U.S. intercepting Qaeda messages hinting at new attack

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Pavlos Xorofas

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May 18, 2002, 4:06:39 PM5/18/02
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'Captain' Kirk DeHaan

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May 18, 2002, 4:43:43 PM5/18/02
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On Sat, 18 May 2002 20:06:39 GMT, Pavlos Xorofas
<pavlos...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/19/national/19THRE.html

And I have to create a login just to read a damn article. Bullshit!


Kirk

www.stormyacres.com

Knisa

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May 18, 2002, 5:08:01 PM5/18/02
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use the username: slashdotaccount and the password: slashdotaccount.

Here's the article for those who don't want to bother...

WASHINGTON, May 18 - American intelligence agencies have intercepted a vague
yet troubling series of communications among Al Qaeda operatives over the
last few months indicating that the terrorist organization is trying to
carry out an operation as big as or bigger than the Sept. 11 attacks,
according to intelligence and law enforcement officials.
But just as last summer's threats left counterterrorism analysts guessing
about Al Qaeda's intentions, and believing that the attack might be carried
out overseas, the new interceptions are so general that they have left
President Bush and his counterterrorism team in the dark about the time,
place or method of what some officials refer to as a second-wave attack. As
a result, the government is essentially limited to taking broad defensive
measures.

"It's again not specific - not specific as to time, not specific as to
place," one senior administration official said.

The officials compared the intercepted messages, which they described as
cryptic and ambiguous, with the pattern of those picked up last spring and
early summer, when Qaeda operatives were also overheard talking about a big
operation. Those signals were among the evidence that intelligence agencies
presented to President Bush in August about the possibility of an imminent
attack against the United States.

The senior official said Friday that the amount of intelligence relating to
another possible attack, in Europe, the Arabian Peninsula or the United
States, had increased in the last month. Some of it comes from interviews
with fighters captured in Afghanistan.

But despite the disruption of Al Qaeda's operations around the world since
Sept. 11, and despite major spending increases and shifts of resources to
counterterrorism operations, American officials say they have not been able
to fully piece together the clues about Al Qaeda's plans.

"There's just a lot of chatter in the system again," the official said. "We
are actively pursuing it and trying to see what's going on here."

The government's frustration underscores the problem in fighting an
unconventional foe like Al Qaeda.

Interviews with law enforcement and intelligence officials suggest that in
the eight months since Sept. 11 the government has made only limited
progress in its ability to predict Al Qaeda's next move, and that many
proposed improvements in counterterrorism operations have yet to be put into
effect.

This is despite considerable advantages that the United States lacked a year
ago. The war in Afghanistan has provided a wealth of new information about
Al Qaeda's structure and organization, for example.

In addition, the United States is also interrogating captured Qaeda fighters
about the organization's plans. Officials say that debriefings of detainees
have in some instances provided general warnings of another major attack
that dovetail with the threats picked up in the intercepted communication
traffic.

Facing intense criticism in recent days over disclosures that a series of
possible clues about Al Qaeda's plans fell through the cracks in the months
leading up to the Sept. 11 attacks, officials say that some significant
changes have been made in the way threat information is studied and
circulated within the upper reaches of the Bush administration.

For the first time, the C.I.A. and F.B.I. now compare notes on all terrorist
threat information that comes in each day, filtering the intelligence
through what they call an analytical "matrix" to determine which threats are
the most credible and deserve the most attention. Their daily threat report
is distributed to senior policy makers, including the White House director
of homeland security, Tom Ridge. It provides a structure for debates among
senior officials about whether to issue public threat warnings.

President Bush also now receives daily briefings from both the F.B.I. and
the C.I.A. George J. Tenet, the director of central intelligence, and Robert
S. Mueller III, the F.B.I. director, are frequently present during those
White House sessions. That way, each agency is able to hear the other's
latest advice to the president. Before Sept. 11, he received a daily
briefing only from the C.I.A.

Although officials say some potential attacks have been foiled, that has
been largely credited to the arrest of terrorist operatives overseas by
foreign governments rather than to intelligence gleaned from intercepted
communications.

United States intelligence officials said that they began to intercept
communications among Qaeda operatives discussing a second major attack in
October, and that they have detected recurring talk among them about another
attack ever since. Some of the intercepted communications have included
frightening references to attacks that the Qaeda operatives say would cause
vast numbers of American casualties.

The intercepted communications do not point to any detailed plans for an
attack, and even the messages mentioning mass casualties do not refer
specifically to the use of weapons of mass destruction like chemical,
biological or nuclear devices.

Still, American officials say they believe the intercepts represent some of
the most credible intelligence they have received since Sept. 11 about Al
Qaeda's intentions. They have provided a troubling undercurrent for the Bush
administration as it tries to sort through the hundreds of other terrorist
threat warnings it has received over the past few months.

The pattern of intercepted communications that began last October has helped
prompt at least five public threat alerts issued by the F.B.I. since last
fall.

By contrast, federal law enforcement and intelligence officials say they
have been skeptical of many of the far more specific threats they have
received from individual informants over the past few months. One of the
problems now facing American counterterrorism experts is that they say
communications intercepts, while vaguely worded, are often highly credible
threat warnings, while the very detailed and specific threats passed on by
individual informants are often far less reliable.

Individual informants who approach American investigators in the United
States or overseas often know what kind of story will get the biggest
reaction. They also often come forward because of hidden motives, perhaps
hoping for money or entrance into the United States. The C.I.A. routinely
gives its informants polygraph tests in an effort to validate their stories.

But officials say that in some cases they have been forced to take tales
told by informants more seriously than they otherwise might, at least in
part because officials suspect from the intercepted communications that Al
Qaeda is planning something big.

In recent months, officials have issued threat alerts regarding nuclear
plants, financial institutions and even specific structures like the Seattle
Space Needle and the Golden Gate Bridge, even as some counterterrorism
experts privately regarded those threats as not based on solid intelligence.

Some officials say the government's new color-coded threat alert system is
less useful than the system it replaced, because it is subject to political
influences from appointees who are fearful of being criticized if they fail
to pass on every possible threat, no matter how remote.

Yet even as the less credible threats have been widely publicized, the more
worrisome and credible undercurrent of intercepted communications has not
been made public.

In hindsight, analysts now view the pattern of intercepted communications
they saw last May, June and July as a sign of the impending attacks. Those
intercepts, coming after embassy bombings in Africa and the suicidal bombing
of a Navy ship in an Arabian port, were sometimes alarming.

Their references to mass attacks against American interests prompted a
series of public alerts against possible terrorist attacks last summer,
including one concerning a possible strike over the Fourth of July holiday.
Officials said that they never had any evidence that an attack would occur
inside the United States, and instead focused most of their attention on
possible strikes against American facilities in the Middle East, Europe or
Asia.

After the summer holiday passed quietly without any attacks, American
analysts were relieved, but still believed that an attack might be coming.
However, they lacked any further details of where or when the strike might
come, and some officials began to think that the immediate danger might have
passed. Now that analysts are seeing a similar pattern of communications
intercepts, they say they are determined to avoid a repeat of that mistake.

Steve
--
"... free speech gives a man the right to talk about the
'psychology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen."
--RAH
"'Captain' Kirk DeHaan" <captkirk...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:37fdeuk69e4gob5a2...@4ax.com...

Sig Omigo

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May 18, 2002, 5:43:31 PM5/18/02
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News plant, to supossedly "mimic" that types of "warnings" the FBI
says it was receving about "vague threats".

This is so the executive branch can point to this and say:

"See, this is the kind of warning we were getting, and what
were we supposed to do, huh?"

Fact is, the executive branch had insiders that knew the date,
the method, the hijackers, the time and the targets, months
in advance of 9-11-01.


On Sat, 18 May 2002 21:08:01 GMT, "Knisa" <vtone...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Benjamin Liu

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May 18, 2002, 10:36:24 PM5/18/02
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Sig Omigo <SigO...@culture.net> wrote in message news:<sjideuojugtmdcoua...@4ax.com>...

>
> Fact is, the executive branch had insiders that knew the date,
> the method, the hijackers, the time and the targets, months
> in advance of 9-11-01.

If they did, how would you know this? Do you have some sort of inside info?

Brown Thumb

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May 18, 2002, 11:54:53 PM5/18/02
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On Sat, 18 May 2002 21:08:01 GMT, "Knisa" <vtone...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

When you put this together with the Mexican truck incident, plus some
of the earlier, more-publicized confessions of people before anybody
got to Cuba, plus the Italian taped conversation, it gets worrisome.


>"There's just a lot of chatter in the system again," the official said. "We
>are actively pursuing it and trying to see what's going on here."

------------------------------------------------
Liberal in favor of the Second Amendment

Sid

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May 19, 2002, 1:05:16 AM5/19/02
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Yes, and I have life insurance.

