Critique of Beginner's Gear
Iam4guns2
that I belong to (the Silver Circle). We are about to vote on this and
would like some opinions. Please remember everyone that the list is a
minimum requirement, and should be viewed as such.
Silver Circle
(Individual Bug Out Bag List)
(This list must be filled by every member and are the minimum equiptment
requirements for each member.)
Large ALICE pack & Frame
2 Camo Fatige shirt & pants
1 qt cantee & belt holder
1 bottle of water purification tablets
Hunting/Survival Knife
Swiss Army Knife (Large)
1 8' x 10' Camo or Green Tarp
1 Folding Shovel or Machette
1 set insulated underwear
1 AA Minimag Flashlight Black
16 AA batteries ni-cad
Solar Battery Charger (4 AA model)
40 channel 5 watt C.B. handheld
50' Nylon Rope (green or black)
Insect Repellent (i.e. Deep Woods Off)
Metal Canteen Cup
Metal G.I. Mess Kit
Eating Utensils (Fork, Knife, Spoon Combo)
Signal Mirror
Whistle (Police Style)
First Aid Kit (see Personal First Aid Kit List)
3 days supply of food (min. 3 MRE's)
Water Resistant Boots (green or black)
Compass
disposable cigarette lighter
Brass Wire 2-3 ft
Small Magnifying Glass
1 spool 5-8 lb fishing line
10 long shank fish hooks
5 large eyed sewing needles
Camo Tabogon
1 box Water proof matches
1 o.d. green sleeping bag
New Testament Bible (green if possible)
(6) 1 qt ZipLock Freezer Bags
Green Rain Poncho
1 Bar Soap (Antibacterial Soap)
1 Towel & 1 bathcloth
3 socks (1 thermal pair)
Toothbrush & Paste
Gloves (Leather)
1 Sterno Can
Ruger 10/22 Rifle
>8 clips (10 rnds each)
500 .22LR hollowpoint rnds
SAS Survival Manual
PERSONAL FIRST AID KIT LIST
Asprin (25 tablets)
Tylenol (25 tablets)
Intestinal Sedative (25 tablets)
Antobiotic (25 tablets)
Antihistamine (25 tablets)
1 small bottle of iodine
Surgical Blades (x2)
Butterfly Sutures (1 package)
4 x 4 Dressings (x 12)
1 roll of 1" Silk Tape
Multivitamin Tablets (100 tablets)
1 tube antibiotic ointment
1 pair tweezers (Swiss Army Knife)
1 small pair of scissors (Swiss Army Knife)
1 toe nail clippers
12 alcohol prep pads
Iam4guns2
Survivalist
Silver Circle Member
Thomas R. Schwerdt
Iam4guns2 <iam4...@aol.com> wrote:
>These are the requirements for any new group member to the survival group
>that I belong to (the Silver Circle). We are about to vote on this and
>would like some opinions. Please remember everyone that the list is a
>minimum requirement, and should be viewed as such.
Okay, is the purpose of this bag for short-term (Til you can get to
your cache) or long term (all you will have, unless you scavenge)?
I'll try to make my comments as generalized as possible -- Add a bit
more for long-term, strip it down for short-term. I'm also speaking
from the perspective of a backpacker.
>(This list must be filled by every member and are the minimum equiptment
>requirements for each member.)
>
>Large ALICE pack & Frame
Why require an ALICE pack? There are a variety of commercial packs
that may fit individual tastes and techniques better.
>2 Camo Fatige shirt & pants
What about socks and underwear? I'd trade one set of shirt and pants
for two sets of underwear and socks.
> 1 qt cantee & belt holder
I wouldn't require the belt holder -- if it works for the individual,
fine -- personally, I prefer it in my side right top pouch of my backpack.
>1 bottle of water purification tablets
>Hunting/Survival Knife
>Swiss Army Knife (Large)
Purification tablets are great. There are also very lightweight filters
that will go down to the 1 micron level, and pump (by hand) at a rate
of about 1 pint per minute, yielding safe, drinkable water. Knives
are a must, but again, I would let individuals make their own choice,
perhaps have a selection of "recommended" blades that they must choose
one or two of. Depending on the scenario, a Spyderco knife is lighter
than almost all Swiss Army style knives, and is as useful in the woods
as most of the other gadgets are only useful on technology.
>1 8' x 10' Camo or Green Tarp
>1 Folding Shovel or Machette
>1 set insulated underwear
>1 AA Minimag Flashlight Black
>16 AA batteries ni-cad
Seems excessive, unless this is for a long-term bag.
>Solar Battery Charger (4 AA model)
>40 channel 5 watt C.B. handheld
>50' Nylon Rope (green or black)
>Insect Repellent (i.e. Deep Woods Off)
Are you talking about the aerosol or pump spray? That is a MAJOR waste
of weight. Get the "Jungle Juice" stuff, or anything that is 90%+ of
DEET -- takes about 5 drops per application, and you get more protection
from a 1 oz bottle than a 16 oz aerosol
>Metal Canteen Cup
>Metal G.I. Mess Kit
>Eating Utensils (Fork, Knife, Spoon Combo)
Too much junk. I've backpacked up to a month with a bowl, spoon, and
a shared cooking pot (Call it a metal canteen cup) Why bring along
yet another knife, only useful for eating? How about a sharpening
stone instead? Also, forks and most of a mess kit can be nice to have,
but they weigh too much for the use you do get out of 'em.
>Signal Mirror
>Whistle (Police Style)
>First Aid Kit (see Personal First Aid Kit List)
>3 days supply of food (min. 3 MRE's)
>Water Resistant Boots (green or black)
I'd suggest a spare pair of sneakers, and extra laces.
heavy thread and a needle would be good, too. NOT a regular
sewing needle, but a heavy leather needle.
>Compass
>disposable cigarette lighter
>Brass Wire 2-3 ft
Eh? What's the particular use for this? Brass is kinda heavy, and may be
replaceable with something lighter.
>Small Magnifying Glass
>1 spool 5-8 lb fishing line
>10 long shank fish hooks
>5 large eyed sewing needles
>Camo Tabogon
What is a Tabogon?
>1 box Water proof matches
>1 o.d. green sleeping bag
>New Testament Bible (green if possible)
>(6) 1 qt ZipLock Freezer Bags
Get a couple of trash bags too, for the INSIDE of your backpack.
>Green Rain Poncho
Make sure it covers all your pack and junk too -- many are too small.
>1 Bar Soap (Antibacterial Soap)
>1 Towel & 1 bathcloth
I guess -- why not just a flannel shirt doing double duty? Also, get the
VERY concentrated liquid soap, sold in camping stores.
>3 socks (1 thermal pair)
>Toothbrush & Paste
>Gloves (Leather)
>1 Sterno Can
>
>Ruger 10/22 Rifle
>>8 clips (10 rnds each)
>500 .22LR hollowpoint rnds
I'd rather carry a Browning Buckmark -- would fit in my pack too. Also,
i'd probably carry a Commander size .45, and 100 rds of ammo.
Holster for both.
Abe D. Lockman
(Iam4guns2) wrote:
> These are the requirements for any new group member to the survival group
> that I belong to (the Silver Circle). We are about to vote on this and
> would like some opinions. Please remember everyone that the list is a
> minimum requirement, and should be viewed as such.
>
> Silver Circle
> (Individual Bug Out Bag List)
> (This list must be filled by every member and are the minimum equiptment
> requirements for each member.)
{list of items deleted}
It's rather difficult to comment on this without your specifying: what
scenarios you hope to survive; for how long; where; in what
size/composition groups; with what travel (if any) to what sort of
destination layout (if any).
But two questions for now:
- why need the boots be green or black???
- if this is a group, why have every member carry a .22, rather than
have a group-wide assortment?
adl
Kevin/Trish McElhiney
says...(all his stuff gone for now)
>It's rather difficult to comment on this without your specifying: what
>scenarios you hope to survive; for how long; where; in what
>size/composition groups; with what travel (if any) to what sort of
>destination layout (if any).
>
>But two questions for now:
>
> - why need the boots be green or black???
>
> - if this is a group, why have every member carry a .22, rather than
>have a group-wide assortment?
>
>adl
Well, I'll jump in since Mr. Iam4... hasn't come back. These are
educated guesses:
- the group would want to be attired identically or as nearly so
as possible so as to be able to pick each other out in a crowd
or in a situation involving attack, gunfire, whatever.
- a group standard weapon enables the group to have one kind of
spare parts, one kind of ammo, everyone can pick up anyone else's
weapon and fire it immediately.
A question, too, if I may. How do you hook up with a group recruiting
members in your community? Preparedness Expos (this year for me in
Orlando), gun shows?
How'd I do?
Trish in Florida
Brian Dolge
>Silver Circle
>(Individual Bug Out Bag List)
>(This list must be filled by every member and are the minimum equiptment
>requirements for each member.)
>
rally point where better facilities are available. As someone else noted
it is hard to do a real critque without better information, what you are
avoiding, where you are(climate), how long you plan to live off this,
etc.
As a general note I think a BOB should be at most a small ruck,
preferably a belt pack, so that you can stow it easily in your car trunk
and thus probably never be very far from it.
>2 Camo Fatige shirt & pants
>1 qt cantee & belt holder
I use a 2 qt canteen. Water is a critical and intermitently available
resource.
>1 bottle of water purification tablets
>Hunting/Survival Knife
>Swiss Army Knife (Large)
I would add a leatherman or paratool type pliers, while somewhat
duplicative of the SAK the pliers can be a godsend. you also might
consider a jabsaw type hacksaw.
>1 8' x 10' Camo or Green Tarp
>1 Folding Shovel or Machette
>1 set insulated underwear
>1 AA Minimag Flashlight Black
My kit contains chemical lightsticks, which last longer, give more light,
and don't have batteries to rotate.
>16 AA batteries ni-cad
>Solar Battery Charger (4 AA model)
I agree with the poster who said this is a lot of batteries. Also why
the charger if you are on your way to a better equipped place?
>40 channel 5 watt C.B. handheld
>50' Nylon Rope (green or black)
>Insect Repellent (i.e. Deep Woods Off)
>Metal Canteen Cup
>Metal G.I. Mess Kit
>Eating Utensils (Fork, Knife, Spoon Combo)
A lot of eating stuff for someone with no stove.
>Signal Mirror
>Whistle (Police Style)
>First Aid Kit (see Personal First Aid Kit List)
>3 days supply of food (min. 3 MRE's)
3 MRE's is enough food if you are sitting around for three days, but a
person on the move or working will need significantly more. I can send
you my article on a 96 hour food supply if you would like.
>Water Resistant Boots (green or black)
>Compass
A map would also be a good idea.
>disposable cigarette lighter
I would recomend a metal match/blazer type thing for most uses. Also
doesn't duplicate the waterproof matches?
>Brass Wire 2-3 ft
>Small Magnifying Glass
Why? Also see the SAK
>1 spool 5-8 lb fishing line
>10 long shank fish hooks
>5 large eyed sewing needles
>Camo Tabogon
>1 box Water proof matches
>1 o.d. green sleeping bag
>New Testament Bible (green if possible)
>(6) 1 qt ZipLock Freezer Bags
I would add several small plastic trash bags and several large garden
trash bags. Both have a million uses around the house.
>Green Rain Poncho
>1 Bar Soap (Antibacterial Soap)
>1 Towel & 1 bathcloth
>3 socks (1 thermal pair)
>Toothbrush & Paste
Toilet paper
>Gloves (Leather)
>1 Sterno Can
Try hexamine tabs, lighter and less messy. Or skip it and forage for
fuel.
>
>Ruger 10/22 Rifle
>>8 clips (10 rnds each)
>500 .22LR hollowpoint rnds
In answer to another post, definately standerdize(double sp) weapons.
The ability to exchange ammo and parts is vital to a group in lean times.
Also I am assume members can carry additional weapons if desired.
>
>SAS Survival Manual
>
I would add a pad of paper and a pencil stub. Again, no real weight or
volume increase and too many uses to mention.
>PERSONAL FIRST AID KIT LIST
>Asprin (25 tablets)
>Tylenol (25 tablets)
>Intestinal Sedative (25 tablets)
>Antobiotic (25 tablets)
Which one and for what? Antibiotics are very tricky things. If you
really need them, you are probably in no shape to travel.
>Antihistamine (25 tablets)
>1 small bottle of iodine
Why? Your WP tabs should be iodine, and providine soap or scrub sets are
better for washing up. Iodine is not a good choice for clensing wounds
either, use Bactine.
Also I would add a handful of NoDoz or something similar.
>Surgical Blades (x2)
Why? you have no other surgical gear(and that's probably a good thing)
so what will this be used for?
>Butterfly Sutures (1 package)
>4 x 4 Dressings (x 12)
>1 roll of 1" Silk Tape
I recomend 2 rolls 1" and 1 roll 3". Again, too handy to run out of.
>Multivitamin Tablets (100 tablets)
Why so many?
>1 tube antibiotic ointment
>1 pair tweezers (Swiss Army Knife)
>1 small pair of scissors (Swiss Army Knife)
>1 toe nail clippers
>12 alcohol prep pads
>
I would add:
a wilderness medicine book,
an assortment of Bandaids,
3 pressure dressings(regular sanitary napkins or army surplus versions)
good for serious wounds/bleeding,
2 ACE bandages for sprains and splints,
3 triangular bandages for use in both of the above situations,
2 vaseline dressings for covering burns, compound fractures and
eviserations,
1 cast liner for splints,
10 rubber gloves and a mask to help prevent infections to both parties,
a thermometer and a stethascope are both small, light and terribly
informative(about whether someone needs antibiotics for example).
The important thing to remember about a first aid kit is that you will
probably be using it on somebody else. People with serious injuries
often can't help themselves, people with minor injuries are better off if
they keep moving(Apply common sense when using the precedeing sentence)
>Iam4guns2
>Survivalist
>Silver Circle Member
Generally a good list, if a little heavy for my tastes. Good luck!
Abe D. Lockman
McElhiney) wrote:
{deletion}
> Well, I'll jump in since Mr. Iam4... hasn't come back. These are
> educated guesses:
>
> - the group would want to be attired identically or as nearly so
> as possible so as to be able to pick each other out in a crowd
> or in a situation involving attack, gunfire, whatever.
Probably not a great idea short of real war. And in that case military
style boots (or camis, etc.) seem very popular in certain circles (beats
me why, but that's a different thread); something different would be
needed.
>
> - a group standard weapon enables the group to have one kind of
> spare parts, one kind of ammo, everyone can pick up anyone else's
> weapon and fire it immediately.
But having everyone have a .22 rifle and no one have anything better would
seem to lose an important advantage of having a group: the ability to
diversify equipment (as well as skills).
{deletion}
Logan VanLeigh
>
> These are the requirements for any new group member to the survival group
> that I belong to (the Silver Circle). We are about to vote on this and
Good concept if you're forming a highly-mobile paramilitary group and
are willing to sugjugate your personal desires, tastes, etc for the
effectiveness of the group. Bad idea if you're looking toward a larger
pool from which to pull recruits. I'd recommend you compare an average
'necessary list' for a so-called wagon train forming in St Joe during
1840-1880 for an idea of the depth of standardization they required.
Your depth of standardization approaches that of the normal infantry and
exceds that of an SF unit.
Logan
us...@abcs.com
give my 2 cents worth. If you consider it a load of bulldookey, well.
. .so be it.
kmce...@cftnet.com (Kevin/Trish McElhiney) wrote:
>In article <lockman-0304...@lockman.cais.com>, loc...@cais.com
>says...
>>
>>In article <4js5p7$q...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, iam4...@aol.com
>>(Iam4guns2) wrote:
>>
>> - if this is a group, why have every member carry a .22, rather than
>>have a group-wide assortment?
>>
>>adl
>Well, I'll jump in since Mr. Iam4... hasn't come back. These are
>educated guesses:
> - a group standard weapon enables the group to have one kind of
> spare parts, one kind of ammo, everyone can pick up anyone else's
> weapon and fire it immediately.
Each member of the group should be trained and familiar with all
weaponry employed by the group as a whole. Also, they should be
familiar with firearms theory and application, thereby allowing them
to pick up ANYONE's weaponry and at least utilize it in a manner that
is beneficial to their own side.
I disagree with those who would argue for a completely uniform choice
of weaponry for all members of a group. Be it in offense or defense,
any tactically viable group must have layers of engagement. For
example, the U.S. Army employs Light Machine Guns (LMG (aka M-60)),
Squad Automatic Weapons (SAW (M249)), and Individual Weapons (aka
M16). This allows them to effectively (depending, of course, upon
training and motivation of the troops) engage targets beginning at
1200 meters to 800 meters to 400 meters to 0 meters. (If they issue
bayonets, how wonderful).
I am assuming that Mr. Iam4guns2 wants such a defensive/offensive
capability. Granted, while his group may be able to legally obtain
the automatic weaponry necessary to duplicate the U.S. Army's
ordnance, he would be a fool to do so. His group could have the same
engagement spheres by obtaining off-the-shelf weaponry available at
most gun stores/shows and save beaucoup bucks.
For example : A Remington 700 Police Sniper rifle runs around $650. A
good scope (Leupold Mk3 w/ 1/4" mildot reticle, a Springfield Armory
Government 4-14x or ART-IV) will run around another $500. Mounts and
rings another $100. With practice (lots of practice) and some
judicious reloading, a shooter could very effectively engage targets
out to 1000 meters. Using other weaponry in the same manner could
further enhance the depth of their defense.
Ahh, but I'm beginning to blither. Perhaps this belongs in m.a.m.
If you want to hear more, just ask. I'm full of this stuff (or
something, anyway).
Geoffrey L. Hardin,
white-collar clockwatcher, father to a 80 lb brindle boxer,ex-green
beanie angel, non-violent heterosexual woman lover,
politically-confused (and hence, incorrect), CCW-holder, NRA
Lifemember, exceedingly handsome, teetotalling (ok, Dr.
Peppertotalling), really buffed, egotisitic, self-centered, arrogant,
taxpaying, American citizen who really wants to see a black
helicopter, but watches The Tick, instead.
But that's justy MY opinion.
Richard A. De Castro
>These are the requirements for any new group member to the survival group
>that I belong to (the Silver Circle). We are about to vote on this and
>would like some opinions. Please remember everyone that the list is a
>minimum requirement, and should be viewed as such.
>Silver Circle
>(Individual Bug Out Bag List)
>(This list must be filled by every member and are the minimum equiptment
>requirements for each member.)
What happens if someone choses something else? They can't join/play?
>Large ALICE pack & Frame
Too small and flimsy for my taste and needs. The new military pack is much
better, but much more expensive. I use a commercial Gregory pack.
>2 Camo Fatige shirt & pants
Depends what you're hiding from.
>1 qt cantee & belt holder
I carry at least two 1 qt canteens, with covers and cups. One has a stove.
>1 bottle of water purification tablets
I have a filter - much better. The tablets are too easy to ruin if they
get wet.
>Hunting/Survival Knife
>Swiss Army Knife (Large)
A larger folding lock blade, a smaller SAK, and a letherman.
>1 8' x 10' Camo or Green Tarp
>1 Folding Shovel or Machette
the uses of these seem to be mutually exclusive.
>1 set insulated underwear
Depends where you are and where you're going.
>1 AA Minimag Flashlight Black
>16 AA batteries ni-cad
>Solar Battery Charger (4 AA model)
>40 channel 5 watt C.B. handheld
I sure wouldn't put any tactical traffic out on CB's.
>50' Nylon Rope (green or black)
What for? If you plan on using it for any life support use, it should be
the right stuff (not the right color), static, block creel, 4,500# test,
at least 3/8" in dia (so you can hold it). What about leather gloves?
>Insect Repellent (i.e. Deep Woods Off)
>Metal Canteen Cup
>Metal G.I. Mess Kit
The GI messkit has been responsible for more death and disease to the US
soldier than all enemies ever faced, combined. According to a US Army
Field Sanitation class I took once. The army doesn't use them any more.
They let food get cold. They're big and heavy. They make noise.
I carry a little plastic bowl.
>Eating Utensils (Fork, Knife, Spoon Combo)
>Signal Mirror
>Whistle (Police Style)
>First Aid Kit (see Personal First Aid Kit List)
>3 days supply of food (min. 3 MRE's)
>Water Resistant Boots (green or black)
>Compass
What kind? Orienteering or lensatic?
