Storm and Lightning damage in the country
Gary W. Sandvik
I love living out in the country. It seems when something happens lately it
is major. We had a direct hit at the pig on the pole or at least close to
it. All of our feed comes from that pig but is fed underground from there.
Took out a lot of electronic equipment. Just got my server back, along with
one of the workstations. I've been checking out everthing I can.
The A/C made some strange noises while it was running when we were hit.
Heck the Hunter fan in the living room even made some humming noises. Well
pump seems to run ok. Anything that was running at the time seems to be the
damaged equipment.
All my UPS alarmed, two input circuits failed. Will have to replace these
for sure. LOst our new HDTV big screen. My agent is really going to love
this storm claim. Thankfully we do have replacement value. That HDTV was
big $$$$$. Heck the computer equipment that was damaged would buy another
HDTV.
I really don't like the hassle. I've checked as much as possible for now.
But I know from experience that we will have on going problems with
failures as time goes. No matter how well it is protected. Least resistance
path.
I've got a lot of protection equipment that will need replacement. I only
lost one phoneset. BUt lost a modem in the server. Thankfully the optic
coupler opened. Hopefully nothing else in the server is damaged.
I'm praying that nothing else shows up. I need to check the fencer but it
is still wet outside. I'll check that stuff with the barn equipment.
At least we will boost the local economy a little in the next few weeks.
I'm really upset with everything that has happened, But thankful nobody or
animals were hurt.
--
Regards and God speed,
Gary g...@mtco.com
The magic is in the magician not the wand!
Steve Cothran
wrote:
>I've got a lot of protection equipment that will need replacement. I only
>lost one phoneset. BUt lost a modem in the server. Thankfully the optic
>coupler opened. Hopefully nothing else in the server is damaged.
It is for this reason that I _WILL NOT_ have an internal modem.
Externals are so cheap, it's not worth risking the $$ motherboard. It
is also for that reason I will not use the "all-in-one" motherboards
in my computers. Sometimes the above-mentioned modem gets zapped and
takes out the serial port in the computer. $19 for a new serial card,
replace the dirty modem with a clean one, and go.
I have the same problem as you...about 1 to 10 subscribers per mile on
our lines. Our electronic goodies serve as lightning arrestors for the
electric company.
>
>I'm praying that nothing else shows up. I need to check the fencer but it
>is still wet outside. I'll check that stuff with the barn equipment.
I got a near-direct or direct hit on the service entrance a few years
ago. There was a kaboom like a concussion grenade in the house and the
whole place smelled like ozone. The meter base and main breaker for
the house were obliterated. Had I not been home with a 25 lb. fire
extinguisher the whole place would have burned down. Strangely, the
only thing I lost was all the light dimmers and motion-floodlights.
And a good pair of Fruit Of The Looms.
Lightning is funny stuff...you never know what it's gonna do. It also
seems to know when you're young and broke. In my 20's, my then-wife
and I barely made the bills and our stereo and tv both got hit one
summer.
Larry Caldwell
writes:
> I love living out in the country. It seems when something happens lately it
> is major. We had a direct hit at the pig on the pole or at least close to
> it. All of our feed comes from that pig but is fed underground from there.
> Took out a lot of electronic equipment. Just got my server back, along with
> one of the workstations. I've been checking out everthing I can.
That's why, when it's thunder storm time, I shut everything down and
unplug the surge strips. I flip the breakers on everything but the
lighting circuits. I figure light bulbs are cheap. Then I read a book
or listen to a battery powered radio until the storm passes.
Nothing is going to save the electronics if the house takes a direct hit,
but I can just disconnect from the power lines for a few hours with no
particular hassle.
With a simple electric motor/generator setup you can provide totally
isolated power to your electronics. Modern switching power supplies are
very forgiving of odd frequencies and wave forms, so just run a cheap
brushless 110 volt alternator off of a 1.5 or 2 hp. 3450 rpm motor. If
you scrounge a used alternator and a Harbor Freight electric motor, you
should be able to do the whole setup for $200.
Steve Dunlop
I have seen light bulbs explode (the glass, folks,
not just the filament) from a close hit.
But it's rare. Better electronics has tranzorbs
and other low-impedance shunts to ground that
take the brunt of the lightning hits. But then,
I figure electronics of any kind are a transitory
sort of thing that only last for so long under the
best of circumstances.
I think it's been 10 years since we actually lost
any equipment to lightning.
-
Steve
"Gary W. Sandvik" <g...@mtco.com> wrote in message
news:QYY09.23276$A%3.28...@ord-read.news.verio.net...
Steve Cothran
<dun...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>I think it's been 10 years since we actually lost
>any equipment to lightning.
>
Until now. You just invited the Karma Gods over when you posted that.
They read misc.rural, you know.
Steve Dunlop
that sort of thinking, called Lord of Light.
He envisioned a world full of pray-o-mats where people
would deposit coins in order to relieve their karmic burdens.
The story's protagonist called upon his followers to
fill the pray-o-mats around the country with slugs (fake coins),
using his account number, and was thus able to run up the
highest karmic balance known.
The same novel also contains the infamously indecisive
prayer for the dead.
--
Steve
"Steve Cothran" <fa...@fake.com> wrote in message
news:3d44a909...@news.dtccom.net...
JMartin
the electric meter and protects your house from power line hits. It
won't work for cable or phone line hits, but at least you won't lose
everything that was running!
Our one farm house is a lightining rod. It has been hit at least
three times that I know of, because everything had to be replaced. I
put the surge protector out there and haven't had to replace anything
since.
Jena
Gordon Couger
"Larry Caldwell" <lar...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.17ae32b42...@news.earthlink.net...
> In article <QYY09.23276$A%3.28...@ord-read.news.verio.net>, g...@mtco.com
> writes:
>
> > I love living out in the country. It seems when something happens lately
it
> > is major. We had a direct hit at the pig on the pole or at least close
to
> > it. All of our feed comes from that pig but is fed underground from
there.
