Lime in Outhouse Pit?
David Buchner
of those "compost starter" potions, that lime is worse than useless,
because it actually kills off the microorganisms that ought to be
breaking stuff down. But I've still heard from a few people who insist
that lime [somehow] "breaks down wastes."
What do you think? Has anybody experienced anything that accelerated the
decomposition and seriously reduced the volume of stuff in the bottom of
that pit? I really hate digging holes in this "soil" I have here.
--
David
Buc...@wcta.net Osage MN USA
Goedjn
>
> What do you think? Has anybody experienced anything that accelerated the
> decomposition and seriously reduced the volume of stuff in the bottom of
> that pit? I really hate digging holes in this "soil" I have here.
Yeah. Water. And Air.
Ecnerwal
> that pit? I really hate digging holes in this "soil" I have here.
So build a sanitary (or "AMC-style") outhouse. Dig one hole, once, never
dig again. Plunk in a concrete box (or pour one in place). When it
starts looking a bit full, have the honeywagon come calling. That
"seriously reduces the volume" much more efficiently than lime,
woodashes, etc (which mostly just slow down odor & flies - a good vent
and screening should do much of those two functions).
Presumably you don't have the water supply, or have some other reason
(no heat, prefer outhouse, whatever) for not using Mr. Crapper's
invention and a septic field.
If you're so far off in the boonies that there's no honeywagon access
you can choose between a composting toilet or digging more holes.
Composting is less likely to muck up the water supply in the area.
Fran Higham
> Any opinions? I've read in a number of places, including the packaging
> of those "compost starter" potions, that lime is worse than useless,
> because it actually kills off the microorganisms that ought to be
> breaking stuff down. But I've still heard from a few people who insist
> that lime [somehow] "breaks down wastes."
Lime reduces the smell and here in this country, it stops flies from
breeding in the poop pile. I've nevr heard that it breaks down waste.
> What do you think? Has anybody experienced anything that accelerated the
> decomposition and seriously reduced the volume of stuff in the bottom of
> that pit?
No. Since you are constantly topping it up with new additions, I can't see
that anyone will be able to suggest a reduction solution beyond not adding
to it on a daily basis..
ReMoVeSpAm
Then keyword Search: outhouse
Halcitron
Check your six and know when to duck.
Que Sera
bo...@charter.net says...
> On Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:23:46 +1100, ernie...@bigpond.com wrote:
>
>
> Well...I would rather discuss it among friends, which is why this NG is in
> existence. Hell, let's just dissolve the NG and use google for everything!
The more I contemplate that statement, the more bizarre the idea gets to
be.
> Naw, just kidding. I'll check on google. ;-)
>
> Checked until my eyes were blurry, found nothing specific! I did find some
> very funny "outhouse" stories though...
When will you share the URLs?
> "From the Heart of Cajun Country".
>
> Bob
>
--
wolf
Carpe Flucti (seize the waves)
David Buchner
> As far as I know, the only purpose of sprinkling on a bit of quicklime
> is to reduce odor and make the outhouse less attractive to flies.
> Don't think it would necessarily do anything to help break down
> wastes, and certainly wouldn't if used too much of it.
That's what I thought. And I always try to steer customers where I work
away from that method, and suggest trying the "compost starter" enzymes,
or a little sawdust, or something like that. At least the theory with
those sounds a litte more plausible to me.
But a septic-tank-pumping guy reiterated the "lime makes it go away"
folk tale, so I was wondering a little.
I had Unfortunately, I took that advice a little too seriously, and
added quite a bit of sawdust to mine over the last few years, and I
think it mostly just got fuller and fuller. Down there in the cool with
no oxygen, it all seems to just... sit there.
I had read somewhere glowing accounts of pits at somebody's summer
cabin, where they'd toss a bunch of newspapers or shavings in the hole
at the end of the season, and it would be miraculously emptier when they
returned...
> There are bacteria that can be used in septic tanks that are supposed
> to aid breakdown, but haven't seen a similar product for pit toilets.
> Should be plenty of natural bacteria present to aid the task.
Just out of random it-can't-hurt hope, last summer I flooded the thing
with the hose a couple of times, and dumped a bunch of those septic tank
chemicals in there. I also had a guy who pumps septic tanks come by and
try to suck it out, but it was too solid and concretey, and he wasn't
able to suck up much.
