>>
>>That's their policy, and they stick to it. However, in a breach of the
>>policy, reports have been leaked and at least one IRC official has spoken
>>out about "treatment tantamount to torture" and a "breach of medical
>>ethics."
>>
>>So your statement is a crock.
>
>
>Gunner isn't that bright, he's the product of right-wing propaganda. I
>doubt he's ever had a thought in his head that wasn't programmed by
>them.
Spoken like a true Useful Idiot.
My compliments to your programmers in the DNC
Gunner
Gunner
<love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 15 May 2008 07:47:16 +0700, I found that Bruce in Bangkok
><decypher_...@signature.line> Scribbled the following on the
>bathroom wall:
>
>>No, I'm commenting on a chap who works for a television system that
>>broadcasts pictures of westerners being killed in barbaric manners and
>>then whinging about his "human dignity". I simply asked whether his
>>dignity would have been less offended had they cut off HIS head?
>
>
>That's a very good description of both Bill O'reilly and Rush
>Limbaugh.
Or every liberal that walked the planet
Gunner
Bruce in Bangkok
<love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 15 May 2008 07:47:16 +0700, I found that Bruce in Bangkok
><decypher_...@signature.line> Scribbled the following on the
>bathroom wall:
>
>>No, I'm commenting on a chap who works for a television system that
>>broadcasts pictures of westerners being killed in barbaric manners and
>>then whinging about his "human dignity". I simply asked whether his
>>dignity would have been less offended had they cut off HIS head?
>
>
>That's a very good description of both Bill O'reilly and Rush
>Limbaugh.
It is a level playing field. Anyone can be a hypocrite.
mariposas rand mair fheal
Bruce in Bangkok <decypher_...@signature.line> wrote:
> No, I'm commenting on a chap who works for a television system that
> broadcasts pictures of westerners being killed in barbaric manners and
> then whinging about his "human dignity". I simply asked whether his
> dignity would have been less offended had they cut off HIS head?
i was watching the newshour and they were showing picture
of dead livestock and humans in the burma cyclone flood zone
i guess that means jim lehrer wants to drown people
mariposas rand mair fheal
"RM v2.0" <Bl...@spam.sucks> wrote:
> >
> > And you would be one of the first people screaming bloody murder if
> > any of our non-military, or such were being held in Iraq or
> > Afghanistant without chance for a trial. That's where the hypocrisy
> > lies.
> >
>
> Ever heard of Vietnam? Also, they ARE holding our people and to hell with
> trials they just kill or really torture them.
and now you have no basis to complain about that
Gunner
<love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 14 May 2008 23:20:44 -0700, I found that Gunner
><gun...@NOSPAM.lightspeed.net> Scribbled the following on the bathroom
>wall:
>
>>On Wed, 14 May 2008 17:00:44 -0500, The One True Roger
>><love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 14 May 2008 12:53:42 -0400, I found that "Ed Huntress"
>>><hunt...@optonline.net> Scribbled the following on the bathroom
>>>wall:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>That's their policy, and they stick to it. However, in a breach of the
>>>>policy, reports have been leaked and at least one IRC official has spoken
>>>>out about "treatment tantamount to torture" and a "breach of medical
>>>>ethics."
>>>>
>>>>So your statement is a crock.
>>>
>>>
>>>Gunner isn't that bright, he's the product of right-wing propaganda. I
>>>doubt he's ever had a thought in his head that wasn't programmed by
>>>them.
>>
>>
>>Spoken like a true Useful Idiot.
>>
>>My compliments to your programmers in the DNC
>>
>>Gunner
>
>
>If ever that was so lil'gummer.
>
>Voting on party lines is completely ignorant, and in your case utterly
>blind.
>
>I don't belong to, or support any political party, I vote for who I
>think can do the job. You, you just vote a straight line, not caring
>what any of the candidates stand for, as long as you vote republican,
>or the others vote democrat.
Suuuuure you do. Oh fuck yes.
If you voted for anyone other than a Dem, that empty gourd you call a
skull would implode.
Gunner
Aratzio
<gun...@NOSPAM.lightspeed.net> bloviated:
In gummyworld, anyone that does not think like gummy is a lying.
Gunner
<love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 15 May 2008 15:40:41 GMT, I found that Aratzio
><a6ah...@sneakemail.com> Scribbled the following on the bathroom
>wall:
>
>>>If you voted for anyone other than a Dem, that empty gourd you call a
>>>skull would implode.
>>>
>>>Gunner
>>
>>In gummyworld, anyone that does not think like gummy is a lying.
>
>
>lil'gummer thinks?
Careful Rogo..your gourd is starting to look a bit lopsidded.
Gunner
Aratzio
Gunner <gun...@NOSPAM.lightspeed.net> got double secret probation for
writing:
Do you fear everything gummy or do you have a specific set of phobias
driving your bizarre *thinking*?
--
A Number 1, Grade A, Prime USDA 'Ratz
Accept No Substitute
Gunner
<love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 15 May 2008 22:09:17 -0700, I found that Gunner
><gun...@NOSPAM.lightspeed.net> Scribbled the following on the bathroom
>wall:
>
>>On Thu, 15 May 2008 16:33:36 -0500, The One True Roger
>><love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 15 May 2008 15:40:41 GMT, I found that Aratzio
>>><a6ah...@sneakemail.com> Scribbled the following on the bathroom
>>>wall:
>>>
>>>>>If you voted for anyone other than a Dem, that empty gourd you call a
>>>>>skull would implode.
>>>>>
>>>>>Gunner
>>>>
>>>>In gummyworld, anyone that does not think like gummy is a lying.
>>>
>>>
>>>lil'gummer thinks?
>>
>>
>>Careful Rogo..your gourd is starting to look a bit lopsidded.
>>
>>Gunner
>
>As I said, you think? Can't tell by your posts. Nothing more than what
>you are programmed to believe by the right-wing.
Man..you might want to soak that gourd, its really looking bad.
Gunner
Hawke
"Aratzio" <a6ah...@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:tdmo24pa28464pog0...@4ax.com...
There is a reason why some people always thing everyone else is lying about
everything. It's because they lie about everything so they think everyone
else is too, which explains the Popgunner. Imagine how shocked they would be
if they found out that everyone isn't constantly lying like they are.
Hawke
Hawke
"The One True Roger" <love...@gawab.com> wrote in message
news:11bp24t57c8c4q7oo...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 15 May 2008 15:40:41 GMT, I found that Aratzio
> wall:
>
> >>If you voted for anyone other than a Dem, that empty gourd you call a
> >>skull would implode.
> >>
> >>Gunner
> >
> >In gummyworld, anyone that does not think like gummy is a lying.
>
>
No, but he's very good at parroting things he hears from right wing big
mouths like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity.
Hawke
Cliff
<decypher_...@signature.line> wrote:
>On Wed, 14 May 2008 09:58:43 -0500, The One True Roger
><love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 14 May 2008 19:14:07 +0700, I found that Bruce in Bangkok
>><decypher_...@signature.line> Scribbled the following on the
>>bathroom wall:
>>
>>>I was referring to the statement "From his hospital bed in Khartoum,
>>>now a free man, he told Al-Jazeera TV that rats are treated with more
>>>humanity, than the Guantanamo inmates, whose human dignity was
>>>violated.
>>
>>And you would be one of the first people screaming bloody murder if
>>any of our non-military, or such were being held in Iraq or
>>Afghanistant without chance for a trial. That's where the hypocrisy
>>lies.