> > Took out a lot of electronic equipment. Just got my server back, along
with
> > one of the workstations. I've been checking out everthing I can.
>
> That's why, when it's thunder storm time, I shut everything down and
> unplug the surge strips. I flip the breakers on everything but the
> lighting circuits. I figure light bulbs are cheap. Then I read a book
> or listen to a battery powered radio until the storm passes.
>
> Nothing is going to save the electronics if the house takes a direct hit,
> but I can just disconnect from the power lines for a few hours with no
> particular hassle.
>
steel or copper sheet properly grounded that all those wires pass through
and properly grounded lighting arrestors on all the wires the come in the
house it is supprisind how much ligting it takes to damage properly
installed gear. Broadcast radio stations can take several direct hits and
never blink.
The number one place of lighting to get in in most houses is the telephone
lines followed by the power lines unless you have a poorly installed radio
tower.
Hooking up a generator to a system with power disconnected is not sure
protection because the ground system is almost as likely to carry a lighting
discharge as the power side of the lines particularly if you have more than
one ground point on your property.
--
Gordon
Gordon Couger
Stillwater, OK
www.couger.com/gcouger
Larry Caldwell
> Hooking up a generator to a system with power disconnected is not sure
> protection because the ground system is almost as likely to carry a lighting
> discharge as the power side of the lines particularly if you have more than
> one ground point on your property.
The whole point of setting up an isolated system is complete isolation.
The generator has its own ground that is not connected in any way to the
house ground. Even the motor and generator are linked by a nonconductive
coupling.
fle...@gate.gormenghast
Larry Caldwell <lar...@teleport.com> wrote:
>That's why, when it's thunder storm time, I shut everything down and
>unplug the surge strips. I flip the breakers on everything but the
>lighting circuits. I figure light bulbs are cheap. Then I read a book
>or listen to a battery powered radio until the storm passes.
So are lightening rods actually worthwhile, and can you install them
yourself? Last time I saw one on TV, they had various different
metals, and it was described as a pro-only job. I live on the top
of a hill, and have removed most of the tall trees around the
house ....
M.
RSMEINER
Randy
RSMEINER
with a lightning strike.
Most of our stuff we could care less about but we do
unplug the computer during storms.
Randy
w_tom
from cloud to earth. Only then will electricity in that circuit
damage electronics. If the circuit to earth is through an applicance,
then we call it surge damage.
If lightning is earthed before it can enter the building, then no
damage. Others have noted wires entering the building through a
metallic conduit (pipe). Demonstrated (by JMartin) was 'whole house'
surge protection so that direct strikes cause no damage.
Phone lines have 'whole house' surge protectors, installed free by
the telco, that earth a surge before it can enter the building. That
earthing wire is less than 10 feet and connects to central earth
ground. All incoming utilities must first be earthed to the same
ground before entering the building. Connection to that earthing is
either by direct wire or through a surge protector.
A surge protector does does not stop or absorb a surge. It simply
shunts (distributes, diverts, connects) a surge from one wire to all
others. One poster unplugs all his plug-in surge protectors - because
they are not properly located nor do they even claim to provide
protection from destructive surges. So why did he purchase them if
they are not effective from the typical source of surge damage?
A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Better
surge protection means enhancing earth ground. Ineffective surge
protectors don't claim protection from common mode surges (ie.
lightning). Therefore ineffective surge protectors are easily
identified. No dedicated connection to earth AND no mention of
critical earthing. Also they must be unplugged to protect them from
surge damage.
Since telephone lines and CATV wires already have 'whole house'
protection, then they are not the source of most surges. Many simply
claim a surge entered on the phone line, damaged a modem, then
stopped. How does electricity work? Where is the complete circuit?
Clearly not how surge damage occurs.
Use a digital multimeter to measure for continuity from center AC
electric prong to various IC pins on the modem. Notice the direct
connection. Same direct connection does not exist from phone line to
those big ICs. The modem has a direct connect to AC but no direct
connection to phone line. Since many did not know about that
connection, then they had only 'assumed' a surge came in on the phone
line. IOW they only speculated because they did not actually and
first learn before they declared, "lightning on a phone line damaged
my modem". They use 'junk science' to make conclusions.
Most surges strike the higher wires on the pole and enter the house
on one wire that does not have 'whole house' surge protection - AC
electric. Remember, that direct connection from AC prong to modem IC?
If the computer is connected to an adjacent, plug-in surge protector
and not even powered, we now have a complete surge destructive
circuit. Incoming on AC, shunted to ground wire by adjacent, plug-in
protector, to modem IC pins, then outgoing on phone lines to earth
ground. This is how modems, fax machines, and portable phone base
stations are typically damaged. Incoming on AC. Outgoing on phone
line.
This modem damage circuit is also how external modems are damaged.
Except that the same circuit also may damage the computer's serial
port. AC electric, through serial port, into external modem, then
outgoing on phone line to earth ground. External modems don't create
better protection - except when using junk science.
Had the homeowner installed 'whole house' surge protection on AC
mains, then lightning would have been earthed before it found earth
ground through phone line appliances. Broadcast stations have used
'whole house' protection techniques for more than 50 years. They
suffer direct strikes without interruption because they, too, earth a
surge before it can enter the building.
What makes an air terminal (lightning rod) effective? Earth ground.
Air terminals and 'whole house' surge protection 'systems' do the
same thing. They earth a surge before that surge can find a
destructive path to earth ground. What is the most critical 'system'
component? Earth ground. How does one make an air terminal or surge
protector more effective? Enhance the earth ground system.
Surge protection is earth ground - not a surge protector. A surge
protector is only as effective as its earth ground. So why do plug-in
surge protectors fail to mention earthing? They are not selling
effective surge protection. A surge protector can be ineffective for
any one of four reasons: 1) too close to transistors, 2) too far from
earth ground, 3) too expensive to only protect one appliance, and 4)
too undersized to be effective. Most plug-in protectors violate all
four characteristics.