Sid

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May 19, 2002, 1:15:47 AM5/19/02
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On Sat, 18 May 2002 21:50:30 GMT, spam...@1stconnect.com (Winston
Smith) wrote:

>On Sat, 18 May 2002 14:43:31 -0700, Sig Omigo <SigO...@culture.net> wrote:
>
>>Fact is, the executive branch had insiders that knew the date,
>>the method, the hijackers, the time and the targets, months
>>in advance of 9-11-01.
>

>References to support this "fact" please.

There are many references in the public record. I won't give any
references I know of otherwise, as I would likely get a visit by the
FBI if I'm lucky, at worse end up dead.

There is a huge amount of detail getting out now about what was
known. Much of it coming from pissed off European intelligence
agencies who still haven't forgotten TWA flight 800, and use of
system wide wiretaps and blackmail from using Echelon.

The flight school in Florida, for example, that many of the
hijackers trained at is a CIA front company from way back,
and they knew the trainees were planning an attack.

There were two Israelis, in the US illegally, who drove a semi
across the border from Canada to Washington. The truck was
carrying large traces of Semtex and TNT, dogs picked up on
it.

They were held, then immediatley released without explanation
but said it was because of "national security".

So where is the Semtex? Is it going to be "found" in some
apartment buldings in the US soon when raids are conducted
on "anonymous tips" ?

Sound familiar?

The fun hasn't even started yet.

>
>And they did nothing, thereby opening themselves to criticisms about being
>asleep at the switch because ......... ?
>
>WS in m.s
>http://members.1stconnect.com/anozira updated 03-03-02
>

shaquille

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May 19, 2002, 3:47:54 AM5/19/02
to
Sid Omigo, otherwise known as Sidi Amin, once again finds himself in the throes
of tertiary syphilis. Bouts of paranoia punctuated by all-encompassing
delusions of grandeur render Sidi completely incapable of distinguishing day
from night, right from wrong, reality from . . . you know, the other stuff.

Omigo@culture.net Sid Omigo

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May 19, 2002, 3:56:00 AM5/19/02
to
My files held by FBI, CIA, NIS, NSA were well over 200 pages, at least
what I coud obtain using the FOIA. Have you ever requested yours?

You attempt at humilation is a bit weak.

On Sun, 19 May 2002 06:37:02 GMT, Gunner <gun...@lightspeed.net>
wrote:

>Sid Om...@culture.net (Sid Omigo) wrote:
>
>>>>Fact is, the executive branch had insiders that knew the date,
>>>>the method, the hijackers, the time and the targets, months
>>>>in advance of 9-11-01.
>>>
>>>References to support this "fact" please.
>>
>>There are many references in the public record. I won't give any
>>references I know of otherwise, as I would likely get a visit by the
>>FBI if I'm lucky, at worse end up dead.
>

>Better look out your window Zit, there is already a black helicopter
>hovering over your house, reading your key strokes by emp detection,
>and sucking your information from your brain. Hope you have your foil
>beanie on securely.
>
>Gunner
>
>
>
>----
>"Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by
>legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being
>stupid. But stupidity is the only universal crime; the sentence is
>death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically
>and without pity."
>
>Woodrow Wilson Smith aka Lazarus Long
>(Robert A. Heinlein, Excerpts from the Notebooks of Lazarus Long)

Omigo@culture.net Sid Omigo

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May 19, 2002, 1:05:20 PM5/19/02
to
The flurry of trading in put options on American airlines, United
airlines and on companies who were based inside of the WTC.
The press has not widely reported, though it is true that the
"excessive" option activitiy ran close to $60 billion in
volume.

Warnings from Russias CSS (ex KGB) were sent directly to Bush
in July 2001 stating that they had sufficient intelligence to
indicate that Al Qaeda was about to hijack a number of planes
for use as suicide missiles against "highly visible targets" in
New York and DC. These warnings were dismissed.

Mossad told US CIA in first week of September that an
attack on WTC using hijacked airliners was immiment.
This was serious enough to cause spur the airlines to issue
warnings to it's employees, but US government chose
not to warn American people.

Bush had received a CIA briefing on August 6, five weeks before the
attack on the World Trade Center, which suggested that an airplane
hijacking by terrorists linked to Osama bin Laden was imminent.

An FBU report from the Phoenix, Arizona office datedd July 10,
focused attention on suspicions that Al Qaeda operatives were using US
flight schools to gain expertise required to hijack airplanes. The
July 10 memo urged a nationwide screening of flight schools and cited
possible links to Osama bin Laden.

The Minneapolis FBI office reported the detention of Zaccarias
Moussaoui, the French-Moroccan immigrant who wanted to learn how to
fly a Boeing 747, but not take off or land. One email from a
described Moussaoui as someone who might fly a jumbo jet into the
World Trade Center.

Both reports were ignored by FBI headquarters.

There's a US Navy NIS officer in a jail in Canada who is being
held on a murder charge, alleged killing of Russian agent.
He received details of the pending Al Qaeda attack months
prior and relayed the information to Canadian authorities, who
passed it to US govenment. US government claims the
Navy Officer is lying, etc, etc. that he was thrown out of the
Navy years before as a recruit due to "incompetence".

But same officer gave a nuber of key details of the attack
in advance, and had a listed phone number at the pentagon with
his voice on recorded message announcing "this is Lieutenant ..."

A number of FBI agents had received warnings of use of
airliners as weapons against highly visible targets in NY
and DC via their Mob connections in the weeks and
days prior. Mayor of San Francisco Willy Brown received
a phone call giving him a direct warning NOT to fly that
week from a 'friend' in the Mob. This was reported in
the San Francisco Chronicle.

Numerous reports were given to police and FBI by civilians in the
weeks prior to Sept. 11 that were hearing rumours that an attack by
airliners was imminent on the WTC. These came from average people in
the Islamic community. Nothing appear to have been done to followup
on these.

There were several reports sent to the US CIA by Eqyptian govenment's
intelligence agency that an attack was imminent, in the days prior to
Sept 11.

Members of the Northern Alliance, including Ahmed Shah Massoud himself
tried to get the US to listen to their warnings that the Al Qaeda was
planning a massive terrorist action against New York and DC, in the
days leading up to Sept 11. These warnings were ignored, even after
Massoud was assassinated by the Al Qaeda on Sept 9, 2001.

the list goes on


On Sat, 18 May 2002 21:50:30 GMT, spam...@1stconnect.com (Winston
Smith) wrote:

>On Sat, 18 May 2002 14:43:31 -0700, Sig Omigo <SigO...@culture.net> wrote:
>

>>Fact is, the executive branch had insiders that knew the date,
>>the method, the hijackers, the time and the targets, months
>>in advance of 9-11-01.
>

>References to support this "fact" please.
>

Omigo@culture.net Sid Omigo

unread,
May 19, 2002, 1:39:41 PM5/19/02
to
Cheap way to discredit someone is to question their "sanity"

Most of my records are related to my having worked with your
NSA and CIA.

I question the mental health of the citizens of your country,
the most lied-to people on the planet.

By the way, most of my work was inside the news networks, writing
articles to reflect "their view", keeping an eye on journalists, the
talking-heads, and interactions with the media and "newsworthy"
characers so the information got passed along to 'interested parties.

This was primarily in the overseas branches, mostly CBS which is the
CIA's favorite. It was ABC then for awhile then moved back to CBS. NPR
is totally under CIA control. All the networks tow the line, or face
severe measures.

You have no idea how little of the truth makes it's way into your news
media, and how great an impact the lies have on your way of thinking.


On Sun, 19 May 2002 09:45:59 GMT, Gunner <gun...@lightspeed.net>
wrote:

>Sid Omigo <Sid Om...@culture.net> wrote:
>
>>My files held by FBI, CIA, NIS, NSA were well over 200 pages, at least
>>what I coud obtain using the FOIA. Have you ever requested yours?
>

>Hummm makes one wonder how many of those pages were psych diagnosis
>studies.
>
>In fact, yes, I have gotten mine. Interesting reading. Though..a bunch
>of my stuff was classified, I did get stuff via back channels.

>>
>>You attempt at humilation is a bit weak.
>>

>I wasn't trying to humiliate you Zit, your own posts do that well
>enough, for me not try to make the effort.
>
>Gunner


>
>>On Sun, 19 May 2002 06:37:02 GMT, Gunner <gun...@lightspeed.net>
>>wrote:
>
>
>

Bob Brock

unread,
May 19, 2002, 1:48:59 PM5/19/02
to
On Sun, 19 May 2002 10:39:41 -0700, Sid Omigo <Sid Om...@culture.net>
wrote:

>Cheap way to discredit someone is to question their "sanity"

It's not as cheap as stating "facts" with no proof. However, I see
that you do both.