>
>No, I'm commenting on a chap who works for a television system that
>broadcasts pictures of westerners being killed in barbaric manners and
>then whinging about his "human dignity".
You had problems with about a million killed thus far by
the US in Iraq over "WMDs" that were long known not
to exist (and none of the business of the US even if they had)?
>I simply asked whether his
>dignity would have been less offended had they cut off HIS head?
Wrong is wrong. So is trying to censor the news (though it
is heavy propaganda in the US to begin with).
>You, on the other hand, seem to feel that if someone is down in the
>sewer, fumbling around in the shit all day that people shouldn't make
>comments like, "Jesus! you stink" when they come up, because it
>offends their dignity.
This justifies years of torture exactly how?
>There is an old English Language saying "What's sauce for the goose is
>sauce for the gander" that applies to this situation.
IOW Do as many wrong things as you can, eh?
I smell a winger.
>>>Perhaps his "human dignity" would have been less violated if they had
>>>cut his head off?
>>>
>>>It is called hypocrisy if you happily air videos of westerners having
>>>their head cut off but cry about your human dignity being violated
>>>when you are put in jail. Did those without heads lose less of their
>>>human dignity?
>>
>>
>>You better have a nice chat with FOXnews and Bill O'Reilly (who was
>>VERY happy about that beheading), CNN, ABC, NBC, MSNBC, CBS, and every
>>other network that aired it.
>>
>>For that matter, you better take out Youtube, google, and Myspace too.
>
>Bruce-in-Bangkok
>(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)
--
Cliff
Cliff
>>> Bruce-in-Bangkok
>>> (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)
>
>
>I was referring to the statement "From his hospital bed in Khartoum,
>now a free man, he told Al-Jazeera TV that rats are treated with more
>humanity, than the Guantanamo inmates, whose human dignity was
>violated.
>
>Perhaps his "human dignity" would have been less violated if they had
>cut his head off?
>
>It is called hypocrisy if you happily air videos of westerners having
>their head cut off but cry about your human dignity being violated
>when you are put in jail. Did those without heads lose less of their
>human dignity?
CLUE: Al-Jazeera is sort of an offshoot from the BBC
and much more respected (and honest) world wide than
Faux "news" or most US "media".
Cliff
>>
>> And you would be one of the first people screaming bloody murder if
>> any of our non-military, or such were being held in Iraq or
>> Afghanistant without chance for a trial. That's where the hypocrisy
>> lies.
>>
>
>Ever heard of Vietnam? Also, they ARE holding our people and to hell with
>trials they just kill or really torture them.
So they are repubs & neocons?
>> You better have a nice chat with FOXnews and Bill O'Reilly (who was
>> VERY happy about that beheading), CNN, ABC, NBC, MSNBC, CBS, and every
>> other network that aired it.
>>
>
>They are as complicit in my mind as the ones doing the beheading. Without an
>audience there is no reason for the act.
Hence secret killings are better, eh?
Like those US-funded death squads do.
Or like who-knows under the "patriot act"? It's illegal to
know.
>> For that matter, you better take out Youtube, google, and Myspace too.
>>
>See above.
> I am not for US involvement in any foreign wars or affairs unless asked for
>officially. I want all our troops brought home and put on the borders just
>like those Euro countries the libs love so much.
What armed & fortified borders in the EU?
Why do you so fear Canadians?
Do they speak French?
--
Cliff
Kadaitcha Man
news:np8t24pi139bci9fn...@4ax.com...
*plonk*
--
alt.usenet.kooks
"We are arrant knaves all, believe none of us."
Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 1 [129]
Hammer of Thor: February 2007. Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook,
Line & Sinker: September 2005, April 2006, January 2007.
Official Member: Cabal Obsidian Order COOSN-124-07-06660
Official Overseer of Kooks & Trolls in 24hoursupport.helpdesk
Member of:
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Most hated usenetizens of all time List
Cog in the AUK Hate Machine List
Find me on Google Maps: 24°39'47.13"S, 134°4'20.18"E
Gunner
<love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 16 May 2008 10:16:36 -0700, I found that Gunner
><gun...@NOSPAM.lightspeed.net> Scribbled the following on the bathroom
>wall:
>
>>On Fri, 16 May 2008 10:39:06 -0500, The One True Roger
>><love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 15 May 2008 22:09:17 -0700, I found that Gunner
>>><gun...@NOSPAM.lightspeed.net> Scribbled the following on the bathroom
>>>wall:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 15 May 2008 16:33:36 -0500, The One True Roger
>>>><love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 15 May 2008 15:40:41 GMT, I found that Aratzio
>>>>><a6ah...@sneakemail.com> Scribbled the following on the bathroom
>>>>>wall:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>If you voted for anyone other than a Dem, that empty gourd you call a
>>>>>>>skull would implode.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Gunner
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In gummyworld, anyone that does not think like gummy is a lying.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>lil'gummer thinks?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Careful Rogo..your gourd is starting to look a bit lopsidded.
>>>>
>>>>Gunner
>>>
>>>As I said, you think? Can't tell by your posts. Nothing more than what
>>>you are programmed to believe by the right-wing.
>>
>>Man..you might want to soak that gourd, its really looking bad.
>>
>>Gunner
>
>
>So you don't deny the fact that you have no thoughts of your own; that
>everything you believe HAS been fed to you by the right-wing.
Dude...you had best soak that gourd really fast, its already starting
to look like a raisin
Gunner
Cliff
<nospam.nos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>*plonk*
I win !!!
<G>
--
Cliff
Cliff
<decypher_...@signature.line> wrote:
>On Wed, 14 May 2008 09:58:43 -0500, The One True Roger
><love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 14 May 2008 19:14:07 +0700, I found that Bruce in Bangkok
>><decypher_...@signature.line> Scribbled the following on the
>>bathroom wall:
>>
>>>I was referring to the statement "From his hospital bed in Khartoum,
>>>now a free man, he told Al-Jazeera TV that rats are treated with more
>>>humanity, than the Guantanamo inmates, whose human dignity was
>>>violated.
>>
>>And you would be one of the first people screaming bloody murder if
>>any of our non-military, or such were being held in Iraq or
>>Afghanistant without chance for a trial. That's where the hypocrisy
>>lies.
>
>No, I'm commenting on a chap who works for a television system that
>broadcasts pictures of westerners being killed in barbaric manners and
>then whinging about his "human dignity".
No, you are not.
They did not take the pictures.
They just reported the news.
Nor was this ONE photographer in any way involved.
>I simply asked whether his
>dignity would have been less offended had they cut off HIS head?
For being a press photographer? Plus torturing him
for years on end without even any evidence, charges, etc?
It could now happen to anybody, anywhere, anytime.
Except perhaps in/from China or Russia. They could object
& make it stick I think (IF they find out).
--
Cliff
hones...@centurytel.net
I knew that you would as Rick Mather is a PUSS!
HJ
Gunner Asch
<love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 17 May 2008 08:31:38 -0700, I found that Gunner
><gun...@NOSPAM.lightspeed.net> Scribbled the following on the bathroom
>wall:
>
>>Dude...you had best soak that gourd really fast, its already starting
>>to look like a raisin
>
>
>Yep, total lack of creativity, and even more a lack of intelligence on
>your part Gumby.
>
>All your talk about rights to an AK-47, why aren't you in Iraq?
Cause I did my time in service and am now too old?
And your MOS was what again?
Gunner
Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional,
illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an
unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the
proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
mariposas rand mair fheal
Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:
whats the difference between an enduring base and a permanent base?
