What happened to the group?
Bob Greene
It used to be full of discussions about rural life - now all this political,
tree hugging drivel......
Is there anybody out there?
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The Rock Garden
> My server just finally picked up this group again, and what happened?
>
> It used to be full of discussions about rural life - now all this
political,
> tree hugging drivel......
>
> Is there anybody out there?
Yeah, it always gets a little twitchy this time of the year, cabin fever in
most of the northern hemisphere ya know, but it's even worse than normal
this year. Most of the regulars are sitting it out for a while, waiting for
the social misfit cross-posters to eventually wear down and go away.
In the meantime, the kill file and delete key are your friends. :-)
Skip
Skip & Christy Hensler
THE ROCK GARDEN
Newport, WA
http://www.povn.com/rock/
Jonathan Ball
> My server just finally picked up this group again, and what happened?
>
> It used to be full of discussions about rural life - now all this political,
> tree hugging drivel......
misc.rural always was in implicitly political group.
slee...@webtv.net
rgr...@pivot.net (Bob Greene)
It used to be full of discussions about rural life - now all this
political, tree hugging drivel......
Is there anybody out there?
Well,Ronny is here from beautiful,rural NE Texas where the narcissus
have been blooming for a month and the daffodils are just starting to
come up! LoL
P.S.
BTW,I have never hugged a tree;but I am real fond of some around here.
Does that mean I can't post here anymore?! :-( LoL
Tallgrass
> "Bob Greene" <rgr...@pivot.net> wrote \
>
> > My server just finally picked up this group again, and what happened?
> >
> > It used to be full of discussions about rural life - now all this
> political,
> > tree hugging drivel......
> >
> > Is there anybody out there?
>
> Yeah, it always gets a little twitchy this time of the year, cabin fever in
> most of the northern hemisphere ya know, but it's even worse than normal
> this year. Most of the regulars are sitting it out for a while, waiting for
> the social misfit cross-posters to eventually wear down and go away.
>
> In the meantime, the kill file and delete key are your friends. :-)
>
> Skip
>
here, waiting to psychoanalyze them, so some are not posting.
!!!!!!! hehe...only our hairdressers know for sure!!!
Secondly....I was bitten by a Very Big Dog last night, so have been
tormented the last two days with the worries of what to do with this
previously abused dog. Currently, I am giving him the benefit of the
doubt, and will not repeat my behavior which incited the biting
incident - the application of a choke chain collar right behind the
ears. Yowzer!!!!!...instant vicious (briefly) saint bernard.
Third...prior to yesterday, I was obsessed with trying to find this
obsolete part for my Ariens snowblower, so have been searching the web
adn sending out emails. Futile endeavors, to date, btw.
So...we be Busy!!!
Linda H.
Ann
> Bob Greene wrote:
>
>> My server just finally picked up this group again, and what happened?
>>
>> It used to be full of discussions about rural life - now all this
>> political, tree hugging drivel......
>
> misc.rural always was in implicitly political group.
As someone who first subscribed (and posted) to m.r in 1996, I agree ...
but not to the extent that it is now. When hot button topics came up,
comments have sometimes been political (e.g. "tree hugging drivel"). But
- over the 7+ years I've subscribed to the group on/off - I don't recall
another period when there have been (1) as many off-topic, cross-posted
threads or (2) so many gratuitous personal insults. I'm not complaining
for myself because I've been particpating in ngs long enough to learn
which threads I should have the good sense to avoid (like this one).
Elmo
> My server just finally picked up this group again, and what happened?
>
> It used to be full of discussions about rural life - now all this political,
> tree hugging drivel......
Most of that is cross-posted with at least one group that is more openly
political.
DJ
> Secondly....I was bitten by a Very Big Dog last night, so have been
> tormented the last two days with the worries of what to do with this
> previously abused dog.
I have some experience being bitten by VBDs; I used to train
Schutzhund dogs, and I was the guy getting bitten. Where, and how the
dog bit you can tell alot about what was running through the dog's
mind at the time; my experience is at your disposal.
> Currently, I am giving him the benefit of the
> doubt, and will not repeat my behavior which incited the biting
> incident - the application of a choke chain collar right behind the
> ears. Yowzer!!!!!...instant vicious (briefly) saint bernard.
My oldest mastiff, during her early obedience training, recieved just
such an introduction to the collar by the instructor, who felt my wife
wasn't "jerking quick enough".
My dog, however, just growled at her... that said, being growled at
by a mastiff is something you remember for a LONG time ;-).
Oh, and yes, once we tried another training method, she got her CD in
four trials (crawled away from the long down ;-), and then went on to
get her Therapy Dog title and was the joy of many bedridden people in
the hospital we visited.
Actually, I got nailed once, during a Schutzhund trial, retrieving a
Rottweiler that got up from the long down. As I slipped my fingers
through her collar, she nailed BOTH my hands quite nicely in about
half a second. Upon some questioning, I found out this particular
Rottweiler was, ahem, FIRMLY trained by her owner, and punishment for
breaking a down was usually a good smacking. Well, needless to say, I
was furious, and only my training instructor kept me from putting a
much needed beating on this offender; no, not the dog, the owner!
Schutzhund is a FUN sport; especially the bitework. The dogs LOVE it.
They always win, the badguy (me) always loses. Anyone who would hurt a
dog for something so stupid as a sport is just warming up for bigger
things later, I figure...
Anyway, if that Saint Bernard is still in that abusive household, he
has just gotten ALOT more dangerous: he has just learned that his
TEETH are valid defence weapons and NEXT time, he'll be faster to use
them; dogs learn "what works" really quickly.
He CAN be saved and rehabilitated, but until his social situation
changes, I'd treat him as a DANGEROUS DOG from this point on.
Oh! Actually, just thought of something else. Saints are "floppy
eared dogs". And floppy ears are prone to ear infections, which can be
VERY painful! That, also, might be something worth considering. Are
his ears infected, because if they are, that choke chain sent a
red-hot poker through his head when you yanked it... something worth
considering, anyway!
DJ
slee...@webtv.net
dog...@micron.net (dogsnus)
slee...@webtv.net wrote in news:29367-4010BB67-349@storefull-
2271.public.lawson.webtv.net:
have >been blooming for a month and the >daffodils are just starting to
come up! >LoL
and ice on >the dog bucket surface. Even the fish >aren't biting.
>Send some of that warmth down this >way, willya? And keep that rain to
>yourself, my backyard is still a lake from >last weekends storm.
>Terri
Ronny:
Supposed to be in the mid 60's here the next 4 days before it falls back
into the high 40's for daytime temps. A few low night temps like yours.
Certainly nothing bad like up North! But hope y'all farther South warm
up some too. :-)
We had some rain the other day and wouldn't mind getting somemore-might
help the daffodils grow better? :-)
I do have some wild ryegrass growing here and there in my yard,so that
helps too in the winter. Also have a lot of greened up henbit here and
there that will have pretty little purple blooms later on. The "experts"
say henbit is a weed! I say it's a pretty late winter/early spring
wildflower. :-)
And it wan't be that long until we have the pretty little 1 inch or less
tall spring wildflowers in the yard. :-) Their blooms aren't any wider
than an English pea;but there will be 1000's of them here and there in
the yard and a neighbors yard has many more than we do. Her front yard
will be a carpet of those wildflowers! :-) Just all sorts of colors and
stripes in those flowers. (ha)
Well,winter is still here in NE Texas-what little we've had of it this
year and it could get bad yet;but still it is just 58 days until the
first day of spring and that day is also our frost free date for around
here. :-) And your frost free date and spring will come even sooner,so
hang in there as things will soon start greening up and the fish will be
back to biting! LoL
Ronny
Larry Caldwell
Greene) says...
> My server just finally picked up this group again, and what happened?
>
> It used to be full of discussions about rural life - now all this political,
> tree hugging drivel......
>
> Is there anybody out there?
It is an election year, and politics always attracts defective
personalities. If you think it's bad now, just wait until October.
Every froot loop on usenet will be trying to take over the world.
Your killfile is your friend. Misc.rural has been pretty slow lately,
but most of the regulars are still around.
Jonathan Ball
> On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 05:08:39 +0000, Jonathan Ball wrote:
>
>>Bob Greene wrote:
>>
>>
>>>My server just finally picked up this group again, and what happened?
>>>
>>>It used to be full of discussions about rural life - now all this
>>>political, tree hugging drivel......
>>
>>misc.rural always was an implicitly political group.
>
>
> As someone who first subscribed (and posted) to m.r in 1996, I agree ...