>
>Most of my records are related to my having worked with your
>NSA and CIA.

Janitorial job?


>
>I question the mental health of the citizens of your country,
>the most lied-to people on the planet.

See, it doesn't bother you so much to question someone's sanity after
all. Just another lie.


>
>By the way, most of my work was inside the news networks, writing
>articles to reflect "their view", keeping an eye on journalists, the
>talking-heads, and interactions with the media and "newsworthy"
>characers so the information got passed along to 'interested parties.
>
>This was primarily in the overseas branches, mostly CBS which is the
>CIA's favorite. It was ABC then for awhile then moved back to CBS. NPR
>is totally under CIA control. All the networks tow the line, or face
>severe measures.

More "facts" without proof. You aren't even a good liar.


>
>You have no idea how little of the truth makes it's way into your news
>media, and how great an impact the lies have on your way of thinking.

You wouldn't recognize the "truth" if it smacked you up beside the
head with a baseball bat. When you get a real name and a verifiable,
or at least believable, background; perhaps you will be worth reading.
However, since you have absolutely no substance and poorly thought out
lies, you aren't worth reading.

PLONK

Bob Brock

unread,
May 19, 2002, 1:50:36 PM5/19/02
to
On Sun, 19 May 2002 10:05:20 -0700, Sid Omigo <Sid Om...@culture.net>
wrote:

>The flurry of trading in put options on American airlines, United


>airlines and on companies who were based inside of the WTC.
>The press has not widely reported, though it is true that the
>"excessive" option activitiy ran close to $60 billion in
>volume.

One last thing before I put you in the trash bin, you wouldn't happen
to know Whitewolf would you? You and he sure do sound a lot alike.

Omigo@culture.net Sid Omigo

unread,
May 19, 2002, 2:18:06 PM5/19/02
to
I can understand why you Americans become so uncomfortable
when anyone points out how unfree and how lied-to you reallly
are.

I worked with your government many years overseas helping to
plant the stories, spread the lies, and plug the leaks.

Now the chicken has come home to roost, and you will not like
what I say. You can call it lies, make threats and get upset.
But it will not change the fact that a number of foreign
intelligence agencies, including Mossad, French CIA,
Russian CSS and Egyptian Army Intelligence gave your
President all the clues needed to connect the dots
to know exactly who was going to do what, when and how.

Ask yourself why he (ie, his Secret Intelligence agencies) ignored
the warnings? What could possibly be the motive for wanting
an attack such as what happened on 9-11 to occur? What
would be the motive for such a national level crime?

You American's may already suspect you have been lied to and
manipulated by your own government for decades, manipulated
by your goverment's cowed public servants, the cowed media,
and those who "got the message" when other spoke out and
were killed by thugs in your FBI. Maybe you already suspect
or even know this.

But why are you so afraid to look deeper to find the truth,
the real truth? What are you so afraid you mind find out?

Is it perhaps the deep rooted fear, that you may find
that your freedoms are at best tenuous, or at worst
no better than the Constiution of the USSR, one of
the best written Constitutions in history, and the
most ignored.

Are you afraid you might finally realize that you are living in a
facist police state?, something that most of the world
has realized since 1963 when your Presidents brains were
blown out from three snipers in military triangulated fire,
in an open car in broad daylight. We outside your
country watched your insiders and your government come
up with the "lone nut" story and quickly buried the facts
inside the neat covers of your "Warren Commsion".

We also noticed the witnesses dying off like flies afterwards.

We have known you live in a police state for many years.

Does that fact bother you? Does it make you wonder how
you've been so completely and so easily duped?

Omigo@culture.net Sid Omigo

unread,
May 19, 2002, 2:18:43 PM5/19/02
to
Why are you so afraid?


On Sun, 19 May 2002 13:50:36 -0400, Bob Brock <bbr...@i-america.net>
wrote:

seb...@thegrid.net

unread,
May 19, 2002, 2:29:42 PM5/19/02
to

Good luck plonking him. I've used him for my practice plonking and the
bastard keeps coming back with a new nom de computer. I've got him
under 3 or 4 plonk names now. Sort of like a nasty case of head lice -
really difficult to get rid of.
Sue

Bob Brock

unread,
May 19, 2002, 2:43:22 PM5/19/02
to

If plonking doesn't work, I'll just do it manually and not read his
posts. I have better things to do than to read his inane drivel. If
he were a good liar, he could be entertaining, but he's not.

shaquille

unread,
May 19, 2002, 3:43:44 PM5/19/02
to
Hint: to plonk him, you've got to plonk his domain, culture.net. Don't worry,
you won't inadvertently kill-file anyone else -- the domain originates from
Austria and is unlikely to be used by anyone else on this NG.

Registrant:
Mark, Helmut (HUDPEMIOHD)
Untere Donaustrasse 27/19
Vienna, Vienna
AT

Domain Name: CULTURE.NET

Administrative Contact:
MARK, HELMUT (HMM280) ma...@thing.at
MARK,HELMUT
untere donau str. 27/19
1020 VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1020
AT
+43 1 2121696 123 123 1234
Technical Contact:
Pfeiffer, Rene (CWOAFCZUXI) hostm...@LUCHS.AT
Ewaldgasse 4/3/60
Vienna
A-1110
AT
+43-676-5626390

Record expires on 07-Nov-2002.
Record created on 10-Apr-2002.
Database last updated on 19-May-2002 07:39:55 EDT.

Domain servers in listed order:

GILEAN.LUCHS.AT 62.116.64.105
AKISTE.AKIS.AT 195.230.39.2

Brown Thumb

unread,
May 19, 2002, 3:44:21 PM5/19/02
to
On Sun, 19 May 2002 13:50:36 -0400, Bob Brock <bbr...@i-america.net>
wrote:

>

Actually, I remember this one from the news at the time.

I suspect all the things he lists are true -- the problem is, millions
of other tips were probably coming in at the same time, so we're
looking at 20-20 hindsight here.

I would like to see some good AI programs working to spot
such things, though. Some of that kind of AI stuff isn't that hard
to program -- even Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing is capable of
spotting a southpaw -- you could have a learning algorith, and start
it a few years back, then let it know which alerts turned out true.

It would NEVER replace humans, but it could augment the hell
out of us. Maybe it would even notice that Joe Schmoe in
Kansas and Jane Doe in Podunk have a tendency to a higher
degree of accuracy in their memos, and so start giving them more
weight. (Some people are better at intuiting from data than others,
and that, in itself, is data.)

Ray Keller

unread,
May 19, 2002, 4:13:52 PM5/19/02
to

<seb...@thegrid.net> wrote in message news:3CE7F045...@thegrid.net...

>
>
> Bob Brock wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002 10:39:41 -0700, Sid Omigo <Sid Om...@culture.net>
> > wrote:
> >
snip

> > PLONK
>
> Good luck plonking him. I've used him for my practice plonking and the
> bastard keeps coming back with a new nom de computer. I've got him
> under 3 or 4 plonk names now. Sort of like a nasty case of head lice -
> really difficult to get rid of.
> Sue

Put "@culture.net in your blocked senders list
It will block anyone that posts from that domain and since he is the
onlyone posting here from that domain...


seb...@thegrid.net

unread,
May 19, 2002, 5:08:08 PM5/19/02
to

Thanks for the advice. I'm pretty new to this plonking business.
Sue

Omigo@culture.net Sid Omigo

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May 19, 2002, 5:12:19 PM5/19/02
to
On Sun, 19 May 2002 14:43:22 -0400, Bob Brock <bbr...@i-america.net>
wrote:

Not a good liar at all. No need to be.

Omigo@culture.net Sid Omigo

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May 19, 2002, 5:13:29 PM5/19/02
to
Tyring to give you all some time. Use it.


On Sun, 19 May 2002 11:18:43 -0700, Sid Omigo <Sid Om...@culture.net>

Omigo@culture.net Sid Omigo

unread,
May 19, 2002, 5:18:22 PM5/19/02
to
The problem isn't technology. The NSA/FBI/CIA has to WANT to use it.

Where has the $100 billion allocated to countering terrorism since
1995 gone?

One good hack in the FBI spotted the patterns, connected the
dots and formally warned the President what was coming in the
weeks prior to the Black Tuesday attack?

What happened to him? He was pressured to resign from that position,
and was assigned to duty in the WTC FBI office , and his starting date
in that new job was September 11, 2001.

His name?

John O'Neill, Deputy Director of the FBI, died September 11, 2001.