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
call me desdenova seven seven seven seven seven
Aratzio
<gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> bloviated:
According to you, 54 years old and two tours, wounded enough for it to
be an issue 30 years later.
54 years old means high school graduate in June of 1972.
That leaves 9 months (June to March of 73) for you to have enlisted,
gone to boot camp, gone to training and been deployed to Vietnam,
twice. 9 months and two tours. Kinda tough to do.
How does that work, Gummy? Especially since the major withdrawl of US
troops in Vietnam was begun in 1972. Very few new/replacement troops
were sent to Vietnam after the *peace accords*.
Even for 9 month you would have had to have been in the last units
left in Vietnam. What are the odds there.
Well?
RM v2.0
>> I am not for US involvement in any foreign wars or affairs unless asked
>> for
>>officially. I want all our troops brought home and put on the borders just
>>like those Euro countries the libs love so much.
>
> What armed & fortified borders in the EU?
> Why do you so fear Canadians?
> Do they speak French?
> --
> Cliff
come over the Canadian border?
Cliff
>54 years old means high school graduate in June of 1972.
This asumes he went to HS.
And you forgot/missed his biker & oil-field years, etc ....
Kind of hard to do any of that PLUS all his current heavy
machine work with any major non-brain injures ... much
less hunt bears, etc.
--
Cliff
Cliff
Why bother when the CIA gives them visas?
False flag ....
--
Cliff
Aratzio
Cliff <Clhu...@aol.com> got double secret probation for writing:
Even if he had enlisted at 17, the odds of doing 2 tours during the
withdrawl are almost non-existant. The math just won't work out.
Michael A. Terrell
Gunner Asch wrote:
>
> On Sat, 17 May 2008 17:32:12 -0500, The One True Roger
> <love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 17 May 2008 08:31:38 -0700, I found that Gunner
> ><gun...@NOSPAM.lightspeed.net> Scribbled the following on the bathroom
> >wall:
> >
> >>Dude...you had best soak that gourd really fast, its already starting
> >>to look like a raisin
> >
> >
> >Yep, total lack of creativity, and even more a lack of intelligence on
> >your part Gumby.
> >
> >All your talk about rights to an AK-47, why aren't you in Iraq?
>
> Cause I did my time in service and am now too old?
>
> And your MOS was what again?
Did they ever assign a MOS to 'Camp follower'?
--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html
Use any search engine other than Google till they stop polluting USENET
with porn and junk commercial SPAM
If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm
Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:
He could have either volunteered for a second tour, and never left the
country, or volunteered as soon as he got back to the States. I stayed
a tour and a half and there was a spotter plane pilot at Da Nang,
called the Red Baron, who was there for several years, who they
finally had to send home practically at gun point.
(the rumor being that he and his girl friend had a finger in several
elicit businesses).
Bruce in Bangkok
<love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 20 May 2008 15:40:42 +0700, I found that Bruce in Bangkok
><decypher_...@signature.line> Scribbled the following on the
>bathroom wall:
>
>If that's the case, then how do we factor in his 'major injuries'
>received during the war? What he described would leave someone out of
>battle for a minimum of two years.
Don't have a clue. I was responding to the poster that said "Even if
he had enlisted at 17, the odds of doing 2 tours during the withdrawal
are almost non-existant. The math just won't work out." and telling
him how I and at least one other stayed in Viet Nam more then one tour
without leaving.
Aratzio
Bruce in Bangkok <decypher_...@signature.line> got double secret
probation for writing:
>On Mon, 19 May 2008 20:07:06 -0700, Aratzio <a6ah...@sneakemail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 19 May 2008 17:48:19 -0400, in the land of alt.usenet.kooks,
>>Cliff <Clhu...@aol.com> got double secret probation for writing:
>>
>>>On Mon, 19 May 2008 13:44:12 GMT, Aratzio <a6ah...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>54 years old means high school graduate in June of 1972.
>>>
>>> This asumes he went to HS.
>>> And you forgot/missed his biker & oil-field years, etc ....
>>>
>>> Kind of hard to do any of that PLUS all his current heavy
>>>machine work with any major non-brain injures ... much
>>>less hunt bears, etc.
>>
>>Even if he had enlisted at 17, the odds of doing 2 tours during the
>>withdrawl are almost non-existant. The math just won't work out.
>
>He could have either volunteered for a second tour, and never left the
>country, or volunteered as soon as he got back to the States. I stayed
>a tour and a half and there was a spotter plane pilot at Da Nang,
>called the Red Baron, who was there for several years, who they
>finally had to send home practically at gun point.
>
>(the rumor being that he and his girl friend had a finger in several
>elicit businesses).
>
>
>Bruce-in-Bangkok
>(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)
One minor problem, he was doing this in 1972. Explain how you can do 2
tours in 72. March 73 the last combat troops left. Jan 73 last combat
death. So the withdrawal was in place when he supposedly did two
tours. Withdrawal of troops started in early 72. Almost before he
could ever have been deployed.
He would also have had to get through basic and any other training
prior to his first deployment.
Remember he said he is 54. Which means he had 9 months after high
school graduation to do his two tours. Unless he is a high school drop
out then he has a maximum of a 16-18 months to do two tours. Kinda
hard to shoe horn two tours, get injured severely enough that
Blackwater refuses him 30+ years later in part because of the
injuries, recover from those injuries and do a 2nd tour. All while
combat is winding down and combat troops are being withdrawn.
And do it in the time frame he had available.
But then Gummy has been known to *slightly* exaggerate on occasion.
Well, out right lie would be the proper phrase.
Aratzio
Bruce in Bangkok <decypher_...@signature.line> got double secret
probation for writing:
In 1972?
That is the problem, not doing two tours, WHEN he supposedly did two
tours.
Here is the hint: He *could* have been 17 1/2 in late 71. Troop
withdrawal began in 1972. All combat troops were withdrawn by March of
'73. Cease fire in effect in Jan 73. So now he has only 1972 left.
Go ahead do the math, shoe horn two tours in that period and include
the withdrawal, basic training, injuries severe enough to keep
blackwater from being interested...
Nicholas
wrote:
I never did the math on this, but Aratzio, you have my attention.
This is interesting. Gummy's *bragging rights* have mostly revolved
around his heroic service to his country in Nam. Now...if it can be
PROVEN that he has misrepresented his credentials, it will blow me out
of my socks.
Nevertheless, giving him the benefit of the doubt, he might have an
explantion that we haven't considered yet.
Nicholas
Aratzio
Nicholas <Nich...@nowhere.net> got double secret probation for
writing:
I am waiting, I've posted that a couple times, neither gummy nor his
pals have even peeped as to how his service could have worked in the
time frame and the conditions of the time. He could claim he was in
combat after Jan 73 as an advisor to the ARVN. But the problem there
would be his VERY junior rank given his age at the time.
Nicholas
wrote:
I don't remember much from that period of time. Of course, I was in
school at the time (college) and had my mind on other things. I was
2S (student deferment) at the time we're talking about here and my
main interests (outside of humping coeds) was trying to get through
the curriculum with passing grades.
So you have the background to know what the timeframe of what all
happened is, and I'll watch to see how Gunner validates his dates of
service. BTW, he says he was in Army Rangers and specialized as a
sniper, if that's any help. And has draws full of medals, and etc
etc.
Is it true? Maybe only his hairdresser knows for sure.
Nick
Jeff McCann
I have no specific idea what Gunner's past may be, and I'll leave it to
the readers to judge his veracity for themselves. But I do know certain
things for a FACT. I KNOW men who were in combat in the US armed forces
at age 16 or 17. Underage enlistment is a well-documented historical
fact. I have personally helped military veterans straighten out their
records, benefits and legal affairs after having done so.
