The Art of War
Strider
SUN TZU ON THE ART OF WAR
THE OLDEST MILITARY TREATISE IN THE WORLD
http://www.fas.org/man/artofwar.htm
A good, simple translation.
Strider
--
"Did you exchange a walk on part in a war for a lead role in a
cage?" - Pink Floyd
Visit my home page at:
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Strider
Mbstorage wrote:
>
> Yeah, yeah, we all know the book, it giveth some a warm fuzzy, and in truth, is
> just that...a warm fuzzy.
>
> One of the many, "You'll read everything you wanted to read."
>
> Thumbs down on the book. It doesn't offer a single valid thing worth having.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Mbstorage
Jeffrey C. Dege
>Yeah, yeah, we all know the book, it giveth some a warm fuzzy, and in truth, is
>just that...a warm fuzzy.
Typical of Chinese literature - so vague and imprecise that it always
seems to be applicable, while providing very little in the way of
specific guidance.
Roman literature of the period was far more precise and specific.
And hence of far more use to those they were actually intended for.
They express their meaning in a way that can't be misinterpreted as
guidance for doing business over a golf game.
From book three of "Epitoma Rei Militari", by Flavius Vegetius Renatus:
. How the army's health is controlled.
Next I shall explain a subject to which special thought must be
devoted_how the army's health is preserved_that is, by means of site,
water-supply, season, medicine and exercise. By "site" I mean that
soldiers should not camp in pestilential areas near unhealthy marshes,
nor in arid plains and hills, lacking tree-cova, nor without tents in
summer. They should not move out too late in the day and fall sick
from sunstroke and marching-fatigue, but rather start a march before
dawn, reaching the destination in the heat of the day. They should not
in severe winter weather march by night through snow and ice, or
suffer from shortage of firewood or an inadequate supply of clothes.
For a soldier who is forced to be cold is not likely to be healthy or
fit for an expedition. Neither should the army use bad or marsh water,
for bad drinking-water, like poison, causes disease in the drinkers.
To be sure it requires constant vigilance on the part of officers and
tribunes and of the "count" who holds the senior command to see that
ordinary soldiers who fall sick from this cause may be nursed back to
health with suitable food and tended by the doctors' art. It is hard
for those who are fighting both a war and disease.
But military experts considered that daily exercises in arms were more
conducive to soldiers' health than doctors. So they wished that the
infantry be trained without cease, under cover when rainy or snowing,
in the exercise-field on the rest of the days. Similarly they gave
orders that cavalry should constantly train themselves and their
horses not only in the plains, but also over precipitous places and
courses made very difficult with gaping ditches, so that nothing
unfamiliar might meet them in the stress of battle. From this it is
appreciated how zealously an army should always be trained in the art
of war, since the habit of work may bring it both health in the camp,
and victory in the field.
If a multitude of soldiers stays too long in autumn or summer in the
same place, then drinking-water contaminated by pollution of the
water-supply and air tainted by the foul smell itself give rise to a
most deadly disease. This can only be prevented by frequent changes of
camp.
Following sections:
. How much attention should be devoted to the procurement and storage
of fodder and grain.
. Measures needed to ensure that soldiers do not m utiny.
. How many kinds of military signals there are.
. The degree of caution to be observed when an army moves in the
vicinity of the enemy.
. How to cross large rivers.
. How to lay out a camp.
. What and how many things are to be considered when judging whether
to engage the enemy in raids and ambushes or else in pitched battle.
. What to do if one has an army unaccustomed to fighting or newly
recruited.
. Precautions to be taken on the day of engaging in a general action.
. One should find out how soldiers are feeling before battle.
. How a suitable place is chosen for battle.
. How the line should be drawn up to render it invincible in battle.
. The square-footage system, or how much space in the line should be
left abreast between each man, and in depth between each rank.
. On deploying cavalry.
. On reserves, which are posted behind the line.
. In what position the commander-in-chief, the second- and
third-in-command should stand.
. Remedies to counter the strength and stratagems of the enemy in
battle.