> but not to the extent that it is now. When hot button topics came up,
> comments have sometimes been political (e.g. "tree hugging drivel"). But
> - over the 7+ years I've subscribed to the group on/off - I don't recall
> another period when there have been (1) as many off-topic, cross-posted
> threads or (2) so many gratuitous personal insults. I'm not complaining
> for myself because I've been particpating in ngs long enough to learn
> which threads I should have the good sense to avoid (like this one).
I'm not even talking about the cross-posted stuff. I'm
talking about the regular participants, who view rural
living as some kind of political expression. Although
there are non-American participants in the group, it is
predominantly an American newsgroup; and although not
all of the American participants are reflexively and
unimaginatively conservative, most are.
I don't know if you've seen any of my past references
to the article that appeared in the Atlantic Monthly a
little over two years ago, called "One Nation, Slightly
Divisible"; you can read it at
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/12/brooks.htm.
The article talks about "Red America" and "Blue
America", using the colors of the electoral maps that
showed which states went for Bush and Gore,
respectively. It is very clear that this group is
primarily occupied by people who view themselves as Red
Americans. I'm sure it galls them to no end that they
are the "Reds", when they really view themselves as the
*only* "true blue" Americans.
Regardless of which color is used to describe which
political half of the country, I thought it was funny,
and telling, that a significant part of the
conservative misc.rural American stalwarts dismissed
the whole article, largely on the grounds that they
view The Atlantic as some kind of liberal/commie rag.
Don Bruder, Boob Adkins, Fred McCall, Gene Seibel,
"Gunner", "Jeepers", Sue (John) Klausner, Matthew
Beasley, Randy Meiner, Skip Hensler and probably a few
others can't read anything more thoughtful than
Reader's Digest, which is to say, not thoughtful or
thought-provoking at all. They all march in brainless
lockstep to some weird, 19th century drumbeat.
Larry Caldwell
tallgras...@earthlink.net (Tallgrass) says...
> Secondly....I was bitten by a Very Big Dog last night, so have been
> tormented the last two days with the worries of what to do with this
> previously abused dog. Currently, I am giving him the benefit of the
> doubt, and will not repeat my behavior which incited the biting
> incident - the application of a choke chain collar right behind the
> ears. Yowzer!!!!!...instant vicious (briefly) saint bernard.
St. Bernards are one of the most likely breeds to bite. They take a lot
of socialization as puppies, and are definitely not recommended for
people who don't understand the breed. If yours was abused as a pup,
you may never be able to trust him.
John Klausner
loose dogs and damaged mailboxes....good for at least a week a year!
Those were in the "old days" when a good day might result in about 30-40
posts. She's also right that most of the "drivel" is the result of
persistent crossposting - mostly done by a very few determined
individuals. Maybe Linda (Tallgrass) can provide the psychoanalysis of
why people do this, but don't think it would be to any good purpose.
The regular posters have been pretty successful in minimizing the
"takeover" by loonies by ignoring the idiotic threads, and I think that
it's wading through the garbage that tends to lower the number of actual
content posts. I can killfile individuals, but haven't figured out how
to kill the crossposted posts.
Eventually, with any luck, they'll go away again. They'll also be back,
but such is life...!
SueK
Offbreed
> posts. I can killfile individuals, but haven't figured out how to kill
> the crossposted posts.
I don't think you can with Mozilla. Yet. (I see 1.6 is up, I'll have
to give it a try. 1.5 is a little flaky.) The newsreader function
seems to lag behind everything else in most browsers and
e-mail/newsreaders, doesn't it?
The crew over in alt.comp.freeware seem to prefer Xnews, availible at
this link:
http://www.pricelessware.org/2003/PL2003INTERNET.htm#Newsreader
They have a bunch of other good software, all thoroughly checked out
by the acf crew, much to the outrage of assorted egotistical and
greedy sorts that think they are gods gift to computer users.
Elmo
> I agree with Ann...when I started posting, the biggest "hot" topics were
> loose dogs and damaged mailboxes....good for at least a week a year!
> Those were in the "old days" when a good day might result in about 30-40
> posts. She's also right that most of the "drivel" is the result of
> persistent crossposting - mostly done by a very few determined
> individuals. Maybe Linda (Tallgrass) can provide the psychoanalysis of
> why people do this, but don't think it would be to any good purpose. The
An entertaining taxonomy of trolls can be found at:
http://alwayswrite.org/archives/2002/11/05/comment_trolls_part_deux.html
Here's an extract regarding Politically Obsessed Trolls:
Politically Obsessed Trolls. Oh, how tired and loathsome these olitically
obsessed wonks are. Yeah, you're conservative/liberal/whatever. Big
fucking deal. Must you turn a post about an in-grown toenail into some
kind of proof that your (unwavering) political views are fully justified?
You want to impress me? Start by turning your computer off, getting off
of your fucking ass and running for political office. No, wait, you're
still an asshole. Never mind.
Ann
> Ann wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 05:08:39 +0000, Jonathan Ball wrote:
>>>Bob Greene wrote:
>>>>My server just finally picked up this group again, and what happened?
>>>>It used to be full of discussions about rural life - now all this
>>>>political, tree hugging drivel......
>>>
>>>misc.rural always was an implicitly political group.
>>
>>
>> As someone who first subscribed (and posted) to m.r in 1996, I agree
>> ... but not to the extent that it is now. When hot button topics came
>> up, comments have sometimes been political (e.g. "tree hugging
>> drivel"). But - over the 7+ years I've subscribed to the group on/off
>> - I don't recall another period when there have been (1) as many
>> off-topic, cross-posted threads or (2) so many gratuitous personal
>> insults. I'm not complaining for myself because I've been particpating
>> in ngs long enough to learn which threads I should have the good sense
>> to avoid (like this one).
>
> I'm not even talking about the cross-posted stuff.
I didn't interpret your post that your were. I mentioned the
cross-posting as a difference that I noticed.
> I'm talking about
> the regular participants, who view rural living as some kind of
> political expression. Although there are non-American participants in
> the group, it is predominantly an American newsgroup; and although not
> all of the American participants are reflexively and unimaginatively
> conservative, most are.
Leaving out the modifiers (of conservative), I think that's a fair
conclusion.
>
> I don't know if you've seen any of my past references to the article
> that appeared in the Atlantic Monthly a little over two years ago,
> called "One Nation, Slightly Divisible"; you can read it at
> http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/12/brooks.htm. The article talks
> about "Red America" and "Blue America", using the colors of the
> electoral maps that showed which states went for Bush and Gore,
> respectively. It is very clear that this group is primarily occupied by
> people who view themselves as Red Americans. I'm sure it galls them to
> no end that they are the "Reds", when they really view themselves as the
> *only* "true blue" Americans.
I read ~2/3 of the article and scanned the rest. I have lived in
Harrisburg (near Franklin Co) and now live in N PA. I question whether
majority of the participants in m.r would identify themselves with the
Franklin Co. "Red Americans" described. Primarily because the author's
only mention of farm* in the article was in reference to an interviewee
who had moved to Franklin Co from a farm near Buffalo.
>
> Regardless of which color is used to describe which political half of
> the country, I thought it was funny, and telling, that a significant
> part of the conservative misc.rural American stalwarts dismissed the
> whole article, largely on the grounds that they view The Atlantic as
> some kind of liberal/commie rag. Don Bruder, Boob Adkins, Fred McCall,
> Gene Seibel, "Gunner", "Jeepers", Sue (John) Klausner, Matthew Beasley,
> Randy Meiner, Skip Hensler and probably a few others can't read anything
> more thoughtful than Reader's Digest, which is to say, not thoughtful or
> thought-provoking at all. They all march in brainless lockstep to some
> weird, 19th century drumbeat.
So what do you consider that exercise to be "proof" of? That those you
mention aren't going to read anything you suggest? They aren't going to
read anything they don't think they'll agree with politically? They
aren't going to read anything throught provoking? None/all of the
preceeding? Have you tried suggesting any article by someone like Bill
Kristol?
Jim Elbrecht
-snip-
> I can killfile individuals, but haven't figured out how
>to kill the crossposted posts.
I think nfilter will work with any Newsreader. [except probably AOL]
It can killfile by crossposts to a particular group, or to a set
number of groups.
I rarely see any of the crap on this group & I have my crosspost level
set to more than 3 groups-- and any group with 'politics' or
'religion' in their names. [I can still subscribe to
alt.politics.religion if I choose & it will still download those.]
It just acts as a server on your own computer. You set *it* to
connect to your ISP's server-- and set your newsreader to retrieve
messages from 'localhost'.
I'm not sure where you'd download it these days as it is no longer
supported, but it is Freeware so it must be out there someplace.
[I have a copy of the compressed exe file that I would send you, but
in today's climate I'd rather not encourage taking 'files from
strangers'] Search for newsproxy or nfilter. The old website was
http://www.nfilter.org, and a Googled discussion from last May
indicates that it was still up sometimes-- I can't raise it this
afternoon, though.