I also know, FOR A FACT, that our government has employed some
surprisingly young people to do some things they can't discuss or later
document, and that the government doesn't like to talk about, because
youths can get away with doing some things or going some places
unnoticed or ignored that would get an adult caught and even killed. It
seems the former Soviets and East Germans were also active in such
"youth programs." Sometimes the facts are not only stranger than we
imagine, they are stranger than we CAN imagine.
Jeff
for himself
Jeff McCann
Again, not to defend Gunner, but not everyone walking around in an army
uniform was working just for the army. Ever hear how the CIA now has it
own "paramilitary" forces? They didn't have these guys back in the
Vietnam era, officially, but they doubtless had the same or similar
mission requirements. I strongly suspect someone I know well was one of
those guys in army green, but working for some other guys entirely, back
in the '80's.
Jeff
Aratzio
Jeff McCann <NoS...@NoThanks.org> got double secret probation for
writing:
How lovely, your facts are exceptions to the rule. Rare ones at that.
>
>I also know, FOR A FACT, that our government has employed some
>surprisingly young people to do some things they can't discuss or later
>document, and that the government doesn't like to talk about, because
>youths can get away with doing some things or going some places
>unnoticed or ignored that would get an adult caught and even killed. It
>seems the former Soviets and East Germans were also active in such
>"youth programs." Sometimes the facts are not only stranger than we
>imagine, they are stranger than we CAN imagine.
>
>Jeff
Yes, gummy most assuredly is an exception to the rule.
Gunner
<love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 18 May 2008 23:20:43 -0700, I found that Gunner Asch
><gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> Scribbled the following on the bathroom
>wall:
>
>>>All your talk about rights to an AK-47, why aren't you in Iraq?
>>
>>Cause I did my time in service and am now too old?
>
>
>Liar.
>
>You were still in High School during most of Vietnam, and you
>graduated just a mere 9 months before full troop withdrawal.
Full troop withdrawl in 1970? Geeze dude..I wonder why no one told
me? Or the rest of the troopies.
>
>Can you explain how you went through basic training and then served
>two tours in 'Nam in a whole 9 months time?
See above Jody.
>
>In other words dumbass, stop disrespecting the actual veterans.
Right Jody, tell me more.
Gunner
Aratzio
Jeff McCann <NoS...@NoThanks.org> got double secret probation for
writing:
>Aratzio wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 May 2008 17:48:19 -0400, in the land of alt.usenet.kooks,
>> Cliff <Clhu...@aol.com> got double secret probation for writing:
>>
>>> On Mon, 19 May 2008 13:44:12 GMT, Aratzio <a6ah...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 54 years old means high school graduate in June of 1972.
>>> This asumes he went to HS.
>>> And you forgot/missed his biker & oil-field years, etc ....
>>>
>>> Kind of hard to do any of that PLUS all his current heavy
>>> machine work with any major non-brain injures ... much
>>> less hunt bears, etc.
>>
>> Even if he had enlisted at 17, the odds of doing 2 tours during the
>> withdrawl are almost non-existant. The math just won't work out.
>
>Again, not to defend Gunner, but not everyone walking around in an army
>uniform was working just for the army.
And yet contrary to your apologies, he claims it was military service,
not civilian.
<snip non-sequitur>
Gunner
I went home to get married. While waiting for the Freedom Bird, I was
notified she was killed by a drunk driver. I went home and buried her,
then want back. Shrug..second time around..I was a bit fuggazi.. after
making it through the first tour, sucking up shit and counting down
the time to my wedding....to find out she had been wacked by a repeat
drunk driver with at least one other cripple to his credit....
He btw..died in a gun cleaning accident the day I left for my second
tour.
Kharma..a terrible thing at times.
So are Viking Funerals. Particularly if you survive one.
As to two tours during the withdrawls of 1971-73...that would really
depend on MOS and organization and skillset.
Gunner
John R. Carroll
Aratzio
Gunner <gun...@NOSPAM.lightspeed.net> got double secret probation for
writing:
>On Mon, 19 May 2008 13:13:25 -0500, The One True Roger
><love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 18 May 2008 23:20:43 -0700, I found that Gunner Asch
>><gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> Scribbled the following on the bathroom
>>wall:
>>
>>>>All your talk about rights to an AK-47, why aren't you in Iraq?
>>>
>>>Cause I did my time in service and am now too old?
>>
>>
>>Liar.
>>
>>You were still in High School during most of Vietnam, and you
>>graduated just a mere 9 months before full troop withdrawal.
>
>Full troop withdrawl in 1970? Geeze dude..I wonder why no one told
>me? Or the rest of the troopies.
Born in 1954
Enlisted in 1970
Sure sure gummy.
Gunner
<love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 20 May 2008 15:40:42 +0700, I found that Bruce in Bangkok
><decypher_...@signature.line> Scribbled the following on the
>bathroom wall:
>
>If that's the case, then how do we factor in his 'major injuries'
>received during the war? What he described would leave someone out of
>battle for a minimum of two years.
What major injuries are those?
The driving band in the skull that ended my second tour 49 days after
I was supposed to have derosed? Took me almost a year before my
vision cleared properly and my sense of balance returned to 100%. No
big deal, all things considered. Ive been hurt worse riding rodeo and
motorcycles. It hit me in the head, not like it was someplace
important. Shrug.
I still hate Letterman and the VA.
the rest of the stuff were "kerry" injuries. Mostly skin deep, and
bits still pop out now and then like a zit. Though after my first back
surgery, the old doc handed me some stuff close to the spine and asked
me if I wanted to keep em as soveniers. Old Army doc in private
practice, recognized em. Not related to the back surgery, just close
and he figured while he was in there, they might effect the healing if
they migrated a bit, as such is prone to do.
Got some interesting scars here and there, outside of my foot, up
along the ankle...thank Crom it wasnt smeared with shit. Just skin
deep except where it came out above my ankle..couple interesting
puckers, ins and outs along the right forearm. 3 inches right and it
would have blown through my scope, 4 and it would have left a booboo
in my forehead Id not come back from...shrug. After the festivities
were over, a cleaning rod and some betadine cleaned out the ins and
outs. And a bunch of rice wine. Never even hit the bone, least not
much. The triangle bayonet on one end of an M44, and a scared kid on
the other.... through the web of the left hand...never touched the
bone, just some minor muscle..simple puncture wound, left a neat scar
on the palm, an almost matching one on the other side, now being
surrounded by liver spots...getting older is a bitch.
Shrug...if we dwelled on on the Almosts and nearlies that could have
killed us in our lives, we would all curl up in a fetal ball and a
pool of shit and piss. Being incoming, or a bus, or an 1800lb bull
with his testicles bound up in a bucking strap and a hardon for
anything with two legs. That last clean opening could have been a
streamer with the reserve fouled, or that Firestone could have blown
in the middle of the bridge with short rails, rather than a day later
on the 405.
Life can be really wierd at times. No one gets out alive.
Gunner
Gunner
wrote:
>>
>>Remember he said he is 54. Which means he had 9 months after high
>>school graduation to do his two tours. Unless he is a high school drop
>>out then he has a maximum of a 16-18 months to do two tours. Kinda
>>hard to shoe horn two tours, get injured severely enough that
>>Blackwater refuses him 30+ years later in part because of the
>>injuries, recover from those injuries and do a 2nd tour. All while
>>combat is winding down and combat troops are being withdrawn.
>>
>>And do it in the time frame he had available.