How much was that plug-in surge protector? $20? $50 to not even
effectively protect one appliance. Minimal 'whole house' protectors
for AC electric cost about $1 per protected appliance - for superior
protection. Why would anyone buy plug-in surge protectors that cost 20
or 50 times more money? Effective surge protectors must shunt a surge
direct to earth (distance to earth is critical) AND remain fully
functional for the next surge. Again, this is found in properly sized
'whole house' protectors. A plug-in surge protectors at 345 joules is
undersized - meaning ineffective.
Just some rambling thoughts on surge protection that was proven and
demonstrated effective since the 1930s. This is not rocket science.
But with so many advocating myths about surge protection, then most of
what was known back then is replaced by 'half truths' sold on retail
shelves by grossly overpriced, undersized, overhyped, ineffective,
plug-in surge protectors. One sentence really summarizes everything
above. A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
fa...@fake.com (Steve Cothran) wrote in message news:<3d44606...@news.dtccom.net>...
> ...
icediver
with a short path (less than ten feet) to ground can help in lightning
strikes. Couple this with point-of-use plug-in surge protectors located
around the house, and you have double protection. Lightning is bizarre
and there are no guarantees in any strike, but aside from unplugging
everything during a storm, this is the next best alternative. Also,
if using plug-in protectors, be sure to plug the telephone wires in too,
as the surge through the phone line is what will fry a computer modem.
rsme...@aol.com (RSMEINER) wrote in message news:<20020729062307...@mb-ml.aol.com>...
tiberius
I've often wondered about what happened to the practice of installing
lightning rods in "safe" places to protect buildings, equipment, and
lives? In my youth, it was considered more or less a cure-all, now the
practice seems to have fallen out of favor. Does anyone know
why?-Tiberius
BD
and... Guess what.. They still recommend unplugging everything during a
storm.
PS. I was once hit by lightning while inside the house.
I've touched electric-fences with my head a few times, and this was nearly
exactly the same.
So who knows......
"tiberius" <jtle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Gordon Couger
Then you have the problem of lighting in the other wiring and ground making
a transformer with the new wiring and ground if the wires run parallel or
loop over each other.
Consider this lighting can kill you if you are standing on the ground with
your feet spread apart and spare the fellow next to you with his feet to
gather becase the difference in voltage between the feet that are apart is a
great deal more tan if they are togeater. You are dealing with very large
currents and voltages. Two wires running side by side a few feet and not
grounded at the same point can generate several thousand volts. On a
ordinary day there can be 300 volts difference in you head and your feet
just from static electricity. There is not enough current to measure it very
easily but in a thunder storm the voltage and current can become enormous.
If you want a protected system get an engineer that knows how to do it. I
can refer you to a couple that build broadcast stations that take direct
strikes and keep on going. Putting in a second set of wiring without fixing
the first is not going to solve the problem unless you build a new building
that address all the issues to mitigate lightning strikes.
You can reduce the risk at your location but it is unlikely you can lighting
proof it after construction.
Gary W. Sandvik
I agree with some of your presentation. My choice for individual
surge protection is for small transients. Yes earthing is important. I
have checked my earth group coupling. Even had the power company out
to check the transformer and circuits. OK! We are not sure as to
where the hit was. But to damn close for me, considering the damage.
We have been here for two years with a lot of storms and no damage
until now. In speaking with neighbors, "lot of storms with a few
outages, little damage mostly trees".
I think we will be looking into putting a whole house system in. I
still feel if conditions are right damage can occur at anytime. It
still depends on where you'r hit, the magnitude and environment
conditions.
Thanks for the input.
Gary
Woodswun
>Hi,
>
>I love living out in the country. It seems when something happens lately it
>is major. We had a direct hit at the pig on the pole or at least close to
>it. All of our feed comes from that pig but is fed underground from there.
>Took out a lot of electronic equipment. Just got my server back, along with
>one of the workstations. I've been checking out everthing I can.
<snip>
We keep an eye out on the weather radar and unplug everything of importance
when a large cell is imminent. Nothing will protect you fully from a direct
strike.
Woods
Woodswun
Do you really want the quickest path for electricity between the ground and
the cloud to be attached to the side of your house?
Woods
BD
Rods don't attract lightning.. They just happen to be there, like your
house...
So if a rod just happens to be in the direct path, why not let the lightning
go thru it, vs the wiring?...
Not that I "put much stock" in the things... If lightning were going to
strike one end of your house without a rod, it'd most likely still strike
that end if you did have one...
"Woodswun" <wood...@hotmail.1V05P41V1.com> wrote in message
news:Q8k19.45257
BD
"BD" <bo...@pobox.com> wrote in message news:ulk19.327> Not that I "put much
w_tom
located in a 'hot spot', then once every two years will
provide plenty of opportunity to experiment.
Most trees (well in excess of 90%) suffer direct strikes
without any appreciable indication of damage.
Just a few numbers to better appreciate your risks.
Appliances typically are rated to withstand small
transients. For example, a computer ATX power supply must
withstand about 1000 volts differential mode transients and
2000 volts common mode. If individual surge protectors
provided any significant protection, then those $0.10
components would be manufactured inside the appliance.
However other appliances are more susceptible to surge
damage and cannot be protected by plug-in protectors such as
GFCI safety outlets, dimmer switches, electronic timers
switches, and X-10 remote controllers. No plug-in surge
protector can protect these devices. 'Whole house' protectors
- not plug-in protectors - is the solution for protecting
appliances at risk from small transients.
Michael
our house looks like a scarred warrior. We keep extra telephones new in the
box in the closet because they seem to be the one thing that gets fried.
All the computers are triple surge protected (used to sell industrial UPS
systems so this is my way out) and have never had a problem with them.
Phones just don't seem to be worth the trouble. View is worth the crap.
mjb
w_tom <w_t...@usa.net> wrote in message news:3D45E9D3...@usa.net...
Woodswun
>If the lightning happens to strike your house, well, why not?....