Jim
The Rock Garden
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!
Now *there's* one group I'm proud to be considered a member of, considering
who the gatekeeper is.
I do have to wonder how all the rest of you regulars didn't manage to make
the cut though... :-)
Skip (or S in the Reader's Digest condensed version)
Jonathan Ball
> On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:25:12 +0000, Jonathan Ball wrote:
>
[...]
>
>>I'm talking about
>>the regular participants, who view rural living as some kind of
>>political expression. Although there are non-American participants in
>>the group, it is predominantly an American newsgroup; and although not
>>all of the American participants are reflexively and unimaginatively
>>conservative, most are.
>
>
> Leaving out the modifiers (of conservative), I think that's a fair
> conclusion.
I think the inclusion of the modifiers is quite fair.
I know some thinking conservatives - there are even a
few hear - and I've known plenty of the unthinking,
reflexive kind. All the people I list below are the
latter.
This group also has some classically knee-jerk bleeding
heart liberals in it, as well as some thoughtful ones.
(My own position, if you happen to wonder, is
ardently pro-market (but not necessarily pro-business)
libertarian, with an increasing concern about the
growing dominance of the ultra-statist John Ashcroft
wing of the Republican party.)
>
>>I don't know if you've seen any of my past references to the article
>>that appeared in the Atlantic Monthly a little over two years ago,
>>called "One Nation, Slightly Divisible"; you can read it at
>>http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/12/brooks.htm. The article talks
>>about "Red America" and "Blue America", using the colors of the
>>electoral maps that showed which states went for Bush and Gore,
>>respectively. It is very clear that this group is primarily occupied by
>>people who view themselves as Red Americans. I'm sure it galls them to
>>no end that they are the "Reds", when they really view themselves as the
>>*only* "true blue" Americans.
>
>
> I read ~2/3 of the article and scanned the rest. I have lived in
> Harrisburg (near Franklin Co) and now live in N PA. I question whether
> majority of the participants in m.r would identify themselves with the
> Franklin Co. "Red Americans" described.
It may not be a majority, but there is a sizable
representation of "Red Americans" in m.r, and they tend
to dominate the group. I have long contended that
there is a huge element of truth in stereotypes. It
doesn't have to be a majority of a group; all it has to
be is a sizable, cohesive, VISIBLE minority. For
example, not everyone in Beverly Hills is loud,
frivolous, shallow, attention-seeking, and ignorant of
what's really going on; but there are more of those
than any other group, and they're extremely visible.
> Primarily because the author's
> only mention of farm* in the article was in reference to an interviewee
> who had moved to Franklin Co from a farm near Buffalo.
I think very few of the participants here are really
farmers.
>
>>Regardless of which color is used to describe which political half of
>>the country, I thought it was funny, and telling, that a significant
>>part of the conservative misc.rural American stalwarts dismissed the
>>whole article, largely on the grounds that they view The Atlantic as
>>some kind of liberal/commie rag. Don Bruder, Boob Adkins, Fred McCall,
>>Gene Seibel, "Gunner", "Jeepers", Sue (John) Klausner, Matthew Beasley,
>>Randy Meiner, Skip Hensler and probably a few others can't read anything
>>more thoughtful than Reader's Digest, which is to say, not thoughtful or
>>thought-provoking at all. They all march in brainless lockstep to some
>>weird, 19th century drumbeat.
>
>
> So what do you consider that exercise to be "proof" of? That those you
> mention aren't going to read anything you suggest?
I am more bothered that they never would have read
anything like that so far in their lives.
> They aren't going to
> read anything they don't think they'll agree with politically?
Yes. That's a big one. They stopped learning many
years ago. More to the point, they are fundamentally
hostile to the very idea of learning. They are, all of
them, anti-intellectual. Anti-intellectualism, by the
way, is definitely not limited to rural Americans only.
Richard Hofstadter wrote a classic book called
Anti-Intellectualism in American Life, published in
1963, which I have never read but seen much cited.
Unfortunately, he had in mind *only* populist
conservative anti-intellectualism, and I feel there is
every bit as much of it on the left. The whole ugly
phenomenon of political correctness is, basically,
anti-intellectualism with a shabby veneer of
intellectualism to it.
> They aren't going to read anything throught provoking?
None/all
> of the preceeding?
Most.
> Have you tried suggesting any article by someone like Bill
> Kristol?
No.
Ann
> Ann wrote:
>> Primarily because the author's
>> only mention of farm* in the article was in reference to an interviewee
>> who had moved to Franklin Co from a farm near Buffalo.
>
> I think very few of the participants here are really farmers.
I'm not. But my family farming background is part of who I am. And even
people who have never lived on a farm can have this urge to grow a garden,
feed the birds, weld something, etc. ... even when cost isn't a factor.
Anyway, I think the people in Franklin Co are, for want of a better
description, one generation further away from "the earth".
>> They aren't going to
>> read anything they don't think they'll agree with politically?
> Yes. That's a big one. They stopped learning many years ago.
For some people, politics isn't a matter of learning, it's a matter of
faith, like religion. Wish I'd saved the reference, but Imo there was an
interesting study I read about perhaps six months ago. The conclusion was
that many people don't vote their own best interests ... they vote the
best interests of the group they aspire to. Otoh, women over 55 are
credited (or blamed) for Gore's surprise win in PA.
>> Have you tried suggesting any article by someone like Bill Kristol?
>
> No.
I was sorry to see him leave ABC's Sunday AM news program. Although I
didn't agree with him politically, I did respect him. Another commentator
I seriously disagree with on some topics, but find interesting is Rollye
James, on talk radio.
Thanks for posting the link to the article. One part of it that really
"rang true" was:
"People in Franklin County may have a clear sense of what
constitutes good or evil (many people in Blue America have trouble with
the very concept of evil), but they will say that good and evil are in all
neighborhoods, as they are in all of us. People take the Scriptures
seriously but have no interest in imposing them on others. One finds
little crusader zeal in Franklin County. For one thing, people in small
towns don't want to offend people whom they'll be encountering on the
street for the next fifty years. Potentially controversial subjects are
often played down. "We would never take a stance on gun control or
abortion," Sue Hadden, the editor of the Waynesboro paper, told me."
Gene Seibel
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.
Jonathan Ball <jon...@whitehouse.not> wrote in message news:<IVbQb.23716$1e.1...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
Jonathan Ball
> "Ann" <nntp...@epix.net> wrote
>
>
>>On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:25:12 +0000, Jonathan Ball wrote:
>
>
>>>Regardless of which color is used to describe which political half of
>>>the country, I thought it was funny, and telling, that a significant
>>>part of the conservative misc.rural American stalwarts dismissed the
>>>whole article, largely on the grounds that they view The Atlantic as
>>>some kind of liberal/commie rag. Don Bruder, Boob Adkins, Fred McCall,
>>>Gene Seibel, "Gunner", "Jeepers", Sue (John) Klausner, Matthew Beasley,
>>>Randy Meiner, Skip Hensler and probably a few others can't read anything
>>>more thoughtful than Reader's Digest, which is to say, not thoughtful or
>>>thought-provoking at all. They all march in brainless lockstep to some
>>>weird, 19th century drumbeat.
>
>
>
> ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!
There's a lot to laugh off, isn't there, Skippy? You
would take some kind of perverse pride in a dishonor
like that...
Jonathan Ball
> We are who we are, not who you think we should be.
I know who and what you are.
John Klausner
couple of years, rather than months) regulars have discovered misc.rural
as a result of some of the crossposting. Not to say that they are any
more likely to crosspost, but it resulted in an accidental "stumbling"
across the newsgroup, and they decided to stay.
I've given some thought to those I consider welcome, and those I
consider _unwelcome_...it doesn't have to do with a similarity of views,
but I think rather the manner in which those views are presented. I
absolutely disagree with the views and political positions of some of
the "regulars", but still enjoy reading those views. They often provide
food for thought.
I wonder if some of it is generational (I may be prejudiced that way -
but of course, the internet is the great equalizer ... we're judged by
what we present, not by what we are, since what we are can't be seen)or
maybe there's some other common cultural factor that is expressed. I
don't know - I just know that there are some posters that are offensive
blowhards who verbally flail about the internet trying to find ???? .
and that's when I'm glad I learned to killfile.
SueK
Janet Baraclough .. wrote:
> The message <WtidnXy7Pba...@adelphia.com>
> from John Klausner <som...@adephia.net> contains these words:
>
>
>>The regular posters have been pretty successful in minimizing the
>>"takeover" by loonies by ignoring the idiotic threads, and I think that
>>it's wading through the garbage that tends to lower the number of actual
>>content posts.