Bob Brock

unread,
May 19, 2002, 5:22:16 PM5/19/02
to
On 19 May 2002 19:43:44 GMT, gul...@aol.comspamdunk (shaquille)
wrote:

>Hint: to plonk him, you've got to plonk his domain, culture.net. Don't worry,
>you won't inadvertently kill-file anyone else -- the domain originates from
>Austria and is unlikely to be used by anyone else on this NG.

Thanks. I did it both ways, so mabey I'll be rid of him for awhile at
least.

Richard Lewis

unread,
May 19, 2002, 6:16:25 PM5/19/02
to
Gunner <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:

>Better look out your window Zit, there is already a black helicopter
>hovering over your house, reading your key strokes by emp detection,
>and sucking your information from your brain. Hope you have your foil
>beanie on securely.

>Gunner

Damn you, Gunner! That was my line! lol

ral

shaquille

unread,
May 19, 2002, 7:37:54 PM5/19/02
to
Warning: you'll still have to read Sidi Amin's posts if someone highlights and
responds to them. But that's where a little bit of selective amnesia comes in
handy.

Offbreed

unread,
May 19, 2002, 7:50:25 PM5/19/02
to
Sid Omigo <Sid Om...@culture.net> wrote in message news:<ugmeeuo18r0os77ck...@4ax.com>...

> My files held by FBI, CIA, NIS, NSA were well over 200 pages, at least
> what I coud obtain using the FOIA. Have you ever requested yours?

You got a copy of your file from NSA?

How?

Opus Dei

unread,
May 19, 2002, 7:01:52 PM5/19/02
to
On Sun, 19 May 2002 05:15:47 GMT, Sid Om...@culture.net (Sid Omigo)
wrote:

>There were two Israelis, in the US illegally, who drove a semi


>across the border from Canada to Washington. The truck was
>carrying large traces of Semtex and TNT, dogs picked up on
>it.

News reports indicated a small Budget rent-a-truck, with reagent tests
showing semetx on the gearshift and inside the cargo area.

Was all over the news in WA state.. happened near Whitby Island, not
the border.

Strabo

unread,
May 20, 2002, 1:28:42 AM5/20/02
to

Sid Omigo wrote:
>
> I can understand why you Americans become so uncomfortable
> when anyone points out how unfree and how lied-to you reallly
> are.
>
> I worked with your government many years overseas helping to
> plant the stories, spread the lies, and plug the leaks.
>
> Now the chicken has come home to roost, and you will not like
> what I say. You can call it lies, make threats and get upset.
> But it will not change the fact that a number of foreign
> intelligence agencies, including Mossad, French CIA,
> Russian CSS and Egyptian Army Intelligence gave your
> President all the clues needed to connect the dots
> to know exactly who was going to do what, when and how.
>
> Ask yourself why he (ie, his Secret Intelligence agencies) ignored
> the warnings? What could possibly be the motive for wanting
> an attack such as what happened on 9-11 to occur? What
> would be the motive for such a national level crime?

Well, don't keep us in suspense. Tell us why.


<snipped>

Strabo

unread,
May 20, 2002, 1:39:02 AM5/20/02
to

Sid Omigo wrote:
>
> My files held by FBI, CIA, NIS, NSA were well over 200 pages, at least
> what I coud obtain using the FOIA. Have you ever requested yours?
>
> You attempt at humilation is a bit weak.

Do you know anything about the OKC bombing?

<snipped>

Strabo

unread,
May 20, 2002, 2:49:11 PM5/20/02
to

Sid Omigo wrote:

> McVeigh had never left the Army, but had been transferred to a
> 'special unit'. The bombing was done by a US special forces 'black
> ops' team consisting of three men.
>
> Just as Lee Oswald had handed out copies of "Fair Play for Cuba" to
> ID him as a "Commie", McVeigh was selling copies of "The Tuner
> Diaries" to get himself tagged as a "Domestic Terrorist". McVeigh was
> another "lone nut patsy". Three men were involved in the placement of
> explosives inside the Murrah building. McVeigh's truck was not nearly
> as effective in destroying the building as the explosvies inside were.
>
> I've seen a copy of the memo from ATF that says three other bombs were
> found inside the building unexploded.
>
> Elohim City was run by Federal government as a sting, but also to
> recruit "domestic terrorists" to do work for the FBI by proxy.
>
> At the time, Clinton's administration was right in the middle of a
> purge of high ranking military officers. Virtually all of the
> assassinations were done by sabotaging planes.Clinton was about to be
> formally charged with treason by flag level officers from each branch
> of the military. This was because Clintion had assisted with the
> transfer of the detailed designs of all the US's nuclear weapons to
> the Chinese, after he had received $25 million from the PLA.

> Ex-DCIA Director Colby and Admiral Boorda were gathering information
> to assist the flag officrs in their efforts to bring the CIC to court
> for treason.

> Most of the officers involved, were killed under Clinton's direct
> order as later were Colby and Boorda. OKC was the emergency
> Clinton needed to crack down on a growing populist movement to
> oust him for his blatant corruption in office, and treasonous
> activities.

> There is a lot more information, all of it begs the question: Why
> didn't the citizen's of the US clean house when Clinton was in
> office. His crimes, his assassinations were so obvious and well
> documented. He blatantly used blackmail to keep Senators,
> Representatives in check, as well as any investigators,
> judges or the media.

> By not throwing Clinton out of public office when they had the
> chance, the Americans chose to "forgive" him, believing for
> the most part the problems were related to a trivial sex scandal.

> In fact any one of Clintons crimes, including his role in
> importing cocaine to Mina, Arkansas while governor, the
> murder of Vince Foster due to his getting a conscience after
> the Waco massacre, and at least a hundred other clear
> cases of murder, extortion or blackmail should have got him
> tossed out of office like a two-bit criminal.

> Why didn't the American people use their power? By not throwing
> Clinton out of office, the Powers that Be behind the scenes who
> are callling the shots and controlling our government under any
> administration, simply got the green light to do anything, anywhere
> without consequence. It was one of the greatest mistakes in your
> county's history - to do nothing.

> The price will ultimately be your demise as a Republic. That process
> in already moving forward at a frightening speed.

> You sons and daughters will be slaughtered for the greed of a
> relatively small handful of people that consider those not in their
> circle to be nothign more than vermin.

> The price of not taking action then, was to see the end of your
> system of government in your lifetime. Those who died in your
> previous wars for that system of government will have died for
> nothing.

There was a certain West German present at Elohim City who returned
to Germany after the blow-up. Do you happen to know him?

Omigo@culture.net Sid Omigo

unread,
May 20, 2002, 4:36:58 PM5/20/02
to
On Mon, 20 May 2002 14:49:11 -0400, Strabo <str...@flashnet.com>
wrote:

You don't mean Andy Strassmeier, aka "Pete Ward",
and ex-head security for the FBI's own Elohim City,
whose father was once head of the Geman BND (CIA)
and later retired as German Secretary of State?.

Same Andreas Strassmeier whose grandfather was one
of the founder of the Nazi Party back in the 20's? Same
German who was whisked out of the US via Mexico back
to Germany to avoid having to testify that the OKC bombing
was an inside job? Same guy who knows about the links
between Iraq and highest-level officials in the US government,
and the use of "terrorism" as a tool of politics by the US?

Same Andy Strassmeier who was with US Army Special
Forces advisors when they loaded the second Ryder truck
with FOE at a secret military base halfway between
Juntion City, Kansas and Oklahoma City?

Same Strassmeir was a former Lieutenant in Germany's elite Panzer
Grenadiers, similar to US Special Forces, and was trained in military
intelligence?

Same Andy Strassmeier who was also a paid informant to the BATF?,
and Neo-Nazi, working both sides of the fence towards to "greater
agenda of the "New World Order"?

No, never heard of him.


Omigo@culture.net Sid Omigo

unread,
May 20, 2002, 5:19:08 PM5/20/02
to
On Mon, 20 May 2002 01:28:42 -0400, Strabo <str...@flashnet.com>
wrote:


Those that manage the ones who manage the US goverment,
want nothing less than to control the world. Having "won" the
Cold War, these extremely powerful people see the chance,
maybe once in a millenium chance to control the majority of
resources of the world. This requires dark alliances, and isn't
going to end with simple economic conquest.

There are those who will resist. This is why 15 world renowned
microbioligists-geneticists were murdered.

Each had a small piece of the "gene specific" GM virus weapons
technology being produced by scattered research teams, each
unaware of the ultimate purpose of their work.