>disposable cigarette lighter
>Brass Wire 2-3 ft
>Small Magnifying Glass
>1 spool 5-8 lb fishing line
>10 long shank fish hooks
the fishing stuff might be useful if you're in an area with lots of
fish. But, according to the USAF aircrew survival school, you'll find it
very difficult to survive on a fish diet - most freshwater fish are too
lacking in fats and oils.
And, a spool is an awful lot, why not just say 15 yards?
>5 large eyed sewing needles
>Camo Tabogon
I have no idea what you mean by this, but I think you don't mean a toboggon
(a sort of snow sled).
>1 box Water proof matches
>1 o.d. green sleeping bag
color doesn't matter, so long as it's subdued. The temperature range should
be appropriate for the conditions, and it should be synthetic (works when wet)
and lightweight (lets out the GI bags).
>New Testament Bible (green if possible)
No Jews, eh? I guess I can't join.
>(6) 1 qt ZipLock Freezer Bags
An assortment of sizes would be better. They don't have to be ziplock (a
brand name).
>Green Rain Poncho
Poncho's are useless in the rain. A goretex rainsuit is useful.
>1 Bar Soap (Antibacterial Soap)
>1 Towel & 1 bathcloth
>3 socks (1 thermal pair)
and what is the other sock supposed to be?
>Toothbrush & Paste
>Gloves (Leather)
>1 Sterno Can
>Ruger 10/22 Rifle
>>8 clips (10 rnds each)
>500 .22LR hollowpoint rnds
Well, with my choice of survival weapon (anything I'd choose, actually)
I suppose that I could have all your stuff, since I could take you out
from more than 100 yards away.
A bigger assortment or a better choice of standard arm would be good, or
if your'e not worried about defending yourself, then why bother?
>SAS Survival Manual
>PERSONAL FIRST AID KIT LIST
>Asprin (25 tablets)
why both? They're both NSAIDS, do the same thing, and shouldnt' be used
together.
>Tylenol (25 tablets)
>Intestinal Sedative (25 tablets
If you didn't have that messkit, you wouldn't need so many. 25 is too
many for short term, not enough for long term.
)
>Antobiotic (25 tablets)
very dangerous. There are at least four main catagories of antibiotics, and
you need the right one for the infection - otherwise, you're wasting them.
And, 25 is more than one course (for most), and not enough for two courses.
>Antihistamine (25 tablets)
Still a lot - 12 is more reasonable for short term. Benadryl (Diphenhydramine
HCl) is often used in the military (in the field) to help sleep.
25 mg size is not prescriptionn.
>1 small bottle of iodine
If you mean povidone-iodine (betadine), ok. Otherwise, what are you going
to do with crystaline iodine? You can use it to disinefect water....
>Surgical Blades (x2)
What for? If you have people who know anything about emergency medicine
they can carry what they need. The lay person doesn't need surgical tools.
You can shave skin well enough with a disposable bic razor.
'
>Butterfly Sutures (1 package)
what size? Steristrips might work better, but if I was your team's medic,
I'd be real worried about closing wounds.
>4 x 4 Dressings (x 12)
Too many. Carry 4 packs of 4x4 sponges (2 per pack), they work better.
Also, carry a couple of individual troop dressings, and a couple of
triangular bandages.
>1 roll of 1" Silk Tape
waterproof adhesive tape, 2" wide. more flexible.
>Multivitamin Tablets (100 tablets)
Really not needed for short term - although niacin is needed for starving
people.
>1 tube antibiotic ointment
>1 pair tweezers (Swiss Army Knife)
>1 small pair of scissors (Swiss Army Knife)
>1 toe nail clippers
>12 alcohol prep pads
All these will do is HURT. Get some betadine prep pads.
>Iam4guns2
>Survivalist
>Silver Circle Membe
Best of all, go recruit a medic (someone who has some experience, at least
a graduate of the Red Cross Emergency Responder or an EMT program.
r
--
============================================================================
deca...@netcom.com Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really!
Rick N6RCX NREMT ATP MA Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly......
Richard A. De Castro - To those who have defended it, Freedom has a flavor
deca...@pacificnet.net the Protected will never enjoy.
-Don't Tread On Me!-
I support American military forces wherever they may be. I uphold and
defend the Constitution of the United States of America. I respect and
support the office of the President of the United States. And, I hope
to support a new President in 1997.
=============================================================================
Mike S. Medintz
: Hello all, I'm pretty much tired of lurking, now. I figured I could
: give my 2 cents worth. If you consider it a load of bulldookey, well.
: . .so be it.
Aw, nothing of it. If it's on-topic, it's already a big improvement.
: Each member of the group should be trained and familiar with all
: weaponry employed by the group as a whole. Also, they should be
: familiar with firearms theory and application, thereby allowing them
: to pick up ANYONE's weaponry and at least utilize it in a manner that
: is beneficial to their own side.
However, this would be difficult for those who are not full-time soldiers.
Standardization means that there's a lot less that needs to be learned.
: I disagree with those who would argue for a completely uniform choice
: of weaponry for all members of a group. Be it in offense or defense,
: any tactically viable group must have layers of engagement. For
: example, the U.S. Army employs Light Machine Guns (LMG (aka M-60)),
: Squad Automatic Weapons (SAW (M249)), and Individual Weapons (aka
: M16). This allows them to effectively (depending, of course, upon
: training and motivation of the troops) engage targets beginning at
: 1200 meters to 800 meters to 400 meters to 0 meters. (If they issue
: bayonets, how wonderful).
If your intention is to fight. Also, it's not everywhere that one can
get a clear shot out to 1200 meters.
: I am assuming that Mr. Iam4guns2 wants such a defensive/offensive
: capability. Granted, while his group may be able to legally obtain
: the automatic weaponry necessary to duplicate the U.S. Army's
: ordnance, he would be a fool to do so. His group could have the same
: engagement spheres by obtaining off-the-shelf weaponry available at
: most gun stores/shows and save beaucoup bucks.
If they don't already have the federal tax stamps, getting the hardware
legally is unlikely at best.
: For example : A Remington 700 Police Sniper rifle runs around $650. A
: good scope (Leupold Mk3 w/ 1/4" mildot reticle, a Springfield Armory
: Government 4-14x or ART-IV) will run around another $500. Mounts and
: rings another $100. With practice (lots of practice) and some
: judicious reloading, a shooter could very effectively engage targets
: out to 1000 meters. Using other weaponry in the same manner could
: further enhance the depth of their defense.
That gives you a case of a rifle that's probably far beyond the capability
of most shooters. Also, wouldn't the Police Sniper model be just a little
delicate? Personally, I'd lean towards something cheaper, not to mention
unbreakable.
: Ahh, but I'm beginning to blither. Perhaps this belongs in m.a.m.
It could go in MAM, but why not keep it here?
: If you want to hear more, just ask. I'm full of this stuff (or
: something, anyway)
: Geoffrey L. Hardin,
: white-collar clockwatcher, father to a 80 lb brindle boxer,ex-green
: beanie angel, non-violent heterosexual woman lover,
: politically-confused (and hence, incorrect), CCW-holder, NRA
: Lifemember, exceedingly handsome, teetotalling (ok, Dr.
: Peppertotalling), really buffed, egotisitic, self-centered, arrogant,
: taxpaying, American citizen who really wants to see a black
: helicopter, but watches The Tick, instead.
: But that's justy MY opinion.
I know I said that I was jumping ship, but I saw two on-topic posts in
a row, and decided to stick around.
--
Mike S. Medintz | Say what you will about my government,
"Wise Use" isn't. | but don't insult my country.
http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~medintz
gcth...@u.washington.edu
> ...
> Small Magnifying Glass
A small plastic Fresnel lens would be
less bulky and would also weigh less.
--
George Thomas
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~gcthomas
just_us
med...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu says...
>
>I know I said that I was jumping ship, but I saw two
>on-topic posts in a row, and decided to stick around.
>
>"Wise Use" isn't. | but don't insult my country.
>http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~medintz
Great U-Turn, Mike !
Good for you,
good for me,and
Good for Misc. survivalism !
K. Stephen Griffiths
What do you plan on using it on, squirrels? Get something that can do
some real damage. The Mini-14 is nice. But an M1 Garand can really put a
hole in something. If you feel the need for a .22 for small game get some
22 pistols and learn to shoot with them.
Alex Osinski
It looks to me like the guys who started it are really into the
military gear.
Maybe I could interest them in to buyng some of mine.
Fact is, the Alice pack is not that great any more, but you can't
do better for $20. It is OK to start out or standardize with
military gear first, but expect to upgrade later.
I like the military and camo stuff a lot, but it tends to attract
more attention than I care to have. That is why most of my
military gear is in boxes and my civilian gear is in the truck.
Nowdays, people see you with a bunch of camo or military looking
gear on and they start making phone calls. It has gotten to the
point that my National Guard unit officers just put the answering
machine on during drills so they can get all the phone calls
about guys in cammies running around on the guard weekend. I
remember one guy calling to report that he saw an Army Jeep in a
neighbors driveway and somebody should check it out. My CO
informed him that we have not used jeeps for years and it was
none of our business who collected military vehicles.
Nevertheless, the guy kept calling back, thinking that some
dangerous militia was in town.
We have one armory (building) in a fairly good size town by some
other government buildings. I remember a time we had to sleep
there one Saturday night and guys were up walking around outside
fairly late just drinking and talking in the back lot. A police
helicopter kept circling around for about an hour playing its
searchlight on us, and we were at our own damn armory!
Another time, some guys got off early on Sunday and went shooting
out in the woods with their personally owned guns. There was a
dark green Huey that kept circling around just above the treetops
behind them. The next month, the company commander gave a little
talk: "no more shooting privately owned weapons while in
uniform". It seems like the pilots with CAMP have orders to
surveil and report on _anybody_ they see wearing cammies,
carrying guns and doing anything that resembles military
training. The DEA guys were a bit pissed that they had to stop
looking for pot farms and watch off duty guardsmen goofing off,
but those were the pilots' orders straight from JTF-6.
The moral of the story is that cammies, green webgear, alice
packs, and guns are a bad mix if you want to be low profile.
Your best bet is to either camo the hell out of everything and do
your stuff on private property where you know nobody will make
paranoid phone calls (hide from aircraft), or focus on civilian
gear that happens to be brown, black, tan or green. I have found
that the commercial gear does not take much modificatin to
"subdue" it. A pair of scissors for the bright tags or patches,
black or brown majic marker for the parts you can't remove, and
spray paint for the rest. Roll it in the dirt and wash it to get
the "sheen" off of it. You may have to re-waterproof it with
Scotchbrite.
You can also mix in some bright colors with your camo gear to
make it look "normal". Try a bright yellow poncho draped accross
your pack for when you are on the public trails. When you want to
go tactical, remove the bright stuff and put it in the pack or
just stash it. A little military gear is OK and will not draw
much attention.
If you wear cammies, wear real normal civilian clothes
underneath. Use shorts and collared polo shirts as your
underwear. If you have to ditch your cammies, you can look like
a preppie hiker. "Why yes ranger, I saw some of those awful
survivalist go that way..."
Also, camo your gun. Guns with folding stocks can be folded up
and carried close to the body so they are not easiy recognizable.
unless they are all black. Get radical, try big blotches of tan
or grey accross the middle of the gun. It may look like shit, but
it won't look like a gun any more. Lay it accross your other gear
and clothes and see what color or pattern adjustments you want to
make. Lay it on the ground or against a tree and blink real
fast. If you can't make it's shape out, you cammied it right.
I have found that those black "assault" cases work well to
conceal your rifle or shotgun if you wear them next to your
backpack. I got a brown strap for one and plan on adding some
velcro spots so I can attach patches and stuff to it to cover the
shape and break up the color. People cannot tell what it is
unless they get close, even then, they probably have to be into
guns to tell, otherwise, it just looks like a modern shoulder
bag. (wear it tucked back as far as you can)
So, let's ad these items to the basic gear list for new
survivors.
Gun cases that do not quite look like a gun cases.
A big sports bag to carry your webgear and "green" stuff in
public.
Leatherman is superior to Swiss knife or Gerber tool.
As for weapons:
Anything is good to start out but eventually you need:
A service handgun (9mm .45 40 S&W, .38, .357 or .44)
A 12g shotgun (pump or auto)
A centerfire rifle (best to get a para military model)
A .22 or GOOD airgun (Ruger 10/22 is fine)
Lots of ammo, your bare minimum should be enough to load all of
your clips twice for automatic rifles and pistols. For
revolvers, 100rds, Shotguns 50rds (a mix of different types) for
your .22, 150 rds. For storage and long term survival, go with at
least a case of ammo or 1,000 rds (whichever is more) per gun.
Iam4guns2
Well, if you would have looked at the post it say that this is a
requirement list for beginner's. My members my update the gear at any
time. My choice is an AR-15 myself.
Iam4guns2
Survivalist
Silver Circle Member (local survival group)
http://members.aol.com/Iam4guns2/index.htm
gcth...@u.washington.edu
> Now this is a really cool thread.
> A big sports bag to carry your webgear and "green" stuff in
> public.
The sports bags designed for carrying hockey equipment
are about the biggest I've seen. They often come in
very NON-subdued colors!
mntc...@isu.edu
Well lets see..... a lot of technology on this list, a lot of
individual submission and affiliation....
Ok, now it's my turn,,, has anyone considered making themselves a
viable commodity in a survival situation? I am not talking about
a shooter or killer I am thinking more of a person who has the
knowledge and practice to survive and help others do the same.
Personaly I think this list is too militant to be survivalist, I
believe it is better to fade away than to blast and get blasted -
even a ruger 10/22 looks worse than it really is.
This is my proposal... learn the plants and animals, know what
they can be used for and what is useful in them. People have been
living off the land for countless millinia without the technology
we posses and they still do it today. Go native.
Technology is nice but it is not the end all and you have to know
it will break down someday.
It looks to me like this list is 'Defensive' well if you have
somthing to defend I guess it must be good but what will there be
to defend and what will you have to take away? Always remember that
there will be someone stronger, smarter and/or better armed. If
you are percieved as a threat, you will be dealt with as one. If
considered a resource you will be exploited, but if your not
considered at all you will be free.
How does one achieve a point of not being considered? Avoid
posturing... watch for trouble and don't invest yourself in some-
thing you don't really need.
The best survivors I have ever run across are living in S. Africa.
They have found a resource that lasts all year round, when it falls
from the tree it stays useable for up to six years, and they never
have to walk more than three-five miles to get it. It's there when
there is drought, famin and political upheaval. We arn't so lucky
the Indians who lived here had to migrate during the year to
exploit the environment and I would too but there is nothing out
there that you need that you can't get. There are times when it
is necessary to fight and then if your better fed, healthier and
know the terrain better you may not even need that gun. Reduce the
risks increase the opportunities and do it.
People are resources for their diversity alone and knowledge is your
greatest weapon.
Stop thinking militant combat and start thinking survival.
Iam4guns2
<<Stop thinking militant combat and start thinking survival.>>
I agree. However, the post did not ask for an evaluation of my methods for
survival just the gear. As a matter of fact, I don't see how you can even
state what my methods are since none have been posted.
I agree, that we should not be looking for trouble, but you must be
defensive in your posture and must be armed. Running around in the woods
like Indians , in my humble opinion, will get you killed.
The list has been brought before my group, and we have reached a decision
I will post the final list later.
Iam4guns2
Thanks for the help on this one. My group has met over the weekend and the
following was adopted into our bi-laws with a review scheduled in 6 months
of this policy. Some new things were added and some stuff was changed.
Silver Circle Survival Group(Individual Bug Out Bag List)
(This list is to be used for all new recruits. It should be viewed as a
"beginner's list", and can be updated at anytime after completing the
list.
All updated equiptment must be cleared throught logistics. This is the
minimum requirement for every member. Failure to comply within a 3 month
period
results in a class 2 displinary action set forth by the Captain.)
CLOTHING
2 Camo Fatige shirt & pants
1 set insulated underwear(recommended dark color)
Water Resistant Boots (green or black)
Camo Ski-Mask
Gloves (Leather)
Green Rain Poncho (big enough for pack)
FOOD
1 qt cantee & belt holder (x2)
1 bottle of water purification tablets
Metal Canteen Cup
Metal G.I. Mess Kit
Eating Utensils (Fork, Knife, Spoon Combo)
3 days supply of food (min. 3 MRE's)
EQUIPTMENT
Large ALICE pack & Frame
Hunting/Survival Knife with whetstone
Swiss Army Knife (Large, Swiss Champion recommended)
1 8' x 10' Camo or Green Tarp
1 6' x 6' blanket or sleeping bag (green in color)
1 Folding Shovel or Machette
1 AA Minimag Flashlight Black
16 AA batteries ni-cad
Solar Battery Charger (4 AA model)
40 channel 5 watt C.B. handheld (This unit will need 10 AA's)
50' Nylon Rope (green or black)
Insect Repellent (i.e. Deep Woods Off, Permetherine)
Signal Mirror
Whistle (Police Style)
First Aid Kit (see Personal First Aid Kit List)
Compass (Will be issued a county wide map, a tri-states map, and 5 mile
map)
disposable cigarette lighter
1 box Water proof matches
Small Magnifying Glass
Brass Wire 2-3 ft (trapping wire)
1 spool 5-8 lb fishing line
10 long shank fish hooks
5 large eyed sewing needles
(6) 1 qt ZipLock Freezer Bags
1 Towel & 1 bathcloth
3 socks (1 thermal pair)
1 Sterno Can
WEAPONS
Ruger 10/22 Rifle (with plastic stock)
>8 clips (10 rnds each)
500 .22LR hollowpoint rnds
Rifle Cleaning Kit
BOOKS (REFERENCE)
SAS Survival Manual
New Testament Bible (green, small pock size if possible)
PERSONAL/FIRST AID KIT LIST
Asprin (25 tablets)
Tylenol (25 tablets)
Intestinal Sedative (25 tablets)
Antobiotic (25 tablets)
Antihistamine (25 tablets)
1 small bottle of iodine
Surgical Blades (x2)
Butterfly Sutures (1 package)
4 x 4 Dressings (x 12)
1 roll of 1" Silk Tape
Multivitamin Tablets (100 tablets)
1 tube antibiotic ointment
1 pair tweezers (Swiss Army Knife)
1 small pair of scissors (Swiss Army Knife)
1 toe nail clippers
12 alcohol prep pads
Toothbrush & Paste
1 Bar Soap or liquid consentrated soap (Antibacterial Soap)
Alex Osinski
><<big snip>>
>
><<Stop thinking militant combat and start thinking survival.>>
>
how you can even state what my methods are since none have been posted.
>
>I agree, that we should not be looking for trouble, but you must be
>defensive in your posture and must be armed. Running around in the woods
>like Indians , in my humble opinion, will get you killed.
>
>Survivalist
>Silver Circle Member (local survival group)
<minor snips>
Regarding militancy and alternative skills
I support the idea of developing alternative skills for economic
survival, but the advice I have to give on that subject is limited to
those particular skills. I.e mechanics, cooking, horse training, herbal
medicine.
No shit, your herbal specialist should have a bag or box of that stuff
along, or your survival mechanic should have a certain kind of portable
tool set to take in the maintenance vehicle, but this is outside the
realm of BASIC gear.
I have no beef with the drop-out-and-do-nature-crowd, but fair weather
citizenship is not for me. If the shit hits the fan and I decide to go
out and live like a caveman forever, then I lost. The alternative
economy of barter and whatnot is already in place for a lot of us, so
that is something we already do to a great extent, kind of like the way
we no longer need to talk about how to drive a car.
I think a good focus for the survival group should be a combination of
evacuation and retreat preparation. You prep your retreat and a vehicle
plan for evacuating to the retreat and from the retreat if you have to.
Maybe we should start a different thread on what makes for a good
survival road convoy like you would use to evacuate in force in case of a
big disaster or riot. i.e rendevous at a spot, set recon for the evac
route, commo, prodecure if you run into hostile roadblocks, ect.
Mark Kermitt
I have to start by saying Thank You for bringing up a topic related to
survival! Its nice to see some folks still care about this newsgroup and
still contribute some good stuff. This list seems fairly complete, and I
already stashed a copy for future reference. It goes without saying that
opinions are like ...well we know the end to that one... but we all have
differences of opinions and you asked for ours. I have to say, I
appreciated some of the input already from osinski and the big D. Here's
my opinion, remember that my background is 7 years of forest service, 2.5
years of law enforcement/swat and no military. My hobbies run the gamut
from small game hunting to trail motorbike riding, from solo backpacking
to jeep clubs.