>Rods don't attract lightning.. They just happen to be there, like your
>house...
>So if a rod just happens to be in the direct path, why not let the lightning
>go thru it, vs the wiring?...
>Not that I "put much stock" in the things... If lightning were going to
>strike one end of your house without a rod, it'd most likely still strike
>that end if you did have one...
Exactly - they were designed to "draw" the lightning away from the house
proper, but they were strapped to the side of the house. So, if they do their
"job" correctly, they're still strapped to your house!. Better to put a pole
in your yard, if that type of stuff is going to work, right? (But it doesn't
work, so why bother?)
Woods
Woodswun
>That was supposed to end with "on the other end..." ;)
Knew whatcha meant. :-)
w_tom
company disconnects their $multi-million switching computer,
directly connected to overhead wires everywhere, when T-storms
approach. Emergency response operators remove all headsets
and stop taking emergency calls when thunderstorms approach.
Commercial radio stations go off air to protect their
expensive transmitter and control equipment. Cell phone
towers shut down, losing $thousand per hour in revenue only to
protect their base station. Grocery stores stop using cash
registers as thunderstorms approach. Electric power grid
control systems shutdown and stop controlling regional
electricity during T-storms.
Or Woodswum is incorrect. Those 1930 research papers from
GE and Westinghouse correctly demonstrated routine protection
from direct lightning strikes. FM and TV broadcast stations
suffer 25 direct strikes every year atop the Empire State
Building without damage. IOW surge protection is installed
and earthed to eliminate damage from direct strikes.
Apparently statements by Woodswum and RSMEINER forget that we
have be shunting direct strikes without damage for
generations.
Early 20th Century Ham radio operators learned how
protection works. Antenna leads were even disconnected and
placed inside mason jars. Still they suffered damage from
direct strikes. Then they disconnected and earthed the
antenna lead. No damage. Surge protection is about earthing
a surge - today as it was long before any of us existed.
Why did lightning rods fall out of favor? How often are
buildings actually struck? Lightning typically strikes twice
per sq kilometer per year. That's many buildings, many trees,
many grounded telephone poles, many street signs, many
conductive outcroppings, and many pipelines to be struck by
very few bolts.
icediver
> Use a digital multimeter to measure for continuity from center AC
> electric prong to various IC pins on the modem. Notice the direct
> connection. Same direct connection does not exist from phone line to
> those big ICs. The modem has a direct connect to AC but no direct
> connection to phone line. Since many did not know about that
> connection, then they had only 'assumed' a surge came in on the phone
> line. IOW they only speculated because they did not actually and
> first learn before they declared, "lightning on a phone line damaged
> my modem". They use 'junk science' to make conclusions.
Thanks for the clarification, w_tom. So when my computer modem was
fried last summer in a lightning strike, the surge entered my computer
through the AC line and completed the circuit to ground through the
phone line. I now have whole-house surge protection at my home's service
entrance plus a plug-in protector for both AC and telephone lines
at my computer. It's no guarantee in a lightning strike, but it gives
some peace of mind.
Larry Caldwell
gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net writes:
> Are you going to run a separate set of wiring to every thing in the house?
Typically just for the computers. There is no way a 1.5 hp motor is
going to drive household appliances. At most you would get perhaps 1500
watts, and that would be overtaxing the motor.
Janet Baraclough
from w_tom <w_t...@usa.net> contains these words:
> Let's assume that Woodswum was correct. Then the telephone
> company disconnects their $multi-million switching computer,
> directly connected to overhead wires everywhere, when T-storms
> approach.
Our rural telephone exchange has had two lighting strikes in the last
two years which blew every modem that was connected to it by being
plugged into a phone socket at the time, including mine, every house
along our line, and hundreds of others. Since then, just as Woodswun
does, careful people here don't leave their modem plugged into the phone
line during a thunder storm, or when they go away.
Several times a year we lose power during storms because of strikes
somewhere on the system, or other storm damage, and some of these are
long outages..a week isn't uncommon in more remote areas. So yes, every
business has to be able to cope without. The emergency services use
their own shared radio transmitter system so are independent of phone
and power outages.
Janet.
w_tom
surge protection. How do you triple earth?
If surges are damaging telephones, than surges are entering
the house - a bad thing. For cost of 3 plug-in surge
protectors, you could be earthing the surge before it enters
the house - and stop replacing telephones. If surges are
entering the house, then what else is exposed? Do your GFCIs,
necessary for human safety, still work?
I have run red lights often and only suffered a few scrapped
bumpers. Since bumpers are so easily replaceable, then I can
still run red lights. Maybe it is better to use replacement
phone money to shunt surges before they enter your house.
Industrial UPSes provide surge protection because they are
properly earthed - do same as 'whole house' surge protection
'systems'.
w_tom
surge protection? Notice that the telephone Central Office
$multi-million computer withstood that same surge without
damage. How do you know? Was the entire town without phone
service for two or three days? Every modem was blown because
basic surge protection was not installed. It is routine to
suffer direct strikes without damage. The technology is so
well proven that surge damage is directly traceable to human
failure.
Unplugging is never as reliable as a surge protection
'system'. The only way unplugging could be as reliable is if
one never used the modem. And since effective surge
protection is so inexpensive - even less than the grossly
overpriced plug-in protection - then there is no reason to
avoid 'whole house' surge protection. Those modems were
damaged as a result of human failure.
Gordon
<wood...@hotmail.1V05P41V1.com> writes
>
>Do you really want the quickest path for electricity between the ground and
>the cloud to be attached to the side of your house?
>
'conductors' don't usually conduct the lightning, they reduce the high
point of the building to ground potential by draining away the charge
which builds up on prominent points when an electrical storm is
happening.
Thus they make it a less likely target.
--
Gordon
Gary W. Sandvik
> Surge damage typically occurs once every eight years. If
> located in a 'hot spot', then once every two years will
> provide plenty of opportunity to experiment.