Our outhouse doesn't get used much any more, as we've gone to the
dirt-cheap, bucket-o-sawdust method of composting. So I'm hoping maybe
the volume of stuff in the pit will go down more if its given a "rest"
-- enough to make it usable for guests and such for quite a while to
come.
David Buchner
> Lime is not lime. Slaked lime is a mild base used for agriculture and
> whitewashing. Quicklime is a powerful caustic used to dissolve those pesky
> murder victims. It will quickly break down poop or anything organic, you can
> bet!
>
> I am thinking of a small emergency latrine trench, and a bag of quicklime.
> Layer the QL on bottom of trench, and cover each layer of waste with a
> sufficient layer of QL. When the latrine pit starts getting full, fill it
> with dirt and dig a new latrine.
But if the quicklime is breaking stuff down, why is it filling up so
fast?
So, what *is* quicklime (or slaked, for that matter)? Is it just
different forms of ground-up limestone?
David Buchner
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:07:15 +1100, ernie...@bigpond.com wrote:
> >There are bacteria that can be used in septic tanks that are supposed
> >to aid breakdown, but haven't seen a similar product for pit toilets.
> >Should be plenty of natural bacteria present to aid the task.
>
>
> How about coliform bacteria getting into the water table? I wouldn't want to
> drink water from a well that's close to an outhouse or latrine pit unless
> measures were taken to kill the bacteria.
You mean the bacteria in the additives? 'Cuz I don't think those are the
same thing as the "coliform bacteria" people worry about with fecal
contamination in the water. So I don't think that would increase the
risk. But if the one kind could get into the water table, yes obviously
the others would too and that would not be good if the well was within a
thousand feet or so, depending on the soil.
Myself, I'm not too worried as I'm up on a Big Hill way above the water
table, and the outhouse is actually on the back slope relative to where
my well is. There's a great long distance of percolation between there
and there.
Janet Baraclough
from buc...@wcta.net (David Buchner) contains these words:
> Just out of random it-can't-hurt hope, last summer I flooded the thing
> with the hose a couple of times, and dumped a bunch of those septic tank
> chemicals in there. I also had a guy who pumps septic tanks come by and
> try to suck it out, but it was too solid and concretey, and he wasn't
> able to suck up much.
> Our outhouse doesn't get used much any more, as we've gone to the
> dirt-cheap, bucket-o-sawdust method of composting. So I'm hoping maybe
> the volume of stuff in the pit will go down more if its given a "rest"
> -- enough to make it usable for guests and such for quite a while to
> come.
If it's not used and is cool and damp and you haven't limed it
yet..why don't you try adding worms, the kind people use in
worm-farms? (In the UK they are called brandlings and you can buy
them in fishing shops; they aren't the same as the earthworms in
garden soil). I use them in my compost heaps after a finished heap
has cooled down (worms hate heat). They breed fast and digest
everything into a dark crumbly compost.
Janet.
ReMoVeSpAm
>Myself, I'm not too worried as I'm up on a Big Hill way above the water
>table, and the outhouse is actually on the back slope relative to where
>my well is. There's a great long distance of percolation between there
>and there.
Reminds me of a guy up in Maine, who one day had foul tasting water from the
well. He sent a sample to the lab. The lab guy called back and told him he had
to stop using either the well or the outhouse. So, he stopped using the
outhouse and the well dried up.
John A. Stanley
buc...@wcta.net (David Buchner) wrote:
>So, what *is* quicklime (or slaked, for that matter)? Is it just
>different forms of ground-up limestone?
Quicklime is limestone (calcium carbonate) that has been heated to drive
off CO2, leaving calcium oxide, CaO (a very caustic substance.) Slaked
lime is quicklime that has been allowed to react with water to form
calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2. Ultimately, the calcium hydroxide reacts
with CO2 in the air to form calcium carbonate.
--
John A. Stanley Remove delicious mucilaginous vegetable to email
Anthony Matonak
...
> I had Unfortunately, I took that advice a little too seriously, and
> added quite a bit of sawdust to mine over the last few years, and I
> think it mostly just got fuller and fuller. Down there in the cool with
> no oxygen, it all seems to just... sit there.
You are using a mixing stick, right?