>Silver Circle
>(Individual Bug Out Bag List)
>(This list must be filled by every member and are the minimum
equiptment
>requirements for each member.)
I'm an advocate of free agency. I believe that individuals should carry
what works for them, perhaps starting with what the group suggests, but
not requires.
>Large ALICE pack & Frame
Ouch, I haven't carried an external frame pack for over 7 years, they
just don't fit some folks (me in specific). If I've got to hump a pack
over a few miles, I want it comfortable. My MountainSmith and Arcteryx
packs are comfortable mile after mile. If I want camoflage, I have a
couple cammo 6X6 ground sheets with elastic around the edges (a
seemstress sewed it in for about $8) that can be tightened to make a pack
cover or loosened to become my ground sheet or rain fly.
>2 Camo Fatige shirt & pants
Valid opinions already rendered on this matter. More of an attention
grabber than a benifit now-a-days.
>1 qt cantee & belt holder
Are you half camel? I drink between 4-6 quarts per day when hiking. The
hard military canteens slosh really bad. The cheaper and better
alternative is the disposable 1 liter bottles that coke comes in. They
collapse to the volume you desire, thus don't slosh. Can't beat the
price either! A 10 quart MSR Dromedary bag adds a lot of versitility.
>1 bottle of water purification tablets
OK, I carry a bottle too, but you have to use them within a year of
opening the bottle or they go bad. Additionally they taste bad and can
be dangerous for folks with thyroid problems. I carry an MSR water works,
perhaps one for every four members. There are cheaper filters that will
do the job as well, this is just personal preference.
>Hunting/Survival Knife
Gerber BMF, Buck General, Kabar USMC (any that match the size work-heavy
but useful)
>Swiss Army Knife (Large)
Any multiplyer tool is a bit more flexible/versitile
>1 8' x 10' Camo or Green Tarp
Absolutely!
>1 Folding Shovel or Machette
Skip the Machette, grab an axe/hatchet
>1 set insulated underwear
NO COTTON! Polypro/bergelene stuff only! EMS Zip-T's are awesome.
>1 AA Minimag Flashlight Black
Why? To dim to move by. The Petzl Micro headlamp weighs only 5 ounces
and uses AA batteries (4-5 hours on one pair of alkalines)
>16 AA batteries ni-cad
>Solar Battery Charger (4 AA model)
Maybe, try it before you buy it, I've had poor luck with nicad
performance, but they do beat nothing. I wonder how well solar stuff
will hold up to EMP. Any guesses?
>40 channel 5 watt C.B. handheld
Good, not private, but good. Campmor has some more private, non-licensed
radios for about the same price (1-800-campmor). Radioshack has some 40
channel cb's with weather bands too.
>50' Nylon Rope (green or black)
50-100' of parachute cord is good, but a group item should be a couple 10.
5-11mm climbing ropes with the skills to use them. Add to this a couple
'biners and 20-40' of 1" webbing.
>Insect Repellent (i.e. Deep Woods Off)
Good idea, jungle juice is more concentrated (for better or for worse).
>Metal Canteen Cup
>Metal G.I. Mess Kit
>Eating Utensils (Fork, Knife, Spoon Combo)
Burned lips and cold food... I prefer lexan camping cups, eating out of
my pan lid or the bag (mountain house freeze dried foods require no
dishes to be cleaned).
>Signal Mirror
>Whistle (Police Style)
Good idea, but save the weight of the mirror by simply using the one on
your compass. I like the fox 40 whistle, but they all work well in dry
weather (worthless in snow and fog, it absorbs the sound)
>3 days supply of food (min. 3 MRE's)
Freeze dried camping food, lipton pastas, dried potatoes, dried eggs,
oatmeal, lipton soups give you better tasting foods, less weight, more
variety and lower cost.
>Water Resistant Boots (green or black)
Full leather heavy hiking boots are my preference, but will set you back
$200. What ever the boots, bring along some silicon in some form. I
like the green Biwell available at REI.
>Compass
Silva Ranger is probably the best on the market. Adjustable declination,
large sighting mirror, angle guage and 2 degree increments make it a
great tool for the field. $45 on the down side, but every forester
carries one. Nothing beats the adjustable declination, but learn how to
use it. What about a few maps (1:250,000 overview, 1:24,000 for detail).
>disposable cigarette lighter
I'm a fan of lifeboat matches, strike anywheres and a magnesium
firestarter.
>Brass Wire 2-3 ft
Snare wire? I'd assume, but bailing wire works good for field repair,
duct tape is a must as well.
>Small Magnifying Glass
Jewelers lupe is nice, great if you need to read fine details on a map.
>1 spool 5-8 lb fishing line
>10 long shank fish hooks
>5 large eyed sewing needles
ok, how about an entire set of flies too.
>Camo Tabogon
??????????
>1 box Water proof matches
>1 o.d. green sleeping bag
I prefer good quality comercial bags, I'd stay away from an older heavier
bag, spend some cash here and you'll sleep well.
>New Testament Bible (green if possible)
A ranger handbook, or better yet a botany book would be a nice addition.
>(6) 1 qt ZipLock Freezer Bags
ok, add some small nalgene bottles too, they hold lots of good stuff and
last longer.
>Green Rain Poncho
Rain pants are an absolute must! Wet legs are cold. Rain suit is warmer
and easier to wear than poncho's, cost about the same via 1-800-campmor.
Gaitors are a plus if you plan on walking in wet grass.
>1 Bar Soap (Antibacterial Soap)
>1 Towel & 1 bathcloth
Bottled soap is sure nicer after the second use; Doc Bronners is great.
>3 socks (1 thermal pair)
>Toothbrush & Paste
>Gloves (Leather)
The gloves are often overlooked, good idea.
>1 Sterno Can
I would much rather have a reliable, reusable multifuel stove.
>Ruger 10/22 Rifle
>8 clips (10 rnds each)
>500 .22LR hollowpoint rnds
Nice start, but how about just coordinate group weapons to overlap. I'd
rather have a hodge-podge mix of 10/22's, deer rifles, mini-14's and
shotguns than have ten or twenty .22's. you get a lot more versitility
out of a variety.
>SAS Survival Manual
Heavy, but good. I'd rather go without the book but with the knowledge.
My first aid kit is simple and small, A few prescription antibiotics,
some ibuprofin, some immodium, moleskin, 2" tape, tweezers, bandaids,
Scissors, sunscreen, chapstick, 2x2, 3x3 4x4 and a trauma dressing.
after carrying this for the last five or six years, its met my every need.
I improvise a lot, but being an EMT since 1989 gives me that
flexibility; after all, I've made strechers out of sticks.
After numerous problems trying to import the list of gear I carried on a
recent grand canyon trip, I give up. If you would like a realistic list
of gear for a five day remote trip in rugged terrain, let me know and
I'll E-mail you a copy of my equipement list. I believe that weight is
often a neglected factor by those who do not regularily backpack. Sure
my list doesn't include "necessities" like big guns and mortor tubes, but
I did sucessfully survive for five days with no contact with the outer
world and covered as much as 13.7 miles and 4,000 vertical feet per day.
All the guns in the world won't keep you from freezing to death.
Mark
-
I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately... HDT
Bob Belanger
><<big snip>>
><<Stop thinking militant combat and start thinking survival.>>
>I agree. However, the post did not ask for an evaluation of my methods for
>survival just the gear. As a matter of fact, I don't see how you can even
>state what my methods are since none have been posted.
>I agree, that we should not be looking for trouble, but you must be
>defensive in your posture and must be armed. Running around in the woods
>like Indians , in my humble opinion, will get you killed.
That's exactly what he was trying to point out to you. If you knew how
to survive in the woods you wouldn't be "running around in the woods
like Indians". If you were a real survivalist then you would be able
to avoid conflict by knowing more than your opponents. Then you
wouldn't need any kind of arms for defense.
Mark Zen
:> In article <1996Apr6.20...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>,
amen, welcome back, one of the many voices of sanity i have "met"
while perusing these halls for the last couple years.
mark
Iam4guns2
to survive in the woods you wouldn't be "running around in the woods
like Indians". If you were a real survivalist then you would be able
to avoid conflict by knowing more than your opponents. Then you
wouldn't need any kind of arms for defense.>>
I know exactly what he is saying and I disagree. I don't care who you are,
if someone wants you bad enough all the sneaking around in the world won't
let you escape him for long. This is a "purist" (Spelling?) point of view.
Everybody that is gonna be after you will probably have guns so it stands
to reason you better too. I know enough about survival not to require
weapons at my disposal, but I will have one with me just in case.
Another point also, in lower Alabama there are no vast forrests that you
can get lost in. So that means you have to survive in some tight terrain,
and you will meet someone at some point in time.
I agree to disagree with this gentleman.
Iam4guns2
Survivalist
Silver Circle Member (local survival group)
Mark Kermitt
>Another point also, in lower Alabama there are no vast forrests that
you
>can get lost in. So that means you have to survive in some tight terrain,
>and you will meet someone at some point in time.
>
>I agree to disagree with this gentleman.
Now this is what I call diplomacy! I'd agree that compromise and
diplomacy is essencial, but reality also dictates that the world is
filled with nasty people; it is today and will be tomorrow. Does that
mean I should roll over and play dead if they come to my door to take my
food, burn my house, rape my children? I think not! I believe in
compromise, but some things can never be compromised and I think this is
Mr. guns point. Regardless, I currently hunt for small game for table
meat, should I give up my .22 for a sling-shot, or is killing altogeather
out of the question?
I'm an advocate for a stable, non-violent society, but the prisons are
filled with folks who tend to want things differently. I will compromise
when possible. I avoid conflicts in my life today whenever I can and
plan to do it for as long as I walk the earth. I also retain my right to
keep and arm bears! The world needs more armed bears... or wait... I
mean bear arms... or is that bare arms... well something like that.
Sorry, I couldn't help myself. The facts remain, in a hostile world
there is a season for all things.
I'm generally not interested in talking guns in this newsgroup, but I
also accept their place here. I rarely hike with one, but when in bear
country, do as the bears.
Bearteac
thinking is really bad for a AOLer.
John Doll
>
Golf bag covers are almost big enough to get into and people are
used to those having things pointing up at the end.
>Alex Osinski writes
>> Now this is a really cool thread.
>> ...
>> A big sports bag to carry your webgear and "green" stuff in
>> public.
Mark Thomen
>(Snipped)
>
>I'm generally not interested in talking guns in this newsgroup, but I
>also accept their place here. I rarely hike with one, but when in bear
>country, do as the bears.
Hmmmm; where do you hunt where the bears are armed??
Mark
Mark Thomen
>(Snipped)
>Everybody that is gonna be after you will probably have guns so it stands
>to reason you better too. I know enough about survival not to require
>weapons at my disposal, but I will have one with me just in case.
Good bet they aren't going to be dumb enough to arm themselves all
with .22LR rifles... which means you'll be in DEEP Caa-Caa when they
start picking you folks off from 3-400 yards.
And I like the contradiction between sentence 1 and sentence 2...
Mark
tacteam
>
>Come on! The 10-22 is an awesome gun no doubt. But as a survival weapon?
>What do you plan on using it on, squirrels? Get something that can do
>some real damage. The Mini-14 is nice. But an M1 Garand can really put a
>hole in something. If you feel the need for a .22 for small game get
some
>22 pistols and learn to shoot with them.
lugging around in a survival situation. The Mini 14 is a good choice<due
the .223 round> but is a bit expensive, but if I were to spend the money
on a mini 14 or mini 30<a mini 14 that shoots 7.62x39> I'd go ahead and
get a CAR-15 and customize it. I'd also carry a shotgun, Like a Mossberg
590 with a foldingstock. But that is only if money was no option,
otherwise I'd prefer and swear by, a tricked out *RUSSIAN* sks.But don't
under estimate the power of a .22 round! Remember any thing that shoots
.223<mini 14, ar15,car15,m16,etc> had the nearly the same bullet with a
little more power...
Doc M
that are specifically intended to hold me for 3 or 4 days until I
"get where I need to be" . In my car, I have the "coast guard" type
rations of hermetically sealed water, and "shortbread-cookie-like
Food". Both are SUPPOSEDLY impervious to temperature changes which
is why they are better for a car than MRE's. I also have the
standard emergency supplies first aid, shelter, warmers, chemical
lights etc..
The one in my home is a bit larger, assuming I may be starting out
on foot, probably late at night and somewhat disoriented due to the
emergency.
There are a few items worth adding to your pack(s).
(A) for the one at home I have: a spare set of house and car keys;
some cash, quarters, a phone card, a list of friends & family phone
numbers, and an expired drivers licence. In an emergency, authorties
tend to place restrictions to deter looting. Ideally I will have my
wallet and other ID, but the ID may help make my life eassier.
(B) My carpack is similar except I have concerns about leaving house
keys in it.
--
Since I pay for this account, I alone am responsible.. so do not
blame my cat!
e-mail= 10312...@compuserve.com
Iam4guns2
Boy you are so smart. How about rereading the original post. It says that
this is a minimal requirement for my group, NOT the best things you could
have with you if the fall came and there is an Army on your ass. By the
way, this list has already been approved for my group with several
corrections and additions, and clearly says that our members can "update
an item or weapon as long as it is approved by the Logistics or Tactical
Officer."
There is NO contradiction, only caution.
Iam4guns2
You have seen bear claws or teeth up close, have you?
EL HOGAN
>
>Well lets see..... a lot of technology on this list, a lot of
>individual submission and affiliation....
>
>Ok, now it's my turn,,, has anyone considered making themselves a
>viable commodity in a survival situation? I am not talking about
>a shooter or killer I am thinking more of a person who has the
>knowledge and practice to survive and help others do the same.
>
>Personaly I think this list is too militant to be survivalist, I
>believe it is better to fade away than to blast and get blasted -
>even a ruger 10/22 looks worse than it really is.
>
>This is my proposal... learn the plants and animals, know what
>they can be used for and what is useful in them. People have been
>living off the land for countless millinia without the technology
>we posses and they still do it today. Go native.
>Technology is nice but it is not the end all and you have to know
>it will break down someday.
Much to agree with so far. Kurt Saxon's "Survivor" books are a great
resource toward enabling turn of the century technology. Who fights
for any reason, except to avoid being murdered or enslaved. Agreed it
is better to stealthily observe your threat as it passes yu by.
Survivalism is much about repair & shadetree mechanic skills to
enable technology's continuation.
Going "native" is not a viable choice, if sought as a realistic
lifestyle to enable long term health, survival and prosperity. If
that ruger 10/22 looks threatening, get a folding stock and sling it
under a poncho. Bradford Angier-like skills can definitely aid your
confidence. But embracing a backpack mentality is simply romantic
doom.
>It looks to me like this list is 'Defensive' well if you have
>somthing to defend I guess it must be good but what will there be
>to defend and what will you have to take away? Always remember that
>there will be someone stronger, smarter and/or better armed. If
>you are percieved as a threat, you will be dealt with as one. If
>considered a resource you will be exploited, but if your not
>considered at all you will be free.
Free to do what? Good fences (and defences) make good neighbors.
Not all well armed folks long to be a "warlord". With slaves comes
upkeep or riot for the master. If you can't take care of yourself,
why would any thinking group work with you?
>
>How does one achieve a point of not being considered? Avoid
>posturing... watch for trouble and don't invest yourself in some-
>thing you don't really need.
>The best survivors I have ever run across are living in S. Africa.
>They have found a resource that lasts all year round, when it falls
>from the tree it stays useable for up to six years, and they never
>have to walk more than three-five miles to get it. It's there when
>there is drought, famin and political upheaval. We arn't so lucky
>the Indians who lived here had to migrate during the year to
>exploit the environment and I would too but there is nothing out
>there that you need that you can't get. There are times when it
>is necessary to fight and then if your better fed, healthier and
>know the terrain better you may not even need that gun. Reduce the
>risks increase the opportunities and do it.
>People are resources for their diversity alone and knowledge is your
>greatest weapon.>
Not all arms are needed to fend off two-legged menaces. Wild dogs,
feral pigs and snakes come to mind. What aboutwhen your Rhodesian
Ridgie gets rabid and loses it? Will you use a hoe to dispatch him?
Most cops never fire an "angry shot". A belt gun will be the adjunct
to a hot meal if a wild goat happens your way, (and you can gut him
out, build a fire, and prepare a spit).
>Stop thinking militant combat and start thinking survival.<
Long term Survival depends on:
Your skill and capacity to decisively avoid or end a fight, having
some basic supply need, knowing how to fend and forage for self and
dependent, knowing how to repair durable equipment and follow a basic
instructions or recipes (formulas), being useful to others. Keeping
your wits about you.
Of course this does not contend with a marrauding horde scenario...
In general, right on. But, can't see doing without a gun or going
native. Can't envision a long term foraging lifestyle a' la "The
Happy Wanderer" or Euell Gibbons either.
hogan
--
MZ
raven
>
> In article <1996Apr6.20...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>,
> med...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu says...
> >
> >I know I said that I was jumping ship, but I saw two
> >on-topic posts in a row, and decided to stick around.
> >
> >Mike S. Medintz | Say what you will about my government,
> >"Wise Use" isn't. | but don't insult my country.
> >http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~medintz
>
> Great U-Turn, Mike !
> Good for you,
> good for me,and
not let the bad guys win
ra...@akcache.com
Mark Thomen
>In <4ke7ns$r...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, iam4...@aol.com (Iam4guns2)
>writes:
>>(Snipped)
>>Everybody that is gonna be after you will probably have guns so it stands
>>to reason you better too. I know enough about survival not to require
>>weapons at my disposal, but I will have one with me just in case.
>
><<Good bet they aren't going to be dumb enough to arm themselves all
>with .22LR rifles... which means you'll be in DEEP Caa-Caa when they
>start picking you folks off from 3-400 yards.
>
>And I like the contradiction between sentence 1 and sentence 2...>>
>
>Boy you are so smart. How about rereading the original post. It says that
>this is a minimal requirement for my group, NOT the best things you could
>have with you if the fall came and there is an Army on your ass.
I believe it also said (and you confirmed in response to a subsequent query
by another appender) that "the" weapon that had been decided upon for
the group was the 10/22 - meaning the whole group. I have to wonder about
the survivability of a group that thinks arming the whole batch with .22's is
truly going to work. If you're worried about having an "Army on your ass"
why would you even START with something as useless as .22's??
By the
>way, this list has already been approved for my group with several
>corrections and additions, and clearly says that our members can "update
>an item or weapon as long as it is approved by the Logistics or Tactical
>Officer."
Geez, if I had to get "approval" from someone who thought .22's was
good enough to start with before I could carry something else, I'd find
another group.
>
>There is NO contradiction, only caution.
Sentence 1: "Everybody should have a gun because they'll need one"
Sentence 2: "I'm so good I don't need a gun"
Sounds like a contradiction to me...
Mark
Mark Thomen
>In <4keg25$1m...@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>, FFK...@prodigy.com (Mark
>Kermitt) writes:
>>(Snipped)
>>
>>I'm generally not interested in talking guns in this newsgroup, but I
>>also accept their place here. I rarely hike with one, but when in bear
>>country, do as the bears.
>
><<Hmmmm; where do you hunt where the bears are armed??>>
>
>You have seen bear claws or teeth up close, have you?
Implication above: You carry a gun when in bear country, because you
want to do as the bears do. Obviously this must mean
the bears carry guns too; otherwise why don't you just carry
your fingernails and teeth if you want to do as the
bears do?
Mark
Iam4guns2
In <4kh991$1...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, iam4...@aol.com (Iam4guns2)
writes:
>In <4ke7ns$r...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, iam4...@aol.com (Iam4guns2)
>writes:
>>(Snipped)
>>Everybody that is gonna be after you will probably have guns so it
stands
>>to reason you better too. I know enough about survival not to require
>>weapons at my disposal, but I will have one with me just in case.
>
><<Good bet they aren't going to be dumb enough to arm themselves all
>with .22LR rifles... which means you'll be in DEEP Caa-Caa when they
>start picking you folks off from 3-400 yards.
>
>And I like the contradiction between sentence 1 and sentence 2...>>
>
>Boy you are so smart. How about rereading the original post. It says that
>this is a minimal requirement for my group, NOT the best things you could
>have with you if the fall came and there is an Army on your ass.
