How bulletproof is a log home?
Michael Hipp
residence and equip it to facilitate preparedness.
My question is, how bulletproof would a 8 - 12 inch well seasoned hardwood
log be? Would it stop the common rifle and handgun bullets? Would it
stop a .30-06 AP round?
Concrete is out of the question, since we have no wish to live in a
bunker. And after Waco, I have this dread that the BATF somewhere keeps a
list of anyone that uses more than x% concrete in their house :-(. I'm
just looking for something suitable to duck behind when the bad guys
wander by. Most of what I've seen of modern residential construction
wouldn't offer enough protection even to get off a quick call to 911.
Worrying that some n'er-do-well might try to burn me out is a whole nuther
problem.
Besides, the real fun starts in planning all the things that can be done
with a multi-thousand square-foot concrete basement (cue diabolical
laughter).
Michael Hipp
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but once gone, is very difficult to get back.
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I respect my employers enough to not attempt to speak for them.
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Micha...@Dow.com
Henry McDaniel
>One of my dreams is to build a log home on our land to be our long term
>residence and equip it to facilitate preparedness.
>My question is, how bulletproof would a 8 - 12 inch well seasoned hardwood
>log be? Would it stop the common rifle and handgun bullets? Would it
>stop a .30-06 AP round?
Well, Randy Weaver survived in his cabin (?) But it didn't sound like
the experience was a weekend at Disneyland.
I'd be worried about visability. Where to put the windows? Can't
have them too large either. Then again you don't want to have a place
looking like a fort. That just encourages *them* to start out using
tanks and nasty overkill stuff like that ;)
[...]
>Besides, the real fun starts in planning all the things that can be done
>with a multi-thousand square-foot concrete basement (cue diabolical
>laughter).
Just make sure you build it so if the cabin gets torched, you don't
drown in smoke. Building bomb-proof hidden air vents somewhere
doesn't sound easy.
There was a flick with Charles Bronson (sp?) in it once wher he
was hold-up in a log cabin and a posse had him surrounded. They
had him heavily out gunned and eventually just through dynamite
into the place, blowing it sky-high. But he'd gotten into a
cellar and had a nice buckshot surprise for them when they were kicking
through the embers looking for his body.
-McDaniel
Dave
> One of my dreams is to build a log home on our land to be our long term
> residence and equip it to facilitate preparedness.
>
> My question is, how bulletproof would a 8 - 12 inch well seasoned hardwood
> log be? Would it stop the common rifle and handgun bullets? Would it
> stop a .30-06 AP round?
>
> Concrete is out of the question, since we have no wish to live in a
> bunker.
My reference material is at home, but I don't think that 8-12" hardwood
will cut it vs. .30-06AP. Then there's always the APIT problem...
One terrific bullet stopper, perhaps better than concrete as I recall, is
sand. I don't know if that helps but there it is. (Water, if you could
figure out this one, would work pretty well too. Not to mention water is a
terrific barrier vs. some forms of radiation.)
I'll look up the specific thicknesses if anybody wants to know.
Dave
--
>As always, I speak only for myself, not my employer or anyone else.<
Thomas Woolman
Henry McDaniel <mcda...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>micha...@dow.com (Michael Hipp) writes:
>
>>One of my dreams is to build a log home on our land to be our long term
>>residence and equip it to facilitate preparedness.
>
>>My question is, how bulletproof would a 8 - 12 inch well seasoned hardwood
>>log be? Would it stop the common rifle and handgun bullets? Would it
>>stop a .30-06 AP round?
I doubt an 8 to 12 inch log would stop .30-06 AP, unless the shooter was
several hundred yards away. Personally, I'd be more concerned with .30-06
incindiary ammo then AP <g>.
^TW
W. Joseph Cooklin
It depends on the wood, commercial log homes are made from several
different woods, cedar and pine come to mind.
I have shot through a 6 inch commercial fence post at 40 yards with a
cheapo 12 ga slug, not certian what wood it was.
Might be worthwhile to test several woods, but what if the bullet hits the
chinking, huh ?
--
Joseph Cooklin
FULLER M
>micha...@dow.com (Michael Hipp) writes:
>
>>One of my dreams is to build a log home on our land to be our long term
>>residence and equip it to facilitate preparedness.
>
>>My question is, how bulletproof would a 8 - 12 inch well seasoned hardwood
>>log be? Would it stop the common rifle and handgun bullets? Would it
>>stop a .30-06 AP round?
>
>Well, Randy Weaver survived in his cabin (?) But it didn't sound like
>the experience was a weekend at Disneyland.