Anthony
charles krin
>US science and medicine has long been metric, of course. How many
>doctors or pharmacists today would be that familiar with grains,
>drachms, etc.? :-)
>
>Dr. Krin might be. :-)
>
lol...mom was a diploma RN from the 50s...so yes, I can convert the
basics without too much trouble...62.5 mg per grain for ex...
ck
--
country doc in louisiana
(no fancy sayings right now)
Fran Higham
> I can get URL's off the Web. If I want a personal opinion, there is no
> better place to ask than here. It's what this NG was created for.
You've already been given personal opinion. Use lime (any variety to reduce
smell). (If you can't figure out which type of lime to use then use wood
ash. If you are a gardener or someone with a scientific interest then you
will be able to figure out why they may be interchangeable in this
situation).
> I know everything I need to know about quicklime itself. I was just
fishing
> for any personal experience using it in latrine pits.
You earlier said you were interested in a trench. If you are now talking
about a pit, then make it very deep and if it is very deep then you won't
need to worry about it filling for years. After you've dug it to anywhere
between 10 to 30 ft and you then start to use it then more agreeable
conditions can be gained by the use of lime or wood ash (a cup at a time).
Nothing (not even worms in a composting loo) is going to REDUCE the quantity
in a system to which something is regularly added. If you don't clean it
out or get someone else to clean it out or somehow regularly take something
away from that system then you either stop crapping in it (because it
increases the pile) or you go do a dump somewhere else. Liquid may drain
away and it may LOOK like there is less in it but basically if you crap, you
add.
If what you are interested in achiving is a more rapid decomposition than
the anaerobic conditions that would normally be present in a "long drop" or
"pit" toilet would allow, then you are talking about something else
entirely.
As I said, the advice has already been given and it has been given on the
use of lime in a pit toilet. It is based on personal experience. If you
don't like the advice then that is up to you, however, if you now want
opinion about some other form of toilet (that is not a pit toilet) and some
other form of chemical (that is not in the lime family or which acts like
lime) then perhaps you need to be more specific about what it is you want
and explain what you are trying to achieve (if anything) or whether you are
just chewing the fat out of personal interest.
David Buchner
> If it's not used and is cool and damp and you haven't limed it
> yet..why don't you try adding worms, the kind people use in
> worm-farms? (In the UK they are called brandlings and you can buy
> them in fishing shops; they aren't the same as the earthworms in
> garden soil). I use them in my compost heaps after a finished heap
> has cooled down (worms hate heat). They breed fast and digest
> everything into a dark crumbly compost.
Hmmm. I think I will.
Good idea.
David Buchner
> You are using a mixing stick, right?
Uhh, mixing stick.
[insert "this is getting yuckier and yuckier" here]
Fran Higham
wrote:
>
> Hi Fran,
>
> Thank you for your info. It will help me decide which way to go.
I can't really see how. I am still wondering whether you are interested in
a pit toilet, an emergency trench or some other form of toilet.
Perhaps I have missed some posts as it seems most likely from your response
to Janet's post that you have an unused old pit toilet. My concern about
adding worms to such a set up would be that it would be difficult to extract
them. Far better I would have thought to just start a worm farm in an old
bathtub or garbage bin and use the vermicompost and worm juice staraight
from that onto the garden. Once the worms are in a pit toilet I would
assume that you would have to consider then gone. I can't envisage anyone
regularly going down a pit toilet to harvest them.
> No thanks for the lecture on the non quicklime-related stuff. Who hasn't
> already heard *that stuff a million times?
Yes; I also thought we had heard that stuff at least a million times. I
was left wondering why, after hearing it a million times, you were still so
insistent on wanting opinions when you had already had them at least those
million times you mention.
> Thanks for the lecture at least being polite. :-)
I'm usually polite but unless one spends a great deal of time pussy footing
around and adding smiley faces it seems that most people have difficulty in
recognising unadulterated facts unless they come gift wrapped in huge
dollops of sugar coating.
Usually those who claim to most admire "plain speaking" have the most
trouble. I guess it is a product of all the insincere gush we see and hear
in the various forms of media. I am very interested to see the products
arising from the new "Office of Strategic Influence". They could do worse
that to base their massaging of information by analysing some of the
offerings available on ngs. I rather fancy a government media release that
includes lashings of smiley faces. Who knows, it may even do something to
improve the quality of said information.
