Caterpillar 416b backhoe

[Stumpy]

Haven't used it much this summer and tried to start it up to begin
collecting fire wood. Ignition switch in accessory mode shows good
battery. When I rotate to "on" the indicator lights extinguish and
rotating further there is no attempt to start, not even a click. I
assume that there is some safety interlock preventing the attempt to start.
I can't read schematics but wonder if there is a list(with pictures).
I'd be willing to defeat such interlocks temporarily to get it going.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

On Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:50:26 -0700, Stumpy <peri...@spamnet.con>
wrote:

Motion controls in neutral position ?

< my lawn tractor has that interlock :-) >

John T.

[Stumpy]

Yeah. Checked that. Transmission in neutral too. I exercised the seat in
case it has "operator fell of the machine" interlock too.

[Dean Hoffman]

I'd be skeptical about the battery good thing. Could you clean
the terminals,
check the battery cables and the ground connection? Try jump starting it.
Can you put the jumper cables directly on the starter to see if it
cranks then?
There should be 12 volts on the heavy cable on the starter solenoid.
Can you
run a wire from it to the fuel solenoid?
I found a wiring diagram but it wasn't clear enough to do much good.
The ignition
switch apparently engages a relay that in turn powers all the other
stuff. Connections
on the ignition switch? Bad relay? Where are the fuses?
Does your local hardware or auto parts store have jumper wires with
alligator clips?
Those things are pretty handy. The auto parts store should have a
12vdc test light. That
might be handy.
I found a site called just answer. It's slow loading for whatever
reason. The site supposedly has mechanics and others to answer
questions. I'm not smart enough
about internet stuff to know if it's safe.

[Stumpy]

I have a hard-copy schematic but they baffle me in general. While
troubleshooting I run a trickle charger(6 amp) and all battery
connections look good. The mystery is the fact that accessory mode has
all indicators and lights, horn etc. working fine. Turn ignition to run
and all those lose power. It's not supposed to work like that. I'm
looking into buying a new ignition switch but then I'm just throwing
money at the problem with no certainty. It's been too hot here to work
all day, will pick up again this morning with some of your suggestions.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

>
>I have a hard-copy schematic but they baffle me in general. While
>troubleshooting I run a trickle charger(6 amp) and all battery
>connections look good. The mystery is the fact that accessory mode has
>all indicators and lights, horn etc. working fine. Turn ignition to run
>and all those lose power. It's not supposed to work like that. I'm
>looking into buying a new ignition switch but then I'm just throwing
>money at the problem with no certainty. It's been too hot here to work
>all day, will pick up again this morning with some of your suggestions.
>
>

I've heard of a bad battery exhibiting this -
seems fine under low load - fails from the higher
current load of trying to start < internal short ? >

I suspect that you've operated the motion and
transmission controls back and forth through
the range to un-stick a micro switch ..
John T.

[Stumpy]

On 10/2/20 7:13 AM, hub...@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>
>> I have a hard-copy schematic but they baffle me in general. While
>> troubleshooting I run a trickle charger(6 amp) and all battery
>> connections look good. The mystery is the fact that accessory mode has
>> all indicators and lights, horn etc. working fine. Turn ignition to run
>> and all those lose power. It's not supposed to work like that. I'm
>> looking into buying a new ignition switch but then I'm just throwing
>> money at the problem with no certainty. It's been too hot here to work
>> all day, will pick up again this morning with some of your suggestions.
>>
>>
>
>
> I've heard of a bad battery exhibiting this -
> seems fine under low load - fails from the higher
> current load of trying to start < internal short ? >
>

It does seem fine under low load and the starter doesn't even get a
chance to apply a load.

> I suspect that you've operated the motion and
> transmission controls back and forth through
> the range to un-stick a micro switch ..
> John T.
>

Yah. Did that.

I'm disassembling to confirm that a 4 terminal ignition switch is worth
purchasing. One version has 4 terminals, another has a single plastic
connector with 4 or 5 wires inside it.

I still have some homework to do.