>
>
> IME the problem is widespread in usenet atm. Regulars in a group can
> easily weed out the trash and continue to read each other's posts. The
> trouble is that new arrivals find such a flood of rubbish in almost
> every thread, it must be very difficult for them to piece together any
> sensible conversations that might be going on, and many of them probably
> lose interest in newsgroups long before they learn about killfiles.
>
>
> Janet
Matthew Beasley
"Bob Greene" <rgr...@pivot.net> wrote in message
news:40108710$1...@corp.newsgroups.com...
> My server just finally picked up this group again, and what happened?
>
> It used to be full of discussions about rural life - now all this
political,
> tree hugging drivel......
>
> Is there anybody out there?
I was wondering if it seemed quiet because I kill filed so many. I try
to make sure that I checked what else people posted to before I kill
filed them. I am interested in what others say, but with the flood, I
am resigned to kill filling those who are only here on some of the
endless drivel threads. It is amazing how many posts drop when I am
downloading headers.
Here I am waiting for something more relevant discussions to pop up....
Matthew
Fran
> Damn! All I've got here is some 26F am temps, brown
> grass and trees and ice on the dog bucket surface.
> Even the fish aren't biting.
>
> Send some of that warmth down this way, willya?
> And keep that rain to yourself, my backyard is still a lake
> from last weekends storm.
Hmmph!
All we are getting at the moment is 80 degrees F days and we are trying to
built a rather large steel shed!
I wish you lot would stop complaining about your lovely cool conditions as
all we can dream about is a few good foggy or overcast days. Currently the
heat and glare coming off the concrete is causing dehydration and headaches
and a huge desire to retire from 1 o'clock and have a big siesta!
Fran
> > On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:25:12 +0000, Jonathan Ball wrote:
>
> > > Skip Hensler and probably a few others can't read anything
> > > more thoughtful than Reader's Digest, which is to say, not thoughtful
or
> > > thought-provoking at all. They all march in brainless lockstep to
some
> > > weird, 19th century drumbeat.
> Now *there's* one group I'm proud to be considered a member of,
considering
> who the gatekeeper is.
Wow S, you've finally made it! Our elitist,credentialsit troll has finally
recognised your existence! You can finally stand tall and proud.
> Skip (or S in the Reader's Digest condensed version)
What about changing that to "ip"? I think that has a much better ring to
it.
fstops
$zj7....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:
here anybody out there?
>
> I was wondering if it seemed quiet because I kill filed so many. I try
<snip>
Yup, I'd say that about 80% of the posts are now removed before I ever see
them. I use Xnews to kill all posts from crossposters and people using
anonymous remailers; that helps a lot. Then anyone that starts or responds
to the political and religion stuff; I could see plenty of that junk
elsewhere if I wanted to. It is getting down to where I only have to kill
someone every few days, and I can still see all the good threads about hay,
pigs, goats and chickens! For some reason this group is one of the worst
that I read as far as number of entries needed, but I don't care to be
lectured by some offtopic bigmouth who thinks that I have to listen to
their opinions about politics or religion.
Bryan
JMartin
"Matthew Beasley" <beas...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:PpKQb.26766$zj7....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> Here I am waiting for something more relevant discussions to pop up....
We can always re-hash trespassers, smashed mail boxes and/or gophers :)
>
> Matthew
>
>
The Rock Garden
> Wow S, you've finally made it! Our elitist,credentialsit troll has
finally
> recognised your existence! You can finally stand tall and proud.
Yeah, a lot taller and prouder than a while back when he/she/it evidently
wrote to the group stating, right out in the open for all the world to see,
(except for the 99% who have it killfiled) that it had a lot in common with
me. How quickly they forget...
> > Skip (or S in the Reader's Digest condensed version)
>
> What about changing that to "ip"? I think that has a much better ring to
> it.
Jeeze, I suppose *you* want pictures too. :-)
Skip, (aka ip)
Matthew Beasley
"JMartin" <antar...@comwares.net> wrote in message
news:bv0pj8$uhu$0...@12.166.20.163...
Gene Seibel
--
Gene Seibel
http://pad39a.com/gene/
Jonathan Ball <jon...@whitehouse.not> wrote in message news:<5%yQb.24940$1e.1...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
fstops
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
>> We can always re-hash trespassers, smashed mail boxes and/or gophers
>:)
>> >
>> > Matthew
>> >
>> >
> Don't forget dogs at large and bright yard lights left on all night!
And wind chimes! My closest neighbor is about 1/8 mile, and they have super
loud chimes. I can't see how they can stand them bonging all night right by
their house. I guess it is art. Bryan
The Rock Garden
>Currently the
> heat and glare coming off the concrete is causing dehydration and
>headaches and a huge desire to retire from 1 o'clock and have a big
>siesta!
Hey Fran, the next time you have to take a time out to cool off check this
morning's view from our kitchen window. http://www.povn.com/rock/local.html
No, it's not pay-per-view and you don't have to register. :-)
ip
RSMEINER
>morning's view from our kitchen window. http://www.povn.com/rock/local.html
>
>No, it's not pay-per-view and you don't have to register. :-)
>
>ip
>
>
>Skip & Christy Hensler
>THE ROCK GARDEN
>Newport, WA
>http://www.povn.com/rock/
Thats a great picture on that 1st screen.
Fran
>
> >Currently the
> > heat and glare coming off the concrete is causing dehydration and
> >headaches and a huge desire to retire from 1 o'clock and have a big
> >siesta!
>
>
> Hey Fran, the next time you have to take a time out to cool off check this
> morning's view from our kitchen window.
http://www.povn.com/rock/local.html
ip, that is just beautiful! Thanks a lot. I certainly could enjoy looking
at something like that for days, but after that I think the novelty would
wear off really quickly.
Thanks for the kind offer of some coolth, but I think I might stick to above
freezing and the very occasional fall of snow. That way I can enjoy the
snow for its excitement, but still get the chores done without freezing to
death. (Today is overcast and the forecast is for below 30 C (roughly 80 F)
temps so it's looking good.)
Fran
>
> > Wow S, you've finally made it! Our elitist,credentialsit troll has
> finally
> > recognised your existence! You can finally stand tall and proud.
>
>
> Yeah, a lot taller and prouder than a while back when he/she/it evidently
> wrote to the group stating, right out in the open for all the world to
see,
> (except for the 99% who have it killfiled) that it had a lot in common
with
> me.
Oh bletch! That's enough to make one want to commit chop suey.
> > > Skip (or S in the Reader's Digest condensed version)
> >
> > What about changing that to "ip"? I think that has a much better ring
to
> > it.
>
>
> Jeeze, I suppose *you* want pictures too. :-)
Only if they have those balloons with words in them above the people.
They're the only sort of books I own.
Jonathan Ball
> Good.
Yes, good that I know. Too bad you are what you are.
AL
Not to mention gates...
:)
AL
Gene Seibel
believe everyone should be what you think they should be.
Jonathan Ball <jon...@whitehouse.not> wrote in message news:<FvXQb.27378$zj7....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
slee...@webtv.net
antar...@comwares.net (JMartin)
news:PpKQb.26766$zj7....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Here I am waiting for something more relevant discussions to pop up....
We can always re-hash trespassers, smashed mail boxes and/or gophers :)
Jena
Or we could talk some more about using urine to get rid of fire ant
nests! LoL
Ronny
staci
"The Rock Garden" <hen...@povn.com> wrote:
> "Fran" <ma...@takethisbitoutwebone.com.au> wrote
> >Currently the
> > heat and glare coming off the concrete is causing dehydration and
> >headaches and a huge desire to retire from 1 o'clock and have a big
> >siesta!
>
>
> Hey Fran, the next time you have to take a time out to cool off check this
> morning's view from our kitchen window. http://www.povn.com/rock/local.html
Thats really nice, how about this one I took last week:
http://www.pbase.com/image/25248534/medium
This one is really 'cool' (also last week):
http://www.pbase.com/image/25202068/medium
--
staci
www.pbase.com/staci
Bill Vajk
> Thats really nice, how about this one I took last week:
> http://www.pbase.com/image/25248534/medium
Gone this morning, however....
Is that Farenheit or Centigrade? LOL
(hint, they're the same at one point on both scales.)
Elmo
and is not art. That's nearly as volatile as the really bad 3 [1].
[1] The really bad 3. During my stint with the Navy, I found myself at a
British naval facility not too far from Glasgow. One of the local
sailors gave us some advice about going into pubs in Glasgow.
"If you go into a pub in Glasgow," he said, "you should remember not to
talk about politics, religion, or football. Because if it's politics
there's Labor and Tory, and if it's religion there's Protestant and
Catholic and if it's football there's Ranger and Celtic and it doesn't
matter what you say, you're wrong and they'll beat the shit out of you."
slee...@webtv.net
bill9...@hotmailDITCHTHIS.com (Bill Vajk)
Ronny says:
Aren't both scales the same at 40 below zero?