>
><snipped>

Strabo

unread,
May 20, 2002, 6:47:03 PM5/20/02
to

Sid Omigo wrote:
>
> On Mon, 20 May 2002 14:49:11 -0400, Strabo <str...@flashnet.com>
> wrote:

<snipped>

> >
> >There was a certain West German present at Elohim City who returned
> >to Germany after the blow-up. Do you happen to know him?
>
> You don't mean Andy Strassmeier, aka "Pete Ward",
> and ex-head security for the FBI's own Elohim City,
> whose father was once head of the Geman BND (CIA)
> and later retired as German Secretary of State?.
>
> Same Andreas Strassmeier whose grandfather was one
> of the founder of the Nazi Party back in the 20's? Same
> German who was whisked out of the US via Mexico back
> to Germany to avoid having to testify that the OKC bombing
> was an inside job? Same guy who knows about the links
> between Iraq and highest-level officials in the US government,
> and the use of "terrorism" as a tool of politics by the US?
>
> Same Andy Strassmeier who was with US Army Special
> Forces advisors when they loaded the second Ryder truck
> with FOE at a secret military base halfway between
> Juntion City, Kansas and Oklahoma City?
>
> Same Strassmeir was a former Lieutenant in Germany's elite Panzer
> Grenadiers, similar to US Special Forces, and was trained in military
> intelligence?
>
> Same Andy Strassmeier who was also a paid informant to the BATF?,
> and Neo-Nazi, working both sides of the fence towards to "greater
> agenda of the "New World Order"?
>
> No, never heard of him.

Must have been another one.

Strabo

unread,
May 20, 2002, 6:49:38 PM5/20/02
to

Well, don't keep us in suspense. Who are they?



> There are those who will resist. This is why 15 world renowned
> microbioligists-geneticists were murdered.
>
> Each had a small piece of the "gene specific" GM virus weapons
> technology being produced by scattered research teams, each
> unaware of the ultimate purpose of their work.

And who employed these minions?

Sid Omigo

unread,
May 21, 2002, 2:54:50 AM5/21/02
to
On Mon, 20 May 2002 18:49:38 -0400, Strabo <str...@flashnet.com>
wrote:

OK Mr. Strabo, please tell me which is clearer, 1 or 2 ?, 1 or 2 ?


1) OVERT:

Welcome to the USAMRIID

The U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases
Fort Detrick, Maryland

As the Department of Defense's lead laboratory for medical aspects of
biological warfare defense, USAMRIID conducts research to develop
vaccines, drugs and diagnostics for laboratory and field use. In
addition to developing medical countermeasures, USAMRIID formulates
strategies, information, procedures, and training programs for medical
defense against biological threats.

USAMRIID investigates naturally occurring infectious diseases that
require special containment, and provides a critical capability to the
Army's infectious disease research program as the only DoD laboratory
equipped to study highly hazardous viruses at Biosafety Level 4. The
Institute also operates a world-renowned reference laboratory for
definitive identification of biological threat agents and diagnosis of
the diseases they produce.

While the Institute's primary focus is on protecting military service
members, its research programs have applications that benefit society
as a whole. USAMRIID investigators actively contribute to advances in
scientific knowledge and collaborate with the Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention, the World Health Organization, and academic
centers of excellence worldwide.

Award-winning military and civilian scientists, highly trained support
personnel, and unique, state-of-the-art research facilities make
USAMRIID a critical resource for the Army, the Department of Defense,
and the Nation.


2) COVERT:

To understand the enormity of our betrayal you must know about the
origin of the AIDS virus. The virologists of the world who brought us
this ghastly plague, have a united front in denying that the virus was
laboratory-made from known, lethal animal viruses.

1. The green monkey of Africa doesn't get human AIDS. You can't
reproduce the disease in monkeys even by injecting AIDS virus directly
into them.

2. After injecting the virus into monkeys, you can't transmit it to
other types of monkeys, much less to humans.

3. Genetically, AIDS (HIV-1) is not even close to the monkey form of
immunodeficiency virus. [Ed. note: For references on the three items
above, see: Seale, Dr. John J., Royal Society of Medicine, Sept. 1987,
Seale, Dr. John J., The Origin of AIDS _ International Conference on
AIDS, Cairo, March 1988.]

4. AIDS started not in the villages but in the cities of Africa, where
there are no wild monkeys.

5. The doubling time of AIDS infection being about 12 months, one
monkey biting one native and then spreading the disease would have
taken 20 years to reach a million cases. Seventy-five million Africans
became infected practically simultaneously. At the same time, the
disease became rampant in the U.S., Haiti and Brazil.

It is obvious that one monkey couldn't have done that for one
homosexual, either. There had to be some sort of simultaneous seeding
process. The only worldwide simultaneous seeding going on at the same
time was the smallpox vaccine program of the World Health Organization
(WHO). The early epidemiology of the AIDS pandemic fits the smallpox
vaccination project of the WHO _ AND NOTHING ELSE (with the exception
of the U.S., which we shall examine subsequently.)

The AIDS virus was created in a laboratory (Ft. Detrick) by combining
lethal animal "retroviruses" in human cancer (HeLA) cell cultures.
These viruses have never before caused infection in man. The "species
barrier" has always been nature's way of keeping a deadly virus from
wiping out the entire animal kingdom, including man. The myxoma virus
of rabbits, for example, wiped out the rabbit population of Europe,
but man and other animals were not affected. The sheep visna virus
completely decimated the flocks of Iceland, but no other animal was
affected.

The virologists deny that the AIDS virus, HIV-1, is of animal origin.
I am sure that you see the paradox here. Aren't monkeys animals?

They are also united in saying that it's not possible for the virus to
have been engineered in a laboratory. If it didn't come from other
animals and it didn't come from a laboratory, and they now admit
privately that the monkey couldn't have done it, then it must have
come out of thin air. That's a theological position and hence beyond
argument. It's certainly not scientific.

These scientists who have created this monstrous problem in their
sorcerer's retrovirology laboratories are constantly caught in their
own lies. The line goes: "The AIDS virus could not have been
engineered in a laboratory because the technology wasn't available
until recently." Icelandic scientists combined the sheep visna virus
with human tissue cells over 20 years ago. The technology has been
refined in recent years, but the basic process has been actively used
in labs all over the world for long before the AIDS virus made its
dramatic appearance.

If you look at articles from today's news, you will notice that there
are new genetic mutations of HIV springing up in various locations,
in Africa, Spain, Portugal, each a different mutation, but spreading
quickly in those locaitons.

This is the same Fort Detrick and same government that vehemently
deined since the 1950's that it was doing ANY offensive bioweapons
research, when in fact it was working continuously on such research,
and conducting experiments on prisoners and others to validate it's
findings.

Such "research" resulted in the one trillion spore per gram Anthrax,
which could only be produced in one facility in the world, and that
is Fort Detrick. It is also the same Anthrax (Ames strain), with
exactly same degee of purity (trillion spore per gram) that was
unleashed on a vulnerable public to rough-shod legislation
through Congress that gutted your Bill of Rights.


Maurice

unread,
May 21, 2002, 7:43:10 AM5/21/02
to
The poster writes:

"Such "research" resulted in the one trillion spore per gram Anthrax,
which could only be produced in one facility in the world, and that
is Fort Detrick."

There's no basis for this statement. First, it is known that the US
Army
recipe was not, in fact, used. Second, William Patrick has nothing
over
Ken Alibek, for example. Any former Russian anthrax scientist could
have accomplished the same spore concentration. Or other accomplished
microbiologist. It's silly to think that only an American could
accomplish it.
For example, a person experienced at making a similar product used in
fighting
grubs could have done it (and just switched to anthrax once he got
good at it).

Ft. Detrick didn't even make powdered anthrax, except as a rare
byproduct
that was unintended. What was sent from Dugway was irradiated. See
also
recent Army statement.

And so what you have is a case where the raw seed originated at Ft.
Detrick
and it was distributed -- under the most conservative of estimates --
to 20
labs, all of which had lax security.

It points to Ft. Detrick as the source -- just as it points to the cow
in
Texas as the source.

Sid Omigo

unread,
May 21, 2002, 12:03:02 PM5/21/02
to

On 21 May 2002 04:43:10 -0700, maurice...@hotmail.com (Maurice)
wrote:

>The poster writes:
>
>"Such "research" resulted in the one trillion spore per gram Anthrax,
>which could only be produced in one facility in the world, and that
>is Fort Detrick."
>
>There's no basis for this statement. First, it is known that the US
>Army
>recipe was not, in fact, used. Second, William Patrick has nothing
>over
>Ken Alibek, for example. Any former Russian anthrax scientist could
>have accomplished the same spore concentration. Or other accomplished
>microbiologist. It's silly to think that only an American could
>accomplish it.

No basis? Any person? The Russians heen trying to get that spore
concentration, and still have not succeeded. Other "accomplished"
biologist?

Then why was this concentration only developed 2 years ago
at USAMIID after 50 years of research?, and after the Soviets/Russians
still haven't succeeded?

Any "accomplished biologist? How about the Biology teacher
at the local high school? Don't think so.