<<I believe it also said (and you confirmed in response to a subsequent
query
by another appender) that "the" weapon that had been decided upon for
the group was the 10/22 - meaning the whole group. I have to wonder about
the survivability of a group that thinks arming the whole batch with .22's
is
truly going to work. If you're worried about having an "Army on your ass"
why would you even START with something as useless as .22's??>>
FROM THE ORIGINAL POST
"These are the requirements for any new group member to the survival group
that I belong to (the Silver Circle). We are about to vote on this and
would like some opinions. Please remember everyone that the list is a
minimum requirement, and should be viewed as such.
Silver Circle
(Individual Bug Out Bag List)
(This list must be filled by every member and are the minimum equiptment
requirements for each member.)"
Sort of self explainitory. I have at no time said that you could not
upgrade to a higher caliber. I have said that the 22 would be the minimum
requirement. You are wrong again.
By the
>way, this list has already been approved for my group with several
>corrections and additions, and clearly says that our members can "update
>an item or weapon as long as it is approved by the Logistics or Tactical
>Officer."
<<Geez, if I had to get "approval" from someone who thought .22's was
good enough to start with before I could carry something else, I'd find
another group.>>
Simple man, if I have a 22 and a .308, and I just joined the group, I
would be allowed to carry the .308. Why? Because it meets the minimum
requirement and I do have a 22!! And I have the 22 as a backup. Something
I just thought about, if you die from a 22 you are dead. Are you saying if
you die from a .308 you are "more dead"? They both kill, what is the
problem? Oh I am really heart broken that you won't be joining my group. I
have seen several men like you who can acomplish nothing, who say alot,
have no helpful ideas, and who want to be the boss. I have two such trying
to be readmitted to my group right now. Thanks, but no thanks.
>
>There is NO contradiction, only caution.
<<Sentence 1: "Everybody should have a gun because they'll need one"
Sentence 2: "I'm so good I don't need a gun"
Sounds like a contradiction to me...>>
Sentence 1: "Everyone should have one."(not need)
Sentence 2: "I'm so good I don't need one, but will have one"
Just quit commenting to my posts I find them annoying. How many of these
lists have you put together big man? Do you even belong to a group or are
you just wasting time on your daddy's computer?
Iam4guns2
>>also accept their place here. I rarely hike with one, but when in bear
>>country, do as the bears.
>
><<Hmmmm; where do you hunt where the bears are armed??>>
>You have seen bear claws or teeth up close, have you?
<<Implication above: You carry a gun when in bear country, because you
want to do as the bears do. Obviously this
must mean
the bears carry guns too; otherwise why don't
you just carry
your fingernails and teeth if you want to do as
the
bears do? >>
I understand your humor, but just don't appreciate it. See, I told you
that you have nothing constructive to say.
Abe D. Lockman
(Iam4guns2) wrote:
{another poster, name deleted by iam...@aol, wrote}
>
> >Sounds like a contradiction to me...>>
> >
> >Sentence 1: "Everyone should have one."(not need)
> >Sentence 2: "I'm so good I don't need one, but will have one"
>
> Just quit commenting to my posts I find them annoying. How many of these
> lists have you put together big man? Do you even belong to a group or are
> you just wasting time on your daddy's computer?
You are, iam...@aol, getting somewhat rude here. You posted a question,
giving a fairly ill-defined and not very explicit scenario; yet many
folks here tried to help you out with their best opinions (which sometimes
pointed out flaws in the proposed gear assemblage). Perhaps you should
stick to simply following the rules of your "silver circle."
adl
Mark Thomen
>
>FROM THE ORIGINAL POST
>"These are the requirements for any new group member to the survival group
>that I belong to (the Silver Circle). We are about to vote on this and
>would like some opinions. Please remember everyone that the list is a
>minimum requirement, and should be viewed as such.
>
>Silver Circle
>(Individual Bug Out Bag List)
>(This list must be filled by every member and are the minimum equiptment
>requirements for each member.)"
>Sort of self explainitory. I have at no time said that you could not
>upgrade to a higher caliber. I have said that the 22 would be the minimum
>requirement. You are wrong again.
>
>> By the
>>way, this list has already been approved for my group with several
>>corrections and additions, and clearly says that our members can "update
>>an item or weapon as long as it is approved by the Logistics or Tactical
>>Officer."
>
><<Geez, if I had to get "approval" from someone who thought .22's was
>good enough to start with before I could carry something else, I'd find
>another group.>>
>
>Simple man, if I have a 22 and a .308, and I just joined the group, I
>would be allowed to carry the .308. Why? Because it meets the minimum
>requirement and I do have a 22!! And I have the 22 as a backup.
Yeah, you can carry the .308 as long as your "Tactical Officer" approves
it. It shouldn't even be necessary to get an approval.
> Something
>I just thought about, if you die from a 22 you are dead. Are you saying if
>you die from a .308 you are "more dead"? They both kill, what is the
>problem?
No, you're not "more dead" - but I'll tell you what - let's get about 400 yds
apart and see who gets who first - you with your 10/22 or AR-15, or me with
my 7.62... Ballistic advantage young man, ballistic advantage.... And go read
up on what "stopping power" is; sounds like you need a lesson on it.
> Oh I am really heart broken that you won't be joining my group. I
>have seen several men like you who can acomplish nothing, who say alot,
>have no helpful ideas, and who want to be the boss. I have two such trying
>to be readmitted to my group right now. Thanks, but no thanks.
Hey dude, you ASKED for "critique" - you're getting it. If you're going to
whine like a little baby when someone gives you criticism, don't ask...
And not only would I not want to be the boss, I wouldn't want to have ANYTHING
to do with your obviously chickensh*t "survival group."
And get a spell-checker; it'll give you more credibility on the net...
>
>Just quit commenting to my posts I find them annoying. How many of these
>lists have you put together big man? Do you even belong to a group or are
>you just wasting time on your daddy's computer?
Wow, like belonging to a GROUP is really IMPORTANT, eh? And if you don't
like commenting on your posts, then DON'T ASK for comments, dipsh*t! You
sound like the childish one - can't handle criticism, feel threatened that someone
else may know more than you, wannabe in a group that feels 10/22s are
"OK" as a "minimum requirement" and chastises someone when they hint
your emphasis is combat versus survival.
As for my own qualifications? I don't think it's any of your business, but
I have 22 years of military training including two survival schools and
regular refresher training as an aircrew member. And that's just the
official training...
Mark
>Iam4guns2
>Survivalist
Hardly... wannabe is a better term
Mark
Someone
>Just quit commenting to my posts I find them annoying. How many of these
>lists have you put together big man? Do you even belong to a group or are
>you just wasting time on your daddy's computer?
>Iam4guns2
>Survivalist
>Silver Circle Member (local survival group)
>http://members.aol.com/Iam4guns2/index.htm
C'mon y'all, lets not have a flamewar. This is a group for helping
each other prepare. We are not always going to agree with each other,
and it's easy to take offense at what someone says even if no offense
was intended. One of the bad things about posting, as opposed to
talking face to face, is the ease of misinterpretating meanings. Let's
agree to disagree and go from there. This is one of the best groups I
have yet found, where people actually trade useful information and get
things done.
Iam4guns2
McElhiney) writes:
>In article <lockman-0304...@lockman.cais.com>, loc...@cais.com
>says...
>>
>>In article <4js5p7$q...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, iam4...@aol.com
>>(Iam4guns2) wrote:
>>
>(all his stuff gone for now)
>
>>It's rather difficult to comment on this without your specifying: what
>>scenarios you hope to survive; for how long; where; in what
>>size/composition groups; with what travel (if any) to what sort of
>>destination layout (if any).
>>
>>But two questions for now:
>>
>> - why need the boots be green or black???
>>
>> - if this is a group, why have every member carry a .22, rather than
>>have a group-wide assortment?
>>
>>adl
>
>
>Well, I'll jump in since Mr. Iam4... hasn't come back. These are
>educated guesses:
>
> - the group would want to be attired identically or as nearly so
> as possible so as to be able to pick each other out in a crowd
> or in a situation involving attack, gunfire, whatever.
>
> - a group standard weapon enables the group to have one kind of
> spare parts, one kind of ammo, everyone can pick up anyone else's
> weapon and fire it immediately.
>
>A question, too, if I may. How do you hook up with a group recruiting
>members in your community? Preparedness Expos (this year for me in
>Orlando), gun shows?
>
>How'd I do?
>Trish in Florida
>
>
Sorry folks I have lost two messages that was suppose to reply to your
critiques.
Trish's statements above are right on target. (Good Guess) I would add
that a pink pair of boots would stick out a bit. Don't you think? That is
why the color limit. And remember this is suppose to be a beginner's list.
The new recruit can buy a group standard weapon like a AR-15 or something
else later, and in doing so can use his 22 as a fall back weapon or one
nice barter item.
As far as the recruiting, my group is a close knit group. We have several
families that share like interest, and we have just "got together". We
have been together for about 6 months as a group. We are currently working
on requirements, by-laws, and operating rules. We are not recruiting yet,
nor do I see a big recruiting drive in the future. Not the sort of thing
you want to go shouting down the street. I suggest if you wanted to find a
group in your area. To try the gun shows and casually ask around. Or try
local gun shops or hiking groups. Maybe someone could add to this.
Mike S. Medintz
: The one in my home is a bit larger, assuming I may be starting out
: on foot, probably late at night and somewhat disoriented due to the
: emergency.
You might actually might want to make it smaller than the car-pack, given
the possibility that you might be moving out on foot.
: There are a few items worth adding to your pack(s).
: (A) for the one at home I have: a spare set of house and car keys;
: some cash, quarters, a phone card, a list of friends & family phone
: numbers, and an expired drivers licence. In an emergency, authorties
: tend to place restrictions to deter looting. Ideally I will have my
: wallet and other ID, but the ID may help make my life eassier.
How would one go about getting an extra license? That sounded like a good
idea, but I'm still on my first license for another year or so, and my
only other photo ID is not accepted anwhere in the known universe. (It's
a school ID, if that affects anything.)
: (B) My carpack is similar except I have concerns about leaving house
: keys in it.
You may want to try mounting the keys to part of the car itself, where they
are not visible to anyone else. Perhaps somewhere on the engine block?
(Also, you could take a file to the head of the key to wipe out the markings
about the type of lock and who made the blank.)
: --
: Since I pay for this account, I alone am responsible.. so do not
: blame my cat!
: e-mail= 10312...@compuserve.com
--
Mike S. Medintz | Say what you will about my government,
"Wise Use" isn't. | but don't insult my country.
http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~medintz
"If you don't vote, don't bitch."
Alex Osinski
>Doc M (10312...@CompuServe.COM) wrote:
>
>: There are a few items worth adding to your pack(s).
>
>: (A) for the one at home I have: a spare set of house and car keys;
>: some cash, quarters, a phone card, a list of friends & family phone
>: numbers, and an expired drivers licence. In an emergency, authorties
>: tend to place restrictions to deter looting. Ideally I will have my
>: wallet and other ID, but the ID may help make my life eassier.
>
>How would one go about getting an extra license?
"Lose" the one you have now (do not report it stolen, just lost). Then
"find" it sometime after you get the new one. Chances are that it will
have the same number and other information (They do in CA). Put the
"lost" ID in your survival pack along with extra copies of credit cards
(do not do the "lost" routine with them, just pay the extra $10 for
another card when they give new cards on your anniversiary date). You can
also "lose" your military ID (if you have one) for the same purpose.
>
>: (B) My carpack is similar except I have concerns about leaving house
>: keys in it.
>
>You may want to try mounting the keys to part of the car itself, where they are not visible to anyone else. Perhaps somewhere on th=
e engine block?(Also, you could take a file to the head of the key to wipe out the markings about the type of lock and who made the=
blank.)
Put them in Saran wrap or very small ziploc bags and then attach them to
a piece of duct tape that is pleny bigger than the bag. Clean off a part
of an inner body panel and attach the tape and key package. You may
wantto fold over one end of the tape by an inch so it is easyto pull away
from the body panel. Enging block gets too hot and greasy, tape won't
stick thee very well. Put decoy tape elsewhere under the body and
suspension.
Iam4guns2
(Abe D. Lockman) writes:
>In article <4kj1m1$j...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, iam4...@aol.com
>(Iam4guns2) wrote:
>
>{another poster, name deleted by iam...@aol, wrote}
>>
>> >Sounds like a contradiction to me...>>
>> >
>> >Sentence 1: "Everyone should have one."(not need)
>> >Sentence 2: "I'm so good I don't need one, but will have one"
>>
>> Just quit commenting to my posts I find them annoying. How many of
these
>> lists have you put together big man? Do you even belong to a group or
are
>> you just wasting time on your daddy's computer?
>
>You are, iam...@aol, getting somewhat rude here. You posted a question,
>giving a fairly ill-defined and not very explicit scenario; yet many
>folks here tried to help you out with their best opinions (which
sometimes
>pointed out flaws in the proposed gear assemblage). Perhaps you should
>stick to simply following the rules of your "silver circle."
Rude, good. I am allowed to be rude. It is called freedom of speech. I did
post a question with an acceptable scenario, and did get some wonderfull
and informative responses. However, a few of the responses have been from
individuals who can not come to an agreement with themselves let alone
other people's ideas. I think my list is an acceptable "Beginner's Gear
List". I do think it is lacking, but as I have pointed out on many
occassions members can update their gear "at anytime" and are encouraged
to do so. I know it had/has flaws and I am glad for the advise and
constructive critique. However, the little people like the above mentioned
gentlemen offend me not because of criticism, but because their
know-it-attutide is overwhelmingly ignorant.
Iam4guns2
(Someone) writes:
>
>>Just quit commenting to my posts I find them annoying. How many of these
>>lists have you put together big man? Do you even belong to a group or
are
>>you just wasting time on your daddy's computer?
>>Iam4guns2
>>Survivalist
>>Silver Circle Member (local survival group)
>>http://members.aol.com/Iam4guns2/index.htm
>
>C'mon y'all, lets not have a flamewar. This is a group for helping
>each other prepare. We are not always going to agree with each other,
>and it's easy to take offense at what someone says even if no offense
>was intended. One of the bad things about posting, as opposed to
>talking face to face, is the ease of misinterpretating meanings. Let's
>agree to disagree and go from there. This is one of the best groups I
>have yet found, where people actually trade useful information and get
>things done.
Exactly, I do understand your point and it was a pure lack of self-control
to let this go on as long as it has. I hope this thread has been helpfull
and I do apologize to others who may have had to suffer though this
squabble.
Iam4guns2
Thomen) writes:
>>
>><<Geez, if I had to get "approval" from someone who thought .22's was
>>good enough to start with before I could carry something else, I'd find
>>another group.>>
>>
>>Simple man, if I have a 22 and a .308, and I just joined the group, I
>>would be allowed to carry the .308. Why? Because it meets the minimum
>>requirement and I do have a 22!! And I have the 22 as a backup.
>
>Yeah, you can carry the .308 as long as your "Tactical Officer" approves
>it. It shouldn't even be necessary to get an approval.
>
Obsolutely, this is what he is there for and that is what a well-orginized
group is all about. What if 4 members of the group have a group standard
weapon and you go getting some off-the-wall Chinease junk that is about to
fall apart. Sorry I think is would be a good idea for a person who has
been in the Army for 12 years, competed in over 24 marksmanship matches,
worked at and sold his own gun business and has purchased an unGodly
assortment of guns to give some advise and guidance to a first time buyer
who has just joined our group and think the piece of crap will last him
forever.
>> Something
>>I just thought about, if you die from a 22 you are dead. Are you saying
if
>>you die from a .308 you are "more dead"? They both kill, what is the
>>problem?
>
>No, you're not "more dead" - but I'll tell you what - let's get about 400
yds
>apart and see who gets who first - you with your 10/22 or AR-15, or me
with
>my 7.62... Ballistic advantage young man, ballistic advantage.... And
go
>read up on what "stopping power" is; sounds like you need a lesson on it.
I know the range of your 7.62, and I see your point. However, this only
works if you know I am there, can see me, and have the time to get an
accurate shot. I do not plan on allowing such. I know what "stopping
power" is, and it has been a long time since I have been called young.
Thanks
>
>> Oh I am really heart broken that you won't be joining my group. I
>>have seen several men like you who can acomplish nothing, who say alot,
>>have no helpful ideas, and who want to be the boss. I have two such
trying
>>to be readmitted to my group right now. Thanks, but no thanks.
>
>Hey dude, you ASKED for "critique" - you're getting it. If you're going
to
>whine like a little baby when someone gives you criticism, don't ask...
>And not only would I not want to be the boss, I wouldn't want to have
>ANYTHING to do with your obviously chickensh*t "survival group."
I *have* received several good critiques that have kick me in the but and
got me thinking. Hey, everyone needs a good kick every now and again.
However, I am not getting constructive criticism from you, I am getting
opinionative crap.
>
>And get a spell-checker; it'll give you more credibility on the net...
>
Sorry, don't like spelling. Don't really care for credibility either. It
improves my disquise.
>>
>>Just quit commenting to my posts I find them annoying. How many of these
>>lists have you put together big man? Do you even belong to a group or
are
>>you just wasting time on your daddy's computer?
>
>Wow, like belonging to a GROUP is really IMPORTANT, eh? And if you don't
>like commenting on your posts, then DON'T ASK for comments, dipsh*t! You
>sound like the childish one - can't handle criticism, feel threatened
that
>someone else may know more than you, wannabe in a group that feels 10/22s
are
>"OK" as a "minimum requirement" and chastises someone when they hint
>your emphasis is combat versus survival.
Boy, struck a nerve here. HAHA. Well, I can see clear thought and rational
thinking have clearly gone out the window. So are you saying you don't
belong to a group? Do you think the reason is you can't agree with anyone?
Or are you just loning it because "we" are "all" wrong, and you are the
only one that is right. hmmmmm.... Hey, you are right though I don't know
"anything" about surviving. Never mine the fact that I have accomplished:
the policies and procedures manual for my group, elected Logistics Officer
for my group, been a survivalist for SEVERAL years. So I must be doing
something right. Duhhhhhh OH, I would rather have 22's than nothing. How
do you even know what my emphasis is? I just did a lousy gear list, and
now you are spouting my goals and objectives of my personal ideas about
survival. Get a grip.
>
>As for my own qualifications? I don't think it's any of your business,
but
>I have 22 years of military training including two survival schools and
>regular refresher training as an aircrew member. And that's just the
>official training...
>
>
WOW (sarcastically said), still not impressed. Any idiot can get in the
National Guard or drafted way back when. I believe I have read other posts
of yours (e.g. your bicycling adventure across the states, dropping out of
highschool). Sorry, I don't think you are the kind of man I would pattern
my life after, nor do I care for your assesments or ideas. I agree to
disagree with you. Good day!! Note - In order to clear the thread of our
little squabble, I will not respond to any more such non-sense from you.
Alex Osinski
Most survivor types I know have the Ruger anyway, so I do not see what a
big deal it is, except that there is sometimes a bit of a problem
getting spare parts for them. This is more than made up for by all of
the acessories available for them anyway.
As to the military gear requirements, I already said that you can hardly
do better for the money, even though custom civilian gear is better.
It may make us uncomfortable to have somebody approve or disapprove of a
gun you may like, but there are a lot of guns out there that you can pick
as standard. Fact is, somebody has to make the decision if your group
delegates that authority to one person, then so be it (in my group, we
vote, and everybody has a chance to have input on the issue).
The way I see it, guns of the same caliber should take the same mag, and
that is not hard to do. Your .223 guns can take M16 pattern mags, 7.62
guns can take AK mags, ect.
The AMT, Intratec, and Sabbatti .22s all take the Ruger mag so they
should meet the standard (Intratec may be too low on the quaity scale
though).
So there we are, a .22 standard (Ruger or AMT .22), a .308 standard, a
7.62X39 standard, and a .223 standard. It matters less with bolt guns,
or guns that have close tolerances for spare parts (your sniper guns)
because you will not interchange spares anyway. I think most of us would
agree that 12g is the ammo standard for survival shotguns, with Mossberg,
Remington and Winchester being the most common standards. I have never
seen anybody agree on what is the best handgun, but a government pattern
45 seems to be a good standard even though most people will prefer
something else.
As for minimum requirements to get into the group, I would loosen it to
any one of the standard guns, being that the prospective member is on the
way to having the 4 gun set (Rifle, handgun, shotgun, .22) I would
accept a high power quality airgun as a substitute for a .22 if a person
has the other guns.
Mark Thomen
>(Most of Iam's childish babbling snipped...)
>>As for my own qualifications? I don't think it's any of your business,
>but
>>I have 22 years of military training including two survival schools and
>>regular refresher training as an aircrew member. And that's just the
>>official training...