Janet Baraclough
from "Fran Higham" <ma...@mak.com.au> contains these words:
> Perhaps I have missed some posts as it seems most likely from your response
> to Janet's post that you have an unused old pit toilet. My concern about
> adding worms to such a set up would be that it would be difficult to extract
> them. Far better I would have thought to just start a worm farm in an old
> bathtub or garbage bin and use the vermicompost and worm juice staraight
> from that onto the garden. Once the worms are in a pit toilet I would
> assume that you would have to consider then gone. I can't envisage anyone
> regularly going down a pit toilet to harvest them.
Nah, Fran, I wasn't suggesting either the worms or their compost be
extracted from the pit later. It's just an idea for how to
bio-degrade the pit contents into something odourless and completely
harmless, with no risk of longterm watercourse or soil contamination,
which won't attract flies.
> I rather fancy a government media release that
> includes lashings of smiley faces.
Sounds just like Tony Blair :-(
Janet
Fran Higham
> from "Fran Higham" <ma...@mak.com.au> contains these words:
>
> > Perhaps I have missed some posts as it seems most likely from your
response
> > to Janet's post that you have an unused old pit toilet. My concern
about
> > adding worms to such a set up would be that it would be difficult to
extract
> > them. Far better I would have thought to just start a worm farm in an
old
> > bathtub or garbage bin and use the vermicompost and worm juice staraight
> > from that onto the garden. Once the worms are in a pit toilet I would
> > assume that you would have to consider then gone. I can't envisage
anyone
> > regularly going down a pit toilet to harvest them.
>
> Nah, Fran, I wasn't suggesting either the worms or their compost be
> extracted from the pit later. It's just an idea for how to
> bio-degrade the pit contents into something odourless and completely
> harmless, with no risk of longterm watercourse or soil contamination,
> which won't attract flies.
I thought that might be the idea behind your suggestion, but that seems like
such a profligate use of worms to me. A disused pit stops reeking fairly
quickly if it's not being added to, a currently in use one would drown the
worms and given how useful the worms are, I hate to see good ones go to
waste.
Mine seem to have such regular setbacks from the weather and various other
predations of nature, pets or animals that I am valuing them more than a
writhful of worms should rightfully be valued.
> > I rather fancy a government media release that
> > includes lashings of smiley faces.
>
> Sounds just like Tony Blair :-(
Now you come to mention it, that description does seem to be absolutley spot
on! Poor old Blurr does have the perfect face for it doesn't he!!
If you want to have a particularly good belly laugh at political propaganda,
you may wish to check out some of our newspapers for the current fracas
here. The PM obviously thinks we are extremely stupid as a nation. We
currrently have "the children in the water gate" (who told who lies about
refugees throwing children overboard and the PM never being told it wasn't
true) and the Governor General (strongly defended by the PM) being involved
in accusations of coverups of child sexual abuse 40 years ago.
If it wasn't such an affront to the intelligence it would be as funny as a 3
ring circus.
David Buchner
> I thought that might be the idea behind your suggestion, but that seems
> like such a profligate use of worms to me. A disused pit stops reeking
> fairly quickly if it's not being added to, a currently in use one would
> drown the worms and given how useful the worms are, I hate to see good
> ones go to waste.
I missed something. Aren't worms pretty much free, what with the
reproducing and all?
Fran Higham
Hmm. Not sure how to answer this one. I don't know if you are asking about
using the right worms for the job (and hence why I shouldn't waste those
'good ones') or whether you are asking about why I wouldn't use worms in a
pit toilet. I'll run with the former but if I've misunderstood your
question then I apologise in advance.
Garden worms are free but the worms you would use in a pit will have to be
bought or bred up, either way they cost you in either time or effort or
money (although admittedly not a lot of each).
Janet says the UK ones that would suit the sort of manure climate of a pit
loo are called "brandlings" and the ones I use here are red ones but I have
forgotten the correct name of them.
There are actually lots of varieties of worms and lots of these are very job
specific. Janet mentioned earlier that she puts worms into the compost heap
after the heap has gone through the heating phase because worms hate heat.
The worms she would put in the heap would probably also suit your pit
toilet - these are more suited to dealing with a very rich source of food
than is the common old garden worm.