>>
>>But then Gummy has been known to *slightly* exaggerate on occasion.
>>Well, out right lie would be the proper phrase.
>
>I never did the math on this, but Aratzio, you have my attention.
>This is interesting. Gummy's *bragging rights* have mostly revolved
>around his heroic service to his country in Nam. Now...if it can be
>PROVEN that he has misrepresented his credentials, it will blow me out
>of my socks.
>
>Nevertheless, giving him the benefit of the doubt, he might have an
>explantion that we haven't considered yet.
>
>Nicholas
I graduated in 1970. Im almost 55.
Shrug
Gunner
Michael A. Terrell
Gunner wrote:
>
> On Mon, 19 May 2008 13:13:25 -0500, The One True Roger
> <love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 18 May 2008 23:20:43 -0700, I found that Gunner Asch
> ><gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> Scribbled the following on the bathroom
> >wall:
> >
> >>>All your talk about rights to an AK-47, why aren't you in Iraq?
> >>
> >>Cause I did my time in service and am now too old?
> >
> >
> >Liar.
> >
> >You were still in High School during most of Vietnam, and you
> >graduated just a mere 9 months before full troop withdrawal.
>
> Full troop withdrawl in 1970? Geeze dude..I wonder why no one told
> me? Or the rest of the troopies.
I graduated in 1970, as well. Why did they draft me two years later,
and tell me I was on my way to an AFRTS TV station in Vietnam? The one
that was overrun a few months later? The salvaged TV transmitter was
shipped to my station in Alasaka, late in 1973 to use for spare parts.
> >Can you explain how you went through basic training and then served
> >two tours in 'Nam in a whole 9 months time?
>
> See above Jody.
> >
> >In other words dumbass, stop disrespecting the actual veterans.
>
> Right Jody, tell me more.
>
> Gunner
Gunner
wrote:
>
>So you have the background to know what the timeframe of what all
>happened is, and I'll watch to see how Gunner validates his dates of
>service. BTW, he says he was in Army Rangers and specialized as a
>sniper, if that's any help. And has draws full of medals, and etc
>etc.
>
>Is it true? Maybe only his hairdresser knows for sure.
>
>Nick
Drawers full of medals? Odd..seems someone other than me is
exaggerating. Only one that means much to me is that flintlock.
The George Washingtons were just awards for being in the wrong place
at the wrong time. The rest...trying to stay alive.
I met Willy Waugh once, a gazillion years ago.. That that dude...he
has a drawer full of medals...and earned each of them the hard way.
Me..I was just a tiny cog in the Green Machine.
Gunner Asch
Gunner
wrote:
Listen to Jeff
>
>I also know, FOR A FACT, that our government has employed some
>surprisingly young people to do some things they can't discuss or later
>document, and that the government doesn't like to talk about, because
>youths can get away with doing some things or going some places
>unnoticed or ignored that would get an adult caught and even killed. It
>seems the former Soviets and East Germans were also active in such
>"youth programs." Sometimes the facts are not only stranger than we
>imagine, they are stranger than we CAN imagine.
>
>Jeff
Mr. Ba's Family
Phung Hoang
Shrug.
Sometime truth IS stranger than friction.
Gunner Asch
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Tim May
<a6ah...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
Only Mark knows the absolutely correct numbers/dates, but as someone
who is approximately of his age (born 12/21/1951, graduated high school
in 1970, now 56), it is barely possible that someone nominally two
years younger than I could have served 2 tours in Johnson's Folly.
Mark said at one time that he entered boot camp in early 1971. I
remembered this because this was my freshman year of college, 1970-71,
at UC Santa Barbara.
Mark would likely have been as young as 16, as old as 17, in early
1971, given his 1954 birth date. My best guess is that he had just
turned 17 in early 1971.
And the military was then accepting some volunteers who were 17, even
though draft registration did not begin until age 18, with drafting a
year later, at age 19.
(I know this part pretty damned well, as I had to register for the
draft shortly after my 18th birhday, and was primely (my word) eligible
in my 19th year. I chose to make myself eligible for the draft, 1A, in
that year. Thus ensuring that, since I was not drafted that year, I
wouldl almost certainly escape the pointless meat grinder that year,
the following year, and years thereafter.)
So it is possible that Mark enlisted in early 1971, at aged 17, and
completed basic training by, say, the summer of 1971.
Assuming he was deployed to the meat grinder, this gave him one
complete tour of duty by the summer of '72.
War operations had pretty much dried-up by the end of '72, so it's
pretty hard to imagine anyone entering boot camp in early '71 actually
serving two complete combat tours, which would've take us to mid '73.
But Mark can fill in the details with more precise date.
At this point, I don't see any _glaring_ errors, such as something
involving him entering combat at aged 15, just issues involving how
early did he join (he says early 1971) and how long did actual combat
for U.S. soldiers last, and for how much of this was he in?
Now why anyone but a lunatic or ADHD or bipolar personality would
volunteer for a second tour of duty is one issue, but it is possible he
volunteered in '71 and served until troops were pulled out of that
pointless cul-de-sac in early '73.
(The stupidity of volunteering to die for a war not even the
politicians of the time were effectively supporting is hard to
understand. We all knew it was foolish, the politicians admitted it was
foolish, only the stupid believed otherwise. Part of Darwinism, I
figure.)
Ergo, it's just barely possible that some silly high school dropout
born in 1954 could barely squeeze in what might be called "two tours of
duty" in what their ilk call "the Nam." Or 'in country," or any of a
bunch of terms which we in the 1970s and early 1980s knew to interpret
as "Do not hire this person. Tell them their service was important. But
make sure they are out of the building as quickly as can be managed."
We at Intel knew that VietCong vets were walking timebombs, long before
Platoon and Full Metal Jacket. They were treated as unexploded
grenades, given a polite wave-off.
"Hope you get a dust-off in the parking lot, Gunny!"
(If it's any consolation to those of Gunny's generation, the tech
companies I have connections with today think even less of today's Bush
War II vets than they though of Gunny's generation. Anyone stupid
enough to die as cannon fodder for Prince Azaria or for the Shiite vs.
Sunni war is automatically considered to be too stupid to work for any
companies I have investment connections in.)
I interviewed an Army officer for a position once. Never again.
Their world is different from what we need. Maybe there's a role for
them as junior bank officers at Countrywide, but not at high tech
companies.
--Tim May
Tim May
Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> I graduated in 1970, as well. Why did they draft me two years later,
> and tell me I was on my way to an AFRTS TV station in Vietnam? The one
> that was overrun a few months later? The salvaged TV transmitter was
> shipped to my station in Alasaka, late in 1973 to use for spare parts.
I graduated in 1970, too. (Thomas A. Edison High School, Alexandria,
Virginia)
Almost nobody in my senior class was drafted. In fact, at my later
class reunions we were unable to name a single guy who had been
drafted. One volunteered for the Navy and bacame a Captain in the JAG
Corps, retiring several years ago. Another was a pilot for the B-1B
jets, but that was in the late 70s or so.
None of us were sent to the meat grinder, as near as we could tell.
This was out of a total class of 400+, out of a school of 1600+.
Over the next several years of college, the meat grinder victims faded.
By 1974-5, we no longer interviewed those who had served as cannon
fodder in Vietnam.
By 1976-77, the fools who managed to get pulled into Vietnam were
running begging bowls in front of Walmart or scamming the government
for more handouts.
The Bush War II vets are in even worse shape.
Why didn't they see it all coming?
(I saw the Vietnam thing coming in 1968....)