FBI is dragging its feet on the "investigation" because they
know who developed it and where.

Message has been deleted

Sid Omigo

unread,
May 21, 2002, 9:56:04 PM5/21/02
to

See article at bottom from CNN, FBI is feeling the heat, can't
completely hide the fact anymore that USAMIID developed
it, is "investigating", which in FBI terms, mean they
have to plug the leaks. Too many people know it came out
of USAMIID, and the FBI wants to know WHY.

Didn't work with powered anthraz? Then why did USAMIID have
3 grams of it (powdered, trillion spore per gram) available
when the so called "anthrax attacks" were underway?

The trillion spore 'weaponzied' anthrax was developed only
two years ago, and that's when the patent was applied for
by the scientist who finally developed that level of concentration
(and the patent was granted, one of six he applied for at
that time).

Yes, Alibek is good, but even he amits the best the Russians have
ever been able to come up with is 500 billion spore per gram
concentration, which is why the discovered two years ago was
granted a patent.

It takes more than a flour mill to achieve Trillion spoke per gram
weaponized anthrax by the way, and I'm laughing as I write that.
A number of readers here have such grain mills.


On 21 May 2002 17:40:32 -0700, maurice...@hotmail.com (Maurice)
wrote:

>> No basis? Any person? The Russians heen trying to get that spore
>> concentration, and still have not succeeded. Other "accomplished"
>> biologist?
>>
>> Then why was this concentration only developed 2 years ago
>> at USAMIID after 50 years of research?, and after the Soviets/Russians
>> still haven't succeeded?
>>

>I didn't say a high school biology teacher or "any person". I said an
>accomplished microbiologist experienced at working with anthrax. The
>recent FBI report significantly broadened the profile as to the
>technical sophistication required. Those capable would include the
>anthrax scientists hired by Dr. Zawahiri to weaponize anthrax for use
>against American targets, according to his right-hand man in testimony
>in Egypt. (See e.g., the Filipino scientist described by US News or
>the Russian scientist referenced by Newsweek). And FWIW, Alibek, the
>former Russian fellow, says he could have done it, although he was
>mightily impressed to be sure. Zawahiri travelled to the DC area in
>the 90s with a US Army sergeant. On his trip, he was also travelling
>with a pharmacist and medical doctor.
>
>And there's no reason to think that Dr. Germ (Taja) (from Iraq) or her
>researchers could not have done it. Zawahiri has made more than one
>visit to Baghdad, to include a visit in 1998. UN Inspectors say the
>likelihood they don't have Ames to be near zero. We certainly have no
>info as to the spore concentration they achieved.
>
>Finally, what is your basis for saying that USAMRIID achieved the
>concentration just 2 years ago. I'll get the URL if you just pass on
>what paper you saw it in. I attempt to read all anthrax articles, and
>had never seen such a reference.
>Franz of Ft. Detrick in an early report at least said he had never
>seen the concentration. But the central point might be that Ft.
>Detrick didn't even make powdered anthrax. It worked with paste. As
>for Patrick's process, it's been patented for years. Are you saying
>Patrick, 75, hadn't achieved a trillion spore concentration years ago?

>I'm actually looking for sources (rather than disagreeing for the sake
>of disagreeing) and would appreciate any links you have. Isn't it
>true that coating individual spores is how it's been done for a long
>time, contrary to suggestions otherwise (see David Tell's Weekly
>Standard piece).
>
>And what is your basis for suggesting we know the spore concentration
>achieved by Russians (with Alibek's knowledge dated by well over a
>decade or whatever).
>Or the spore concentration of former Russian scientists that were
>working in labs in Afghanistan.
>
>The bottom line is that it's rash to assume that only someone at Ft.
>Detrick could do it.
>
>The key equipment likely was what was used in the sequential
>filtering, which I believe is common (flour sifting type equipment).
>
>Personally, I think it came from Ft. Detrick but would not have been
>processed there (and was processed elsewhere using a technique not
>known in the US.)


Lie detector tests planned in anthrax probe
May 21, 2002 Posted: 8:13 AM EDT (1213 GMT)


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Still seeking a suspect in the anthrax-by-mail
attacks, the Justice Department is preparing to give lie detector
tests to hundreds of federal workers at two facilities where anthrax
is kept, a law enforcement official says.

The government will administer the tests to workers at Fort Detrick,
Maryland, and Dugway Proving Ground, Utah. The tests will begin in
June.

Investigators will focus on workers who had expertise in preparing
anthrax for use as a weapon and those who may have had access to it,
the official said Monday, speaking on condition of anonymity.

The move underscores the government's growing suspicion that the
anthrax attacks were conducted by someone with legitimate access to
the deadly bacteria.



ABC News, which first reported the plans for testing, said some former
employees of both facilities may be given polygraph tests as well.

The law enforcement official said the plan to test employees does not
mean the government has a suspect.

The World Bank, meanwhile, told 1,200 of its 8,500 employees in
Washington not to report to work for two days because a preliminary
anthrax test of mail came back positive, a spokeswoman said Monday.
The preliminary tests often give false positives.

The World Bank has been regularly testing its mail for anthrax. A
field test of some mail came back positive Monday, spokeswoman
Caroline Anstey said. But a second test, conducted the same day, came
back negative.

Authorities are conducting a more thorough analysis, which can take up
to two days. (Full story)

The investigation into who sent several anthrax-laced letters last
year has produced few leads and investigators acknowledge the trail is
growing cold. The government has begun a strategy of focusing on
possible sources of anthrax and casting a wide net, rather than
identifying suspects from the few clues gained from the letters.

Officials at Fort Detrick and Dugway did not immediately return
telephone calls seeking comment Monday.

Army scientists in Utah have been developing a powdered form of
anthrax for use in testing biological defense systems, military
officials have said.

The Army said in a recent statement that small quantities of anthrax
have routinely been produced at Dugway, and then shipped to the Army's
biodefense center at Fort Detrick.

Fort Detrick, which also is home to the U.S. Army Medical Research
Institute of Infectious Diseases, has anthrax samples from other
sources as well.

Investigators began interviewing employees at Fort Detrick after
anthrax-laced letters were sent to members of Congress in Washington
and to television network offices in New York last year. Along the
way, anthrax spores leaking from the letters contaminated post office
buildings in Washington and New Jersey.

Two Washington postal workers died of inhaled anthrax, as did two
women thought to have been infected from the mail. At least 13 people
developed either skin or respiratory anthrax, but recovered.

The strain of anthrax found in letters mailed to Sens. Tom Daschle and
Patrick Leahy is called Ames, after the city in Iowa where researchers
first isolated it. Scientists at Detrick obtained a sample from the
Agriculture Department in the early 1980s for vaccine testing and gave
samples to at least five other labs.

Since the attacks, security at Fort Detrick has come under fire.

One former researcher at the infectious-disease center there said
recently that nothing would have prevented workers from removing
deadly germs from the labs.

Fort Detrick spokesman Charles Dasey declined to comment on the
allegations of lax security.


Bob G

unread,
May 22, 2002, 7:13:12 AM5/22/02
to
On Sun, 19 May 2002 12:44:21 -0700, Brown Thumb
<Brown...@RemOvEtHisGrrAttitude.com> wrote:

>Actually, I remember this one from the news at the time.
>
>I suspect all the things he lists are true -- the problem is, millions
>of other tips were probably coming in at the same time, so we're
>looking at 20-20 hindsight here.
>
>I would like to see some good AI programs working to spot
>such things, though. Some of that kind of AI stuff isn't that hard
>to program -- even Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing is capable of
>spotting a southpaw -- you could have a learning algorith, and start
>it a few years back, then let it know which alerts turned out true.
>
>It would NEVER replace humans, but it could augment the hell
>out of us. Maybe it would even notice that Joe Schmoe in
>Kansas and Jane Doe in Podunk have a tendency to a higher
>degree of accuracy in their memos, and so start giving them more
>weight. (Some people are better at intuiting from data than others,
>and that, in itself, is data.)
>

Chuckle ... maybe.

But at this time, I have no great faith in AI programs, or in the big
computers and their programs to track people, collect data about them,
flag data, etc.

They can do a lot. But they also make mistakes if some human does not
review the info with a critical eye.

I ca remembe back to the mid 70's when I got out of the Navy for a
little while and became a cop. We had this one fellow we were trying
to get identified. Picked up on a minor charge. But there was
something ... odd ... about him. Ran his vitals thru NCIC and our
local database, nothing. Had it check for 'close but not exact'
matches. Still nothing. Were about ready to give up when I had a
idea.