>
> Most trees (well in excess of 90%) suffer direct strikes
> without any appreciable indication of damage.
>
> Just a few numbers to better appreciate your risks.
>
> Appliances typically are rated to withstand small
> transients. For example, a computer ATX power supply must
> withstand about 1000 volts differential mode transients and
> 2000 volts common mode. If individual surge protectors
> provided any significant protection, then those $0.10
> components would be manufactured inside the appliance.
>
> However other appliances are more susceptible to surge
> damage and cannot be protected by plug-in protectors such as
> GFCI safety outlets, dimmer switches, electronic timers
> switches, and X-10 remote controllers. No plug-in surge
> protector can protect these devices. 'Whole house' protectors
> - not plug-in protectors - is the solution for protecting
> appliances at risk from small transients.
>
Hi,
I think you are not getting the point I was implying. The transients
in my case are large induction induced. Be it from, power equipment,
A/C or whatever. Let alone RFI! I am looking into a whole house
system. And yes, we are re-checking the earthing on the house and
other locations within our realm.
Most of my experience with system errors(electronic) has shown that
most of the problems come from EMI/RFI. Therefore a good surge/filter
does the job for which it is intended. I did not place them to
protect for lightning. Imagine the size of the transorb or MOV. We
would need a crystal system to take care of the energy for a direct
hit if it could not be shunted to ground.
I do appreciate the good information that was presented. But my
protection were for the above stated reasons. In speaking with our
insurance representative, we can get some discount for a protection
system since we do have a lot of local storms that DO produce damage.
The recent storms have a lot of local damage. Thankfully no one was
hurt!
As for the UPS, yes they are used primarily for brownout situations
with filtering for everday EMI/RFI problems. In scoping the power
lines I can see some line noise. Yes, it was scoped with an
independent/isolated system. I've thought of using a data logger line
monitor but I really don't think that is necessary. I know there is
interference, so filtering is done to minimize it.
BTW, We have a high tensions system just 1/8 mile from us. You should
see the hits on the grid protection. WOW! Our signals for various
devices seem to be inhibited by the distribution system. But some of
the interference is not since the source can come from reflection.
Again, thanks!
--
Regards and God Speed,
Gary g...@mtco.com
The magic is in the magician not the wand!
w_tom
MOV sold in Radio Shack. It shunts something like 4500 amps!
Why? Surge protectors don't absorb surges. They shunt. It
takes very little to shunt direct surges. BUT that Radio
Shack MOV is equivalent to what is found in plug-in surge
protectors - too small. Effective 'whole house' surge
protectors start at about 1000 joules. Plug-in surge
protectors, to be equivalent, are about 3000 joules.
Second, if power equipment such as A/C or refrigerator were
creating the surges as implied, then we all would be trooping
to hardware stores to replace appliances far more susceptible
to surges, such as dimmer switches, X-10 controllers,
electronic timer switches, etc. Those inductive appliances
don't create surges. At best they only create noise. And if
those appliances were a problem, then surge protection must be
installed in the source of the transient - not on every other
electronic device.
Furthermore, if those inductive appliances were creating
daily surges, then MOV based surge protectors would be toasted
in weeks or a few months. Look a the life expectancy charts
for MOVs. Those plug-in surge protectors are typically
undersized meaning that a few surges will degrade them. Surge
protectors are installed for the surge that typically occurs
once every eight years. Therefore the threshold or
let-through voltage is set at 330 volts or 400 volts (see the
box) - to completely ignore transients from inductive
appliances.
Noted previously is how large a transient must be to create
damage. Noise from inductive appliances does not even come
close. But if inductive appliances created 330 volt
transients, then those appliances must be removed immediately
as a threat to human safety.
In short, inductive appliances do not create the transients
so promoted by urban myths. If they did, you would be
replacing your dimmer switch, again, today.
Third, another located close to high voltage distribution
wires installed wire coils on his fence connected to
fluorescent lamps. He had backyard lights every night - until
the utility decided he was stealing electricity.
w_tom
discharging air. ESE has been roundly discredited if only
because they cannot prove their claims. Even worse, they
don't even try! Since the NFPA rejected the ESE submission
for Article 781, Hearly Bros have sued the non-profit NFPA in
an effort to bankrupt this public interest standards group.
Anyone advocating 'discharging air' should be familiar with
these current events and the science.
Air terminals provide lightning with an electrically shorter
path to earth. An air terminal is as effective as its earth
ground. That is what they do - earth lightning. Lightning
has already established where the electric circuit starts and
ends. It is simply a question of building a conductive path
through air and earth. Should it find the air terminal, then
it will prefer that path over any other path in the 'cone of
protection' underneath the air terminal. This cone of
protection is defined numerically in professional papers.
Lightning is not capricious. It is statistically predictable.
Air terminals (lightning rods) don't discharge the air.
They conduct electricity via safer paths defined by humans.
Ignore this nonsense on ESE and air discharging. For further
information, review the so many posts at
www.lightningsafety.com by Dr Abdul Mousa of Columbia
Hydro(?) - or his IEEE paper "The applicability of Lightning
Elimination Devices to Substations and Power Lines" on 4 Oct
1998 IEEE Transactions on Power Delivery. In his abstract
(first paragraph):
> This paper also shows that lightning elimination devices
> would *not* beneift pwoer lines nor substations.
Reference to experts provided in direct response to urban
myths about 'discharging the air'. Who keeps spreading these
myths besides the Hearly Bros?
Woodswun
>w_tom wrote:
>
>> Surge damage typically occurs once every eight years. If
>> located in a 'hot spot', then once every two years will
>> provide plenty of opportunity to experiment.
>>
>> Most trees (well in excess of 90%) suffer direct strikes
>> without any appreciable indication of damage.
>>
>> Just a few numbers to better appreciate your risks.
>>
>> Appliances typically are rated to withstand small
>> transients. For example, a computer ATX power supply must
>> withstand about 1000 volts differential mode transients and
>> 2000 volts common mode. If individual surge protectors
>> provided any significant protection, then those $0.10
>> components would be manufactured inside the appliance.