[Stumpy]

On 10/1/20 5:31 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

This is hard going. Caterpillar may have a philosophy of making things
difficult so that you resort to hiring a qualified technician. I was
having to use a mirror to inspect the fuses and exploring the switch by
touch. They even goad you to enter serial numbers to verify that parts
are compatible. It's almost like their real objective is to find stolen
equipment.

This may be why Just Answer is able to extract payment for
troubleshooting help.

[Dean Hoffman]

I was curious how things were going. You're paying yourself a
hundred
bucks an hour or so.
Can you get to the starter relatively easily? A jumper from the big
cable on the starter to the fuel solenoid should tell you something.
Maybe it would
engage the solenoid and backfeed whatever else is necessary to make the
thing move.
The fuel pump might be one of those things.
Happy huntin'

[Stumpy]

On 10/3/20 7:49 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> On 10/3/20 9:17 AM, Stumpy wrote:
>> On 10/1/20 5:31 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
>>> On 10/1/20 11:02 AM, Stumpy wrote:
>>>> On 10/1/20 9:04 AM, hub...@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:50:26 -0700, Stumpy <peri...@spamnet.con>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>

>>>>>> ...

No, I'm paying myself about $20/hr.

The front bucket arms are down so some of the access ports are
inaccessible until it's running.

I'm waiting on parts.

Troubleshooting is a lonely business, I'll try to do it offline to save
myself embarrassment.

[Dean Hoffman]

>>y

>
> No, I'm paying myself about $20/hr.
>
> The front bucket arms are down so some of the access ports are
> inaccessible until it's running.
>
> I'm waiting on parts.
>
> Troubleshooting is a lonely business, I'll try to do it offline to save
> myself embarrassment.

Yeah. And it's so easy to second guess. I'm a retired pivot fixer.
Guys would call us for help then sometimes get in the way and tell us
how to do
things. It always took us too long when it was time for them to pay the
bill.
There are several quotes along these lines.

“He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains
a fool forever.”

― Mark Twain

[Dean Hoffman]

Oops, I screwed up. I should've written that my repair work
always took
too long when it was time to pay the bill. People didn't make a habit
of calling
me fast or smart.

[Stumpy]

I know what you mean.

>>     There are several quotes along these lines.
>>
>> “He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask
>> remains a fool forever.”
>>
>> ― Mark Twain
>>
>

I like to get a second opinion early, before I'm committed to an error.

The pickup truck is doing fine for firewood right now anyway.

[Stumpy]

On 10/3/20 7:49 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

Well it took me long enough but yesterday got it running. After
completely inspecting the back of the control panel I found 6 wires
chewed through. The colored ones were just to son-alert and gauges and
indicators. Probably was one of the 2 black ones.
I made some rat excluder modifications to try to keep them out in the
future. Cut up an old dryer lint screen to fit around the cable bundle
and backed it up with 1" wood. I'll keep my eye out for some dense
plastic than would be more permanent.
Thanks for the tip about using jumper cables. I confirmed that it wasn't
a bad ground between the battery and the engine by leaving the black
jumper attached. It essentially 1/2ed the number of potential faults
while troubleshooting.

[Dean Hoffman]

Good deal. Just in time maybe. Snow coming to Nebraska.

[Stumpy]

On 10/25/20 3:58 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> On 10/25/20 9:34 AM, Stumpy wrote:
>>>

...

>>
>> Well it took me long enough but yesterday got it running. After
>> completely inspecting the back of the control panel I found 6 wires
>> chewed through. The colored ones were just to son-alert and gauges and
>> indicators. Probably was one of the 2 black ones.
>> I made some rat excluder modifications to try to keep them out in the
>> future. Cut up an old dryer lint screen to fit around the cable bundle
>> and backed it up with 1" wood. I'll keep my eye out for some dense
>> plastic than would be more permanent.
>> Thanks for the tip about using jumper cables. I confirmed that it
>> wasn't a bad ground between the battery and the engine by leaving the
>> black jumper attached. It essentially 1/2ed the number of potential
>> faults while troubleshooting.
>
>     Good deal.  Just in time maybe.   Snow coming to Nebraska.

No snow near the Mexico border, but 42 deg.F in the morning. Made the
first fire of the season and it's alot easier to collect wood with a
hydraulic bucket than a wheelbarrow.