His cabin was more of a plywood and tarpaper deal than an actual log home.
>I'd be worried about visability. Where to put the windows? Can't
>have them too large either. Then again you don't want to have a place
>looking like a fort. That just encourages *them* to start out using
>tanks and nasty overkill stuff like that ;)
Given that flimsy construction didn't prevent "them" from using armor
against the Davidian's home, I wouldn't worry too much about appearances.
Besides, falling into a long-term siege with the government (or anyone
who can easily destroy your building from a distance) isn't a good idea
since the final outcome is pretty much determined at the outset.
IMO, the most you can really expect a fortified house to do is provide
protection from a band of lightly-armed raiders. The security measures to
take are essentially the same as for burglar-proofing your home (locks,
lights, alarms furry and otherwise, etc.), but with the added consideration
of conducting a gunfight in the yard.
Install reinforced shutters. These can either be hinged on the sides to
open on the outside, or hinged on the top to open from the inside like
cannon firing ports on wooden warships (I've actually seen this style
in log home magazines). The goal is not to make your windows bulletproof,
but rather to keep out hand grenades and invaders.
Add decorative holes to the shutters which could double as observation/
firing slits. Don't use them, of course. They're actually decoys to draw
the black hats' attention (and fire) from your hidden loopholes.
Outside shutters can also double as storm windows. Inside shutters, while
safer to operate, won't protect your glass.
>[...]
>>Besides, the real fun starts in planning all the things that can be done
>>with a multi-thousand square-foot concrete basement (cue diabolical
>>laughter).
>
>Just make sure you build it so if the cabin gets torched, you don't
>drown in smoke. Building bomb-proof hidden air vents somewhere
>doesn't sound easy.
If "they" are capable of torching your building it's probably time to
leave.
>There was a flick with Charles Bronson (sp?) in it once wher he
>was hold-up in a log cabin and a posse had him surrounded. They
>had him heavily out gunned and eventually just through dynamite
>into the place, blowing it sky-high. But he'd gotten into a
>cellar and had a nice buckshot surprise for them when they were kicking
>through the embers looking for his body.
Death Hunt. Cool film.
>-McDaniel
>
Speedy Mercer
>From: micha...@dow.com (Michael Hipp)
>Subject: How bulletproof is a log home?
>Date: 4 Jan 1995 12:13:21 GMT
>(snip-o-matic)...Most of what I've seen of modern residential construction
>wouldn't offer enough protection even to get off a quick call to 911.
Bricks... bricks are nice! (what do you mean "that's WAY too much mortor?")
Speedy Mercer (FFL)
WWW Home Page: http://info.latech.edu/~speedy/
"She sure is fine, my FN-49!"
Dave
j...@taligent.com (Dave) wrote:
> One terrific bullet stopper... is sand.
According to my source, 6" of loose sand between wood (boards, logs,
etc.) will stop single rounds of '06 AP.
Dave
JeffPMil
It depends on the size of the logs and the size of the bullets
A "fortified" building is only to deter brief encounters. It allows a
weaker opponet an advantage over a stronger opponent. (The history/reason
for castles)
None ever survives a determined seige.
Where is your water supply?
Where is your food supply?
The Davidians went 51 days but had food brought in.
As for fire proofing, a log cabin is somewhat hard to ignite as logs,
funny enough, don't just spontaneously ignite. They are really no more
dangerous than a frame house.
A log fort will deter roaming gangs from getting you. It will slow down
the ATF and FBI. It's a good defense against Apaches. :^)
Be seeing you,
Number 6
Gary Coffman
>One of my dreams is to build a log home on our land to be our long term
>residence and equip it to facilitate preparedness.
>
>My question is, how bulletproof would a 8 - 12 inch well seasoned hardwood
>log be? Would it stop the common rifle and handgun bullets? Would it
>stop a .30-06 AP round?
It wouldn't be very good. It certainly can't stop .30-06 AP, and probably
not plain old .308 FMJ either. That can penetrate a 22 inch diameter
live tree. More serious for log construction is that practically any
bullet will penetrate the chinking.
>Concrete is out of the question, since we have no wish to live in a
>bunker. And after Waco, I have this dread that the BATF somewhere keeps a
>list of anyone that uses more than x% concrete in their house :-(. I'm
>just looking for something suitable to duck behind when the bad guys
>wander by. Most of what I've seen of modern residential construction
>wouldn't offer enough protection even to get off a quick call to 911.
>
>Worrying that some n'er-do-well might try to burn me out is a whole nuther
>problem.