. How many modes for engaging in a pitched battle there are, and how
the side that is inferior in numbers and strength may prevail.
. How to retreat from the enemy if the plan to fight is rejected.
. On camels and armoured cavalry.
. How scythed chariots and elephants may be resisted in battle.
. What to do, if part or if all of the army is routed.
. General rules of war.
--
Any deity worthy of a graven image can cobble up a working universe
complete with fake fossils in under a week - hey, if you're not
omnipotent, there's no real point in being a god. But to start with a
big ball of elementary particles and end up with the duckbill platypus
without constant twiddling requires a degree of subtlety and the ability
to Think Things Through: exactly the qualities I'm looking for when I'm
shopping for a Supreme Being.
- Lee DeRaud
Phil
>
Strider, all evidence shows that this fool does not have a mind so your
point is kinda irrelevent! :o)
Phil
Peace, Bread, Land
Strabo
"Jeffrey C. Dege" wrote:
>
> On 18 Sep 2000 03:35:23 GMT, Mbstorage <mbst...@aol.com> wrote:
> >Yeah, yeah, we all know the book, it giveth some a warm fuzzy, and in truth, is
> >just that...a warm fuzzy.
>
> Typical of Chinese literature - so vague and imprecise that it always
> seems to be applicable, while providing very little in the way of
> specific guidance.
>
> Roman literature of the period was far more precise and specific.
> And hence of far more use to those they were actually intended for.
> They express their meaning in a way that can't be misinterpreted as
> guidance for doing business over a golf game.
>
> From book three of "Epitoma Rei Militari", by Flavius Vegetius Renatus:
>
> . How the army's health is controlled.
<snipped>
"The Art of War" is not a manual of strategy or tactics. It
is about the art of war explained in the Oriental perspective
of human nature.
Find the "Epitoma Rei Militari" at:
http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/arma/contents/text/technica/veg1.htm
Jeffrey C. Dege
>
>
>"Jeffrey C. Dege" wrote:
>>
>> On 18 Sep 2000 03:35:23 GMT, Mbstorage <mbst...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >Yeah, yeah, we all know the book, it giveth some a warm fuzzy, and in truth, is
>> >just that...a warm fuzzy.
>>
>> Typical of Chinese literature - so vague and imprecise that it always
>> seems to be applicable, while providing very little in the way of
>> specific guidance.
>>
>> Roman literature of the period was far more precise and specific.
>> And hence of far more use to those they were actually intended for.
>> They express their meaning in a way that can't be misinterpreted as
>> guidance for doing business over a golf game.
>>
>> From book three of "Epitoma Rei Militari", by Flavius Vegetius Renatus:
>>
>> . How the army's health is controlled.
>
><snipped>
>
>"The Art of War" is not a manual of strategy or tactics. It
>is about the art of war explained in the Oriental perspective
>of human nature.
Exactly so. It's a collection of fuzzy aphorisms that are so vague as
to always seem to have meaning while being of no actual use whatsoever.
--
First twenty-one new features that somehow we must add in.
Then thirty-seven changes show up much to our chagrin.
And this thing's just inadequate, and that one's just plain wrong.
And by the way your schedule is about three months too long.
Ray Keller
"Strabo" <str...@flashmail.net> wrote in message
news:39C5BA97...@flashmail.net...
>
>
> "Jeffrey C. Dege" wrote:
> >
> > On 18 Sep 2000 03:35:23 GMT, Mbstorage <mbst...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >Yeah, yeah, we all know the book, it giveth some a warm fuzzy, and in
truth, is
> > >just that...a warm fuzzy.
> >
> > Typical of Chinese literature - so vague and imprecise that it always
> > seems to be applicable, while providing very little in the way of
> > specific guidance.
> >
> > Roman literature of the period was far more precise and specific.
> > And hence of far more use to those they were actually intended for.
> > They express their meaning in a way that can't be misinterpreted as
> > guidance for doing business over a golf game.
> >
> > From book three of "Epitoma Rei Militari", by Flavius Vegetius Renatus:
> >
> > . How the army's health is controlled.