Jonathan Ball
> Nothing at all bad about it.
Yeah, there's actually quite a lot bad about it.
> Too bad you are so arrogant as to
> believe everyone should be what you think they should be.
What's arrogant about thinking you should be more open
minded, and not sneer at people who live in a different
place or eat different food from you? What I dislike
about the hick regulars of misc.rural is their Babbitry.
staci
slee...@webtv.net wrote:
> Gone this morning, however....
Oops, How about some brand new dogsledding pics?
http://www.pbase.com/staci/ch4
Going through them last night,I had more than anticipated, and had to do
some major deleting, and reorganization to keep to my quota.
> Is that Farenheit or Centigrade? LOL
> (hint, they're the same at one point on both scales.)
>
> Ronny says:
> Aren't both scales the same at 40 below zero?
>
That would be the crossover. I almost broke my camera out there, I don't
know what I was thinking going out to take pictures at 43 below.
http://climate.gi.alaska.edu/FaiData/Fai0104.html
--
staci
www.pbase.com/staci
enigma
but Jon... the author of the Atlantic article wasn't open
minded & certainly seemed to be sneering at things s/he didn't
understand (i didn't pay attention to the byline. sorry).
i agree with some of the points brought up, but it was
blatantly closedminded.
besides, i disagree that mid-PA is remotely like the midwest
or even rural New England. i haven't spent enough time in the
south or southwest to know if the shoe fits them, but i
suspect it's not accurate for those areas either. the author
is afraid of rural folk & that bias is showing badly.
lee
enigma
news:Xns947B974F...@129.250.170.91:
> And wind chimes! My closest neighbor is about 1/8 mile, and
> they have super loud chimes. I can't see how they can stand
> them bonging all night right by their house. I guess it is
> art.
that's currently being hashed in rec.gardens :)
i've nothing against tuned windchimes, but those jingle jangle
cheap things drive me nuts. even tuned chimes should be taken
down when it's very windy. good thing i don't have neighbors
close enough to have to worry about hearing those :)
lee <dog barking carries further. so does cows mooing>
Jonathan Ball
> Jonathan Ball <jon...@whitehouse.not> wrote in
> news:SybRb.27420$1e.2...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
>
>>Gene Seibel wrote:
>>
>>>Nothing at all bad about it.
>>
>>Yeah, there's actually quite a lot bad about it.
>>
>>
>>>Too bad you are so arrogant as to
>>>believe everyone should be what you think they should be.
>>
>>What's arrogant about thinking you should be more open
>>minded, and not sneer at people who live in a different
>>place or eat different food from you? What I dislike
>>about the hick regulars of misc.rural is their Babbitry.
>
>
> but Jon... the author of the Atlantic article wasn't open
> minded
He certainly was. Did you *read* the article?
> & certainly seemed to be sneering at things s/he didn't
> understand (i didn't pay attention to the byline. sorry).
No, he didn't. You *really* didn't read it.
In fact, given his open self-appraisal at the beginning
as being an urban, urbane "Blue American", I fully
*expected* him to be condescending and sneering towards
"Red Americans". By the end of the article, it was
very clear that he admired them as solid people, even
if he didn't admire their taste in a lot of things.
> i agree with some of the points brought up, but it was
> blatantly closedminded.
I think you're FAR too touchy.
> besides, i disagree that mid-PA is remotely like the midwest
> or even rural New England.
Beside the point. Anyway, it's a lot more like them
than like Washington DC or San Francisco or NYC or Los
Angeles.
> i haven't spent enough time in the
> south or southwest to know if the shoe fits them, but i
> suspect it's not accurate for those areas either. the author
> is afraid of rural folk & that bias is showing badly.
You are full of shit. The entire article was one big
massive eye-opening based on his being open minded. He
began with a lot of negative stereotypes about Red
Americans, and finished with a genuine respect for them.
Tallgrass
> In article <aeb1ce4e.04012...@posting.google.com>,
> tallgras...@earthlink.net (Tallgrass) says...
>
> > Secondly....I was bitten by a Very Big Dog last night, so have been
> > tormented the last two days with the worries of what to do with this
> > previously abused dog. Currently, I am giving him the benefit of the
> > doubt, and will not repeat my behavior which incited the biting
> > incident - the application of a choke chain collar right behind the
> > ears. Yowzer!!!!!...instant vicious (briefly) saint bernard.
>
> St. Bernards are one of the most likely breeds to bite. They take a lot
> of socialization as puppies, and are definitely not recommended for
> people who don't understand the breed. If yours was abused as a pup,
> you may never be able to trust him.
There are certain lines of saint bernards with volatile temperaments,
and this dog was 25% of them...."vicious" is the current reliable
urban legend for his gr.grandsire.
I took the dog to the vet last Friday morning, and he growled each
time Doc tried to listen to his chest and belly, respectively. I
could not bring myself to load the dog back into the van and risk my
limbs further, so I had the dog put down. He was accustomed to being
in charge, a dominant temperament, and had learned he could bite and
get away with it. Too much for me, and what I consider to be
unsaintly temperament.
Your suggestions regarding handling a canine "loaded gun, with the
safety off adn a hair trigger" are welcome. Me, I could not risk my
limbs nor face to training this dog, and I do not own a handgun
(yet!). Cell phones do not work out here, and I am thirty miles from
the sheriff's office if I wanted the dog shot on site. I thought
about owning a cattle prod, but could not comprehend why I would want
to live with a 140# ++ dog that might bite me after a collar
correction, if I stood behind him, if I tried to stuff him into a
crate, or if he encountered an oriental person (all known triggers to
growling/biting).
Also, I do not own schutzhund gear, and I am not interested in risking
limbs and digits to a dog.
As for his abusive environment....he had been out of that environment
for at least 18 months, but I think very little work had been done
with him prior to my acquiring him. It is a shame, too, for I would
have liked to add his 33 1/2" at the withers frame to my line of dogs.
I will settle for shorter sweet saints anyday, thankyouanyway.
Linda H.
DJ
> He was accustomed to being
> in charge, a dominant temperament, and had learned he could bite and
> get away with it.
Now THERE is a recipe for disaster... In a pomeranian, it's
irritating. In a Giant-class dog, an accident waiting to happen.
> I thought
> about owning a cattle prod
Actually, it could have backfired on you. Depending on what state the
dog was in when you zapped him, it could have made him attack HARDER,
as odd as that may seem to you.
> Also, I do not own schutzhund gear
That gear doesn't protect you as well as some outsiders believe ;-).
Honestly, you pretty much have to be half-nuts to put that stuff on
and tell people that own police-style trained protection dogs to
"yeah, send your dog!" ;-).
DJ
John Klausner
was the right one...but it's sad when such a decision has to be made.
Good for you, too, for not using him as a breeder, given the facts. I'm
sure you could have managed it, and worked around the problems - but I
think you were right not to do so. The breed is absolutely too big to
have to deal with temperment problems, imo. Not all breeders have the
same compunctions since in this case, at least, it appears that the
urban legend apparently had some basis in fact. Not a great way to have
it proven.
SueK
Bill Vajk
> Tallgrass wrote:
>
>> There are certain lines of saint bernards with volatile temperaments,
>> and this dog was 25% of them...."vicious" is the current reliable
>> urban legend for his gr.grandsire.
>>
>> I took the dog to the vet last Friday morning, and he growled each
>> time Doc tried to listen to his chest and belly, respectively. I
>> could not bring myself to load the dog back into the van and risk my
>> limbs further, so I had the dog put down. He was accustomed to being
>> in charge, a dominant temperament, and had learned he could bite and
>> get away with it. Too much for me, and what I consider to be
>> unsaintly temperament.
> I'm sorry that you had to make that decision. Not that I don't
> think it was the right one...but it's sad when such a decision
> has to be made. Good for you, too, for not using him as a breeder,
> given the facts. I'm sure you could have managed it, and worked
> around the problems - but I think you were right not to do so.
> The breed is absolutely too big to have to deal with temperment
> problems, imo. Not all breeders have the same compunctions since
> in this case, at least, it appears that the urban legend apparently
> had some basis in fact. Not a great way to have it proven.
> SueK
The first I heard of St. Bernard problems was in the mid 1960's in a
family I knew. The 9 year old girl was sitting on the floor next to
their dog, both watching TV, when the St. Bernard suddenly turned,
bit the little girl's cheek off, and ate it. There had never been
any warning signs of flakiness with respect to this dog.
I've always thought large dogs unsafe as household pets.