The thing is that one must start with a stock to build them up and depending
on conditions they may breed fast or slow. My worm farm has suffered from a
variety of woes and at the moment is very slow breeding up numbers. I'd
like to think that I'm not holding my mouth right but I know that I'm doing
something wrong but can't quite figure out what. Perhaps it is the weather
as it has been a disgusting year but who knows.......
These days I never seem to be able to get the masses of worms that I used to
and since I use every scrap of vermicompost and worm liquid that my worm
farm can produce, I will not be giving any away as freely as I once used to.
(And since I don't have a pit loo that needs an addition of worms I don't
have to worry about that either)
Hope this answers your question but I have my doubts.......
Janet Baraclough
from ernie...@bigpond.com contains these words:
> In the old days in the Scottish highlands, they didn't have toilet
> paper, catalog pages, or even corncobs so used a stick. When one went
> out to the outhouse in the dark, one had to be careful to try to pick
> up the stick by the clean end.
Wherever did you hear that? There are very few sticks available in
the bare Scottish highlands, and the few there were, were a precious
resource for driving the herds of mountain haggis.
Janet.
David Buchner
> These days I never seem to be able to get the masses of worms that I used
> to and since I use every scrap of vermicompost and worm liquid that my
> worm farm can produce, I will not be giving any away as freely as I once
> used to. (And since I don't have a pit loo that needs an addition of worms
> I don't have to worry about that either)
>
> Hope this answers your question but I have my doubts.......
No, I think it does. I hadn't considered that they might be fussy things
to grow a bunch of, or that they might just plain die off if you were to
put them in a place that didn't agree with them. I just figured worms
were one of those automatic, impossible-to-screw-up nature things.
Do I want to ask what "worm liquid" is, and how one collects it? I've
never had a worm farm.
Janet Baraclough
from buc...@wcta.net (David Buchner) contains these words:
> No, I think it does. I hadn't considered that they might be fussy things
> to grow a bunch of, or that they might just plain die off if you were to
> put them in a place that didn't agree with them. I just figured worms
> were one of those automatic, impossible-to-screw-up nature things.
Effective worm-farms (as a compost method) are quite
temperature-dependent, but your proposed usage should be a steady
temperature within their hot and cold tolerance. A pot of starter
fishing-worms costs a pound sterling here; I would just empty one in
and leave them alone to see what happens. Either they die..you've not
lost much; or they breed, thrive, digest the pit contents for you,
and you can start wondering how to harvest and market your new
fishing-worm business....life is full of problems... :-)
Janet.
Fran Higham
> > vermicompost and worm liquid that my
> > worm farm can produce,
> Do I want to ask what "worm liquid" is, and how one collects it? I've
> never had a worm farm.
I enjoy my worm farm, although a stampede is not a very pretty sight! It's
a case of head for the hills - oops sorry - caught there in a flight of
fancy.
Many of our local Councils (the local government bodies which are
responsible for collecting garbage, running rubbish tips, public health at a
local level etc etc.) are now strongly recommending them or even selling
them at subsidised prices. They are taking this initiative in an effort to
get people to be more aware of the garbage they are generating and to either
recycle, make compost or to use the worm farms. The issue of land fill and
the way we pollute our environment is becoming a big issue here even though
we have such a small population in comparison to yours.
The easiest way to describe it is to show you a picture:
http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~cooworms/page8.html
This is the worm farm I have. The bottom chamber, which has a tap at the
front of it, is where the worm liquid collects. It is as simple as putting
a watering can under the tap and turning the tap. the worm liquid is them
diluted with water until the mixture is a moderate brown colour and poured
over the plant's vegetation or around the roots of the plants. Wonderful
stuff, the worm liquid. Plants thrive on it and it imroves the soil while
doing it.
Another site which has some interesting stuff on worms is
http://www.squirmy-worms.com/
Hope that helps.
baf...@att.net
Harry K
> Any opinions? I've read in a number of places, including the packaging
> of those "compost starter" potions, that lime is worse than useless,
> because it actually kills off the microorganisms that ought to be
> breaking stuff down. But I've still heard from a few people who insist
> that lime [somehow] "breaks down wastes."
>
> What do you think? Has anybody experienced anything that accelerated the
> decomposition and seriously reduced the volume of stuff in the bottom of
> that pit? I really hate digging holes in this "soil" I have here.
>