Steel reinforced concrete is an excellent barrier material, and pretty
cheap too. It needn't be ugly either. You can face it with stucco ala
Southwestern architecture, or use a log veneer motif. Concrete is, of
course, also fireproof which can get you a break on your homeowner's
insurance. I think it's an excellent building material. However, you
can also use an Earth sheltered design. 8 feet of dirt is an effective
backstop for most any small arms round. And the energy savings can
rapidly pay for the more extensive excavation work on site.
If you insist on conventional appearing construction, then the only
good alternative is to put an inner layer of half inch steel hardplate
in the walls.
Gary
--
Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary
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Hudson Luce
>In article <3ef73k$m...@nntp1.u.washington.edu> mcda...@u.washington.edu (Henry
>McDaniel) writes:
>>micha...@dow.com (Michael Hipp) writes:
>>
>>>One of my dreams is to build a log home on our land to be our long term
>>>residence and equip it to facilitate preparedness.
>>
>>>My question is, how bulletproof would a 8 - 12 inch well seasoned hardwood
>>>log be? Would it stop the common rifle and handgun bullets? Would it
>>>stop a .30-06 AP round?
>>
>>[...]
>>>Besides, the real fun starts in planning all the things that can be done
>>>with a multi-thousand square-foot concrete basement (cue diabolical
>>>laughter).
>>
Just thought I'd make a plug here for a couple of good books:
1. How to build an underground house. Malcolm Wells, $12
2. Underground Designs. Malcolm Wells $7
3. Underground Plans Book. Malcolm Wells $14
4. A Tiny Underground House. Malcolm Wells $10
All are available from Malcolm Wells, Underground Art Gallery,
673 Satucket Road,Brewster,MA 02631
These designs are all underground homes which look like something out
of theArchitectural Record. They are breathtakingly beautiful, not
some survivalist bunker sort of thing. Quite a few have actually been
built. They tend to use passive solar for heat, and are quite energy
efficient.
Alan Horowitz
>> Concrete is out of the question, since we have no wish to live in a
>> bunker.
If you want to make omelettes, you might have to break some eggs.
--
Alan Horowitz
al...@infi.net
Richard A. De Castro
The book URBAN COMBAT (listed in the books.list, and a reprint of the
military urban combat manual) lists the stopping abilities of various
contruction media, against various types of weapons, from 5.56 to (I think)
the 25mm chain gun round.
You might want to check it out. It's available from Delta Publications.
--
============================================================================
deca...@netcom.com Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really!
Rick N6RCX EMT-A ATP MA Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly......
Richard A. De Castro - As long as the Government pretends to protect me,
I'll pretend to feel safe - NOT!
-Don't Tread On Me!-
============================================================================
laazyr...@aol.com
We live in a 5600 sq.ft. log home made of 12in lodgepole pine. It will stop rifle, shotgun, and pistol rounds for a sustained period. We had extra materials and built a model for filming. It even takes 50 cal rounds sustained for 90 seconds but will fail if the rounds are grouped closely. You would realize this was happening and have time to get moving.
We are not crazy preppers or anything but being in LE makes you start thinking of your home this way if it were to hit the fan. We are great with local LE and rural so we actually threw a party and took them all through the house in case they ever have to clear the place. With these massive log homes, they present a real nightmare to clear with all the nooks and crannies present, high ceilings, lofts, open staircases, etc. To us, these are tactical advantages and hiding places during a break-in or home invasion that the bad guys wouldn't know about.
Ray Keller
<laazyr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c427f198-a749-4d51...@googlegroups.com...
Someone starts shooting at you with anything larger than a 223 you are dead
meat.
Read through the whole page, then come back and tell us how bulletproof your
home is.
remember....12 inches is the thickest part of the log.....I will bet the
walls are only 6 to 8 inches thick where the logs join....maybe less.
any modern hunting rifle will make your cabin a real bad place to be.
http://benandbawbsblog.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-762x51mm-nato-turning-cover-into.html
A still shot from the old US Army training film Infantry Weapons and their
Effects. This is the moment of impact of a 150-grain FMJ .30-06 ball round
hitting a bucket of water after penetrating an oak tree approximately 12
inches thick. Range: 100 yards. Performance of the 7.62 M80 ball is almost
equivalent.