>>
>> However other appliances are more susceptible to surge
>> damage and cannot be protected by plug-in protectors such as
>> GFCI safety outlets, dimmer switches, electronic timers
>> switches, and X-10 remote controllers. No plug-in surge
>> protector can protect these devices. 'Whole house' protectors
>> - not plug-in protectors - is the solution for protecting
>> appliances at risk from small transients.
>>
>Hi,
>
>I think you are not getting the point I was implying.
I begin to think it's deliberate so that he can argue with someone - a troll.
Woods
icediver
has recently launched their lightning protection plan, called
SureStop. Alliant installs a whole-house surge protector, wired
to the electric meter, and also provides customers with two plug-in
point-of-use power strips. There is a $50 installation fee, and
then a $9 monthly fee for the protection, billed separately from
your electric bill.
Thus, the electric company seems to support what w_tom says, and
I do to. A whole-house surge protector can be purchased for about
$40 and easily wired into the home's service entrance, which is
what I did. I also purchased point-of-use power strips (Belkin
SurgeMasters, rated at 2058 Joules), thereby obviating Alliant's
plan. No guarantees, but whole-house surge protectors should be in
every home, IMHO.
w_tom <w_t...@usa.net> wrote in message news:<3D46A584...@usa.net>...
Gary W. Sandvik
I am talking about simple transient or noise suppression. I'm not
talking about large signal component. I 'm speaking about the small
signal EMI/RFI that can cause you problems with electronic equipment.
Be a PC that gets a random re-boot or a possible transient that can
cause a trigger somewhere in a circuit.
You have this thing with every piece of transient is going to bang
that filter or surge. Get real here! If you feel that the small motor
that generates a transient won't cause a problem then fine. Don't
protect from it. I've used packaged systems and designed my own
filters. I have used noise generators to test the inputs and outputs
of each. I can document the difference but feel it wouldn't matter to
you at this point.
If you would go back and read my responses. You would find that I did
not imply nor referenced that a surge protector was used to protect
from lightning. Yes, large transients from inductive sources can
cause problems with electronic equipment. Now the definition of the
problem would depend on the type of electronic equipment. Sure if the
transient is large enough something is going to be damaged if it is
not shunted to ground or the energy absorbed. If the device was a PC
for example then could/would have a possible interference with the
flow of the system program by a transient. I did not state physical
damage at this point. If the transient is large enough and not
protected from the same then yes <<<DAMAGED>>>. Be it the surge
system or the piece of equipment.
w-tom, get real. I think your intentions are good but don't correct me
with your statements. Especially when they are for large signal when
I'm talking small signal. Yes, damage can occur from the large
inductor produced signal. Now we must define what damage is. Are we
speaking damage to the physical equipment and operation or damage to
the protection device? That depends on the type of protection we
select for that environment. If the intended protection is for signal
suppression then the device will be designed to work with the signal
energy. Now if the protection equipment is to suppress large signal
energy, then said device should be designed to first either shunt the
signal to earth or to be able to transduce the energy. But if the
transient is small signal EMI/RFI then the filtering needs to
suppress/block the undesired signal from desired signal(pass).
Yes, inductive systems do produce transients. What damage would there
be to a light dimmer? Not much from that transient unless large
enough to damage the control circuits. But the same transient could
cause problems with a smart one. As you pointed to a X10 module. Look
at the short term transient problems that can cause a trigger problem
with the module. Especially if it is a smart unit with a PIC and the
filter was not designed to suppress the signal.
I think the big problem here is in semantics. I originally spoke about
the lightning hitting the power inputs. And stated that the
surge/filters were damaged. No where did I state these were in place
to inhibit lightning. But to suppress transient signals, EMI/RFI.
This is a problem, intermittently but still a problem. The damage
here to me can mean physical at times. Other times it is an
inconveniece. Who wants to be running a compiler on a system and get
a glitch. I don't! As for urban myth, no myth too me. I've had such
problems. Noted from storage units that were running at the time of a
running program. Enough said!
w_tom
about noise filters whereas my posts were about the original
point of this thread - surge protectors and lightning. They
are different solutions for different problems... except ...
Shunt mode surge protection can be enhanced by series mode
surge protectors. These are low pass filters that both
enhance surge protection AND provide filtering on all AC lines
except the safety ground. Such devices are best for
facilities that may require EMI/RFI filtering - such as a
sound studio or an exotic home theater system. Series mode
devices may also be desirable in a server farm that suffers
numerous direct strikes and/or cannot further enhance their
earthing to address surge problems.
Noise is rarely a problem in any residential building.
Plug-in surge protectors can even hinder the operation of X-10
controllers. X-10 failure to operate is more a surge
protector (et al) created problem than a noise problem. X-10s
ignore noise transients. But plug-in surge protectors often
quash X-10 signals.
Noise should be eliminated at the source. Traditional MOV
based surge protectors, of course, do nothing for noise
reduction and would be quickly made useless if noise was so
large as to become surges. However semiconductor based surge
protector devices may have threshold voltages set lower so
that they also shunt large noise spikes as well as surges -
without any degradation. But then these are specialty devices
beyond the original topic which was surge protection and
lightning.
w_tom
should appreciate the limits of their program. First they
install surge protectors that require a 'short to earth'
connection. However that earthing is your responsibility.
Traditionally, utilities don't even verify that your earthing
exists. That earthing is necessary for both transistor safety
AND for human safety. If renting their surge protector, then
a household safety earth ground should be enhanced to meet or
exceed post 1990 NEC earthing requirements. Furthermore, that
connection from surge protector (behind the meter) to earth
ground should be short (less than 10 feet), direct (no sharp
bends or splices and not through metallic conduit), and
independent (should not be bundled with any other wires and
should not connect to any other utility earth ground until
they all meet at central earth ground). Also the earth ground
rod must be in conductive soil. Sandy soil, for example, is
not conductive meaning that the earth ground network may need
be expanded - as defined by NEC requirements.