>>
>>
>WOW (sarcastically said), still not impressed. Any idiot can get in the
>National Guard or drafted way back when. I believe I have read other posts
>of yours (e.g. your bicycling adventure across the states, dropping out of
>highschool).
You MUST have me confused with someone else. Which doesn't really surprise
me.
> Sorry, I don't think you are the kind of man I would pattern
>my life after, nor do I care for your assesments or ideas. I agree to
>disagree with you. Good day!! Note - In order to clear the thread of our
>little squabble, I will not respond to any more such non-sense from you.
Good; and I won't even take advantage of your promise to get in the last
word...
Mark
Mike S. Medintz
I noticed that this thread is starting to really degenerate into cheap
shots and flames. Has anybody read the misc.survivalism FAQ?
Remember the line "We did not split off of rec.guns."
Whenever we discuss firearms for any great length of time, it almost
invariably turns into something ugly. Now, talking guns is not necessarily
a bad thing, but let's try and keep it civil, OK?
Mike S. Medintz
"Wise Use" isn't
Abe D. Lockman
med...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Mike S. Medintz) wrote:
> I noticed that this thread is starting to really degenerate into cheap
> shots and flames. Has anybody read the misc.survivalism FAQ?
>
> Remember the line "We did not split off of rec.guns."
>
> Whenever we discuss firearms for any great length of time, it almost
> invariably turns into something ugly. Now, talking guns is not necessarily
> a bad thing, but let's try and keep it civil, OK?
I'm very surprised at this comment Mike. Rec.guns is perhaps the most
polite and civilized group I've seen on usenet; of course their "esteemed
moderator" is a major factor in keeping it so.
adl
Mike S. Medintz
> > I noticed that this thread is starting to really degenerate into cheap
> > shots and flames. Has anybody read the misc.survivalism FAQ?
> >
> > Remember the line "We did not split off of rec.guns."
> >
> > Whenever we discuss firearms for any great length of time, it almost
> > invariably turns into something ugly. Now, talking guns is not necessarily
> > a bad thing, but let's try and keep it civil, OK?
>
> I'm very surprised at this comment Mike. Rec.guns is perhaps the most
> polite and civilized group I've seen on usenet; of course their "esteemed
> moderator" is a major factor in keeping it so.
If something in my response was taken to mean that rec.guns was rude, I
apologize. That was not my intention.
What I was trying to say is, the threads regarding 10/22's seems to be
decaying into some sort of flamewar, and it reminded me of a line in the
misc.survivalism FAQ (from Frugal Squirrel's web site, IIRC) that we did
not split off from rec.guns. Somehow, it seemed a valid criticism with MS
hosting a flamewar over guns.
Maybe I overreacted.
> adl
Richard A. De Castro
>I, for one am not going to bash Iam4guns2's minimum requirements.
>Most survivor types I know have the Ruger anyway, so I do not see what a
>big deal it is, except that there is sometimes a bit of a problem
>getting spare parts for them. This is more than made up for by all of
>the acessories available for them anyway.
Yeah, but not as the ONLY weapon they've got.
>As to the military gear requirements, I already said that you can hardly
>do better for the money, even though custom civilian gear is better.
Even regular civilian backpacking gear is better. Military gear tends to
be heavy, poorly made, and uncomfortable.
>It may make us uncomfortable to have somebody approve or disapprove of a
>gun you may like, but there are a lot of guns out there that you can pick
>as standard. Fact is, somebody has to make the decision if your group
>delegates that authority to one person, then so be it (in my group, we
>vote, and everybody has a chance to have input on the issue).
If someone in my group decided that the only gun (the standard) would be
any .22, one of several courses of action would result: a) he'd be fired;
b) he'd be committed; c) he'd be expelled; or d) he'd be by himself.
That's a stupid decision, any way you slice it. And, I've not seen any
explanation from Iam4Guns to give it any credence.
But, that's the way he's been about this whole thing. I think he was trolling
for kudos on how wonderful and prescient his group is, and instead was told
that they're a bunch of idiots. Well, lifes tough.
B
>The way I see it, guns of the same caliber should take the same mag, and
>that is not hard to do. Your .223 guns can take M16 pattern mags, 7.62
>guns can take AK mags, ect.
>The AMT, Intratec, and Sabbatti .22s all take the Ruger mag so they
>should meet the standard (Intratec may be too low on the quaity scale
>though).
> So there we are, a .22 standard (Ruger or AMT .22), a .308 standard, a
>7.62X39 standard, and a .223 standard. It matters less with bolt guns,
>or guns that have close tolerances for spare parts (your sniper guns)
>because you will not interchange spares anyway. I think most of us would
>agree that 12g is the ammo standard for survival shotguns, with Mossberg,
>Remington and Winchester being the most common standards. I have never
>seen anybody agree on what is the best handgun, but a government pattern
>45 seems to be a good standard even though most people will prefer
>something else.
>As for minimum requirements to get into the group, I would loosen it to
>any one of the standard guns, being that the prospective member is on the
>way to having the 4 gun set (Rifle, handgun, shotgun, .22) I would
>accept a high power quality airgun as a substitute for a .22 if a person
>has the other guns.
In a group that's just starting out, that wants (or needs) this sort of
rigid, do it my way control, it would be more logical for each member to
get a different weapon (perhaps two people get each), to allow the group
to have defense-in-depth. A .22 will kill anything (and has), but it is
not generally considered a reliable stopper on 80-kg mammals. True, I may
die from a shot from one, but there's a very good chance I won't. Whoever
shot me with one would have a very, very good chance of expiring in the next
few seconds after I return fire.
--
============================================================================
deca...@netcom.com Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really!
Rick N6RCX NREMT ATP MA Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly......
Richard A. De Castro - To those who have defended it, Freedom has a flavor
deca...@pacificnet.net the Protected will never enjoy.
-Don't Tread On Me!- =Don't Forget to Vote!=
=============================================================================
just_us
med...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu says...
>
>(An awful lot of clipping)
>
>into cheap shots and flames. Has anybody read the
>misc.survivalism FAQ?
>
I wish we could get a "Reader's Digest" version of the FAQ,
that we could post OFTEN and use to it to email to the hounds
that take part in the destructive blather.
>Remember the line "We did not split off of rec.guns."
We may not have "split-off" from it but it seems like their
trash keeps blowing over here. Kinda like living down-wind &
next door to folks who don't give a d*mn. Some of these folks
remind me of poachers, horse-thieves, and the kind of attitude
of "some" folks who think that country-folks won't mind them
crossing their land, taking their food, and squatting on
"unused" acreage that we have been hearing from in another
thread here < barf, puke, gag me with a spoon >
Rec.guns has a moderator and we don't so lets just keep
emailing the offenders our requests for more appropriate
behavior, AND KEEP THE CIVIL-TONGUED THREADS GOING ! Yeah!
> but let's try and keep it civil, OK?
>
>Mike S. Medintz
>"Wise Use" isn't
Way ta go, Mike. (for a 'young-un', you do good work. When
can you run for prez?)
21012d
Another tidbit to carry, pocket, purse or pack,
Finger nail clippers, a broken untrimed finger nail
is so to speak, really a pain...most Swiss army and multi
purpose tools sissors do not do a good job of trimming.
Richard A. De Castro
>>
>>You are, iam...@aol, getting somewhat rude here. You posted a question,
>>giving a fairly ill-defined and not very explicit scenario; yet many
>>folks here tried to help you out with their best opinions (which
>sometimes
>>pointed out flaws in the proposed gear assemblage). Perhaps you should
>>stick to simply following the rules of your "silver circle."
>Rude, good. I am allowed to be rude. It is called freedom of speech. I did
>post a question with an acceptable scenario, and did get some wonderfull
>and informative responses. However, a few of the responses have been from
>individuals who can not come to an agreement with themselves let alone
>other people's ideas. I think my list is an acceptable "Beginner's Gear
>List". I do think it is lacking, but as I have pointed out on many
>occassions members can update their gear "at anytime" and are encouraged
>to do so. I know it had/has flaws and I am glad for the advise and
>constructive critique. However, the little people like the above mentioned
>gentlemen offend me not because of criticism, but because their
>know-it-attutide is overwhelmingly ignorant.
So lets see. You ask for peoples suggestions, with what really seems to
be a poorly contrived set of equipment for your "group", and when people
offer honest and constructive critique you get in a huff?
You know, a sense of proportion is almost as important a survival trait
as the willingness to learn. People graciously explained just how and
where you're wrong, and you resort to name calling.
Good luck, fellow traveller. I wish you and your group the best -
Patton M Turner
>How would one go about getting an extra license? That sounded like a good
>idea, but I'm still on my first license for another year or so, and my
>only other photo ID is not accepted anwhere in the known universe. (It's
>a school ID, if that affects anything.)
Say you misplaced the current license. In my home state the first
replacement is cheap. Don't know what paperwork is required, as I've
never lost one.
>You may want to try mounting the keys to part of the car itself, where they
>are not visible to anyone else. Perhaps somewhere on the engine block?
>(Also, you could take a file to the head of the key to wipe out the markings
> about the type of lock and who made the blank.)
I use cable ties to attach them to a hidden part of the frame. Don't
forget toolbox keys if you have a pickup. It's also not a bad idea to
learn how to hot wire your truck.
Pat
Keith Hinton
>In article <1996Apr12.2...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>,
>med...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu says...
>>
>>(An awful lot of clipping)
>>
>>I noticed that this thread is starting to really degenerate
>>into cheap shots and flames. Has anybody read the
>>misc.survivalism FAQ?
>>
>
>I wish we could get a "Reader's Digest" version of the FAQ,
>that we could post OFTEN and use to it to email to the hounds
>that take part in the destructive blather.
>
>> but let's try and keep it civil, OK?
>>
>>Mike S. Medintz
>
Amen to that...
This has been one of the most informative groups on the net and,
for the most part, it has as its contributors some people who actually know
what they are talking about. I, for one, have appreciated the input I have
recieved and the discussions entered into by others.
Let us not forget the most important survival skill is _Getting along
with each other_. If we can't do that, what are we surviving for??
There is only one result of flamewars, and that is to fill this
newsgroup up with so much crap that no one will want to wade through it.
That would truly be a shame.
If you work for the NWOrder, I can understand why this "divide and
conquer" stategy might be your true aim. For the rest of us, Let's
remember what our priorities really are...
global nomad
Mike S. Medintz
: On 8 Apr 1996, Iam4guns2 wrote:
: >
: > Silver Circle Survival Group(Individual Bug Out Bag List)
: > (This list is to be used for all new recruits. It should be viewed as a
: > "beginner's list", and can be updated at anytime after completing the
: > list.
: []
: > CLOTHING
: > 2 Camo Fatige shirt & pants
: > 1 set insulated underwear(recommended dark color)
You might want to tighten this spec a little. I've seen cotton longjohns
marked as "insulated underwear," even though cotton is a quick death in
cold and wet conditions. I personally use polypro or capilene. (And, in
winter, I prefer almost any wool over any cotton.)
: > Water Resistant Boots (green or black)
Just to jump in again, I personally would just specify "earth-tone" and
leave it at that.
: > Camo Ski-Mask
: > Gloves (Leather)
: > Green Rain Poncho (big enough for pack)
: I'd lose the ski-mask, except in winter. I'd add underwear and
: non-cotton socks. And some normal clothes.
Also, if you're carrying leather gloves, you might want to think about
wool liners, like the D-3 surplus.
: Ponchos are a pain. Go for gore-tex and a pack cover. You ever worn a
: poncho in a heavy wind?
In defense of Mr. im4guns2, ponchos have uses other than as rainwear. I use
an army-surplus poncho and liner for a bivy/shelter tarp in cold weather,
and as a sleeping bag in warm.
: > FOOD
: > 1 qt cantee & belt holder (x2)
: > 1 bottle of water purification tablets
: > Metal Canteen Cup
: > Metal G.I. Mess Kit
: > Eating Utensils (Fork, Knife, Spoon Combo)
: > 3 days supply of food (min. 3 MRE's)
: I'd go with Nalgene water bottles, they weigh less. And forget all the
: mess kit stuff. Most of it is aluminimum (sp?), which isn't healthy. The
: fork and knife are redundant. I'd use a one or two liter stainless pan,
: depending on the number I was cooking for, a plastic bowl for each person,
: and a lexan spoon for each.
Also, you probably want to carry more than 2 quarts/person.
: Forget the MRE's. For a bug out, I'd either do the coast-guard route or,
: if going for luxury, freeze-dried food.
Or, you can go with jerky/hardtack/dried fruit. For 3 days, living on
starch alone won't kill you.
: I'd add a purifier, not a filter, a purifier.
What's the difference? (I know it sounds ignorant, but I really don't know.)
: > EQUIPTMENT
: > Large ALICE pack & Frame
: Heavy and uncomfortable. My Dana weighs 4 lbs. 13 ozs and hold 4,700 cubic
: inches. Better fit, lighter weight. (Okay, so it has a aramid fiber in
: the weave, cost more but the weight saving is greater than my sleeping
: bag weight by almost double.)
Likewise, I've been backpacking with both the ALICE pack and the REI
Traverse, and the REI pack is a _LOT_ more comfortable. Better padding
on the straps, a more comfortable hip belt, fairly subdued colors,
and it's much better at keeping your gear dry than an ALICE.
: > Hunting/Survival Knife with whetstone
: I would think that for a bug-out bag, something like the Buck Edgemaster
: would suffice -- whetstones are heavy.
: > Swiss Army Knife (Large, Swiss Champion recommended)
If you really think so. Personally, I'm less than entirely satisfied with
Swiss Army knives. They're not lockblades (bad news for your fingers),
the blades break easily, and the hinges aren't as strong as they should be.
I use a Gerber Gator lockblade and either a USMC KaBar or a Buck Special.
: > 1 8' x 10' Camo or Green Tarp
: > 1 6' x 6' blanket or sleeping bag (green in color)
The poncho/liner can double as a tarp. Also, if you've covered the sleeping
bag/blanket right with a poncho/tarp/debris hut, it doesn't really matter
what color it is.
: I know synthetics are supposed to keep you warm even when they are wet,
: but they aren't real tenable when wet. So your tarp construction better
: go under the bag as well. And, of course, you might want to think about
: a pad, mine is 11 ozs. Keeps the bag dry from condensation and you warmer.
Even so, in wet areas synthetics would still be preferable to down.
Also, at night you lose at least as much heat through conduction to the
ground as you do into the air, making a mattress even more important.
: > 1 Folding Shovel or Machette
: Plastic trowel and Spyderco rescue knife. (Or an Emerson...)
: I also carry a Tomes scagel style skinner. But a medium SAK.
: > 1 AA Minimag Flashlight Black
: Petzl headlamp? In any case, use a red lens to save your night vision.
Supposedly, blue lenses are even better than red. Also, if you're trying
to be covert, blue looks a lot more like moonlight.
: > 16 AA batteries ni-cad
: > Solar Battery Charger (4 AA model)
: > 40 channel 5 watt C.B. handheld (This unit will need 10 AA's)
: Way too much for a bug-out kit.
It's a lot, but I'd keep the radio. Make sure that it's damn sturdy, though.
(Another option is a 2M handheld if everybody in your group has their
amateur licenses.)
: > 50' Nylon Rope (green or black)
: Are you talking parachute cord? Or are you thinking of climbing or
: rescue? If the latter, I'd get a useable hank, like 45 meters of 10.5 or
: 11 mm kermantle, *static* rope, UIAA rated, and have a few carry it in
: place of other stuff. Couple of biners and a some webbing, 1 in. tubular
: wouldn't hurt...swammi belts and rapell braking and all; you can even make
: ascenders from webbing...
11mm is pretty heavy as rope goes. Also, does everybody need to carry a
rope? It seems to me that 2 or three for the entire group should suffice.
(At least here in KS, where there isn't that much climbing to be done.)
: Or you might think about some spectra cord. Never seen it in black or
: green though.
: > Insect Repellent (i.e. Deep Woods Off, Permetherine)
: DEET is your key here. Use it on clothes, etc. Get something like Uncle
: Ben's, it's 100% DEET.
DEET is effective, but it ain't that great for your skin. Muskol and REI
are also 100%.
: > Signal Mirror
: Often harder to see than a white square.
: > Whistle (Police Style)
: > First Aid Kit (see Personal First Aid Kit List)
: > Compass (Will be issued a county wide map, a tri-states map, and 5 mile
: > map)
: You might think of topo's. And make sure your compasses can be, and are,
: corrected for the declination of your area.
Also, go over your routes as a group and make sure that people can visualize
what the terrain looks like by looking at a topo map. It makes a trek
that much easier.
: > disposable cigarette lighter
: > 1 box Water proof matches
: > Small Magnifying Glass
: There is one on the Champion that you can use to start fires...
: I'd add more matches and some tinder.
For tinder, one trick is to take some inner bark from a basswood tree,
roll it up and crush it into a "birds-nest" and use that.
Also, flint-and-steel works pretty well if your tinder is dry.
: > Brass Wire 2-3 ft (trapping wire)
: > 1 spool 5-8 lb fishing line
: > 10 long shank fish hooks
: > 5 large eyed sewing needles
: Fishing line doesn't make for real good thread. Dental floss does.
Also, sewing a tight-weave thread is a pain in the --- with large needles.
: > (6) 1 qt ZipLock Freezer Bags
: > 1 Towel & 1 bathcloth
: > 3 socks (1 thermal pair)
: > 1 Sterno Can
: That's a lot of fish line. Get a camper's towel, around $5, and weighs
: only 3-4 ozs.
: Sterno? For what? Either go with hexamine, a zip stove or a
: propane-butane stove. Sterno doesn't work well for much of anything.
Also, the other two pairs of socks should probably be wool or a wool blend.
:
: > WEAPONS
: > Ruger 10/22 Rifle (with plastic stock)
: > >8 clips (10 rnds each)
: > 500 .22LR hollowpoint rnds
: > Rifle Cleaning Kit
: Not my choices, but...
Factory sights, or aftermarket? Scope, peep sights?
: > BOOKS (REFERENCE)
: > SAS Survival Manual
: Better you should carry something like Medicine for Mountaineering.
: Shouldn't you already know the stuff in the SAS?
: > New Testament Bible (green, small pock size if possible)
What about group members who are not religious?
: >
: > PERSONAL/FIRST AID KIT LIST
: > Asprin (25 tablets)
: > Tylenol (25 tablets)
Do you need both?
: > Intestinal Sedative (25 tablets)
Pet-peeve of mine. These don't do much for your health. (See my post which
is coming up later tonight.)
: > Antobiotic (25 tablets)
: Which type?
: > Antihistamine (25 tablets)
What kind? Benadryl?
: > 1 small bottle of iodine
: Why?
: > Surgical Blades (x2)
: Again, why?
: > Butterfly Sutures (1 package)
: Again why? At least use steristrips.
: > 4 x 4 Dressings (x 12)
: > 1 roll of 1" Silk Tape
: And for big bleeders?
Agreed. You may want to think about carrying surgipads, menstrual pads,
or the like.
Also, is silk tape really better than ordinary waterproof paper tape?
: > Multivitamin Tablets (100 tablets)
: For 3-5 days?!
: > 1 tube antibiotic ointment
: > 1 pair tweezers (Swiss Army Knife)
: > 1 small pair of scissors (Swiss Army Knife)
: > 1 toe nail clippers
: > 12 alcohol prep pads
: Ouch. And out-of-date.
Yeah, use povidone-iodine or some such instead.
: > Toothbrush & Paste
: > 1 Bar Soap or liquid consentrated soap (Antibacterial Soap)
Careful about odor-Dial has a fairly strong smell, for instance.
Also, if you worry about leaving signs of where you were, think about
using some sort of biodegradable soap instead. Otherwise, I can almost
guarantee that there will still be suds and the soap smell four days later.
: Toilet paper? You might want to read "How to Shit in the Woods," a great
: little book.
: This medicine list is a recipe for trouble. I think you need to work on
: your first aid skills considerably.
: Your bug-out bag sounds more like an sort of soldier's kit. Are you going
: off to fight a war, you merely moving from point A to point B during a
: disaster? I don't know squat about soldiering. But I do about moving
: from point A to point B, and you are surely going about it the hard way.
: I remember some of the other pack lists...sigh. And I remember a
: different group...sigh. I think I'm like Mike (tm):). See you if the
: crap ever fades.
It's fading. I didn't leave for very long. BTW, while we all probably can
find a way to disagree on anything under the sun, it's still better to
have all different perspectives represented, IMHO.