Tallgrass
>
> Ronny says:
> Aren't both scales the same at 40 below zero?
LOL!!!
My cut-off is about twenty below zero. After that, it really doesn't
matter a whale of a lot.
I lived in Madison WI during the third coldest winter on record. Too
cold for me, and I was medically housebound for part of it! Shot my
dreams of living in the North Woods all to pieces. bbbrrrrrrrr!!!
Linda H.
Jonathan Ball
Yes, that's it. The formula for converting Celsius to
Fahrenheit is
F = (C * 9) / 5 + 32
As written, that's two variables in just one equation,
so the solution is unknown. However, by definition -
"same at one point on both scales" - we know that in
this special case, F = C. We can then rewrite it as
F = (F * 9) / 5 + 32
and now we have one variable in one equation. Solving
for F, we have
F - (F * 9) / 5 = 32
(F * 5) / 5 - (F * 9) / 5 = 32
(F * -4) / 5 = 32
-4F = 160
F = -40
Conversion between C and F is trickier than conversion
between, say, miles and kilometers, or pounds and
kilograms, or gallons and liters, because the two
scales have different zero points.
It's a shame the Boob Adkins and Skippy Henslers of the
U.S. manage to keep us from switching to metric.
JMartin
"DJ" <dj_mac...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e8b05f0a.04012...@posting.google.com...
> That gear doesn't protect you as well as some outsiders believe ;-).
> Honestly, you pretty much have to be half-nuts to put that stuff on
> and tell people that own police-style trained protection dogs to
> "yeah, send your dog!" ;-).
When I was a meter reader, we had one of those guys come give us a dog
demonstration. We got to put on the gear and have the dog bite us. I
declined :)
A few months later, I was out doing disconnections for non-payment. My
company did not collect payment, so we practiced the stealth
approach...sneak up and shut the thing off.
I approached one house and noticed the dog training stuff in the yard, a
sign that merely said "Dog in yard" and the dogs looked familiar. I decided
that climbing the fence would not be a good idea.
I knocked to ask to be let in and it was the same dog guy. He let me in to
shut off his gas, but it was kind of nerve wracking. I knew he had total
control over all those dogs in his yard, but I also knew all he had to do
was decide he didn't want to get shut-off and I'd be dog food.
Jena
>
>
> DJ
Tallgrass
> I'm sorry that you had to make that decision. Not that I don't think it
> was the right one...but it's sad when such a decision has to be made.
> Good for you, too, for not using him as a breeder, given the facts. I'm
> sure you could have managed it, and worked around the problems - but I
> think you were right not to do so. The breed is absolutely too big to
> have to deal with temperment problems, imo. Not all breeders have the
> same compunctions since in this case, at least, it appears that the
> urban legend apparently had some basis in fact. Not a great way to have
> it proven.
> SueK
>
reputedly "downright nasty" dog, and he does Not have a mean bone in
his body. Totally different lines of dogs, too; West coast vs. East
coast.
Considering the person that told me about the "nasty" dog, I would
have growled at her too!
If I had been bitten in warm weather, I am sure the decedant dog would
have drawn blood, if not broken my ulnar bone. As it was, his top
canine tooth bruised me through two sweatshirts, the top one heavily
lined. I still have a superficial abrasion at the site of the tooth
impact, but the pain is beginning to subside.
Anyways....the three saints I have here now are truly saints, and the
danes' temperaments are nearly the same. Case in point, one of the
dane girls had to have some stitches out last Friday, and none of us
(Vet, assistant, me) realised that we were not holding her muzzle
while the sutures were being removed. Gracie just sat there,
nonplussed, like the good girl that she is. That was the highlight of
last Friday, for sure.
Linda H.
Larry Caldwell
> time Doc tried to listen to his chest and belly, respectively. I
> could not bring myself to load the dog back into the van and risk my
> limbs further, so I had the dog put down. He was accustomed to being
> in charge, a dominant temperament, and had learned he could bite and
> get away with it. Too much for me, and what I consider to be
> unsaintly temperament.
A sad decision, but the right one. A dangerous dog cannot be allowed to
live, and there is no reason to keep one. There are far too many sweet
dogs with wonderful dispositions being put down because they can't find
a home.
I have raised and trained a St. Bernard, and they are NOT a breed you
want to get into dominance games with. Come to think of it, that's true
of any breed.
enigma
> enigma wrote:
>> but Jon... the author of the Atlantic article wasn't open
>> minded
>
> He certainly was. Did you *read* the article?
yes, twice. both times you posted the link.
i used to read the Atlantic when i was in college, but
gradually stopped as my time got taken up elsewhere. i do see
some of the divide he speaks of , but having grown up on both
sides of the fence (one set of grandparents were very wealthy,
world travelers, a stock broker,had political friends in DC
etc & the other set was very rural, lower middle class, farmed
& worked for the railroad) i'm probably more likely to see the
commonality rather than the differences between the the reds &
the blues...
the author still seemed to be afraid of the 'unknown' outside
his safe little zone.
>
>> & certainly seemed to be sneering at things s/he didn't
>> understand (i didn't pay attention to the byline. sorry).
>
> No, he didn't. You *really* didn't read it.
>
> In fact, given his open self-appraisal at the beginning
> as being an urban, urbane "Blue American", I fully
> *expected* him to be condescending and sneering towards
> "Red Americans". By the end of the article, it was
> very clear that he admired them as solid people, even
> if he didn't admire their taste in a lot of things.
i think he needs to get out more. he really didn't get it,
but then, i don't think one can when one remains that much an
outsider.
i'll fully admit *i* don't completely understand the 'blue
American' lifestyle though., which tends to still put me at
odds with my parents.
>> besides, i disagree that mid-PA is remotely like the
>> midwest
>> or even rural New England.
>
> Beside the point. Anyway, it's a lot more like them
> than like Washington DC or San Francisco or NYC or Los
> Angeles.
well, not really beside the point. he was more looking at
'purple America' ;) it might be more like the midwest than MD,
but it's less like Iowa... (and fortunately *nothing* is like
Los Angeles than Los Angeles<g>)
lee
DJ
> I knocked to ask to be let in and it was the same dog guy. He let me in to
> shut off his gas, but it was kind of nerve wracking. I knew he had total
> control over all those dogs in his yard
Actually, if there was more than one, his control decreases
exponentially, as the dog "pack" behavior starts to kick in...
> , but I also knew all he had to do
> was decide he didn't want to get shut-off and I'd be dog food.
One dog, a reasonably athletic person can avoid, especially if
they're willing to hurt the dog... martial arts training helps a great
deal here ;-).
Two or more dogs that know each other, and, uh, to be blunt,
you're... ahem, well, you know ;-).
DJ
DJ
> The first I heard of St. Bernard problems was in the mid 1960's in a
> family I knew. The 9 year old girl was sitting on the floor next to
> their dog, both watching TV, when the St. Bernard suddenly turned,
> bit the little girl's cheek off, and ate it. There had never been
> any warning signs of flakiness with respect to this dog.
Well, unlikely, but many of the signs, only a trained person would
see. People anthropormorphize dogs too much. They're wolves we've
taken into our home, they're not little kids in a fur suit, and people
don't understand that usually. Once you understand that, you
understand alot more.
> I've always thought large dogs unsafe as household pets.
They definitely shouldn't be given to people who don't understand
dogs, no. And they should only be sold to households that will
obedience train them atleast "one or two full classes", not
necessarily a title, but a few months solid training, minimum.
There's little margin of error with big dogs. As I often say, what's
cute in a Pomeranian will have six of your best friends carrying you
to a hole in the ground with a big dog.
That said, people also have little knowledge of just how capable a
dog is. One of the fiercest dogs I ever faced, the one that knocked
all 200 pounds of me on my ass on occasion, on the Schutzhund field,
was a 60 pound german shepherd FEMALE.
The only reason that little girl survived that attack by that saint
in your example is that the saint decided that it had delivered the
appropriate level of response to whatever inadvertant slight the girl
had given it. What could she have done? Merely lying beside it if it
was startled. A absent minded scratch of the ear if it had an ear
infection. Accidentally pinching its toe when she shifted position.
The weirdest things can set them off sometimes. But it's ALWAYS
SOMETHING.
The problem is that the dog thought itself higher in the pack
hierarchy than the little girl and thus could rebuke the slight,
rather than just accept it from a superior; a common problem with
bigger dogs, and something obedience school often remedies by pairing
the dog with the LEAST authoritarian member of the household for the
training.
Ah, dogs.
I still prefer them to most people, though. City people, at least
;-).
DJ
Jonathan Ball
> Jonathan Ball <jon...@whitehouse.not> wrote in
> news:CieRb.27730$1e....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
[...]