Second, other utilities also offer this program for less -
traditionally $5 per month. All are really expensive since a
1000 joule whole house surge protector can be purchased at
Home Depot for less than $50 - Intermatic EG240RC or Siemens
QSA2020. Better systems such as Square D's SDSB1175C (not
to be confused with SDSA1175):
http://www.squared.com/us/squared/corporate_info.nsf/unid/ECA90110AB7098CA85256A3A007091D7/$file/productsa2zFrameset.htm
A longer list of other possible solutions can be provided as
interest demands.
The bottom line is that surge damage is so easily avoided as
to be directly traceable to human failure.
Gary W. Sandvik
> t
Hi,
w_tom, we are finally on the same page! I started this thread and was
not stating that the surge suppression was for lighting. Just that I
did have failures of the devices. The UPS systems did trigger but
they too failed. Your reply to me in this thread were relative to
large signal while mine was for small. Yes, Surge protection itself
is not enough. For the signal suppression a good filter must be used
along with a good suppression design. Yes noise should be eliminated
at the source. But this is not always feasible. You should be out in
the country and see some of the noise generators we have. Be it
welders, pumps or whatever. Some of the line noise I've seen would be
nice to have when showing students the techniques for noise
suppression.
Especially when the signals are random and spurious. I've seen some
signal carried by the noise that we weren't able to define the
source. But noise is just that, a signal that comes from anything
that is poorly designed or possibly on the downhill to failure.
As to the surge suppressors causing problems with certain X-10
modules, agreed. It would depend on the module and its' function. And
given the path for the signal from and to the X-10. If suppression
design is for transient then the signal would be attenuated. If
EMI/RFI then of course you are going to have some major problems.
No, I disagree with one point in your last paragraph. The discussion
was for the damage to equipment created by the lightning introduced
to the power that damaged said equipment along with the surge
suppression devices/filters. Those devices were in place to take care
of short term transients and noise (EMI/RFI). My intention! Possibly
your news server didn't give you my original post.
The thread has been very interesting and the points you presented are
valid for the means you supplied. It is just that I feel that
surge/signal suppression is needed for certain electronic equipment,
be it instrumentation, entertainment or workstations. In my realm I
need this and use it.
Agreed, not everyone will need to filter their power source but when
necessary it should be done.
Many years ago when I was in college, I worked for a major newspaper.
I maintained the electronic systems for them. Be it the mainframes or
the color control systems. You talk about noise. Really a lot of
large amplitude noise. Suppression and filtering was necessary for
the computer equipment. Best method was large UPS. Very simple but
efficient. Heck the mailroom equipment had to be supplied with its'
own supply source because the area equipment would cause control
problems within the press controls. Noise, noise and more noise! A
lot of grimlins in that place. I was really glad to leave that place.
It was a nightmare at times to try an get rid of the noise.
I could go on about noise in the work place. Try and perform an
experiment while a radio station is on top of you! Talk about noise
generation of large signal noise,enough said. At our lab this was a
major problem.
w_tom
First was a residence that apparently shared power with a
major water pump. In reality, he did not have residential
power. Spikes later identified on the AC mains exceeded 400
volts causing plug-in surge protectors (any MOV based surge
protector) to fail quickly.
Second was a retail store that suffered repeated retail
sales computer system failures. Using a Dranetz, they
identified surges on 120 VC at the surge protector that were
on the order of 500 volts. IOW AC line transients were so
often and so extreme that the plug-in surge protectors, rated
at 330 volts, had degraded to at least 500 volts.
Both problems should have been solved, immediately, by the
power utility. However semiconductor based 'whole house'
surge protectors do exist, albeit, at higher prices. These
avalanche diode based units will not degrade like MOVs - a
good temporary solution when the utility drags its feet.
Gary W. Sandvik
> Two lessons from previous and unique failures.
>
> First was a residence that apparently shared power with a
> major water pump. In reality, he did not have residential
> power. Spikes later identified on the AC mains exceeded 400
> volts causing plug-in surge protectors (any MOV based surge
> protector) to fail quickly.
>
> Second was a retail store that suffered repeated retail
> sales computer system failures. Using a Dranetz, they
> identified surges on 120 VC at the surge protector that were
> on the order of 500 volts. IOW AC line transients were so
> often and so extreme that the plug-in surge protectors, rated
> at 330 volts, had degraded to at least 500 volts.
>
> Both problems should have been solved, immediately, by the
> power utility. However semiconductor based 'whole house'
> surge protectors do exist, albeit, at higher prices. These
> avalanche diode based units will not degrade like MOVs - a
> good temporary solution when the utility drags its feet.
<large snip>
Hi,
w_tom, what kind of damages did this individual have? I agree
semiconductor based protection should be the way to go. I was
researching for prices for replacement equipment for damaged
protection equipment that I have. Sure, my primary concern now is to
protect the whole house for major signal transients. With localized
protection where needed.
My point is that a lot of advertisers tend to not spec the equipment
properly. One item in particular caught my eye. It was in an ad for a
surge/noise suppression trap. The ad flat out states it will protect
from lightning strikes. No technical specs to compare with, but feel
for the poor guy who buys the unit and thinks it will save him from
damage flat out. I think this is were a lot of the problems arise for
the typical Joe user. I had surge protection and the damn house was
hit by lightning. Why did my wiz-bang equipment fail. You %^$# people
said it would protect me from lightning. I can see how some people
would respond in this manner since the average person doesn't even
care or know whether he has ground(earth) let alone what type of
surge suppression is used. As you well know most low cost suppression
units are based on MOV. Generally a one time unit for very large
transients.