Got the computers to spit out very single reported traffic ticket in
the general area where he'd been picked up. That involved a male,
white, black hair, medium build, etc. He apparently liked to drive
fast. That night he'd been stopped originally for speeding, driving a
souped up car. Then it'd been discovered he was wanted for the other
minor offense. Then I had system check each name that showed up
against NCIC records. What do yah know? There was one listed, couple
years before this incident, whose name showed up on NCIC as a wanted
felon fugitive. Name was different, but physical description was very
close. And ... friggin initials were identical and first name used
was the same. Nearly. A nick of the whole first name. For shits and
grins I talked the jailhouse and judge into letting guy cool his heels
for long enough for us to get prints from the FBI. Bingo ... same
guy. He had whole new identity. New drivers license, new SSN, new
name, new address, new job, etc. But it was the same guy. It'd
simply been a hunch on my part, based on his actions I observed. He'd
simply looked to me as if he was hiding something. As as luck would
have it, it was a slow night and I had the time to do some checking.
If it'd been a busy night, I'd never have spent that much time as was
needed to come up with what I had.

Anyway, in my lifetime, I have had incidents with the accuracy of
computer data, mass gathered and not carefully reviewed by a human.

i.e. I once had a collection agency chasing me down and hounding me
for a delinquent loan ... which I never took out. One of those
chances of fate. There is a guy running around somewhere with a name
very similar to my real one. An SSN that is almost identical. And
apparently he was born within days of myself, in the same county.
Loan collection agency had run computer data matches on exact and near
matches. Became convinced I was the same fellow. Sent letters, made
calls to me, etc. I kept telling em that they'd made a mistake.
Hells, bells, the morons didn't even back check to see if we both
might actually exist. Or maybe they did and figured I'd managed to
establish a documented, fake identity. Anyway, they finally sent a
fellow, a big, tough talking dude to my front door. Trying to
frighten me into confessing and paying, I guess. Come to my door,
disturb my peace ... and I'm not friendly. We had a largely one sided
conversation, myself doing most of the talking. During which I might
have mentioned rearranging his face, then calling the cops and saying
he was a trespasser who invaded my home. I also mentioned a lawyer
and a lawsuit. In any event, I got his attention. In other ways than
just the fact I'd grabbed him and hauled him inside forcibly.
Presented military ID, driver's license, my wife showed him a book
with a copy of my birth certificate, copies of my school tanscripts
... all with my real name on them, various certificates of
achievement, letters, personal papers, etc (If you don't know, I'd had
to have several of those things to get in the service and to get the
security classification I had, I'd kept copies). Guy kept muttering
that the computer must've been wrong. Which seemed to surprise him
greatly.

Didn't surprise me in the least.

I'm not a computer expert. But know more than just a little about
them, their uses, their strenghts, and their weaknesses. First time I
worked with them was before I joined the Navy. Attended a joint
venture by Control Data Institute and a local college. Attending
classes in each. Originally going for a degree in computer science.
But changed and ended up with just a certificate in computer
techology. (computer repair ... the old mainframes such as the CDC
3100, 3300, etc) Decided to join the Navy.

The Navy had, has a LOT of them. And while I did not work in the
equivalent of IT, I worked with the results of what they could ... or
could not do. I couldn't count the number of times when we had to
rely on brain power instead of computer power, or the number of hours
I spent correcting data in databases because a programmer had not
foreseen a 'gotcha' or because of the old GIGO principle. I worked in
the engineering department. I can remember numerous times when I
spotted trends that the computer missed, found data the computer
didn't seem able to find on it's own, etc. In fact I was so good at
it, at finding faults in the raw data, and in the results ... durn
Navy started putting me in positions where it was part of my
responsibilities to check and correct such things, oversee the system.
Ferret out the garbage and fix it.

Part of my duties at my last assignment was specifically that sort of
thing. I wrote programming routines specifically meant to correct
mistakes in cross referencing, correlating data, matching data items,
doing searches and finds, and so forth. Technically I was a
recruiter. A senior one. But I spent more time at a computer than
out finding recruits. We tracked names. The name, address, school
attended, age, sex, etc of nearly every human between the ages of 16
and 25 in a 3 state area. Kept other info, too but I won't go into
that. Got our raw data from national Navy recruiting headquarters.
Then added data gathered from official school rosters. Plus city,
county, and state records of misc types. Yes, they'd let us have what
they had. i.e. To get a list of students in a school, or a list of
people between this and that age who had a valid Minnesota driver's
license just meant we had to show a valid use, sign the agreement that
we'd follow the rules about how the data might be used, and then pay N
cents per name on the list.

<Shrug> Name and data collection is a business. Big business. Almost
everyone engages in it. Hell, you'd have state agencies as well as
private ones bragging about their lists, how good they were, etc.
Throwing seminars and conferences with free coffee and snackies so
they could show you what they had. Even offer to provide special
sorting and parameter matches, etc for an additional fee. The U.S.
Post Office jumped in and developed a special program for searches,
matches, cross referencing, address correction of misspelled
addresses, and automatic updating of Zip codes. Fuzzy logic and AI
were words bandied about in that crowd long before anyone ever started
talking about the FBI using such things to find perps or possible
perps. It is likely the FBI first turned to the people in the list
making and selling biz to get their first ideas and start. It was
part of that business to want to be able to sort thru millions and
millions of pieces of data and try to find matches that'd produce a
list of names, for instance, of folk between 17 and 25 with decent
income who had somehow displayed an interest ... hmmm ... new video
equipment. Or whatever. I used to ask for lists of peope in a
certain age group subscribing to certain magazines, then compare list
against lists of students in high school or college taking certain
courses. In an effort to ID a special interest group. i.e. Kids with
an active interest in science and technology. Another favorite was to
ID those with an interest in hiking, camping, hunting, and fishing.
As a general rule, amongst that group we'd find more as a percentage
of the whole willing to at least talk to a military recruiter.

Yes, even tho we were a government agency, we had to buy those lists,
and sign the agreements about nondisclosure and proper usage. No, I
did not sell my list to civilians. It was forbidden.

Anyway, over time I went thru a lot of computer databases. Trust me,
there were a lot of mistakes. If I found a certai type that occurred
more than once, I'd write a specific program to seek out similar
amongst the millions and either eliminate or correct. i.e. For the
state driver's license list, I knew what mistakes their system
routinely made. When I got a new one I'd immediately batch run it
thru my subroutines to clean it up. Lists and data directly from
schools were perhaps the worst and most error filled. They were
terrible at keeping things straight as a general rule.

Chuckle, at the first of this year, as is her routine, my wife
requested data on us from a few of the major credit data collection
and clearinghouse agencies in the U.S. 3 of the biggest and most well
known. She does this every couple years. She knows, I've told her
about how much one can trust the data in those mass databases. She
got the reports and sat and went thru them line by line and wrote
letters of correction for the inevitable mistakes that showed up.
There are ALWAYS ... everytime ... several.

AI and computer organied databases has it's uses and possibilities.
But if yah think I trust such things absolutely .... LOLOL ... not a
chance.

Bob


I love my country ! It's the politicians I don't
like or trust.

Bob G

unread,
May 22, 2002, 7:14:12 AM5/22/02
to
On Sun, 19 May 2002 09:45:59 GMT, Gunner <gun...@lightspeed.net>
wrote:

>Sid Omigo <Sid Om...@culture.net> wrote:
>
>>My files held by FBI, CIA, NIS, NSA were well over 200 pages, at least
>>what I coud obtain using the FOIA. Have you ever requested yours?
>

>Hummm makes one wonder how many of those pages were psych diagnosis
>studies.
>
>In fact, yes, I have gotten mine. Interesting reading. Though..a bunch
>of my stuff was classified, I did get stuff via back channels.

>>
>>You attempt at humilation is a bit weak.
>>

>I wasn't trying to humiliate you Zit, your own posts do that well
>enough, for me not try to make the effort.
>
>Gunner
>

Gunner, I have been ignoring Sid, but this last round of posts he made
I caught some of what he was saying because it was quoted in posts
made by others.

There are so many things he says that don't ring true I wouldn't know
where to begin to list them.

Not the least of which is that he does not seem to know what some of
the agencies he lists actually do, nor how they go about conducting
business.

There are plenty of hints in what he says which indicate that the only
thing he knows ... is what he sees on TV or in fictional movies or
books ... or what his mind conjures up.

Chuckle, he kinda reminds me of one fella I met long ago. I was
working with a military security and law enforcement unit. Off base
stuff. Misc crap, as far as duties. Rapid response reenforcement to
security alerts among several bases, military law enforcement off
base, chaser (locating and returning AWOL types ... I didn't bother
with common AWOL. Who cared? Were found sooner or later, 98% of them.
I went after the ones wanted for additional charges. Drugs, assaults,
thievery, murder, etc.) and so forth.

In any event we got a call one night from the manager of one of those
all night diners. We stopped at the place most working nights, for
our 2 or 3 a.m. lunch. Manager knew me.