I guess it's part of the Overall Plan, to extinguish 30 million, by war
or by result of war.
For the Bush War II vets, better polish those begging bowls.
--Tim May
Gunner
wrote:
>Aratzio wrote:
Actually, its all made up. Im 15 yrs old and using my brothers
computer. sounded good though, didnt it?
Its really lonely here in the house, all alone, stuck in this old
rusty wheelchair, with nothing to read but my brothers stacks of old
Soldiers of Fortune magazines and some really sticky fuckbooks.
Snicker......Ive been posting since I was 5, and nobody caught on.
Cool eh?
Laugh laugh laugh
Gunner
Cliff
>I have no specific idea what Gunner's past may be, and I'll leave it to
>the readers to judge his veracity for themselves.
Good point.
He almost never tells the truth.
--
Cliff
Bob Brock
Was it the 10th grade that you graduated from? I graduated in 71. I'm
almost 56. BTW, I didn't turn 19 until 72.
>Shrug
>
>Gunner
Gunner
<tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
>In article <d8KdnUiRo5PIIa7V...@earthlink.com>, Michael A.
>Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> I graduated in 1970, as well. Why did they draft me two years later,
>> and tell me I was on my way to an AFRTS TV station in Vietnam? The one
>> that was overrun a few months later? The salvaged TV transmitter was
>> shipped to my station in Alasaka, late in 1973 to use for spare parts.
>
>I graduated in 1970, too. (Thomas A. Edison High School, Alexandria,
>Virginia)
>
>Almost nobody in my senior class was drafted. In fact, at my later
>class reunions we were unable to name a single guy who had been
>drafted. One volunteered for the Navy and bacame a Captain in the JAG
>Corps, retiring several years ago. Another was a pilot for the B-1B
>jets, but that was in the late 70s or so.
The draft was largely over by 1970. Some of us volunteered because of
a sense of duty, others because it was a way to get a career and a bus
ticket out of the small town we were raised in, with no hope of
college on our own. Some..for both reasons.
They promised me Id be trained as a wireman. In those days, having
been trained as a telephone guy, when you got out, any phone company
in the US would hire you in an instant, and once you got a job with a
phone company..you were set for life. Testosterone and the ability to
shoot anything, really really well, mucked things up..."for the good
of the service" and all that.
Though to be fair..the golden years of working for the phone company
were about to be over, when they got deregulated.
Gunner
<love...@gawab.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 20 May 2008 22:21:23 -0700, I found that Gunner
><gun...@NOSPAM.lightspeed.net> Scribbled the following on the bathroom
>wall:
>
>>>You were still in High School during most of Vietnam, and you
>>>graduated just a mere 9 months before full troop withdrawal.
>>
>>Full troop withdrawl in 1970? Geeze dude..I wonder why no one told
>>me? Or the rest of the troopies.
>
>
>If you graduated in 1970, that would have put you at 16, by your own
>words and supposed current age.
>
>So, tell us how that is possible.
>
>math doesn't lie Gumby; unfortuantely, you do and you dishonor our
>veterans with more lies. I'd love to put you in a room with my uncle
>Bruce, he'd have a field day with you. He's an actual vet, who has
>never forgotten the hell he went through there.
You mean he would beat up a crippled 15 yr old in a wheelchair?
You have a mean family Jody.
Gunner
Bob Brock
First you were 19 in 1972, then you were 17 in 1972, now you claim to
have been 15 when discharged. Your lies are mounting up.
DaveB
<tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
Damn, I was there two years early.......sheesh ur stupid.
Daveb
Tim May
<deb...@nt.org> wrote:
You repeated my quote, but removed the important line:
"Why didn't they see it all coming?"
which established the context.
Your version removed the context.
Basically, I didn't say I saw the Vietnam War, qua War, coming, as it
was already upon us.
What I _saw_ was the outcome, the clusterfuck. And I saw this clearly
by 1968, two years prior to my high school graduation.
So stop altering the context of quotes for silly rhetorical
point-scoring game reasons.
--Tim May
pyotr filipivich
Gunner <gun...@NOSPAM.lightspeed.net> reported Elvis on Wed, 21 May
2008 10:30:08 -0700 in misc.survivalism :
>On Tue, 20 May 2008 23:42:10 -0700, Tim May
><tim...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
>
>>In article <d8KdnUiRo5PIIa7V...@earthlink.com>, Michael A.
>>Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> I graduated in 1970, as well. Why did they draft me two years later,
>>> and tell me I was on my way to an AFRTS TV station in Vietnam? The one
>>> that was overrun a few months later? The salvaged TV transmitter was
>>> shipped to my station in Alasaka, late in 1973 to use for spare parts.
>>
>>I graduated in 1970, too. (Thomas A. Edison High School, Alexandria,
>>Virginia)
>>
>>Almost nobody in my senior class was drafted. In fact, at my later
>>class reunions we were unable to name a single guy who had been
>>drafted. One volunteered for the Navy and bacame a Captain in the JAG
>>Corps, retiring several years ago. Another was a pilot for the B-1B
>>jets, but that was in the late 70s or so.
>
>The draft was largely over by 1970. Some of us volunteered because of
>a sense of duty, others because it was a way to get a career and a bus
>ticket out of the small town we were raised in, with no hope of
>college on our own. Some..for both reasons.
It may have been "largely over" but it wasn't dead enough to rifle
it's pockets for loose change. Nixon didn't end call ups until
January of '73 (about the time the Paris Peace Accords were signed, as
I recall.). Still had to register, at least I did. US Embassy Madrid
Spain. Classified 1-H.
tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."
pyotr filipivich
2008 23:29:03 -0700 in misc.survivalism :
>
>>> I am waiting, I've posted that a couple times, neither gummy nor his
>>> pals have even peeped as to how his service could have worked in the
>>> time frame and the conditions of the time. He could claim he was in
>>> combat after Jan 73 as an advisor to the ARVN. But the problem there
>>> would be his VERY junior rank given his age at the time.
>>
>>I have no specific idea what Gunner's past may be, and I'll leave it to
>>the readers to judge his veracity for themselves. But I do know certain
>>things for a FACT. I KNOW men who were in combat in the US armed forces
>>at age 16 or 17. Underage enlistment is a well-documented historical
>>fact. I have personally helped military veterans straighten out their
>>records, benefits and legal affairs after having done so.
E.g. Col Hackworth, lied to get into the Merchant Marine, then
used that as a means to enlist in the Regular Army.
As for getting young men to do things they can't talk about, well,
they are young ... And as Tony-san said once. "Czechoslovakia is
nice in the spring. Err, so they tell me, I've never really been
there."
Jeff McCann
Try not being such a dick right at of the box. My evidence suggests
underage enlistments were rather common in the WWII to Vietnam
era,before computerized record-keeping and cross-linked data bases.
>> I also know, FOR A FACT, that our government has employed some
>> surprisingly young people to do some things they can't discuss or later
>> document, and that the government doesn't like to talk about, because
>> youths can get away with doing some things or going some places
>> unnoticed or ignored that would get an adult caught and even killed. It
>> seems the former Soviets and East Germans were also active in such
>> "youth programs." Sometimes the facts are not only stranger than we
>> imagine, they are stranger than we CAN imagine.
>>
>> Jeff
>
> Yes, gummy most assuredly is an exception to the rule.
Gunner has been in my killfile for awhile now. He and others of his ilk
took great pleasure in questioning and denigrating even the well
established military service records of many fine men in public life for
crass partisan political purposes, so it doesn't bother me one whit to
see his own claims of martial valor placed under a microscope now.