I had an electrician out this afternoon to look at a yacht I am
selling. He told me a story about a call he made to a guys home to
check out a problem yesterday. Well, the local cable guy had cut the
neutral lead to his feed. Somehow his ground rod was
interrupted/broken by the same. This guys entertainment center, all
equipment within the house that was electronic had been fried. BTW,
the home was a mobilhome! I asked him if he new the age of the home
or the manufacture. Not really! The cable company wasn't going turn
it in for insurance claim. The electrician repaired the damaged lines
but did not get into checking the circuit problems within the home.
He told the owner it should be checked into but the owner just shook
it off. Talk about a hazard waiting to happen.
BTW, just a note. I had our local utility company come out and check
the service. He opened the transformer and everything checked OK. He
checked the meter box, I do not have a blade meter since the service
is a 400A. It uses a bolt-in unit. They are trying to source a whole
house surge protection for a 400A bolt-in meter. If they cannot
source a unit. I will get a whole house unit an mount it at the
disconnect in a separate box. I've got to find my NEC so the
specifications can be met.
Again, thanks! This has been a very interesting thread.
w_tom
human safety. Met a friend just after he investigated. Since
the neutral had failed in a transformer and since the
household earth ground was compromised by humans, then the
house found earth through gas meter - until the meter gasket
failed and house exploded.
In another, all other telephones on the block rang
constantly. The power company emergency response man borrowed
Infrared vision from the fire department to find a red hot
CATV wire inside the walls - because the house used CATV and
phones throughout the neighborhood to obtain neutral / safety
ground.
The Intermatic EG240RC unit sold in Home Depot is rated for
400 amp service. So is Square D's SDSB1175C.
For most surge protectors, joules is the important
specification since that determines surge protector life
expectancy. MOV surge protectors will last for many direct
strikes, without damage, if properly sized. For example, lets
say a 345 joule plug-in unit (using only 115 joules) can
withstand three 8/20 usec surges. Then a properly sized and
located 1000 joule 'whole house' unit will withstand something
more like 400 surges. An MOV based surge protector's life
expectancy increases exponentially with an increase in joules.
Only the artform called earthing determines surge protector
effectiveness. One method of measuring earthing is from Lem
Instruments. Their application note demonstrates earthing,
how earthing is measured, and their product:
http://leminstruments.com/grounding_tutorial/html/index.shtml
See the diagram of a cell phone tower site (about 2/3rd
through the text) as an example of many good earthing
techniques and how extensive one may earth to provide even
better surge protection.
In those two failure locations, the retail store would lose
their POS equipment about once every month or so. The
residence affected by water company pump noted surge protector
failures but did not provide details, as I remember.
BD
If this's the normal you.. Well.. Be sure to remind me not to invite you to
any of my get-togethers.. ;)
3-page post after 3-page post of earth-ground discussion when ya pretty much
said everything there was to say on the subject about 5 days ago......
"w_tom" <w_t...@usa.net> wrote in message news:3D494AC2...@usa.net...
Gary W. Sandvik
> Is this some sort of class-assignment or something? ;)
> If this's the normal you.. Well.. Be sure to remind me not to invite
> you to any of my get-togethers.. ;)
>
> 3-page post after 3-page post of earth-ground discussion when ya
> pretty much said everything there was to say on the subject about 5
> days ago......
>
Hi,
BD, is it a problem continuing a topic? Since I posted the original, I
have garnished a lot of information. I've been in the electronics
field since the middle sixties in one form or the other. I've taught
at the engineering level and still get information or enlightenment
from different people. I welcome information, especially when it is
complete and exact! Sharing of on topic information within the NG and
the thread is a good thing.
If you don't want to continue to read the thread then by all means
don't. But to post a statement of your sort is rather rude. Doesn't
even come close to netiquette let alone usenet guidelines.
Enough said!
Gary W. Sandvik
Hi,
We do not have a Home Depot in the area yet. One is planned for the
Peoria area but not until fall/03. I checked the local Lowe's and all
they had was a 90A Square 'D'. I will stop by the local electric
wholesaler city desk and see if they can get one ordered for a 400
Amp service. The utility company still hasn't located a unit. I think
it is just a stop gap point for the utility company. I'm sure others
with homes that require a 400 Amp service have made the same request.
Just not a large demand for units of this size. Except in a rural or
large home settings. Someday I'll get off the damn grid and use it
only for a backup!!!!
Good URL!
BD
a day on computer-programming in a group set up for topics related to rural
living (you need to read up on "netiquette," yourself), even tho that
subject really interests me, Gary...
Wouldn't you?...
"Gary W. Sandvik" <g...@mtco.com> wrote in message >
w_tom
computer programmers don't even possess 1st year electrical
knowledge. Posted is information on how to protect all
appliances in a rural household from destructive surges.
Since so little is really known by a public that is expected
to provide their own protection, then there is much new
information to be learned by rural dwellers.
Actually, the technical information has been vastly
simplified for the benefit of layman. If you think this is a
technical paper, then you have never read a technical paper.
As accurately posted, if you don't like the information
posted for the benefits of other rural dwellers, then don't
read it.
BD
technical paper is...
So.... You sure your real name isn't Data or Mork? ;)
"w_tom" <w_t...@usa.net> wrote in message news:3D49D3DB...@usa.net...
Gary W. Sandvik
> I'd expect similar replies if I started posting 2-3 3page technical
> "papers" a day on computer-programming in a group set up for topics
> related to rural living (you need to read up on "netiquette,"
> yourself), even tho that subject really interests me, Gary...
> Wouldn't you?...
>
<snip>
Hi,
BD, if the subject was on computer programming for something relative
to misc.rural. What would the problem be with the topic. If replies
were 2-3 pages and provided a good answer on the subject matter then
that should not be a problem. You usually don't post a request for
comments and say 'only reply in one short curt paragraph'. It is not
always possible to write a short definitive reply. Unless of course
you are trying to be a smart a##.
As to the reference to netquette;
http://www.albion.com/netiquette
Real good reading! I've read it and try to adhere to the guidelines.
I do try and speak to the person as if they are standing in the same
room with me. If you felt I stepped on you then I'm sorry. But my
replies to you were not intent on hurting you.