: Johannah Bradley
: > Iam4guns2
: > Survivalist
: > Silver Circle Member (local survival group)
: > http://members.aol.com/Iam4guns2/index.htm
: >
: >
--
Mike S. Medintz | Another redneck for Wilderness
"Wise Use" isn't. |"If you don't vote, don't bitch."
http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~medintz
Thomas Garman
In article <4kf3ii$1i...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, tho...@ibm.net (Mark Thomen) writes:
>
> Hmmmm; where do you hunt where the bears are armed??
>
> Mark
Chicago
--
Tom Garman KC4WAR
PCB Designer and Librarian
Charles Scripter
(med...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
> I noticed that this thread is starting to really degenerate into cheap
> shots and flames. Has anybody read the misc.survivalism FAQ?
Didn't know we had a FAQ. That must've been written up while I was
off trying to save my research from going down in flames...
> Remember the line "We did not split off of rec.guns."
I think you meant "talk.politics.guns", which is basically just one
big roving flamewar; Well, not really, it has too many facts launched
back and forth to be a _real_ flamewar.
> Whenever we discuss firearms for any great length of time, it almost
> invariably turns into something ugly. Now, talking guns is not necessarily
> a bad thing, but let's try and keep it civil, OK?
Or at least settle these arguments by seeing who can drink the most
homebrew and tell the best shaggy dog story... ;)
--
Charles Scripter * cesc...@phy.mtu.edu
Dept of Physics, Michigan Tech, Houghton, MI 49931
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there
is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of
self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government ..."
Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28
Charles Scripter
> On 8 Apr 1996, Iam4guns2 wrote:
> > Hunting/Survival Knife with whetstone
> I would think that for a bug-out bag, something like the Buck Edgemaster
> would suffice -- whetstones are heavy.
I'd carry a small file instead... (I also use it for my magnesium
firestarter; Save my knife blade for more important things).
> Or you might think about some spectra cord. Never seen it in black or
> green though.
What is spectra cord? Perhaps like chalk line? If so, someone
makes camo-colors for anchoring duck decoys. About all I carry for
cordage is a spool of braided chalk line.
> > Insect Repellent (i.e. Deep Woods Off, Permetherine)
> DEET is your key here. Use it on clothes, etc. Get something like Uncle
> Ben's, it's 100% DEET.
In a squirt bottle, not pressurized (which always seem to go dead
at the most misquito ridden times ;)
BTW, has anyone ever seen the 6-12 formula available anywhere?
(I forget 6-what, 12-what, but it was also a *name brand*) DEET tends
to be rather unhealthy stuff to put on your skin and one
recommendation I recall seeing was to use the less harmful 6-12 on
open skin and DEET on the nearby clothing.
> > Small Magnifying Glass
> There is one on the Champion that you can use to start fires...
Or you can get a Fresnel lens about the size of a credit card.
Very powerful.
> > Brass Wire 2-3 ft (trapping wire)
> > 1 spool 5-8 lb fishing line
> > 10 long shank fish hooks
> > 5 large eyed sewing needles
> Fishing line doesn't make for real good thread. Dental floss does.
Not good thread if it's monofilament, but he could go for a heavier
grade, _braided_ line. It's a lot like button and carpet thread (and
_stronger_). Though it's getting hard to find these days...
> > (6) 1 qt ZipLock Freezer Bags
> > 1 Towel & 1 bathcloth
A *small* towel, I hope.
> > 3 socks (1 thermal pair)
I hope these last 2 items are place in the ziplocks. ;) I like a
combination of quarts and gallon sizes. Maybe a few full size garbage
bags, too.
The garbage bags could be used to seal your sleeping bag, as a
ground cloth under your sleeping bag, as a poncho, or even to make a
small kitchen sink (dig a small hole and line it with the bag). Oh
yeah, you can also melt the stuff with a candle and use it to seal
leaks in boots, tents, etc. A thousand and one uses... Virtually
zero weight.
> > WEAPONS
> > Ruger 10/22 Rifle (with plastic stock)
Hmmm... Why require a plastic stock?
> > New Testament Bible (green, small pock size if possible)
^^^^^
Camo? ;)
Are you near any college campuses? Who is the religious group that
hands these out all the time?... You can probably get several for free.
> > Butterfly Sutures (1 package)
> Again why? At least use steristrips.
I've always wondered why people buy these (if they're what I think
they are). Butterflys can be made from white cloth tape. My mother
used to use them on me all the time, as a kid... ;) (yes, she was a
nurse)
I rather like the wide white cloth "sports tape". It's a strong as
duct tape (maybe more so, since it's impossible to find cloth duct
tape any more), it's not stretchy and I think it sticks better.
Useful for numerous repairs and medical uses.
> > Multivitamin Tablets (100 tablets)
> For 3-5 days?!
He might be better to trim back drastically on the multivitamin and
add in some supplements of _other_ vitamins (my favorites are the A
(beta carotene), B and C vitamins; You can load up if you get ill).
It would seem like a 6 or 8 of each would be _plenty_...
> > 1 tube antibiotic ointment
Hopefully a triple-antibiotic cream. Believe it or not, my
favorite brand is Meijer's (if you've got a Meijer store near you).
For whatever reason, the base for their cream seems to keep the scabs
much softer and less likely to tear off or re-open.
> > Toothbrush & Paste
Can one find tooth powder any more? If not, just carry a baggie of
baking soda.
> > 1 Bar Soap or liquid consentrated soap (Antibacterial Soap)
> Toilet paper? You might want to read "How to Shit in the Woods," a great
> little book.
Maybe that's why you carry antibacterial soap... ;)
Toilet paper is great stuff. Put it in a ziplock also. Also
useful for starting fires.
I have a fanny pack that can fit virtually everything I feel the
need to carry while in the woods (mostly during hunting season, in the
winter). Fitting food and water is usually my difficulty.
Mark Zen
:> In article <4kkm7l$j...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, tho...@ibm.net (Mark
:> Thomen) writes:
[snip]
:> >
:> WOW (sarcastically said), still not impressed. Any idiot can get in the
:> National Guard or drafted way back when. I believe I have read other posts
:> of yours (e.g. your bicycling adventure across the states, dropping out of
:> highschool). Sorry, I don't think you are the kind of man I would pattern
:> my life after, nor do I care for your assesments or ideas. I agree to
:> disagree with you. Good day!! Note - In order to clear the thread of our
:> little squabble, I will not respond to any more such non-sense from you.
sorry you have the wrong mark. pay more attention. i personally
don't give a shit what you think of others, but it was _me_ that
rode my bicycle around the country. whether that impresses you or
not, i don't care, but think about it. i was completely self-contained,
and alone. i had to be able to get along with everyone i met, i had
to carry every piece of gear i needed, i never knew where i could
get supplies, i never really knew where i was spending the next night,
i had to blend in, not attract attention. you would be surprised what
it really takes to "make it go, on your own, for months" ... most
people think of places like kansas as flat, but when you are on a bicycle,
you find this isn't true. i spent 8-10 hours a day on the bicycle, and
covered 80-100 miles a day. i defy you to come up with another mode of
travel that is more efficient, and does not rely on scavenging or
stealing to maintain, LONG TERM!! i carried enough tools, and spare parts
to completely strip and rebuild the bike. i also had the skills to do so.
your list is good, a little outdated, and too limited, but you don't
have to be nasty to others who have pointed out the weeknesses of the
list, after all _YOU_ asked for everyone's opinions.
:> Iam4guns2
:> Survivalist
:> Silver Circle Member (local survival group)
:> http://members.aol.com/Iam4guns2/index.htm
mark
--
---------...@netcom.com---------------------------------------------
mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_.
po box 6091 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\
longmont, co 80501-2077 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-')
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@~~~~~~~@~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@~~~~~~~~@~~~~~~~~
canoeing, sea kayaking, bicycling, snowshoeing, skiing, human powered sports
Iam4guns2
med...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Mike S. Medintz) writes:
>--
>Mike S. Medintz | Another redneck for Wilderness
>"Wise Use" isn't. |"If you don't vote, don't bitch."
>http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~medintz
>
>
>
Mike's Replies snipped
Thanks Mike. The "list" is up for review by my group in six months. I am
currently collecting data, how everyone is reacting to it, these posts,
etc.
Thanks again.
Ian 333
ideas here helpful. However, it has now become a flame war. I have seen
the list and have come up with my own ideas as to its flaws and
advantages. Of these I have responded to Mr.Iam4guns2 via E-mail. I see
the gentleman has tried well, however there are some flaws. BUT never the
less this is not the reason for my post.
Alot of people are flaming Mr. Iam because of the flame war currently
raging. I just wanted to point out that his original post did say that
this was a Beginner's List and a Minimal Requirement for his "group". In
my mind this means this is the foundation of equiptment that you should
build on. I think everyone is forgetting this, and have not even examined
his list with this in mind. Instead most have examined his list as a
"Group Standard" List that I hope it is NOT.
I think Mr.Iam has been very observent to our posts. Even I, with all of
my unfriendly "advice", have received a thank you from Mr.Iam. However, I
will have to agree with Mr. Iam on one point. This Mr.Thomen did NOT offer
friendly advice. I will post Mr.Thomen's first post.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
In <4ke7ns$r...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, iam4...@aol.com (Iam4guns2)
writes:
>(Snipped)
>Everybody that is gonna be after you will probably have guns so it stands
>to reason you better too. I know enough about survival not to require
>weapons at my disposal, but I will have one with me just in case.
Mark Thomen wrote:
<<<Good bet they aren't going to be dumb enough to arm themselves all
with .22LR rifles... which means you'll be in DEEP Caa-Caa when they
start picking you folks off from 3-400 yards.
And I like the contradiction between sentence 1 and sentence 2...>>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
This is clearly NOT friendly constructive advice. Mr.Thomen you called the
gentleman "Dumb" when at no time has he said that the .22LR was the group
standard weapon. (Meaning everyone in the group has one) If this is your
"constructive advice" Mr. Thomen, keep it.
To further show my point Mr.Iam responded earlier to a post by saying:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
<<Come on! The 10-22 is an awesome gun no doubt. But as a survival weapon?
What do you plan on using it on, squirrels? Get something that can do
some real damage. The Mini-14 is nice. But an M1 Garand can really put a
hole in something. If you feel the need for a .22 for small game get some
22 pistols and learn to shoot with them.>>
MR. IAM Wrote
Well, if you would have looked at the post it say that this is a
requirement list for beginner's. My members my update the gear at any
time. My choice is an AR-15 myself.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Does this not clearly show that Mr.Iam's group is not using the Ruger
10/22 as the "group standard" weapon.
Please, Mr.Iam and Mr.Thomen read the posts carefully in the future and
maybe we won't heat up this group so bad in the future.
Mike S. Medintz
: What is spectra cord? Perhaps like chalk line? If so, someone
: makes camo-colors for anchoring duck decoys. About all I carry for
: cordage is a spool of braided chalk line.
Just to jump in and be annoying ;), most "cordage" I've seen doesn't make
great lashing rope, if you're lashing wood together. I personally lean
towards a good 1/2" laid utility rope, but I almost never do any climbing so..
: > > Insect Repellent (i.e. Deep Woods Off, Permetherine)
: > DEET is your key here. Use it on clothes, etc. Get something like Uncle
: > Ben's, it's 100% DEET.
: In a squirt bottle, not pressurized (which always seem to go dead
: at the most misquito ridden times ;)
If you can find it, a lotion sticks to your skin a lot better than the liquid.
: BTW, has anyone ever seen the 6-12 formula available anywhere?
: (I forget 6-what, 12-what, but it was also a *name brand*) DEET tends
: to be rather unhealthy stuff to put on your skin and one
: recommendation I recall seeing was to use the less harmful 6-12 on
: open skin and DEET on the nearby clothing.
: > > Small Magnifying Glass
: > There is one on the Champion that you can use to start fires...
: Or you can get a Fresnel lens about the size of a credit card.
: Very powerful.
What is a Fresnel lens? One of the flexible plastic lenses?
: > > Brass Wire 2-3 ft (trapping wire)
: > > 1 spool 5-8 lb fishing line
: > > 10 long shank fish hooks
: > > 5 large eyed sewing needles
: > Fishing line doesn't make for real good thread. Dental floss does.
: Not good thread if it's monofilament, but he could go for a heavier
: grade, _braided_ line. It's a lot like button and carpet thread (and
: _stronger_). Though it's getting hard to find these days...
: > > (6) 1 qt ZipLock Freezer Bags
: > > 1 Towel & 1 bathcloth
: A *small* towel, I hope.
Any kind of towel will serve, though. It's amazing what you can do with
a good towel. Just ask Douglas Adams.;)
: > > 3 socks (1 thermal pair)
: I hope these last 2 items are place in the ziplocks. ;) I like a
: combination of quarts and gallon sizes. Maybe a few full size garbage
: bags, too.
: The garbage bags could be used to seal your sleeping bag, as a
: ground cloth under your sleeping bag, as a poncho, or even to make a
: small kitchen sink (dig a small hole and line it with the bag). Oh
: yeah, you can also melt the stuff with a candle and use it to seal
: leaks in boots, tents, etc. A thousand and one uses... Virtually
: zero weight.
Plus, they're a good way to keep stiff organized in your pack.
: > > WEAPONS
: > > Ruger 10/22 Rifle (with plastic stock)
: Hmmm... Why require a plastic stock?
Does he mean "synthetic in general?"
: > > New Testament Bible (green, small pock size if possible)
: ^^^^^
: Camo? ;)
: Are you near any college campuses? Who is the religious group that
: hands these out all the time?... You can probably get several for free.
: > > Butterfly Sutures (1 package)
: > Again why? At least use steristrips.
: I've always wondered why people buy these (if they're what I think
: they are). Butterflys can be made from white cloth tape. My mother
: used to use them on me all the time, as a kid... ;) (yes, she was a
: nurse)
What about plain waterproof bandage tape for this use?
: I rather like the wide white cloth "sports tape". It's a strong as
: duct tape (maybe more so, since it's impossible to find cloth duct
: tape any more), it's not stretchy and I think it sticks better.
: Useful for numerous repairs and medical uses.
A definite improvement over friction tape-it holds a _LOT_ better.
: > > Multivitamin Tablets (100 tablets)
: > For 3-5 days?!
: He might be better to trim back drastically on the multivitamin and
: add in some supplements of _other_ vitamins (my favorites are the A
: (beta carotene), B and C vitamins; You can load up if you get ill).
: It would seem like a 6 or 8 of each would be _plenty_...
A good multivitamin has all of these and more, though. Hell, carry them all.
pills don't tkae up much space.
: > > 1 tube antibiotic ointment
: Hopefully a triple-antibiotic cream. Believe it or not, my
: favorite brand is Meijer's (if you've got a Meijer store near you).
: For whatever reason, the base for their cream seems to keep the scabs
: much softer and less likely to tear off or re-open.
Unfortunately, I think Meijer's is just a MI chain.
: > > Toothbrush & Paste
: Can one find tooth powder any more? If not, just carry a baggie of
: baking soda.
Mixed with sea salt- one of the things that makes toothpaste so great is
the presence of flourine ion (F-) which keeps mouth bacteria from
reproducing. Baking soda is better than nothing, but any kind of table
salt makes it more effective.
: > > 1 Bar Soap or liquid consentrated soap (Antibacterial Soap)
: > Toilet paper? You might want to read "How to Shit in the Woods," a great
: > little book.
: Maybe that's why you carry antibacterial soap... ;)
: Toilet paper is great stuff. Put it in a ziplock also. Also
: useful for starting fires.
Does it burn hot enough? I've never had much luck with it as a firestarter.
: I have a fanny pack that can fit virtually everything I feel the
: need to carry while in the woods (mostly during hunting season, in the
: winter). Fitting food and water is usually my difficulty.
: --
: Charles Scripter * cesc...@phy.mtu.edu
: Dept of Physics, Michigan Tech, Houghton, MI 49931
--
Charles Scripter
> I will post Mr.Thomen's first post.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Mark Thomen wrote:
> <<<Good bet they aren't going to be dumb enough to arm themselves all
> with .22LR rifles... which means you'll be in DEEP Caa-Caa when they
> start picking you folks off from 3-400 yards.
Mark does have a point here. If you're travelling as an "armed
camp" a mix of weapons would be better. In fact, maybe a good
compromise is a "buddy system" of some sort. The members of the
larger group could pair off with their best friend (since you'll stick
togther that way); one could carry a "game getter" .22 and the other
could carry a heavier rifle for large game or trouble. This could be
useful if a pair gets seperated from the main group.
Or, maybe the group should make a centerfire rifle the minimum
requirement and supplement this with a .22 pack rifle or pistol. Or
use a centerfire rifle and get some custom handloads for small game;
you should be able to load most rifles down into the 1500 fps range...
Then a single rifle would fill both needs.
Now Mr.Iam4 will have to argue with his group to decide which
centerfire rifle/caliber to make as a minimum. ;)
Charles Scripter
(med...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu) wrote:
> : Ponchos are a pain. Go for gore-tex and a pack cover. You ever worn a
> : poncho in a heavy wind?
> In defense of Mr. im4guns2, ponchos have uses other than as rainwear. I use
> an army-surplus poncho and liner for a bivy/shelter tarp in cold weather,
> and as a sleeping bag in warm.
I personally like ponchos. 'Course I don't usually mind too much
if my legs get a bit wet, either (since my poncho hangs to my knees,
it's pretty well limited to my lower legs). Though I guess a rainsuit
would be nicer in cold-wet weather; too hot for me during warm
weather, though.
> : Forget the MRE's. For a bug out, I'd either do the coast-guard route or,
> : if going for luxury, freeze-dried food.
> Or, you can go with jerky/hardtack/dried fruit. For 3 days, living on
> starch alone won't kill you.
Sure! I really like that kind of stuff. Jerky, raisins, dried
apples or peaches/apricots and throw in some nuts. Hell, mix the
dried fruit, nuts and pad it out with some hulled sunflower seeds,
maybe some chocolate chips... Tasty! And just before you run out the
door, you grab you ever present block of cheese and throw it in the
pack (can't store the cheese, since it will mold; but you can rotate
it through your refridgerator). With a mix like this, you could
probably do reasonably well for quite a while.
[OK you nutritionists out there, what's missing for a reasonable
balanced diet? We've got protien, fat and vegetable matter]
> : Heavy and uncomfortable. My Dana weighs 4 lbs. 13 ozs and hold 4,700 cubic
What's a Dana? Is this the Army's new and improved "alice"? (must
be an acronym for something)
> : > Swiss Army Knife (Large, Swiss Champion recommended)
> If you really think so. Personally, I'm less than entirely satisfied with
> Swiss Army knives. They're not lockblades (bad news for your fingers),
> the blades break easily, and the hinges aren't as strong as they should be.
I carry the small Leatherman and a decent knife. If you need a
screwdriver, file and such, then throw them in... Very few of these
"one tool does it all" collections are worth carrying. The Leatherman
is the one exception I've seen. (no experience with the other new
combo-tools, such as Gerber, et.al., so I reserve judgement on them)
> : > Insect Repellent (i.e. Deep Woods Off, Permetherine)
> : DEET is your key here. Use it on clothes, etc. Get something like Uncle
> : Ben's, it's 100% DEET.
> DEET is effective, but it ain't that great for your skin. Muskol and REI
> are also 100%.
Most of the repellents are now DEET (generally between 30 & 100%).
I'm beginning to wonder if they still make some of the older (though
somewhat less effective) repellents; they weren't as harsh on open
skin.
> Also, flint-and-steel works pretty well if your tinder is dry.
Magnesium block with striker... (maybe not as clever as flint and
steel, but they work great!)
Either way, make a point of using this device whenever possible,
while camping. It gives you a good excuse to practice (since you
_really_don't_ want to try learning this out in the woods, when you're
freezing to death)
> : > Ruger 10/22 Rifle (with plastic stock)
> Factory sights, or aftermarket? Scope, peep sights?
Good point. Why _require_ a plastic stock, but leave sights and
such unspecified?...
> : > New Testament Bible (green, small pock size if possible)
> What about group members who are not religious?
Maybe there aren't any non-Christians in his group?...
> : > Asprin (25 tablets)
> : > Tylenol (25 tablets)
> Do you need both?
It's true that some people are allergic to one or the other. Maybe
each person should carry what he/she needs.
Likewise, a member should probably make any such allergies know to
the group at-large.
> Also, is silk tape really better than ordinary waterproof paper tape?