I wouldn't be surprised if he'd spent the early '70's as a high school
dropout, doing manual labor jobs, and is just another infobahn blowhard
seeking a little stolen valor for himself. But I wouldn't be any more
surprised if his claims were fairly accurate, either
My limited experience with such things teaches me that shady facts
sometimes conceal a deeper truth rather than a shallow lie, and I'm no
longer so quick to dismiss such claims out of hand as so-called "stolen
valor" cases. A lot of really weird stiff really does go on amongst all
the bullshit people sling.
My own deceased father's naval WWII service records were destroyed in a
depository fire, and his subsequent career designing highly classified
space and aeronautic spy stuff for the government could not be
documented in any way, not by so much as a paystub. The undisclosed and
undocumented "life insurance" payout after he died was nice, though.
Heck, I even had a classmate in law school who was thought to be an
ordinary Marine reservist, until two "FBI agents" removed him from class
about the time Gulf War I was starting. On his way out he gave me some
papers relating to class projects, but the bookbag also contained a
draft resume with several gaps listed as "U.S. Government-job
description unavailable." Then there was that "crazy foreign lady" in
the locked mental ward, until she was forcibly removed by some burly men
in ill-fitting suits, last seen by the pursuing local deputies being
carried into an untraceable Lear Jet.
Jeff
Aratzio
"quite common"
Can you quote a percentage? Actual numbers or is this all just a
guess?
--
Observer
wrote:
C'mon Bob, all Gunner has are lies. If he did all the things he
claimed to do, he'd be older than Moses.
__
"I don't know any straight-talking Republicans, do you?
I can't get a straight answer out of any Republicans.
I Don't know what they're talking about" - Bill O'Reilly
Bob Brock
wrote:
Yeah, I know. The odd thing this time is that he usually manages to
make the lie believable if you ignore all the other stuff that he has
said over the years. In this particular case, he can't even keep the
lies straight from post to post within the same thread.
Jeff McCann
[snip]
> "quite common"
You just screwed up an attempt at a two-word quote, yet you seem to want
actual numbers from me? My point stands without need of some specific
percentage. Did you have some other issue I missed?
> Can you quote a percentage? Actual numbers or is this all just a
> guess?
Now, don't be silly. How does one count the actual number of instances
where the government was deceived, in this case, about the actual ages
of inductees, to obtain a percentage? It is inherently not subject to
accurate measurement.
But that does not mean anything else is "just a guess." I can make
relative judgments and extrapolate from known occurrences. If I know,
lets say, four cases out of, lets say, about 200 WWII vets who've
discussed their service with me, I can reasonably infer that there were
likely thousands of examples among the millions who served. So I
shouldn't be surprised if I encounter a fifth example sometime. Absent
a billion dollar forensic audit, that's about as accurate as it gets.
mariposas rand mair fheal
Jeff McCann <NoS...@NoThanks.org> wrote:
> Aratzio wrote:
> [snip]
bigger snip
gunner can do the -i could tell but then i would have to kill you- bit
but people are not expected to believe
when the evidence actually given contradicts the claim
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
call me desdenova seven seven seven seven seven
Gunner
wrote:
>>
>> Yes, gummy most assuredly is an exception to the rule.
>
>Gunner has been in my killfile for awhile now. He and others of his ilk
>took great pleasure in questioning and denigrating even the well
>established military service records of many fine men in public life for
>crass partisan political purposes, so it doesn't bother me one whit to
>see his own claims of martial valor placed under a microscope now.
You still pissed that I dissed "3 Hearts and an out" Kerry, arnt
you....
Shrug.
Gunner
Gunner
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In article <obydnQlqkfutd6nV...@earthlink.com>,
> Jeff McCann <NoS...@NoThanks.org> wrote:
>
>> Aratzio wrote:
>> [snip]
>
>bigger snip
>
>gunner can do the -i could tell but then i would have to kill you- bit
>but people are not expected to believe
>when the evidence actually given contradicts the claim
Really? Cites?
Laugh laugh laugh..hows it feel being fooled by a 15yr old cripple,
you utter spaz!
Laugh laugh laugh
Gunner
Michael A. Terrell
Tim May wrote:
>
> In article <d8KdnUiRo5PIIa7V...@earthlink.com>, Michael A.
> Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > I graduated in 1970, as well. Why did they draft me two years later,
> > and tell me I was on my way to an AFRTS TV station in Vietnam? The one
> > that was overrun a few months later? The salvaged TV transmitter was
> > shipped to my station in Alasaka, late in 1973 to use for spare parts.
>
> I graduated in 1970, too. (Thomas A. Edison High School, Alexandria,
> Virginia)
>
> Almost nobody in my senior class was drafted.
The last group of draftees in my town were taken in Aug, 1972. My
lottery number was the highest they reached that year, as well. I was
told I had five separate 4F ratings that would keep me from enlisting
when I took the first physical. Then, a few months later they drafted
me because I was working in Electronics. I started at 13, and tested
out of the three year course for broadcast engineer. Something I was
told had never been done, and was impossible.
> In fact, at my later
> class reunions we were unable to name a single guy who had been
> drafted. One volunteered for the Navy and became a Captain in the JAG
> Corps, retiring several years ago. Another was a pilot for the B-1B
> jets, but that was in the late 70s or so.
>
> None of us were sent to the meat grinder, as near as we could tell.
>
> This was out of a total class of 400+, out of a school of 1600+.
About the same size as my graduating class. 20+ of us were on the
same bus, bound for Kentucky that day.
> Over the next several years of college, the meat grinder victims faded.
> By 1974-5, we no longer interviewed those who had served as cannon
> fodder in Vietnam.
>
> By 1976-77, the fools who managed to get pulled into Vietnam were
> running begging bowls in front of Walmart or scamming the government
> for more handouts.
I'll bet you never called them that to their faces.
> The Bush War II vets are in even worse shape.
>
> Why didn't they see it all coming?
>
> (I saw the Vietnam thing coming in 1968....)
>
> I guess it's part of the Overall Plan, to extinguish 30 million, by war
> or by result of war.
>
> For the Bush War II vets, better polish those begging bowls.
YAWN. I'm more concerned for the 3000+ homeless Vietnam Era Veterans
living in the Ocala National Forest. The ones who came home with either
mental or physical problems, were spit at and called names, then dumped
onto the streets. These people are living by themselves in makeshift
shelters, and living off what they can catch in the river, or trap in
the forest. It was, and continues to be criminal the way they were
treated. A lot of them were rounded up by the police in northeastern
cities and put on a Greyhound, with a one way ticket. They have been
screwed over so many times they don't trust anyone.
Michael A. Terrell
That's odd. About half the men working at Microdyne were Veterans.
You can't much higher tech than building custom communication systems
for NASA and NOAA. They were from W.W.II, Korea, Vietnam and Desert
Storm eras. In fact, a lot of the contracts required a minimum of 10%
Veteran employment.
Michael A. Terrell
pyotr filipivich wrote:
>
> [Default] I missed the Staff Meeting but the Minutes record that
> Gunner <gun...@NOSPAM.lightspeed.net> reported Elvis on Tue, 20 May
> 2008 23:29:03 -0700 in misc.survivalism :
> >
> >>> I am waiting, I've posted that a couple times, neither gummy nor his
> >>> pals have even peeped as to how his service could have worked in the
> >>> time frame and the conditions of the time. He could claim he was in
> >>> combat after Jan 73 as an advisor to the ARVN. But the problem there
> >>> would be his VERY junior rank given his age at the time.