He wanted to know if it was normal practice for OSI agents to be
hanging around diners in the wee morning hours asking folks if they
knew some fella who was supposedly a commie secret agent. Guy was
flashing picture of supposed perp. When asked for ID to prove he was
some government agent he flashed a card so fast no one got a chance to
read it. At first he'd said he was DIA. Later changed it to OSI.
Finally said he was OSI on temporary loan to the DIA. In any event,
manager had been suspicious at first. But when guy started asking
some female customer about her private sex life, the manger got really
suspicious and thus called me.

<G> First thing I did was radio a question to the local military
hospital and ask them if Bert was missing again. From the Rubber
Ward. What we called their Psych Ward. A nurse wanted to know how we
knew as she'd not yet sent out an alert for him. I told her to keep
Bert's room warm as I was pretty sure I knew where he was at that very
moment. And we'd soon be bringing him home.

LOLOL ... the month before that Bert had been a mercenary working for
the CIA.

The thing was, when Bert was having one of his .... ummm ... episodes,
he actually believed his wild flights of imagination.

At least Bert was relatvely harmless. Different from a fellow some
... 15 yrs later. Greg was the name. My last tour of duty,
recruiting. Greg came into the downtown regional office and cornered
our executive officer. She was a LtCdr. Greg was waving this BIG
bohunk of a knife and telling her he'd been wronged. It'd all been a
conspiracy against him by THEM.

I never did figure out eactly who THEY were. But according to Greg
THEY were responsible for his having been booted out of the Navy. And
had continued to hound him and ensure he failed at everything he did
and never got ahead. THEY were trying to ruin him, drive him crazy,
make him act crazy ... so no one would believe him. So everyone would
think he was a crazy man and not listen to him. That's how THEY did
these things. To guard THEIR secret. THEY were very clever, indeed.
It was better than leaving mysteriously dead bodies around. Which
might make people suspicious.

Anyway, he wanted his records, all of them, including the secret ones
THEY wanted hidden. He was gonna prove he wasn't crazy ad he was
gonna reveal THEM.

I'd been next door for coffee and one of the clerks ran to get me,
'Senior ! The X.O. needs help ! Some guy is in there with a knife.'

No, the building we were in didn't have secret guards watching.
LOLOL. It was leased office space. No security types. We'd have to
call the police like anyone else. I figured I could at least find out
if the problem was truly serious first. Just a crazy man with a
knife, maybe he'd like to chat? :-)

I'm perfectly serious.

Marched in like I belonged there, and I did. Reminded him brusquely
to address me properly ... I was not a Dude ... I was called Chief, or
Senior, or Senior Chief. Now what the hell was his major malfunction?
He had a gripe? Fine let's talk. I was the damn Senior Chief of the
Command ... so what was he doing talking to the X.O. about his
problems? He'd been enlisted, therefore he should damn well be
talking to me. Besides, she was an officer, what the heck did she
know about enlisted matters and concerns? Just a durn LtCdr, hells
bells she was barely qualified to tie her shoes without help. Know
knock off this nonsense and come with me so we could talk the right
way, over a cup of coffee. Where he could say things officers
shouldn't hear and wouldn't understand, anyway. By the way, put the
friggin knife away, I was not impressed and he didn't need it anyway.
Yeah, he could keep it, now come along.

We had a long talk, and I was sympathetic. Let him talk away and
vent. Told him that I'd sure like to help, but damn it, he'd come to
the wrong place. We were just lowly, common squids, doing our job.
He didn't think THEY would let us have those secret records, did he?
Yadda ... yadda ... yadda. Must've spent an hour listenig to his
rants, then changed the subject gradually til we were swapping jokes
and sea stories. Then I sent him on his way. With a pat on the back
and my sympathies. After we said a little prayer, on our knees, of
course. He insisted. Wanted me to pray for him so that the Lord
might give him the strenght he needed to carry on. He figured that I,
as a senior chief, might have a little more leverage with God than he
did. (I may have encouraged him to think so)

Chuckle. And away he went. Feeling much better.

Turns out he lived at a VA halfway home for mental cases. I'd gotten
his name, etc and later checked on him. He was in fact ex-Navy.
Medically discharged as dinky dou.

Couple months later he was shot by the police. He'd been yelling
something about conspiracies, THEM, and that the cops were agents of
THEM. Charged the cops with his knife.

<Shrug> He was a big fella, and looked bull strong, and that was a BIG
knife he kept hauling around. Guess they didn't know how to talk to
such types. Or maybe he didn't give em a chance. They weren't
wearing the right uniform.

Anyway, can't believe you're debating with Sid.

Unless you're just doing it for entertainment. :-)

Bob

*** Sid, if you read this, you will probably guess the truth.

I am one of THEM.

Sid Omigo

unread,
May 22, 2002, 12:55:15 PM5/22/02
to

I know exactly what each of the agencies do, more than I want
to know.

You are a victim, has nothing to do with what you think about your
Fatherland.

The Germans loved their country too, even at the peak of the 3rd
Reich.

The more one "loves ones country", the blinder they are to it's
abuses of power.

Bob G

unread,
May 22, 2002, 10:16:51 PM5/22/02
to
On Wed, 22 May 2002 09:55:15 -0700, Sid Omigo <SI_D...@Culture.Net>
wrote:

>>*** Sid, if you read this, you will probably guess the truth.
>>
>>I am one of THEM.
>>
>>
>>I love my country ! It's the politicians I don't
>>like or trust.
>
>I know exactly what each of the agencies do, more than I want
>to know.

Chuckle, you do?

>
>You are a victim, has nothing to do with what you think about your
>Fatherland.

I'm a victim? Geez, this victim status is pretty decent. I could get
to like it. I'm free to pick any job I can qualify for. Free to
learn something knew. Free to criticize or praise the government. Go
where I want, when I want. Have a home and several acres. And a lake
cabin. And several vehicles. And my own boat. Can persue my
favorite pasttime of fishing when I wish. Am free to own firearms,
and own several. Don't have to keep everything locked up. Local
police are civil to people and decent. I make a decent living. The
grocery stores are full of a wide variety of items. And cheap in
comparison to my income. Excellent medical and dental care are
available and affordable to me. Etc. Etc.

Hmmmm. Considering I started in this world born to a dirt poor
family, and not exactly a member of the dominant 'race' and culture of
this country.

I would say that my 'victim' status hasn't been all that bad of a
thing.

GAD ... I'm trying. Really, I am. But ... I just don't feel like a
victim.

Maybe I just don't have that 'victim mentality'? Can I learn it?
Anyone giving a class on how to achieve it?

Where do I go to learn to blame everyone else for my own failures,
lack of abilities, lack of initiative, etc etc ... so that I can be a
good little victim?

And ... golly ... I just have to get over the fact that I feel pretty
good and am pretty happy. Sorry, can't help it. Especially with the
holiday weekend coming up and my looking forward to going fishing with
my wife and friends.

How about if after the holiday I work on being dismal, angry at the
world, unhappy, and unsatisfied? I'm try ... I promise.

>The Germans loved their country too, even at the peak of the 3rd
>Reich.
>
>The more one "loves ones country", the blinder they are to it's
>abuses of power.

I'm not blind to a thing. Just because I do not agree with you, that
does not make me blind, stupid, uninformed ... or wrong.

You are typical of your kind. If anyone disagrees with you, you are
convinced they must be blind and ignorant.

FYI, in the past in this group, when I've disagreed with the
government, I've said so. I do not always agree with them. In fact I
disagree with much.

We are not perfect, a fact of which I am well aware. But then,
neither are you or your country. Or any other. I have seen, first
hand, a great deal of this country, and of other countries. I have
spent literally years of my life outside of this country.

Yep ... we have faults ... we are not perfect. But having seen a lot
of what else is out there in the world .... I prefer it here. By far.

You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion.

Just remember ... your opinion is worth no more than anyone else's.

Bob

Skip Hammond

unread,
May 23, 2002, 1:02:07 AM5/23/02
to

"Bob G" <sa...@pclink.com> wrote in message
news:3cec512b$0$1414$272e...@news.execpc.com...

> GAD ... I'm trying. Really, I am. But ... I just don't feel like a
> victim.
>
> Maybe I just don't have that 'victim mentality'? Can I learn it?
> Anyone giving a class on how to achieve it?
>
> Where do I go to learn to blame everyone else for my own failures,
> lack of abilities, lack of initiative, etc etc ... so that I can be a
> good little victim?

Just keep repeating to yourself "It's not my fault" and "I deserve better".
Eventually you will begin to believe it. Then you can start hanging out
with other losers and chant the mantras together. Be persistent, eventually
you will get the hang of it.


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