I personally dislike paper tape. I find the cloth tape sticks
better (which could be a drawback, if you're hairy like me, but...I
just live with it ;).
Let's assume that this "repair work" is being done in the field,
where this group is moving (they're probably not just sitting around).
It seems like the cloth tape holds up better under use-and-abuse.
Also, the heavy cloth tape can be used to bind sprained ankles, or
even to tape a gunstock back together... And you can tape over the
tops of blisters and such for "wear resistance".
I use the stuff to hold moleskin in place during Kendo practice.
(for those who are unfamiliar, it's Japanese fencing. It's known to be
_very hard_ on the ball of your left foot; You push with your left
leg and all that force goes on the ball of the foot. Goodbye skin...
Eventually you build up a callous, which only rips off every month or
so, instead of every single practice ;)
Charles Scripter
> Charles Scripter (cesc...@mtu.edu) wrote:
> : What is spectra cord? Perhaps like chalk line? If so, someone
> : makes camo-colors for anchoring duck decoys. About all I carry for
> : cordage is a spool of braided chalk line.
> Just to jump in and be annoying ;), most "cordage" I've seen doesn't make
> great lashing rope, if you're lashing wood together. I personally lean
> towards a good 1/2" laid utility rope, but I almost never do any climbing so..
I've had pretty good luck with braided chalk line. Similar in size
and strength to the twisted crap that's designed for netting, or
whatever, but it grips better.
> : Or you can get a Fresnel lens about the size of a credit card.
> : Very powerful.
> What is a Fresnel lens? One of the flexible plastic lenses?
Yes, a very thin (_flat_) plastic lens. You can usually find these
in bookstores; yes, they're surprisingly clear, enough to use for a
reading glass and virtually no weight.
> : A *small* towel, I hope.
> Any kind of towel will serve, though.
I was just picturing someone trying to cram a beach towel into
their "bug out bag"... ;)
Since they're planning on packing, weight is everything...
> It's amazing what you can do with
> a good towel. Just ask Douglas Adams.;)
Given a good dose of beer and some peanuts...
> : The garbage bags could be used to seal your sleeping bag, as a
> Plus, they're a good way to keep stiff organized in your pack.
Exactly. Fill the baggies up with important stuff and simply dump
it out if you need it for something more importnat.
> : > > WEAPONS
> : > > Ruger 10/22 Rifle (with plastic stock)
> : Hmmm... Why require a plastic stock?
> Does he mean "synthetic in general?"
Still... I don't see what is gained here. Add a lot of cost to an
underpowered weapon? Why? What's wrong with the factory stock?
> : I've always wondered why people buy these (if they're what I think
> : they are). Butterflys can be made from white cloth tape. My mother
> : used to use them on me all the time, as a kid... ;) (yes, she was a
> : nurse)
> What about plain waterproof bandage tape for this use?
Sure. I think about the only thing that wouldn't work so well is
the paper tape; since you're going to cut part of the tape, a fiber
reinforcment may be necessary. All you do to make a butterfly is
make 4 cuts into the tape and fold the centers in. Here's some
terrible ascii art:
|-----\ /------|
| \_____/ |
| /-----\ |
|-----/ \-------|
\ cuts made and flaps folded in
You can pull some pretty large cuts closed with these. Clean the
wound, probably pack it with antibacterial cream, stick one side down,
pull the wound closed, stick the other side down. My family doctor
was once planning to put _several_ stitches in a rather large slash in
my hand, but I told him "I think not!", so he butterflyed it closed
(looking at the traces of the scar, I would guess the cut was about
1.5" long, through the meat of the palm, opposite the thumb). If a
butterfly holds on an active kid, with that large of a cut...I don't
know why it wouldn't work almost anywhere. (besides, I hate needles...)
> : He might be better to trim back drastically on the multivitamin and
> : add in some supplements of _other_ vitamins (my favorites are the A
> : (beta carotene), B and C vitamins; You can load up if you get ill).
> : It would seem like a 6 or 8 of each would be _plenty_...
> A good multivitamin has all of these and more, though.
True, but given my horrible "student diet", I generally take a
multivitamin and add lots of A (as beta carotene; taking large doses
of A will make you light sensitive or even sick), B and C to that.
Basically homemade "stress tabs". B and C are water soluable, so it's
virtually impossible to overdose on them.
> Hell, carry them all.
> pills don't tkae up much space.
True, if properly packaged.
> : Hopefully a triple-antibiotic cream. Believe it or not, my
> : favorite brand is Meijer's (if you've got a Meijer store near you).
> : For whatever reason, the base for their cream seems to keep the scabs
> : much softer and less likely to tear off or re-open.
> Unfortunately, I think Meijer's is just a MI chain.
Too bad... I haven't experimented a lot, but K-Mart's 3X cream is
nowhere near as good. And the big name brands are very expensive
(and not as good as Meijer's). Maybe I'll have to see if WalMart
markets their own brand.
> : Can one find tooth powder any more? If not, just carry a baggie of
> : baking soda.
> Mixed with sea salt- one of the things that makes toothpaste so great is
> the presence of flourine ion (F-) which keeps mouth bacteria from
> reproducing. Baking soda is better than nothing, but any kind of table
> salt makes it more effective.
Hmmm... Hadn't thought of this. You're right. My mother said
they always used to brush with a mixture of salt and soda, when she
was young. Anyway, the dry stuff will take less room and weigh less.
> : Toilet paper is great stuff. Put it in a ziplock also. Also
> : useful for starting fires.
> Does it burn hot enough?
Depends on how many gallons of gasoline you pour on it... ;>
> I've never had much luck with it as a firestarter.
It's better as tinder, assuming it's kept dry. Use it to ignite
something more robust. Or, you use it as a wick and dose it with some
cooking oil, making an oil candle of sorts.
Iam4guns2
writes:
>Please, Mr.Iam and Mr.Thomen read the posts carefully in the future and
>maybe we won't heat up this group so bad in the future.
>
>
Ian333,
I see your point and thank you for clearing the air. However, I think it
is beating a dead horse. Several people did respond to the list in its
correct context, and (like yourself) have offered some good advice no
matter if a few toes were stepped one. Thank you once again, and sorry
about the heat.
Patton M Turner
>If you can find it, a lotion sticks to your skin a lot better than the liquid.
But it's a lot easier to spray if your hands are real dirty or may have
poison ivy rosin on them. Besides, Deet should be kept on the clothes if
possable. I use lotion sunblock though.
>What is a Fresnel lens? One of the flexible plastic lenses?
Yes, the ridges act like prisms and provide the magnification. Same
principle is often used on lights.
>: I hope these last 2 items are place in the ziplocks. ;) I like a
>: combination of quarts and gallon sizes. Maybe a few full size garbage
>: bags, too.
Green for low profile, Orange for rescue.
>: > > Butterfly Sutures (1 package)
>: > Again why? At least use steristrips.
>: I've always wondered why people buy these (if they're what I think
>: they are). Butterflys can be made from white cloth tape. My mother
>: used to use them on me all the time, as a kid... ;) (yes, she was a
>: nurse)
Steristrips beat butterflys. I wouldn't won't to try making butterflys
w/o real clean hands and shears. Weight and cost are negliable.
Pat
Steve Struthers
<stuff snipped>
>I disagree with those who would argue for a completely uniform choice
>of weaponry for all members of a group. Be it in offense or defense,
>any tactically viable group must have layers of engagement. For
>example, the U.S. Army employs Light Machine Guns (LMG (aka M-60)),
>Squad Automatic Weapons (SAW (M249)), and Individual Weapons (aka
>M16). This allows them to effectively (depending, of course, upon
>training and motivation of the troops) engage targets beginning at
>1200 meters to 800 meters to 400 meters to 0 meters. (If they issue
>bayonets, how wonderful).
Most infantry engagements take place between 200 - 600m. I'd love to
know how a section of infantry (equipped as noted above) would be
capable of engaging enemy troops 1200m away.
Do you know how difficult it is hitting targets 1200m away when all
you've got are just the iron battle sights on your rifle, or if you're
lucky, an optical sight? Even the best soldiers are hard pressed to
hit targets more than 600m away.
Consider too, that combat rarely offers the ideal conditions found on
the range. In a combat environment, the average foot soldier is going
to be cold, wet, hungry, thirsty, and tired. In short, in no shape to
lay down more than broadly aimed defensive or suppressive fire when
his section stumbles across a contact.
Wisdom Personified
: On 8 Apr 1996, Iam4guns2 wrote:
<snip>
: > Green Rain Poncho (big enough for pack)
: I'd lose the ski-mask, except in winter. I'd add underwear and
: non-cotton socks. And some normal clothes.
: Ponchos are a pain. Go for gore-tex and a pack cover. You ever worn a
: poncho in a heavy wind?
Big mistake to loose the poncho. I know from experience that a poncho is
a pain but your rain suit doesnt come even close to the versatility of a
poncho. The discomfort with the versatility is better IMHO than having
something with only one purpose.
Me
far1...@global.gc.net
><stuff snipped>
>>I disagree with those who would argue for a completely uniform choice
>>of weaponry for all members of a group. Be it in offense or defense,
>>any tactically viable group must have layers of engagement. For
>>example, the U.S. Army employs Light Machine Guns (LMG (aka M-60)),
>>Squad Automatic Weapons (SAW (M249)), and Individual Weapons (aka
>>M16). This allows them to effectively (depending, of course, upon
>>training and motivation of the troops) engage targets beginning at
>>1200 meters to 800 meters to 400 meters to 0 meters. (If they issue
>>bayonets, how wonderful).
Bayonets, how useless.
Keep in mind that the above weapons only use two different cartridges,
that they are backed by trained armorers for repair and replacement,
and there is support logistics to replace ammo.
For a small, independant unit, consistancy makes sense.
Strider
>us...@abcs.com writes:
><stuff snipped>
>>I disagree with those who would argue for a completely uniform choice
>>of weaponry for all members of a group. Be it in offense or defense,
>>any tactically viable group must have layers of engagement. For
>>example, the U.S. Army employs Light Machine Guns (LMG (aka M-60)),
>>Squad Automatic Weapons (SAW (M249)), and Individual Weapons (aka
>>M16). This allows them to effectively (depending, of course, upon
>>training and motivation of the troops) engage targets beginning at
>>1200 meters to 800 meters to 400 meters to 0 meters. (If they issue
>>bayonets, how wonderful).
>Most infantry engagements take place between 200 - 600m. I'd love to
>know how a section of infantry (equipped as noted above) would be
>capable of engaging enemy troops 1200m away.
>Do you know how difficult it is hitting targets 1200m away when all
>you've got are just the iron battle sights on your rifle, or if you're
>lucky, an optical sight? Even the best soldiers are hard pressed to
>hit targets more than 600m away.
>Consider too, that combat rarely offers the ideal conditions found on
>the range. In a combat environment, the average foot soldier is going
>to be cold, wet, hungry, thirsty, and tired. In short, in no shape to
>lay down more than broadly aimed defensive or suppressive fire when
>his section stumbles across a contact.
Hi,
I think the point is that in restricting a group's arsenal to one or
two calibers/weapons, you lose versitility. While there may be an
advantage gained by being able to share ammo, with such a narrow
restriction, a group also loses the ability to use ammo that may be
available if the opportunity arises. Granted that survival groups are
defensive in nature I would think that a variety of weapons in the
most common calibers/gauges would be better. I think that a good mix
for civilans would be:
Long Guns:
12g shotguns
20g shotguns
.22 rifles
.223 rifles
7.62 x 39mm rifles
Handguns (Optional - very limited use)
.357/.38 revolvers
9mm autos
.22 revolver or auto
.45 ACP auto
I say that handguns are limited because the only real advantage is
that they can be concealed. Not a real survivalist advantage. A long
gun works better in any case except perhaps where one-handed operation
is concerned and even then a lightweight carbine can be used with one
hand. I think a good "His/Hers" combo would be, say her a 20g pump
shotgun & his a high power rifle with a .22 stuck in the pack for
hunting.
Strider
E-mail: strid...@aol.com
Iam4guns2
med...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Mike S. Medintz) writes:
>: > Toilet paper? You might want to read "How to Shit in the Woods," a
great
>: > little book.
>
>: Maybe that's why you carry antibacterial soap... ;)
The person who commented about the Toilet Paper in the first sentence here
also denounced the MRE's by saying ": Forget the MRE's. For a bug out, I'd
either do the coast-guard route or, if going for luxury, freeze-dried
food." In defense of the MRE's, they have toilet paper in them (another
reason why they were selected).
>
>: Toilet paper is great stuff. Put it in a ziplock also. Also
>: useful for starting fires.
>
>Does it burn hot enough? I've never had much luck with it as a
firestarter.
Yes toilet paper is a good for fire tender, but it does need a little heat
to get going.
Abe D. Lockman
(Steve Struthers) wrote:
> Do you know how difficult it is hitting targets 1200m away when all
> you've got are just the iron battle sights on your rifle, or if you're
> lucky, an optical sight? Even the best soldiers are hard pressed to
> hit targets more than 600m away.
>
> Consider too, that combat rarely offers the ideal conditions found on
> the range. In a combat environment, the average foot soldier is going
> to be cold, wet, hungry, thirsty, and tired. In short, in no shape to
> lay down more than broadly aimed defensive or suppressive fire when
> his section stumbles across a contact.
I believe the post you're responding too referred to squad, platoon, and
company level automatic weapons. From my reading (haven't done it
myself), medium/heavy machine guns are often "walked" (i.e., watch the
dirt spurts and adjust) onto the target at ranges up to 1000 meters or so.
adl
Charles Scripter
> >: I've always wondered why people buy these (if they're what I think
> >: they are). Butterflys can be made from white cloth tape. My mother
> >: used to use them on me all the time, as a kid... ;) (yes, she was a
> >: nurse)
> Steristrips beat butterflys.
I don't believe I've seen these. Can you give a brief description?
And why are they so much better?
> I wouldn't won't to try making butterflys
> w/o real clean hands and shears. Weight and cost are negliable.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Well, I wouldn't let someone work on me unless they had real clean
hands... Nor would I work on someone unless I had clean hands; I'm a
bit of a stickler that way. Of course, the wound could be isolated by
placing a clean pad with antibiotic cream across the top and then draw
the wound closed with a butterfly over the top of that. Cover this
with a loose dressing to keep it clean, that still lets it breathe...
Having been raised by a mother who was a nurse for 40 years or so, I
learned a bit about preventing infections and such (often _first_hand_,
if you get my drift... ;).
I look at the situation differently than some. Specialty items are
nice, but they are _just_that_, *specialty*. To tell the truth, I
can't afford to buy every specialty item for every thing I'm involved
in; instead of this incredibly expensive route, I am a master of
improvisation. I practice this every time I go camping, every time I
go into the woods... If I forget some "indispensible item", I don't
go back for it, I make do without it (some would say that you wouldn't
forget it, if it were indispensible). This is good practice. Try
this when it's not life threatening and the experience will carry over
to when it _is_ life threatening. Basically, if I can carry a more
generic item that will do the same job and many others, that's most
likely what you will find in my pack. I've been working hard to learn
how to get by with _less_ junk. Since we're talking about a "bug out
bag" rather than a fixed/permanent medical kit, I think such an
improvisation is appropriate.
Again, I am interested in learning more about these Steristrips,
since I may want to include some in my auto first-aid kit (a more
fixed/permanent kit than the BoB). I have room to include more stuff.
Charles Scripter
> med...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Mike S. Medintz) writes:
> >If you can find it, a lotion sticks to your skin a lot better than the liquid.
> But it's a lot easier to spray if your hands are real dirty or may have
> poison ivy rosin on them. Besides, Deet should be kept on the clothes if
This reminds me of something. Many people are allergic to poison
ivy (no, believe it or not, not _everyone_ has an allergic reaction;
though even those "immune" folks can quickly develop a reaction after
repeated contact). My folks "old time" recipe for preventing the
problem was to wash thoroughly with a FAT soap such as Fels Naptha
(most soaps are _oil_ soaps, e.g. Ivory). The oil soaps appear to
just spread the irritating oil around, whereas the fat soaps tend to
grab these oils and suspend them in solution. Keep in mind that Fels
is rather harsh and can cause its own skin reaction.
And should you actually get the damn blisters (I've only had this
once, since I was "immune". I scratched some misquito bites on my
ankles... Argghh! ;), I found that Jewelweed takes care of it pretty
quickly (it's found in swampy areas). I had heard it works, but used
it differently than "prescribed". The suggested method was to smear
the juice on the area, but every evening I covered the affected area
with the leaves and covered this with a dressing (felt great!). In
the morning they would be dry and I'd wash them off. The symptoms
disappeared within 2-3 days.
> >What is a Fresnel lens? One of the flexible plastic lenses?
> Yes, the ridges act like prisms and provide the magnification. Same
> principle is often used on lights.
The "Fresnel" principle... ;) [check your favorite Optics book
for details]
> >: combination of quarts and gallon sizes. Maybe a few full size garbage
> >: bags, too.
> Green for low profile, Orange for rescue.
Excellent idea!
Charles Scripter
(steve.s...@odyssey.on.ca) wrote:
> Most infantry engagements take place between 200 - 600m. I'd love to
> know how a section of infantry (equipped as noted above) would be
> capable of engaging enemy troops 1200m away.
I thought that most engagements took place at about 50 meters. If
I recall correctly, the early versions of the M16 were designed for
operation in this range (based upon interviews with several Generals).
Some "geek" within the military decided that they should be accurate
to 600m, so they had to be redesigned to improve accuracy, since they
weren't for designed for that range...
If I'm wrong, I'm sure some military historian-type out there will
correct me. (feel free to do so, since I'm pulling this from memory)
Richard A. De Castro
>us...@abcs.com writes:
><stuff snipped>
>>I disagree with those who would argue for a completely uniform choice
>>of weaponry for all members of a group. Be it in offense or defense,
>>any tactically viable group must have layers of engagement. For
>>example, the U.S. Army employs Light Machine Guns (LMG (aka M-60)),
>>Squad Automatic Weapons (SAW (M249)), and Individual Weapons (aka
>>M16). This allows them to effectively (depending, of course, upon
>>training and motivation of the troops) engage targets beginning at
>>1200 meters to 800 meters to 400 meters to 0 meters. (If they issue
>>bayonets, how wonderful).
>Most infantry engagements take place between 200 - 600m. I'd love to
>know how a section of infantry (equipped as noted above) would be
>capable of engaging enemy troops 1200m away.
At 1200 m, the drill is to call for 4" mortars, divarty, and fast movers
with snakes and napes. Just get the grid reference right.
Or, my personal favorite, a 15,000 lb bomb dropped from a C-130.
When you care enough to toss the very best.....
us...@abcs.com
>><stuff snipped>
>>>I disagree with those who would argue for a completely uniform choice
>>>of weaponry for all members of a group. Be it in offense or defense,
>>>any tactically viable group must have layers of engagement. For
>>>example, the U.S. Army employs Light Machine Guns (LMG (aka M-60)),
>>>Squad Automatic Weapons (SAW (M249)), and Individual Weapons (aka
>>>M16). This allows them to effectively (depending, of course, upon
>>>training and motivation of the troops) engage targets beginning at
>>>1200 meters to 800 meters to 400 meters to 0 meters. (If they issue
>>>bayonets, how wonderful).
>Bayonets, how useless.
Yeah, I know. Strange thing, too. . .when I first joined the Army,
they took away all my possessions, my pocketknife included. And what
was the first damned thing they gave me ?
A bayonet.
>Keep in mind that the above weapons only use two different cartridges,
>that they are backed by trained armorers for repair and replacement,
>and there is support logistics to replace ammo.
>For a small, independant unit, consistancy makes sense.
To play devil's advocate : (because I essentially agree with you)
Yes, consistency makes sense. And that's why I limited the long-arms
to 2 calibers (.223 and .308). My actual preference (oh boy, I better
get ready for the response to this one) is the .223.
In my own personal situation. I have several smaller statured persons
who may be pressed into service. Being as the only acceptable .308
semi-autos to me are the .308 Galil and the Springfield M1A Bush Rifle
(both of which I own), these rifles are simply too large/heavy for all
members of my "group" to carry or use. So, by default, the .223 is
the standard for my situation. Everyone in my entourage, if you will,
is capable of carrying and using a CAR15 or the modified Galil SAR's
we have.
Heck I even toyed with the idea of using the heavier .223 bullets (68
grain +) exclusively, including in a long-range Tactical Precision
Rifle, and have a couple of thousand rounds of the reloaded and sealed
ammo around here for just that purpose (along with a modified Rem 700
with a 1 in 7" twist to stabilize the 80 grain bullets).