>
> <snipped>
>
> "The Art of War" is not a manual of strategy or tactics. It
> is about the art of war explained in the Oriental perspective
> of human nature.
Sean
in Sov military college,along with Von Clausewitz on war,the previous
mentioned Roman treatsie. All of those books are mandatory reading in
Chinese officers academy. Are they in Westpoint,etc?Or are you more likely
to find some touchy feely fuzzy litature on political correctness in the
armed forces on the course agenda?
That old China man was right about one thing.
Know yourself and your enemy,and you will win all your battles.
Know only yourself and not your enemy,and you will win half your battles.
Know neither yourself or your enemy and you will be defeated always.
Do us Westerners know ourselves and the Chinese? Doubt it.
Sean
--
'They say that one learns from ones mistakes.iprefer to learn from the
mistakes of others'
Otto von Bismarck
One should never put on one's best trousers to go to battle for freedom and
truth'
Henrick Ibsen 1828-1906
Keep on rockin in the free world!
Perry Noid
> For those interested:
>
> SUN TZU ON THE ART OF WAR
> THE OLDEST MILITARY TREATISE IN THE WORLD
>
> http://www.fas.org/man/artofwar.htm
>
> A good, simple translation.
>
> Strider
The one who is using Ancient Art of War tatics on a social level on you
is usually the one pretending he thinks you are doing it to him :o/
Strider
outd...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <slrn8sb97h...@jdege.visi.com>,
> jd...@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege) wrote:
> <snipped>
> Outstanding!
> now where exactly do I find a translation of that one?
>
> PatrickT
> (Who prefers Musashi to Sun Tzu anyway!)
>
For your convenience, Patrick:
A Book of Five Rings
http://junfanjkd.com/bookof.htm
Strider
--
"Did you exchange a walk on part in a war for a lead role in a
cage?" - Pink Floyd
Visit my home page at:
http://www.usit.com/strider/homepage/enter.htm
AOL Instant Messenger Screen Name: Strider762
ICQ # 69826879
Member of B.A.S.T.A.R.D.S. - Bad Americans Standing Tall Among
Radically Dependent Sheeple
outd...@my-deja.com
jd...@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege) wrote:
<snipped>
Outstanding!
now where exactly do I find a translation of that one?
PatrickT
(Who prefers Musashi to Sun Tzu anyway!)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jeffrey C. Dege
>In article <slrn8sb97h...@jdege.visi.com>,
> jd...@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege) wrote:
><snipped>
>Outstanding!
>now where exactly do I find a translation of that one?
Stackpole books (the leading US publisher of military books), has a series
titled "Roots of Strategy". Book 1 includes Vegetius. There have been
dozens of translations, but Stackpole's is the only one I've seen in
print. (For the life of me, I don't know why Loeb doesn't include it
in their classical library.)
Roots of Strategy
Edited by Brig. Gen. T. R. Phillips
Published Stackpole Books
Volume 1, ISBN: 0-8117-2194-9
Volume 2, ISBN: 0-8117-2260-0
Volume 3, ISBN: 0-8117-3060-3
Price: $17/each or $45/set
A three-volume set containing texts of eleven definitive works on
military strategy, including the five greatest military classics of
all time. Sometimes dry, sometimes florid, sometimes clear and
concise, depending on which work is being read. Provides insight into
the development of military strategy throughout the ages. Although
the three volumes cover the basics of the contained texts, writers who
are further interested in strategy should consider reading separate
editions of some of the contained texts, such as various translations
and commented versions of Sun Tzu's Art of War and a more thorough and
commented Clausewitz's The Principles of War.
The three-volume set contains texts from: Sun Tzu's Art of War, the
oldest military text in existence; ca 500 B.C.; Vegetius' De Re
Militari, the most influential military treatise from Roman times;
Saxe's My Reveries Upon the Art of War, with deep insight into tactics
and leadership; The Instruction of Frederick The Great for his
Generals (1747), and the Military Maxims of Napoleon. Also includes
de Picq's Battle Studies, a very edited version of The Principles of
War by Clausewitz, Jomini's Art of War, von Leeb's Defense, von
Freytag-Loringhoven's The Power of Personality in War, and Erfurth's
Surprise.