>>>& certainly seemed to be sneering at things s/he didn't
>>>understand (i didn't pay attention to the byline. sorry).
>>
>>No, he didn't. You *really* didn't read it.
>>
>>In fact, given his open self-appraisal at the beginning
>>as being an urban, urbane "Blue American", I fully
>>*expected* him to be condescending and sneering towards
>>"Red Americans". By the end of the article, it was
>>very clear that he admired them as solid people, even
>>if he didn't admire their taste in a lot of things.
>
>
> i think he needs to get out more. he really didn't get it,
He did get it. He really did. You clearly identify
with the hick branch of your family, and because he
didn't decide to abandon where he is more comfortable
and buy into Red American more fully, you interepret
that as "bias".
Tallgrass
>
> I have raised and trained a St. Bernard, and they are NOT a breed you
> want to get into dominance games with. Come to think of it, that's true
> of any breed.
True, in part. The ankle-biters, though, can be picked up by the
scruff of the neck and stared down.
Linda H.
Larry Caldwell
janet.a...@flobalob.zetnet.co.uk (Janet Baraclough ..) says...
> The message <aeb1ce4e.04012...@posting.google.com>
> from tallgras...@earthlink.net (Tallgrass) contains these words:
> suggest is just bullying, likely to result in a nervy defensive dog
> which doesn't trust you. NOT a great way to train any breed.
Just about the finest book on dog training I ever read was "How to be
Your Dog's Best Friend", written by The Monks of New Skete, who breed
GSDs. Those guys really understand dogs. If you follow their advice,
you won't go wrong. Highly recommended. They have several books and
videos.
http://www.mirabilis.ca/archives/000291.html
Check it out.
Tallgrass
> In article <200401282...@flobalob.zetnet.co.uk>,
> janet.a...@flobalob.zetnet.co.uk (Janet Baraclough ..) says...
> > The message <aeb1ce4e.04012...@posting.google.com>
> > from tallgras...@earthlink.net (Tallgrass) contains these words:
> >
> > > Larry Caldwell <lar...@teleport.com> wrote in message
> > > news:<MPG.1a81012ee...@news.west.earthlink.net>...
> > > >
> > > > I have raised and trained a St. Bernard, and they are NOT a breed you
> > > > want to get into dominance games with. Come to think of it, that's true
> > > > of any breed.
>
> > > True, in part. The ankle-biters, though, can be picked up by the
> > > scruff of the neck and stared down.
> >
> > To a dog, staring is an act of aggression and intimidation. What you
> > suggest is just bullying, likely to result in a nervy defensive dog
> > which doesn't trust you. NOT a great way to train any breed.
>
than what is above. However...what are dominance disagreements
besides bullying, at times? I would think a staredown would be
preferrable to some other trainers methods.
> Just about the finest book on dog training I ever read was "How to be
> Your Dog's Best Friend", written by The Monks of New Skete, who breed
> GSDs. Those guys really understand dogs. If you follow their advice,
> you won't go wrong. Highly recommended. They have several books and
> videos.
>
> http://www.mirabilis.ca/archives/000291.html
>
> Check it out.
Thanks for the title. Have been meaning to get around to it, and have
put it on a lower priority. From the title, though, I have to
question whether or not I want to be my dog's best friend, or vice
versa...? The title implies equality between person and dog, which I
understand as a path to the dog testing limits until it is convinced
that it is not in charge. Perhaps the title is a misnomer...
Linda H.
DJ
> > Just about the finest book on dog training I ever read was "How to be
> > Your Dog's Best Friend", written by The Monks of New Skete, who breed
> > GSDs. Those guys really understand dogs. If you follow their advice,
> > you won't go wrong. Highly recommended. They have several books and
> > videos.
> >
> > http://www.mirabilis.ca/archives/000291.html
> >
> > Check it out.
>
> Thanks for the title. Have been meaning to get around to it, and have
> put it on a lower priority. From the title, though, I have to
> question whether or not I want to be my dog's best friend, or vice
> versa...? The title implies equality between person and dog, which I
> understand as a path to the dog testing limits until it is convinced
> that it is not in charge. Perhaps the title is a misnomer...
Um, yeah ;-). The monks have a very good grasp of the canine mind,
and they leave absolutely NO confusion, with the dog, as to who is
alpha and who is omega by the time the training is through. I, too,
have that book (isn't it "...puppy's best friend", or is it another
one of theirs?). My experience with the monks is "in the flesh", as it
were, as a friend of mine brought her german shepherd there for
re-education ;-). Came back wonderful!
DJ
John Klausner
SueK
Janet Baraclough .. wrote:
snipped
> I'm not sure if "anklebiters" meant pups or amall-breed adult dogs;
> but either way, imho it's unnecessary and counter-productive to exert
> that level of aggression or intimidation on such a small creature. There
> are better ways to teach a small dog your respective social positions,
> without hurting, cowing or humiliating it.
>
>
>>I would think a staredown would be
>>preferrable to some other trainers methods.
>
>
> In my view, as a training method it has the same disadvantage as other
> harsh training methods. They only worsen neurotic defensive and
> aggressive behaviour.
>
> Janet
Larry Caldwell
> > preferrable to some other trainers methods.
>
> harsh training methods. They only worsen neurotic defensive and
> aggressive behaviour.
Eye contact is indeed an important part of pack behavior. The mention
of it is what triggered my reference to the Monks of New Skete. They
discuss the use of eye contact in training, among a number of other
techniques. Their book approaches dog training from the viewpoint of
the dog, and explains what your body language and actions are actually
teaching the dog. They discuss methods of punishment and times when it
is appropriate.
They are the ones who taught me how to use the scruff shake and eye
contact to assert dominance over a dog. The technique speaks directly
to the dog's instincts. A dog has a deep need to know its position in
the pack, and will challenge you until it knows who is alpha. Using dog
language to communicate your dominance gets the message across without
causing defensive or aggressive behavior in the dog. Actual punishment
is only useful for aversion conditioning, it is not useful for any kind
of positive training.
A well trained dog will be alert, calm, confident, unaggressive, and
look to its pack leader (you) for cues when it finds itself in an
unfamiliar situation. That is a whole level of training beyond teaching
a dog a few tricks in obedience training.
The full title is:
_How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend: The Classic Training Manual for Dog
Owners_ by Monks of New Skete.
Seriously. Check it out. In my never-humble opinion, it is the best
book on dogs ever written.
Tallgrass
Considering I had a grooming table salesman describe how they would
literally hang birddogs to get their attention, I figured a well
controlled stare-down was pretty non-invasive.
However, heeding Janet's informed advice, I have Just purchased a copy
of the Monks' book, and look forward to training myself with it in the
next ten days or so. If their techniques can convince a german
shepherd, it is worth my while to see what they have to offer for my
giant dogs.
Linda H., listening and learning
Offbreed
A short eye
> contact can deliver the same firm calm message, but a prolonged
> stare-down is needless and demoralising.
Supposed to hold eye contact until the dog reacts in a submissive
fashion, then leave him to "think things over" a bit before
interacting further. No special hugs or treats after, just pretend
nothing happened, or you will confuse the poor guy.
The second part is a lot like disciplining children. Persistant
nagging, or prolonged punishment, are equally bad for the long term
relationship.
The Rock Garden
"Janet Baraclough .." <janet.a...@flobalob.zetnet.co.uk> wrote
> However, I don't imagine holding a small dog in the air by the scruff
> and staring it down so it has no chance to turn aside, is the kind of
> eye contact the monks use. A shake of the scruff while the dog is firmly
> on the ground, and your position is a dominant one above his, is a
> closer approximation to pack social teaching and effective. A short eye
> contact can deliver the same firm calm message, but a prolonged
> stare-down is needless and demoralising.
With all due respect, it would appear ya-all are trying to use a
one-size-fits-all approach here with no slack allowed for differences
between breeds, or personalities within the same breed.
Granted, most of my dog training experience has been with labadorks - IMHO
just about the easiest dog to train there is - but I sure wouldn't attempt
to use the same training tactics on a dominate male as I would on a
submissive dog of either sex.
In the final analysis there are just about as many dog training methods as
their are trainers, and the proof of the puddin' in in the final product,
not how you get there.
Based on many of the dog reports posted here, just about *any* training,
especially obedience training, would be a good thing...
Skip
Skip & Christy Hensler
THE ROCK GARDEN
Newport, WA
http://www.povn.com/rock/
Tallgrass
The mention
> of it is what triggered my reference to the Monks of New Skete. They
> discuss the use of eye contact in training, among a number of other
> techniques. Their book approaches dog training from the viewpoint of
> the dog, and explains what your body language and actions are actually
> teaching the dog. They discuss methods of punishment and times when it
> is appropriate.