All for the sake of interchangeability.
Handguns are all .45 ACP.
I would take issue with how you plan on supplying such a large demand
for ammunition. Surely with a more diverse choice of calibers, the
possiblity of obtaining a usable caliber is greater. Yes, the
military has the capability of resupply, but do survivalists?
Moreover, survivalists, if forced to actually defend themselves with
their firearms, shouldn't use the same techniques espoused by the
military. Military tactics are usually based upon the assumption that
a unit will not outdistance their resupply lines. A survivalist must,
by nature, always assume they will have NO supply lines.
I hesitate to even consider commenting upon the most obvious method of
resupply of ammunition. But what is to be done?
How much ammo should be carried?
Just for the sake of argument.
Geoffrey L.Hardin
geo...@abcs.com
us...@abcs.com
>us...@abcs.com writes:
><stuff snipped>
>> For example, the U.S. Army employs Light Machine Guns (LMG (aka M-60)),
>>Squad Automatic Weapons (SAW (M249)), and Individual Weapons (aka
>>M16). This allows them to effectively (depending, of course, upon
>>training and motivation of the troops) engage targets beginning at
>>1200 meters to 800 meters to 400 meters to 0 meters. (If they issue
>>bayonets, how wonderful).
>Most infantry engagements take place between 200 - 600m
Well, according to most recent army doctrine (Desert Playground
notwithstanding), most infantry engagements actually take place at
ranges less than 150 meters.
>> I'd love to
>know how a section of infantry (equipped as noted above) would be
>capable of engaging enemy troops 1200m away.
You are correct, my mistake. Maximum engagement range of the M60 LMG
is 1100 meters.
>Do you know how difficult it is hitting targets 1200m away when all
>you've got are just the iron battle sights on your rifle, or if you're
>lucky, an optical sight?
Actually, yes I do. Granted it was with a .50 BMG out past 1000
meters and a .300 Win Magnum out to 1050 m. And, of course, an M60
LMG.
>Even the best soldiers are hard pressed to
>hit targets more than 600m away.
Haven't been to a military rifle range, recently, have you? With the
recent budget cutbacks in the military, even qualifying Marksman at 25
meters is becoming a major accomplishment. This is a pretty sad state
of affairs when more and more soldiers, grunts included, are losing
their capability to shoot straight. Army should take a hint from the
Marines, teach them to shoot first, everything else comes second.
Hell, even SOCOM is finding it difficult to obtain necessary funding
to obtain and maintain prescribed weapon competency.
>Consider too, that combat rarely offers the ideal conditions found on
>the range. In a combat environment, the average foot soldier is going
>to be cold, wet, hungry, thirsty, and tired. In short, in no shape to
>lay down more than broadly aimed defensive or suppressive fire when
>his section stumbles across a contact.
Well, it is mighty difficult to "stumble" across a contact 1100 meters
away, or even 200 - 600 meters away. Such actions (stumbling) would
constitute a near ambush which, again according to Army Doctrine,
would most likely result in those soldiers immediately in the Kill
Zone turning towards their enemy and charging (all the while screaming
valiantly and shooting as fast as their little 3 round burst
mechanisms would allow) in an effort to break the ambush and suppress
enemy fire.
Also, remember that Army training does not emphasize accuracy. Rule
#1 in tactical fire fights at and above the squad level is to "gain
fire superiority". I.e., lay down the most fire to get their heads
down. Standard infantry tactics would then have one part of the unit
break away and flank the enemy forces, be they static or fluid. For
that matter, 9 times out of 10, a grunt unit would simply lay down
suppressive fire, advance to the rear to a respectable distance and
call in Arty. The number 1 killer of soldiers in combat is not your
groundpounder. . .it is artillery (or MRE's, depending upon who you
talk to).
Damn Redlegs.
You must take into consideration that the heavy weaponry used by the
military is not intended to be accurate. The M60 and M249 would not
be effective Machineguns if they were accurate. Machineguns are
supposed to lay down a dispersed area of fire. This area is called a
"beaten zone". LMG's and SAW's are AREA WEAPONS ONLY. The operator
doesn't chose a single target to kill. The operator directs his fire
towards a concentration of targets or any targets that are in need of
suppression in the course of his particular mission. F. J. Vollmer
aside, machineguns should not be considered sniper weaponry.
Moreover, armed with a tactical precision rifle (what I recommended
for a survival situation as opposed to a LMG or SAW) it would be very
unwise to engage any target 1100 meters away. In a survival
situation, unless it has boiled down to straight out-and-out,
Lebanon-style combat, you shouldn't engage someone that far away
unless they posed an absolute and direct threat to your survivability.
I merely stated that, with practice, the operator of a Tactical
Precision Rifle would be able to engage targets up to 1100 (corrected
from 1200) meters away, which is within the engagement envelope as
demonstrated with standard Straight Leg Infantry weaponry.
And yes, while it is very difficult and takes much diligence and
practice, it is still possible to engage those targets successfully.
I apologize to those lurkers for whom this post was exceedingly long.
Geoffrey L. Hardin,
A pompous, conceited, arrogant ass, who is still looking for the M16
magazine adapter for Galil rifles. (all I need is one! I can make more
after I get an original)
aka : geo...@abcs.com
21012d
Far from the topic of begineers gear but as for
doctrines of engagement and equipment, I would
suggest reading "The River and the Gauntlet" by
military historian S.L.A Marshal....about the actions
nov 1950 as the Chinese Communists attacked the 8th army
in Korea (Chongchon River)
Not too much for the survivalist, lots of grist for
both sides of the weapons and engagement diagreement.
Les
Richard A. De Castro
>On Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:33:45 GMT, Patton M Turner (ptu...@netcom.com) wrote:
>> >: I've always wondered why people buy these (if they're what I think
>> >: they are). Butterflys can be made from white cloth tape. My mother
>> >: used to use them on me all the time, as a kid... ;) (yes, she was a
>> >: nurse)
>> Steristrips beat butterflys.
> I don't believe I've seen these. Can you give a brief description?
>And why are they so much better?
Picture if you will a 4" piece of 1/4" wide strapping tape (the kind with
the filaments in it). Now, picture it with skin-friendly adhesive. That's
what steristrips are.
They stick better than butterflies (especially with some tincture of benzoin),
and approximate the wound edges better than butterflies - and they're a whole
lot easier to use than sutures.
>> I wouldn't won't to try making butterflys
>> w/o real clean hands and shears. Weight and cost are negliable.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
> Well, I wouldn't let someone work on me unless they had real clean
>hands... Nor would I work on someone unless I had clean hands; I'm a
>bit of a stickler that way. Of course, the wound could be isolated by
>placing a clean pad with antibiotic cream across the top and then draw
>the wound closed with a butterfly over the top of that. Cover this
>with a loose dressing to keep it clean, that still lets it breathe...
>Having been raised by a mother who was a nurse for 40 years or so, I
>learned a bit about preventing infections and such (often _first_hand_,
>if you get my drift... ;).
If I get your drift, butterflies wouldn't work at all, since they are too
small to work over a pad (with or without antibiotic cream).
Steristrips are used directly against a wound, then they are bandaged.
Iam4guns2
Scripter) writes:
>
>> : > Ruger 10/22 Rifle (with plastic stock)
>
>> Factory sights, or aftermarket? Scope, peep sights?
>
> Good point. Why _require_ a plastic stock, but leave sights and
>such unspecified?...
>
the wording on this one has already been changed to "synthetic stock". The
hard poly"whatever" stocks will not break like wood. As far as the sights
go, everyone has their own opinions as to what works for them. As long as
they can hit the target, I don't care if they shoot from the hip. (haha)
>> : > New Testament Bible (green, small pock size if possible)
>
>> What about group members who are not religious?
>
> Maybe there aren't any non-Christians in his group?...
>
Currently their are no non-Christians in my group. This was an item that
was suggested by a group member and was voted in immediately.
Charles Scripter
(deca...@netcom.com) wrote:
> Picture if you will a 4" piece of 1/4" wide strapping tape (the kind with
> the filaments in it). Now, picture it with skin-friendly adhesive. That's
> what steristrips are.
OK, it sounds like the main difference is that they're sterile.
> They stick better than butterflies (especially with some tincture of benzoin),
> and approximate the wound edges better than butterflies - and they're a whole
> lot easier to use than sutures.
I guess I don't see why they would stick better. Unless the
adhesive on the cloth "sports tape" is severely affected by benzoin,
whereas the steristrips are not...
Maybe you're confusing my "butterfly" with some commercially
available product that someone calls a "butterfly".
> If I get your drift, butterflies wouldn't work at all, since they are too
> small to work over a pad (with or without antibiotic cream).
You can MAKE them as large (or as long) as you want. If I wanted,
I could take my 2" wide roll of white tape, make a butterfly that's a
foot long by 2" wide, with non-sticking region (to bridge the wound)
that's about 0.75" wide. You can adjust the size to fit the situation.
What you do is to decide how long and wide the adhesive part needs
to be, decide how much non-sticking region you want, then make 4 cuts
about 1/3 the way through the tape, at an angle towards the center.
This leaves you 2 flaps in the center, which you fold onto the sticky
center (making a non-sticky center).
It's really easy, but unfortunately I can't really show you, since
we've not standing together in the same room.
> Steristrips are used directly against a wound, then they are bandaged.
Being sterile, you could do this. This seems to be the main
difference. These "butterflys" were the old medical standard (used by
doctors and nurses for decades). I consider them "tried and proven".
Charles Scripter
> In article <4l16c5$a...@fishlab0.fsh.mtu.edu>, cesc...@mtu.edu (Charles
> Scripter) writes:
> > Good point. Why _require_ a plastic stock, but leave sights and
> >such unspecified?...
>
> the wording on this one has already been changed to "synthetic stock". The
> hard poly"whatever" stocks will not break like wood. As far as the sights
I've never seen a stock break and almost everyone I know uses wood.
Likewise, you would have to take a pretty serious fall to break one.
And such a stock could probably be repaired with some cloth tape,
since a .22 has very little recoil. I could see a synthetic on a
centerfire rifle, but on a .22 this seems like a lot of added expense
for *very little* gain. That money might better be spent on something
more important (like food, or a better backpack, or...)
> >> What about group members who are not religious?
> >
> > Maybe there aren't any non-Christians in his group?...
>
> Currently their are no non-Christians in my group. This was an item that
> was suggested by a group member and was voted in immediately.
What if a non-Christian wishes to join? Would you then waive this
requirement? Something to think about before you need to do it... Or
will they have to carry a New Testament next to their Thor's Hammer? ;)
Richard A. De Castro
>On Sat, 20 Apr 1996 19:08:19 GMT, Richard A. De Castro
>(deca...@netcom.com) wrote:
>> Picture if you will a 4" piece of 1/4" wide strapping tape (the kind with
>> the filaments in it). Now, picture it with skin-friendly adhesive. That's
>> what steristrips are.
> OK, it sounds like the main difference is that they're sterile.
>> They stick better than butterflies (especially with some tincture of benzoin),
>> and approximate the wound edges better than butterflies - and they're a whole
>> lot easier to use than sutures.
> I guess I don't see why they would stick better. Unless the
>adhesive on the cloth "sports tape" is severely affected by benzoin,
>whereas the steristrips are not...
> Maybe you're confusing my "butterfly" with some commercially
>available product that someone calls a "butterfly".
I was thinking of commercial butterflies.
>> If I get your drift, butterflies wouldn't work at all, since they are too
>> small to work over a pad (with or without antibiotic cream).
> You can MAKE them as large (or as long) as you want. If I wanted,
>I could take my 2" wide roll of white tape, make a butterfly that's a
>foot long by 2" wide, with non-sticking region (to bridge the wound)
>that's about 0.75" wide. You can adjust the size to fit the situation.
> What you do is to decide how long and wide the adhesive part needs
>to be, decide how much non-sticking region you want, then make 4 cuts
>about 1/3 the way through the tape, at an angle towards the center.
>This leaves you 2 flaps in the center, which you fold onto the sticky
>center (making a non-sticky center).
> It's really easy, but unfortunately I can't really show you, since
>we've not standing together in the same room.
I know how to make butterflies, I think I had to learn for my first aid
merit badge, back in the dawn of time.
>> Steristrips are used directly against a wound, then they are bandaged.
> Being sterile, you could do this. This seems to be the main
>difference. These "butterflys" were the old medical standard (used by
>doctors and nurses for decades). I consider them "tried and proven".
Steristrips have been in use in emergency medicine for at least 20 years.
They work, they're used for minor lacerations of the skin only, and for
wounds that aren't going to need long periods to approximate and heal.
For those, it's multiple layers of chromic and vicryl, or chromic and staples.
Steristrips are better, imho, than butterflies, since they're sterile.
Your elephant butterflies <G> don't offer any advantage over conventioal
bandaging techniques that I can see.
>--
>Charles Scripter * cesc...@phy.mtu.edu
>Dept of Physics, Michigan Tech, Houghton, MI 49931
--
Charles Scripter
> Your elephant butterflies <G> don't offer any advantage over conventioal
> bandaging techniques that I can see.
Hmmm... Would an elephant stand still while I stick butterflys all
over him?... ;)
jqpu...@colby.edu
A. De Castro) wrote:
> cesc...@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter) writes:
>
> >On Sat, 20 Apr 1996 19:08:19 GMT, Richard A. De Castro
> >(deca...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
> >> Picture if you will a 4" piece of 1/4" wide strapping tape (the kind with
> >> the filaments in it). Now, picture it with skin-friendly adhesive. That's
> >> what steristrips are.
>
One other item that works very well in a pinch is duct tape. Because of
its strength and ability to adhere well to almost anything you can use it
to close relatively major wounds. It will hurt like a bugger when removed
but this is better than bleeding to death, IMHO
Hal Lillywhite
>One other item that works very well in a pinch is duct tape. Because of
>its strength and ability to adhere well to almost anything you can use it
>to close relatively major wounds. It will hurt like a bugger when removed
>but this is better than bleeding to death, IMHO
Whoa!!! There are other, safer ways to stop bleeding. Close a
wound in the field and you are probably sentencing the patient to an
agonizing death from infection! Wounds need to be completely
cleaned and disinfected before they are closed, something darn few
people can do in the field. Even then a major wound may become
infected, usually hospital treatment includes antibiotics.
Proper treatment includes cleansing, disinfection and packing the
wound *open* with sterile material soaked in disinfectant. Then it
must be covered with a dressing which keeps out dirt but allows air
circulation.
Stop bleeding with direct pressure, elevation and dressings.
(Source: The wilderness medicine class I took)
Bob Yates
In line with this thread, have you heard of using "super glue" to close a
wound? I've heard of some machinist using it after cutting theirselves
on jagged metal, they said no bad effects, but seems like you would want
to make sure the wound was well cleaned out, otherwise you would seal the
foreign matter in.
Hal Lillywhite
>In line with this thread, have you heard of using "super glue" to close a
>wound? I've heard of some machinist using it after cutting theirselves
>on jagged metal, they said no bad effects, but seems like you would want
>to make sure the wound was well cleaned out, otherwise you would seal the
>foreign matter in.
Well, you can get away with a lot on minor cuts. Even if the
treatment is dangerous you have a good chance of getting by.
However this treatment is *not* recommended. Super glue is not
exactly medically pure aside from the concern you raise about
sealing in foreign matter. I wouldn't do it. Most minor wounds
just need cleaning and protection from further injury so just be
sure they are clean and then dress and bandage appropriately.
Probably the machinist didn't want the bandage getting in his way
and he may get away with it but it is still not recommended.
Conway Yee
Bob Yates writes:
>In line with this thread, have you heard of using "super glue" to close a
>wound?
Hal Lillywite rebuts:
>Well, you can get away with a lot on minor cuts. Even if the
>treatment is dangerous you have a good chance of getting by.
Quite true.
>However this treatment is *not* recommended.
Not true. While not FDA approved in the US, cyanoacrylates have been
used for years in Europe in lieu of stitches. Check the literature.
There should be stuff in the European Emergency Medicine literature.
The major problem is that Crazy Glue is very stiff and tends to rub
off. This means that the glue has to be re-applied every few days.
Cosmetically, the results are good with little in the way of higher
incidence of infection. Healing just takes a little longer than with
air exposed wounds. There is a FDA approval study going on right now
on a glue-based replacement for stitches.
>Super glue is not exactly medically pure aside from the concern you
>raise about sealing in foreign matter. I wouldn't do it.
To each his own.
> Most minor wounds just need cleaning and protection from further
>injury so just be sure they are clean and then dress and bandage
>appropriately.
True but for the class of wounds which require stitches, glue based
treatments have their uses.
--
| 73 de Conway Yee, N2JWQ | DON'T
| EMAIL : y...@mipg.upenn.edu | TREAD
| TELEPHONE : | ON
| FAX : | ME!
Strider
Bob Yates <byat...@pop.intellinet.com> wrote:
>deca...@netcom.com (Richard A. De Castro) wrote:
>>
>>Steristrips are better, imho, than butterflies, since they're sterile.
>In line with this thread, have you heard of using "super glue" to close a
>wound? I've heard of some machinist using it after cutting theirselves
>on jagged metal, they said no bad effects, but seems like you would want
>to make sure the wound was well cleaned out, otherwise you would seal the
>foreign matter in.
Hey, people used to cauterize wounds with a red hot poker, too. It
doesn't mean that I would go that route!!!
Strider
E-mail: strid...@aol.com
Hal Lillywhite
>Not true. While not FDA approved in the US, cyanoacrylates have been
>used for years in Europe in lieu of stitches. Check the literature.
I admit I don't know what the Europeans use. However I would bet
any cyanoacrylate approved for closing wounds there is specially
approved for the purpose and checked to be sure it doesn't have any
dangerous impurities. Not so what is available on this side of the
pond, I wouldn't want to put it in my body.
However this still misses the major danger: Darn few of us are
qualified to cleanse a wound well enough that it can safely be
closed. Proper treatment involves a lot more than closing the wound
and if the rest of the treatment is not done properly you have set
up the patient for a nasty infection.
Alex Osinski
strid...@aol.com (Strider) wrote:
>Bob Yates <byat...@pop.intellinet.com> wrote:
>
>>deca...@netcom.com (Richard A. De Castro) wrote:
>>>
>>>Steristrips are better, imho, than butterflies, since they're sterile.
>
>>In line with this thread, have you heard of using "super glue" to close a
>>wound? I've heard of some machinist using it after cutting theirselves
u would seal the foreign matter in.
>
>Hey, people used to cauterize wounds with a red hot poker, too. It
>doesn't mean that I would go that route!!!
>
>Strider
>E-mail: strid...@aol.com
>
>
invented as a surgical adhesive). About the only differece between
medical Krazy Glue and the stuff you get in the store is that the medical
glue has blue dye in it. It never made muster with the FDA, but I
understand that a lot of surgeons use it anway, especially for repairing
eye and heart tissue which they cannot sew. The techniques are kept
somewhat confidential since the stuff is mildly toxic for the blood
stream. It seems best for closing shallow wounds (like a long shallow
cut) and separationms of layers of outer tissue (like you might in a
schrapnel wound).
Bond
In article <4lolir$8...@macs.mxim.com>, ha...@macs.mxim.com says...
>
>In article <jqpublic-250...@dip-10.student-union.colby.edu>
jqpublic@c
>olby.edu writes:
>
>>One other item that works very well in a pinch is duct tape. Because of
>>its strength and ability to adhere well to almost anything you can use
it
>>to close relatively major wounds. It will hurt like a bugger when
removed
>>but this is better than bleeding to death, IMHO
>
>Whoa!!! There are other, safer ways to stop bleeding. Close a
>wound in the field and you are probably sentencing the patient to an
>agonizing death from infection! Wounds need to be completely
>cleaned and disinfected before they are closed, something darn few
>people can do in the field. Even then a major wound may become
>infected, usually hospital treatment includes antibiotics.
>
>Proper treatment includes cleansing, disinfection and packing the
>wound *open* with sterile material soaked in disinfectant. Then it
>must be covered with a dressing which keeps out dirt but allows air
>circulation.
>
I can vouch for that. Just recently had a syst removed. The Doc. then
filled the cavity with a sterile material ( looked much like a shoe
string) untill' the cavity was full. I wish I had asked what she soaked
the material in. FYI, the local used before the incision was "Novacaine"
(hope it's spelled right).