> >>
> >>I have no specific idea what Gunner's past may be, and I'll leave it to
> >>the readers to judge his veracity for themselves. But I do know certain
> >>things for a FACT. I KNOW men who were in combat in the US armed forces
> >>at age 16 or 17. Underage enlistment is a well-documented historical
> >>fact. I have personally helped military veterans straighten out their
> >>records, benefits and legal affairs after having done so.
>
> E.g. Col Hackworth, lied to get into the Merchant Marine, then
> used that as a means to enlist in the Regular Army.
A freinfd of mine was 15 when he left home and joined the Merchant
Marines. He was a radio operator during W.W.II. He passed away a
couple years ago.
>
> As for getting young men to do things they can't talk about, well,
> they are young ... And as Tony-san said once. "Czechoslovakia is
> nice in the spring. Err, so they tell me, I've never really been
> there."
>
> pyotr
> --
> pyotr filipivich
> The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
> better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."
strabo
> On Wed, 21 May 2008 19:04:39 -0500, in the land of alt.usenet.kooks,
> Jeff McCann <NoS...@NoThanks.org> got double secret probation for
> writing:
>
>>>>>> Nicholas
>>>>> I am waiting, I've posted that a couple times, neither gummy nor his
>>>>> pals have even peeped as to how his service could have worked in the
>>>>> time frame and the conditions of the time. He could claim he was in
>>>>> combat after Jan 73 as an advisor to the ARVN. But the problem there
>>>>> would be his VERY junior rank given his age at the time.
>>>> I have no specific idea what Gunner's past may be, and I'll leave it to
>>>> the readers to judge his veracity for themselves. But I do know certain
>>>> things for a FACT. I KNOW men who were in combat in the US armed forces
>>>> at age 16 or 17. Underage enlistment is a well-documented historical
>>>> fact. I have personally helped military veterans straighten out their
>>>> records, benefits and legal affairs after having done so.
>>> How lovely, your facts are exceptions to the rule. Rare ones at that.
>> Try not being such a dick right at of the box. My evidence suggests
>> underage enlistments were rather common in the WWII to Vietnam
>> era,before computerized record-keeping and cross-linked data bases.
>
> "quite common"
> Can you quote a percentage? Actual numbers or is this all just a
> guess?
>
What difference does it make? If you're writing a book do the research.
The fact is that the US military could accept you at age 17 with
parental approval.
At age 17 or 18 he could have gotten in a year and a fraction
in Nam with credit for two combat tours.
<snipped>
----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
Gunner
In '73, there were still some 300,000 troops in Nam IRRC.
Gunner
Tim May
Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> > I interviewed an Army officer for a position once. Never again.
> >
> > Their world is different from what we need. Maybe there's a role for
> > them as junior bank officers at Countrywide, but not at high tech
> > companies.
>
>
> That's odd. About half the men working at Microdyne were Veterans.
> You can't much higher tech than building custom communication systems
> for NASA and NOAA.
"Microdyne"? Barely heard of it.
As for "can't get much higher tech...." my company was Intel. Did some
minor work in building the first dynamic RAMs, the first
microprocessor, the first EPROM, the first this, the first that, etc.
I worked for a guy named Barrett, now Chairman of the Board, under a
guy named Andy Grove, who worked for Bob Noyce and Gordon Moore. (As in
"Moore's Law.) Noyce invented the IC, along with Jack Kilby, and Grove
made MOS practical.
Yeah, "Microdyne" was definitely much higher tech. Yeah.
> They were from W.W.II, Korea, Vietnam and Desert
> Storm eras. In fact, a lot of the contracts required a minimum of 10%
> Veteran employment.
We solved the "contracts required" affirmative action bullshit by
refusing any and all G-jobs offered to us by the DoD.
I was involved in one particular plea by Sandia Corporation, the
radiation-hardening people, to contract with us on our research on
single event upsets (soft errors) in memories and processors. We had
done the pioneering work on this, way ahead of what the Official
Community was doing...they were mired in the total dose world while we
were discovering the real frontier.
We told them to go pound sand, that we didn't work for government
peanuts, that we refused to hire quotas of Nam basket cases sent our
way, and that in fact we hired virtually nobody with a government job
background.
They spluttered, but that was the end of it. Oh, sure, they tried their
VHSIC and other boondoggle chip programs. Which just left them even
more dependent than ever on our x86 processors.
Several other times the government "strongly encouraged" Intel to "play
ball" in the old way, the way Fairchild, Lockheed, Collins Radio, and
others had played ball. Intel refused.
We didn't want the strings, the spooks running around in our factories,
and, yes, the requirement that a quota of "sheep dipped" ex-CIA,
ex-DoD, ex-government types be hired.
Only in the last 15 years has Intel been effectively forced into
cooperating with the varmints in D.C., and that was only because they
said "Play ball or find yourself legislated out of the market."
And people wonder why some folks try to drive airplanes into D.C.
buildings?
A 50 MT nuke is what is needed to solve the Washington Problem.
Fucking retards.
--Tim May
mariposas rand mair fheal
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> That's odd. About half the men working at Microdyne were Veterans.
at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
call me john desdenova seven seven seven seven seven
Gunner
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In article <w7ednTG1DoSvY6nV...@earthlink.com>,
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> That's odd. About half the men working at Microdyne were Veterans.
>
>at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
>exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar
Thats one of the most impressive missives you have ever written.
Sadly
Gunner
Ed Huntress
"Gunner" <gun...@NOSPAM.lightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:guba341qhf5lfubas...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 21 May 2008 23:14:20 -0700, mariposas rand mair fheal
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <w7ednTG1DoSvY6nV...@earthlink.com>,
>> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> That's odd. About half the men working at Microdyne were Veterans.
>>
>>at yoyodyne they were all veterans of the psychic wars
>>exiled from the eighth dimension where the winds of limbo roar
>
> Thats one of the most impressive missives you have ever written.
>
> Sadly
>
>
> Gunner
"Impressive"? I thought he forgot his meds.
To hell with sending the Mexicans back. We're going to deport Marigold back
home...as soon as there's room available on a Mars Lander.
--
Ed Huntress
Aratzio
<NoS...@NoThanks.org> bloviated:
>Aratzio wrote:
>> Can you quote a percentage? Actual numbers or is this all just a
>> guess?
>
>Now, don't be silly. How does one count the actual number of instances
>where the government was deceived, in this case, about the actual ages
>of inductees, to obtain a percentage? It is inherently not subject to
>accurate measurement.
But you will try.
>
>But that does not mean anything else is "just a guess." I can make
>relative judgments and extrapolate from known occurrences. If I know,
>lets say, four cases out of, lets say, about 200 WWII vets who've
>discussed their service with me, I can reasonably infer that there were
>likely thousands of examples among the millions who served. So I
>shouldn't be surprised if I encounter a fifth example sometime. Absent
>a billion dollar forensic audit, that's about as accurate as it gets.
>
>
You consider 2% common? The point was that the underage enlistments
are the exception. Unless 2% has suddenly become synonymous with
common that would define exception.
Societal, economic and geographic demographics play a large part in
underage enlistments. So unless you can compare a broader sample you
are guessing and not with any reliability.
Aratzio
<str...@flashlight.net> bloviated:
Because that was in reference to McCanns claim that underage
enlistments were common. They were not. They were as I stated the
exception.
>If you're writing a book do the research.
>The fact is that the US military could accept you at age 17 with
>parental approval.
I did say that, if you had been following.
>
>At age 17 or 18 he could have gotten in a year and a fraction
>in Nam with credit for two combat tours.
Did you read what gummy wrote?