>
> They are the ones who taught me how to use the scruff shake and eye
> contact to assert dominance over a dog. The technique speaks directly
> to the dog's instincts. A dog has a deep need to know its position in
> the pack, and will challenge you until it knows who is alpha. <<snipped>>
<<<vbeg>>>.....dare ya to give a scruff shake and eye contact to a 33
1/2 mastiff breed/saint/dane, that yesterday chomped onto your arm...
> The full title is:
>
> _How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend: The Classic Training Manual for Dog
> Owners_ by Monks of New Skete.
>
> Seriously. Check it out. In my never-humble opinion, it is the best
> book on dogs ever written.
I expect delivery of my copy of this book sometime next week. Found a
good price on a lightly used copy thru Amazon.com.
Scary stuff, trying to assert dominance over a dominant aggressive dog
that weighs 150# +/-, and has learned to bite. Trust me, very scary.
Linda H.
DJ
> Considering I had a grooming table salesman describe how they would
> literally hang birddogs to get their attention, I figured a well
> controlled stare-down was pretty non-invasive.
It's called (DJ says with disgust) "Stringing them up". The proceedure
is that you grab the dog by a CHOKE collar, and suspend it from it
until the dog almost passes out, then you release it.
It is *supposed* to teach the dog to obey you or you will kill it.
I DO NOT support, suggest, or perform that technique; I'm just
passing it on for information.
It is still popular with some of the VERY old school trainers; and
yes, it has, occasionally, killed the dog.
DJ
DJ
> <<<vbeg>>>.....dare ya to give a scruff shake and eye contact to a 33
> 1/2 mastiff breed/saint/dane, that yesterday chomped onto your arm...
As an owner of two mastiffs, I can assure you that for one, they
might not notice ;-), and to be more serious, for two, you could be
risking your life if it's not a dog you know.
I know of one dog who was later diagnosed by the Canine behaviorists
at Cornell to be "a dangerous dog" in that respect. To use drive
behavior language, he was "a submissive with NO defense flight and NO
stress indicators". What that means is that if you stared HIM in the
eye, he would be unable to run away, and would see attacking as his
only option, and would do so without warning.
Working with him, changing diet, changing vaccination and drug
regimens, he is now a "stable" dog. But he is still very much a wolf
in dog clothing...
Stare down dogs you do not know at your own risk ;-).
> > _How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend: The Classic Training Manual for Dog
> > Owners_ by Monks of New Skete.
> >
> > Seriously. Check it out. In my never-humble opinion, it is the best
> > book on dogs ever written.
Ok, they also have a puppy one. Also should be on your bookshelf!
> Scary stuff, trying to assert dominance over a dominant aggressive dog
> that weighs 150# +/-, and has learned to bite. Trust me, very scary.
I'd take ten dominant agressives over a fear biter anyday, but yes,
not for the amateur!
DJ
DJ
> With all due respect, it would appear ya-all are trying to use a
> one-size-fits-all approach here with no slack allowed for differences
> between breeds, or personalities within the same breed.
>
> Granted, most of my dog training experience has been with labadorks - IMHO
> just about the easiest dog to train there is - but I sure wouldn't attempt
> to use the same training tactics on a dominate male as I would on a
> submissive dog of either sex.
>
> In the final analysis there are just about as many dog training methods as
> their are trainers, and the proof of the puddin' in in the final product,
> not how you get there.
Well. There ya go. Wiser words were never spoken.
DJ
Not Me
|
| > Considering I had a grooming table salesman describe how they would
| > literally hang birddogs to get their attention, I figured a well
| > controlled stare-down was pretty non-invasive.
|
| is that you grab the dog by a CHOKE collar, and suspend it from it
| until the dog almost passes out, then you release it.
|
| It is *supposed* to teach the dog to obey you or you will kill it.
|
| I DO NOT support, suggest, or perform that technique; I'm just
| passing it on for information.
|
| It is still popular with some of the VERY old school trainers; and
| yes, it has, occasionally, killed the dog.
My 20 y.o. daughter had an experience with a trainer that used that method.
Her then boyfriend stepped into the discussion informing the trainer the
next time the trainer tried that technique the boy friend would pick up the
trainer by his left (private part) as a demonstration on the practical
aspects of the technique.
Jan Flora
tallgras...@earthlink.net (Tallgrass) wrote:
Then you can break it's neck by whacking the little rat against something
solid.
Jan, who won't let a dog under 50# into her home
Michael
"Jan Flora" <snow...@xyz.net> wrote in message
news:snowshoe-DD13FD...@prawn.nwc.acsalaska.net...
I used to think the same way until our latest dog wandered up about a year
and a half ago. My wife was getting the leaves out of the pool when Buddy
came up to the fence and sat down. She walked back to the house and he
followed her. She got me and showed me the dog. We had lost our German
Shepard a few months before this so we had been looking for another Shepard.
My comments were none too kind, something along the lines of the barn cat
will kick his butt and when we have a toy farm we'll have a toy dog.. But
then he bounded up to me, licked my hand and caught my eye. I was sunk. He
is a mix of Pomeranian and maybe Golden Retriever.
I looked at his paws, he wasn't going to get any bigger. He weighed eleven
pounds at the vets that afternoon. That "free" dog cost me about $125 that
day. He now is well fed, spoiled rotten and weighs all of thirteen pounds.
Absolutely beautiful dog that is fearless, I say he has twelve and half
pounds of heart. I particularly like the way he sits off to the side, after
getting in his required barking, and very quietly growls at the teenage boys
coming to pick up my daughter for dates.
Only small dog I've had since I was a kid but now he sleeps with my wife and
I most nights. Still looking for a Shepard though.
RSMEINER
>and a half ago. My wife was getting the leaves out of the pool when Buddy
>came up to the fence and sat down. She walked back to the house and he
>followed her. She got me and showed me the dog. We had lost our German
>Shepard a few months before this so we had been looking for another Shepard.
>My comments were none too kind, something along the lines of the barn cat
>will kick his butt and when we have a toy farm we'll have a toy dog.. But
>then he bounded up to me, licked my hand and caught my eye. I was sunk. He
>is a mix of Pomeranian and maybe Golden Retriever.
>
>I looked at his paws, he wasn't going to get any bigger. He weighed eleven
>pounds at the vets that afternoon. That "free" dog cost me about $125 that
>day. He now is well fed, spoiled rotten and weighs all of thirteen pounds.
>Absolutely beautiful dog that is fearless, I say he has twelve and half
>pounds of heart. I particularly like the way he sits off to the side, after
>getting in his required barking, and very quietly growls at the teenage boys
>coming to pick up my daughter for dates.
>
>Only small dog I've had since I was a kid but now he sleeps with my wife and
>I most nights. Still looking for a Shepard though.
>
We have 1 small (25#) and 1 medium (60#) dogs. Great dogs.
Small 1 is definitly my wifes dog. Larger 1 prefers me. Works
out real good that way.
Speaking of Shepards. I met a sweetheart of one last weekend while
making a hay run. Small, mostly white with a little grey. Nice nice
pooch. Friendly and gentle as could be.
We had a shepard for awhile. Loved me, hated my wife. That didn't
work out to well. Luckily, it liked kids so it ended up on a farm with
a bunch of little boys to play with.
DJ
> Then you can break it's neck by whacking the little rat against something
> solid.
>
> Jan, who won't let a dog under 50# into her home
The thing I hate is that when I first saw a "real live mastiff" I
thought "My god, what a massive animal!" and now that I've been living
with them so long, they look like 'normal dogs' and everything else
looks small.
I once was giving a stranger's rottweiler a good scratch behind the
ear, and commented "What a nice little puppy! How old is he?"
"He's six."
"Oh. Sorry."
Yeah, dem little dogs... "rat on a rope", a friend of mine calls
them.
DJ
The Rock Garden
> Yeah, dem little dogs... "rat on a rope", a friend of mine calls
> them.
Back when my recently retired game warden hunting buddy still had a job he
stopped by one day and we swapped cougar stories. He mentioned that he had
just been up-county investigating a cougar predation call where the cat had
come up on the porch of a semi-rural house, killed the dog, and laid right
there and ate it.
His punch line; "It didn't matter none though, it was just a little yappy
dog."
jambalaya
> My server just finally picked up this group again, and what happened?
>
> It used to be full of discussions about rural life - now all this political,
> tree hugging drivel......
>
> Is there anybody out there?
The façade was blown away; that's what happened.
Bill Vajk
> Bob Greene wrote:
When no one is actually watching, there's nobody
here.
Tallgrass
> When no one is actually watching, there's nobody
> here.
So.....if a tree falls in the forest, or the list....?????
!!!!!
Linda H.
Bill Vajk
> !!!!!
> Linda H.
Glad you enjoyed it.