They're in print. You can get them from Powells, Borders, Barnes&Noble,
Amazon, etc.
>PatrickT
>(Who prefers Musashi to Sun Tzu anyway!)
(So do I - but oddly enough, it's his paintings that really bowl me over ;)
--
.sig under construction
outd...@my-deja.com
> They're in print. You can get them from Powells, Borders,
Barnes&Noble,
> Amazon, etc.
Thanks!
>
>
> (So do I - but oddly enough, it's his paintings that really bowl me
over ;)
To parphrase the master said, "if you would master the sword, study
painting"
Patrick T.
outd...@my-deja.com
Strider <str...@usit.net> wrote:
> >
> For your convenience, Patrick:
>
> A Book of Five Rings
>
> http://junfanjkd.com/bookof.htm
>
> Strider
> --
Japanese Martial Arts Masters online. Ya gotta love the internet!
Thanks Strider,
Patrick T.
stu...@my-deja.com
pery...@oklahoma.net (Perry Noid) wrote:
> Strider <str...@usit.net> wrote:
>
> > For those interested:
> >
> > SUN TZU ON THE ART OF WAR
> > THE OLDEST MILITARY TREATISE IN THE WORLD
> >
> > http://www.fas.org/man/artofwar.htm
> >
> > A good, simple translation.
> >
> > Strider
> The one who is using Ancient Art of War tatics on a social level on
you
> is usually the one pretending he thinks you are doing it to him :o/
>
davidgj...@my-deja.com
messages are not directed at conflict.
In article <20000917233523...@ng-fb1.aol.com>,
--
The Big Bang signalled the end of the Universe
davidgj...@my-deja.com
>>>>>>>>>>Typical of Chinese literature - so vague and imprecise that
it always seems to be applicable, while providing very little in the
way of specific guidance.
It is indeed vague and imprecise if you read it as a war manual. It is
in fact very clear and very exacting otherwise.
Jeffrey C. Dege
>I might agree if I read it from a militaristic standpoint. But its
>messages are not directed at conflict.
Like most books of Oriental philosophy, its primary interest is in its
ability to draw out your own thoughts.
It's not a worthless book, but it's nothing like a technical manual.
--
The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be
regarded as a criminal offence.
-- Edsger W. Dijkstra, SIGPLAN Notices, Volume 17, Number 5
davidgj...@my-deja.com
One of Sun Tzu's important instructions was that leaders ought to be
able to make course corrections once they had begun to implement their
strategies. You can call this strategy or tactics or anything you like
but this sort of wisdom still has great value today.
In article <slrn8t8281...@jdege.visi.com>,
jd...@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege) wrote:
--
The Big Bang signalled the end of the Universe
Jeffrey C. Dege
>Sounds like your preference is for technical manuals.
No, I just think it's important to understand the difference.
The flights of imagination that can be inspired by Sun Tzu need grounding
- I'd hate to think what an officer who was so inspired might get his
troops into if he didn't have a solid NCO to knock some sense into him.
--
.sig under construction
davidgj...@my-deja.com
the processes and structure by which field command and control can work.
Theer are no "flights of imagination" except that Master Sun does
believe that violence is the act of a madman.
No, I just think it's important to understand the difference.
The flights of imagination that can be inspired by Sun Tzu need
grounding - I'd hate to think what an officer who was so inspired might
get his troops into if he didn't have a solid NCO to knock some sense
into him.
> >Sounds like your preference is for technical manuals.
>
> No, I just think it's important to understand the difference.
>
> The flights of imagination that can be inspired by Sun Tzu need
grounding
> - I'd hate to think what an officer who was so inspired might get his
> troops into if he didn't have a solid NCO to knock some sense into
him.
>
> --
> .sig under construction
>
--