Two of the targets were deliberately placed so that I would have to shoot
through cover to hit them. One went behind some fairly serious cover; a
mature Douglas fir with a trunk about 18 inches thick near the butt end had
fallen over in a recent wind storm and I put the target fully behind it
except for the head and shoulders. Engaging the target from 300 meters with
an FAL shooting 145-grain Port FMJ, all rounds that hit the tree trunk
penetrated fully with plenty of power left over to penetrate the target. One
round blew out a sizeable chunk of wood that left a hole about two inches by
inch in size through the Charging Commie as well.
This wind-downed Doug fir looks like good cover, just over a foot and a half
thick. This particular Figure 11 target was printed to be 18 inches across
the shoulders for reference. At 300 meters, three 7.62x51mm FMJ rounds hit
the log and all three fully penetrated it and the target.
The first picture didn't turn out, so this was a second Fig 11 perforated
while behind the same cover with the same ammunition. Here the "exit wounds"
in the tree are readily apparent.
A second Figure 11 was placed behind a large, flat rock that did not actually
stand up high enough to provide true cover. More importantly, about 15 meters
in front of the target was a sizeable standing Doug fir. From my firing
position 300 meters away, the Figure 11 could not be seen except for a few
patches of white color through the green boughs of the tree. Once more, the
7.62x51mm rounds made it through the boughs and limbs to hit the target. Two
rounds hit low, striking the sloped surface of the flat rock in front of the
target, and these produced a half a dozen long thin rock chips which
themselves had enough velocity to slice through the cardboard. Even if these
would not have been lethal against a human target, they no doubt would have
made for a helluva distraction involving pain and blood flow.
Target #2 taken from 25 yards. The actual firing position was further to the
left and required shooting directly through the tree boughs at what little
was visible of the target.
Red circles indicate bullet strikes while blue circles indicate
rock chip "shrapnel wounds" from two low shots hitting the stone in front of
the target (indicated by blue arrows).
I actually considered the ability to shoot through fairly thick
foliage the more important performance. British small arms expert Tony
Williams explained why this is an important consideration: "Due to its small
size, a 5.56 mm bullet can also be more easily deflected in flight on its way
to a target. Thick vegetation, wooden posts and even soldiers' web equipment
have all caused 5.56 mm rounds to ricochet or bounce-off harmlessly,
depending on the angle of attack. This tendency increases with distance and
is again attributable to the rapid loss of energy at longer ranges."
Just for shits and giggles, I tried a "Rhodesian Cover Shoot" on
the way home. A wolfy lodgepole pine with a bole roughly a foot thick
alongside the abandoned logging road I was hiking became cover for a skinny
Charging Commie. At an "ambush range" of less than 15 meters, I simply gave
the tree trunk a double-tap from the FAL square in the middle of the trunk.
The results in the photo pretty much speak for themselves.
Fig 11 Charging Commie before; he hides behind this lodgepole pine for cover.
Figure 11 Charging Commie after a 7.62x51mm ball double-tap to the opposite
side of the tree trunk.
This penetration is something easily overlooked. No real hunter would ever
shoot at game through foliage. In training, military MILES lasers,
paintballs, Airsoft pellets and even Simmunition cannot support this type of
shooting. In fact, I recall an NCO I knew whose solution to any tactical
problem was, "Pop smoke, because MILES can't shoot through smoke."
Penetration is something you have to just keep in the back of your mind, and
an occasional experiment like mine serves as a good reminder. Either that or
you can tie a string around your finger.
Frank
I'd say one Molotov cocktail ;)
Gunner Asch
Bravo!!
Gunner
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raykeller
<drump...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8d74f7ed-9a70-4f52...@googlegroups.com...
30-06 wil go through 1.4 inch of steel with standard hunting loads if it
goes between the wood billets
Stack so there are no airspaces in the wood and use a row of sandbags if you
want to make it bullet resistant
12 inches of sand will stop most bullets
Frank
combination of steel and wood.
raykeller
"Frank" <fr...@frank.net> wrote in message
news:pkmstv$e4s$1...@dont-email.me...
Frank
penetrate the steel. You stop a ballistic threat by spreading the
energy into whatever the barrier is. The more stuff it hits, the more
it is absorbed. There are more elaborate and expensive materials to do
what the op wants but you cannot make anything completely threat proof
just less likely to let the threat in. Not sure a standard 30-06
hunting load would penetrate the steel as these rounds mushroom and
spread the energy. For example you can penetrate a Kevlar vest with an
ice pick but stop a .357 mag with the same vest. I saw a demo once on
TV where you could penetrate a sand bag with a broad head arrow but the
bag stopped a 30-06 hunting round.
Gunner Asch
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No more pathetic creature has ever walked the earth. But...he is locked into a mental hospital for the safety of the public.
Which is a very good thing."
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